Yet another example of why we are closer to the Lions than the Patriots

[paintrain]

In an offseason where it's almost glaringly obvious that we need a smarter, better football mind in the front office, a team with recent championship success has made a smart move to bolster their organization.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3864253

Oh the pain, the pain, the insufferable pain.

[dieselfan44]

Yeah that is a good move by NE....

[HitStickTaylor21]

I still have no idea why the Titans let Reese leave

[That Redskins Fan]

I wouldn't pursue Floyd Reese he put the Titans in cap problems as well. However anyone is better than vinny

[ThePreciating]

In an offseason where it's almost glaringly obvious that we need a smarter, better football mind in the front office, a team with recent championship success has made a smart move to bolster their organization.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3864253

Oh the pain, the pain, the insufferable pain.

See Jason Campbell. See Vince Young. Tennessee's number one WR - Justin Gage. Redskins number one - Santana Moss. I'd take Portis and Betts over Lendale and Chris Johnson. Tennessee is better than us on the O-line and D-line, that's about it.

I'm not saying we're perfect, but our front office is on par with Tennessee, and certainly light years beyond Detroit.

If you're going to keep using your mouth to insult the team you supposedly support, then just shut it.

[Thinking Skins]

another pessimistic thread with no analysis provided

:doh:

[corsair_joe]

I wouldn't pursue Floyd Reese he put the Titans in cap problems as well. However anyone is better than vinny

The redskins not pursuing a guy because he created cap problems? LOL.

[ThePreciating]

Yet another example of how our fan base has deteriorated. You'd think we're in NYC.

[zskins]

Oh the pain, the pain, the insufferable pain.

Maybe you should try this instead:;)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01242/acupuncture_1242729c.jpg

[jthor99]

Belicheck makes every single decision in that organization, so I'm not sure how this some genius hire. I still believe that Pioli will fail in KC because of this. Belicheck is the genius behind all of the drafting and FA aquistions

[IbleedBnG83]

I'd take Portis and Betts over Lendale and Chris Johnson.

Then you sir are on drugs:doh:

[santana_4_prez]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Redskins 8 wins
9
10
Patriots 11 wins
12
13
14
15
16

See...we're closer to the Patriots! :)

[Thinking Skins]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Redskins 8 wins
9
10
Patriots 11 wins
12
13
14
15
16

See...we're closer to the Patriots! :)


I like that one!!!!

[paintrain]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Redskins 8 wins
9
10
Patriots 11 wins
12
13
14
15
16

See...we're closer to the Patriots! :)

Grr, me no like math. :cool:

[BAFGA]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Redskins 8 wins
9
10
Patriots 11 wins
12
13
14
15
16

See...we're closer to the Patriots! :)


Wins in the last 8 games of the season

Lions 0 wins
1
Redskins 2 wins
3
4
5
Patriots 6 wins
7
8


See...we're closer to the Lions! :D

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

the point is, a ton of great football minds have been on the table for purchase this offseason and were sticking with the dumbest man on the planet as a "GM".

and we are closer to the lions than the patriots. we wallow in mediocrity constantly. at least the lions get to blow it up and start over. were not even capable of doing that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

and if anyone wants the sad truth:

the lions have been to the playoffs more times since 1992 than the redskins have.

[BAFGA]

the point is, a ton of great football minds have been on the table for purchase this offseason and were sticking with the dumbest man on the planet as a "GM".

and we are closer to the lions than the patriots. we wallow in mediocrity constantly. at least the lions get to blow it up and start over. were not even capable of doing that.

But but but but.....we're only a couple of players away from being a super bowl contender. We don't need to blow it up. All we need are Haynesworth, Gross and Sproles and we'll win a bunch of games next year. Make it happen, Vinny and Danny!

/sarcasm

[STBonecrusher21]

But but but but.....we're only a couple of players away from being a super bowl contender. We don't need to blow it up. All we need are Haynesworth, Gross and Sproles and we'll win a bunch of games next year. Make it happen, Vinny and Danny!

/sarcasm

How different are the Cardinals this year from last year?

[BAFGA]

How different are the Cardinals this year from last year?

1 game different (9-7 vs. 8-8 last year). Only difference is their division collapsed on themselves and then they got hot in the playoffs. One game change in our division might not help.

[STBonecrusher21]

1 game different (9-7 vs. 8-8 last year). Only difference is their division collapsed on themselves and then they got hot in the playoffs. One game change in our division might not help.

What about personnel?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

How different are the Cardinals this year from last year?


the cardinals have something we dont. they have a dominant side of the ball: their offense.

the cardinals are a better version of the saints. insane offense with a questionable defense. their defense has turned it up a notch in the post season, but theyve got talent on that D. the skins arent dominant anywhere, hence they wallow in average land.

and dont tell me about our 4th ranked defense that cant stop anybody in the 4th quarter and most of our stops come from other teams dropping passes.

[STBonecrusher21]

the cardinals have something we dont. they have a dominant side of the ball: their offense.

They had the same team last year.

In my mind, anything can happen for any given team, in any given season.

:2cents:

[KDawg]

I'd take Portis and Betts over Lendale and Chris Johnson.

Seriously?

You'd take:

342 carries, 1487 yards 9 TD
+
61 carries 206 yards 1 TD

Totaling: 403 carries 1,693 yards, 4.2 ypc, 10 TD

over

200 car 773 yards 15 TD
+
251 car 1228 yards 9 TD

Totaling: 451 carries, 2,001 yards, 4.4 ypc, 24 TD?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

They had the same team last year.

In my mind, anything can happen for any given team, in any given season.

:2cents:


yes they did. they had a dominant offense last year, it just happened to be MORE dominant this year. the steelers had the same team last year and lost in the wild card round to the jags. the cardinals had a rookie head coach last year as well. they are a good football team, and they have a dominant offense.

again, the redskins do not have a single dominant anything.

[STBonecrusher21]

yes they did. they had a dominant offense last year, it just happened to be MORE dominant this year. the steelers had the same team last year and lost in the wild card round to the jags. the cardinals had a rookie head coach last year as well. they are a good football team, and they have a dominant offense.

again, the redskins do not have a single dominant anything.

http://extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=279079

Maybe we should take this guys advice afterall.

:D

[jthor99]

the cardinals have something we dont. they have a dominant side of the ball: their offense.

the cardinals are a better version of the saints. insane offense with a questionable defense. their defense has turned it up a notch in the post season, but theyve got talent on that D. the skins arent dominant anywhere, hence they wallow in average land.

and dont tell me about our 4th ranked defense that cant stop anybody in the 4th quarter and most of our stops come from other teams dropping passes.

First off, you don't end up 4th in the league in defense simply by the other team dropping passes. Anyone who honestly believes that doesn't know much about football.

You mention the Cards have something we don't. How about a 2 time MVP and Superbowl Champion QB? They also have arguably 2 of the top 10 WR in the National Football League. If there offense was so "dominant" then they wouldn't of went 9-7 (and they wouldn't of also lost to the lowley Redskins as you are making them out to be).

The Cards simply got hot at the right time. Do I feel they are the best team in the NFC? Absoutley not, but that's why there is playoff games.

[Area51]

See Jason Campbell. See Vince Young. Tennessee's number one WR - Justin Gage. Redskins number one - Santana Moss. I'd take Portis and Betts over Lendale and Chris Johnson. Tennessee is better than us on the O-line and D-line, that's about it.

I'm not saying we're perfect, but our front office is on par with Tennessee, and certainly light years beyond Detroit.

If you're going to keep using your mouth to insult the team you supposedly support, then just shut it.

I'm so with this dude.

I haven't been on this site in what seems like forever (which mean probably like a week or so) and there is non-stop bitching about the same old stupid things.

News flash: ONLY NEW ENGLAND IS CLOSE TO NEW ENGLAND. EVERYONE (inlcuding Peyton Manning and the Colts) are NOT close to being New England.

By the way, I think way too many people are riding The Patriots nuts, and they don't deserve it. We know for a fact that those bastards have been cheating since there bull**** dynasty began (in which they won all 3 SBs by somehow playing great defense against teams like the Rams in the first half of those SBs, only to barely hold on after halftime [when the opposing offensive coaches adjusted to NE knowing all their ****ing plays] to win by three points.

Yea, those damn Patriots. Their FO is so frickin' awesome that they KNEW that they would be able to land a HOF, all-time great QB in round 6. So instead of wasting one of their earlier picks on the future HOF'er, they were just ****ing with the rest of the league, and laughed their ass off at every other team when they picked him up in the 6th round.

That Bellichick is a pretty big jokester, I tell ya. Picking up scrubs like Adrian Klemm and JR Redmond in the first day was Bill Bellichick's way of ****ing with the rest of the league. :doh:


2 46 Adrian Klemm T Hawaii
3 76 J.R. Redmond RB Arizona State
4 127 Greg Randall T Michigan State
5 141 Dave Stachelski TE Boise State
5 161 Jeff Marriott -- Missouri
6 187 Antwan Harris CB Virginia
6 199 Tom Brady QB Michigan
6 201 David Nugent DT Purdue
7 226 Casey Tisdale -- New Mexico
7 239 Patrick Pass RB Georgia

[Thinking Skins]

First off, you don't end up 4th in the league in defense simply by the other team dropping passes. Anyone who honestly believes that doesn't know much about football.


aah, the old "you don't know football" insult.

Don't you all ever come up with some new stuff?

[jthor99]

aah, the old "you don't know football" insult.

Don't you all ever come up with some new stuff?

I could think of plenty of other words to use.

[Cpt.Chaos47]

Yeah Floyd Reese is such a genuis he sat at ESPN for 2 years shamelessly begging for a job with an NFL team.

[Thinking Skins]

Yeah Floyd Reese is such a genuis he sat at ESPN for 2 years shamelessly begging for a job with an NFL team.

Reminds me of what Vinny did!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

First off, you don't end up 4th in the league in defense simply by the other team dropping passes. Anyone who honestly believes that doesn't know much about football.

You mention the Cards have something we don't. How about a 2 time MVP and Superbowl Champion QB? They also have arguably 2 of the top 10 WR in the National Football League. If there offense was so "dominant" then they wouldn't of went 9-7 (and they wouldn't of also lost to the lowley Redskins as you are making them out to be).

The Cards simply got hot at the right time. Do I feel they are the best team in the NFC? Absoutley not, but that's why there is playoff games.


first of all, our defense is so overrated its not even funny. were a good run stopping team, but teams can throw on us when they need to. if youd like to get out the 4th quarter stats for our defense, i bet theyd be pretty awful. i can site the browns and 2nd eagles game as proof. we cannot generate turnovers, and we cannot get to the QB ever. we were bottom 5 in both turnovers and sacks. yes its nice that teams have trouble moving the ball on us at times, but unless our offense plays lights out, no mistake football, our defense just isnt that good.

secondly, youre right, the cardinals have a good quarterback, and we have a bad one. and their WR are light years better than ours. moving along.

third, i agree the cards got hot at the right time, but they have more talent on both sides of the ball than we do. and frankly, wisenhunt is a ballsy coach, and we have a uncreative boring pansy of a coach who lets players mock him openly with no consequences.

[thedevilhimself]

aah, the old "you don't know football" insult.

Don't you all ever come up with some new stuff?

The "you don't know football" to me didn't seem to be insult than a statement of fact .

If you say something like ...

"and dont tell me about our 4th ranked defense that cant stop anybody in the 4th quarter and most of our stops come from other teams dropping passes. "


then no you don't know football .. :silly:

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

guys, hate to break it to you. our d is overrated as hell. notice how the ravens, steelers, and eagles are all ranked in the top 3 and their coordinators are well known, they run high pressure schemes, and everyone talks about how powerful they are? and somehow were ranked right next to them, yet nobody cares about ours?

our D is extremely overrated. and i watch a great deal of football. seems like the homers are disillusioned about our defense.

[Thinking Skins]

guys, hate to break it to you. our d is overrated as hell. notice how the ravens, steelers, and eagles are all ranked in the top 3 and their coordinators are well known, they run high pressure schemes, and everyone talks about how powerful they are? and somehow were ranked right next to them, yet nobody cares about ours?

our D is extremely overrated. and i watch a great deal of football. seems like the homers are disillusioned about our defense.

You had it right when you said "the skins arent dominant anywhere, hence they wallow in average land." Thats exactly how I feel. And I feel that part of the problem is taht we are so caught up in hopes that a FIRST YEAR COACH will be a super bowl winner that we get into a perennial cycle of rebuilding and hoping.

I'd just like to see us do what most other teams in the league do, and thats give their coaches time to actually play games and prove whether or not they are a good coach.

All these people saying after one season that Zorn isn't a good coach are just blowing my mind. But I guess everybody's entitled to their own opinion.

[elkabong82]

guys, hate to break it to you. our d is overrated as hell. notice how the ravens, steelers, and eagles are all ranked in the top 3 and their coordinators are well known, they run high pressure schemes, and everyone talks about how powerful they are? and somehow were ranked right next to them, yet nobody cares about ours?

our D is extremely overrated. and i watch a great deal of football. seems like the homers are disillusioned about our defense.

Our D is overrated in terms of they are ranked 4th but not really a top 5 D. Hwever, they are indeed a top 10 unit, and while they aren't as great as their overall ranking would suggest, they certainly are one of the best defenses in the league, and you are trying very hard to suggest otherwise. Not everything is very good or very bad, there is middle ground. The Skins D is good, but they are not elite. If they make some good pick-ups on the DL, specifically at DT, in the offseason then they could move up.

I personally think this team is closer to the Pats than they are the Lions simply because they had a real shot at the playoffs and the Lions were nowhere near that. We do need to get dominant on one side of the ball, and this offseason will be very important in keeping us headed in that direction. I guess I simply prefer to give Zorn more than 1 year before saying he can't cut it. For how much crap some of you give Snyder some of you don't show anymore patience than he has in the past.

[bubba9497]

guys, hate to break it to you. our d is overrated as hell. notice how the ravens, steelers, and eagles are all ranked in the top 3 and their coordinators are well known, they run high pressure schemes, and everyone talks about how powerful they are? and somehow were ranked right next to them, yet nobody cares about ours?



please explain how that makes the defense overrated?

because the media doesn't slurp up to Blanche like the truly overrated Eagle's Jimmy Johnson?

:doh:

The defense is not overrated, to be overrated you have to first be rated highly, which you above state plainly doesn't happen.

Our defense is very good. but just like every defense outside of Pittsburgh, it has it's flaws...

ours is sacks and turnovers...... while sacks alone don't equal wins, they do help produce turnovers, which studies show do win ball games (or lose them depending on which side of the ball your on)

[MLSKINS]

Our defense is very good. but just like every defense outside of Pittsburgh, it has it's flaws...



:no:

Pittsburgh flaw is their secondary. If they don't get to Warner with those blitzes itsova (new word I am trying out, lol).

[Califan007]

Wins in the last 8 games of the season

Lions 0 wins
1
Redskins 2 wins
3
4
5
Patriots 6 wins
7
8


See...we're closer to the Lions! :D
Yeah, but...!!

Wins in the first 8 games of the season

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
Patriots 5 wins
Redskins 6 wins
7
8

Damn...for awhile there, not only were the Skins closer to the Patriots than to the Lions, they surpassed them as well! lol :cool:

[hail2skins]

because the media doesn't slurp up to Blanche like the truly overrated Eagle's Jimmy Johnson?

Gotta agree with bubba here........the Eagles D is very overrated. Loved the stellar job against the Cardinals a few weeks ago, including the 7-8 minute drive the Cards had for the GWTD.

Their D may have been good in the earlier part of the decade, but has been living on reputation for too long.

And as for our D.....if not for that unit, the whole of Gibbs 2.0 would've been a joke.

[ThePreciating]

:no:

Pittsburgh flaw is their secondary. If they don't get to Warner with those blitzes itsova (new word I am trying out, lol).

Ozay! Are you sleeping on Ryan Clark and Troy Polamalu? Get serious.

[fansince62]

Tennessee is better than us on the O-line and D-line, that's about it.



that's about it?!!!!!!!

[fansince62]

Yeah, but...!!

Wins in the first 8 games of the season

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
Patriots 5 wins
Redskins 6 wins
7
8

Damn...for awhile there, not only were the Skins closer to the Patriots than to the Lions, they surpassed them as well! lol :cool:

and we all know: it's where you start...not where you finish...that matters most!!!

[RFKFedEx]

Reminds me of what Vinny did!

I doubt Vinny even bothered to beg for work given his track record over the five year span leading up to Marty's arrival in Ashburn. Running the Niners aground in cap hell, and then piloting the zeppelin that was the fortune 500 Redskins of Y2K would humble most GMs from faxing their resumees for a head personel job.

Vinny remains unemployable elsewhere at the NFL level, just like Matt Millen was in Detroit. Millen had years of failure, yet he kept his job just like Vinny.

Can anyone here imagine something as silly as a member of the Patriots FO hosting a radio show and taking weekly phone calls from a hype driven clown like Mel Kiper?

I say our FO is closer to the Lions despite our record.

:rant:

[Thinking Skins]

I doubt Vinny even bothered to beg for work given his track record over the five year span leading up to Marty's arrival in Ashburn. Running the Niners aground in cap hell, and then piloting the zeppelin that was the fortune 500 Redskins of Y2K would humble most GMs from faxing their resumees for a head personel job.

Vinny remains unemployable elsewhere at the NFL level, just like Matt Millen was in Detroit. Millen had years of failure, yet he kept his job just like Vinny.

Can anyone here imagine something as silly as a member of the Patriots FO hosting a radio show and taking weekly phone calls from a hype driven clown like Mel Kiper?

I say our FO is closer to the Lions despite our record.

:rant:

But the Patriots hired a guy off ESPN just like we did. Maybe they learned something from us....

[Chiefinonhaze]

The lions were 0-16. The Patriots were 11-5. We were 8-8. I'd say we're clloser to the Patriots than the Lions.

[RFKFedEx]

But the Patriots hired a guy off ESPN just like we did. Maybe they learned something from us....

This could be a trend.:silly:

ESPN must have been starving for talent when Vinny hit the market or else he's lost a lot of his media skills in the 7 years he was away from the microphones.

Does anyone remember what Vinny did at ESPN, or when he was on?
Was it ESPN, II, the News? It sure as hell wasn't ESPN Classic.

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

This could be a trend.:silly:

ESPN must have been starving for talent when Vinny hit the market or else he's lost a lot of his media skills in the 7 years he was away from the microphones.

Does anyone remember what Vinny did at ESPN, or when he was on?
Was it ESPN, II, the News? It sure as hell wasn't ESPN Classic.It was ESPN 8 - The Ocho.

http://www.flickfilosopher.com/flickfilos/art/espn8.jpg

Home of the World Dodgeball Championships!

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mo/dodgeball250.jpg

[Loyal2Washington]

The lions were 0-16. The Patriots were 11-5. We were 8-8. I'd say we're clloser to the Patriots than the Lions.
The Lions were 0-8 down the stretch. The Pats were 6-2. I'd say we were closer to the Lions when it mattered.

[Chiefinonhaze]

The Lions were 0-8 down the stretch. The Pats were 6-2. I'd say we were closer to the Lions when it mattered.


Oh I See, your using 8 games to summarize our franchise? :rolleyes:

We have made runs before "when it matters.' We didn't this year. Some of that had to do with a rookie coach going through his growing pains. Some of it had to do with an aging line, and Campbell not making the right reads.

The Cardinals didn't exacly light it up "when it matters" either. They finished the season 4-4, with a few blowout losses, and are now in the Superbowl.

We were one or two games behind a playoff spot this year. We weren't exactly the lions. We have had two playoff appearances in the last 4 years. We have three super bowl trophies. We are FAR from the Lions.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

jim johnson is overrated how? because they have a legit pass rush? because they get turnovers? because he is a blitz machine that can confuse the hell out of a QB? and that the eagles D is consistently known for pressure no matter who is on that line? their secondary is beastly, their big problem is their play at LB.

id take trent cole or bunkley over anyone on our line anyday of the week.

and i hate the eagles.


and theres a reason these D coordinators get "slurped". these guys arent pretty dudes making plays and wearing bling and saying cute things to the media or anything that gets you to a probowl. these are old crusty dudes who just know how to make Ds work with the talent they have, and they dominate.


i do agree with elkabong, our D isnt elite, and i never said were terrible, but to think we are the "4th ranked" defense in the league is incorrect IMO.

[SkinsFTW]

Our defense is ranked 4th? In what? Yards? Did us having more yards against the pathetic Rams mean we won the game?

Our team was 6th in points allowed. That might also have something to do with our offense scoring the 5th fewest points in the league. The Lions scored more points than we did. Every team knew that all they had to do was score 20 on us and they'd win 90% of the time.

[BAFGA]

Oh I See, your using 8 games to summarize our franchise? :rolleyes:

We have made runs before "when it matters.' We didn't this year. Some of that had to do with a rookie coach going through his growing pains. Some of it had to do with an aging line, and Campbell not making the right reads.

The Cardinals didn't exacly light it up "when it matters" either. They finished the season 4-4, with a few blowout losses, and are now in the Superbowl.

We were one or two games behind a playoff spot this year. We weren't exactly the lions. We have had two playoff appearances in the last 4 years. We have three super bowl trophies. We are FAR from the Lions.

Please don't bring up the 3 super bowl trophies when talking about this era. That's like Browns fans talking about their dominant decade of the 50's that happened before a lot of their fans were even born. The Redskins super bowl trophies were won under a different regime with a different owner in a different era. Don't fall for Snyderatto flashing those trophies in press conferences like they personally had a hand in them. They didn't.

We were all but eliminated from a playoff spot with 3 weeks to go this year. I would say that's far from being close to a playoff spot. If not for getting lucky against Philadelphia on the last game of the season we would have finished 1-7 in the last 8. That's pretty close to the Lions. As far as "using 8 games to summarize our franchise": when it's the last 8 games that is a TOTALLY VALID ARGUMENT. As someone said in this thread, it's not how you start, it's how you finish. The Redskins finished poorly.

The Cardinals didn't light it up "when it mattered", but they didn't have to, either. They had the good fortune of having their division collapse around itself and were able to coast to a playoff spot really really early. They were exactly 1 game better than they were last year. They just got hot at the right time "in the playoffs". As far as the Redskins are concerned, this current regime is satisfied with rallying around slogans in order to scramble into the 6th seed of the playoffs and not do much when they get there. That's not being successful, that's being mediocre.

If you think everything is hunky-dory with this franchise, I admire that you see everything through burgundy and gold colored glasses and enjoy drinking the Snyderatto Kool-Aid.. Don't wake up from your dream, because reality is a nightmare.

[SkinsFTW]

Actually the Lions got rid of Millen.

We still have 2 of these running the team:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/dos0711/head_up_your_ass2.jpg

And they have been at it LONGER than Detroit put up with Millen.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Maybe you should try this instead:;)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01242/acupuncture_1242729c.jpg

ok, i didn't need to see that!!! :silly:

[paloosa]

I agree we need have some better people in the FO but Cerrato is not all that bad. I feel we just need other guys to help consult and have an eye for talented players. You can only do so much with what you have available to you. With only 3, 4 or 5 picks a year it is very hard to draft any quality players. The problem is we trade our picks away for a guy that is good for one or two years, draft need players in the late rounds who are projects at best, and hope that the rubber bands and band aids will hold together long enough to win a Super Bowl but the only last long enough for us to get to the playoffs or halfway through the season. Then the wheels are bald and no more options available. Until we have two or three good full drafts with all our draft picks is when we will start seeing results.

[RFKFedEx]

The problem is we trade our picks away

Late round picks have been the problem over the last deacade.

Guys like Chris Horton don't warrant having their jerseys in the display windows of the Redskins stores the day after the draft. Horton also didn't need a glitzy intro presser in Ashburn where he could stand behind our irrelevant SB trophies in a $3k suit and peanut size diamonds in his ears.

Late round picks require scouting to discover their talent potential. Once a team drafts a late round pick the player requires development and coaching.

None of the above are fun for Danny and that's why we don't usually keep our day two draft picks.

Hopefully the culture is starting to change if last years offseason was any indication.

[cjrugger]

Give me a break dude, if the Skins signed this guy than everyone would bash him
"He drafted Vince Young"
"He drafted Pacman"
"Whats the difference, Vinny is still in charge"

Give it a rest with all the negativity. This board is becoming unbearable

[Chief skin]

dannydumbass and vinny know it all, great football minds there record over the last 10 YEARS speaks for itself a 48 percent winning statistic. IMPRESSIVE

[Horatio]

This could be a trend.:silly:

ESPN must have been starving for talent when Vinny hit the market or else he's lost a lot of his media skills in the 7 years he was away from the microphones.

Does anyone remember what Vinny did at ESPN, or when he was on?
Was it ESPN, II, the News? It sure as hell wasn't ESPN Classic.

He wasn't even on TV. He was answering emails on ESPN's website. Not a single NFL team even tried to interview him...only Snyder is stupid enough to keep hiring him.

[The Full Monty]

I wouldn't pursue Floyd Reese he put the Titans in cap problems as well. However anyone is better than vinny
Reese built that team with draft picks. Bud Adams is a cheapskate.

[RFKFedEx]

He wasn't even on TV. He was answering emails on ESPN's website.

It's not hard to see why Vinny and his bug eyes weren't cut out for ESPN TV. He's not much of a radio personality either considering ESPN already had Mel Kiper to guest spot on radio for subjects concerning the draft, etc.

Answering emails couldn't have fetched more than $80K a year for Vinny.

[ECU-ALUM]

dannydumbass and vinny know it all, great football minds there record over the last 10 YEARS speaks for itself a 48 percent winning statistic. IMPRESSIVE

I remember the days when 10-6 was a bad year...now if the team goes 10-6 most people are dancing in the streets.

[MassSkinsFan]

Belicheck makes every single decision in that organization, so I'm not sure how this some genius hire. I still believe that Pioli will fail in KC because of this. Belicheck is the genius behind all of the drafting and FA aquistions

Not quite - he's pretty hands-on in a lot of areas, but does do some delegation. The other thing is the "secret weapon:" Ernie Adams (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=adams). Few people talk about Ernie when they look at the success of the Pats.

Deep down I harbor the hope that Snyderatto will lure the Bill/Ernie duo away from the Kraft family. I also sometimes wish that I could fly.

:silly:

[pjfootballer]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
Redskins 8 wins
9
10
Patriots 11 wins
12
13
14
15
16

See...we're closer to the Patriots! :)

SuperBowl wins since 2002

Lions/Redskins 0 wins
1
2
Patriots 3 wins
4
5

We're closer to the Lions.


I remember the days when 10-6 was a bad year...now if the team goes 10-6 most people are dancing in the streets.

See my sig for the current state of our fanbase.

[Thinking Skins]

I remember the days when 10-6 was a bad year...now if the team goes 10-6 most people are dancing in the streets.

People pray for 10-6 because normally 10-6 is an improvement over the previous year. In the 80's people rolled their eyes at such a record because we were perennial division champs. Its different times. But we always look for improvement. If you think fans should be rooting for us to improve from 8-8 to 14-2, then I really question what you're drinking.

[MassSkinsFan]

In an offseason where it's almost glaringly obvious that we need a smarter, better football mind in the front office, a team with recent championship success has made a smart move to bolster their organization.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3864253

Oh the pain, the pain, the insufferable pain.

I think we could do something similar. There is a former Redskin out there who was with our 1991 SB Champion team. A guy with past GM experience in the NFL. Someone who could be groomed to someday fill Vinny's shoes. A name synonymous with tough play:


Matt Millen <sorry - I couldn't resist this> :silly:

Maybe it's time for some extreme protest like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/LionsFans.jpg

[MassSkinsFan]

Wins on a Tuesday Night national telecast:

Lions/Redskins/Patriots - 0

MY GOD we're just as good as the Patriots and as awful as the Lions!!!

[ECU-ALUM]

People pray for 10-6 because normally 10-6 is an improvement over the previous year. In the 80's people rolled their eyes at such a record because we were perennial division champs. Its different times. But we always look for improvement. If you think fans should be rooting for us to improve from 8-8 to 14-2, then I really question what you're drinking.

It's not even that...I would like to see some improvement..that this team is building on something to be a consistent winner...not this Russian Roulette junk year-in year-out.

Where we have no clue what to expect with every year.

[ECU-ALUM]

See my sig for the current state of our fanbase.

Very accurate...:(

[Thinking Skins]

It's not even that...I would like to see some improvement..that this team is building on something to be a consistent winner...not this Russian Roulette junk year-in year-out.

Where we have no clue what to expect with every year.

Actually, I think we do. Last year we had a quiet offseason and had a year that was pretty similar to the 2007 year - lots of close games decided late in the 4th quarter. If we do the same thing again in 2009, I'd expect a similar year this upcoming year.

But what we'd be doing by keeping Zorn and not looking for every quick fix is building on what we have and developing our talent here. What this builds is consistency. Maybe consistency is not enough to get us to the Super Bowl, but you've got to walk before you can run. Right now we're barely past crawling and people are saying that because we didn't make the conference championship this year Zorn should be fired.

Its like fans are setting unreal expectations on our team because they were so spoiled by the 70s and 80s. I know some people don't like to hear this, but sometimes it takes time to build a team.

[ECU-ALUM]

Its like fans are setting unreal expectations on our team because they were so spoiled by the 70s and 80s. I know some people don't like to hear this, but sometimes it takes time to build a team.

I agree with you...it's just at times this franchise under the current regime hasn't shown the patience to do the job right...and that could be a big reason why we see the inconsistency out of this franchise year in year out up to this point.

Who knows maybe they might start to show some patience and do it right ?

[Califan007]

and we all know: it's where you start...not where you finish...that matters most!!!
Ah, the need to be negative has yet again caused an ES member to completely miss the humor in a post :thumbsup:...

[Califan007]

I agree with you...it's just at times this franchise under the current regime hasn't shown the patience to do the job right...and that could be a big reason why we see the inconsistency out of this franchise year in year out up to this point.

Who knows maybe they might start to show some patience and do it right ?
I think they have been showing patience for at least the last two years. But unfortunately too many fans see that patience as incompetence.

[Califan007]

Oh I See, your using 8 games to summarize our franchise? :rolleyes:

We have made runs before "when it matters.' We didn't this year.
That's the irritating part lol...when we made those runs, too many people here downplayed those runs as insignificant. "We needed a 5 game winning streak to make the playoffs!"..."We needed a 4-game winning streak spurred by the death of a player to make the playoffs!".

Funny how during those seasons the lack of early success showed how miserable the team REALLY was, and the late season success was rendered irrelevant when assessing the team. This year, the early success is rendered irrelevant when assessing the team.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I think they have been showing patience for at least the last two years. But unfortunately too many fans see that patience as incompetence.


patience is different than just sitting around and waiting. if i as a fan saw a legit plan being worked on, id have no problem being patient. take the nationals for example. i have no problem with the fact that they are a dreadful baseball team with more holes than a prairie dog field. but, i personally feel they have a plan in place, so im willing to wait. they are trying to get as many good young players as they can, and once that group of youngsters proves they can compete, they will begin to spend money. they proved they have no problem spending money on legit young players by throwing 40 trillion dollars at tex, its just hard to compete with those cool looking NY hats.

either way, thats a plan. whats the redskins plan? somebody explain this plan to me, cause i dont see one. i see no difference in any of the past 4 or 5 seasons. we pay for old free agents, and when we draft its at sexy positions. were still ignoring the lines, we still have a mediocre game managing QB whos not even allowed to compete with potential other QBs, CP still has no leash no matter who the coach is because him and snyder are BFFs, and we have the worst current GM in football who is responsible for some of the worst FA acquistions and draft picks ever.


ive said it before, if the redskins come out into the public and say "heres our plan, and we might struggle for a few seasons", you wont see complaints from me. i have no problem watching some young kids compete and fail. i do have a problem with overpaying for old guys who have no future compete and fail.

[Califan007]

patience is different than just sitting around and waiting. if i as a fan saw a legit plan being worked on, id have no problem being patient.
Do you REALLY think the Skins' FO has no plan in place, or that there's zero evidence that they do? :doh:...You can't be that naive.

I think with most fans, it's a lot like the Cardinals..."Their owner sucks! Their FO sucks! Their players suck! THEY suck!! What a joke of a franchise! Fitz and Boldin are wasted there! Edge is washed up! If the Cardinals don't want Davis then what does THAT say about his worth?! Leinart is a bust! Just shows how inept their scouting department is! Wasted high pick! They could have had (fill in the blank) instead! Warner is over the hill and fumbles too much!! That team's going nowhere with Bidwell as owner!"

Then they go on to make it to the Super Bowl...

"Snyder could learn a thing or two from the Cardinals! Zorn should watch what Wisenhunt did in his 2nd year if he wants to improve! They stocked up on talent! Fitz and Boldin were smart moves! We could have had Warner here instead of Brunell!"

It's not that the Cardinals "didn't have a plan"...every stinkin' team in the league has a plan, even the Lions had a plan under Millen. It's just that it's easier to claim your team does NOT have a plan when they're not winning.

Under Gibbs the plan was to stock the roster with proven FA veterans and build the depth through the draft. The two biggest flaws in their plan, though, turned out to be 1) trading future picks to get those veteran FAs, and 2) apparently not doing enough homework on those FAs.

The plan under Vinny/Snyder appears to be:

1) Go easy on the FAs if at all possible, and try to only sign those players that the coaches have some sort of experience with.

2) Invest in developing Campbell as much as possible to see if he's "the answer".

3) Trading down in the draft to try and recoup picks lost in the past (and due to the JT trade, this year).

4) Revamp the coaching staff and FO, and create a clearly defined FO hierarchy with Vinny the clear "GM".

Doesn't mean they'll stick to this plan no matter what...no good FO does. But it IS obvious that is Vinny and Snyder's (and Zorn's) plan. Hell, Vinny pretty much outlined it at several press conferences.

If the Skins are lucky enough (and dedicated enough from the owner down to the players) and end up winning the division and advancing in the playoffs within the next two years, there will be articles written about how Snyder and Vinny's plan worked out. You'll read in minute detail what their thinking was, why they did what they did, where they went right, where they went wrong, etc. You will NOT see articles saying "While Snyder and Cerrato really had no plan or method to guide their decisions, they somehow ended up in the NFC Championship game anyway." lol...

For me, I find it damn easy to be patient and do these things:

- Wait and see how last year's draft class pans out, especially the receivers. Hopefully Vinny and Zorn's plan of drafting the BPA in the 2nd round works out and we have our future starters already on the roster.

- Wait and see if hiring Zorn truly revitalizes the offense, and continues to develop Campbell and Brennan. If so, one of these two QBs just might end up being what we have been missing for well over a decade.

- Wait and see if Zorn develops into a bonafide quality OC. This was his first year at calling plays as well as at coaching. I'm more than patient enough to wait and see if he shows improvement, which believe it or not many people DO improve from their first times at something to their second time, and their 3rd time...

- Wait and see if Vinny goes after line help aggresively, as is being reported he wants to do.


So, yeah...to me, fan impatience has absolutely zero to do with "they don't have a plan". It has everything, though, to do with "They're not winning, and I want things to change, now!"

[elkabong82]

thank you califan

[REEGSKINS]

i wanted to post this earlier. this is a great move. reese is a very good gm, i dont know why we didnt approach him. actually i do... snyderatto thinks that we have a great set up. kinda scary.

[SkinsFTW]

Califan, it's not that people think they have no plan. It's that the plan changes from year to year dependent on whether they can create enough cap room to sabotage their own draft. They will still try to bring in loads of Free agents and will still trade draft picks for them. I.E. Chad Johnson talks last year, and the Jason Taylor trade that they denied interest in.

[Thinking Skins]

Califan, it's not that people think they have no plan. It's that the plan changes from year to year dependent on whether they can create enough cap room to sabotage their own draft. They will still try to bring in loads of Free agents and will still trade draft picks for them. I.E. Chad Johnson talks last year, and the Jason Taylor trade that they denied interest in.

What has Vinny said this offseason that shows a change in the plan since last offseason?

[SkinsFTW]

What has Vinny said this offseason that shows a change in the plan since last offseason?

Does it really matter what he says? He said we weren't going after Jason Taylor, a few minutes before he was traded. I'm not too worried about what any of them say, I just wait to see who they signed.

Fact is, when Snyderatto has cap room they use it on whatever Free Agents are available whether they fit our system or not. It's a Madden Football 101 here at Redskinsland. Maybe their isn't any easy way to get cap space this year but you can bet that a few restructures will happen and we will see some action.

[fansince62]

Do you REALLY think the Skins' FO has no plan in place, or that there's zero evidence that they do? :doh:...You can't be that naive.

I think with most fans, it's a lot like the Cardinals..."Their owner sucks! Their FO sucks! Their players suck! THEY suck!! What a joke of a franchise! Fitz and Boldin are wasted there! Edge is washed up! If the Cardinals don't want Davis then what does THAT say about his worth?! Leinart is a bust! Just shows how inept their scouting department is! Wasted high pick! They could have had (fill in the blank) instead! Warner is over the hill and fumbles too much!! That team's going nowhere with Bidwell as owner!"

Then they go on to make it to the Super Bowl...

"Snyder could learn a thing or two from the Cardinals! Zorn should watch what Wisenhunt did in his 2nd year if he wants to improve! They stocked up on talent! Fitz and Boldin were smart moves! We could have had Warner here instead of Brunell!"

It's not that the Cardinals "didn't have a plan"...every stinkin' team in the league has a plan, even the Lions had a plan under Millen. It's just that it's easier to claim your team does NOT have a plan when they're not winning.

Under Gibbs the plan was to stock the roster with proven FA veterans and build the depth through the draft. The two biggest flaws in their plan, though, turned out to be 1) trading future picks to get those veteran FAs, and 2) apparently not doing enough homework on those FAs.

The plan under Vinny/Snyder appears to be:

1) Go easy on the FAs if at all possible, and try to only sign those players that the coaches have some sort of experience with.

2) Invest in developing Campbell as much as possible to see if he's "the answer".

3) Trading down in the draft to try and recoup picks lost in the past (and due to the JT trade, this year).

4) Revamp the coaching staff and FO, and create a clearly defined FO hierarchy with Vinny the clear "GM".

Doesn't mean they'll stick to this plan no matter what...no good FO does. But it IS obvious that is Vinny and Snyder's (and Zorn's) plan. Hell, Vinny pretty much outlined it at several press conferences.

If the Skins are lucky enough (and dedicated enough from the owner down to the players) and end up winning the division and advancing in the playoffs within the next two years, there will be articles written about how Snyder and Vinny's plan worked out. You'll read in minute detail what their thinking was, why they did what they did, where they went right, where they went wrong, etc. You will NOT see articles saying "While Snyder and Cerrato really had no plan or method to guide their decisions, they somehow ended up in the NFC Championship game anyway." lol...

For me, I find it damn easy to be patient and do these things:

- Wait and see how last year's draft class pans out, especially the receivers. Hopefully Vinny and Zorn's plan of drafting the BPA in the 2nd round works out and we have our future starters already on the roster.

- Wait and see if hiring Zorn truly revitalizes the offense, and continues to develop Campbell and Brennan. If so, one of these two QBs just might end up being what we have been missing for well over a decade.

- Wait and see if Zorn develops into a bonafide quality OC. This was his first year at calling plays as well as at coaching. I'm more than patient enough to wait and see if he shows improvement, which believe it or not many people DO improve from their first times at something to their second time, and their 3rd time...

- Wait and see if Vinny goes after line help aggresively, as is being reported he wants to do.


So, yeah...to me, fan impatience has absolutely zero to do with "they don't have a plan". It has everything, though, to do with "They're not winning, and I want things to change, now!"

cali...I know you feel compelled to ride in on the white horse.....get the cheerleaders like Elk to nod in prideful assent....that things are improving...we just don't understand.....universal goodness is in front of our very eyes and we are all too jaundiced to see it.....but.....

it has become an annual rite on these boards for someone to communicate this message. well....the attitude has finally been mugged by reality. 16 years of reality to be specific. aside from the fact that you drift off into your own speculative psychology that HAS NOTHING TO DO with how decisions are being made and how past decisins have boxed the team in......there is...at the end of the day...the final, indisputable, unassailable, unarguable, immutable fact of......drum roll....16 years of inconsistent, unaccomplished...ultimately unsuccessful football. that many of us also have models of success to compare against the Skins - other teams - doesn't help either.

all we hear these days is one endless littany of excuses. were I you...I would lay low and at least wait until there is that one moment of shining success so that there is actually some substance to what is being asserted. otherwise...the folks pushing this line of thought...quite frankly......sound, seem and are...just as silly as the folks pushing the world is ending mush.

[fansince62]

Does it really matter what he says? He said we weren't going after Jason Taylor, a few minutes before he was traded. I'm not too worried about what any of them say, I just wait to see who they signed.

Fact is, when Snyderatto has cap room they use it on whatever Free Agents are available whether they fit our system or not. It's a Madden Football 101 here at Redskinsland. Maybe their isn't any easy way to get cap space this year but you can bet that a few restructures will happen and we will see some action.

look man....there are people who like the climb much more so than the arrival. whether they ever arrive at the mountain top is irrelevant to them. rather obvious ...eh?

the Skins the last 16 years remind me of the one living example throughout recorded history of how Zeno's paradox actually applies! half a step closer - never to reach the end!!! at least if one listens to the optimists!!!

[Thinking Skins]

cali...I know you feel compelled to ride in on the white horse.....get the cheerleaders like Elk to nod in prideful assent....that things are improving...we just don't understand.....universal goodness is in front of our very eyes and we are all too jaundiced to see it.....but.....

it has become an annual rite on these boards for someone to communicate this message. well....the attitude has finally been mugged by reality. 16 years of reality to be specific. aside from the fact that you drift off into your own speculative psychology that HAS NOTHING TO DO with how decisions are being made and how past decisins have boxed the team in......there is...at the end of the day...the final, indisputable, unassailable, unarguable, immutable fact of......drum roll....16 years of inconsistent, unaccomplished...ultimately unsuccessful football. that many of us also have models of success to compare against the Skins - other teams - doesn't help either.

all we hear these days is one endless littany of excuses. were I you...I would lay low and at least wait until there is that one moment of shining success so that there is actually some substance to what is being asserted. otherwise...the folks pushing this line of thought...quite frankly......sound, seem and are...just as silly as the folks pushing the world is ending mush.

Says one of the eternal pessimists.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Do you REALLY think the Skins' FO has no plan in place, or that there's zero evidence that they do? :doh:...You can't be that naive.

I think with most fans, it's a lot like the Cardinals..."Their owner sucks! Their FO sucks! Their players suck! THEY suck!! What a joke of a franchise! Fitz and Boldin are wasted there! Edge is washed up! If the Cardinals don't want Davis then what does THAT say about his worth?! Leinart is a bust! Just shows how inept their scouting department is! Wasted high pick! They could have had (fill in the blank) instead! Warner is over the hill and fumbles too much!! That team's going nowhere with Bidwell as owner!"

Then they go on to make it to the Super Bowl...

"Snyder could learn a thing or two from the Cardinals! Zorn should watch what Wisenhunt did in his 2nd year if he wants to improve! They stocked up on talent! Fitz and Boldin were smart moves! We could have had Warner here instead of Brunell!"

It's not that the Cardinals "didn't have a plan"...every stinkin' team in the league has a plan, even the Lions had a plan under Millen. It's just that it's easier to claim your team does NOT have a plan when they're not winning.

Under Gibbs the plan was to stock the roster with proven FA veterans and build the depth through the draft. The two biggest flaws in their plan, though, turned out to be 1) trading future picks to get those veteran FAs, and 2) apparently not doing enough homework on those FAs.

The plan under Vinny/Snyder appears to be:

1) Go easy on the FAs if at all possible, and try to only sign those players that the coaches have some sort of experience with.

2) Invest in developing Campbell as much as possible to see if he's "the answer".

3) Trading down in the draft to try and recoup picks lost in the past (and due to the JT trade, this year).

4) Revamp the coaching staff and FO, and create a clearly defined FO hierarchy with Vinny the clear "GM".

Doesn't mean they'll stick to this plan no matter what...no good FO does. But it IS obvious that is Vinny and Snyder's (and Zorn's) plan. Hell, Vinny pretty much outlined it at several press conferences.

If the Skins are lucky enough (and dedicated enough from the owner down to the players) and end up winning the division and advancing in the playoffs within the next two years, there will be articles written about how Snyder and Vinny's plan worked out. You'll read in minute detail what their thinking was, why they did what they did, where they went right, where they went wrong, etc. You will NOT see articles saying "While Snyder and Cerrato really had no plan or method to guide their decisions, they somehow ended up in the NFC Championship game anyway." lol...

For me, I find it damn easy to be patient and do these things:

- Wait and see how last year's draft class pans out, especially the receivers. Hopefully Vinny and Zorn's plan of drafting the BPA in the 2nd round works out and we have our future starters already on the roster.

- Wait and see if hiring Zorn truly revitalizes the offense, and continues to develop Campbell and Brennan. If so, one of these two QBs just might end up being what we have been missing for well over a decade.

- Wait and see if Zorn develops into a bonafide quality OC. This was his first year at calling plays as well as at coaching. I'm more than patient enough to wait and see if he shows improvement, which believe it or not many people DO improve from their first times at something to their second time, and their 3rd time...

- Wait and see if Vinny goes after line help aggresively, as is being reported he wants to do.


So, yeah...to me, fan impatience has absolutely zero to do with "they don't have a plan". It has everything, though, to do with "They're not winning, and I want things to change, now!"



i see no plan in place whatsoever, and if youd like to call me naive, then so be it. but ill be a naive guy that knows this plan or any plan weve had has been a failure.

2004 - the skins blew it up, ignored the draft, brought in a billion FAs. griffin, springs, washington, portis, brunell, etc. we drafted 2 pro bowlers with the 3 (i think) picks we had. team went 6-10.

2005 - had 2 1st rounders with trades, and had a horrendous draft. both first rounders still havent turned out to be 1st rounders, and the rest of the guys we drafted were runningbacks that failed miserably. we brought in santana moss via trade, and he had a nice season. we made an epic run at the playoffs only to get shown up by the eventual NFC champs. 10-6, 1-1

2006 - now we completely throw out the draft plan which we had the year before where we had 2 1st rounders, only to have 1 day one pick. we take rocky, then we end up with golston, monty, doughty, and other dudes who didnt make the team. not many impact guys in this draft. we also sign the worst FA crop in the history of football: archuleta, lloyd, randle el, carter, all to huge money deals, and none of them have worked out for what we pay. epic fail 5-11

2007 - now we still avoid the draft, and we only get landry, and not a single other pick makes the team. we lay low in free agency most likely to avoid further embarrassment, or maybe we just didnt have any money. we get fletcher, good pickup. we go 9-7, 0-1 in playoffs.

2008 - this year we just decide to draft the universe, with 10 picks. horton is the only guy who made a difference this year, and im not ready to judge this draft class yet, but you bring up the cardinals. well 2 of their DPs this year made a huge difference, hightower and dominique RC both played outstanding for their rookie seasons. trade 2nd and 6th rounders for jason failure. 8-8


whats our plan? is our plan to bumble around in the draft, pick up a good player in the first round, get lucky in the 7th? have entire years where our whole draft class is a failure? then go out and sign a million free agents once every couple of years? wash rinse repeat? i mean, whats the plan that im failing to see? trade more draft picks for over the hill guys? erasmus james? pete kendall? all of these guys cost us potential youth, but some of you dont seem to care.

someone just in a few sentences lay out our plan please.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

again, ill bring up the nats. they have a plan. dont know whether itll work or not, but its the same every year. draft guys, go after youngsters, dont blow money in FA. thats a plan i can see, some might not agree with it, some might think its awesome, regardless of that its still a plan.

the redskins plan seems to change from season to season, hence making it not a plan. at least not a long term plan anyways.

[0mega]

i see no plan in place whatsoever, and if youd like to call me naive, then so be it. but ill be a naive guy that knows this plan or any plan weve had has been a failure.

2004 - the skins blew it up, ignored the draft, brought in a billion FAs. griffin, springs, washington, portis, brunell, etc. we drafted 2 pro bowlers with the 3 (i think) picks we had. team went 6-10.

2005 - had 2 1st rounders with trades, and had a horrendous draft. both first rounders still havent turned out to be 1st rounders, and the rest of the guys we drafted were runningbacks that failed miserably. we brought in santana moss via trade, and he had a nice season. we made an epic run at the playoffs only to get shown up by the eventual NFC champs. 10-6, 1-1

2006 - now we completely throw out the draft plan which we had the year before where we had 2 1st rounders, only to have 1 day one pick. we take rocky, then we end up with golston, monty, doughty, and other dudes who didnt make the team. not many impact guys in this draft. we also sign the worst FA crop in the history of football: archuleta, lloyd, randle el, carter, all to huge money deals, and none of them have worked out for what we pay. epic fail 5-11

2007 - now we still avoid the draft, and we only get landry, and not a single other pick makes the team. we lay low in free agency most likely to avoid further embarrassment, or maybe we just didnt have any money. we get fletcher, good pickup. we go 9-7, 0-1 in playoffs.

2008 - this year we just decide to draft the universe, with 10 picks. horton is the only guy who made a difference this year, and im not ready to judge this draft class yet, but you bring up the cardinals. well 2 of their DPs this year made a huge difference, hightower and dominique RC both played outstanding for their rookie seasons. trade 2nd and 6th rounders for jason failure. 8-8


whats our plan? is our plan to bumble around in the draft, pick up a good player in the first round, get lucky in the 7th? have entire years where our whole draft class is a failure? then go out and sign a million free agents once every couple of years? wash rinse repeat? i mean, whats the plan that im failing to see? trade more draft picks for over the hill guys? erasmus james? pete kendall? all of these guys cost us potential youth, but some of you dont seem to care.

someone just in a few sentences lay out our plan please.

He cited last years offseason approach and called it a plan. To me, you can't call it a plan until either somebody comes out and says "this is our plan," or there is a consistent pattern of action to SEE what the plan is. By all appearances, we're a rudderless ship, drifting wherever the tide of the day happens to takes us.

[pjfootballer]

again, ill bring up the nats. they have a plan. dont know whether itll work or not, but its the same every year. draft guys, go after youngsters, dont blow money in FA. thats a plan i can see, some might not agree with it, some might think its awesome, regardless of that its still a plan.

the redskins plan seems to change from season to season, hence making it not a plan. at least not a long term plan anyways.

The Capitals are a better example. Aging, overpaid, underacheiving team. Lockout comes. Traded anyone and anything (including the coffee table in the lobby at the Booth) for TONS of draft picks. I remember the Caps having like 6 picks in the first 3 rounds one year. Keep a few veterans around to help the kids (Kolzig, Clark, Bradley) and let the kids develop.

Losing season in 05 with the kids. Near playoff run in 06 with the kids. Playoff run in 07 and adding key vets (Huet, Feds) to make a long run in the playoffs and a division title. Re-sign key players (except Huet, but Jose was cheaper and just as good) and use the same core of players that made the run last year.

Now the team is being talked about possibly making a run at the cup within the next 3 years. THAT was a PLAN. And a GREAT plan that has actually come to fruition.

[paintrain]

i see no plan in place whatsoever, and if youd like to call me naive, then so be it. but ill be a naive guy that knows this plan or any plan weve had has been a failure.

2004 - the skins blew it up, ignored the draft, brought in a billion FAs. griffin, springs, washington, portis, brunell, etc. we drafted 2 pro bowlers with the 3 (i think) picks we had. team went 6-10.

2005 - had 2 1st rounders with trades, and had a horrendous draft. both first rounders still havent turned out to be 1st rounders, and the rest of the guys we drafted were runningbacks that failed miserably. we brought in santana moss via trade, and he had a nice season. we made an epic run at the playoffs only to get shown up by the eventual NFC champs. 10-6, 1-1

2006 - now we completely throw out the draft plan which we had the year before where we had 2 1st rounders, only to have 1 day one pick. we take rocky, then we end up with golston, monty, doughty, and other dudes who didnt make the team. not many impact guys in this draft. we also sign the worst FA crop in the history of football: archuleta, lloyd, randle el, carter, all to huge money deals, and none of them have worked out for what we pay. epic fail 5-11

2007 - now we still avoid the draft, and we only get landry, and not a single other pick makes the team. we lay low in free agency most likely to avoid further embarrassment, or maybe we just didnt have any money. we get fletcher, good pickup. we go 9-7, 0-1 in playoffs.

2008 - this year we just decide to draft the universe, with 10 picks. horton is the only guy who made a difference this year, and im not ready to judge this draft class yet, but you bring up the cardinals. well 2 of their DPs this year made a huge difference, hightower and dominique RC both played outstanding for their rookie seasons. trade 2nd and 6th rounders for jason failure. 8-8


whats our plan? is our plan to bumble around in the draft, pick up a good player in the first round, get lucky in the 7th? have entire years where our whole draft class is a failure? then go out and sign a million free agents once every couple of years? wash rinse repeat? i mean, whats the plan that im failing to see? trade more draft picks for over the hill guys? erasmus james? pete kendall? all of these guys cost us potential youth, but some of you dont seem to care.

someone just in a few sentences lay out our plan please.
That's exactly why I've been asserting that Joe Gibbs 4 years actually set the franchise back 8 years. He left us with an old, stale, salary cap bloated roster that was lacking in elite players at any position. It's going to be at least a 4 year rebuild and with Cerrato in charge and unchecked it's not going to be pretty. While I am not writing off the 2nd round picks, I think it's safe to say that the '08 draft class has much to prove to avoid the 'disaster' label in a couple of years.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The Capitals are a better example. Aging, overpaid, underacheiving team. Lockout comes. Traded anyone and anything (including the coffee table in the lobby at the Booth) for TONS of draft picks. I remember the Caps having like 6 picks in the first 3 rounds one year. Keep a few veterans around to help the kids (Kolzig, Clark, Bradley) and let the kids develop.

Losing season in 05 with the kids. Near playoff run in 06 with the kids. Playoff run in 07 and adding key vets (Huet, Feds) to make a long run in the playoffs and a division title. Re-sign key players (except Huet, but Jose was cheaper and just as good) and use the same core of players that made the run last year.

Now the team is being talked about possibly making a run at the cup within the next 3 years. THAT was a PLAN. And a GREAT plan that has actually come to fruition.


im not a hockey guy but i do believe this is a better example. the caps were a joke a few years ago, and now they are probably the most feared offense in hockey. my friends into hockey all tell me i dont know what im missing by not watching the caps or hockey in general. they obviously built it through the draft, kids like ovechkin, backstrom, semin, all these dudes home grown and total monsters.

but we'll never do this because we have no plan. every year we just fumble around and try something else.

[RFKFedEx]

but we'll never do this because we have no plan.

What do you mean?

There's a classic Vinny soundbite Czaban still plays from the Spurriur era:

'we have a plan, don't worry, we know what we're doing'

:doh:

[HailGreen28]

That's exactly why I've been asserting that Joe Gibbs 4 years actually set the franchise back 8 years. He left us with an old, stale, salary cap bloated roster that was lacking in elite players at any position. It's going to be at least a 4 year rebuild and with Cerrato in charge and unchecked it's not going to be pretty. While I am not writing off the 2nd round picks, I think it's safe to say that the '08 draft class has much to prove to avoid the 'disaster' label in a couple of years.I'd argue that Gibbs left us better off than the Spurrier era. Judging by your sig, I think you'll agree that what we saw from Vinny during the Turner/Spurrier years wasn't pretty either.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I'd argue that Gibbs left us better off than the Spurrier era. Judging by your sig, I think you'll agree that what we saw from Vinny during the Turner/Spurrier years wasn't pretty either.


thats not all true. i dont remember having a plethora of uncuttable player under spurrier due to awful contracts. we have so many players that we cant cut or we have to pay them forever. spurrier might have had less talent to work with than gibbs assembled, but its also going to cost us in the long run, something spurrier didnt to do us.

[paintrain]

thats not all true. i dont remember having a plethora of uncuttable player under spurrier due to awful contracts. we have so many players that we cant cut or we have to pay them forever. spurrier might have had less talent to work with than gibbs assembled, but its also going to cost us in the long run, something spurrier didnt to do us.

Exactly, Spurrier's damage was limited to his tenure. Gibbs damage still lingers and will linger for a couple more years.

[fansince62]

Says one of the eternal pessimists.


ouch! now there's a biting, fact filled response!!!!!

[fansince62]

again, ill bring up the nats. they have a plan. dont know whether itll work or not, but its the same every year. draft guys, go after youngsters, dont blow money in FA. thats a plan i can see, some might not agree with it, some might think its awesome, regardless of that its still a plan.

the redskins plan seems to change from season to season, hence making it not a plan. at least not a long term plan anyways.

bingo! even as Old would concede...it's all been short-term thinking. I prefer to think of it as patchwork thinking.

[Oldfan]

please explain how that makes the defense overrated?...the defense is not overrated, to be overrated you have to first be rated highly, which you above state plainly doesn't happen.

The NFL rankings based on yardage stats has our D fourth. It's a poor measurement because it doesn't consider...


...sacks and turnovers...... while sacks alone don't equal wins, they do help produce turnovers, which studies show do win ball games (or lose them depending on which side of the ball your on)

Zorn has said he wants the D to be more aggressive in 2009. Assuming we don't have a talent downgrade, we should have a better D next season even if the stats don't show it.

[Oldfan]

...The plan under Vinny/Snyder appears to be:

1) Go easy on the FAs if at all possible, and try to only sign those players that the coaches have some sort of experience with.

2) Invest in developing Campbell as much as possible to see if he's "the answer".

3) Trading down in the draft to try and recoup picks lost in the past (and due to the JT trade, this year).

4) Revamp the coaching staff and FO, and create a clearly defined FO hierarchy with Vinny the clear "GM"...

We're in agreement.

Except for the trade of picks for Taylor and the aborted trade of picks for Chad Johnson, I've been on board for their moves since the 2007 offseason.

Dan and Vinny aren't brilliant, but they have learned from their mistakes (and Joe's). The poor result from the Taylor trade was probably a good thing.

I'm more optimistic now than I have been for years. The organization has been on a win-now plan for several years. Gibbs accelerated it, and then took his foot off the accelerator after the 2006 collapse. Dan and Vinny need to come off it entirely.

[elkabong82]

bingo! even as Old would concede...it's all been short-term thinking. I prefer to think of it as patchwork thinking.

And now that Vinny is in charge we do appear to be moving towards more long-term strategies, just as Califan pointed out and Oldfan quoted above this post. However all the pessimists, err, I mean "realists" (because apparently the only way to be real about something is to see it in a negative light to you guys) are already slamming Vinny after 1 season of actual accountability. Many of you are still hollering for Vinny to be fired. Yeah, that's worked real well in the past guys. Stuff doesn't work out perfectly immediately, so let's scrap it after 1 season and start all over again. You all love to bash Snyder for being so impatient, yet you all exhibit the same lack of patience. And spare me the "x amount of years since a Superbowl," rhetoric, cuz we're talking about the team NOW, not the team over the course of more than a decade with different players, coaches, etc.

This regime has Vinny essentially as GM and Zorn as HC, so let's just look at this current regime and their plan. Sticking to that, Vinny has, overall, gone with the plan most on here have screamed about. Sadly, some of you all would rather be right than give the this current regime more than 1 season. How many of you armchair GMs would have traded Rogers last season? Few want to trade him now. God forbid we actually learn a lesson from all that and give the current "GM" and head coach as much time. Nope, because that would require the one thing this fan base desperately lacks: patience. I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

[Thinking Skins]

Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.


Quoted for freakin truth!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right.


because we had one draft with a bunch of picks we are now somehow focused on building through the draft? focused teams dont trade picks for pete kendall, erasmus james, and jason taylor with draft picks. we have 4 picks in this years draft? that doesnt look like a team dedicated to the draft in my opinion.

[Oldfan]

because we had one draft with a bunch of picks we are now somehow focused on building through the draft? focused teams dont trade picks for pete kendall, erasmus james, and jason taylor with draft picks. we have 4 picks in this years draft? that doesnt look like a team dedicated to the draft in my opinion.

Only the Taylor trade could not be justified, IMO. Assuming they don't add picks this year, they still have used 14 picks in the two seasons.

I was opposed to the Taylor trade when it went down. 90% of the posters in this forum favored it, but you wouldn't know it from the posts blasting Vinny for it in hindsight.

[paintrain]

And now that Vinny is in charge we do appear to be moving towards more long-term strategies, just as Califan pointed out and Oldfan quoted above this post. However all the pessimists, err, I mean "realists" (because apparently the only way to be real about something is to see it in a negative light to you guys) are already slamming Vinny after 1 season of actual accountability. Many of you are still hollering for Vinny to be fired. Yeah, that's worked real well in the past guys. Stuff doesn't work out perfectly immediately, so let's scrap it after 1 season and start all over again. You all love to bash Snyder for being so impatient, yet you all exhibit the same lack of patience. And spare me the "x amount of years since a Superbowl," rhetoric, cuz we're talking about the team NOW, not the team over the course of more than a decade with different players, coaches, etc.

This regime has Vinny essentially as GM and Zorn as HC, so let's just look at this current regime and their plan. Sticking to that, Vinny has, overall, gone with the plan most on here have screamed about. Sadly, some of you all would rather be right than give the this current regime more than 1 season. How many of you armchair GMs would have traded Rogers last season? Few want to trade him now. God forbid we actually learn a lesson from all that and give the current "GM" and head coach as much time. Nope, because that would require the one thing this fan base desperately lacks: patience. I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.
I think what most fans are clamoring about with regards to Vinny is 'been there-done that-seen the movie-don't care for the sequel'. While Vinny hasn't been the GM for more than just last offseason, he is the only constant, besides mediocrity, in the Snyder era. He came to DC with questions (had the credentials but was not well respected in SF) and has done exactly nothing to dispel them. Who is our signature acquisition in his 10 years with the organization? What specific value has he brought?

It's not a matter of just one season of frustration and 'FIRE VINNY' but years of pathetic football, the same issues (lack of consistent play at QB, lack of a consistent passing game, lack of a pass rush, lack of defensive and special teams playmakers) that scream that something is wrong with the way we are acquiring players and has been for a long time.

Yes it's year one of Zornatto but it's 10 years of Snyderatto. We all are hoping for the best but expecting the worst based on recent data. All of the calls for Cowher, Holmgren, Shannahan, Gruden, etc. are not simply because people want change for the sake of change, they want a complete culture change. They want to see us respected on and off the field rather than the laughingstock we've become.

We've got a sleeping giant, but rather than stir the beast we keep feeding it valium. We want someone who knows how to build a winner, knows how to utilize Danny's big pockets wisely and who knows how an organization should function. Vinny has never shown us that he is that guy.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Only the Taylor trade could not be justified, IMO. Assuming they don't add picks this year, they still have used 14 picks in the two seasons.

I was opposed to the Taylor trade when it went down. 90% of the posters in this forum favored it, but you wouldn't know it from the posts blasting Vinny for it in hindsight.


14 picks in 2 seasons, 1 season was 10 of them. the year before that, according to elk, vinny wasnt even in charge, so that draft shouldnt even be considered part of "the plan". we can discuss all this nonsense all day and claim vinny was only in charge of certain years and certain drafts, but the results are all the same.

and you realize how embarrassing it will be for this organization if 9 of our 10 draft picks from 08 do not pan out, and the only one that does is a 7th round luck pick? lol

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

That's exactly why I've been asserting that Joe Gibbs 4 years actually set the franchise back 8 years. He left us with an old, stale, salary cap bloated roster that was lacking in elite players at any position.
:applause:

[Oldfan]

and you realize how embarrassing it will be for this organization if 9 of our 10 draft picks from 08 do not pan out, and the only one that does is a 7th round luck pick? lol

If that happens, it will be evidence of Vinny's incompetence and I'll join you in looking for a change. But, on first impression, the 2008 picks looked to me like the best group of raw talent I've seen in Skins colors in many years.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If that happens, it will be evidence of Vinny's incompetence and I'll join you in looking for a change. But, on first impression, the 2008 picks looked to me like the best group of raw talent I've seen in Skins colors in many years.


i hope youre right. only time will tell.

[fansince62]

If that happens, it will be evidence of Vinny's incompetence and I'll join you in looking for a change. But, on first impression, the 2008 picks looked to me like the best group of raw talent I've seen in Skins colors in many years.


thank goodness raw talent doesn't include: physical condition, intelligence, commitment!

[Thinking Skins]

That's exactly why I've been asserting that Joe Gibbs 4 years actually set the franchise back 8 years. He left us with an old, stale, salary cap bloated roster that was lacking in elite players at any position. It's going to be at least a 4 year rebuild and with Cerrato in charge and unchecked it's not going to be pretty. While I am not writing off the 2nd round picks, I think it's safe to say that the '08 draft class has much to prove to avoid the 'disaster' label in a couple of years.

Now that you mention it, didn't Gibbs do the same thing to us when he retired the first time?

I don't think it'll be as hard to rebuild as last time (if you remember we were close with Norv to having this thing turned around in about 3 years the first time). I think it'll just take a few good drafts that come to truth. Last year may be the first one, but we need to see results on the field for it to count.

I'd like to see a similar draft (trading down for multiple picks) this year and getting talent along the OL and DL this draft.

To me its all about getting enough young hungry guys to compete for the roster spots, then we can save a nice group of core veterans leadership and build around that.

[TD Riggo]

Hehe, no we're not.

Lions 0 wins
1
2
3
4
5
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Redskins 8 wins
9
10
Patriots 11 wins
12
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16

See...we're closer to the Patriots! :)


... and we're within three games with a brand new coach, and a brand new offense.

Some of you need to toughen up! Stop using Vinny as an excuse. He's no worse than probably at least half of the other "GM"s out there!

Do I believe that Vin and Dan always make the right decisions? Absolutely not. But they are hardly as bad as a lot of you make them out to be!

[SkinsFTW]

I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

We lack patience?

How many years does it take Snyder/Cerrato to build a winning team? If they fail at the "Draft first" philosophy and decide to go to another philosophy due to their own incompetence should we be expected to show several more years of patience for that as well?

According to you we should just keep waiting and waiting to see if 2 clowns can pull their heads out of their asses while trying out different strategies every 3-4 years. Neither one has any history of doing it right, both have been at it here for a decade, but patience is the answer to all of this.

We all just expect things way too quickly. Wait another decade, maybe 2 or 3, they will get it right sooner or later.
:cheers:

[Oldfan]

We lack patience?

How many years does it take Snyder/Cerrato to build a winning team? If they fail at the "Draft first" philosophy and decide to go to another philosophy due to their own incompetence should we be expected to show several more years of patience for that as well?:

Your question implies impatience since Dan and Vinny haven't yet failed at the draft-first method. When and if they do, we patient types will join you in griping about them.

[Rudechain]

And now that Vinny is in charge we do appear to be moving towards more long-term strategies, just as Califan pointed out and Oldfan quoted above this post. However all the pessimists, err, I mean "realists" (because apparently the only way to be real about something is to see it in a negative light to you guys) are already slamming Vinny after 1 season of actual accountability. Many of you are still hollering for Vinny to be fired. Yeah, that's worked real well in the past guys. Stuff doesn't work out perfectly immediately, so let's scrap it after 1 season and start all over again. You all love to bash Snyder for being so impatient, yet you all exhibit the same lack of patience. And spare me the "x amount of years since a Superbowl," rhetoric, cuz we're talking about the team NOW, not the team over the course of more than a decade with different players, coaches, etc.

This regime has Vinny essentially as GM and Zorn as HC, so let's just look at this current regime and their plan. Sticking to that, Vinny has, overall, gone with the plan most on here have screamed about. Sadly, some of you all would rather be right than give the this current regime more than 1 season. How many of you armchair GMs would have traded Rogers last season? Few want to trade him now. God forbid we actually learn a lesson from all that and give the current "GM" and head coach as much time. Nope, because that would require the one thing this fan base desperately lacks: patience. I said long before now that if the team did start focusing on the draft to build that most of you wouldn't have the patience to see it through. Just 1 season into it and I've been proven right. Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.


You said it brother. Rome was not built in a day and neither is a sustainable competitive NFL franchise.

[BAFGA]

Hard to give the fans what they want when their demands are erratic and when they demand long-term plans be installed but with immediate results.

Long term plans are nice. Matt Millen had long term plans. See how those turned out? The Redskins might have a long term plan (but probably not) but I don't trust Vinny with that plan. Especially one he created. I wouldn't trust him managing a Subway restaurant, much less any sort of long term NFL plan.

[Oldfan]

Long term plans are nice. Matt Millen had long term plans. See how those turned out? The Redskins might have a long term plan (but probably not) but I don't trust Vinny with that plan. Especially one he created. I wouldn't trust him managing a Subway restaurant, much less any sort of long term NFL plan.

Why the distrust for Vinny? He has only been the virtual GM for a year.

[Thinking Skins]

Your question implies impatience since Dan and Vinny haven't yet failed at the draft-first method. When and if they do, we patient types will join you in griping about them.

Exactly. Some of us (including me) have had a problem with Vinny and co. for not focusing on the draft. Now that he is, I'm happy that he is doing so, and I'm focused not just on Vinny but also on our scouting department and guys like Scott Campbell who I've heard some real positive things about.

Here's a link to a thread I started last year about Scott Campbell (http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=251423) and how he really impressed me (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/16/AR2008041604158.html), including being the driving force behind the Falcons drafting Brett Favre (http://goliath.ecnext.com/premium/0199/0199-6925532.html).

The guy who originally told me about S. Campbell was Atlanta Skins Fan.


This combination of course suggests a horrific outcome: impulsively overpaying for overrated, flashy offensive players ... which is what you get when you triangulate these core assumptions. Brandon Lloyd, Randle El, TJ Duckett are obvious outcomes. On the defensive side of the ball, we see Archuleta and Carter.

But, if this outcome is so obvious, why did the Redskins do so much better in 2004-2005 (Marcus Washington, Shawn Springs, Santana Moss, etc.), as opposed to 2006, in acquiring players from other NFL teams? Could it be that the toxic triangulation of incompetence in pro player acquisition was violently disrupted ... by talented pro scouting?

The free-agent crew acquired prior to the 2004-2005 seasons was scouted under the direction of Scott (http://www.redskins.com/news/mediaguide/MG04-Staff.pdf) Campbell, then Redskins Director of Pro Personnel. But, on May 23, 2005, the Redskins made (http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=7353) Campbell the Director of College Scouting and promoted Louis Riddick to Director of Pro Personnel.

Suddenly the picture comes into focus. If we assume that Vinny Cerrato and Joe Gibbs on a good day add zero to pro player scouting, then the team's only chance for success rests with the director of pro personnel. The formula is roughly:

[Competence of Director of Pro Personnel] x [Snyder Spending] = Outcome

Now, much has been written about how Gregg Williams lobbied for Archuleta, and so on. But, coaches coach. When they watch film, they watch film prepared for them by the scouting department. Guys like Archuleta and Lloyd can assemble tremendous highlight reels, and it's the job of the pro scouts to see past the highlights to the weaknesses ... to analyze the balance ... and present the balance to people like Gregg Williams. If Gregg Williams sees an unbalanced presentation, making Archuleta look like a world-beater, his enthusiasm is not entirely his fault.

The timing suggests that the radical plunge between 2004/2005 and 2006 talent acquisitions has resulted from the change from Scott Campbell to Louis Riddick. The evidential, of course, is circumstantial.


Then last year, Riggo-toni added to what ASF said:


Ok, here goes....

In 2004, when Scott Campbell was running our pro scouting dept., we got some of the best bargains in free agents since free agency started (though some honorable mention should be given to Cerrato/Mendes/Snyder in '99 for landing Andy Heck, Keith Sims, Larry Centers and Marco Coleman). We got Washington, Griffin, and Springs - the cornerstones of our '04 defense. Our only flop was Barrow, and that was because of an unforeseeable injury. Our late day draft picks, on the other hand, failed miserably. Same pattern on a smaller scale in 05 - the Moss for Coles trade and Rabach, while White, Nemo, et al flopped. Then Campbell and Roddick traded places (kudos to ASF for the original research on this - and pardon me my friend for stealing some of your thunder here). Our pro pickups under Roddick's eye were mostly busts (Lloyd & Arch), but as the head of college scouting Campbell finally made the second day of our draft worthwhile, landing starting DTs Golston and Montgomery, as well as picking up McIntosh in the 2nd. Again this year he found a diamond in the rough in H.B. Blades, though Sartz and Palmer were busts. So....could it be time to promote Campbell over Vinny to GM, and let him put together a new scouting department. Personally I'd rather have Depaul as our GM, but I wonder if Campbell would respond well to the new responsibilities and hire talented subordinates in much the same way Savage has done in Cleveland. He seems to have a discerning eye for both pro and college talent. Thoughts??


And Here, Riggo-toni analyzes our drafts (http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=4760081&postcount=1)

We can look further into this and see that Riddick has since been fired and Campbell promoted as possible evidence that maybe ASF, Riggo-toni and I were on to something.

[Flycoach]

Good move by NE, but it wouldn't have worked here as long as Vinny was around.

[Oldfan]

Thinking Skins --- Some of us (including me) have had a problem with Vinny and co. for not focusing on the draft.

While we agree that patience is in order, I think the impatience of many fans stems from the kind of thinking that caused you to write the line quoted.

It wasn't "Vinny and Co." responsible for not focusing on the draft. By word and deed, Joe Gibbs showed that the idea was his. Vinny has been used as a scapegoat for those reluctant to lay blame on a Redskins icon.