7 black Houston firefighters sue, say city exam biased

[China]

7 black Houston firefighters sue, say city exam biased (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6247438.html)

By CAROLYN FEIBEL

Seven black firefighters are suing the city, contending that the Houston Fire Department’s test for officer promotions adversely affects blacks.

“This is systemic discrimination,” said the firefighters’ attorney, Dennis Thompson. “Selection rates for African-Americans are abysmally smaller than for white candidates.”

City Council on Wednesday delayed consideration of a request by the city attorney’s office to spend up to $197,000 on an outside law firm to defend the city against the federal lawsuit, which was filed in August. The council is expected to take up the request next week.

Firefighters trying to attain the rank of captain and above in the Houston Fire Department must take a 100-question multiple-choice test. Numerous studies show that blacks as a group do less well on high-stakes tests, Thompson said. He said fire departments should use cognitive tests only as a pass-fail benchmark and also should focus on performance exercises and other criteria.

“We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.”

Click on the link for the full article

[Larry]

“We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.”

Did the President of the Houston Black Firefighters Assoc just say that black folks aren't good at school, but they're good at playing football?

[Zhouse]

Gimme a break! I myself hate standardized tests but stop with the "Blacks don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests". It just shows how much of a moron you are.

[SparkleMotion]

If you're looking to stop discrimination, tests like these are exactly what you need.

The test doesn't know what color the person taking it is.

It's natural to blame the test for your own poor performance, but you can't sue and claim that it's discrimination.

The only thing it discriminates is the smartest candidates from the not so smart.

[RedlightG20]

“We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.”


"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."
- Martin Luther King, Jr

So I guess this guy is saying that MLK was wrong? Shocking.

[redskins59]

It depends on what questions were asked. If those multiple questions were, say, testing your IQ, that's discriminatory. However, if the questions were about procedures/actions that firefighters need to follow, then that's not discriminatory.

[Gator Bait]

maybe they should do better on the test.

I agree with sparklemotion....multiple choice test is color blind

[Stophovr6]

LOL. This is like that time I heard a feminist talking about how the physical fire tests were discriminatory towards women because woman can't do all the things men can do physically. When asked what should be done about it she said the standards should be lowered. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Henry]

Did the President of the Houston Black Firefighters Assoc just say that black folks aren't good at school, but they're good at playing football?

That's how it read to me.

[Larry]

If you're looking to stop discrimination, tests like these are exactly what you need.

The test doesn't know what color the person taking it is.

It's natural to blame the test for your own poor performance, but you can't sue and claim that it's discrimination.

The only thing it discriminates is the smartest candidates from the not so smart.

It's an interesting debate. Been going on for years. (Decades, I bet.)

For example, it's been shown for some time that blacks don't do as well on the SAT as other groups.

This causes a lot of people to say that the test is biased. But is it proof?

IMO, it's possible for society to go too far in their efforts to identify and counteract racism.

The way I think of it is: When you get to the point where a disparity in results is considered proof of racism, then you're no longer guaranteeing equal opportunity, you're guaranteeing equal results.

I'd agree that when (I seem to remember that this was an actual discrimination case) no black firefighter has ever attained the rank of Captain in the entire history of the Chicago Fire Department, even though blacks make up umpty-ump percentage of the lower ranks, and have for generations, then yep, that statistic, all by itself, is a pretty strong case that racism is involved.

OTOH, if (fictional scenario) blacks make up 17.3% of the population, but only make up 14% of the Aerospace Engineers at Acme Aerospace, then does that prove that Acme is discriminating? Or does it mean that blacks tend not to major in aerospace engineering?

IMO, that's where the dreaded quotas come from: If any organization can be sued for discrimination, and if all it takes to prove discrimination is that the org failed to achieve three-decimal-place compliance with numerical targets, then of course the company's going to do whatever it takes to make darned sure they hit that target exactly.

But back to the tests and so forth:

If, say, blacks don't score as well on the SAT. Does that prove that the test is biased? Or does it prove that, say, blacks tend to get short-changed by their High Schools?

Does applying a "fudge factor" to the student's score, based on race, to make the average score for (race x) equal the average score for (race y) really fix a problem? Or does it simply push the problem on to "the next grade"?

[BigMike619]

Did the President of the Houston Black Firefighters Assoc just say that black folks aren't good at school, but they're good at playing football?

unfreakingreal!! i bet MLK is turning in his grave.

does he want us to make the test easier so that they can pass it? seems like i want my CAPTAIN to be smart in every way possible.

[sjinhan]

“We don’t do as well on these multiple-choice tests,” said Capt. Otis Jordan, president of the Houston Black Firefighters Association. Jordan and the HBFA are not part of the suit. “I compare fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football. Your best athlete might not be the straight-A student.”

Click on the link for the full article

It might also prove that best athlete, or best person who is good at "fighting a fire, riding an apparatus, to playing football." does not always make best captains either....

I do not know if they Captain selection is solely based on the score of this test. If it is then yes the system is flawed not because it discriminates against blacks but because it discounts the non-measureable like leadership and stuff like that... But I also dont agree with that this should be a pass/fail test. Granted that a person who scored 75 can be better candidate that a person who got a 90 on the test but it also the person needs to be rewarded or given an edge if the person outperforms the minimum. Like if the person is so dedicated to the work that he showed up a hour early and take a hour late everyday, should be award and given an edge compared to person who clocks in and out on the dot.

[rincewind]

I'd like to see some of the questions. They could be trick questions like:


Mayonnaise is awesome:

a. true
b. false



Celine Dion makes terrific music:

a. true
b. false

[THE OUTSIDER]

I'm just wondering, does any of you know the questions that are asked on the test? I don't.

[BigMike619]

I'm just wondering, does any of you know the questions that are asked on the test? I don't.

No, but if its a standarized test does it matter? everyone is asked the same set.

[SkinInsite]

Maybe the test ask you to list your favorite Friends episodes.

[SkinsBry]

Perhaps more questions like this.

The roof, the roof, the roof is on...

a) top of the house
b) a lake
c) suspension
d) fire

[Painkiller]

Perhaps more questions like this.

The roof, the roof, the roof is on...

a) top of the house
b) a lake
c) suspension
d) fire


Oh me me me!!! (Waves hand frantically)

The correct answer is d)

:)

[SkinsBry]

Oh me me me!!! (Waves hand frantically)

The correct answer is d)

:)

You are correct sir.

And to anyone that says it could be A or D, I reference you to this...

Archibald Leach, Bernard Schwartz and Lucille LeSueur
Who are three people who have never been in my kitchen?

While it is true, it's not THE correct answer.

[Major Harris]

Maybe the test ask you to list your favorite Friends episodes.
:rotflmao::rotflmao:

[Larry]

I'm just wondering, does any of you know the questions that are asked on the test? I don't.

Probably not.

OTOH, I'll point out that the plaintiffs aren't claiming that one or more questions are biased.

They're claiming that the mere fact that it's a test is bias. (Well, that, and the assumed fact that the people they represent aren't scoring as well as others.)

[MrMarcus1914]

Standardized test are biase in nature. It's common knowlegde that the test are to exclude rather than include participants. If you can't pass it, then you aren't qualified. But they know the game, you just have to figure out how to win. Shoot the LSAT is biase. I murdered that test. But I never speak like the language in the test. I see most people on this site are from one side of the arguement. And unfortunately have no empathy about the situation.

[Larry]

Standardized test are biase in nature. It's common knowlegde that the test are to exclude rather than include participants. If you can't pass it, then you aren't qualified. But they know the game, you just have to figure out how to win. Shoot the LSAT is biase. I murdered that test. But I never speak like the language in the test. I see most people on this site are from one side of the arguement. And unfortunately have no empathy about the situation.

You applying to be my biase?

(Sorry. Had to.)

[artmonkforHOF]

wow. Guess what? white firefighters, latino firefighters, asian firefighter and indian firefighters don't get promoted if they fail the test.

If white's do better on it, and your pissed, study harder. Someone should smack some sense into these dumb pricks.

[Duckus]

Hahahah - oh god. STFU and study for the test damn it.

This is one of my pet peeves. I am the type of person who still thinks their is a ton of racism and discrimination in the US. But its people like this who cry about irrelevant non-racist **** that makes white people completely tune out other, clearly racist things.

Focus on real racism and forget this ****.

[Corcaigh]

erm ... the tests are of the candidate's knowledge of department policy and procedure manuals.

The argument seems to be that if African Americans, on average, have experienced inferior classroom education to their counterparts for social & economic reasons, that a test that relies heavily on book knowledge is biased against African Americans. :doh:

How about studying harder for the test?

What's next Asian's claiming systematic discrimination on strength, speed and endurance standards because their socio-economic background has emphasized book learning over physical fitness?

[BigMike619]

Hahahah - oh god. STFU and study for the test damn it.

This is one of my pet peeves. I am the type of person who still thinks their is a ton of racism and discrimination in the US. But its people like this who cry about irrelevant non-racist **** that makes white people completely tune out other, clearly racist things.

Focus on real racism and forget this ****.

well said duckus :applause:

[Thiebear]

White people have this super secret site: Google
They use it to google the test and study.. those bastards
While the black people spend all their time at extremeskins and never get ahead.

[Henry]

White people have this super secret site: Google
They use it to google the test and study.. those bastards
While the black people spend all their time at extremeskins and never get ahead.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356/saturday-night-live-white-like-me

[Riggo#44]

Hahahah - oh god. STFU and study for the test damn it.

This is one of my pet peeves. I am the type of person who still thinks their is a ton of racism and discrimination in the US. But its people like this who cry about irrelevant non-racist **** that makes white people completely tune out other, clearly racist things.

Focus on real racism and forget this ****.

Yet -- I am willing to bet white males are discriminated against more then any other class...

[Duckus]

http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356/saturday-night-live-white-like-me

HAHAHH. I have never seen that before. Hilarious.

[Duckus]

Yet -- I am willing to bet white males are discriminated against more then any other class...

Don't think so. I think that discrimination against white males is the most overlooked, ignored, and maybe even accepted. But I don't think that in overall volume, it is greater than for any other class. But because it is probably more overlooked, it can feel as if it is more frequent I think.

[MrMarcus1914]

Yet -- I am willing to bet white males are discriminated against more then any other class...
how can you be discriminate against when you make the status que? I never heard a bunch of people complain of how unfair things are, when they make the situation.

[BigMike619]

how can you be discriminate against when you make the status que? I never heard a bunch of people complain of how unfair things are, when they make the situation.

we have a black president now. there are black people in charge in VERy high places. quit hiding behind excuses that were relevant once upon a time.

[Gator Bait]

how can you be discriminate against when you make the status que? I never heard a bunch of people complain of how unfair things are, when they make the situation.

As a white male, I'm less likely to get a scholarship than any other race/gender.

[Duckus]

how can you be discriminate against when you make the status que? I never heard a bunch of people complain of how unfair things are, when they make the situation.

Everyone can be discriminated against. What makes some white people I think so apathetic about dealing with real race issues is that many people believe and tell them that they are just complaining and that their is no anti-white discrimination.

Its a great way to shut off a conversation. Why do they want to talk about it, if no one is going to at least hear what they feel is wrong. Instead we need to acknowledge that discrimination effects everyone, maybe different amounts, but still effects everyone. And then find ways to make sure no one is discriminated against.

Tell white people that they are just complainers gets everyone nowhere.

** Full disclosure, I am a white male

[pjfootballer]

If you know the answer, you pass. If you don't know the answer, you don't pass. Simple as that. I doubt the questions are something like, "If a mercedes is burning in an upper-middle class neighborhood, what means of extinguisher would you use?," are on the test. Ridiculous.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

As a white male, I'm less likely to get a scholarship than any other race/gender.

Yet you're much more likely to get a promotion, mortgage, proper treatment by the police...

White men aren't discriminated against.

The government making attempts to give minorities a leg up because of the institutional racism that exists in this country is not discrimination against white people.

[Duckus]

Yet you're much more likely to get a promotion, mortgage, proper treatment by the police...

White men aren't discriminated against.

The government making attempts to give minorities a leg up because of the institutional racism that exists in this country is not discrimination against white people.

Just because there is not institutional government discrimination, does not mean their is no discrimination at all.

[BigMike619]

Yet you're much more likely to get a promotion, mortgage, proper treatment by the police...

White men aren't discriminated against.

The government making attempts to give minorities a leg up because of the institutional racism that exists in this country is not discrimination against white people.

wow, what a truly ignorant statement. "white men arent discriminated against".

I really thought more of you then this and didnt think you would be so closed off and naive as to believe that minorities had the market cornered on racism and bigotry.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Just because there is not institutional government discrimination, does not mean their is no discrimination at all.

You're missing my point.

I'm saying that race-based policies by the federal government (affirmative action etc) are intended to fight discrimination that exists in the marketplace.

There is in face discrimination, and plenty of it.

[Gator Bait]

Yet you're much more likely to get a promotion, mortgage, proper treatment by the police...
.

actually....equal opportunity laws make promotion harder for a white male....there are quotas companies must meet to fill their minority slots (whether they are qualified or not)

mortgages are given depending on credit scores/jobs/amount of debt to income ratio

The police treatment is universal...I'm a white male, and I've been mistreated by other white male cops.

by the way....to back up my mortgage claim.....I was approved for my mortgage over the phone, and they didn't know what race I was.


You will learn how things really are once you enter the "real world"

[DarrellsMyHero28]

actually....equal opportunity laws make promotion harder for a white male....there are quotas companies must meet to fill their minority slots (whether they are qualified or not)

mortgages are given depending on credit scores/jobs/amount of debt to income ratio

The police treatment is universal...I'm a white male, and I've been mistreated by other white male cops.

Quotas are unconstitutional.

Have been since the 70s.

That argument is invalid.

And the idea that police treatment is universal is laughable.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

wow, what a truly ignorant statement. "white men arent discriminated against".

I really thought more of you then this and didnt think you would be so closed off and naive as to believe that minorities had the market cornered on racism and bigotry.

Any discrimination you face as a white man is exponentially less than any minority faces on a regular basis.

I've been studying this for years, please don't call me ignorant.

I'd be willing to bet that I'm more well versed in this subject than most.

[BigMike619]

Any discrimination you face as a white man is exponentially less than any minority faces on a regular basis.

I've been studying this for years, please don't call me ignorant.

I'd be willing to bet that I'm more well versed in this subject than most.

oh, my bad then. so because it isnt as BIG as a black man's racism experiences it must be minimalized and made in to a non factor.

way to not give everyone their own respect. way to just look out and say that only minorities understand racism.

studying this for years? is that a joke? dude, try living in NE DC growing up and then tell me white people dont experience racism.

[THE OUTSIDER]

White males are discriminated against? Get real.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

oh, my bad then. so because it isnt as BIG as a black man's racism experiences it must be minimalized and made in to a non factor.

way to not give everyone their own respect. way to just look out and say that only minorities understand racism.

studying this for years? is that a joke? dude, try living in NE DC growing up and then tell me white people dont experience racism.

Right.

Because your living in NE DC is obviously more valid than academic research I've been doing.

:doh:

Talk about closed minded.

[MrMarcus1914]

Everyone can be discriminated against. What makes some white people I think so apathetic about dealing with real race issues is that many people believe and tell them that they are just complaining and that their is no anti-white discrimination.

Its a great way to shut off a conversation. Instead we need to acknowledge that discrimination effects everyone, maybe different amounts, but still effects everyone. And then find ways to make sure no one is discriminated against.

Tell white people that they are just complainers gets everyone nowhere.

** Full disclosure, I am a white male
The question is: who is setting the standards? How do you feel discriminated against? Do you feel the system, standardize requirements, are slanted to African, Latino and Asian Americans? To be honest the only white people I see complaining are the broke ones.

[Gator Bait]

Quotas are unconstitutional.

Have been since the 70s.

That argument is invalid.


you are extremely ignorant....they happen every day.


And the idea that police treatment is universal is laughable
man you are so ignorant. real quick to pull that race card huh.

[MrMarcus1914]

You applying to be my biase?

(Sorry. Had to.)
I wish people that supported Gay rights, supported the idea of compensation for free labor; I mean if you want to be fair about everything.

[BigMike619]

Any discrimination you face as a white man is exponentially less than any minority faces on a regular basis.





White men aren't discriminated against.

.


Right.

Because your living in NE DC is obviously more valid than academic research I've been doing.

:doh:

Talk about closed minded.

yeah, you got room to talk.

your own statements make you seem like a hypocrite. and i never once said i was more valid or less valid. i just said your text books and what you have been taught in class dont make you an expert and those statements you make show you need to do some real life experimenting.

[Duckus]

The question is: who is setting the standards? How do you feel discriminated against? Do you feel the system, standardize requirements, are slanted to African, Latino and Asian Americans? To be honest the only white people I see complaining are the broke ones.

I don't think there is government institutional discrimination against white people. But I do think their is bigotry, discrimination, and racism that white people face in their lives.

[Gator Bait]

Right.

Because your living in NE DC is obviously more valid than academic research I've been doing.

:doh:

Talk about closed minded.

typical college punk that thinks he knows everything based on his "experience" try living in the real world! Things are a lot different out here.

[BigMike619]

DMH28..we are going to disagree here and I want to debate you. but I will not call you names and I apologize for calling you ignorant. that was out of line and not a way to open communication.

[Duckus]

This kind of exactly proved my point. That laughing off and denying that white people can face any discrimination completely closes off any good discussion on race and more important issues.

Besides for a few posters, most on here that are white never said that white people have the SAME discrimination as minorities (degree wise, or type).

All they are saying is that white people face discrimination and racism in their own way (whatever degree that is) and they want that to be accepted as well and part of the overall discussion. I think if you accept that and understand it, you will find it much easier to discuss general racism as well, without people being shut off.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

you are extremely ignorant....they happen every day.


man you are so ignorant. real quick to pull that race card huh.


Right, how am I pulling the race card exactly?



yeah, you got room to talk.

your own statements make you seem like a hypocrite. and i never once said i was more valid or less valid. i just said your text books and what you have been taught in class dont make you an expert and those statements you make show you need to do some real life experimenting.

Anti-intellectualism at its best.

You need to do some reading on the subject.

I don't buy your "real life experimenting". I was born in DC, I've lived in and outside DC my entire life. I know what the real world is like, and I've actually studied this subject, and I plan on working in the area in the future.

[Gator Bait]

This kind of exactly proved my point. That laughing off and denying that white people can face any discrimination completely closes off any good discussion on race and more important issues.

Besides for a few posters, most on here that are white never said that white people have the SAME discrimination as minorities (degree wise, or type).

All they are saying is that white people face discrimination and racism in their own way (whatever degree that is) and they want that to be accepted as well and part of the overall discussion. I think if you accept that and understand it, you will find it much easier to discuss general racism as well, without people being shut off.

great post, but don't expect DMH28 to acknowledge that you are correct, he thinks minorities are discriminated against when applying for mortgages....

so big mike....I think you were right on point by calling him ignorant, because that is what he is on this subject.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

typical college punk that thinks he knows everything based on his "experience" try living in the real world! Things are a lot different out here.

Typical internet tough guy who actually has no idea what he's talking about.


DMH28..we are going to disagree here and I want to debate you. but I will not call you names and I apologize for calling you ignorant. that was out of line and not a way to open communication.

No need to apologize Mike, I don't take any offense to it.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

This kind of exactly proved my point. That laughing off and denying that white people can face any discrimination completely closes off any good discussion on race and more important issues.

Besides for a few posters, most on here that are white never said that white people have the SAME discrimination as minorities (degree wise, or type).

All they are saying is that white people face discrimination and racism in their own way (whatever degree that is) and they want that to be accepted as well and part of the overall discussion. I think if you accept that and understand it, you will find it much easier to discuss general racism as well, without people being shut off.

I disagree.

When middle class white guys try and get in on the conversation they try to steer the focus towards themselves when that's not where the real issue is.

I'm not trying to laugh off the idea that white people are discriminated against, obviously it happens to everyone...but the problems rest in the majority (white) discriminating against the minority (non-white).

[MrMarcus1914]

I don't think there is government institutional discrimination against white people. But I do think their is bigotry, discrimination, and racism that white people face in their lives.
Ok in which way? I mean what are you being excluded from? The projects? Do you feel affirmative action discriminates, or mandates a standard that is fair or not?

[Duckus]

You need to do some reading on the subject.

I don't buy your "real life experimenting". I was born in DC, I've lived in and outside DC my entire life. I know what the real world is like, and I've actually studied this subject, and I plan on working in the area in the future.

Having studied it extensively as well and having been surrounded by race relations, community development, and race issues my entire life (its what both my parents do for a living) I will tell you one thing:

Ignoring people's real life experiences, closing it off as invalid, and sticking completely with academic theory and studies will not get you far when dealing with people in the community.

[Gator Bait]

Right, how am I pulling the race card exactly?

"And the idea that police treatment is universal is laughable"





You need to do some reading on the subject.
dude, Malcom X was biased, that doesn't count

I don't buy your "real life experimenting". I was born in DC, I've lived in and outside DC my entire life. I know what the real world is like, and I've actually studied this subject, and I plan on working in the area in the future.
you are 20 years old, probably never had a "career" job, and you are arguing about your real life *experiences*? are you kidding?

I'm five years older than you, lived in two different countries, 5 different US states, former military, career job, college....and I know I can't even pull the "experience card"

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Back to the OP.

What would be interesting is whether this test is actually valid for Firefighting.

Griggs v Duke Power was a case where a power company required an aptitude test that was really unrelated to the work that the employees were going to be asked to do. What actually was happening was that the company was discriminating (whether it was intentional or not) against African-Americans.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1970/1970_124/

[MrMarcus1914]

I got to work sorry I can debate with you guys.

[THE OUTSIDER]

Ok in which way? I mean what are you being excluded from? The projects? Do you feel affirmative action discriminates, or mandates a standard that is fair or not?

There's still "white only" clubs in this nation.

[Gator Bait]

but the problems rest in the majority (white) discriminating against the minority (non-white)

so why isn't all of it a problem? you are pretty much saying that it doesn't matter if white people are discriminated against, because they aren't discriminated against as much as minorities (or for a long enough time)

[BigMike619]

Anti-intellectualism at its best.

You need to do some reading on the subject.

I don't buy your "real life experimenting". I was born in DC, I've lived in and outside DC my entire life. I know what the real world is like, and I've actually studied this subject, and I plan on working in the area in the future.

You dont buy it? What do you think the first thing they say about Eminem is when he got in to rap? They said "white rapper". Did they say black rapper when LL got in? Nope, but they point out his race and it becomes extremely hard for Em to get accepted in the black community. White people that live in urban areas have to prove they are "down" many times more then black people do. And they are still called names, still looked at funny, and still have to prove themselves all over whenever someone new comes in. Like it, downplay it, whatever it still is there.

[BigMike619]

There's still "white only" clubs in this nation.

this is 2 times now youve made some off cuff bull**** remark.

prove this or else stop the nonsense.

[Duckus]

I disagree.

When middle class white guys try and get in on the conversation they try to steer the focus towards themselves when that's not where the real issue is.

I'm not trying to laugh off the idea that white people are discriminated against, obviously it happens to everyone...but the problems rest in the majority (white) discriminating against the minority (non-white).

But you did shut them out. You said:

"White men aren't discriminated against."

Now you might have meaning to say that it is not as prevalent or not as big. But you said, they are not discriminated against, period. And when you say things like that, that is when the discuss shuts down for many.

[Gator Bait]

There's still "white only" clubs in this nation.

There is also a BET

I've never seen a "white only" club in the United States. And I would need proof of that before I believed it.

Try being a white boy and playing basketball on the public neighbor hood court (edit: the one where I grew up....sorry, shouldn't have generalized like that)......forget about it....not happening.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Having studied it extensively as well and having been surrounded by race relations, community development, and race issues my entire life (its what both my parents do for a living) I will tell you one thing:

Ignoring people's real life experiences, closing it off as invalid, and sticking completely with academic theory and studies will not get you far when dealing with people in the community.

I'm not closing them off. All I'm saying is that the reading that I'm doing is based on real life. The idea that college is this liberal environment with no real-life basis is silly. The texts and journals and studies that I'm reading are based on facts from real life instances of discrimination. Its a culmination of real-life experiences.

Obviously there is racism on both sides of the equation, but until minorities control the power structures in this country and start discriminating against white people the real issue lies in the discrimination against minorities.

This is obviously a touchy subject, no one likes being called a racist, but that's not what were talking about here.


Robert Merton created a list of four types of racism, though we can largely ignore Merton’s first type, which is a totally non-racist person. His list ranges from “prejudiced but does not discriminate” to “racism with animus” or people that admit open hostility towards minorities (Shingles, from Merton’s Types of Individual Racism). Thankfully in the 21st century, those who fit into the latter category are few and far between; we have made great strides in that respect since the existence of Jim Crow in the South. However, can a person who fits into Merton’s first category be just as dangerous? As we witnessed in the “Color of Fear” video, many people like David can be ignorant of the racism issues around them, and while they may not be overtly racist, their internal prejudice and naivety contributes to the problem. Knowles and Prewitt attempt to tackle the definition of institutional racism by defining it as a problem not centered on individual bigotry, but rather on policies, laws, and traditions that have a disproportionately negative impact on minorities. Knowles and Prewitt make it clear that these policies can be unintentionally racist and may occur without the presence of conscious prejudice (Knowles and Prewitt). It is here that we see the most frightening problem. As a society, we may be well beyond the issues of lynch mobs and race riots, but we now face a less violent and more dangerous issue.

Merton's Types of Racism:


Type I Not prejudiced and does not discriminate
The ideal citizen: no racism.

Type II Prejudiced, but does not discriminate
A person who is aware of his or her own prejudices, but makes a conscious effort to be aware of these tendencies and not to act on them.

Type III Not prejudiced, but discriminates

A person who believes he/she has no personal prejudice, but who discriminates nonetheless. He or she may go along with the crowd, discriminating against minorities because “everybody else does it;” and “that’s just the way things are here.” The person may be trying not to offend white neighbor and friends or maybe following the
instructions of an employer. Such persons fail to constructively oppose or object to prejudicial remarks and discrimination by others, and likely resists considering the potential harmful effects of their behavior.

Type IV Prejudice and discriminates
Deliberate discrimination.

Type IV-1 Racism without animus. Such persons report they feel no hostility towards minorities. “It is not personal.” They may report actuaries. “Blacks have a higher average poverty rate.” They rationalize discrimination. “It is just business.” They deny harm: “Blacks don’t want to live or work with whites either.”

Type IV-2 Racism with animus. Such persons admit hostility towards, the minority. They express a clear intent to keep the minority “in its place,” and they make no apologies. They are likely to be motivated by fear and self interest.

The problem no longer rests in lynch mobs, it lies in unintentional institutional racism.

[MattFancy]

my brother took the firefighters test in dc and he said that black people get extra points for being a minority. so it doesn't matter if he scored better than the black people because they basically have a built in curve for the test. i think thats a bunch of crap. i think it should be the same for everyone. if you obviously can't do well on the test, maybe you shouldn't be a firefighter!?! i can't stand when people have an excuse for everything, just man up about and study harder or find another job.

[Dictator]

I'm not closing them off. All I'm saying is that the reading that I'm doing is based on real life. The idea that college is this liberal environment with no real-life basis is silly. The texts and journals and studies that I'm reading are based on facts from real life instances of discrimination. Its a culmination of real-life experiences.


So you'd believe BM or anyone else if it were in a text?

[Gator Bait]

I'm not closing them off. All I'm saying is that the reading that I'm doing is based on real life. The idea that college is this liberal environment with no real-life basis is silly. The texts and journals and studies that I'm reading are based on facts from real life instances of discrimination. Its a culmination of real-life experiences.

I've got news for you man....all books are biased! You are reading someone else's interpretation of the facts....they can twist them to say whatever they want. Just like politics and the news (media in general)

for you to say you know about real-life experiences would be like saying you are the master of Medal of Honor and paint ball and that translates you into a capable Marine or Soldier in the armed forces.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

so why isn't all of it a problem? you are pretty much saying that it doesn't matter if white people are discriminated against, because they aren't discriminated against as much as minorities (or for a long enough time)


You dont buy it? What do you think the first thing they say about Eminem is when he got in to rap? They said "white rapper". Did they say black rapper when LL got in? Nope, but they point out his race and it becomes extremely hard for Em to get accepted in the black community. White people that live in urban areas have to prove they are "down" many times more then black people do. And they are still called names, still looked at funny, and still have to prove themselves all over whenever someone new comes in. Like it, downplay it, whatever it still is there.

I understand what you're talking about Mike and maybe I'm doing a poor job of explaining what I'm trying to say. Yes, minorities are racist against white people in many instances. I would argue that everyone is at a very basic level somewhat racist if they've experience other races in their life. The issue lies in the racism that actually has a serious impact on someone's life or well-being.

I'm talking about mortgages, housing discrimination, discriminatory hiring practices, urban segregation, unequal funding for inner-city schools etc.

Let me clarify.

Earlier I said white people aren't discriminated against, which is false. They are, but again, we (as white people, and the majority) are in control (as a race) of the majority of the power structure. As long as that's the case, and as long as minorities are discriminated against, the issue is going to be more focused on minorities.

[Duckus]

I've got news for you man....all books are biased! You are reading someone else's interpretation of the facts....they can twist them to say whatever they want. Just like politics and the news (media in general)

for you to say you know about real-life experiences would be like saying you are the master of Medal of Honor and paint ball and that translates you into a capable Marine or Soldier in the armed forces.

Research and studies are an important part of understand race issues. But so are people's life experiences.

We don't need to downplay one to raise up the other. Both education and experience are important parts.

[BigMike619]

the POTUS is the most powerful job in the world and now held by a black man.

Honestly, people are too touchy and want to point at the other still and say "racist!!". if we just all recognize that we are all discriminated against and we all discriminate we can move to where we fix it.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

So you'd believe BM or anyone else if it were in a text?

There's a process to get published in a peer-reviewed journal.


I've got news for you man....all books are biased! You are reading someone else's interpretation of the facts....they can twist them to say whatever they want. Just like politics and the news (media in general)

for you to say you know about real-life experiences would be like saying you are the master of Medal of Honor and paint ball and that translates you into a capable Marine or Soldier in the armed forces.

Its not like I read just one side. Steven and Abigail Thernstrom are conservative authors (or racial realists) and they agree with your standpoint. Their text book America In Black and White is a very lengthy case against race-based policies.

I'm well aware that texts are biased, that's why you read all sides of the argument.

[Duckus]

I understand what you're talking about Mike and maybe I'm doing a poor job of explaining what I'm trying to say. Yes, minorities are racist against white people in many instances. I would argue that everyone is at a very basic level somewhat racist if they've experience other races in their life. The issue lies in the racism that actually has a serious impact on someone's life or well-being.

I'm talking about mortgages, housing discrimination, discriminatory hiring practices, urban segregation, unequal funding for inner-city schools etc.

Let me clarify.

Earlier I said white people aren't discriminated against, which is false. They are, but again, we (as white people, and the majority) are in control (as a race) of the majority of the power structure. As long as that's the case, and as long as minorities are discriminated against, the issue is going to be more focused on minorities.

That's well put I think, and pretty much on target with how I view things. There are some parts I am not there with you, but overall I understand your point.

Thanks for clarifying.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

the POTUS is the most powerful job in the world and now held by a black man.

Honestly, people are too touchy and want to point at the other still and say "racist!!". if we just all recognize that we are all discriminated against and we all discriminate we can move to where we fix it.

Again, its not about individuals being racist.

Its about practices that have been and continue to be unfair to minorities.

That's where the issue lies. That's why, for example, Affirmative Action exists because of the discrimination in the market.

[Dictator]

unequal funding for inner-city schools etc....words words words...They are, but again, we (as white people, and the majority) are in control (as a race) of the majority of the power structure. As long as that's the case, and as long as minorities are discriminated against, the issue is going to be more focused on minorities.
Maybe you should do a case study on the City of Baltimore, their school system, and who exactly is in charge. Then come back and report your findings.

[Gator Bait]

I understand what you're talking about Mike and maybe I'm doing a poor job of explaining what I'm trying to say. Yes, minorities are racist against white people in many instances. I would argue that everyone is at a very basic level somewhat racist if they've experience other races in their life. The issue lies in the racism that actually has a serious impact on someone's life or well-being.

I'm talking about mortgages, housing discrimination, discriminatory hiring practices, urban segregation, unequal funding for inner-city schools etc.

Let me clarify.

Earlier I said white people aren't discriminated against, which is false. They are, but again, we (as white people, and the majority) are in control (as a race) of the majority of the power structure. As long as that's the case, and as long as minorities are discriminated against, the issue is going to be more focused on minorities.

as Bigmike said before....we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think you are completely wrong and you think I'm completely wrong. When opinions are concerned, there really can't be an undisputed right or wrong answer.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Maybe you should do a case study on the City of Baltimore, their school system, and who exactly is in charge. Then come back and report your findings.

Why don't you just tell me about it and save us some time :)

[gortiz]

I'm sympathetic to a fault when it comes to the struggles minorities and African Americans face in this country ...

but, I draw the line here.

This has to be an article form the Onion ...this can't be real right?

BLACKS DON'T DO WELL ON TESTS ...HOLY CRAP.

If I were African American I would be SEEING RED right now.

[Dictator]

Why don't you just tell me about it and save us some time :)

You wouldn't believe me because I'm not a text book ;)

[Gator Bait]

Research and studies are an important part of understand race issues. But so are people's life experiences.

We don't need to downplay one to raise up the other. Both education and experience are important parts.

very true

[TD_washingtonredskins]

There's still "white only" clubs in this nation.

And there are still all-black colleges and universities. The point?

[DarrellsMyHero28]

You wouldn't believe me because I'm not a text book ;)

Now now don't tease.

If you have something to back up your statements I'll by all means take it into consideration.

[Gator Bait]

There's a process to get published in a peer-reviewed journal.



Its not like I read just one side. Steven and Abigail Thernstrom are conservative authors (or racial realists) and they agree with your standpoint. Their text book America In Black and White is a very lengthy case against race-based policies.

I'm well aware that texts are biased, that's why you read all sides of the argument.

you can't base everything off textbooks though! on a side note....you should read the book "Black rednecks and white liberals" interesting book. Doesn't really argue my opinion or your opinion. very objective book

[DarrellsMyHero28]

And there are still all-black colleges and universities. The point?

There are Historically Black Colleges and Universities, but not all black.

[BigMike619]

Again, its not about individuals being racist.

Its about practices that have been and continue to be unfair to minorities.

That's where the issue lies. That's why, for example, Affirmative Action exists because of the discrimination in the market.

is there really a need for affirmative action still? my boss is black. when i was in the navy our CMC was black. The POTUS is black. what need is there still?

as much as corporations discriminate against black people they also discriminate against people who may not dress as nicely, come from the same background, education.

[Gator Bait]

DMH28:

you still haven't explained why mortgages are racist?????

[DarrellsMyHero28]

you can't base everything off textbooks though! on a side note....you should read the book "Black rednecks and white liberals" interesting book. Doesn't really argue my opinion or your opinion. very objective book

I'm presenting the academic side of the argument, as the only person in this thread (as far as I can tell) who has studied this.

That doesn't make me special. I'm just trying to present my side of the story.

And honestly, I'm a real person as shocking as that may seem. I've lived in a very diverse neighborhood for my entire life, I've been discriminated against by minorities (I'm white) many times in my life.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

is there really a need for affirmative action still? my boss is black. when i was in the navy our CMC was black. The POTUS is black. what need is there still?

as much as corporations discriminate against black people they also discriminate against people who may not dress as nicely, come from the same background, education.

I would say yes.

There are arguments against it. Clarence Thomas doesn't like AA, thinks its insulting to minorities. I would say that there is still a need for it, but hopefully we'll get to a point where we don't need it.

I don't see that happening though.


DMH28:

you still haven't explained why mortgages are racist?????

Mortgages themselves aren't racist.

The problem is, minorities struggle to get loans even when they're qualified.

There are many arguments as to why this happens, one of the most popular being that when a minority family moves into a white neighborhood the white families move out, minority families move in and the housing values go down (because, statistically speaking, minorities have lower incomes).

Massey and Denton's book American Apartheid focuses on this issue. Want to know a surprising, and sad, little tidbit?


According to studies cited in their text, segregation even in the 1890’s was less of an issue than it is today. In the 1890’s, in the most “ghettoized” city in the country, Indianapolis, the average African-American lived in a neighborhood that was 13% black (M& D 13). This pales in comparison to the composition of urban areas in the 20th and 21st century.

[Gator Bait]

I'm presenting the academic side of the argument, as the only person in this thread (as far as I can tell) who has studied this.

That doesn't make me special. I'm just trying to present my side of the story.

And honestly, I'm a real person as shocking as that may seem. I've lived in a very diverse neighborhood for my entire life, I've been discriminated against by minorities (I'm white) many times in my life.

come talk to me the first time you don't get a promotion in favor of a minority who is not qualified for the position! I respect your dedication to "the academic side" but I believe in Life experience over "book education" any day of the week!

ex:

I was an avionics technician in the marines for 5 years. Towards the end of my enlistment I was a QA inspector. Now do you really think the kid coming out of college w/ an electronic engineering degree is a better technician than I am? answer: not even close....he hasn't experienced real life troubleshooting.

You could be the smartest guy on the face of the earth....but does that mean you would be a good President? answer: no.....you must react in real life situations and be able to keep your composure when most people can't.

[Gator Bait]

Mortgages themselves aren't racist.

The problem is, minorities struggle to get loans even when they're qualified.

There are many arguments as to why this happens, one of the most popular being that when a minority family moves into a white neighborhood the white families move out, minority families move in and the housing values go down (because, statistically speaking, minorities have lower incomes).

mortgage applications are color blind. You didn't answer the question. You have no proof that it is harder for a minority to get a mortgage. And if they make less money...than it makes sense they can't get the same house the guy down the street has.

you are really starting to sound like a communist.

[Dictator]

I would say yes.

There are arguments against it. Clarence Thomas doesn't like AA, thinks its insulting to minorities. I would say that there is still a need for it, but hopefully we'll get to a point where we don't need it.


And how do you think you'll know when we get to that point?

[DarrellsMyHero28]

mortgage applications are color blind. You didn't answer the question. You have no proof that it is harder for a minority to get a mortgage. And if they make less money...than it makes sense they can't get the same house the guy down the street has.

you are really starting to sound like a communist.

I never said unqualified people should be given mortgages.

I have plenty of proof, but it comes from a textbook, so why should I bother? Its not from the "real-world".

[Vicious]

I got a B in P.E. black people run faster then me, WAH WAH, I'm suing.

[Kilmer17]

i got a b in p.e. Black people run faster then me, wah wah, i'm suing.

lol.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

And how do you think you'll know when we get to that point?

We won't.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

I got a B in P.E. black people run faster then me, WAH WAH, I'm suing.

:rotflmao:

[Gator Bait]

I never said unqualified people should be given mortgages.

I have plenty of proof, but it comes from a textbook, so why should I bother? Its not from the "real-world".

you are a textbook puppet man....wake up and make your own choices....don't live your life by what a text book has told you.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

you are a textbook puppet man....wake up and make your own choices....don't live your life by what a text book has told you.

And you're an anti-intellectual who apparently thinks that books are useless.

I make my own choices every day, I just choose to make them educated choices.

[BigMike619]

I got a B in P.E. black people run faster then me, WAH WAH, I'm suing.

maybe if we put a Michael Bolton CD at the finish line you would run faster!!

[Gator Bait]

And you're an anti-intellectual who apparently thinks that books are useless.

I make my own choices every day, I just choose to make them educated choices.

all you have done is quoted your biased textbooks....you let them make the decision for you. I'm in college too....so I know college books are extremely opinionated....even history books (you should see my econ book)

I'm sure there is some book out there claiming Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player of all time (he scored 100 points in one game) but everyone one knows MJ is the greatest.

[Gator Bait]

maybe if we put a Michael Bolton CD at the finish line you would run faster!!

:rotflmao:

[DarrellsMyHero28]

maybe if we put a Michael Bolton CD at the finish line you would run faster!!

Why is it that PE teachers always use the worst music?

My Elementary school PE teacher always played "Chatahoochee" when we ran.

I never knew what was being said on the song...I thought it was "way down younder on a shady blue..."

What the hell is Chatahoochee?

**** Alan Jackson!

[DarrellsMyHero28]

all you have done is quoted your biased textbooks....you let them make the decision for you. I'm in college too....so I know college books are extremely opinionated....even history books (you should see my econ book)

I'm sure there is some book out there claiming Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player of all time (he scored 100 points in one game) but everyone one knows MJ is the greatest.

I'm not arguing about textbook bias anymore. Go ahead and tell your professor that those damn liberals are trying to ruin society with their communist dreams in their textbooks.

The idea that textbooks are useless because the authors have an inherent bias is one of the reasons why this country is in the shape its in. Anti-intellectualism ran rampant throughout the Bush Administration and its a disgusting stain on the Republican Party.

I already told you that I've read both sides to the argument.

You clearly ignored that.

[BigMike619]

Why is it that PE teachers always use the worst music?

My Elementary school PE teacher always played "Chatahoochee" when we ran.

I never knew what was being said on the song...I thought it was "way down younder on a shady blue..."

What the hell is Chatahoochee?

**** Alan Jackson!
as leader of the white council i hereby suspend your white privliges for saying **** alan jackson.

you will no longer get front row seats at the celine deion show. ellen degeneres will be removed from your TV and you have to surrender all tight pants and brightly colored polo shirts!!

[Gator Bait]

I'm not arguing about textbook bias anymore. Go ahead and tell your professor that those damn liberals are trying to ruin society with their communist dreams in their textbooks.

I already told you that I've read both sides to the argument.

You clearly ignored that.

no...I just don't believe you

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

mortgage applications are color blind. You didn't answer the question. You have no proof that it is harder for a minority to get a mortgage. And if they make less money...than it makes sense they can't get the same house the guy down the street has.

you are really starting to sound like a communist.


As someone who has studied this a great deal proffesionally (spent 2 years neck deep in HMDA data for my bank) the raw data shows that when you control for risk items (income, credit score, etc.) there is little conclusive evidence of racial or gender discrimination (however there is significant age discrimination, good luck being 70 and looking for a 30 year fixed loan!).

However, if you do not control for credit risk variables it is apparant that certain minority groups have lower approval rates and when approved higher interest rate. I would (and have) state that the actual mortgage process itself has no institutional racism since the application process looks at the data the same way regardless of race (you dont even ask the HMDA race/gender questions until after the application is done).

What appears to be the case is that many minority applications are more likely to be higher risk. One could believe that there is racism somehow involved in making a minority applicant more likely to be higher risk, but that does not mean the mortgage process itself is anything other than color blind.

:2cents:

[DarrellsMyHero28]

as leader of the white council i hereby suspend your white privliges for saying **** alan jackson.

you will no longer get front row seats at the celine deion show. ellen degeneres will be removed from your TV and you have to surrender all tight pants and brightly colored polo shirts!!

****.

Can we have a race draft ala Dave Chappelle?

[BigMike619]

****.

Can we have a race draft ala Dave Chappelle?

for shizzle...

ive always wanted to say that.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

All right.

I have to leave the "real world" and go back to my "communist learning" (class).

Peace.

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

To add to my other post, another factor is where the applicant shopped. When looking at the interest rates charged to applicants that were approved we applied a variable to take into consideration the rate premium charged by that lending institution. For example the local consumer finance branch charges ALL applicants a higher rate than would Wells Fargo's prime branches. Even if a customer that would qualify for a 6% rate at Wells walks into a CitiFinicial branch they are going to get the best rate that institution offers, which may be 7.5%.

If you remove the effect that is found by people applying at different institutions you again see litte credible evidence of racism. What you do see is that minorities are more likely to apply places that charge higher rates. Some explanations are that the high cost institutions are more prominant in minority neighborhoods or that minorities are insecure/uncertain about their credit history leading them to be fearful of rejection of a prime bank.

Again, there is the potential that racism drives minority to higher rate lenders, but no evidence that the process itself is racist.

[THE OUTSIDER]

And there are still all-black colleges and universities. The point?

There's colleges that are almost all black. But they all accept whites. There's still country clubs that still don't allow blacks.

[Big Blue Joe]

And there are still all-black colleges and universities. The point?There are?

[Fishslayer]

Why is it that PE teachers always use the worst music?

My Elementary school PE teacher always played "Chatahoochee" when we ran.

I never knew what was being said on the song...I thought it was "way down younder on a shady blue..."

What the hell is Chatahoochee?

**** Alan Jackson!

The Chatahoochee is a river in Georgia that for the most part separates Georgia and Alabama.

[Fishslayer]

There's a process to get published in a peer-reviewed journal.



Its not like I read just one side. Steven and Abigail Thernstrom are conservative authors (or racial realists) and they agree with your standpoint. Their text book America In Black and White is a very lengthy case against race-based policies.

I'm well aware that texts are biased, that's why you read all sides of the argument.

Social Science majors, what are they good for exactly?

[BigMike619]

There's colleges that are almost all black. But they all accept whites. There's still country clubs that still don't allow blacks.

thats 3 times now youve just popped off without backing any of your claims up.

care to explain or would you just like to continue to look like someone who only wants to stir the ****?

[Dictator]

We won't.

So should we continue AA programs until the end of time?

[Larry]

Admiring just how far some people will chose to run with this topic. (No, I'm not going to point out specific examples.)

"They've gone to plaid."

[BigMike619]

Admiring just how far some people will chose to run with this topic. (No, I'm not going to point out specific examples.)

"They've gone to plaid."

eeeh, buckle this!!

[Yusuf06]

It's an interesting debate. Been going on for years. (Decades, I bet.)

For example, it's been shown for some time that blacks don't do as well on the SAT as other groups.

This causes a lot of people to say that the test is biased. But is it proof?

IMO, it's possible for society to go too far in their efforts to identify and counteract racism.

The way I think of it is: When you get to the point where a disparity in results is considered proof of racism, then you're no longer guaranteeing equal opportunity, you're guaranteeing equal results.
/thread. :cheers:

There absolutely is such a thing as testing bias. It's a part of almost any test. However the question here is whether the bias in the tests is racial....which I very, very seriously doubt. What's probably showing up here is that the black firefighters in question are probably very good at fighting fires but don't have good test taking skills and/or haven't been taught fire/emergency management concepts etc.

Therefore, these firefighters would be much better served by helping their guys study to beat the bias(es) in the test, the concepts being tested, and good test taking methods than whining that the test is racist.

[Yusuf06]

There's colleges that are almost all black. But they all accept whites. There's still country clubs that still don't allow blacks.
Dude, please think for a minute. That's completely irrelevant. What you describe has nothing to do with the testing situation with the black firefighters. Whether someone accepts you into their club (nevermind that these clubs are private, but that's a different issue) or not is completely outside of your control as an individual. However, what you do to prepare yourself for a test is 100% within your control as in individual. Therefore, there's not a lot that someone can put on a test that you can't prepare yourself for.

[Larry]

Whether someone accepts you into their club (nevermind that these clubs are private, but that's a different issue) or not is completely outside of your control as an individual.



I understand that, when asked if he belonged to any private clubs, Groucho Marx once said that he would never consider joining any club that was willing to accept him as a member.

[redskins59]

thats 3 times now youve just popped off without backing any of your claims up.

care to explain or would you just like to continue to look like someone who only wants to stir the ****?

There are tons of white-only clubs. Heck, this republican politician was a member of a white-only club.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/11/candidate_for_rnc_chair_was_me.php

[ldysknzfn1]

This same kind of thing happened here in Chesapeake & Va Beach not too long ago except it was police applicants. Claimed that the math portion of the test was discriminatory against minorities b/c minorities generally scored lower on that portion resulting in not as many minorities making the cut. The VA Beach suit was successful and the test was "revised"(a pc term for dumb down IMO). The justice dept did the investigation and made the city change the test. The same will happen to Chesapeake I suspect. They printed a portion of the test in the local paper so that readers could take it and see for themselves if it was indeed that hard and then you could write in and speak your peace about it. I did. Passed it w/flying colors...I'm not a minority however. I think it's ridiculous to change the whole thing to fit one demographic or the other. Sign o the times I suppose. So if you flunked out of high school math come be a VA BEACH policeman...so what if you can't calculate speed or length or investigate traffic accidents b/c you don't know how to measure or convert inches to centimeters or feet to meters. Amazing!..lol

[twa]

There are tons of white-only clubs. Heck, this republican politician was a member of a white-only club.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/11/candidate_for_rnc_chair_was_me.php


Snort


Congressional Black Caucus on the membership of a white congressman::silly:

Black Caucus: Whites Not Allowed
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0107/2389.html

[Yusuf06]

This same kind of thing happened here in Chesapeake & Va Beach not too long ago except it was police applicants. Claimed that the math portion of the test was discriminatory against minorities b/c minorities generally scored lower on that portion resulting in not as many minorities making the cut. The VA Beach suit was successful and the test was "revised"(a pc term for dumb down IMO). The justice dept did the investigation and made the city change the test. The same will happen to Chesapeake I suspect. They printed a portion of the test in the local paper so that readers could take it and see for themselves if it was indeed that hard and then you could write in and speak your peace about it. I did. Passed it w/flying colors...I'm not a minority however. I think it's ridiculous to change the whole thing to fit one demographic or the other. Sign o the times I suppose. So if you flunked out of high school math come be a VA BEACH policeman...so what if you can't calculate speed or length or investigate traffic accidents b/c you don't know how to measure or convert inches to centimeters or feet to meters. Amazing!..lol
Well, to be fair I can see how this case was different. After all, it doesn't take much brainpower to be a cop. The only "skills" you really need are enough strength to rough up "suspects" (i.e. anyone who isn't a cop) and enough smarts to piece together a good enough lie to get it past a judge (i.e. single digit IQ).

I keed, I keed. Well, sorta. :(

[BigMike619]

isnt math the ONLY thing that is universal on testing?

[SkinsNut73]

We have a similar issue here in CT.

http://www.newhaven20.com/

Quote below from their website. Their case will be heard by the Supreme Court in April.


We are a group of lieutenants and firefighters in the New Haven Fire Department who underwent a grueling multi-phase civil service examination process to qualify for promotions to the command ranks of Captain and Lieutenant. In early 2004, the city needed to fill vacancies in both ranks. Although we were deemed the most qualified candidates, we were denied the promotions because we are White or Hispanic and not enough Black candidates succeeded.

[81artmonk]

I don't understand the mentality that if one cannot perform or pass tests that we must dumb them down in order to not look racist.

Here's a novel concept, how about we expect better.

However, I do believe that alot of parameters should be taken into account for promotion, but dumbing down the tests isn't one that should even be considered.

[Yusuf06]

Holy freakin' crap. Is that a pig I see flying outside my window? It must be because I actually *gasp* agree with something 81 posted.

What is the world coming to?

[BigMike619]

Holy freakin' crap. Is that a pig I see flying outside my window? It must be because I actually *gasp* agree with something 81 posted.

What is the world coming to?

cut your tongue out and burn your eyes!!

[Larry]

I don't understand the mentality that if one cannot perform or pass tests that we must dumb them down in order to not look racist.

Here's a novel concept, how about we expect better.

However, I do believe that alot of parameters should be taken into account for promotion, but dumbing down the tests isn't one that should even be considered.


Holy freakin' crap. Is that a pig I see flying outside my window? It must be because I actually *gasp* agree with something 81 posted.

What is the world coming to?

I mostly agree, too.

The problem I'm seeing is that people are seeing racially differing results, and proceeding immediatly to demanding an instant, racially based, "fix".

1) Group X doesn't do as well on the SAT. Solution: Build a fudge factor into the SAT

2) Group X now scores the same on the SAT, still doesn't get into college. Demand fudge factor in admissions.

3) Group X now gets into college, gets worse grades. Demand fudge factor in grading.

4) Group X now gets comparable grades, doesn't get as many jobs. Demand fudge factor when hiring.

5) Group X now gets hired, doesn't get promoted. Demand fudge factor for promotions.

The problem is, back in step 1, you assumed that the only possible explanation for the score disparity was that the entire concept of a test is racially biased.

When the alternate explanation is that the scores were different, because the subjects didn't receive the training that others got.

The solution isn't fudge factors on the SAT. The solution is better schools for Group X.

[Hubbs]

The way I think of it is: When you get to the point where a disparity in results is considered proof of racism, then you're no longer guaranteeing equal opportunity, you're guaranteeing equal results.

Larry wins this thread.

This is the land of opportunity, not the land of, "you deserve success no matter what." (Unless, of course, you make cars.)

[Hubbs]

The police treatment is universal...I'm a white male, and I've been mistreated by other white male cops.

I'm a white male, too. And this sentence literally made me laugh out loud.

[Hubbs]

White males are discriminated against? Get real.

This, too, made me laugh out loud. This is a funny thread.

[Hubbs]

you are a textbook puppet man....wake up and make your own choices....don't live your life by what a text book has told you.

You know, completely blowing off research is just as dumb as completely living your life by what textbooks say.

[Hubbs]

all you have done is quoted your biased textbooks....you let them make the decision for you. I'm in college too....so I know college books are extremely opinionated....even history books (you should see my econ book)

I'm sure there is some book out there claiming Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest basketball player of all time (he scored 100 points in one game) but everyone one knows MJ is the greatest.

So finding a rogue book that claimed Wilt was the best ever would prove that all books have a pro-Wilt bias. Gotcha.

[Gator Bait]

Hubbs: you seem to be calling out people's responses, but give very little insight yourself.....what is soo funny about me stating that minorities aren't the only ones who get miss treated by the PD?