TO: Vatican buries the hatchet with Charles Darwin

[JMS]

The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin was on the right track when he claimed that Man descended from apes.
A leading official declared yesterday that Darwin’s theory of evolution was compatible with Christian faith, and could even be traced to St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas. “In fact, what we mean by evolution is the world as created by God,” said Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture. The Vatican also dealt the final blow to speculation that Pope Benedict XVI might be prepared to endorse the theory of Intelligent Design, whose advocates credit a “higher power” for the complexities of life.

Organisers of a papal-backed conference next month marking the 150th anniversary of Darwin’s On the Origin of Species said that at first it had even been proposed to ban Intelligent Design from the event, as “poor theology and poor science”. Intelligent Design would be discussed at the fringes of the conference at the Pontifical Gregorian University, but merely as a “cultural phenomenon”, rather than a scientific or theological issue, organisers said.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5705331.ece


Wow.

[skinsfan_1215]

Wow is right... Who saw that coming?

[sacase]

Well this should be an interesting thread if the past is any indicator.

[skinsfan_1215]

You guys think that the fact that the Vatican admits that Darwin was right will influence people enough to get them out of their stone-age thinking?

[Burgold]

Great! Now, what will the schools do. :silly:

That is a shocking turnaround. Might be on the level of the Descartean Compromise although I doubt it will have as much impact.

[Smoot Point Really]

"Descending from Apes"... I'll accept the science behind evolution, but that is one of those Darwinian theories I have too hard of a time swallowing.

[KAOSkins]

"Descending from Apes"... I'll accept the science behind evolution, but that is one of those Darwinian theories I have too hard of a time swallowing.

The thread about the man and his five year old kinda takes the wind out of this line of thought. Actually, I think apes would be a little kinder with their own.

I am surprised by this. Watch the chasm between the protestants/evangelicals and the Catholic church get MUCH bigger.

[Old Bay]

I am surprised by this. Watch the chasm between the protestants/evangelicals and the Catholic church get MUCH bigger.

Sums up my thoughts as well.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Who gives a ****?

Round and round we go with the same arguments...

[Cooked Crack]

I thought the Pope already admitted that a while back ago. I don't understand why there are people who think you can't believe in God if you believe in evolution. We got people out there believing that Jesus rode on dinosaurs. (some elected officials too, that's a damn shame)

[jnhay]

Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that the Church didn't have any problems with evolution. I don't think the theory says anything about how everything was created.

[DCSaints_fan]

I never thought the RCC had much problem with the ToE. At least not in the 20th century. Gregor Mendel, who is considered the father of modern genetics, was a Catholic priest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel

There does come a conflict, however, because the Church's belief in "soul" and how a human soul is different from animal souls. To an evolutionary biologist however, it is all a matter of degree. We are a bit smarter than other great apes, who are a bit smarter than the other mammals, etc. And the view that our behavior is entirely a consequence of instinct and societal pressure, that "choice" is an illusion, would present problem with the Church's view of the world.

[stupidmorals]

I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church has never really been opposed to biological evolution. Ignored it at times, remained indifferent, and gradually become more accepting of it over the last half century or so. As someone pointed out earlier, it has been mostly protestants that object to biological evolutionary theory so completely. Oh, those silly Baptists... :silly:

[JMS]

Great! Now, what will the schools do. :silly:

That is a shocking turnaround. Might be on the level of the Descartean Compromise although I doubt it will have as much impact.

I think the Pope is catching alot of heat from progressives and moderates for trying to roll back Vatican Councel II reforms. John Paul our previous Pope also activelly rolled back Vatican Councel II reforms, but he was a young man when he became pope and was able to take his time in subtly trying to change/influence the churches direction. Pope Benedict is already 82, and doesn't have that kind of time in trying to erase fifty years of Catholic progress..

I see the Darwin stance as a bone thrown to calm upity mainstream Catholics who are still up in arms over Benidicts "compromise" with unrepentant anti semetic, any VCII troglidites...

It's important, It's like when the Vatican apologizing for the Inquisiiton's treatment of Galileo, in 1979!!!.. It's kind of meaningless, but at least in the future we Catholics can say we did it. And who knows some school kid in 2209 might overlook the fact it took the Vatican nearly 400 years to accomplish the task.

It's the ongoing need by a religion which constantly takes faith based positions against science and is often wrong. Every few hundred years you have to clean house and admit what most inteligent people already understand.

(*) Note the Vatican didn't say Darwin was right. They said "he was on the right track". Which is a significant distinction, just in case PeteMP tries to think this changes my position in our previous discussion. There are huge scientific holes in modern evolutionary thought. modern evolutionary thought is not what darwin described nearly 150 years ago. Darwin's origin of the species was wrong and it's been discarded. Modern evolutionists have significantly rewriten the mechanism of change resulting in evolution. The role Darwin plays is as the father of moving us down the scientific path of evolution. The role of modern evolution as a theory is that it is more right or explains more things than any other competing theory; Evolution remains an active pursuit of science today who continue to try to fill the holes.

[Buford]

How hard is it for them to say "God made us Evolve"?

[Burgold]

Curious.

How much weight does Vatican opinion have on Protestant religious thought? Does the Pope's declarations matter to the non Catholic Christian world?

[Bang]

The thread about the man and his five year old kinda takes the wind out of this line of thought. Actually, I think apes would be a little kinder with their own.

Actually they're not. Many great ape species are murderous, warlike, even cannibalistic. Chimpanzees especially. Chimps have been observed and filmed many times making war on neighboring chimp groups. They organize attacks, they set ambushes, they even use sticks and other things as weapons. They will coordinate attacks and literally tear their enemies apart for reasons other than food. They will also eat the vanquished.
Chimps were thought to be herbivores until Jane Goodall discovered they not only eat meat, they will eat their own, and they will organize hunting parties that will act as a team to hunt monkeys.
Gorillas can be warlike among themselves, but not as much as chimpanzees.


As to being surprised,, didn't John Paul say almost the same thing about 10 or so years ago? I don't think he officially recognized evolution, but I do believe he said that the church had to reconsider their position on the matter.

~Bang

[Kilmer17]

How hard is it for them to say "God made us Evolve"?

Very good point.

Anyone else watch Nova last night? Fantastic show about the Dover trial a few years ago.

I still think ID has a place in schools. Just not at the same level,class, or detail as Darwin.

[JMS]

I'm pretty sure that the Catholic Church has never really been opposed to biological evolution. Ignored it at times, remained indifferent, and gradually become more accepting of it over the last half century or so. As someone pointed out earlier, it has been mostly protestants that object to biological evolutionary theory so completely. Oh, those silly Baptists... :silly:

Actually Pope Pius IX called the first Vatican Council 1869 largely to refute and condemn Darwin's theory of Evolution which came out in 1859



Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth." (Vatican Council I)



The Vatican called a truce with Evolution in the 1950's. but this goes further than any statement I've seen before on the subject.

[KAOSkins]

Actually they're not. Many great ape species are murderous, warlike, even cannibalistic. Chimpanzees especially. Chimps have been observed and filmed many times making war on neighboring chimp groups. They organize attacks, they set ambushes, they even use sticks and other things as weapons. They will coordinate attacks and literally tear their enemies apart for reasons other than food. They will also eat the vanquished.
Chimps were thought to be herbivores until Jane Goodall discovered they not only eat meat, they will eat their own, and they will organize hunting parties that will act as a team to hunt monkeys.
Gorillas can be warlike among themselves, but not as much as chimpanzees.


As to being surprised,, didn't John Paul say almost the same thing about 10 or so years ago? I don't think he officially recognized evolution, but I do believe he said that the church had to reconsider their position on the matter.

~Bang

I said their own and I meant their own child. I was aware they can be warlike, as can we of course. I don't believe any great ape kills their own young. That's what I meant. :)

[stupidmorals]

Uh, JMS, I didn't see any mention of biological evolutionary theory in that quote. I'm aware that Vatican I was called in part to see what they should say about biological evolution, and that it was probably the intent of many (most?) to deny it, but I didn't think they actually did. They just said vague reiterations of what the faithful are supposed to do, like not believe things they are forbidden to believe. I could be way off base here, but it seems like they went with a 'wait-and-see' approach and let the faithful decide for themselves, even if the leaning may have been heavily against biological evolutionary theory.

But this is all based on what i remember from a long time ago and my impressions of Catholicism up until now, so maybe I'm not seeing something.

[stupidmorals]

I still think ID has a place in schools. Just not at the same level,class, or detail as Darwin.

ID may have a place in schools, but only in religion and/or philosophy classes. I really can't see how one can classify it as a science, as there really isn't anything scientific about it. Besides, we already have a scientific discipline which describes complexity; it's called Complex Systems Theory.

And I don't mean to hit-and-run, but I already overslept this morning and I'm late.

[Zguy28]

I thought the Pope already admitted that a while back ago. I don't understand why there are people who think you can't believe in God if you believe in evolution. We got people out there believing that Jesus rode on dinosaurs. (some elected officials too, that's a damn shame)


Yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that the Church didn't have any problems with evolution. I don't think the theory says anything about how everything was created.


How hard is it for them to say "God made us Evolve"?That's the problem though, because that is not what is taught.

Where Christianity divides with main stream science is in the fact that science teaches that evolution is a process of random mutations.

So, in that argument, there is no resolution or compatibility between the church and science.

[PeterMP]

This is only a big deal in that it indicates that the Pope isn't going to move backwards on what the previous Pope had said about evolution.

[Kilmer17]

I dont think it matters where it's taught. As long as it's not taught as false.

Also, lots of non scientific topics are taught during science class in various parts of the state. I can remember taking time out of a science class to learn about local civil war history in Leesburg.

[JMS]

As to being surprised,, didn't John Paul say almost the same thing about 10 or so years ago? I don't think he officially recognized evolution, but I do believe he said that the church had to reconsider their position on the matter.

~Bang

Yeah it's kind of gone back and forth with the new Pope. Originally the Catholic position in the mid 1800's was Darwin was wrong. Then in the early 1900's it became Who is Darwin? Then in the 1950's it became, Darwin's theory is an interesting idea, but it doesn't really apply to man.

The new Pope has written on both sides of the issue in the last four years. So the the official Catholic position was in question. It looks like it's a step towards the center.



You were thinking of Paul II's speach of October 22 1996



In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory


however in the same address Pope Paul II said this..



"Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man."


Also Howerver as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger wrote this.



The clay became man at the moment in which a being for the first time was capable of forming, however dimly, the thought of "God." The first Thou that--however stammeringly--was said by human lips to God marks the moment in which the spirit arose in the world. Here the Rubicon of anthropogenesis was crossed. For it is not the use of weapons or fire, not new methods of cruelty or of useful activity, that constitute man, but rather his ability to be immediately in relation to God. This holds fast to the doctrine of the special creation of man . . . herein . . . lies the reason why the moment of anthropogenesis cannot possibly be determined by paleontology: anthropogenesis is the rise of the spirit, which cannot be excavated with a shovel. The theory of evolution does not invalidate the faith, nor does it corroborate it. But it does challenge the faith to understand itself more profoundly and thus to help man to understand himself and to become increasingly what he is: the being who is supposed to say Thou to God in eternity.

– Joseph Ratzinger


And as Pope Joseph Ratzinger position has become this.



We cannot say: creation or evolution, inasmuch as these two things respond to two different realities. The story of the dust of the earth and the breath of God, which we just heard, does not in fact explain how human persons come to be but rather what they are. It explains their inmost origin and casts light on the project that they are. And, vice versa, the theory of evolution seeks to understand and describe biological developments. But in so doing it cannot explain where the 'project' of human persons comes from, nor their inner origin, nor their particular nature. To that extent we are faced here with two complementary -- rather than mutually exclusive -- realities.

– Cardinal Ratzinger, In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_and_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#Pope_John_ Paul_II

[JMS]

Uh, JMS, I didn't see any mention of biological evolutionary theory in that quote. I'm aware that Vatican I was called in part to see what they should say about biological evolution, and that it was probably the intent of many (most?) to deny it, but I didn't think they actually did. They just said vague reiterations of what the faithful are supposed to do, like not believe things they are forbidden to believe. I could be way off base here, but it seems like they went with a 'wait-and-see' approach and let the faithful decide for themselves, even if the leaning may have been heavily against biological evolutionary theory.

But this is all based on what i remember from a long time ago and my impressions of Catholicism up until now, so maybe I'm not seeing something.

The Catholic Church never excommunicated the Protestant Darwin if that's what you mean. Nor did the Catholic Church officially ban his book Origin of the Species. But the First Vatican councel was called partially because of Darwin (most famous ruling of Vatican Councel I was the infalibility of the Pope proclaimed in 1870). In that Councel Catholics did re-afirm that any scientific theory which refutes church doctrine must be held by all Catholics to be in Error. Everybody in the day understood these paraphrased words were talking about Darwin, and Creationism was Catholic doctrine at the time.

[alexey]

ID should be taught in history classes along with other religiously motivated human confusions and deceptions.

[GibbsFactor]

It's the how, not the why...

[Kilmer17]

ID should be taught in history classes along with other religiously motivated human confusions and deceptions.

I agree. The Democrat party and Obama need to be taught in History class.

[hokie4redskins]

It's the how, not the why...

Winna!

There is nothing "wow" about this. Science and Catholicism do not conflict no matter how much people try to claim otherwise. Science, evolution, whatever, only helps us understand the plan. Science doesn't invent. It discovers.

Not sure how Catholics got pegged as anti-evolution. Popes of yesteryear weren't the only ones to slam Darwin. Pretty much everyone was blasting "Origin" for half a century. I don't think any devout Catholic with an iota of rational thought wouldn't deduce legitimacy of the theory. The bible-thumpers, OTOH? Protestants claim them.

Regardless, no matter how advanced science gets, it will NEVER answer the question "why?"

[JMS]

This is only a big deal in that it indicates that the Pope isn't going to move backwards on what the previous Pope had said about evolution.

I think you are mostly right. I think the un prefaced "down the right tract" statement actually goes a little further than previous Catholic statements on Darwin, which tended to separate man from beast and apply evolution only to beasts. "Special Creationism".

I also think with recent moves by Pope Benedict, signs that he's not going to go backwards on the Churches position on evolution are news.

[Bang]

That's the problem though, because that is not what is taught.

Where Christianity divides with main stream science is in the fact that science teaches that evolution is a process of random mutations.

So, in that argument, there is no resolution or compatibility between the church and science.

I don't think science teaches that the evolution of species is random at all. The mutations occur as a result of environmental causes. Whether it's to evolve a protection from predators, or an ability to breathe on dry land, or a heavy coat to keep warm.. it all happens as a result of necessity for the survival of the species. Other species that don't adapt end up extinct, either as food for those who did mutate or simply being unable to cope with the changing environmental stresses.

I agree with what someone else wrote above.. I don't see why it would be such a big deal to figure that evolution would be part of God's plan anyway. It certainly seems to follow, evolution is very efficient, and the belief is that God is infallible, so such an efficient method of developing species being divine in origin would make sense.

But then there's the teaching conundrum. Is the thinking that because God is infallible, that doesn't leave any room for changing the lessons as new information becomes available? Apparently the Pope doesn't think so.

~Bang

[BigMike619]

I honestly dont believe in evolution. I believe that apes are very close to humans but that they are their own seperate creature as are we.

Dolphins like to have sex for pleasure...dont see people comparing them to humans.

[PeterMP]

I think you are mostly right. I think the un prefaced "down the right tract" statement actually goes a little further than previous Catholic statements on Darwin, which tended to separate man from beast and apply evolution only to beasts. "Special Creationism".

I also think with recent moves by Pope Benedict, signs that he's not going to go backwards on the Churches position on evolution are news.

SO FAR, the lifting of the ex-communication has been over blown. None of them have been restored to their positions as Priests.

If that happens, it is a different story.

[JMS]

I don't think science teaches that the evolution of species is random at all. The mutations occur as a result of environmental causes. Whether it's to evolve a protection from predators, or an ability to breathe on dry land, or a heavy coat to keep warm.. it all happens as a result of necessity for the survival of the species. Other species that don't adapt end up extinct, either as food for those who did mutate or simply being unable to cope with the changing environmental stresses.


I believe ZGuy28 is correct. Evolution teaches that genetic diversity occurs randomly and consistantly on a sufficiently large population, it's the survival of the progeny with said diversity which is non random and based upon environment. Likewise the progress of evolution is inconsistand and based upon the survival and sucess of the diversity traites in the population.




But then there's the teaching conundrum. Is the thinking that because God is infallible, that doesn't leave any room for changing the lessons as new information becomes available? Apparently the Pope doesn't think so.

~Bang

It's not the teaching thing. It's the bible thing. Fundimentalists believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. The book of Genisis directly refutes Darwin, so for them that's a done deal. That is at the basis of most of the problems Christans have with Science. Where exactly that line lies between a literal interpretation and a modern interpretation represents the changing relationship between science and moderate Christians, like mainstream Catholics..

At the time of the early Church Aristotle's teachings are what passed for modern scientific understanding of our world and they were literally written into the bible. When Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo came along and proved Aristotle wrong, they then were also casting doubt on the Bible. Darwin is no different from Galileo, except Galileo was more in your face about it... Putting the Popes words into a diolog coming out of the mouth of a character he named simplicus.....( or moron..)... That's why we almost had to burn him at the stake... He was forcing the issue.

[PeterMP]

I don't think science teaches that the evolution of species is random at all. The mutations occur as a result of environmental causes. Whether it's to evolve a protection from predators, or an ability to breathe on dry land, or a heavy coat to keep warm.. it all happens as a result of necessity for the survival of the species. Other species that don't adapt end up extinct, either as food for those who did mutate or simply being unable to cope with the changing environmental stresses.

I agree with what someone else wrote above.. I don't see why it would be such a big deal to figure that evolution would be part of God's plan anyway. It certainly seems to follow, evolution is very efficient, and the belief is that God is infallible, so such an efficient method of developing species being divine in origin would make sense.

But then there's the teaching conundrum. Is the thinking that because God is infallible, that doesn't leave any room for changing the lessons as new information becomes available? Apparently the Pope doesn't think so.

~Bang

The mutations themselves are believed to be random or at least appear random.

The selection process is non-random in that it is based on the pressures in the environment (which might be based on random events or not).

[PleaseBlitz]

Good way to get the attention of their reinstating of a Holocaust-denying bishop.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/09/AR2009020902099.html

[PeterMP]

Good way to get the attention of their reinstating of a Holocaust-denying bishop.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/09/AR2009020902099.html

He wasn't reinstated just un-excommunicated.

[JMS]

SO FAR, the lifting of the ex-communication has been over blown. None of them have been restored to their positions as Priests.

If that happens, it is a different story.


I totally disagree with you on that one. Fact is Pope Benedict has fundimentally reinterpretted Vatican councul II almost from the first day of his Papacy. For Example, He proclaimed that salvation could only be achieved through Jesus Christ; which is fundimentally different than "all people of faith" written in Vatican Counsul II.

Now Pope Benedict evaporates the self imposed excommunications of unrepentant VCII obstructionists? They are fundimentally against 50 years of Church teachings!!

The only reason Pope Benedict is now putting a caviot on his raising the excommunications is because Catholics and People of Faith all over the world are condemning his action...

Frankly, he's embarressed the institution.

[PleaseBlitz]

He wasn't reinstated just un-excommunicated.

Either way, it caused a HUGE stir in Europe and just looks really bad.

[JMS]

Good way to get the attention of their reinstating of a Holocaust-denying bishop.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/09/AR2009020902099.html


Williamson is a particularly offensive anti-semetic freak. A vocal proponent of anti-semetic ideas, who appears rational, if you bring no understanding to what he's discussing...

What is lost in the focus on Williamson is that some of the reforms of Vatican Counsul II which all these folks refuse to come into line with were designed to change and reject systemic anti-semitism which historically existed in the Catholic church and still exist for many Christian faiths today.....

Like Jews could not be reconsiled in heaven, or that Jews were responsible for Jesus's death. The fact is the tens of thousands of fundimentalist Catholics who left the church because of VCII, broke from the church themselves based on their beliefs. Some of which are very troubling. Reconciling with them with not resolving these issues, even if Williamson wasn't such a gadfly for contriversy is still a terrible terrible move and moves the church backwards and away from the light of mutual respect for all people's beliefs.

[Predicto]

I seem to recall visiting the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington DC way back in the 1960s and seeing a large mozaic on the ceiling depicting evolution - including some very cool looking dinosaurs.

[Vicious]

Catholic church has been saying all sorts of stuff lately, no hell, aliens don't disprove god, etc.

[Califan007]

Good way to get the attention of their reinstating of a Holocaust-denying bishop.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/09/AR2009020902099.html
What does that say about us if we can be so easily distracted by a seemingly non-story?

[GibbsFactor]

What does that say about us if we can be so easily distracted by a seemingly non-story?


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

As if that's new.

[Califan007]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

As if that's new.
:rotflmao:

True lol...

[Big Blue Joe]

I thought the Pope already admitted that a while back ago. I don't understand why there are people who think you can't believe in God if you believe in evolution. We got people out there believing that Jesus rode on dinosaurs. (some elected officials too, that's a damn shame)I don't see why it's a damn shame. I would think the overwhelming majority of religions believe in supernatural occurences without any empirical evidence to support them.

[GibbsFactor]

I like what the Vatican is doing. Changing with the times. As scientific theory is proven, there's no reason to not accept it. You look foolish if you do.

[Elessar78]

I just had an albino try to kill me for reading this thread.

[mjah]

ID should be taught in history classes along with other religiously motivated human confusions and deceptions.


I agree. The Democrat party and Obama need to be taught in History class.
Good point. "Obama's a closet Muslim," "Obama's a Socialist," "Democrats aren't patriots," etc. should be studied in the Elaborate Self-Deceptions study unit.

Sadly, though, with all the time reserved for "Saddam's WMDs," "Cheney's Liberators," "Mission Accomplished," and "We were never 'stay the course,'" that unit is already full.

[zoony]

I've never really understood why the Catholic Church is always at the center of these controversies about evolution and science, etc.

Most Catholics I know including every Priest I've ever had have been among the most enlightened and educated when it comes to science, astronomy, technology, etc. Hell, the Big Bang theory was developed by a Catholic Priest. And the Catholic Church funds science projects all over the world.

The conversation should revolve around the born-agains and Baptists. Spend 4 minutes with one and you'll see what I'm talking about.

....

[techboy]

I've never really understood why the Catholic Church is always at the center of these controversies about evolution and science, etc.

It's only because they, unlike protestants, have a central authority to issue edicts, and there are a lot of Catholics. Everyone else is too decentralized. You do occasionally, though, get stories out of other official bodies, like when the Southern Baptist Convention decides things have been going too smoothly...

Plus, the Pope has a cool hat.

[PleaseBlitz]

I just had an albino try to kill me for reading this thread.


:rotflmao:

[zoony]

Plus, the Pope has a cool hat.


and a startling resemblence to Emporer Palpatine :paranoid:

[Corcaigh]

I've never really understood why the Catholic Church is always at the center of these controversies about evolution and science, etc.

....

Partly due to having a centralized voice, and partly because the protestant groups get a free pass because everyone knows they are total ****ing nutjobs?

[Zguy28]

Partly due to having a centralized voice, and partly because the protestant groups get a free pass because everyone knows they are total ****ing nutjobs?I guess that's better than being a jackass...

[PeterMP]

I guess that's better than being a jackass...
You just need a couple of more centuries of practice. ;)

[Jumbo]

I agree. The Democrat party and Obama need to be taught in History class.
I assume you're correctly separating out Bush and the republican party since that should be taught in an advanced psychopathology course at a graduate level.

By the way, zoony, you're right. :silly:

And I have more than one hope that approaches faith, and the one I'm thinking of now is, given much, much, time, some forms of ignorance will indeed dwindle. :)

[techboy]

and a startling resemblence to Emporer Palpatine :paranoid:


Partly due to having a centralized voice, and partly because the protestant groups get a free pass because everyone knows they are total ****ing nutjobs?

Corcaigh, I find your lack of faith... disturbing.

[Sticksboi05]

"Descending from Apes"... I'll accept the science behind evolution, but that is one of those Darwinian theories I have too hard of a time swallowing.

Our DNA isn't extremely identical to chimpanzees for nothing. Just look at how they act. Go down to the zoo and observe the great apes, it's amazing how similar we are on a basic level.

[SpringfieldSkins]

So now they will take evolution from the non-believers just like the winter solstice.

[PeterMP]

So now they will take evolution from the non-believers just like the winter solstice.

And next we'll have kings and queens and heads of states bowing to our every whim and we'll control the world. THE WORLD I TELL YOU!!!!!


oh right- that already happened. Well maybe we'll just settle on taking all of the ice cream this time.

[Zguy28]

And next we'll have kings and queens and heads of states bowing to our every whim and we'll control the world. THE WORLD I TELL YOU!!!!!


oh right- that already happened. Well maybe we'll just settle on taking all of the ice cream this time.If you get the Pizza too I'm in...oh wait...pizza...Italy...nevermind.

[techboy]

And next we'll have kings and queens and heads of states bowing to our every whim and we'll control the world. THE WORLD I TELL YOU!!!!!


oh right- that already happened. Well maybe we'll just settle on taking all of the ice cream this time.

Rome's got gelato, and that's better anyway. Pizza too!