Terry Bradshaw's comments on the Skins and JC

[morpheusmeyers]

I just got back from the Richmond Forum at the Landmark Theatre in Richmond, VA. Tonight's speakers were Terry Bradshaw and Howie Long.

There was a Q&A session near the end of the program. An audience member asked Bradshaw what it will take to get the Redskins back to the Super Bowl. While Bradshaw didn't answer the question directly he did provide a few comments about the state of the Skins. Here are the cliff notes...

Said he is concerned about the team's starting quarterback, though he really liked the kid coming out of Auburn.

Said the team is set at the RB position.

Said that the team needs some help on the OL. Howie chimed in with the fact that he thinks Skins had the oldest starting OL last season.

Said last year's team started strong at 6-2 and fizzled down the stretch, and that's not a sign of a good team.

I found Bradshaw's comments about JC concerning partly because it was the 1st thing he mentioned about the Skins. Bradshaw acts like a clown on TV but he is a 4 time Super Bowl winner and 2 time Super Bowl MVP and is a good judge of the QB position. Thoughts from folks?

Other interesting comments from the Q&A session...

When asked if Bill Cowher will return to coaching, both Bradshaw and Long said definitely. Bradshaw said he is surprised Cowher hasn't returned already.

When asked about a Michael Vick return to football, both Bradshaw and Long said they think he will definitely be reinstated. Long said he thinks 12-14 teams will be interested in Vick, though they don't want to leak that publicly because Vick is still a major hot topic.

[IbleedBnG83]

Thanks for posting.

If nothing crazy happens, JC will start and this will be it for him.

[morpheusmeyers]

Thanks.

I wish Howie had answered the question about the Skins, too. Only Bradshaw did.

[zskins]

I think Bradshaw is biased. He really likes Colt.

[Lavarleap56]

I think Bradshaw is biased. He really likes Colt. So does S. Juergensen and J.Madden

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

I think Bradshaw is biased. He really likes Colt.I thought that was Billy Dee Williams.

http://bfcgroup.com/helluvatough/billydeesign.jpg

[JeepRyder]

Yep Madden said Colt had the "IT" Factor. Im pulling for JC but i am interested to see what colt does in preseason now with a year under his belt.

[zskins]

I thought that was Billy Dee Williams.

http://bfcgroup.com/helluvatough/billydeesign.jpg

Let's not forget about Snyder as well. He likes people to wear and drink Colt in his stadium. ;)

[jgibbsfootball]

I like Colt also

[Haynesworth_Mancrush]

Cutler's better.

[flexxskins]

I like Colt alsoThe beer or our QB?

I'm getting confused.:confused:

[skins2victory]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter.

-The comment that was made about us starting 6-2 and then falling off, is directly related to the comment that we have the oldest O-Line in the league. After the half way point of the season they were tierd and beat up. That is when the team started to play horrible, there was no protection, which means fewer completions. There were also absolutly no holes for portis to run threw, he still was able to put up # because that is what portis does, the # just werent as good as the fisrt part of the season, when the line was fresh and healthy and could make some holes.

[hfmonk]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter.

-The comment that was made about us starting 6-2 and then falling off, is directly related to the comment that we have the oldest O-Line in the league. After the half way point of the season they were tierd and beat up. That is when the team started to play horrible, there was no protection, which means fewer completions. There were also absolutly no holes for portis to run threw, he still was able to put up # because that is what portis does, the # just werent as good as the fisrt part of the season, when the line was fresh and healthy and could make some holes.

I think that Zorn sees JC as filler for 2 years while Zorn teaches Colt how to run the offense and uses JC as an example of how not to do it. It may backfire and JC could cement himself as starter but I doubt it.

[skins2victory]

I think that Zorn sees JC as filler for 2 years while Zorn teaches Colt how to run the offense and uses JC as an example of how not to do it. It may backfire and JC could cement himself as starter but I doubt it.

Why do say say that?? It dosent make any since to me, if he wanted colt to be the starter for the skins some day, practice and experience are the best way to learn. It would be better to make chemistry with the 1st string team as soon as possible. But the fact is he is the 3rd string QB, he dosent even get many reps with the 2nd stringers.

[skins2victory]

All I know is Zorn is the coach, I for one like Zorn and if he picks JC to start over Colt then I agree with him, that is what he gets paid to do. I do think JC could have done better last year, but the O-Line and another new Offence were also a part of it. He should NOT get all of the blame. JC will get another shot at it this year, im sorry Colt fans, but he isnt going to start in any games this year unless there are injuries. If JC fails this year then maybee its time to look eles were but its too soon.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter.

-The comment that was made about us starting 6-2 and then falling off, is directly related to the comment that we have the oldest O-Line in the league. After the half way point of the season they were tired and beat up. That is when the team started to play horrible, there was no protection, which means fewer completions. There were also absolutly no holes for portis to run threw, he still was able to put up # because that is what portis does, the # just werent as good as the fisrt part of the season, when the line was fresh and healthy and could make some holes.


If JC was that good why not open up the competition to squash any controversy? That would take a lot of heat off of not only JC but Zorn as well if JC gets off to a rocky start this season.

lets face reality, there is only one reason that I can see why you wouldn't even think about opening the competition up with a QB of JC's caliber, and that is Danny boy is going to the mats with JC and this is the final season. Why would any one be worried about a 6th rd pick out playing JC? What harm could possibly be done? Well most of us who have watched JC play know what will in all liklyhood happen if JC has to compete for the starting job.

[Snagletooth]

I think that Zorn sees JC as filler for 2 years while Zorn teaches Colt how to run the offense and uses JC as an example of how not to do it. It may backfire and JC could cement himself as starter but I doubt it.


You are very wise. All things are now clear.

[alwaysaskin]

Well, by replacing Kendall with Dock we got a little younger, but still, Jansen in pass protection gives me nightmares, Rabach is a human holding penalty and we need to get younger. I'd like Oher and Wood and maybe a Guard.

[tibbidoe]

I am still unclear why Colt Brennan has been chosen as the answer to all things QB to some people...

But, but... he was a late-round pick, just like Tom Brady.
...and he eats his eggs the same way Peyton Manning does...
...and he has even heard of Joe Montana...
blah blah blah

Wait until he fights his way into the starting lineup (or even to the backup spot) before you bring him his crown and throw rose pedals in front of him when he walks around. (Not that I think JC is much better to this point)

I could be wrong, but I'll wait until it happens to fully admit it...

[RedSunday]

So does S. Juergensen and J.Madden

Why, I mean everyone loves the back up but why do they like him so much?College was college....he has no pro games to base that on.

[terpfan44]

ISaid that the team needs some help on the OL. .

I found Bradshaw's comments about JC concerning partly because it was the 1st thing he mentioned about the Skins. Bradshaw acts like a clown on TV but he is a 4 time Super Bowl winner and 2 time Super Bowl MVP and is a good judge of the QB position. Thoughts from folks?




it was on their show...after the Cardinals were trounced by the Pats in the snow...that your "good judge" called the Cards an "embarrassment to the league"...that inspired them to move through the playoffs and do so well

those two are a sideshow..Howie blames us Skins fans for Ford Motor dumping his "Tough Guy" promo with F-150..after he refused to name Pat Ramsey who was the top vote getter..and the complaints that followed got him axed

and Terry...he has never liked the Skins...period

[SWFLSkins]

If JC was that good why not open up the competition to squash any controversy? That would take a lot of heat off of not only JC but Zorn as well if JC gets off to a rocky start this season.


________________________________
This is not HS football. A pro team does have competition, but to undermine your starter by stating he is at risk at the QB spot is not productive at all. If you or I knew what was said behind closed doors in relation to the QB spot then we might actually be able to comment on how cemented JC is as the starter. I am sure JC knows what he must do to keep his job. Meanwhile Colt can learn and prepare as if he is going to play at any giving time, like any back-up should do. Todd Collins, well I think the clipboard is going to Colt.

[Larry Brown #43]

So does S. Juergensen and J.Madden

I like Colt too...but if I recall correctly, Sonny was in love with the idea of acquiring Jeff George (and even recommended it) back in 2000. I love Sonny to death, but there's a reason he's not a GM. :D

In all seriousness though, I really do hope Colt gets a true chance to show what he can do before his time in DC is done.

[DieselPwr44]

Why, I mean everyone loves the back up but why do they like him so much?College was college....he has no pro games to base that on.

Let's see...

The purer passer sits on the bench while the game manager plays in front of him.

Yeah, Sonny would know nothing about that. :rolleyes:

[Burgold]

I think that Zorn sees JC as filler for 2 years while Zorn teaches Colt how to run the offense and uses JC as an example of how not to do it. It may backfire and JC could cement himself as starter but I doubt it.

I don't think that's possible. I don't think that Zorn thinks that Zorn has that long a leash. Basically, for your scenario to play out the coach would have to have three unsuccessful years and remain coach while grooming the kid. Zorn doesn't have the pedigree or the contract or a blown up team growing up together. This team is designed for now. Zorn wins or he's out of here. At least that's the mentality I think he should be in.

[RedSunday]

Let's see...

The purer passer sits on the bench while the game manager plays in front of him.

Yeah, Sonny would know nothing about that. :rolleyes:


Never said Sonny didn't know football ,I'll ask you again....why?

[RedSunday]

[
quote=Larry Brown #43;6245345]I like Colt too...but if I recall correctly, Sonny was in love with the idea of acquiring Jeff George (and even recommended it) back in 2000. I love Sonny to death, but there's a reason he's not a GM. :D



Me too ,Sonny is great but he has loved every Skins QB till the team doesn't win then he moves on,and Sonny has always loved the back up....no matter who it is.

[zskins]

Why, I mean everyone loves the back up but why do they like him so much?College was college....he has no pro games to base that on.

One doesn't need to see a pro game to see a player throwing the ball accurately and only where his WR can catch it.

Did you know Colt beat out Matt Ryan on College Football Challenge when it came to accuracy. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EjhNYsp7fM&feature=related

[da#1skinsfan]

seems like pretty standard generic "uh oh i didnt do my homework for this question let me come up with something quick" answer from an analyst.

eh.

[Bang]

Said he is concerned about the team's starting quarterback, though he really liked the kid coming out of Auburn.
A non-answer. What does "concerned" mean? Does Terry see something in his mechanics? Something in his demeanor? Is he learning too slow?
'splain, Lootzie.


Said the team is set at the RB position.
Pretty obvious. However, Portis' habit of wearing down at the end of a season is troubling.


Said that the team needs some help on the OL. Howie chimed in with the fact that he thinks Skins had the oldest starting OL last season.
Anything "inside" about this that any casual fan doesn't know?


Said last year's team started strong at 6-2 and fizzled down the stretch, and that's not a sign of a good team.
Anything "inside" about this that any casual fan doesn't know?


I found Bradshaw's comments about JC concerning partly because it was the 1st thing he mentioned about the Skins. Bradshaw acts like a clown on TV but he is a 4 time Super Bowl winner and 2 time Super Bowl MVP and is a good judge of the QB position. Thoughts from folks?

I don't know,, sounds like Terry reeled off some comments that didn't really give any further insight, or shine any light on where we are.
I don't mean to rain on the parade, and I'm sure it was a really cool thing to attend, so i hope my comments aren't construed as just being nitpicky.




Other interesting comments from the Q&A session...

When asked if Bill Cowher will return to coaching, both Bradshaw and Long said definitely. Bradshaw said he is surprised Cowher hasn't returned already.

When asked about a Michael Vick return to football, both Bradshaw and Long said they think he will definitely be reinstated. Long said he thinks 12-14 teams will be interested in Vick, though they don't want to leak that publicly because Vick is still a major hot topic.
I'd be surprised if Vick is reinstated, and I'd be further surprised if that many teams felt the risk was worth the chance. He's been out of football for 3 years,, no trainers, no practice, nothing. He had a lot of talent, but I don't know that anyone can drop it and pick it back up like that.

~Bang

[Larry Brown #43]

seems like pretty standard generic "uh oh i didnt do my homework for this question let me come up with something quick" answer from an analyst.


Thing is, 75% of the posters here on ES could supply more useful insights and info about the Skins than Terry or Howie or just about any other national broadcaster, simply because we follow our team intimately, and they just follow league-wide trends, major stories, etc. Sure, they prep for their Sunday show on Fox, but the idea that they could tell us something insightful about the Skins in the middle of March that we don't already know is very unlikely.

Just because Chris Matthews discusses politics for a living on TV, doesn't mean he knows more about the political climate in Thailand than a regular Thai person who lives in Bangkok.

And this is not to say that we have a bunch of geniuses running around here on ES-- it's just that we follow the Skins 1,000 times more closely than Terry or Howie do.

[moondog]

Of course he mentioned Campbell - he is the biggest factor in whether or not we are successful this upcoming season. Yes, there is much to be said of our o-line as well, but ultimately it comes down to his play this year. It's a contract year, his second year in this offense, his third year as a full-time starter...if he can't get it done this year, he's gone. I'm concerned too. I hope he does well and am still on the fence. I think he's a good QB, he just seems (so far) unable to reach his potential.

[NewCliche21]

Thing is, 75% of the posters here on ES could supply more useful insights and info about the Skins than Terry or Howie or just about any other national broadcaster, simply because we follow our team intimately, and they just follow league-wide trends, major stories, etc. Sure, they prep for their Sunday show on Fox, but the idea that they could tell us something insightful about the Skins in the middle of March that we don't already know is very unlikely.

Just because Chris Matthews discusses politics for a living on TV, doesn't mean he knows more about the political climate in Thailand than a regular Thai person who lives in Bangkok.

And this is not to say that we have a bunch of geniuses running around here on ES-- it's just that we follow the Skins 1,000 times more closely than Terry or Howie do.

Ding ding ding.

As amazing as those two were as players, they're still just talking heads at this point. I'm not saying that they don't know a thing or two about football, but they have 32 teams to cover, and we only have one.

[Taylor 36]

I thought that was Billy Dee Williams.

http://bfcgroup.com/helluvatough/billydeesign.jpg
HAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!! That is GREAT!!!! :cheers:

[PROSCOUT]

I think that Zorn sees JC as filler for 2 years while Zorn teaches Colt how to run the offense and uses JC as an example of how not to do it.

Perhaps the single most rediculous and most absurd thing ever posted on this board.

Here is somebody saying and believing that an NFL coach is starting a QB for TWO years just to show people how NOT to play! Unbelievable.

Shouldn't there be some sort of intelligence test or IQ test before allowing someone to posting?

[Taylor 36]

I am still unclear why Colt Brennan has been chosen as the answer to all things QB to some people...

But, but... he was a late-round pick, just like Tom Brady.
...and he eats his eggs the same way Peyton Manning does...
...and he has even heard of Joe Montana...
blah blah blah

Wait until he fights his way into the starting lineup (or even to the backup spot) before you bring him his crown and throw rose pedals in front of him when he walks around. (Not that I think JC is much better to this point)

I could be wrong, but I'll wait until it happens to fully admit it...Kind of hard to win a fight that you are kept from being in, isn't it?

[NewCliche21]

Kind of hard to win a fight that you are kept from being in, isn't it?

Huh? He's not kept from being in the fight until he's cut.

I don't think that you guys understand that coaches want to win as badly as, if not more than, we do. If Colt's the better player, then he'll be in.

[Backpack3r]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter.


Zorn also thinks that Randle El is a good punt returner

[RedSunday]

I guess I'm just trying to understand how this is all JC's fualt?He was having a very good year till the O and D line went south on him,lets not forget that hurt the running game but noone here is screaming for Portis's head.I like Colt but I don't see that he will be an answer or any QB till we get an O line that can keep him standing up and make holes for the run game.:logo:

[corrupt3d]

Kind of hard to win a fight that you are kept from being in, isn't it?


Kind of hard to win a fight when your coach doesnt think you'll win it either.

[HailGreen28]

A non-answer. What does "concerned" mean? Does Terry see something in his mechanics? Something in his demeanor? Is he learning too slow?
'splain, Lootzie.

Pretty obvious. However, Portis' habit of wearing down at the end of a season is troubling.

Anything "inside" about this that any casual fan doesn't know?

Anything "inside" about this that any casual fan doesn't know?

I don't know,, sounds like Terry reeled off some comments that didn't really give any further insight, or shine any light on where we are.
I don't mean to rain on the parade, and I'm sure it was a really cool thing to attend, so i hope my comments aren't construed as just being nitpicky.



I'd be surprised if Vick is reinstated, and I'd be further surprised if that many teams felt the risk was worth the chance. He's been out of football for 3 years,, no trainers, no practice, nothing. He had a lot of talent, but I don't know that anyone can drop it and pick it back up like that.

~BangProof again your radio hour is more informative than most "talking head" segments on TV.

And with even Jerry Jones getting tired of circuses in Dallass, who would take Vick anytime soon? Is there a team that needs that kind of buzz, like the Bills taking TO only even worse?

[Santana_89]

the state of the Skins. Here are the cliff notes...

Said he is concerned about the team's starting quarterback, though he really liked the kid coming out of Auburn.

Said the team is set at the RB position.

Said that the team needs some help on the OL. Howie chimed in with the fact that he thinks Skins had the oldest starting OL last season.


I found Bradshaw's comments about JC concerning partly because it was the 1st thing he mentioned about the Skins. Bradshaw acts like a clown on TV but he is a 4 time Super Bowl winner and 2 time Super Bowl MVP and is a good judge of the QB position. Thoughts from folks?



I agree with Terry. I'm most worried about JC and if he takes a HUGE step and becomes a more consistent.Being able to read the defense faster and STOP!!!!!!!!!!! locking onto his primary receiver # 89?

I hope that I'm wrong about JC but something tells me that what we've seen so far with him, is all that there is to see.

[THE TRUTH DETECTOR]

I could have won 4 Super Bowls if I had the players Bradshaw had around him

[Tarantula]

Bradshaw is just another person with an opinion. Super Bowl wins, MVPs, etc mean nothing in the realm of scouting a player or team.

[HawaiianTime]

Bradshaw is just another person with an opinion. Super Bowl wins, MVPs, etc mean nothing in the realm of scouting a player or team.


True, his opinions are his opinions, but an observation from an expert is regarded with greater consideration than a person that stayed at the local Residence Inn.

[titus3]

Kind of hard to win a fight when your coach doesnt think you'll win it either.

kind of hard to win a fight when the winner has been declared by the coach before the fight even starts.

[gobigred]

It don't matter what JC do are Colt does you fair weather fans will only support anybody for a short time. This is the city that hates QB. JC has played 4 years in 4 different offenses with a not so good line but all you blame is the qb. Some of you are real haters.

[fnkdctr(007)]

If JC drank colt 45?

[Mahons21]

It don't matter what JC do are Colt does you fair weather fans will only support anybody for a short time. This is the city that hates QB. JC has played 4 years in 4 different offenses with a not so good line but all you blame is the qb. Some of you are real haters.

-Sorry I don't blame Santana Moss... what was it we traded for him again? ohh ya Lav Coles
-Sorry I don't blame Portis a top 10 rb since he's been in the league
-Sorry I don't blame Cooley what was he a 3rd rounder?
-Sorry I don't blame the rookies, it doesn't seem fair they get hate after 1 season but Campbell gets 4 and his poor play is still excused.


-The line is the line but its not like we gave up alot to get anyone on the line, and they receive too much blame in my opinion..
-Fact of the matter is JC cost us A LOT and we haven't gotten A LOT from him at all, so yes there is going to be disappointment.

-And I think you will be hard pressed to find a skins fan who doesn't support Campbell, they don't have faith in Campbell very big difference, and at least there opinion is based on history (fact) not the future(your own opinion).

[DCMONEY]

Not that he can't have an opinion but Bradshaw IMO was one the most over rated QB's of all time. Talent wise he was average. His TD to INT ratios was paltry to me. In 2 of the Steelers early Superbowls his play and the QB play was average to below average at best, yet they still won Superbowls because of the strong defenses they had. Just like this years Steelers team. The QB play in the regular season wasn't strong at all but the defense was strong statistically, strong at getting pressure, producing sacks and turning the ball over. People mention the Skins defense this year was good. They were stat wise but they didn't pressure the QB or get TO's. Anyway the Steelers in 1974 season as a team had like 12 td's and 21 int's but won the Superbowl. He(Bradshaw) had 2 great WR's and a great running game along with a great defense. He was't that accurate. He turned the ball over a lot but they still won. People sometimes confuse a person's ability with the team's success. Sometimes people confuse a person's ability on the lack of success a team has too. In team Sports its the reason I hate when people are quick to yell well how many Championships does that person have. I've like so what? Its a team sport. Thats a crazy criteria when talking about an individual.

[DCMONEY]

-Sorry I don't blame Santana Moss... what was it we traded for him again? ohh ya Lav Coles
-Sorry I don't blame Portis a top 10 rb since he's been in the league
-Sorry I don't blame Cooley what was he a 3rd rounder?
-Sorry I don't blame the rookies, it doesn't seem fair they get hate after 1 season but Campbell gets 4 and his poor play is still excused.


-The line is the line but its not like we gave up alot to get anyone on the line, and they receive too much blame in my opinion..
-Fact of the matter is JC cost us A LOT and we haven't gotten A LOT from him at all, so yes there is going to be disappointment.

-And I think you will be hard pressed to find a skins fan who doesn't support Campbell, they don't have faith in Campbell very big difference, and at least there opinion is based on history (fact) not the future(your own opinion).


Paying a alot for Campbell and not putting him in a situation conducive for winning isn't good management. I don't understand your logic. So if a team gives up a lot for a QB, have him play in several different systems in the 1st few years of his career, then have him play behind an aging banged up line, he's still should produce? I'e been witing for a long time for someone to name a QB thats produced under that scenario. Thats not a good formula for success. Now if you're like some on this forum and you don't feel that the O-line play in the last 8 games was that bad then I don't know what to say.

[Mahons21]

Paying a alot for Campbell and not putting him in a situation conducive for winning isn't good management. I don't understand your logic. So if a team gives up a lot for a QB, have him play in several different systems in the 1st few years of his career, then have him play behind an aging banged up line, he's still should produce? I'e been witing for a long time for someone to name a QB thats produced under that scenario. Thats not a good formula for success. Now if you're like some on this forum and you don't feel that the O-line play in the last 8 games was that bad then I don't know what to say.

-What exactly does Campbell need to win? He's got a top 5 rb, and defense, a deep threat, a top 5 TE, and a line that is more than adequate (look at NE's stats the past two seasons for proof of how a qb's play determines how an o-line looks). Why were Portis' numbers down to you ask? Probably because he was our only threat and teams put 8 to 9 in the box... daring us to throw... and putting Campbell under pressure... what happened? Our offense hit a brick wall.
-I don't buy this several systems garbage... a route is a route, football is football, a slant is still a slant a fade is still a fade (I would love to see him complete one of these... oh ya thats right he can't because he is unaware of how to put touch on the ball). How come Matt Ryan, Big ben and so on can just come in and learn there systems so quickly, yet Campbell can't learn any system. Obviously you will excel with more time in a system, but Campbell has spent time in systems and his problems in all systems remain the same, he's inaccurate, holds onto the ball too long, no pocket presence and he runs out of bounds when scrambling out of the pocket(Is that ****ing serious?, how dumb do you have to be? to not know to just throw the ball at the ****ing stands). It doesn't matter the system its still the same old Campbell

[RocketCitySkins]

-What exactly does Campbell need to win? He's got a top 5 rb, and defense, a deep threat, a top 5 TE, and a line that is more than adequate (look at NE's stats the past two seasons for proof of how a qb's play determines how an o-line looks). Why were Portis' numbers down to you ask? Probably because he was our only threat and teams put 8 to 9 in the box... daring us to throw... and putting Campbell under pressure... what happened? Our offense hit a brick wall.


You pick and choose stats. The defense is 4th in stopping the run and the pass but bottom of the league in creating turnovers/opportunities for the Redskins not to start at their own 20 every drive. Someone posted figures a few weeks ago on the drives that broke down around the opponents 40 yd. line in the second half of the season. A clear indication of the age and injury to the o-line having to go the entire length of the field on most drives.
The o-line is good in run blocking but ranked bottom of the league in pass protection. I stumbled across an interview today by an NFL reporter done with Portis at the SuperBowl. Here's Portis' take on what happened in the 2nd half of the season.

Tom Curran
"One month ago, I spent a few minutes talking to Clinton Portis at the Super Bowl. What went wrong, I asked, with a team that was 6-2 and finished 8-8? What happened with Jason Campbell, the Redskins quarterback who didn't throw a pick until week nine?
Protection for Campbell and open holes in the running game, was the reply. It was that simple"

[veteranskinsfan]

Mahons 21- I agree with your comments. The missing link is good performance out of our quarterback position. When you see rookie quarterbacks on other teams come in and perform well it has to make people wonder what is up with J.C.? Also, I think former quarterbacks who have been successful in the NFL like Jurgensen or Bradshaw know what they are talking about when they evaluate JC's capabilities or question his decision-making.

[Tarantula]

True, his opinions are his opinions, but an observation from an expert is regarded with greater consideration than a person that stayed at the local Residence Inn.

He's an expert at what, playing QB?? Well that's fine a dandy, but playing the position doesn't mean you're an expert at measuring another QB's talents.

[trap]

JC proved he could play the first half of the season Vinny needs to get him a LITTLE protection so he can look down field instead of running for his life . even the average football fan understands it all starts up front, well maybe not vinny but jc can play just give the guy alittle time in the pocket DAMN!!!!

[morpheusmeyers]

those two are a sideshow..Howie blames us Skins fans for Ford Motor dumping his "Tough Guy" promo with F-150..after he refused to name Pat Ramsey who was the top vote getter..and the complaints that followed got him axed


Howie said last night that he likes for the Skins to do well. He does live in the area, in Charlottesville.

[morpheusmeyers]

I don't know,, sounds like Terry reeled off some comments that didn't really give any further insight, or shine any light on where we are.
I don't mean to rain on the parade, and I'm sure it was a really cool thing to attend, so i hope my comments aren't construed as just being nitpicky.

I'd be surprised if Vick is reinstated, and I'd be further surprised if that many teams felt the risk was worth the chance. He's been out of football for 3 years,, no trainers, no practice, nothing. He had a lot of talent, but I don't know that anyone can drop it and pick it back up like that.

~Bang

I don't construe your comments as nitpicky at all and you are right, Terry's comments didn't shine any new light on where the Skins are as a team. I just found it interesting that when asked about the Skins the 1st thing a Hall of Fame QB states is that he is concerned about the team's starting QB.

I think Vick will be reinstated once he serves his time, but I don't think the Commissioner will be in any rush to reinstate him. I am surprised by Howie's comment that 12-14 teams would be interested in Vick. I was thinking 2-4, tops.

[HawaiianTime]

He's an expert at what, playing QB?? Well that's fine a dandy, but playing the position doesn't mean you're an expert at measuring another QB's talents.


Funny how when a 4 time SB winner, 2 time SB MVP, former NFL QB, now analyst's opinion is less than a none SB, former NFL QB, now analyst Ron Jaworski, or a none SB, former NFL QB, first time OC/HC Jim Zorn. Let's see, does it help that Terry is a Hall of Famer?? Probably not because you selectively chose who is an expert and who isn't. Well, in the real world, I think Terry has more credentials than Ron or Jim.

[Mahons21]

You pick and choose stats. The defense is 4th in stopping the run and the pass but bottom of the league in creating turnovers/opportunities for the Redskins not to start at their own 20 every drive. Someone posted figures a few weeks ago on the drives that broke down around the opponents 40 yd. line in the second half of the season. A clear indication of the age and injury to the o-line having to go the entire length of the field on most drives.
The o-line is good in run blocking but ranked bottom of the league in pass protection. I stumbled across an interview today by an NFL reporter done with Portis at the SuperBowl. Here's Portis' take on what happened in the 2nd half of the season.

Tom Curran
"One month ago, I spent a few minutes talking to Clinton Portis at the Super Bowl. What went wrong, I asked, with a team that was 6-2 and finished 8-8? What happened with Jason Campbell, the Redskins quarterback who didn't throw a pick until week nine?
Protection for Campbell and open holes in the running game, was the reply. It was that simple"

-I don't try to pick and choose stats, I defense was top 5 ranked by points per game, a pretty accurate indicator of defenses. No they don't get turnovers but they don't allow points, are we seriously to the point we blame our D, because of offensive inefficiencies.

-What Portis' said is in agreement with my take on the situation. Teams stacked the box and blitzed heavily, this takes away both the run game/forces qb to make quick decisions and Campbell didn't do well. There are no holes, and protection becomes slack unless you call for extra protection TE's etc, but when we had to do this Campbell apologists claim there isn't enough people running routes.

-You also completely neglect many other valid points I made and act as if they don't exist, i.e. how a qb's play can make an o-line look bad, or about how teams stacked the box against us visually. There was a link for a Moss interview and his take on the situation(offensive inabilities), it began teams started blitzing a lot more.

[IbleedBnG83]

JC is on the hot seat. And unfortunately his ability to pick things up is not as fast as he "needs" them to be right now. I think he can be good. But it won't happen in the burgundy and gold.

[RedSunday]

I could have won 4 Super Bowls if I had the players Bradshaw had around him


With that D .............he should have won more!:D

[DCMONEY]

-What exactly does Campbell need to win? He's got a top 5 rb, and defense, a deep threat, a top 5 TE, and a line that is more than adequate (look at NE's stats the past two seasons for proof of how a qb's play determines how an o-line looks). Why were Portis' numbers down to you ask? Probably because he was our only threat and teams put 8 to 9 in the box... daring us to throw... and putting Campbell under pressure... what happened? Our offense hit a brick wall.
-I don't buy this several systems garbage... a route is a route, football is football, a slant is still a slant a fade is still a fade (I would love to see him complete one of these... oh ya thats right he can't because he is unaware of how to put touch on the ball). How come Matt Ryan, Big ben and so on can just come in and learn there systems so quickly, yet Campbell can't learn any system. Obviously you will excel with more time in a system, but Campbell has spent time in systems and his problems in all systems remain the same, he's inaccurate, holds onto the ball too long, no pocket presence and he runs out of bounds when scrambling out of the pocket(Is that ****ing serious?, how dumb do you have to be? to not know to just throw the ball at the ****ing stands). It doesn't matter the system its still the same old Campbell


Ist off IMO Campell did perform this season. His #'s as I've stated before are on par or better than some of the playoff QB's this past season. And for you to say what you're saying in regards for a QB switching systems. The Qb position is the most important postion to me. How can you sit up and say that switching systems every year doesn't matter? I'm questioning your knowledge og the game. You just wrote a slant is a slant and a fade is a fade. Let me school you to something, they don't just walk up to the line and say man run a fade or slant etc. There's a lot of terminology, formations etc that go into every Off coordinators system. Some offenses are timing based. Some offensive lines use zone blocking. Every offense isn't the same. So Campbell in his 1st year in this offense had a 84.3 rating and completed over 60% of his passes is in accurate huh? Kerry Collins for instance made the playoffs had a 80.3 rating and 58% completion %. He was only sacked 8 times and. He only threw for 2600 yds Why wasn't the Titans able to throw the ball? Obviously the Titans won despite a lack of production from him. He(Collins) gets a lot of credit for the turn around of the Titans. He didn't do Jack stat wise. People don't look at the total situation as to why a team is having success or having a lack of success. The bottom line is when I came to the conclusion of the Skins season, the most glaring thing that came to mind to me was trench play.

[rd421]

It seems to me that this organization has lost faith in JC, though Colt shows promise he is at best en extremely rough prospect. JC is the best option that we have BUT that does not make him a good qb just our best option...Who knows what will happen but it looks like if this kid does not only have a lights out year butprove that he is gonna be an elite qb for years to come.....he's gone. This is a team thaat thinks it can win now NOTHING going forward will shock me...

[Mahons21]

Ist off IMO Campell did perform this season. His #'s as I've stated before are on par or better than some of the playoff QB's this past season. And for you to say what you're saying in regards for a QB switching systems. The Qb position is the most important postion to me. How can you sit up and say that switching systems every year doesn't matter? I'm questioning your knowledge og the game. You just wrote a slant is a slant and a fade is a fade. Let me school you to something, they don't just walk up to the line and say man run a fade or slant etc. There's a lot of terminology, formations etc that go into every Off coordinators system. Some offenses are timing based. Some offensive lines use zone blocking. Every offense isn't the same. So Campbell in his 1st year in this offense had a 84.3 rating and completed over 60% of his passes is in accurate huh? Kerry Collins for instance made the playoffs had a 80.3 rating and 58% completion %. He was only sacked 8 times and. He only threw for 2600 yds Why wasn't the Titans able to throw the ball? Obviously the Titans won despite a lack of production from him. He(Collins) gets a lot of credit for the turn around of the Titans. He didn't do Jack stat wise. People don't look at the total situation as to why a team is having success or having a lack of success. The bottom line is when I came to the conclusion of the Skins season, the most glaring thing that came to mind to me was trench play.

-It was not his first year in a WCO, ya the terminology is different but that really shouldn't affect the qb alone that much. Formation? Seriously?
-Look at what happened to the Titans in the playoffs, you need a franchise qb.
-Stats aren't always the story look at Ben Roethlisberger.
-A fade is a fade a slant is a slant.

[DCMONEY]

-It was not his first year in a WCO, ya the terminology is different but that really shouldn't affect the qb alone that much. Formation? Seriously?
-Look at what happened to the Titans in the playoffs, you need a franchise qb.
-Stats aren't always the story look at Ben Roethlisberger.
-A fade is a fade a slant is a slant.

:doh::doh: Nevermind

[SirClintonPortis]

Ohhh, Titans choked because they fumbled the ball away too many times when in scoring position and lost Chris Johnson, who was torching the Ravens D. As if that wasn't obvious.

[NastyBoy]

I think Bradshaw is biased. He really likes Colt.


So does S. Juergensen and J.Madden

It's all some contrived conspiracy!!! Don't you guys realize that none of these 3 have any real football prowess? :doh:


[



Me too ,Sonny is great but he has loved every Skins QB till the team doesn't win then he moves on,and Sonny has always loved the back up....no matter who it is.

There's a reason for this. With the exception of a select 1 or 2 since Joey T, our starting QB's have sucked donkey stones. Why on earth WOULDN'T you be pulling for the backup to get a chance when what you're seeing in the starting lineup isn't getting the job done?


It don't matter what JC do are Colt does you fair weather fans will only support anybody for a short time. This is the city that hates QB. JC has played 4 years in 4 different offenses with a not so good line but all you blame is the qb. Some of you are real haters.

Hater in the house!

Good grief would you please stop with the "this is the city that hates QB's" b.s.

Clearly you have no idea what's happening in most NFL cities across the country..........and make it seem discussions such as this happen much more frequently here. Visit Philly one of these days and let me know what's happening there. Go to Minnesota, or Buffalo, or visit Jets country. How about Carolina or Oakland. I could continue, but honestly it isn't worth the extra typing. Your claim is baseless.

We'll support a QB long-term when we land one who deserves and earns long term support, and not a second sooner.

[ktfirehouse]

If JC was that good why not open up the competition to squash any controversy? That would take a lot of heat off of not only JC but Zorn as well if JC gets off to a rocky start this season.

exactly....now i was the same guy calling for JC when Brunell was struggling but i haven't been impressed with nothing he does other than pick up first downs by running. But it seems to me as though the redskins got tired of shuffling QB's and just decided to stick with a QB and develop him no matter how much regression they showed (not saying JC has regressed, just saying if he would have i dont think the skins would have even made a change).

If it was just another QB we wanted to see then MAYBE it would be another case of skins fans overacting, but when you have all of these greats (Bradshaw, Howie, Madden, Troy, etc.) saying there is something they like about CB, you don't even take a closer look as the FO??? If you can say that JC is going to be the starter next season after going only 8-8 and the offense only putting up 16.6 ppg, am i suppose to believe that no one on our roster can do better? Especially seeing how Collins stepped in strong last year and the promise that CB show.

POINT BLANK, if JC is the best pick as our starter, fine, no problem...then why not have an open competition since he is soooo much more "gifted" then the others we have....he would obviously win the comp right? and there will be no more "Start CB threads, New Offense crap, 1st full year under coach, he had the chicken pox" or whatever other excuse they use. I tired of hearing excuses when the excuse is owned by a player on another team in the same situation (new offense - matt ryan.....new coach - falcons, weak o-line - STEERLERS):doh:

[Mahons21]

:doh::doh: Nevermind

-Sorry just didn't really want to have to get into this again... but here it goes
-Campbell success this season, you site his increased accuracy and passer rating, both can be attributed to the amount of times he checked the ball down.

-The whole systems complaint I don't really by because many other first round qb's have caught onto their systems in their first season, and Campbell has run a WCO before don't forget.

-Formation, Terminology, etc... does change thats why you have an offseason, thats why you study the playbook, you are paid millions of dollars to do so, if other qb's can get it done that much faster it leads me to believe Jason won't ever get it done.

-His line, no it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't half as bad as majority of Campbell excusers believe it was.... Line's can be made to look bad by the qb as I have stated, NE gave up like 12 sacks with Brady but Cassell lead the league in sacks last year... think that was because the line got so much worst? Or Cassell dealt with pressure much worst, and teams know what to do when a qb can't deal with the pressure... Keep on bringing it.

-What happened with Campbell? Teams saw he did horrible against the pressure so they brought it, doing so also helped stuff the run, but allowed for the occasional run to be busted, if you get by the blitz.

-The receivers weren't great but qb's have done a lot more with worst receiving cores, Moss was a top 5 WR but 3 years ago with Brunell and I bet you don't even remember who his #2 at the time was.

-Yet Campbells problems still remain, its not as if he's calling the wrong play(which might be due to new playbook) or as if teams are rushing 4 and dropping into coverage and successfully pressuring him(the false belief many people here believe). He's throwing a 90 mph fastball to receivers and not in stride, he's throwing 10 feet above their head, he doesn't throw to open spaces he throws to open receivers(can't do this against an NFL zone defense, may be man). He doesn't go through his reads quickly and frequently checks down, to recievers in front of the first down marker. These problems all remain constant no matter the system, no matter the coach, no matter the line, that is Jason Campbell in a nutshell, he was a 1st round reach and we failed. Its not secret he played on one of the best teams in College Football and thats probably why he had success... both his rb's were drafted top 5.

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

I thought that was Billy Dee Williams.

http://bfcgroup.com/helluvatough/billydeesign.jpg

Hahaha! Billy Dee!

He was actually a good friend of my mom's back in the day. (Hopefully they weren't drinking Colt 45 together....) But I haven't seen the guy since like '96, when he was fresh off the battery charge.

One minute he slurpin' down the malt,
next minute he's arrested for assault.

[blkqb17]

Terry Bradshaw is the same one that said Zorn and Campbell were a good marriage. Alot of people on here blamed Jason Campbell for the 2-6 finish, but it was the O-line wearing down and the WR drops is what killed us. Gone back and watch the Raven, Beangals, and 49ers games for the proof .

[Mahons21]

The 2-6 decline, was the teams fault, not Campbell's not the o-line, not the receivers, not the Defenses but the teams. And what happens when a team does bad? You have to analyze the leaders, coaches, qb's etc.. However our defense came out ranked quite well at the end of the season, so we are forced to put our offense in question.. so both Zorn and Campbell are on the hot seat.
-The offense is in question... and its quite notable... so who should step up? The leader of the offense, he was given week upon week to step up to the plate and ensure a Redskins playoff birth, yet he didn't step up, didn't step up at all. And no Portis isn't the leader though he may be the hot shot, the qb is the leader of the offense. Campbell isn't a leader, he may one day succeed again if he has pro-bowl team surrounding him, but until then he will remain a sub-par qb, not the franchise qb the skins so desperately need.

[cphil006]

This will be make or break for JC.

[cphil006]

Terry Bradshaw is the same one that said Zorn and Campbell were a good marriage. Alot of people on here blamed Jason Campbell for the 2-6 finish, but it was the O-line wearing down and the WR drops is what killed us. Gone back and watch the Raven, Beangals, and 49ers games for the proof .

I always thought S. Moss would be our next Gary Clark, but what it seems is he is more worried about looking smooth then playing with fire.

Clark played with Passion. Moss plays for a paycheck and to have some fun when he wants.

Those are harsh words I know, but in my opinion, that is what I observed.

[eljeasel]

Here goes a breakdown of my thoughts on alot of these popular, but perhaps incorrect conclusions present on ES.

-Campbell success this season, you site his increased accuracy and passer rating, both can be attributed to the amount of times he checked the ball down.

Yes and No. Check out this stat. Its the yard per attempt split into first and 2nd halves of the season (not games).

1st half ypa: 7.6
1st half INTs: 0
1st half TDs: 8
1st half games with rating of 90 or above: 6
2nd half ypa: 5.4
2nd half Ints: 6
2nd half TDs: 5
2nd half games with rating of 90 or above: 0

Why does this matter? He played his best ball int he first half of the season, the only thing youd want to see more of is a higher number of TDs but when you play that mistake free, it might not matter (outside of fantasy football). Notice how 7.6 ypa is a pretty high number and even though its a team stat, it shows Campbell's part too. In the first half of the season Z's offense attacked and Campbell was sharp spreading the ball over the field including downfield in a budding vertical attack. If you checkdowned too much, youd expect the ypa to be down around 6 or sub 6. Also notice how his stats plummet when the O starts relying on underneath along with Campbell checking down. He plays well when you let him pass downfield and 6-2 tells me that he was checking down when he was supposed to, not too much. To say this its soley Jason Campbell flatly ignores the rest of the team.

-The whole systems complaint I don't really by because many other first round qb's have caught onto their systems in their first season, and Campbell has run a WCO before don't forget.
-Formation, Terminology, etc... does change thats why you have an offseason, thats why you study the playbook, you are paid millions of dollars to do so, if other qb's can get it done that much faster it leads me to believe Jason won't ever get it done.

This is kind of one point so I will adress it as one. Jason Campbell played in a WCO before. And his great play in the first half of the season would have lead you to believe this was the breakout we were waiting for. Who knows how different this playbook is from any other WCO. Of course, instead of adding to the playbook, Z strangely took plays out, shrinking the playbook. The result, an offense so conservative that players, opponents, and announcers all commented that the Redskins rarely even run routes beyond the first downmarker late in the season. Not even Gibbs was that conservative.

Also, Z has commented that he didnt even have his playbook finished by the start of the year. Are you saying Campbell should have learned a playbook that didnt even exist?


-What happened with Campbell? Teams saw he did horrible against the pressure so they brought it, doing so also helped stuff the run, but allowed for the occasional run to be busted, if you get by the blitz.

This is flat out false. Campbell is not bad against the blitz

Lets do a breakdown of QBs in the division under the blitz

Romo
96 completions out of 164 attempts for 58%. 1335 yards, 6TDs, 6INTs, 59 first downs, 8 sacks

McNabb
108 Completions out of 196 attempts for 55%. 1388 yards, 10tds, 4 ints, 64 1sts and 11 sacks

Manning
97 completions out of 191 attempts for 50%. 1188 yards, 4 TDs, 6 ints, 64 1sts and 15 sacks.

Campbell
106 out of 176 for 60%. 1188 yards, 4 TDs, 4ints, 64 1sts, 13 sacks.

Hes at least as good as everyone in the division outside of McNabb. And Considering Romo and McNabb both missed at least a half of football and both have more attempts against blitzes doesnt that mean teams blitzed Campbell less than other qbs at least as far as the NFCE goes?

Teams didnt have to blitz especially when Samuels's knee wore down. You cant put TEs over both the Tackles to help and expect an offense to do anything. Teams got pressure and early sacks with 5,4, and even 3 rushers.

-The receivers weren't great but qb's have done a lot more with worst receiving cores, Moss was a top 5 WR but 3 years ago with Brunell and I bet you don't even remember who his #2 at the time was.

Yeah, that was great, but what was different back then? Let me suggest we look at the line.

28 year old Samuels
25 year old Dock
28 year old Rabach
29 year old Thomas before 2 season ending injuries, one to the lower body
28 year old Jansen again with some serious season enders

Also, Santana had a 1000 yard season, not a great example of showing that Campbell cant use his weapons. No, the real difference between this team and that team is RZ offense. In 2005-2006 Sellers had 7 receiving TDs all RZ TDs. People give Gibbs crap for being old school, fact is, that brutal old school offense worked, especially in the RZ. It wasnt great, but it scored more than we have in the years following.

What do we do now with Sellers? Let him swan dive? We only threw to him 2-3 times in the RZ. One was a TD, one bounced off his hands (maybe it was Campbell throwing too hard, I put that one on big mike). Theres the offensive woes, its all RZ. Check my sig.


-Yet Campbells problems still remain, its not as if he's calling the wrong play(which might be due to new playbook) [Z is calling the plays not Campbell] or as if teams are rushing 4 and dropping into coverage and successfully pressuring him(the false belief many people here believe) [its not false, see above, hes not struggling against the blitz].

He's throwing a 90 mph fastball to receivers and not in stride, he's throwing 10 feet above their head, he doesn't throw to open spaces he throws to open receivers(can't do this against an NFL zone defense, may be man) [this may be true, but until we get receivers who actually run good routes Im not sold on this].

He doesn't go through his reads quickly and frequently checks down, to recievers in front of the first down marker[this is contrary to his coaches saying hes going too fast through his reads? And if there are 4 routes that all are run short of the 1st down marker who is that on?].

These problems all remain constant no matter the system, no matter the coach, no matter the line, that is Jason Campbell in a nutshell, he was a 1st round reach and we failed

Not really, he has always put up enough yards, the only this he doesnt do well is put up gaudy TD numbers. Considering we have struggled in the RZ all the way back to 2005-2006 season I tend to think its not QB..

Here, try this http://extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6246718&postcount=101 (http://extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6246718&postcount=101)
and this
http://extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6138604&postcount=68 (http://extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6138604&postcount=68)

Its not secret he played on one of the best teams in College Football and thats probably why he had success... both his rb's were drafted top 5

this is true, but Im not sure how relevant it is.

Thanks for reading and I look foward to people's input

[ntotoro]

Campbell isn't a leader, he may one day succeed again if he has pro-bowl team surrounding him, but until then he will remain a sub-par qb, not the franchise qb the skins so desperately need.

That seems to be the big "if" about Campbell.

"If" everything around him is perfect, he's a good QB. If the RB is healthy and strong, the line is perfect, everyone gets blocking assignments and runs perfect routes, etcetera and so on. Then he can be good. So can every other QB going all the way down to the High School and Little League ranks, though.

[DCskin]

Yep Madden said Colt had the "IT" Factor. Im pulling for JC but i am interested to see what colt does in preseason now with a year under his belt.

So did Steve Young.

[Hunter_R]

Good grief would you please stop with the "this is the city that hates QB's" b.s.

Clearly you have no idea what's happening in most NFL cities across the country..........and make it seem discussions such as this happen much more frequently here. Visit Philly one of these days and let me know what's happening there.
QFT, and McNabb is actually a damn good qb. JC, and his fragile ego, would need to be checked into a psyche ward if he was subjected to what McNabb gets.

[DGREENHULK]

Yep Madden said Colt had the "IT" Factor. Im pulling for JC but i am interested to see what colt does in preseason now with a year under his belt.

I'd be interested in seeing Colt play against another teams 1's......He didn't play top competition in college and played against 3rd and 4th teamers last year in the preseason. At least when he gets picked or sacked we won't have to hear the "Give Colt a Shot" chants...I can see the headline now "COLT SHOOTS BLANKS"..but hey give the kid a chance to start in the preseason..maybe he will prove me wrong...but I doubt it.

[DCDiesel44]

I really think that if Stephon Heyer improves on last year he will be a quality starter for us, especially with the guidance from guys like Samuels, Thomas, and Jansen. We just re-signed guard Dockery who is only 29 years old. I say we draft a young DE opposite Carter and alongside Haynesworth to create sacks and turnovers for our defense. With our 3rd round pick we should select a center such as Shipley from Penn State to replace Rabach. This would give us three o-lineman in their 20's and the other 2 (Samuels and Thomas) have enough in the tank for another season.

[[S.S.F. | Nero]]

Bradshaw is pulling for Colt because he is the backup underdog.

Had the team beaten a couple of far inferior teams last year (Rams and Bengals come to mind, don't forget the 49ers) we wouldn't hear Colt's name at all until injury, and even then it would be mixed in with Todd Collins - *shudders*.


Campbell is tall with a great feel.

Colt Brennan is short. This means he has to work harder to make plays, think of a Doug Flutie.

Campbell works behind a patchy line that hasn't played consistently together as a unit since late 2006. His receivers are small and run inconsistent routes with suspect hands (far too many on the money passes from JC have been dropped by little receivers who are clearly afraid of getting eviscerated by a defender). CATCH THE BALL.

The larger receivers have been drafted but will likely need 1 more year of seasoning before becoming forces (Kelly, Thomas, Davis).


Everyone should thank Jason Campbell for turning the ball over just once during our 6-2 start last year.... that had alot to do with our 6-2 start by the way.

Everyone should remember that Jason went from 19 turnovers in 2007 (in only 13 games) to 7 turnovers in a full 16 games in 2008.

That is an improvement if you ask me....

Not every team has a playmaker QB you fickle fanatics!!!

Teams can win handily by playing solid D, and good enough offense.

This teams problem is NOT the QB.

The problem is the OFFENSIVE LINE - because it is old and slow and beatable by the younger, hungrier defensive linemen and linebackers in the league.

We mortgaged the farm by selling our draft picks for players like TJ Duckett and Brandon Lloyd, and by drafting people like Taylor Jacobs in the 2nd round.

Now that we have the skill players in place, they can't execute because defenses are peppering our ball thrower before he can even get the back of his drop!

They're running around, over, and through our beat up, old linemen.

Do you people even see the games!!!! Do you understand football!!!!!!



COLT needs to earn his way in. JC needs to show why he should stay.



Neither of them will be successfull with the shoddy line play that we have seen the last 2 seasons....... it's called DEPTH.

Something the Redskins should invest more time in.....


Everything in football can be traced back to O Line play. Even defensive stamina (due to resting during sustained drives, predicated on excellent offensive line play).

O line gets fixed, Skins win a couple of those heartbreakers. Fans happy.

[morpheusmeyers]

;6248494']

O line gets fixed, Skins win a couple of those heartbreakers. Fans happy.



Many here would argue that if the QB position gets fixed, Skins win a couple of those heartbreakers. Fans happy.

[ntotoro]

Brennan is 6'3". I don't know what planet that qualifies as "short."

Not saying that makes or breaks a QB, but Jason being two inches taller certainly hasn't set him apart from anyone.

[[S.S.F. | Nero]]

Many here would argue that if the QB position gets fixed, Skins win a couple of those heartbreakers. Fans happy.


What did the QB do to lose games for us?

[[S.S.F. | Nero]]

Brennan is 6'3". I don't know what planet that qualifies as "short."

Not saying that makes or breaks a QB, but Jason being two inches taller certainly hasn't set him apart from anyone.

He looks shorter than that.

[morpheusmeyers]

;6248519']He looks shorter than that.

You can't compare Brennan to Flutie in height. I'm not sure Flutie was even 6 feet tall. He's at least 3 inches shorter than Brennan.

[Skinz4Life12]

i hate that bastard bradshaw but thanks for posting this anyways

[[S.S.F. | Nero]]

You can't compare Brennan to Flutie in height. I'm not sure Flutie was even 6 feet tall. He's at least 3 inches shorter than Brennan.


Sorry. My mistake. I hope you got more out of my post than that however...

[morpheusmeyers]

;6248677']Sorry. My mistake. I hope you got more out of my post than that however...

I did get more out of your post than that, sure. And I agree that a portion of the offenses problems can be attributed to the offensive line. But I also think that if the team had a better QB, one that made quick decisions and could read the entire field, that the line's deficiencies would be greatly mitigated.

[Mooka]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter. Zorn announced Jason the starter before hardly stepping foot into his office. We hadn't even drafted Colt yet.

He was obviously hired as an Offensive Coordinator to help develop Campbell. Makes you wonder what choice Zorn has in the matter.

[RocketCitySkins]

QFT, and McNabb is actually a damn good qb. JC, and his fragile ego, would need to be checked into a psyche ward if he was subjected to what McNabb gets.

Totally disagree. I can remember JC being booed off the field at least twice his junior year at Auburn and benched at least once. It only made him work harder and win 13 games his senior year and SEC MVP. I'm telling you, JC is a lot tougher mentally than some people give him credit to be.

Fan criticism really doesn't get to JC.

"Campbell brushes aside the criticism. "People are really getting absurd with the stuff they're saying right now," Campbell said. "I'm the quarterback of this team, and I work hard to prepare myself and be a leader. You can't tell anything about how much someone cares about their job, about what's going on, from watching them on TV on the sideline."

[Mahons21]

Yes and No. Check out this stat. Its the yard per attempt split into first and 2nd halves of the season (not games).

1st half ypa: 7.6
1st half INTs: 0
1st half TDs: 8
1st half games with rating of 90 or above: 6
2nd half ypa: 5.4
2nd half Ints: 6
2nd half TDs: 5
2nd half games with rating of 90 or above: 0

Why does this matter? He played his best ball int he first half of the season, the only thing youd want to see more of is a higher number of TDs but when you play that mistake free, it might not matter (outside of fantasy football). Notice how 7.6 ypa is a pretty high number and even though its a team stat, it shows Campbell's part too. In the first half of the season Z's offense attacked and Campbell was sharp spreading the ball over the field including downfield in a budding vertical attack. If you checkdowned too much, youd expect the ypa to be down around 6 or sub 6. Also notice how his stats plummet when the O starts relying on underneath along with Campbell checking down. He plays well when you let him pass downfield and 6-2 tells me that he was checking down when he was supposed to, not too much. To say this its soley Jason Campbell flatly ignores the rest of the team.
-Down 2 YPA is a huge difference, and shows that he was checking down far more the second half of the season...




This is kind of one point so I will adress it as one. Jason Campbell played in a WCO before. And his great play in the first half of the season would have lead you to believe this was the breakout we were waiting for. Who knows how different this playbook is from any other WCO. Of course, instead of adding to the playbook, Z strangely took plays out, shrinking the playbook. The result, an offense so conservative that players, opponents, and announcers all commented that the Redskins rarely even run routes beyond the first downmarker late in the season. Not even Gibbs was that conservative.
-I heard that in one game the 49ers
-Zorn wouldn't take plays out if he thought his qb had a handle on the playbook(pretty basic logic)
-Portis was going off the first half of the season not Campbell, and the rush was opening up the run (might be the reason Campbell wasn't blitzed as frequently) I would like to see the game to game break down of blitzes.


Also, Z has commented that he didnt even have his playbook finished by the start of the year. Are you saying Campbell should have learned a playbook that didnt even exist?
-Why is it relevant if the playbook is done if it has to be shrunken anyway? And I doubt this meant he handed Campbell a playbook the night before the G-men game and said good luck, Campbell worked on an offense this offseason there is no debating that.


People also forget that NE lost 2-3 starters last year for extended periods to injury on that OL. Would Brady have done better? perhaps, but their line missing starters is still better than ours at 100%
-Was it 2 or 3? and I don't recall them losing half their own line for an extended period of time if you have a link I am curious as to what games and how many times Cassell was sacked during these games.
-And comparing 12 to 43 should show you that alot more than the o-line is responsible for the way the pass protection is perceived by the audience.




This is flat out false. Campbell is not bad against the blitz

Lets do a breakdown of QBs in the division under the blitz

Romo
96 completions out of 164 attempts for 58%. 1335 yards, 6TDs, 6INTs, 59 first downs, 8 sacks

McNabb
108 Completions out of 196 attempts for 55%. 1388 yards, 10tds, 4 ints, 64 1sts and 11 sacks

Manning
97 completions out of 191 attempts for 50%. 1188 yards, 4 TDs, 6 ints, 64 1sts and 15 sacks.

Campbell
106 out of 176 for 60%. 1188 yards, 4 TDs, 4ints, 64 1sts, 13 sacks.

Hes at least as good as everyone in the division outside of McNabb. And Considering Romo and McNabb both missed at least a half of football and both have more attempts against blitzes doesnt that mean teams blitzed Campbell less than other qbs at least as far as the NFCE goes?

Teams didnt have to blitz especially when Samuels's knee wore down. You cant put TEs over both the Tackles to help and expect an offense to do anything. Teams got pressure and early sacks with 5,4, and even 3 rushers.
-I would love it when you called me flat out wrong if you would please post a link to your facts... and also a game by game breakdown would be appreciated because based on my theory teams started blitzing more later in the season and this is what caused the offensive breakdown
-As I have said above they may not have blitzed as much during the being of the season because Portis was going wild
-Sometime the run sets up the pass, sometimes the pass sets up the run... when its obvious a team can't pass you dare them too... that what happened to Campbell down the stretch of last season their is visual evidence if you take the time to watch the games.




Yeah, that was great, but what was different back then? Let me suggest we look at the line.

28 year old Samuels
25 year old Dock
28 year old Rabach
29 year old Thomas before 2 season ending injuries, one to the lower body
28 year old Jansen again with some serious season enders

Also, Santana had a 1000 yard season, not a great example of showing that Campbell cant use his weapons. No, the real difference between this team and that team is RZ offense. In 2005-2006 Sellers had 7 receiving TDs all RZ TDs. People give Gibbs crap for being old school, fact is, that brutal old school offense worked, especially in the RZ. It wasnt great, but it scored more than we have in the years following.

What do we do now with Sellers? Let him swan dive? We only threw to him 2-3 times in the RZ. One was a TD, one bounced off his hands (maybe it was Campbell throwing too hard, I put that one on big mike). Theres the offensive woes, its all RZ. Check my sig.
-There is a big difference of a top 5 WR(Santana's #'s in 05), who almost single handedly won a monday night game and a receiver(Tana in 08) who some don't think is a #1 WR due to this numbers.
-Yes our RZ has been inefficient, I don't know why we don't go to Sellers more, he was successful in 05.
-But why are we so frequently finding ourselves in drives that end in the redzone? Why don't we have the big play ability to go from the 40 to pay dirt to skip the RZ all together? Because we don't have a big play qb, plain and simple. He was tied for worst in TD's this year, maybe that isn't all his fault but if you think RZ are our worries and think Campbell is acceptable with his 12 TD's you are being quite contradictory.



this is contrary to his coaches saying hes going too fast through his reads? And if there are 4 routes that all are run short of the 1st down marker who is that on?.
-How do you know their are 4 routes being run short of the marker? I mean is this serious? Is there any football logic behind this statement? Maybe his checkdown or 2 maybe even 3 don't go beyond the marker, but if you think on 3rd and long Zorn is calling a play(other than a screen) where no receiver runs past the 1st down marker you must be out of your mind, it defies all football logic (unless maybe 3rd and 20 and a draw would be a better decision).



p=6246718&postcount=101 (http://extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6246718&postcount=101)
and this

[Hunter_R]

Totally disagree. I can remember JC being booed off the field at least twice his junior year at Auburn and benched at least once. It only made him work harder and win 13 games his senior year and SEC MVP. I'm telling you, JC is a lot tougher mentally than some people give him credit to be.

Fan criticism really doesn't get to JC.

"Campbell brushes aside the criticism. "People are really getting absurd with the stuff they're saying right now," Campbell said. "I'm the quarterback of this team, and I work hard to prepare myself and be a leader. You can't tell anything about how much someone cares about their job, about what's going on, from watching them on TV on the sideline."
He wouldn't have done jack or **** without his two running backs at Auburn.


Campbell has worked extensively on strengthening his psyche. He took a long break from football following a season-ending 27-24 loss to San Francisco on Dec. 28, which completed the Redskins' 2-6 second-half collapse after a 6-2 start. Campbell was among the main targets of frustrated fans, who questioned his intelligence and leadership skills on Internet message boards and sports-talk radio.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/16/AR2009031603327.html

[[S.S.F. | Nero]]

I did get more out of your post than that, sure. And I agree that a portion of the offenses problems can be attributed to the offensive line. But I also think that if the team had a better QB, one that made quick decisions and could read the entire field, that the line's deficiencies would be greatly mitigated.

I'm not so sure about this one. What can other quarterbacks do between the time the ball is snapped and when they reach the end of their dropback that Jason cannot?

He was getting hit and hurried before he could even read the field....how do you know he isn't reading whatever he can read in the 1.5 - 3 seconds he has before getting hit?

This is due to bad OL play, and I'll say it because nobody else will, it was Jon Fricking Jansen !!!!! Then after, Samuels went down and we had Heyer, Jansen on the ends....fughettaboutit!

[Rhodus333]

That seems to be the big "if" about Campbell.

"If" everything around him is perfect, he's a good QB. If the RB is healthy and strong, the line is perfect, everyone gets blocking assignments and runs perfect routes, etcetera and so on. Then he can be good. So can every other QB going all the way down to the High School and Little League ranks, though.
Hit the nail on the head. Like i said before, the QB is the guy you want to have the ball when things DONT go according to plan. someone who can think on his feet and adjust to make something out of nothing. Do you all really see that out of Campbell? Honestly, i don't........

[Backpack3r]

;6248513']What did the QB do to lose games for us?

Thats the point, he didnt do anything. Jason Campbell put up 10 points a game, that is why we lost more games then we shouldve

[SirClintonPortis]

Campbell has worked extensively on strengthening his psyche. He took a long break from football following a season-ending 27-24 loss to San Francisco on Dec. 28, which completed the Redskins' 2-6 second-half collapse after a 6-2 start. Campbell was among the main targets of frustrated fans, who questioned his intelligence and leadership skills on Internet message boards and sports-talk radio.
I thought he was going through some Pilates exercises. Perhaps he thought it was a solution to throwing bad passes after being constantly hit.

[RocketCitySkins]

He wouldn't have done jack or **** without his two running backs at Auburn.


He did have a great backfield but neither Williams nor Brown won the MVP. Jason won it because VT had both running backs shut down in the bowl game and Jason beat them thru the air. Any VT fan can tell you this.

[morpheusmeyers]

;6249233']I'm not so sure about this one. What can other quarterbacks do between the time the ball is snapped and when they reach the end of their dropback that Jason cannot?



One of the biggest knocks on Campbell coming out of college is that he hangs on to the ball too long. It's still his biggest problem area, though some would argue that his biggest problem is locking onto his primary receiver.

If you go back and watch the Bengals game, Campbell had all day to throw and he still consistently got himself into trouble by holding the ball too long. Watch Romo, Cutler, and other good QB's and you will see that they get rid of the ball fast. Campbell simply doesn't do that, at least on a consistent basis.

Like I said before, a good QB would help mitigate our offenses deficiencies. Agreed that the O line needs help, though.

[eljeasel]

-Down 2 YPA is a huge difference, and shows that he was checking down far more the second half of the season...


First, thanks for responding to my post. I appreciate you reading what I posted, It was alot!

Yes down 2 YPA is a huge difference but you dont seem to acknowledge my point. You said his higher stats were due to checking down. If his higher stats occurred in games with higher YPA that directly goes against that notion. I dont think how you can look at the better %, TD/INT, Rating numbers occuring in the first part of the season with the games with higher YPA and say "its because he was checking down." The reliance on the checkdown came in the 2nd half the season, evidenced by the lower YPA and you see a drop in passer rating, %, TDs/INT.


-I heard that in one game the 49ers

What? What did you hear in the 9ers game?

-Zorn wouldn't take plays out if he thought his qb had a handle on the playbook(pretty basic logic)

Perhaps he took out those plays for other reasons? Example: How many reverses were called in the first half the season? How many in the 2nd half? It defies logic, but thats why teams like the Ravens expressed astonishment at how simple and predictable the Redskins offense had become.

-Portis was going off the first half of the season not Campbell, and the rush was opening up the run (might be the reason Campbell wasn't blitzed as frequently) I would like to see the game to game break down of blitzes.

Of course Portis was going off in the first game but didnt hit a 100 yard game until the 4th game of the season. That isnt to say he wasnt effective. He remained a RZ rushing threat and a source of points. Im not sure how the rush would open up the run if thats what you meant.

Im not sure how Portis's play indicates Campbell didnt play well. Early in the season Z used the pass early to get downfield along with the run. In the 2nd half he used the Run to eat clock and choke teams to death.

Dallas

1st Half CP Rushing Yards 46; JC Passing Yards 178
2nd Half CP Rushing Yards 65; JC Passing Yards 52

Philly

1st Half CP Rushing Yards 43; JC Passing Yards
2nd Half CP Rushing Yards 102; JC Passing Yards

Hey Ill tell you what, Im going to finish this breakdown later if you want it. It might be total bunk, but the same is going to hold true for the Detroit win and the Rams game, maybe even the CLE and SEA games too. I have to manually compile that stat from play by plays and its time consuming (and I got rock band to play)



-Why is it relevant if the playbook is done if it has to be shrunken anyway? And I doubt this meant he handed Campbell a playbook the night before the G-men game and said good luck, Campbell worked on an offense this offseason there is no debating that.

The playbook didnt have to be shrunk. Thats your assertion not mine. I say it didnt have to and it was shrunk to the offense's detriment.

Its relevant because they had less of it work with in the offseason. If 10%, 20%, 40%? of the playbook wasnt in existence until the season started, how could you have any grasp of anything besides the fundamentals of the plays rather than the nitty gritty affinity needed for a precision offense?


-Was it 2 or 3? and I don't recall them losing half their own line for an extended period of time if you have a link I am curious as to what games and how many times Cassell was sacked during these games.

The actually had some pretty intresting injuries. You can look that up yourself on any sporting website. Id like to see that breakdown too. Light was hurt, didnt miss any time along with LeVoir and their Center (name slips my mind). Kaczur (their tackle) missed 2-3 games. Sorry Im not being more specific, I dont follow the Pats much.

-And comparing 12 to 43 should show you that alot more than the o-line is responsible for the way the pass protection is perceived by the audience.


Sure, but are you saying our pass pro is sufficient? Our pass pro got better when we lost the starting tackles. When Samuels and Jansen couldnt move laterally they got beat, consistently. You can only max protect so much. Heyer at that point was an improvement over Big Chris in pass pro. Lets just hope Samuels's knee doesnt act up this year.

-I would love it when you called me flat out wrong if you would please post a link to your facts... and also a game by game breakdown would be appreciated because based on my theory teams started blitzing more later in the season and this is what caused the offensive breakdown

Ouch. Dont believe me? Most of my stats come off either Yahoo or SI. SI has a stat for QBs that is indicated while being blitzed. Pulled the numbers straight from that. A game by game breakdown? Go for it.

-As I have said above they may not have blitzed as much during the being of the season because Portis was going wild

Prove it. Id like to see that breakdown.

-Sometime the run sets up the pass, sometimes the pass sets up the run... when its obvious a team can't pass you dare them too... that what happened to Campbell down the stretch of last season their is visual evidence if you take the time to watch the games.


Hey, Im not going to tell you Campbell lit it up in the 2nd half of the season. But I assert its because of too much pressure from a 3-5 man rush. Yeah, he was bad in the Bengals game, and the first half of the SF game but otherwise I dont really put those losses on him.

-There is a big difference of a top 5 WR(Santana's #'s in 05), who almost single handedly won a monday night game and a receiver(Tana in 08) who some don't think is a #1 WR due to this numbers.

I dont know what up with Santana. Sometimes hes super sharp, and fights his guts out. Sometimes you see him dropping gimmes and quitting on plays/games

-Yes our RZ has been inefficient, I don't know why we don't go to Sellers more, he was successful in 05.
-But why are we so frequently finding ourselves in drives that end in the redzone? Why don't we have the big play ability to go from the 40 to pay dirt to skip the RZ all together? Because we don't have a big play qb, plain and simple. He was tied for worst in TD's this year, maybe that isn't all his fault but if you think RZ are our worries and think Campbell is acceptable with his 12 TD's you are being quite contradictory.

I do put some on Campbell. But we have the same problems under Saunders with Campbell, Saunders with Collins, Saunders with Brunell, Gibbs with Brunell (though it was better).

I just dont think you can bring anyone short of Favre and expect good RZ numbers. Eli is a good RZ qb, or so I thought until Plexico wasnt in the picture. In the games without Plex he had 3 TDs (2 RZ TDs) and 3 INTs in 5 games. Before that he had thrown 18 TDS and 7 INTs in 11 games. His RZ stats for the year at 17TDs to 2 INTs. Wow. Thats great. Thats a pretty huge change and I would have to say Plex was their safety net in the RZ.

Lets Recap With Plex (10 games, misses one with injury)
ELI - 18 TDs 7 INTs
Giants - 56 RZ attempts with 29 TDs, 16 are RZ passing TDs

Without Plex (5 games)
Eli - 3 TDs, 3INTs (2 RZ TDs)
Gints - 13 RZ attempts with 6 RZ TDs, 2 are RZ TDs

Of course you have to recognize the general drop in RZ attempts that corresponds with the loss of Plex. But you have to acknowledge that the Eli score most of his TDs in the RZ, 17 of 21. And struggles to score in the RZ without Plax to go get up on the ladder and outjump a receiver or draw a double team. Now of course its not all Plax, he only scored 4 TDs, 3 of them RZ TDs, but 3 more RZ TDs for this team could mean the difference in a game like 2nd Dallas game, the Rams game, the Bengals, or the SF game. 2 more scores makes this team 10-6 and in the playoffs. Who knows what having a 2nd RZ threat other than Cooley would do for the RZ woes that plague this team


Hes one of the top in the league at getting that fade which we cannot run until one of the 3 new passcatchers gets in the game.


-How do you know their are 4 routes being run short of the marker? I mean is this serious? Is there any football logic behind this statement? Maybe his checkdown or 2 maybe even 3 don't go beyond the marker, but if you think on 3rd and long Zorn is calling a play(other than a screen) where no receiver runs past the 1st down marker you must be out of your mind, it defies all football logic (unless maybe 3rd and 20 and a draw would be a better decision).


I agree. It doesnt make sense. Doesnt mean Z didnt call multiple plays that had 1 or 0 routes going beyond the marker. The 2nd philly game is full of it. It could just be bad route running. Or Campbell changed everyone's routes at the line or something silly like that. But it happened more than it should have.

[DCMONEY]

-Sorry just didn't really want to have to get into this again... but here it goes
-Campbell success this season, you site his increased accuracy and passer rating, both can be attributed to the amount of times he checked the ball down.

<<As I stated before Campbell played well IMO despite everything that I feel is wrong with this team. Mainly the offensive line.>>

-The whole systems complaint I don't really by because many other first round qb's have caught onto their systems in their first season, and Campbell has run a WCO before don't forget.

<<Campbell has caught on to this offense IMO. Now in the 2nd half as I'e stated before I think the offensive line was horrible. Its why his play and Portis's slipped.>>

-Formation, Terminology, etc... does change thats why you have an offseason, thats why you study the playbook, you are paid millions of dollars to do so, if other qb's can get it done that much faster it leads me to believe Jason won't ever get it done.

<<Like I've stated above. Campbell played well in this offense alll things considered.>>

-His line, no it wasn't perfect, but it wasn't half as bad as majority of Campbell excusers believe it was.... Line's can be made to look bad by the qb as I have stated, NE gave up like 12 sacks with Brady but Cassell lead the league in sacks last year... think that was because the line got so much worst? Or Cassell dealt with pressure much worst, and teams know what to do when a qb can't deal with the pressure... Keep on bringing it.

<<Man you've got to be kidding. The offensive line in the last 8 games was awful. It totally stunk period. I guess we'll agree to disagree with the line. I think the Skins O-line was terrible. I can reverse your logic and say Kerry Collins was sacked 8 times but his #'s weren't on par with Campbell's. Ask Titans fans and they give him a lot of credit for getting them almost to the Superbowl.>>

-What happened with Campbell? Teams saw he did horrible against the pressure so they brought it, doing so also helped stuff the run, but allowed for the occasional run to be busted, if you get by the blitz.

<<Thats str8 bull. Teams bought pressure because the O-line stunk. You and others saying teams walked a safety up to the line so that why Portis failed. Portis failed because the O-line stunk in 2nd half. If walking a safety up works then why do teams like the Titans and Vikings still run the ball despite teams walking up their safties. Now the Titans and Vikins are teams that didn't have good production from the QB position and teams walked up their safties as a result. What was the difference? Both these teams had strong O-lines and ran the ball anyhow. Portis couldn't run because this O-line stunk, not because teams walked up a safety. Also walking a safety up has an advantage and disadvantage, If the RB hits the next level, thats it. its not always advantageous to walk your safety all the wy up.>>

-The receivers weren't great but qb's have done a lot more with worst receiving cores, Moss was a top 5 WR but 3 years ago with Brunell and I bet you don't even remember who his #2 at the time was.

<<Man the Skins WR core is overrated PERIOD. Their paid well but their avergage at best. Randel El isn't a #2 WR. Jason had some bad throws and the WT's had drops too. Some of them ran wrong routes. According to the coaches the 2 rookies and TE didn't even know enough to get on the field. >>

-Yet Campbells problems still remain, its not as if he's calling the wrong play(which might be due to new playbook) or as if teams are rushing 4 and dropping into coverage and successfully pressuring him(the false belief many people here believe). He's throwing a 90 mph fastball to receivers and not in stride, he's throwing 10 feet above their head, he doesn't throw to open spaces he throws to open receivers(can't do this against an NFL zone defense, may be man). He doesn't go through his reads quickly and frequently checks down, to recievers in front of the first down marker. These problems all remain constant no matter the system, no matter the coach, no matter the line, that is Jason Campbell in a nutshell, he was a 1st round reach and we failed. Its not secret he played on one of the best teams in College Football and thats probably why he had success... both his rb's were drafted top 5.

<<In order to go through reads and progressions it takes an O-line blocking. You can't go through reads when there's a jail break on the O-line. When for instance you tell Todd Yoder to pick up James Harrison on a blitz, you can't whiff block. Jason wasn't perfect but I've been around football too long to suggest that a QB over come bad line play. No matter how good he is, its not gonna last. Good teams have consistent good lines. The Skins of old proved that. Its why they caould win 3 Cahmpionships with three different RB's and QB's. The 1 constant was that they always had strong trench play. Oh I'll state for the record again I though Jason played well in the 1st year of this offense behind a bad line.>>

[Mooka]

Yes down 2 YPA is a huge difference but you dont seem to acknowledge my point. You said his higher stats were due to checking down. If his higher stats occurred in games with higher YPA that directly goes against that notion. I dont think how you can look at the better %, TD/INT, Rating numbers occuring in the first part of the season with the games with higher YPA and say "its because he was checking down." The reliance on the checkdown came in the 2nd half the season, evidenced by the lower YPA and you see a drop in passer rating, %, TDs/INT. Hmm... you also said this about Todd Collins:


Where Campbell would force a ball into coverage trying to rely on arm strength or just trying to make something happen when the offense would stall, Collins just hit his checkdown and used his running backs. Dont believe me? Thats fine, just keep in mind something like over 40% of his passes were checkdowns.

You left out that Collins' YPA was 2 yards higher then Campbell's in 2007. (even used that as a point that Collins wasn't much better stating he only threw for 14 more YPG)

What you say here and what you said about Collins vs Campbell in 2007 is inconsistent.

[eljeasel]

Hmm... you also said this about Todd Collins:



You left out that Collins' YPA was 2 yards higher then Campbell's in 2007. (even used that as a point that Collins wasn't much better stating he only threw for 14 more YPG)

What you say here and what you said about Collins vs Campbell in 2007 is inconsistent.

Inconsistent how?

If you force a pass into coverage you get INTs, passes batted down, or the occassional completion. If you hit a checkdown you get maybe nothing, but most likely a few yards. Plus you run less of a risk of turnover.

How is this inconsistent.

Numerically I just dont follow. Lets say you throw 10 passes.

10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
3 yard checkdown
3 yard checkdown
3 yard checkdown
3 yard checkdown

Thats 7.2 ypa. Which of course is a team stat but we are using it anways. Those 3 yard checkdowns of course could turn into big yardage play. Compare that to the following

10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
10 yard completion
pass defensed
pass defensed
pass defensed
pass defensed

Now youre at a 6.0 ypa plus every pass defensed could be a turnover for points. Add in you arent putting the ball into youre playmakers hands so you dont get the chance at portis breaking a swing pass for 20+ or Moss turning a drag route into a first down.

I dont follow how its a contradiction unless you are saying that the checkdowns accounted for the bulk of Campbell's stats early on, which Im not sure you can do. Hmm. Maybe Yards per completion would better illustrate my point. Let me calculate that up and Ill post those numbers

[Mooka]

Inconsistent how?

If you force a pass into coverage you get INTs, passes batted down, or the occassional completion. If you hit a checkdown you get maybe nothing, but most likely a few yards. Plus you run less of a risk of turnover.

How is this inconsistent. Well you were using the checkdowns against Collins comparing him to Campbell. Even with checking down all the time Collins had a higher YPA, higher completion %, QB rating and TD/Int ratio.

[skins2victory]

If JC was that good why not open up the competition to squash any controversy? That would take a lot of heat off of not only JC but Zorn as well if JC gets off to a rocky start this season.

lets face reality, there is only one reason that I can see why you wouldn't even think about opening the competition up with a QB of JC's caliber, and that is Danny boy is going to the mats with JC and this is the final season. Why would any one be worried about a 6th rd pick out playing JC? What harm could possibly be done? Well most of us who have watched JC play know what will in all liklyhood happen if JC has to compete for the starting job.

Reality is that, no QB could have done good behind that O-Line last year. There was no time to complete throws, which equals bad QB play. JC, Cult, it dosent matter who it is, behind a beat up O-Line you will not make it to a superbowl. Superbowl champions have good O-Lines.

[skins2victory]

Does anyone dissagree with my comment above?? Does anyone dissagree that you must have a good O-Line to get to the superbowl and win it?? Because all of the people complaning about JC need to give it up, unless the O-Line gets fixed the skins will not be superbowl champs, which is the main goal, no matter who the QB is!!!

[eljeasel]

Well you were using the checkdowns against Collins comparing him to Campbell. Even with checking down all the time Collins had a higher YPA, higher completion %, QB rating and TD/Int ratio.

Wouldnt that just show that Collins is better at dinking and dunking? Which kind of goes with his knowledge of the playbook and probably more accurate throws. I was trying to show that Campbell is better when going downfield like earlier in the year.

I think the YPC shows that if I understand it right because checkdowns would lower the YPC but not the YPA?

Campbell 1st half of the year
11.5 ypc

2nd half of the year
9.14 ypc

And that shows just that? That his better stats occured in the half of the year when he (and the team) were playing their best ball and going downfield? If he was checking down more in the first half of the year, wouldnt his ypc be lower like his 2nd half ypc?

Ill admit, I hate stats, but its a finite point that almost needs either rewatching the entire season everyone together looking at play calls and routes run or we could just crunch numbers.

[wtfsauce]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter.

-The comment that was made about us starting 6-2 and then falling off, is directly related to the comment that we have the oldest O-Line in the league. After the half way point of the season they were tierd and beat up. That is when the team started to play horrible, there was no protection, which means fewer completions. There were also absolutly no holes for portis to run threw, he still was able to put up # because that is what portis does, the # just werent as good as the fisrt part of the season, when the line was fresh and healthy and could make some holes.

I'd be more inclined to say that Zorn in no way would get away with already naming somebody the starter; there was a reason he was brought to DC and he's expected to try to make Campbell our franchise QB. Plus, he needs more than a single year to work with Colt (or someone does) before you can just call the kid a starter less than 2 months after the Super Bowl. You guys are wild.

[wtfsauce]

Why do say say that?? It dosent make any since to me, if he wanted colt to be the starter for the skins some day, practice and experience are the best way to learn. It would be better to make chemistry with the 1st string team as soon as possible. But the fact is he is the 3rd string QB, he dosent even get many reps with the 2nd stringers.

You don't make a 6th round rookie the number 2 when you have a guy that just lead you down a stretch to make the playoffs that's getting paid pretty well for a backup... whether you think the 6th has the potential to be better or not

[wtfsauce]

If JC was that good why not open up the competition to squash any controversy? That would take a lot of heat off of not only JC but Zorn as well if JC gets off to a rocky start this season.

lets face reality, there is only one reason that I can see why you wouldn't even think about opening the competition up with a QB of JC's caliber, and that is Danny boy is going to the mats with JC and this is the final season. Why would any one be worried about a 6th rd pick out playing JC? What harm could possibly be done? Well most of us who have watched JC play know what will in all liklyhood happen if JC has to compete for the starting job.

That's throwing your current starter under the bus...

[wtfsauce]

I'd be interested in seeing Colt play against another teams 1's......He didn't play top competition in college and played against 3rd and 4th teamers last year in the preseason. At least when he gets picked or sacked we won't have to hear the "Give Colt a Shot" chants...I can see the headline now "COLT SHOOTS BLANKS"..but hey give the kid a chance to start in the preseason..maybe he will prove me wrong...but I doubt it.

Whereas this is true, he was throwing to players who didn't make a single roster in the league with linemen who weren't even good enough to make ours.

[Mahons21]

-Easel, I asked for a link so I could do further analysis, you later in your post ask me to prove it! Well I will if you could give me a link where I can find these stats, I've googled them nothing comes up, but somehow you have come across them.
-U got defensive which leads me to believe you didn't find this information, and don't have a link... if you do please by all means give it, so I can further analyze my THEORY which may be wrong
-But right now you are calling a lot FACT that may or may not be, and not showing any link for your blitzing #'s, etc... please do so.
-You in your first post say the Pats were missing 2-3 linemen for a significant Portion of the year, then say in your next that Light was hurt but didn't miss time and another guy missed 2 games... this isn't a significant amount of time.(and tell me to go find out the details, well I am not the one who made up the fact, when I do I'll post you a link)
-Then you go on to say I shouldn't make the assertion Zorn shrunk the offense because the players(qb) didn't have a grasp on it... if you don't make this assertion then you are assuming our HC for some unknown reason during the middle of the season decided to take out plays that were working successfully? Which one of these two options is more logical and probable... thats how I came to my assertion... but your that assertion shrinking the playbook hurt the offense is probably spot on you know more than any offensive coordinator or hc on the skins.

[brianm23]

-If Zorn didnt think JC could get it done next year, he would say that Colt was the starter and get colt ready now in this offseason. But the fact is Zorn thinks JC will be the QB to lead this team into the post season next year, and that is why he is the starter.

When a coach names a starting QB the moment he signs a contract to lead the team, you know something is up. To me, it's a clear understanding that he had no choice in who to start at QB. You don't name a starting QB (in a new offensive system) without reviewing the personnel and watching them practice.

[RocketCitySkins]

When a coach names a starting QB the moment he signs a contract to lead the team, you know something is up. To me, it's a clear understanding that he had no choice in who to start at QB. You don't name a starting QB (in a new offensive system) without reviewing the personnel and watching them practice.

Clear to me, too. Zorn knew that Collins was a 9 year vet of Saunders system, not the WCO. And it showed in training camp and pre-season. No doubt he had already watched a ton of tape on Colt or he wouldn't have drafted in as a project in the 6th round. I agree Collins was brilliant in Saunders offense but you don't really think he would have started Collins after his pre-season performance in the WCO. And Colt for sure wasn't ready. I don't see where Zorn had any choice but to start JC, even if he hadn't been brought here to do that very thing.

[brianm23]

Clear to me, too. Zorn knew that Collins was a 9 year vet of Saunders system, not the WCO. And it showed in training camp and pre-season. No doubt he had already watched a ton of tape on Colt or he wouldn't have drafted in as a project in the 6th round. I agree Collins was brilliant in Saunders offense but you don't really think he would have started Collins after his pre-season performance in the WCO. And Colt for sure wasn't ready. I don't see where Zorn had any choice but to start JC, even if he hadn't been brought here to do that very thing.


Yeah. Keep believing that if you like. Doesn't matter what system Collins was a vet in. You don't name starting QBs in a new offensive system without watching the individuals work. Collins could had easily adapted to the system and been better than Campbell and Zorn doesn't know that unless he waits till practice. Him making the starter prior to camp said it all.

[eljeasel]

-Easel, I asked for a link so I could do further analysis, you later in your post ask me to prove it! Well I will if you could give me a link where I can find these stats, I've googled them nothing comes up, but somehow you have come across them.

I thought I said I got the blitzing stats from SI. Go to a QB, theres a tab for passing splits. In there is numbers "while being blitzed" or "under blitz" or something like that





-U got defensive which leads me to believe you didn't find this information, and don't have a link... if you do please by all means give it, so I can further analyze my THEORY which may be wrong

I was joking. I did tell you I used yahoo and SI


-But right now you are calling a lot FACT that may or may not be, and not showing any link for your blitzing #'s, etc... please do so.

If its just numbers, I call it fact.


-You in your first post say the Pats were missing 2-3 linemen for a significant Portion of the year, then say in your next that Light was hurt but didn't miss time and another guy missed 2 games... this isn't a significant amount of time.(and tell me to go find out the details, well I am not the one who made up the fact, when I do I'll post you a link)

That ones on me. I thought it was 2-3 for a few games each. But I misread a pats injury report during the season. In the end its just a few injuries and a few games. My Bad bro.


-Then you go on to say I shouldn't make the assertion Zorn shrunk the offense because the players(qb) didn't have a grasp on it... if you don't make this assertion then you are assuming our HC for some unknown reason during the middle of the season decided to take out plays that were working successfully? Which one of these two options is more logical and probable... thats how I came to my assertion... but your that assertion shrinking the playbook hurt the offense is probably spot on you know more than any offensive coordinator or hc on the skins.

Zorn called a great offense from games 2-8 and really conservative from 8-16. Im not sure how we can come to a conclusion. I said in another post unless we sit and rewatch all games and try to analyze the numbers of plays called etc.

But players on our team said Z got unimaginative. Players on other teams said Z got unimaginative. Announcers said Z got unimaginative. The only people that dont think Z got unimaginative are on these messageboard.

Ok, how bout this example to illustrate, but not prove my point. Devin Thomas scores his first NFL TD on a great Reverse against NY. Great play. And it worked like a charm. You know why? Cause it was the first reverse called since Fred Davis's failed reverse against CLE. Before that CLE game we had seen reverses from Thomas, Moss, and ARE. Those reverses worked for some reason and worked in the RZ (ARE to Cooley in PHI). Those plays werent called for weeks. Why? Cause Jason couldnt handle handing a ball to a WR instead of a RB? Same thing with the Jumbo set we ran with 3 TEs early on in the RZ against AZ, NO, and in DAL. Didnt see it again till PITT. We scored with it. It went MIA for weeks. Why? Cause Campbell throwing TDs isnt the prefered result? Thats not "grasping it?"

Z could have just wanted to use more ball control passes while his RB was hurt midyear. He could have felt losses like STL and PITT were because he was too unconventional with his playcalls and just gone to basics. Who knows. But I cant look at the breadth of plays called early on, vs during the later games and say it increased or stayed the same. But I guess until I provide some commercial website's stats that confirm that its just an opinion. Fair enough, Ill see what I can do bro.

[Mahons21]

I thought I said I got the blitzing stats from SI. Go to a QB, theres a tab for passing splits. In there is numbers "while being blitzed" or "under blitz" or something like that
-Ill go check em out... I have usually seen people post direct links when they call something fact though.




Zorn called a great offense from games 2-8 and really conservative from 8-16. Im not sure how we can come to a conclusion. I said in another post unless we sit and rewatch all games and try to analyze the numbers of plays called etc.

But players on our team said Z got unimaginative. Players on other teams said Z got unimaginative. Announcers said Z got unimaginative. The only people that dont think Z got unimaginative are on these messageboard.

Ok, how bout this example to illustrate, but not prove my point. Devin Thomas scores his first NFL TD on a great Reverse against NY. Great play. And it worked like a charm. You know why? Cause it was the first reverse called since Fred Davis's failed reverse against CLE. Before that CLE game we had seen reverses from Thomas, Moss, and ARE. Those reverses worked for some reason and worked in the RZ (ARE to Cooley in PHI). Those plays werent called for weeks. Why? Cause Jason couldnt handle handing a ball to a WR instead of a RB? Same thing with the Jumbo set we ran with 3 TEs early on in the RZ against AZ, NO, and in DAL. Didnt see it again till PITT. We scored with it. It went MIA for weeks. Why? Cause Campbell throwing TDs isnt the prefered result? Thats not "grasping it?"

Z could have just wanted to use more ball control passes while his RB was hurt midyear. He could have felt losses like STL and PITT were because he was too unconventional with his playcalls and just gone to basics. Who knows. But I cant look at the breadth of plays called early on, vs during the later games and say it increased or stayed the same. But I guess until I provide some commercial website's stats that confirm that its just an opinion. Fair enough, Ill see what I can do bro.

-On the reverse... the play probably wasn't called for awhile because in the NFL if you starting running reverses every week... teams pick up on it... its not shrinking the playbook its trying to remain unpredictable

[Hunter_R]

its not shrinking the playbook its trying to remain unpredictable
Zorn failed miserably in that attempt.

[eljeasel]

-Ill go check em out... I have usually seen people post direct links when they call something fact though.

I see what youre saying. Some dude comes out with some stats claiming that a commonly accepted idea is false and doesnt cite some source? I might be suspicious too. If you end up finding out a game by game break down regarding blitz frequency or performance against the blitz, Id love to see that too.



-On the reverse... the play probably wasn't called for awhile because in the NFL if you starting running reverses every week... teams pick up on it... its not shrinking the playbook its trying to remain unpredictable

I totally get that. You want to stay dynamic. But I was using the reverse as an example of something I dont think I can statistically prove. So Ill lay off it in this thread unless someone else brings it up.


One of my friends explained Z to someone as someone who tried to be so unconventional he made himself conventional. Thats gibberish but it almost makes sense if my assertion is right.

[Mahons21]

I see what youre saying. Some dude comes out with some stats claiming that a commonly accepted idea is false and doesnt cite some source? I might be suspicious too. If you end up finding out a game by game break down regarding blitz frequency or performance against the blitz, Id love to see that too.
-I haven't been able to but your numbers are dead on from what I have found, now I interested in anaylzing these numbers a little more, as well as looking at qb's around the NFL not just the NFCe a division that both blitzes a lot and didn't all of our teams play the blitz happy steelers and Ravens?


One of my friends explained Z to someone as someone who tried to be so unconventional he made himself conventional. Thats gibberish but it almost makes sense if my assertion is right.
-True I just don't think anyone could logically follow your assertion, though Zorn may have lost logic.

[eljeasel]

-I haven't been able to but your numbers are dead on from what I have found, now I interested in anaylzing these numbers a little more, as well as looking at qb's around the NFL not just the NFCe a division that both blitzes a lot and didn't all of our teams play the blitz happy steelers and Ravens?

Oh Id love to see that kind of thing. I just picked the division because its similar competition. We all played similar opponents. Id expect someone like Brees or Warner would smoke the NFCE guys (cept McNabb).


-True I just don't think anyone could logically follow your assertion, though Zorn may have lost logic.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

[GreenRiggins]

You know, we must really have a sad QB situation when we are all clamoring to see our noodle-armed 3rd stringer.

Get Cutler if you can Dan.

[Taylorfan2179]

i think bradshaw is an idiot.

[HawaiianTime]

You know, we must really have a sad QB situation when we are all clamoring to see our noodle-armed 3rd stringer.

Get Cutler if you can Dan.


Ummm, that noodle arm lit ASU up like a Christmas tree and sent Dirk Koetter reeling with not just a loss, but a spanking. 5 TDs, Noodle Arm???, you jest.