WP: RI: The overnight developments in the Jay Cutler trade saga

[bubba9497]

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/



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Cutler: 'I Didn't Want It to Come to This'

The overnight developments in the Jay Cutler trade saga:

Cutler, interviewed by Jay Glazer of Fox Sports (http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=bbea54f0-2788-48a2-b55e-b51a462c242b) at a UCF event in Nashville, seems to have mixed emotions about all of this, according to Mike Klis of the Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_12051842).

"I was surprised they decided to trade me this soon," Cutler told FoxSports. "I didn't want to get traded. That wasn't me. They had been going back and forth saying things, wanting me to be their quarterback, and then they didn't. I really didn't want this. I love Denver. I really like my teammates. I didn't want it to get this far."

ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports that the Broncos have informed all teams that they'd like at least two first-round draft picks for Cutler and that a trade could come as early as tomorrow.

Mike Wilbon and Tony Kornheiser weighed in on the matter on Talking Points and if you think that this reminds them of Jeff George, you'd be right.

Video Link (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/cutler-i-didnt-want-it-to-come.html)

[Gator Bait]

this is nuts....two first round picks.....no way. I didn't even want to trade for him in the first place. Two first rounders would be madness....the guy isn't that good. He turns the ball over way too much.

[HigSkin]

2 first rounders is way too much. On Mike & Mike this morning, they mentioned it might even require a player on top of it.

[bikie]

we were trying to give Cincinnati two first rounders last year for chad johnson (how good are they feeling now about turning that down?).. I don't think our FO will blink at two 1st rounders and JC for cutler..

[GoSkins561]

2 - 1st Rounders????

Yeah right

[Mark The Homer]

If he didn't want it, why didn't he pick up his phone?

[Tastes Like Chicken]

For a franchise QB, sounds reasonable to me.

[#98QBKiller]

The kid isn't worth two 1st rounders.

[Spaceman Spiff]

They're just starting off the negotiations high. I'd really, really doubt that anyone gives up two first rounders for him.

I hope I just didn't jinx us.

[budski]

i can see this happening considering the redskins past history picking up people.

[JeepRyder]

He isnt worth it. Remember 4 of his games each year are against 2 of the worst teams in the NFL right now in Oakland and KC. Campbell is facing the best and doesnt turn the ball over as much as Cutler.

[Vicious]

If he didn't want it, why didn't he pick up his phone?

He says he never got called.. which worries me that they are dumping him.

[kingdaddy]

Cutler is signed for 3 more years and is a Pro Bowl QB who's in his mid 20's. I'd give up 2 first rounders, or a 1st, Campbell and a 3rd rounder next year. QB is the most important position on the team and if you can get a young pro bowler you do it. With the way we spend in free agency, we can do without 1st round picks for two years. Don't forget, getting Cutler is better than an an unknown 1st round pick straight up.

[Highway66]

this would be a big mistake utler is a little overrated and Campbell is slightly underrated.. TThe deal just doesnt make two first rounders worth of improvement to the team

[bubba9497]

2 first rounders is way too much. On Mike & Mike this morning, they mentioned it might even require a player on top of it.


we were trying to give Cincinnati two first rounders last year for chad johnson (how good are they feeling now about turning that down?).. I don't think our FO will blink at two 1st rounders and JC for cutler..

Cincinnati was a 1st and a third the following season, and no extra players either.


and how happy were we when it didn't go through

[JVSkins n Hokies]

Of course Cutler is going to say that he didn't want to be traded. he needs to at least show that there's some idea of a team player in him. Unfortunately, this statement drives up the cost.

I think at this point I'll just support the FO with whatever they do (regarding Cutler). I'm fine with giving Campbell another go.

[Larry Brown #43]

Two first rounders. Wow, that is a crap-load. But if we were willing to give Cincy two firsts for Ocho Stinko, I'm sure we'd give at least that much for Cutler.

Edit: I just read Bubba's version of the offer to Cincy above. I thought it was two firsts, but I certainly could be wrong.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

For a franchise QB, sounds reasonable to me.

Also, who's to say we can't do the two 1st rounders and JC and get a player in return?

[NicholSkin]

If the Skins trade 2 first rounders for Cutler I guarantee that he gets hurt significantly. Probably by an NFC East team.

If I am the Cowboys, Eagles, or Giants defense I think one thing, "Kill Cutler and the Redskins are out of the race for another 3 years."

[Tastes Like Chicken]

He isnt worth it. Remember 4 of his games each year are against 2 of the worst teams in the NFL right now in Oakland and KC. Campbell is facing the best and doesnt turn the ball over as much as Cutler.

yeah and we faced powerhouses last year like Cincinnati, San Fran, etc. How many TDs did 17 throw for last year? Last I checked, the team who scores more points WINS.

21 ppg last year makes us 12-4 with our defense, and that's BH (before Haynesworth).

[MartinC]

He says he never got called.. which worries me that they are dumping him.

Denver say they did call and have the phone records to prove it.

Two 1sts is the asking price and despite there being a number of teams interested this is some extent a buyers market. I think this years 1st and either Jason Campbell or Carlos Rogers should be our offer.

If its Carlos then we would have to deal Jason and that would make the rumors of us ringing around asking for a 2nd rounder tie in.

[PortisFan123]

The more I hear from you guys the more I think this is a mistake. Some of you are essentially saying Cutler sucks...

[Gator Bait]

QB is the most important position on the team and if you can get a young pro bowler you do it. With the way we spend in free agency, we can do without 1st round picks for two years. Don't forget, getting Cutler is better than an an unknown 1st round pick straight up.

the QB is worthless if you don't have a line to protect him. We need to use that 1st round pick to draft a RT. We already have a QB. Stick with JC....he gets better every year. He doesn't turn the ball over. He is a strong character guy.

Cutler is a whinney *****

have some loyalty people! Free Agency is the worst thing that ever happened to the Redskins.

[MartinC]

The more I hear from you guys the more I think this is a mistake. Some of you are essentially saying Cutler sucks...

I dont think he sucks. He is one of the best young QBs in the NFL right now and has potential to be a multi year pro bowl QB and we have not had one of those since Joe Theismann which is a while ago now.

However the price to get such a player is what has a few of us sucking in some breath. At some point what we have to give up in current or future players at positons like RT, DE and OLB outweigh the benefit of an upgrade at QB.

Where does the balance point lie? Subjective judgement that Vinny is paid a lot of cash to work out. For me this years first and either Campbell or Rogers would be doable. More and I think I would wish them well in getting what they preceive to be value from someone else.

[Chief skin]

this is nuts....two first round picks.....no way. I didn't even want to trade for him in the first place. Two first rounders would be madness....the guy isn't that good. He turns the ball over way too much.



He is not much better then Campbell (I am not a Campbell fan) but this cutler crap is just another bonehead mistake by danny vinny

[Big Mac Patty Wack]

Two first rounders is insane.

[MattFancy]

I wouldn't mind Cutler being here, but I hope we don't have to give up 2 1st rounders. I think JC and a 1st rounder is the most I would be willing to give up. If we do end up with him I hope we don't have to trade the farm to do it.

[brianm23]

this is nuts....two first round picks.....no way. I didn't even want to trade for him in the first place. Two first rounders would be madness....the guy isn't that good. He turns the ball over way too much.


2 first rounders is way too much. On Mike & Mike this morning, they mentioned it might even require a player on top of it.


2 - 1st Rounders????

Yeah right


The kid isn't worth two 1st rounders.

We gave up 2 first rounders for Jason Campbell.

We were basically willing to give up 2 first rounders for Chad Johnson.


So why don't you guys think a 25 year old Pro-Bowl QB is worth 2 first rounders again?




Cincinnati was a 1st and a third the following season, and no extra players either.


and how happy were we when it didn't go through


Well, they had escalators on the 3rd round pick that easily could have brought it up to another 1st round pick. Chances are it would have ended up being two 1st rounders for him.

[Andre3stacks]

werent they gonna let this man go for MAtt Cassell in the start?? Now they want 2 first rders?? and a player on top of that??

[Fred Jones]

I am against this trade, however, only franchise QB's are worth two first round picks. If Cutler is a franchise QB and plays for the next ten years he is worth the picks.

However, the question remains "IF".

I think some factors involved are the availability of a franchise LT at pick 13. Franchise LT's are second to QB's in worth.

Also, what can we get for Campbell? I bet not much at this point because teams know we are desparate.

[MartinC]

Also, what can we get for Campbell? I bet not much at this point because teams know we are desparate.

I agree. I think we would do well to get a 3rd for him.

Then again the Broncos are sort of in the same position with Cutler.

[THE OUTSIDER]

He is not much better then Campbell (I am not a Campbell fan) but this cutler crap is just another bonehead mistake by danny vinny

You have got to be kidding. Cutler's a pro bowler, Campbell isn't even close. As for giving up 2 first rounders, I don't like giving up that much, but I'd do it.

[McD5]

Easily worth two first rounders.

Get it done.

[OVCChairman]

There are few people in this league worth 2 first rounders.. and i dont really know if Cutler is one of those guys. If Danny and Vinny get this done, and he flops, we continue to be the laughing stock of football... and if he ends up helping turn this thing around... well we will still be the laughing stock, just not so hard..

[Yusuf06]

Cincinnati was a 1st and a third the following season, and no extra players either.


and how happy were we when it didn't go through
...not nearly as happy as we will be to hear we didn't give up two first rounders and a player in exchange for Cutler. ;)

[cannonshogs44]

For the love of GOD! Get him already so we can move on to the draft. Hmmm, ok we might not have much of a draft left, but lets move on already.

[benskins26]

Tom Brady is the only qb worth 2 firsts, and at his age, I'm not even sure about that.

[BuryYourDuke]

The kid is 13-1 when his team gives up 21 or less....13-1. The way Vinny drafts, 2 first rounders and Campbell is a good deal.

[SirClintonPortis]

It makes sense, after Jerruh spend 2 1st rounders on a good to very good receiver.
The bidding war will EASILY make it more than two first rounders. This year's third or one of next year's picks may have to go as well.

[Smoot Point Really]

Cutler is a year and a half younger than Campbell... has 1 more start than Campbell... Has thrown 90 more passes than Campbell... has 87 more completions than Campbell... and now for the telling stats: has 1800 more yards passing than Campbell... has 19 more TDs than Campbell... has 10 games where his team has scored more than 30 points (to Campbell's 2)...

Borrowing from Tandler's blog: We gave up 27 points once last year (pre-Haynesworth)... Cutler is 13-5 over his career when his team gives up 24 points or less on defense. Campbell is 16-14 in those situations over his career.

Even if it doesn't work out... The only justification for not getting this done would be giving up too much in the process... Two 1st round picks is not giving up too much for a proven franchise QB who is 25 and a Pro Bowler. Campbell is a good QB, but he hasn't proven to have the same potential as Cutler yet.

How much is too much? Laron Landry...

[benskins26]

I was amped about this deal originally, but the more I read about it, the more I think we're gonna get fleeced- like 2 1st rounders, Campbell, and rodgers. That would be a nightmare, and I'm worried something along those lines could happen.

[bikie]

Cincinnati was a 1st and a third the following season, and no extra players either.


and how happy were we when it didn't go through

it was a 1st and a 3rd that could escalate to another first... we were truly blessed they rejected that... far as cutler, I think the skins will do what they normally do and that's just skip the negotiating and offer more than anyone else... that is how we do business... peter king on sirius yesterday confirmed the skins were in fact the team that offered albert more than anyone else... reports that the bucs were willing to offer more were false.. and we'll do the same with cutler if we have our sights on him...

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

I was amped about this deal originally, but the more I read about it, the more I think we're gonna get fleeced- like 2 1st rounders, Campbell, and rodgers. That would be a nightmare, and I'm worried something along those lines could happen.

Not even I think the Mafia brothers are that stupid to be inclined in such a deal. If indeed we are looking for a 2nd in return for Campbell, Denver has to swallow.

[kappaluvacee]

He is not much better then Campbell (I am not a Campbell fan) but this cutler crap is just another bonehead mistake by danny vinny

Exactly. I actually like Campbell better than Cutler. If he didn't have the season he had last season he wouldn't even be a hop topic. Personally, I'll take Campbell's 1st half performance as my indication of the potential you have in your system.

I don't want to bash other divisions, but he didn't see the same level of competition that Jason saw in the NFC East. Those picks Cutler throws every game won't work in the NFC East. I completely understood where MGT stood regarding Jason's ball security issues, until last season because turnovers will cost you the game at any level, but especially at the NFL level in the NFC East.

Also people keep talking about getting 21 PPG out of Cutler in DC. No way that happens, I guess PHI, DAL, and NYG are supposed to suddenly start surrendering all those points regardless of their historic stinginess.

How soon we forget the the Spurrier experiment, where we figured mixing a high-powered offense would automatically give us 17 PPG. Mix that with Baltimore's defensive braintrust (Marvin Lewis) and we get an unstoppable combination right?---WRONG!

Here's a novel idea----Stick with the kid you already invested multiple picks to land. You have made a wise decision to not reward him with a contract extension (despite what JLC and conventional NFL heads think). Let the kid prove his metal and determine whether he should be rewarded an extension or not.

[TheLongshot]

Well, they had escalators on the 3rd round pick that easily could have brought it up to another 1st round pick. Chances are it would have ended up being two 1st rounders for him.

That would probably have required winning a Super Bowl. I don't know too many people on this board who wouldn't trade two 1st round picks for a super bowl win.

[SwampEm]

I think this is going to happen. If it doesn't JC17 is going to have a chip on his shoulder for the rest of his time in Washington.

[TheLongshot]

Even if it doesn't work out... The only justification for not getting this done would be giving up too much in the process... Two 1st round picks is not giving up too much for a proven franchise QB who is 25 and a Pro Bowler. Campbell is a good QB, but he hasn't proven to have the same potential as Cutler yet.

It is when you have other holes you need to fill on this team. If it doesn't work out, you are doubly screwed for years. Cutler has lots of potential, but there is no guarantee he will meet any of it.

[Bang]

Broncos have informed all teams that they'd like at least two first-round draft picks for Cutler

Hello, we're the Denver Broncos. We've so completely screwed up on this deal that Jay won't even answer his phone when we call. He's got a ton of talent, and he hates our new coach's guts. If we do force him to play here, we anticipate a huge struggle developing between him and the new coach. One of them will have to go.
We don't have any bargaining strength at all, because the player doesn't want to stay and the coach doesn't do anything that the player can trust.
So let's start the bidding at 2 first round picks.

No? No one?

~Bang

[goldenster95]

this is nuts....two first round picks.....no way. I didn't even want to trade for him in the first place. Two first rounders would be madness....the guy isn't that good. He turns the ball over way too much.

It would be nuts, but it's certainly not unprecedented. Remember that we supposedly tried to trade two firsts for Ocho Cinco.

[JetSkins]

two 1st round picks to solidify the QB position for 10 years seems pretty reasonable to me

[The Batman]

have some loyalty people! Free Agency is the worst thing that ever happened to the Redskins.

Yeah guys, that John Riggins guy SUCKED for us. He came from FA.

Wilber Marshall? Terrible.

Dave Butz? Didn't help us at all.

I mean, it's not like Cutler is coming via free agency. He's coming (if he does) via trade, like great Redskin Jim Lachey.

[TGI Jef]

if you are going to spend 2 first round picks on someone, you better be right about him.

the NFCBeast is going to be insane if we pull this deal.

QBs - Cutler, Manning, Romo, McNabb

RBs - Portis, Barber, Jacobs, Westbrook

all of the elite Dlineman and CBs and Olineman and LBers? are you kidding?

nfc east teams are gonig to demolish each other during the season.

[[[ghost]]]

2 first rounders for a you g franchise QB aren't outrageous. But I wouldn't like that for Cutler unless the second pick wasn't conditional.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

two 1st round picks to solidify the QB position for 10 years seems pretty reasonable to me

Exactly...this is a long-term move we're making. We solidify QB and then, in 2010 we'd have all picks except the first-rounder and in 2011 a full slate of picks. We may have to wait one extra year to start filling holes through the draft, but overall it doesn't set us back much.

Think about it...we can start solidfying the line in 2009 with Campbell (27) or we can start in 2010-2011 with Cutler (he'll be either 26 or 27). I'd choose the latter. We can still pick up FAs and use our other picks to fill some other holes (DE or LB) along the way.

[LoveDaSkins172645]

There is no way we should do this, I am not convinced that Jason is the answer either. I say we totally go another route. I think it should be a truly open QB competition between Jc and CB and let the better QB start. Why bring in another cry baby cancer in Cutler, we still aren't convinced that DHall is going to not cause problems now that he has the big money. It seems to me that if and I repeat IF this trade happens we are playing with FIRE and wearing gasoline underwear. Where the heck is Jack Kent Cooke when we REALLY NEED HIM!!!!

[Smoot Point Really]

It is when you have other holes you need to fill on this team. If it doesn't work out, you are doubly screwed for years. Cutler has lots of potential, but there is no guarantee he will meet any of it.

Is there more of a guarantee that 27-year old Jason Campbell will become a Pro Bowler? Is it more of a guarantee that anyone we draft with those picks becomes a Pro Bowler by the time they are 25?

If you are talking about the potential of Cutler, you have to realize that he has already met the potential of becoming a Pro Bowler... Whereas Campbell and any draft picks have not...

[redskin faithful]

This is nuts. Broncos want way too much for Cutler. I don't know why Snyder is pursuing Cutler so hard. QB is the least of our worries.

[kappaluvacee]

two 1st round picks to solidify the QB position for 10 years seems pretty reasonable to me
You presume the FO has a ten-year plan. I think not. Mr. Snyder is too impulsive to see anything beyond 3 years at a time with our FO and that is contingent on what sexy player from another team's roster may be coming available at any time.

[rick1796]

I personally don't think Jay Cutler is two first round draft picks better than JC. That's just a huge margine for a guy that played with a better O-line, better recievers, and a very good offensive minded head coach. That's not to say i don't think he is better, just not THAT much better. So i say no to two first and JC. Maybe to one first and JC and a mid rounder next year.

Also, if someone says anything about trading C-Los again i am gonna be sick. We have two VERY good corners, a decent third and some youth at 4th and 5th CB's. that sounds great. Now try one very good cb, one very below average starter, and completely inexperienced 3rd 4ths and 5ths. . . .

[JetSkins]

some of you act like franchise QBs grow on trees or something.

[Thinking Skins]

Exactly...this is a long-term move we're making. We solidify QB and then, in 2010 we'd have all picks except the first-rounder and in 2011 a full slate of picks. We may have to wait one extra year to start filling holes through the draft, but overall it doesn't set us back much.

Think about it...we can start solidfying the line in 2009 with Campbell (27) or we can start in 2010-2011 with Cutler (he'll be either 26 or 27). I'd choose the latter. We can still pick up FAs and use our other picks to fill some other holes (DE or LB) along the way.

you make it sound so simple. Then in 2011, we see that Cutler is closer to Jake Plummer or Rex Grossman than to Brett Favre. Then we start over again and we're the 2001 version of the Minnesota Vikings, except at least they learned from their mistake. We'll be finding the next hot commodity and saying that we're only one player away.

[Thinking Skins]

some of you act like franchise QBs grow on trees or something.

and others act like one season makes a franchise QB.

[Rexrode21]

Jason Campbell + next year's first rounder + this year's 3rd? And yes, this would put me as pro-Cutler. But i figure if we can get away with this, we can still pick up Oher, Smith or a good OLB and make this a real push for an NFC East title and maybe go far in the playoffs. But hey, I'm a Redskins fan so of course we're 1 or 2 players away right?!

[Veretax]

Denver say they did call and have the phone records to prove it.

Two 1sts is the asking price and despite there being a number of teams interested this is some extent a buyers market. I think this years 1st and either Jason Campbell or Carlos Rogers should be our offer.

If its Carlos then we would have to deal Jason and that would make the rumors of us ringing around asking for a 2nd rounder tie in.

Yeah I agree 2 First Rounders and a player for one player is insane. He's not that GOOD yet to be worth it. Although, The thought has occured to me that what if the Skins are involved in this deal but not how we think.

What about this.


Skins #13 worth 1150 Pts

Detroit #20 850 pts
Detroit #33 580

Skins #13 Plus Lions #20 2000 (could be enough to trade up to the 3rd(2200) KC maybe 4th(1800) spot Seattle)

Skins 313 Plus Lions #33 1730 (enough to trade to the 4th(1800) Seattle or 5th (1700) Cleveland spot)

Lions Picks by Round: 1st (1st), 1st (20th), 2nd (33rd), 3rd (65th), 3rd (82nd), 5th, 6th, 6th

Bucs #19 875
Bucs #51 390

Skins #13 + Bucs #19 = 2025 could be enough to trade up to the 3rd(2200) KC maybe 4th(1800) spot Seattle)

Skins #13 + Bucs #51 = 1540 could be enough to move to 5th(1700) (Cleveland), 6th(1600) (Cincinnatti) or 7th(1500) (Jacksonville), but might take more to move up.

49ers Picks By Round: Has Picks: 1st (10th), 2nd (43rd), 3rd (74th), 4th (111th), 5th (146th), 6th, 7th

49ers Pick #10 1300
49ers Pick #43 470

Skins #13 + 49ers #10 = 2450 (Easily enough to move to #3 or with more ammo to #2)

Skins #13 + 49ers #43 = 1620 (Enough to move to 6th (1600) Cincy or 7th (1500) Oakland.

I'm not sure there are any other teams that are in need of a QB and would be interested in Jason Campbell, but What do you guys think about maybe, we trade Campbell for a draft pick (or maybe 2 lower draft picks a 2nd and a third), and then use that as ammunition to trade up to draft, say Mark Sanchez?)


That's what I'm wondering, word is that Vinny and Zorn are enamored with Sanchez, so maybe a JC trade happens, but not to get cutler, maybe to get ammunition to get Sanchez?

[StillUnknown]

he has too many questions to be worth 2 first round picks

[ntotoro]

and others act like one season makes a franchise QB.

That's the problem when we haven't had a franchise QB in decades and still don't have one.

[benskins26]

That's the problem when we haven't had a franchise QB in decades and still don't have one.

Yeah, no one in DC even knows what a franchise QB looks like. Hasn't happened since I've been a fan.

[Bang]

you make it sound so simple. Then in 2011, we see that Cutler is closer to Jake Plummer or Rex Grossman than to Brett Favre. Then we start over again and we're the 2001 version of the Minnesota Vikings, except at least they learned from their mistake. We'll be finding the next hot commodity and saying that we're only one player away.

Trouble is, nothing you've seen out of Cutler could lead anyone to think he's as bad as Rex Grossman or Jake Plummer.

When he was drafted, every scout in the league said that he'd be the QB out of that class to be special and so far he's lived up to it. I never noticed Plummer or Grossman throwing for 4500+ yards in a season. (Fact is, only 12 other QBs have ever had a season like that in NFL history.)

Cutler's the real deal. He has something we haven't had in a QB around here since Joe Theismann. Fire.

~Bang

[Bang]

some of you act like franchise QBs grow on trees or something.

Of course they do, and top notch Running Backs are a dime a dozen.

You can read about that and other myths in my new book "Bull**** Football Clichés To Fool and Impress Clueless Fans" due out next month.

~Bang

[TD_washingtonredskins]

you make it sound so simple. Then in 2011, we see that Cutler is closer to Jake Plummer or Rex Grossman than to Brett Favre. Then we start over again and we're the 2001 version of the Minnesota Vikings, except at least they learned from their mistake. We'll be finding the next hot commodity and saying that we're only one player away.

Well, it's not EASY, but addressing the lines is addressing the lines. It's a crap-shoot with who we pick up regardless of the QB under center.

Therefore, I'd rather be fortifying my lines around Cutler than Campbell. He's younger AND more likely to be a fixture at QB for 10 years in my opinion. Could I be wrong? Absolutely.

[Thinking Skins]

Trouble is, nothing you've seen out of Cutler could lead anyone to think he's as bad as Rex Grossman or Jake Plummer.

When he was drafted, every scout in the league said that he'd be the QB out of that class to be special and so far he's lived up to it. I never noticed Plummer or Grossman throwing for 4500+ yards in a season. (Fact is, only 12 other QBs have ever had a season like that in NFL history.)

Cutler's the real deal. He has something we haven't had in a QB around here since Joe Theismann. Fire.

~Bang

Like I said in another post though, Plummer threw for 4000 yards in Denver. Griese was averaging about 250 ypg. Its not that much of a stretch.

Fact is Shanahan has a rep as a genius and a QB guru. Meanwhile, JC isn't the only QB to have put up the type of numbers he put up last year, we've been known for that for the last 20 years. I think both were set up by their system more than individual abilities.

So Culter is being seen as a god because he was in a really good developed system, and Campbell is being seen as a goat because he aws in a really bad system.

[Peregrine]

Two first rounders for a QB that has never had a QB rating above 88.5? I dont think he is a bad QB, but I dont think he has done enough to merit that. He had a good offensive line that has allowed few sacks, and he still could only muster an 86. That is good for 16th in the NFL.

[benskins26]

Of course they do, and top notch Running Backs are a dime a dozen.

You can read about that and other myths in my new book "Bull**** Football Clichés To Fool and Impress Clueless Fans" due out next month.

~Bang


HAHAHAAHAHA. Funny ****.

Seriously though, where can I get a copy?:silly:

[Thinking Skins]

Well, it's not EASY, but addressing the lines is addressing the lines. It's a crap-shoot with who we pick up regardless of the QB under center.

Therefore, I'd rather be fortifying my lines around Cutler than Campbell. He's younger AND more likely to be a fixture at QB for 10 years in my opinion. Could I be wrong? Absolutely.

yeah, and I'd rather have an owner who wasn't so enamored with the shiny object over there.

This is reminding me more and more of the offseason that we got rid of Brad Johnson to bring in Jeff George.

[benskins26]

Like I said in another post though, Plummer threw for 4000 yards in Denver. Griese was averaging about 250 ypg. Its not that much of a stretch.

Fact is Shanahan has a rep as a genius and a QB guru. Meanwhile, JC isn't the only QB to have put up the type of numbers he put up last year, we've been known for that for the last 20 years. I think both were set up by their system more than individual abilities.

So Culter is being seen as a god because he was in a really good developed system, and Campbell is being seen as a goat because he aws in a really bad system.

I dont know about all that, but I will say, as an SEC fan, I never understood what the big deal was about him in college anyway. In fact, I was really surprised with all the accolades he was getting heading up to the draft.

[bubba9497]

Cutler's the real deal. He has something we haven't had in a QB around here since Joe Theismann. Fire.

~Bang

Joey T, never whined or cried when things didn't go his way.... heck he returned punts to get to play, and contribute

Theismann went to Gibbs when he had a problem with him and the offense, not duck his calls.

[buzz1522]

I think we should give Campbell another 5 years...hell like somebody else said he gets better every year...imagine how far above average he'll be then??? Maybe by then he will have stopped starring down his receivers, ignoring Cooley, and have increased his average completed pass play to beyond 6 yards. My God imagine the possibilities...Yea lets be honest Vinnys draft record is so good that we need to keep our #1 picks so we can overpay for unproven players who chances are will not develop into anything more than practice squad fodder. Least I forget what a character guy Campbell is, Holy smokes whats that worth...4 or 5 wins a year???? Lets pass up an opportunity to get a guy who makes quick decisions, has a cannon for an arm and is 13 and 1 when his defense holds the other team to 21 points or less....now everybody grab your Campbell jersey, light a candle and sing Kumbaya...

[HA1LV1CT0RY]

Denver say they did call and have the phone records to prove it.

Two 1sts is the asking price and despite there being a number of teams interested this is some extent a buyers market. I think this years 1st and either Jason Campbell or Carlos Rogers should be our offer.

If its Carlos then we would have to deal Jason and that would make the rumors of us ringing around asking for a 2nd rounder tie in.

But since they ruled out needing a QB, that hurts our chances. I personally would like to keep our 1st this year and give next year's so we can address OT.

My ideal trade would be this year's third, next year's 1st and third, and possibly JC. But one can dream.

[bubba9497]

some of you act like franchise QBs grow on trees or something.


franchise QB, one of those buzz words, that really doesn't have a definite meaning, but used too often when trying sway an argument.


And a 17-20 w/l record, and 18 ints kind of suggests whatever a franchise QB is.... Cutler might not be one

[LD0506]

As usual, we have the Offseason LOLpalooza, the names change but the song remains the same.


Step 1. ______________ is said to be unhappy, wants to be traded, wants to renegotiate his contract, is rumored to be replaced or cut, etc., etc. and so on.

Step 2. Hacks and flacks in the media grind out their usual tripe about options, suitors and possible bidders and automatically name the Redskins as being in the hunt without a shred of evidence.

Step 3. The WhackFaction in the fanbase gets all moist at the prospect, spews out all manner of scenarios that can all be filed in the same category: Stupid :pooh:, while dismissing any of the items in file: Reality that would quickly put an end to all their fantasies.

Step 4. The ANTI-WhackFaction goes and takes them all far too seriously and has to mount a running battle against their nonsense rather than just realizing that the kiddie table is always unruly.

Step 5. After days of E!SPN inspired idiocy a deal is/isn't made that renders the entire discussion moot since it turns out that the dreaded/coveted trade never stood a snowball's chance in Hell anyway.

Step 6. The clamor dies down as the herd goes off in search of the next BoyBand fad to throw their panties at.

Step 7. Intelligent people laugh at them all and dismiss them as fools.

Rinse, repeat next spring

[TheLongshot]

Trouble is, nothing you've seen out of Cutler could lead anyone to think he's as bad as Rex Grossman or Jake Plummer.

When he was drafted, every scout in the league said that he'd be the QB out of that class to be special and so far he's lived up to it. I never noticed Plummer or Grossman throwing for 4500+ yards in a season. (Fact is, only 12 other QBs have ever had a season like that in NFL history.)

Cutler's the real deal. He has something we haven't had in a QB around here since Joe Theismann. Fire.

~Bang

Rex Grossman probably could have in 2006 if he had the receivers Cutler had last year.

Course, what is not mentioned much is that a lot of those yards were YAC by the receivers. He threw about as many short balls as Campbell did last year.

So far, it seems you are sold on him for one good season. Right now, any projection for him is on his potential, not what he's already done. The price they are asking is a lot for just potential.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

yeah, and I'd rather have an owner who wasn't so enamored with the shiny object over there.

This is reminding me more and more of the offseason that we got rid of Brad Johnson to bring in Jeff George.

Except:

1) Johnson led us to the playoffs and had a Pro Bowl season.
2) We never "got rid" of Johnson for George...we brought George in as the backup and Johnson struggled all season

[Thinking Skins]

Except:

1) Johnson led us to the playoffs and had a Pro Bowl season.
2) We never "got rid" of Johnson for George...we brought George in as the backup and Johnson struggled all season

still, that is what this reminds me of.

[GothSkinsFan]

If the Skins trade for Cutler I will watch whomever Gus plays for. This is just maddeningly stupid. 2 first rounders would be like borrowing our GDP and expecting there to be any future. Oh wait....

[Bang]

Joey T, never whined or cried when things didn't go his way.... heck he returned punts to get to play, and contribute

Theismann went to Gibbs when he had a problem with him and the offense, not duck his calls.
Well, nevermind he has an arm like a cannon and actually leads his offenses to touchdowns. I mean, what exactly is important in a QB? So he's a bit of a diva, who cares? The list of the greatest Redskins ever is full of guys who were not what we'd consider acceptable today. (Could you imagine the reaction of this board had we acquired John Riggins now? Mohawk wearing slacker,, head case,, locker room problem,, then imagine further the reaction of this board when he walked out on the team,, and then again when he came back. You know as well as I do the climate of this board would have made him the most hated man in town. And yet....)

I just don't get where Cutler has "whined and cried".
Cutler has had sit downs with the Broncos, and nothing was resolved. If the relationship is broken, why bother to return calls? He owes this clown McDaniel nothing. McDaniel, the kiddie coach with a resume as long as a grain of rice, has screwed this up. He has apparently screwed this up so bad that Cutler doesn't feel like he can trust him. Pat Bowlen is at fault too because he should have told McDaniel to sit down and shut up when the trade notion first came up. But he didn't, and the Broncos then proceeded to try and wheel and deal and swing a trade that would have landed the oh-so luminous Matt Cassell to replace their first round pick hotshot money-in-the-bank QB.

From Cutler's perspective, his brand new coach's first order of business was to try to trade him after a 4500+ yard season for a one hit wonder QB with a resumé equally as short as McDaniel's.


I bet Joe would have had a problem with that, too.

~Bang

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

2 1st Rounders?

No ****ing way is that worth it.

[mnb123]

Teams know that Denver has no choice but to ditch him at this point, so that will definitely drive the price down.

[BAFGA]

Yeah guys, that John Riggins guy SUCKED for us. He came from FA.

Wilber Marshall? Terrible.

Dave Butz? Didn't help us at all.

I mean, it's not like Cutler is coming via free agency. He's coming (if he does) via trade, like great Redskin Jim Lachey.

Those were all pre-Snyderatto. You should use some examples in this century.

[RedskinInExile]

2 1st Rounders?

No ****ing way is that worth it.

Very much agreed. We're several years away from putting together a really solid team and we're going to need those picks to pull it off. And yes, Cutler is an upgrade, but he's not The Answer. Don't do it, Danny

[Thirtyfive2seven]

The only gripe I have with Cutler were his latest statements about how he didn't want the trade to happen. He told the Broncos that he wanted out and now he's saying he didn't want it to come to this?? Just man up and say I wanted out and I got what i wanted.

Anyways, just make it happen Vinny.

[RedskinInExile]

Teams know that Denver has no choice but to ditch him at this point, so that will definitely drive the price down.

True, but there are a bunch of teams clamoring for Jay. I'm afraid Danny is going to be worried that if he doesn't pay sticker price, the Broncos will find someone who will. Demand is way up, and Danny's not exactly known for playing hardball in these situations

[Bang]

Rex Grossman probably could have in 2006 if he had the receivers Cutler had last year.

Course, what is not mentioned much is that a lot of those yards were YAC by the receivers. He threw about as many short balls as Campbell did last year.

So far, it seems you are sold on him for one good season. Right now, any projection for him is on his potential, not what he's already done. The price they are asking is a lot for just potential.

You're right, I am sold on potential, and I am sold on it based on what he's done so far to meet that potential.
Grossman may have had that year in 06.. except he also had 6 games with a rating under 50, including three of the lowest rated games by a starting QB ever. :hysterical:
That guy is a shoe salesman this time next year. Any bets?

I don't dislike Campbell, but I think it's starting to become clear he's not built for the direction we're going in. For a Gibbsian offense with play action passes, seven step drops and deep throws he certainly fits, but for the game we're running now, I'm not so sure. I disliked more than I liked in what I saw out of him last year.

I think that unless you are 100% sold on your QB, (and I don't think we honestly can be at this juncture) you owe it to yourself to explore the possibilities when a guy like Cutler comes available at such a young age. It doesn't happen often.

~Bang

[herb mul-key]

thing is now we have ruined JC and the locker room for delving into this IMHO

[MartinC]

thing is now we have ruined JC and the locker room for delving into this IMHO

We might be burning our bridges with JC but the locker room? I doubt that. The players understand this is a business. If we do get Cutler and he plays well then guys like Moss, Cooley, Thomas etc will be DELIGHTED as they see their catches, yardage and TDs go up.

Winning would be the key. That solves most things in a locker room.

[Bang]

As usual, we have the Offseason LOLpalooza, the names change but the song remains the same.


Step 1. ______________ is said to be unhappy, wants to be traded, wants to renegotiate his contract, is rumored to be replaced or cut, etc., etc. and so on.

Step 2. Hacks and flacks in the media grind out their usual tripe about options, suitors and possible bidders and automatically name the Redskins as being in the hunt without a shred of evidence.

Step 3. The WhackFaction in the fanbase gets all moist at the prospect, spews out all manner of scenarios that can all be filed in the same category: Stupid :pooh:, while dismissing any of the items in file: Reality that would quickly put an end to all their fantasies.

Step 4. The ANTI-WhackFaction goes and takes them all far too seriously and has to mount a running battle against their nonsense rather than just realizing that the kiddie table is always unruly.

Step 5. After days of E!SPN inspired idiocy a deal is/isn't made that renders the entire discussion moot since it turns out that the dreaded/coveted trade never stood a snowball's chance in Hell anyway.

Step 6. The clamor dies down as the herd goes off in search of the next BoyBand fad to throw their panties at.

Step 7. Intelligent people laugh at them all and dismiss them as fools.

Rinse, repeat next spring

How arrogant.
I wonder if the intelligent fans in New Orleans are laughing at everyone who got moist over apparent bust Drew Brees?
How about those smart Dolphins fans who just KNEW that rag-arm Chad Pennington would only make their 1 win team worse? What a knee slapper of a laff-riot for them, eh?
And who can forget those oh-so-smart Cardinals fans who must have had a real gutbuster of a time laughing at everyone who wanted to bring in old washed up Kurt Warner? Wow, they sure had THAT one all figured out, huh?
Those clowns up in Seattle sure got stuck with Matt Hasselbeck, and who in their right mind in Tampa didn't howl with laughter when they thought about Brad Johnson coming in?

One has to wonder how intelligent Patriots fans have been able to survive the gales of gut-busting laughter at all the hilarious moves they've considered. Rodney Harrison? What a pisser! Randy Moss? Team cancer! Who needs him! Har-de har har har. Mike Vrable? Why bother, he can't even play for the Steelers! hahaha! Stupid fans that wanted Wes Welker ... what morons!
I swear, laughing at them is so EASY because they're always... well, sometimes.. occasionally,, uh, wrong.

But not always. Not even close.
And smart fans know that, right?

~Bang

[TD_washingtonredskins]

still, that is what this reminds me of.

Well, if no parallels need to be drawn for reminders, then this reminds me of when the Pats acquired Brady and the Packers traded for Favre.

[The Batman]

Those were all pre-Snyderatto. You should use some examples in this century.

Since you asked.

Clinton Portis, single season Redskin rushing record holder - Trade.

Santana Moss, single season Redskin receiving record holder - Trade.

Todd Collins, who ripped off a 4 game win streak on the way to a playoff berth - FA.

Mark Brunell, who, while much maligned, gave us a playoff season and arguably our most memorable win in Dallas ever (and, let's not forget, possibly SAVED JOE GIBBS' LIFE by driving him to the hospital before JG knew he had diabetes) - Trade.

London Fletcher, the heart and soul of our top-ranked defenses the past 2 years - FA.

Randy Thomas, an institution at RG - FA.

Are you satisfied? Or should I dig further?

[LD0506]

How arrogant.
I wonder if the intelligent fans in New Orleans are laughing at everyone who got moist over apparent bust Drew Brees?
How about those smart Dolphins fans who just KNEW that rag-arm Chad Pennington would only make their 1 win team worse? What a knee slapper of a laff-riot for them, eh?yadda yadda yadda.......

Yeah, exactly the same situations.

Lil fired up today are we? http://www.freefever.com/animatedgifs/animated/smileys14.gif

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Yeah, exactly the same situations.

Lil fired up today are we? http://www.freefever.com/animatedgifs/animated/smileys14.gif

That's it? No content??

So, he gives you countless, recent examples and you provide a smiley as a retort? Nice.

[Jimbo]

Well, nevermind he has an arm like a cannon and actually leads his offenses to touchdowns. I mean, what exactly is important in a QB? So he's a bit of a diva, who cares? The list of the greatest Redskins ever is full of guys who were not what we'd consider acceptable today. (Could you imagine the reaction of this board had we acquired John Riggins now? Mohawk wearing slacker,, head case,, locker room problem,, then imagine further the reaction of this board when he walked out on the team,, and then again when he came back. You know as well as I do the climate of this board would have made him the most hated man in town. And yet....)

I just don't get where Cutler has "whined and cried".
Cutler has had sit downs with the Broncos, and nothing was resolved. If the relationship is broken, why bother to return calls? He owes this clown McDaniel nothing. McDaniel, the kiddie coach with a resume as long as a grain of rice, has screwed this up. He has apparently screwed this up so bad that Cutler doesn't feel like he can trust him. Pat Bowlen is at fault too because he should have told McDaniel to sit down and shut up when the trade notion first came up. But he didn't, and the Broncos then proceeded to try and wheel and deal and swing a trade that would have landed the oh-so luminous Matt Cassell to replace their first round pick hotshot money-in-the-bank QB.

~Bang

Well said Bang. Riggins was a flake by today's standards but he was ALWAYS a team guy. Yes, the money was about "me" because he wanted to be paid and he he a bit of an ego, ergo "Ron may be the President but tonight I'm the King", but did he say that in the same vain as someone like TO? No way. Riggo would miss a week of practice and then crawl out of a hospital bed, get shot up and play at a high level on Sunday.

What does this have to do with Cutler? While I understand the Jeff George comparisons, Cutler actually understands what leadership is. The guy is still young and maturing yet has a commanding presence in the huddle. I say he's more like Brett Favre than Jeff George. Brett took a little time to mature but, like Cutler and like Riggo, he was a TEAM guy. A TEAM guy doesn't always agree with the FO but he ALWAYS has his teammates back. Clinton Portis is another guy in this mold. He and Zorn didn't always agree but he was always ready to give his teammates 100%.

Pat Bowlen is admired around the NFL because he knows the game but stays in the background. This is one time he stayed in the background WAY too long. He should have stepped in and called Cutler. I'm sure Cutler was more likely to take a call from him than Boy Wonder if, in fact, Joshie actually DID attempt to call him. We just don't know the facts there. A call from Daddy Figure Bowlen would have held a LOT more weight with Jay, I'm sure. Cutler is not blameless here but he's still a kid and has some growing to do. His thinking is, we have a damn good offense.....it ain't broke so don't overhaul it, just tweak it. Joshie and Daddy Pat have to share at least half the blame here because they did a horrible job of trying to show the young face of their franchise what they were attempting to do and WHY they were doing it. Effective communication usually results in buy-in. Lack of communication causes balking. What we had here was a failure to communicate.

[Bang]

Yeah, exactly the same situations.

Lil fired up today are we? http://www.freefever.com/animatedgifs/animated/smileys14.gif

What are the differences in the situations? Please?

And yeah, when someone posts something literally as arrogant as what you posted (essentially anyone who thinks these moves might be a good idea is an idiot to be mocked) it tends to fire me up a little. (but it's nothing personal.)

~Bang

[LD0506]

What are the differences in the situations? Please?

And yeah, when someone posts something literally as arrogant as what you posted (essentially anyone who thinks these moves might be a good idea is an idiot to be mocked) it tends to fire me up a little. (but it's nothing personal.)

~Bang

Well for starters, most of the guys you named have actually accomplished far more in the pros than Cutler has, as has been pointed out a million times today you want to trade for his potential, not his resume. And do refresh my memory, I don't recall that the Cards or Dolphins or any others paid multiple first day picks AND a starter to get the QB they wanted, did they? The kid seems to have serious red flags, maybe not evidence that would stand up in court but people should be wondering. Big difference.

And my initial comment had nothing to do with getting Cutler, not getting Cutler or his merits compared to Campbell, it was about the herd mentality of these things that we see all the time.

Chad Johnson.

Lance Briggs.

TO.

On and on, whenever any of these little escapades gets going there is a minimal amount of genuine discussion about the value of the deal, what it costs, what the guy brings, what his weaknesses are, etc., compared to the parade of gushers, swooners and general groupie wanna-bes screaming at the stage door for a glimpse of their hero-du-jour. Read through the most active threads today and deny that's what's happening. I haven't seen this much hyperbole since.......... well, since the last election.

[TheLongshot]

I think that unless you are 100% sold on your QB, (and I don't think we honestly can be at this juncture) you owe it to yourself to explore the possibilities when a guy like Cutler comes available at such a young age. It doesn't happen often.

I don't argue against exploring it, but I also don't think it is a no-brainer to do this deal, particularly with what Denver is asking for him. And what good is getting him if you can't fix the other holes on your team?

As I said in another thread, this is an all-in bet. If you win, you are good, but if you lose, you just set your franchise back a few years. We've already seen the effect of the Lloyd and Duckett trades.

[Brooklynskinsfan]

this would be a big mistake utler is a little overrated and Campbell is slightly underrated.. TThe deal just doesnt make two first rounders worth of improvement to the team

exactly cutler does not make us that much better and its not like brandon marshall will be coming with him

[Ryman of the North]

Cutler, yes for 2 firsts no. If Matt Cassel went for a second why would we send 2 firsts for Cutler?