WP: Dispute over flag protest erupts in Wisc. village

[SkinInsite]

WAUSAU, Wis. -- An American flag flown upside down as a protest in a northern Wisconsin village was seized by police before a Fourth of July parade and the businessman who flew it - an Iraq war veteran - claims the officers trespassed and stole his property.

A day after the parade, police returned the flag and the man's protest - over a liquor license

The American Civil Liberties Union of Wisconsin is considering legal action against the village of Crivitz for violating Vito Congine Jr.'s' First Amendment rights, Executive Director Chris Ahmuty said.
"It is not often that you see something this blatant," Ahmuty said.
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2009/07/10/PH2009071002731.jpg


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/10/AR2009071002576.html?referrer=reddit

[wantarace17]

He can protest in another way.

[MurrayH81]

4th Amendment -

The right of the people to be secure in their persons,
houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and
seizures, shall not be violated; and no Warrants shall issue but
upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and
particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons
or things to be seized.

The removal of his property, displayed as a non-violent protest, seems excessive, especially considering this quote from the story -

"Marinette County Sheriff Jim Kanikula said it was not illegal to fly the flag upside down but people were upset and it was the Fourth of July. "It is illegal to cause a disruption," he said."

Obviously there are things that are not being said in the story.

Did this man have a verbal agreement or a reasonable expectation of receiving a liquor license from the town council? Did he just piss someone off and that councilperson has made their pesonal thing become a problem for a citizen and taxpayer/potential source of business taxation? Is the restaraunt located next to a school or something like that?

[zoony]

I can't think of a bigger insult to the spirit of the 4th of July than for the cops to do what they did.


Better to point and laugh at the loser cry-baby whos wittul feewings are hurt 'cause he can't get a liquor license

[ACW]

Couldn't the cops have just asked the man why his flag was upside-down? :idea:

[gbear]

Wait, flying a flag upside down is disrespectful?

Crap. if it's turned 90 degrees, which side should have the stars, up or down? I occasssionaly have one in front of our house in the garden.

On the story side, nothing was illegal and it was on his property, but the police thought it ok to remove it (even if they gave it back). Where does that authority come from?

Are we now only allowed to protest in ways others find they can ignore even if we follow all laws? Wow. I sometimes wonder what people think that flag really stands for if not for the ability to disagree with everything the government it stands for does and says without legal reprocussions. I would view the taking of my property by an officer as a legal reprocussion. Unless the flying of the flag upside down is illegal, and the article says it's not, then the taking of it was unconstitutional invassion and theft. I would not think the return of an item means it was not stollen in the first place.

[PokerPacker]

:doh: 1st AND 4th amendments ignored, there.

[SkinsBry]

The guy wants to start his own business and they are prohibitting him from doing so. Is this the correct mode of protest? Maybe not, but he's not hurting anyone, unlike the village is financially hurting him. How many of those people that got their panties in a bunch over his flag also make a stink about anyone who leaves their flag up at night time without a light on it? How many of those cops take those flags down?

[MurrayH81]

I would think that it's perfectly reasonable for the police to investigate a flag flying upside down, given it's meaning, so the trespass is out. And they gave it back, so the stealing is out. The guy sounds looney, he should verify the liquor license before spending the 200K.

It's not stealing if someone gives it back after they seized it without due process or legal authority? Where exactly do you live? I promise I will bring your stuff back later (sometime):cool2:.


He can protest in another way.
People can choose to protest in any legal way they wish to. The government has no rights not granted to it in the Constitution, Laws, or City Charter. People retain all other rights not granted to Government.

[skinfan13]

Investigating the flag being upside down was the right call. their reasoning was wrong however. The flag being flown upside down is a symbol of immediate distress and it is a legitimate way of flying the flag in the event you need immediate attention from authorities etc.

confiscating the flag is inappropriate. flying the flag that way without legitimate reason should be treated seriously but taking the flag is unreasonable seizure. this man has a case against the police.

@ whoever mentioned the flag flying after dusk unlit: it's in the US code, but as I understand it it's not illegal to fly it at night unlit. that part of the US code concerning flag etiquette isn't enforceable law, it's just guidelines I believe. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

[SkinsBry]

Better to point and laugh at the loser cry-baby whos wittul feewings are hurt 'cause he can't get a liquor license

He put his ass on the line in Iraq for this country and invested $200,000 to pursue the American Dream. A group of people using their government positions are standing in his way.

Calling him a loser cry-baby is out of line, but I expect nothing less from you.

[ljs]

Wait, flying a flag upside down is disrespectful?

Crap. if it's turned 90 degrees, which side should have the stars, up or down? I occasssionaly have one in front of our house in the garden
.

FYI
http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/flagetiq.html

Flag Code-United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 — The Flag
http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/flagcode.htm

TO add on 08-21-59 Executive order 10834
http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/more/10834.htm


WHEREAS the Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 1949 (63 Stat. 377), as amended, authorizes the President to prescribe policies and directives governing the procurement and utilization of property by executive agencies; and

WHEREAS the interests of the Government require that orderly and reasonable provision be made for various matters pertaining to the flag and that appropriate regulations governing the procurement and utilization of national flags and union jacks by executive agencies be prescribed:

[PokerPacker]

He put his ass on the line in Iraq for this country and invested $200,000 to pursue the American Dream. A group of people using their government positions are standing in his way.

Calling him a loser cry-baby is out of line, but I expect nothing less from you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Zoony, but taken in context with the rest of the post, I'd say Zoony was being sarcastic with that part.

[sacase]

According to the police, received some emotional calls, then they tried to contact the guy and could not get through to him. They then took the flag down because they were afraid something would happen to his property, which was right next to the parade route. So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest, which they returned after the parade. They police's story seems logical to me, given the fact that the flag pole has already been vandalized.

Could they ask him to take it down and explain to him why they would like him to take it down for one day? Sure. Can they go on his property and take it down because it might cause problems. Nope. Its still theft, even if they returned it the next day. While I don't like the idea of him doing that...its within his rights.

[MintHillSkinsFan]

Dude should've caught the ass whupping of his life for disrespecting the flag like that. Either that or been deported to Berkely with the rest of the hippies.

[MurrayH81]

According to the police, received some emotional calls, then they tried to contact the guy and could not get through to him. They then took the flag down because they were afraid something would happen to his property, which was right next to the parade route. So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest, which they returned after the parade. They police's story seems logical to me, given the fact that the flag pole has already been vandalized.

I don't see anything you are claiming (emotional calls, attempts to contact, concern over potential vandalization) in the story text. Where are you getting the information? If the police received some emotional calls, threatening vandalism (typically a crime) of the property of a citizen, the correct response is to let those callers know that their course of action is illegal and will not be tolerated. The police should also ensure that their presence in the vicinity of the property to protect it is duly noted by other citizens.

This looks like small town politics run amok. I live in a small town and this type of crappy behavior occurs all the time.

Your logic is understandable, but it actions taken by the police (as detailed in the OP link) are wrong and Unconstitutional. I don't claim any knowledge of the laws of Wisconsin or the town charter where this occurred, so I can't comment on that.

[SkinsBry]

@ whoever mentioned the flag flying after dusk unlit: it's in the US code, but as I understand it it's not illegal to fly it at night unlit. that part of the US code concerning flag etiquette isn't enforceable law, it's just guidelines I believe. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

Yeah, I know I was just pointing out the hipocracy. A group of people get upset, so the police overstep their boundries. Other things that are just as disrespectful go overlooked. Police that get involved with flag issues are going against the First Amendment.

[MurrayH81]

Dude should've caught the ass whupping of his life for disrespecting the flag like that. Either that or been deported to Berkely with the rest of the hippies.

An ex-marine who served in Iraq, with a legitimate beef becomes a hippy?

He didn't burn the flag or disrespect it in any way. He used it in an allowed manner to indicate his distress and to signal his opposition to repressive government.

[MurrayH81]

Once again, they claim they tried unsuccessfully to contact him. Then they took the flag without his knowledge just hours before the parade.

TimmySmith, you have now stated this twice. The information on attempting to contact him is not in the article. Where is this information coming from?

[MurrayH81]

I actually went and read several different articles on this story. The knee-jerk response seemed too easy in this one. Plus anyone reading the original story should have gotten the vibe that this guy was a jerk.

Why?

[sacase]

Once again, they claim they tried unsuccessfully to contact him. Then they took the flag without his knowledge just hours before the parade.


So then you agree his flag was stolen by the police.

[SkinInsite]

According to the police, received some emotional calls, then they tried to contact the guy and could not get through to him. They then took the flag down because they were afraid something would happen to his property, which was right next to the parade route. So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest, which they returned after the parade. They police's story seems logical to me, given the fact that the flag pole has already been vandalized.


So if someone have an anti Obama or pro Obama decal on their car I can call the police and threaten to trash the car if they don't take the sticker down?

[skinfan13]

Yeah, I know I was just pointing out the hipocracy. A group of people get upset, so the police overstep their boundries. Other things that are just as disrespectful go overlooked. Police that get involved with flag issues are going against the First Amendment. I agree also. I was drawing a parallel that both actions are not illegal. the difference is that flying the flag unlit after dusk is always disrespectful. there are situations where it is 100% appropriate to fly the US flag upside down.

[PokerPacker]

So my logic is that the police have the right to remove something of yours which they feel to be in your best interest

Well that's what we need, the police deciding what's in your best interest. I've always been a fan of nanny-states.

[KAOSkins]

The fourth is the day we celebrate the creation of our wonderful country where you're allowed to be as big in idiot as you want without fear of recourse. The fact that the guy is a veteran makes it worse because he winds up belittling the symbol and gesture by using it for his own selfish purpose.

His liquor license isn't going to put our country in danger whether it opens or not. And if he's trying to make the point that these bureaucrats are out of control to the point of endangerment, then he should have turned the city flag upside down.

But despite his idiocy, they shouldn't have done anything.

[PokerPacker]

So the police should move on if they see flames coming out of your windows? Or kids playing on your roof? Sometimes they have to be proactive, plus this was not their call, it came from the DA.

fire != upside-down flag. try again.

[MurrayH81]

So the police should move on if they see flames coming out of your windows? Or kids playing on your roof? Sometimes they have to be proactive, plus this was not their call, it came from the DA.

If the police witness the potential or actual destruction of your property, then they are within their legal rights to go on to your property and take actions necessary. There is a big difference between a fire, trespassing kids behaving dangerously, and the removal of property without a legal order. The DA giving an illegal voice order to the police should have been viewed in the same manner as the DA breaking wind, unless the City Charter or state laws support such action.

When it's okay for police to follow illegal orders, and commit illegal actions instead of upholding the laws, it's time to wonder if people remember that we are a Republic, not a Democracy (e.g. My neighbors don't have a legal right to vote/demand that the police break the law because those neighbors are offended by my legal protest).

[skinfan13]

So the police are going to ignore a direct order from their superior and leading jurist. I think you have a wee problem with authority.

FYI the police do not uphold laws, that is for the courts. If my company CO told me to do something contrary to the law, especially constitutional law, I'd tell him to go to hell.

in the military, you have to right to refuse an illegal order. there is no such thing as absolute authority. those who have the biggest problem with authority are those who unquestioningly follow it. :2cents:

[MurrayH81]

The flag flying upside down doesn't give off just a little bit of a vibe to you?
It makes me concerned about the situation, but not the person involved unless there is additional, factual information about the person.


Sure there is a 10% chance he is a red-blooded American patriot.

A Marine Corps veteran doesn't automatically qualify as a red-blooded American patriot, or rate a better percentage likelihood than 10%? A person who put their life on the line can't initiate protests against the government without automatically becoming a non-patriot?


But I figured that there was about a 90% chance of a jerk using the flag as a form of temper tantrum.

That's your right, but I have to point out that you are not offering a lot of fact based evidence to convince others.

[MurrayH81]

So the police are going to ignore a direct order from their superior and leading jurist. I think you have a wee problem with authority.

Yes I do. The Citizens of this country grant authority to the government, not the other way around. "Consent of the governed" ringing a bell?


FYI the police do not uphold laws, that is for the courts.

Yes they do. They also generally adopt a slogan called "Serve and Protect". Those actions seem conspicuously absent in this story.

[Destino]

It seems like they took it to prevent his protest from happening during the 4th of July. They gave it back to him after the fact. I don't believe they investigated distress, taking the flag doesn't fit in with that motive. I think they wanted to silence his chosen mode of protest.

That being the case I think it obvious that what they did is entirely unacceptable. The police do not exist to tell citizens how to protest. They exist entirely to enforce the law. I don't give a damn what they thought about his chosen method of protest... in fact I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of it. Welcome to america, you are free to disagree but you aren't free to enforce your narrow view of how things should be in your own perfect little uber patriotic world.

[zoony]

He put his ass on the line in Iraq for this country and invested $200,000 to pursue the American Dream. A group of people using their government positions are standing in his way.

Calling him a loser cry-baby is out of line, but I expect nothing less from you.



I know lots of idiots who served in the military, just like I know several heros who have. That doesn't excuse poor behavior or predict good. There are much better ways to go about things to get the desired result. Now of course his service in Iraq might have been a great thing (I'm assuming it was) and he is to be thanked for that, but as far as I can see it has absolutely nothing to do with this particular issue.

Except of course as a journalistic tool to rile up feeble minded twits and increase web hits :)

If I were having problems opening a business in TN it wouldn't occur to me to insult everyone from Maine to Cali... it just wouldn't. I know, crazy right? I might actually hire a lawyer or, better yet, get my ducks in a row BEFORE I invested the $200k. :dunce:

And whats with the obsession with me? Let go man, let go. :)


But all that said, the man has a right to fly the flag upside down. And I have the right to call him a dumbass. God bless the USA!

[SkinsBry]

There are much better ways to go about things to get the desired result.


If I were having problems opening a business in TN it wouldn't occur to me to insult everyone from Maine to Cali... it just wouldn't. I know, crazy right? I might actually hire a lawyer or, better yet, get my ducks in a row BEFORE I invested the $200k. :dunce:

And whats with the obsession with me? Let go man, let go. :)

He was trying to get public awareness, I don't know if he was going for local or national, so you can't say that he trying to insult everyone in the country. And clearly he didn't insult everyone because there are people who feel bad for what his local government is doing to him.

Maybe he had his ducks in a row, verbally anyway, and then some people got in the village council's ear and they changed their decision. Something very similar happened here over the past 3-4 years. The guy had all his permits and the place was opened briefly, but a few residents got the township to close him down. Now he's out a ton of money.

Trust me, I have no obsession with you. Along with your title came a bunch of attitude. If I could add you to my ignore list I would, but since I have to read what you write, expect a comment now and then.

[zoony]

He was trying to get public awareness, I don't know if he was going for local or national, so you can't say that he trying to insult everyone in the country. And clearly he didn't insult everyone because there are people who feel bad for what his local government is doing to him.


I took it as a deep insult, personally. Just like when I see people burning the flag. But, I recognize it's their right to do it... and of course, I don't have to like it.



Maybe he had his ducks in a row, verbally anyway, and then some people got in the village council's ear and they changed their decision. Something very similar happened here over the past 3-4 years. The guy had all his permits and the place was opened briefly, but a few residents got the township to close him down. Now he's out a ton of money.

Well that's where a good lawyer might come in handy. And where is it written that there is no risk in business? And restaurants no less?




Trust me, I have no obsession with you. Along with your title came a bunch of attitude. If I could add you to my ignore list I would, but since I have to read what you write, expect a comment now and then.

You seem to be a lot more hung up on it than I am. Trust me, I was even more condescending before my "title" change :)

cheers though :cheers:

[ljs]

anyone else find it weird they keep calling this place a village and not a town?? Just funny to me.

[MurrayH81]

Well that's where a good lawyer might come in handy. And where is it written that there is no risk in business? And restaurants no less?

It's possible that he has exhausted that effort. It's also possible that simply by avoiding giving him a license ruling, they are avoiding any legal action he might bring. I live in a town of about 1300, and the city council operates in that fashion quite a bit.

That said, I certainly don't know what has occurred in this situation from A-Z, so rather than believe that he did the flag upside down thing as his first protest, I am awaiting further facts.

Let me be clear. I don't like what he did/is doing, but rather than make assumptions about this veteran, I am giving him (at least) momentary pause for facts before making judgment about what he did. It is certainly possible that he is a complete idiot. It's also possible that he is all that you or I might personally hold as good and true of American citizens and this is his last attempt to bring justice to the situation.

[GoSkins561]

I saw some 19 year old punk walking through the mall with an upside down American flag sewn onto his jacket, I felt like walking up to him and telling him to get out. This situation seems different that he was using it as a form of protest, not because he supposedly hates the country.

[zoony]

I saw some 19 year old punk walking through the mall with an upside down American flag sewn onto his jacket, I felt like walking up to him and telling him to get out. This situation seems different that he was using it as a form of protest, not because he supposedly hates the country.


Well if he was smart he would protest against local authorities.

If he was an attention whore or dumbass (or both), he'd fly the American flag upside down.

.....