LATIMES: Wanted: Obama healthcare reform volunteers willing to be paid $15 an hour

[SnyderShrugged]

How dare they astroturf the health care debate!;)



http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/obama-healthcare-reform.html


«

Wanted: Obama healthcare reform volunteers willing to be paid $15 an hour
August 13, 2009 | 5:18 am


It seems that, despite all the media attention lavished on e-mail appeals to his political supporters, not everyone pushing for President Obama's embattled healthcare reforms these warm August days is an idealistic volunteer in it for the sake of helping move the country forward and gaining medical attention for millions of uncovered Americans.

The website's large-type headline announces: "Work to Pass Obama's Healthcare Plan and Get Paid to Do it! $10-15 hr!"


It's a web ad on Craigslist: "You can work for change. Join motivated staff around the country working to make change happen. You can make great friends and money along the way. Earn $400-$600 a week."

So both sides appear to have paid lobbyists in this colossal summertime struggle for public opinion and control of the multi-billions flowing into the nation's burdened healthcare system.

The ad links to the Boston-based Fund for the Public Interest, an umbrella organization that rounds up people to round up support, money, signatures, for all kinds of campaigns, from healthcare reform to the environment.

It's currently hiring and assigning canvassers to work in at least 28 states, including California, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Oregon, Massachusetts, Minnesota and New Jersey.


"Now is our chance to make health care work," says the ad to recruit recruiters of support for the president's proposals. "America’s health care system is broken. Health care costs are spiraling out of control, throwing families, businesses and government into financial crisis.


"Families are worried their health coverage won’t be there when they need it. Our country can’t afford to wait for health reform that keeps costs down and protects consumers..."

It sounds much like the president at one of his healthcare town halls; (next stops, Montana and Colorado). "We’re fighting for health care that will protect families’ financial health, lay out a clear path for all Americans to afford health care, and improve patient safety and quality care.

"Help make change happen," pleads the advertisement. "If you're good with people and feel passionately about the environment and human rights, you'll make money working for the Fund."

Sounds like an ideal kind of idealism, the profitable kind.


-- Andrew Malcolm

[Thiebear]

thats one way to create jobs... :)

[twa]

thats one way to create jobs... :)

Gonna need a lot of help selling that BS;)

I wonder if they paid her astroturffing ass?

Roxana Mayer: I’m Not a Doctor But I Play One at Town Hall Meetings
http://patterico.com/2009/08/12/roxana-mayer-im-not-a-doctor-but-i-play-one-at-town-hall-meetings/

E x4: Further confirmation (as if it were needed!) from the Lone Star Times:
http://lonestartimes.com/2009/08/13/obama-camp-plants-fake-doc-che-fan-at-jackson-lee-forum/

Our own David Jennings secured a phone interview, in which Mayer admitted to impersonating a physician, saying — get this — she thought it would help her credibility. (It didn’t.)

Weird; her hero Barack Obama also thinks that lying enhances his credibility . . .

You really should read their entire post. The idea that this was all Mayer’s idea seems rather outlandish once you’ve taken it all in.

[Burgold]

Don't have a problem with people paying for a service. I do have a problem with paying people a salary and then calling them volunteers... with the exception of our volunteer army, I suppose.

[SnyderShrugged]

Don't have a problem with people paying for a service. I do have a problem with paying people a salary and then calling them volunteers... with the exception of our volunteer army, I suppose.

I dont even have a problem with paid "volunteers" to be honest.

The issue I have is the outright hypocracy of those who claim "astro turf" in regards to the porposal opposition, yet have no similar "outrage" over the support side organizing actual grassroots people for the town halls.

[Burgold]

To be honest, I have a major problem with the "language" of this debate. It's why I framed the Palin thread as I did. People are trying to start riots and get groups to hate each other, rather than doing what's best, having a reasoned debate, or working together towards a successful compromise.

There's an incredible ugliness out there. There was and is no reason for a discussion of health care to be elevated to the level of Nazism. Hell, it's the opposite of Nazism. It's trying to make sure that all people receive care regardless of wealth, race, religion, or ethnicity. You can see the rhetoric begining to perculate in real violence slowly too. There are people so ready to hate and all they need is permission.

[GoSkins561]

Just think, many of the people against health care reform are taking off from work and possibly losing money to express thier opinion if they don't have paid leave.

I pulled up to a traffic light in Hagerstown yesterday where there were protestors. There was one pro reform guy, he was holding a Obama sign and chanting Obama. I felt sorry for the guy because he looked like an idiot. Why is he cheering for a President that has already been elected while counter protesting a bill that hasn't even been passed by the Senate. wth

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I pulled up to a traffic light in Hagerstown yesterday where there were protestors. There was one pro reform guy, he was holding a Obama sign and chanting Obama. I felt sorry for the guy because he looked like an idiot. Why is he cheering for a President that has already been elected while counter protesting a bill that hasn't even been passed by the Senate. wth

He's addicted to the kool-aid I guess :silly:

[JMS]

misleading claims made about healthcare reform.


They will kill the old and disadvantaged.
They want to send social workers into everybodies house to see how you raise your kids
They will force you into a public plan
Consumers will have fewer choices
They have death pannels to determine if you are worthy of getting healthcare
Obama is creating an enemies list
Healthcare reform will harm Medicaid and Medicare
The AARP isn't in favor of healthcare reform
Healthcare reform will add a trillion dollars to the defiict
Obama's Healthcare reform was a NAZI policy from prewar Germany
Healthcare reform is socialism and will harm the "free marketplace".
Obama is going to pay folks 15$ /hr to attend town hall meetings and astroturf the healthcare critics.

[SnyderShrugged]

misleading claims made about healthcare reform.


They will kill the old and disadvantaged.
They want to send social workers into everybodies house to see how you raise your kids
They will force you into a public plan
Consumers will have fewer choices
They have death pannels to determine if you are worthy of getting healthcare
Obama is creating an enemies list
Healthcare reform will harm Medicaid and Medicare
The AARP isn't in favor of healthcare reform
Healthcare reform will add a trillion dollars to the defiict
Obama's Healthcare reform was a NAZI policy from prewar Germany
Healthcare reform is socialism and will harm the "free marketplace".
Obama is going to pay folks 15$ /hr to attend town hall meetings and astroturf the healthcare critics.



Ummm, doesnt the last point kind of prove that its not misleading based on the OP?

[GoSkins561]

You got a link JMS?

[JMS]

Ummm, doesnt the last point kind of prove that its not misleading based on the OP?

It's totally misleading. There are many ways to "Work to Pass Obama's Healthcare Plan" which do not include astroturfing the town hall meetings.

Obama has created a contact center to field questions about healthcare reform. Anybody with an email can send a question in and have it answered. Somebody has to write those responses.

The insurance companies spent 100 million dollars defeating Hillary care in the 1990's. Figure they're spending at least that much this time around too. I don't knock Obama or Reform advocates for staffing up to handle some of the FUD responses or to communicate their message.

Big difference between informing people about whats in the bill and misinforming them. Big difference between educating folks about healthcare reform, and posting lists of times and dates for town hall meetings, publishing strategies on how to rattle the congressmen, and disrupt the meetings.

[SnyderShrugged]

It's totally misleading. There are many ways to "Work to Pass Obama's Healthcare Plan" which do not include astroturfing the town hall meetings.

Obama has created a contact center to field questions about healthcare reform. Anybody with an email can send a question in and have it answered. Somebody has to write those responses.

The insurance companies spent 100 million dollars defeating hillary care in the 1990's. Figure they're spending at least that much this time around too. I don't knock obama or Reform advocates for staffing up to handle some of the FUD responses.


:doh:sigh..

Still throwing out random accusations of insurance company funding without a shred of evidence to support your position.

We spent too much time on that earlier this week so I prefer to not engage in that endless quagmire with you again.

I love the hypocracy you just showed though!

[Burgold]

I'm on the health care's side, JMS. But I think you're playing semantics a little bit. I think the intent is to stop the flow of disinformation and that is a good thing, however, the effect is grassroots lobbying.

[JMS]

:doh:sigh..

Still throwing out random accusations of insurance company funding without a shred of evidence to support your position.

We spent too much time on that earlier this week so I prefer to not engage in that endless quagmire with you again.

I love the hypocracy you just showed though!

Yeah, you ignored all the evidence and even claimed it supports your position...


Ignored statements from a former healthcare executive who said Health insures are behind the organizers of the wingnuts.
Ignored the WSJ, Washington Post, CBS news, and Politico.com which supported or flat out repeated that accusation.
Even ignored the link on the wingnut site which listed the town hall meettings and listed strategies of how to rattle the congressmen


Again you admit the HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY is organizing, coaching, and directing the town hall disruptions. You object only to the claim the Health Insurance companies are part of the Healthcare Industry doing such.

But my favorite is when you said all that evidence, actually supported your position.

[SnyderShrugged]

Yeah, you ignored all the evidence and even claimed it supports your position...


Ignored statements for former healthcare executive who said Health insures are behind the organizers of the wingnuts.
Ignored the WSJ, Washington Post, CBS news, and Politico.com which supported or flat out repeated that accusation.
Even ignored the link on the wingnut site which listed the town hall meettings and listed strategies of how to rattle the congressmen

But my favorite is when you said all that evidence, actually supported your position.


again, I refuse to engae you in this useless debate. Though I will leave you with the FACT that none of those is an insurance company. It doesnt matter what invisible lines you draw to connect them.

Go have fun in your fantasy land of supreme astroturf hypocracy. I'm not playing today.

[GoSkins561]

Is there a link to back up those facts?

[JMS]

I'm on the health care's side, JMS. But I think you're playing semantics a little bit. I think the intent is to stop the flow of disinformation and that is a good thing, however, the effect is grassroots lobbying.

I don't have a problem with either side educating folks about the issues. Prefferable with actual truths about the issues, rather than FUD....

But I think their is a big difference between educational efforts on either side and directing folks to go to town hall meetings to disrupt those meetings based on FUD.

Again the Astroturf being orchestrated are assembling national lists of town hall meetings, handing them out to the wing nuts along with scripted techniques to disrupt and control the meetings. That's a big difference from going door to door and informing folks about the issues.

[JMS]

again, I refuse to engae you in this useless debate. Though I will leave you with the FACT that none of those is an insurance company. It doesnt matter what invisible lines you draw to connect them.


Exactly healthcare company, you admit.. Insurance company who's industry is actually the one being reformed, you refuse to admit, regardless of the evidence, regardless of the facts, regardless of the eye witness first hand testimony of a whistleblower because it's your figleaf for still having an argument in the discussion....

The INSURANCE COMPANY EXECUTIVE was the whistleblower who stated flat out the INSURANCE COMPANY WAS BEHIND AND FUNDING THE ENTIRE Town hall disruption effort.


Whistle-blower: Health care industry engaging in PR tactics

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/12/health.industry.whistleblower/index.html





MADDOW: The leader of America‘s Health Insurance Plans, the industry association, says that the health insurance industry is being unfairly blamed as the president and Congress try to reform the health care system.
Do you think it is unfair to single them out for blame?

POTTER: I think that she‘s doing what she‘s paid to do. I think that the health insurance industry deserves a great deal of the blame because they‘re very much behind the town hall disruptions that you see and a lot of the deception that‘s going on in terms of disinformation that many Americans apparently are believing.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-show-wendell-potter-health-c (http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-show-wendell-potter-health-c)

[SnyderShrugged]

Exactly healthcare company, you admit.. Insurance company who's industry is actually the one being reform, you refuse to admit because it's your figleaf for still having an argument....

The INSURANCE COMPANY EXECUTIVE was the whistleblower who stated flat out the INSURANCE COMPANY WAS BEHIND AND FUNDING THE ENTIRE EFFORT.


its the only argument i ever made.

again, talk with someone else, I'm pretty much done with you on the topic.

[JMS]

its the only argument i ever made.

again, talk with someone else, I'm pretty much done with you on the topic.


The Whistle blower is the Former Vice President of Communications at CIGNA who was directly involved in the disinformation tactics for more than a decade from before the Hillary healthcare debate, through 2006.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/12/health.industry.whistleblower/index.html



Wendell Potter knows a little something about the health care industry's practices and is not afraid of to speak out as the health care reform debate heats up around the country.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/POLITICS/08/12/health.industry.whistleblower/art.potter.2.cnn.jpg Wendell Potter once was a vice president in the public relations department for insurance giant Cigna.


http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif


The former vice president of corporate communications at insurance giant Cigna, who left his post, says the industry is playing "dirty tricks" in an effort to manipulate public opinion

[SnyderShrugged]

The Whistle blower is the Former Vice President of Communications at CIGNA who was directly involved in the disinformation tactics for more than a decade from before the Hillary healthcare debate, through 2006.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/12/health.industry.whistleblower/index.html


good to know about the past.

How about the present?:)

[JMS]

good to know about the past.

How about the present?:)

Again the selective reading problem you have is hindering the discussion. Didn't you catch the above article where the Insurance insider specifically stated the insurance companies were behind the town hall disruptions?

Yeah he left the healthcare industry where he orchestrated disinformation TWO YEARS AGO. He doesn't know where the bodies are burried, outdated information and all?



http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/profile.html

Last month, testimony in front of the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation by a former health insurance insider named Wendell Potter made news even before it occurred: CBS NEWS headlined: "Cigna Whistleblower to Testify (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/23/cbsnews_investigates/main5108025.shtml)." After Potter's testimony the industry scrambled to do damage control: "Insurers defend rescissions, take heat for lack of transparency (http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/07/06/bisb0706.htm)."

In his first extended television interview since leaving the health insurance industry, Wendell Potter tells Bill Moyers why he left his successful career as the head of Public Relations for CIGNA, one of the nation's largest insurers, and decided to speak out against the industry. "I didn't intend to [speak out], until it became really clear to me that the industry is resorting to the same tactics they've used over the years, and particularly back in the early '90s, when they were leading the effort to kill the Clinton plan."
Potter began his trip from health care spokesperson to reform advocate while back home in Tennessee. Potter attended a "health care expedition," (http://www.ramusa.org/projects/ruralamerica.htm) a makeshift health clinic set up at a fairgrounds, and he tells Bill Moyers, "It was absolutely stunning. When I walked through the fairground gates, I saw hundreds of people lined up, in the rain. It was raining that day. Lined up, waiting to get care, in animal stalls. Animal stalls." Looking back over his long career, Potter sees an industry corrupted by Wall Street expectations and greed. According to Potter, insurers have every incentive to deny coverage — every dollar they don't pay out to a claim is a dollar they can add to their profits, and Wall Street investors demand they pay out less every year. Under these conditions, Potter says, "You don't think about individual people. You think about the numbers, and whether or not you're going to meet Wall Street's expectations."

[SnyderShrugged]

Yeah he left the healthcare industry where he orchestrated disinformation TWO YEARS AGO. He doesn't know where the bodies are burried, outdated information and all.


Still dont see where Mr. Potter is providing anything that relates to health insurers astro-turfing in the current town halls, he is a disgruntled, former Cigna employee that has "blown the whistle" on Cigna's questionable practices.

You realize he is a paid astroturfer by those that support the proposed reform, right?


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2009/07/02/cnn-bashes-conservative-ads-industry-insider-omits-his-far-left-affil

"since May, Potter has worked as a senior fellow on health care for the Center for Media and Democracy, the brainchild of John Stauber, the co-author of “Banana Republicans: How the Right Wing is Turning America Into a One-Party State,” and a unpaid advisor to the anti-war group Iraq Veterans Against the War . "

[Art Monk Fan]

Student activist groups, unions, etc. from the left have been organizing and instructing individuals on how to shout down speakers on campuses and in town hall meetings for decades, so why all the "outrage" now? I'm reminded of the 80s anti-drug commercial: "I learned it form watching you!"

[JMS]

Still dont see where Mr. Potter is providing anything that relates to health insurers astro-turfing in the current town halls, he is a disgruntled, former Cigna employee that has "blown the whistle" on Cigna's questionable practices.


I can't understand why you can't see where Mr. Potter is flat out stating the Insurance companies are behind the town hall disruptions, but you don't seem to have any problem in reading that he's disgruntled, which isn't written in the pieces...



health insurance industry deserves a great deal of the blame because they‘re very much behind the town hall disruptions






You realize he is a paid astroturfer by those that support the proposed reform, right?


Why am I not supprised.

Not everybody who has a position is an astroturfer. This guy was the senior VP in charge of Communications and PR for one of hte largest insurance companies in the country. He has first hand knowledge of what's going on.

[SnyderShrugged]

[QUOTE=JMS;6628085]I
Not everybody who has a position is an astroturfer. QUOTE]


You should follow your own logic.

[Baculus]

Yeah, because no one has ever been paid for a volunteer position. Like, I never got paid twenty years ago while gathering signatures for a clean-air effort in Oregon, right? Oh, I am sure it is also impossible for random people to create adds on Craigslist, either.

[SnyderShrugged]

Yeah, because no one has ever been paid for a volunteer position. Like, I never got paid twenty years ago while gathering signatures for a clean-air effort in Oregon, right? Oh, I am sure it is also impossible for random people to create adds on Craigslist, either.


Yeah, it would be easy for someone to do that on craigslist.

kind of like it would be easy for a person with an agenda, who gets paid to support that agenda, to make claims that health insurers are behind town hall antics.

[Baculus]

Student activist groups, unions, etc. from the left have been organizing and instructing individuals on how to shout down speakers on campuses and in town hall meetings for decades, so why all the "outrage" now? I'm reminded of the 80s anti-drug commercial: "I learned it form watching you!"

And those people are usually condemned and they are a lot more random. Also, these organizations are not "instructed" how to "shout down speakers on campuses." When I was younger, I was a part of such an organization and nothing of the sort was "instructed." We worked on organization, pamphleteering, drive initiatives and such, but the goal was not to "shout down" others, and, by and large, most organizations operate in the same manner. The goal was to educate and to purvey our point-of-view.

You are trying to find justification for actions that you would normally condemn, until you support the cause. Meanwhile, people on here (including me) condemned Code Pink whenever they behaved in the same way.

[Baculus]

Yeah, it would be easy for someone to do that on craigslist.

kind of like it would be easy for a person with an agenda, who gets paid to support that agenda, to make claims that health insurers are behind town hall antics.

Sure, but we have already seen evidence of town hall organizing by organizations, such as FreedomWorks, who are agitating for lobbyists who DO represent insurance organizations. Or, people such as Rick Scott, who used to own an organization (which defrauded the government) who is trying to pass himself off as a "reformer."

I don't think insurers are behind all the town hall efforts, but it would be naive to think the are not trying to stir the pot. And most of the main right-wing anti-reform groups are generally support by big corporations.

[GoSkins561]

Not saying the idiot chanting Obama was a part of any group but his intentions were to certainly shout down his opposition.

[SnyderShrugged]

Sure, but we have already seen evidence of town hall organizing by organizations, such as FreedomWorks, who are agitating for lobbyists who DO represent insurance organizations. Or, people such as Rick Scott, who used to own an organization (which defrauded the government) who is trying to pass himself off as a "reformer."

I don't think insurers are behind all the town hall efforts, but it would be naive to think the are not trying to stir the pot. And most of the main right-wing anti-reform groups are generally support by big corporations.

There is no evidence that the insurance lobby is incolved. period.

private organizations from both sides of the debate are organizing to get their points heard.

The difference appears to be that some of those in support of the proposed reforms are paid to do so. There is no evidence of that for the opposition, just loose conjecture and dotted line relationships.

[JMS]

There is no evidence that the insurance lobby is incolved. period.

:doh:



private organizations from both sides of the debate are organizing to get their points heard.


:silly:



The difference appears to be that some of those in support of the proposed reforms are paid to do so. There is no evidence of that for the opposition, just loose conjecture and dotted line relationships.
:laugh:

[Kilmer17]

It's obvious that the proreformers are nothing but FieldTurf.

[JMS]

It's obvious that the proreformers are nothing but FieldTurf.

FieldTurf doesn't really work for your argument. FieldTurf could reffer to natural grass which kind of breaks the metephore...

Gotah be specific to artifical grass to really keep the metephore going playing on grass roots and manufactured grass roots.

AstroTurf. Artificial Turf, Artificial Grass. Non Natural grass substitute, or Test Tube green dirt cover would all work, but Field Turf doesn't really work.

[Kilmer17]

FieldTurf doesn't really work for your argument. FieldTurf could reffer to natural grass which kind of breaks the metephore...

Gotah be specific to artifical grass to really keep the metephore going playing on grass roots and manufactured grass roots.

AstroTurf. Artificial Turf, Artificial Grass. Non Natural grass substitute, or Test Tube green dirt cover would all work, but Field Turf doesn't really work.



LOL. Welldone.

[JMS]

LOL. Welldone.

Whoops.... Looks like you were right after all..

http://www.fieldturf.com/product/overview.cfm


Fieldturf is artifical grass product.... My Bad. Serves me right for being such a smart alex... :)

[SnyderShrugged]

Whoops.... Looks like you were right after all..

http://www.fieldturf.com/product/overview.cfm


Fieldturf is artifical grass product.... My Bad.


ahh, it was still funny!:)

[GoSkins561]

The left is paranoid, the reality is, these people that are protesting are average Joes. There might be a few wing nuts that push things to far, but the majority have legitimate concern.

It's hard to compare these protests to protests of the past because people are actually taking off work to be there vs. i.e. dirty hippie anti war protestors not having a job in the first place. Hopefully people see through all of the media b.s. and realize these concerns are concerns of real tax paying hard working Americans.

It actually makes sense why people would be more than happy to protest for 15 bucks an hour, sounds like fun and you even get paid.

[Burgold]

Regular folk? I sure hope to God not.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=294480

[Predicto]

The left is paranoid, the reality is, these people that are protesting are average Joes. There might be a few wing nuts that push things to far, but the majority have legitimate concern.


IMO many of them are genuinely scared, but a lot of their fears are not legitimate. Someone is doing a very effective job of scaring them, playing off their ignorance.



It's hard to compare these protests to protests of the past because people are actually taking off work to be there vs. i.e. dirty hippie anti war protestors not having a job in the first place. Hopefully people see through all of the media b.s. and realize these concerns are concerns of real tax paying hard working Americans.



Actually, most of them look like retirees to me. They don't have to work either.



It actually makes sense why people would be more than happy to protest for 15 bucks an hour, sounds like fun and you even get paid.

What makes you think they are being hired to go to protests? That is just the spin that some blogger has put on this thing.

[Baculus]

There is no evidence that the insurance lobby is incolved. period.

Here is an article that discusses FreedomWorks, one of the "astroturf" groups.

"FreedomWorks Chairman Dick Armey Serves As A Lobbyist With DLA Piper." Who are DLA clients? Businesses such as the "American Insurance Association." This is a direct tie beween corporations, a lobbyist, and a man running one of the main reform opposition groups.

http://mediamatters-network.org/factcheck/200908060005


private organizations from both sides of the debate are organizing to get their points heard.

Sure, that is true and fine, but to deny the involvement of the insurance industry in a debate that would affect their profitability is, frankly, naive.


The difference appears to be that some of those in support of the proposed reforms are paid to do so. There is no evidence of that for the opposition, just loose conjecture and dotted line relationships.

Oh, you know this because of Craig's list ads? (BTW, every single issue has paid staffing at one point another for those who are against or for it.)

Also, you don't think the organizations, such as Rick Scott and his Conservatives for Patient's Rights, aren't paid nor receiving anonymous sources of funding for their efforts? That the industries who created these astroturf organizations aren't paying lobbyists?

it's as if you know nothing about the organizations who are supporting your own position. Read about Americans for Prosperity, or Conservatives for Patients Rights, or FreedomWorks, or the efforts of Koch Industries, one of the largest American businesses, with organizations such as funding these groups. Or, even worse, corporate funded "United Now," a front for Americans for Prosperity, organizing an actual bus tour to visit and protest at a number of town hall events around the nation.

[GoSkins561]

Regular folk? I sure hope to God not.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=294480

I didn't see anything in the story that would suggest this ignorance is related to health care reform, if it does, these are the people I mentioned as wing nuts.

[Baculus]

The left is paranoid, the reality is, these people that are protesting are average Joes. There might be a few wing nuts that push things to far, but the majority have legitimate concern.

And the corporations funding the anti-reform groups are not "average Joes."


It's hard to compare these protests to protests of the past because people are actually taking off work to be there vs. i.e. dirty hippie anti war protestors not having a job in the first place. Hopefully people see through all of the media b.s. and realize these concerns are concerns of real tax paying hard working Americans.

You have just demonstrated that you know next-to-nothing about the anti-war movement. Where did you get your opinion of the left, from 1969?

If they really had concerns, then they would actually express these concerns instead of screaming and yellng. Plus, many of these concerns are based up right-wing propaganda, such as "death panels," "euthanasia," and buzz words such as "socialism" and "taxes."

You just don't know it because you have fallen for all of this.


It actually makes sense why people would be more than happy to protest for 15 bucks an hour, sounds like fun and you even get paid.

No one is going to get paid for that much money -- usually political action committees pay very little. I know because I have worked for them in the past.

I wouldn't be surprised of this adds were, in fact, fake.

[Baculus]

I didn't see anything in the story that would suggest this ignorance is related to health care reform, if it does, these are the people I mentioned as wing nuts.

That is the exact point -- people on the Right are portraying this debate as a fight against nazism and communism. Why do you think people on your side of the aisle are so upset at the town hall meetings? They literally think the U.S.S.A. is right around the corner.

[twa]

And the corporations funding the anti-reform groups are not "average Joes."




What about the Corps that ARE funding reform?

Do you question the drug companies motives?

[SnyderShrugged]

Here is an article that discusses FreedomWorks, one of the "astroturf" groups.

"FreedomWorks Chairman Dick Armey Serves As A Lobbyist With DLA Piper." Who are DLA clients? Businesses such as the "American Insurance Association." This is a direct tie beween corporations, a lobbyist, and a man running one of the main reform opposition groups.

http://mediamatters-network.org/factcheck/200908060005



Sure, that is true and fine, but to deny the involvement of the insurance industry in a debate that would affect their profitability is, frankly, naive.



Oh, you know this because of Craig's list ads? (BTW, every single issue has paid staffing at one point another for those who are against or for it.)

Also, you don't think the organizations, such as Rick Scott and his Conservatives for Patient's Rights, aren't paid nor receiving anonymous sources of funding for their efforts? That the industries who created these astroturf organizations aren't paying lobbyists?

it's as if you know nothing about the organizations who are supporting your own position. Read about Americans for Prosperity, or Conservatives for Patients Rights, or FreedomWorks, or the efforts of Koch Industries, one of the largest American businesses, with organizations such as funding these groups. Or, even worse, corporate funded "United Now," a front for Americans for Prosperity, organizing an actual bus tour to visit and protest at a number of town hall events around the nation.

The American Insurance Association does not include health insurers in their group. They are specific for property and causalty insurance.

They have literally nothing to do with the healthcare debate

The American Insurance Association (AIA) is the leading property-casualty insurance trade organization, representing 350 insurers that write more than $123 billion in premiums each year. AIA member companies offer all types of property - casualty insurance, including personal and commercial auto insurance, commercial property and liability coverage for small businesses, workers' compensation, homeowners' insurance, medical malpractice coverage, and product liability insurance.
http://www.aiadc.org/aiapub/

Thank you, please try again.:)

[GoSkins561]

Your right, screaming and yelling accomplishes nothing, interupting commerce by clogging the streets with drum circles and people blowing is the real way to get attention.

[SnyderShrugged]

hmmm, Bac, are you sure you want to paint folks tied with DLA Piper as part of the "anti-reform" crowd?

http://www.dlapiper.com/dick_gephardt/
Dick Gephardt
Strategic Advisor

dick.gephardt@dlapiper.com

500 Eighth Street, NW
Washington, DC 20004
United States

T: +1 202 799 4317
F: +1 202 799 5317



Dick Gephardt, a strategic advisor in the firm’s Government Affairs practice group, retired in January 2005 after serving Missouri’s Third Congressional District for 28 years. In his first year in Congress, he was appointed to the House Ways and Means and Budget Committees, where he became a national leader on health care, trade, and tax fairness. He was the leader of the House Democrats for nearly 14 years, serving as House majority leader from 1989 to 1994 and minority leader from 1995 to 2003. In that role, he emerged as one of the Democratic Party's chief strategists and spokespersons on many major issues.


Mr. Gephardt became the first Democratic candidate to enter the 1988 presidential race, helping to frame the economic issues that dominated that election. Because of his outspoken stand on behalf of American families, he was elected House majority leader. In 2003, Mr. Gephardt again pursued the Democratic presidential nomination. He campaigned to work for universal healthcare, pension reform, more teachers in the classroom, energy independence, and a trade policy.


He also serves as the advisory board chairman of the Richard A. Gephardt Institute for Public Service at Washington University in St. Louis.

[GoSkins561]

That is the exact point -- people on the Right are portraying this debate as a fight against nazism and communism. Why do you think people on your side of the aisle are so upset at the town hall meetings? They literally think the U.S.S.A. is right around the corner.

Because they believe in hard work and providing for yourself instead of being taxed to provide for others. Why wouldn't they be upset?

Do you trust a bunch of attorneys with your health?

We are well on our way to becoming a socialized nation. The government controlling more of our GDP than other Socialized countries makes us a what?

[Burgold]

Because they believe in hard work and providing for yourself instead of being taxed to provide for others.

Do you trust a bunch of attorneys with your health?

You know, attourneys work very hard actually. The one's I know consider a 70 hour work week light. I think your definition of partyism or classism is a wee bit... I really don't think conservatives own a monopoly or even a majority sharehold in hard work and sweat.

That's just more right wing propaganda.

[SnyderShrugged]

What about the Corps that ARE funding reform?

Do you question the drug companies motives?


Well he must! because Dick Army who has ties with freedomworks, who has ties to DLA Piper, which represents Bristol Myers Squibb (who I believe is now on board with the current proposals), is involved.

[Baculus]

Because they believe in hard work and providing for yourself instead of being taxed to provide for others. Why wouldn't they be upset?

And who do you think pays for the roads that they use? Or all of the public facilities in their area? And all those Texans protesting about this, for example, are protesting from a state that's one of the most heavily federally funded states in the Union. Heck, I have paid for the social security or Medicare that some of these protesters are using.

Is it time for me to protest them?

They act like they are the only people in this nation who pay for stuff they don't use nor for projects that they don't agree with. Well, guess what: They ain't special. A LOT US WORK, and many of us didn't want to support billion dollar efforts, such as the war in Iraq.

A LOT OF US have reason to be angry, so big whoopty-doo -- welcome to the world that some of us have felt for the last two presidential terms.

They aren't the only ones angry nor frustrated, just imagine if we act behaved in this manner every time we were angry.


Do you trust a bunch of attorneys with your health?

Apparently you do, since you oppose reform. Maybe you need to ask yourself that question.


We are well on our way to becoming a socialized nation. The government controlling more of our GDP than other Socialized countries makes us a what?

Oh no, not the "socialized" bogeyman! BTW, this is a point I made around five years ago when I was a pure capitalist, so thanks for showing up late for the party. :-)

As a note, what you are describing is state socialism or a "mixed economy." All socialism is not the same, a point that folks never seen to understand as you respond to everything with a reflexive knee-jerk.

Anyway, I would dispute your claim that "
[quote]We are well on our way to becoming a socialized nation. The government controlling more of our GDP than other Socialized countries."

[Baculus]

Well he must! because Dick Army who has ties with freedomworks, who has ties to DLA Piper, which represents Bristol Myers Squibb (who I believe is now on board with the current proposals), is involved.

Now you are understanding!

[Baculus]

Your right, screaming and yelling accomplishes nothing, interupting commerce by clogging the streets with drum circles and people blowing is the real way to get attention.

That is public protesting -- that is different then marching into a room and doing that.

[Baculus]

What about the Corps that ARE funding reform?

Do you question the drug companies motives?

Of course I do -- I definitely suspect the motives of groups such as UnitedHealth in this effort.

[SnyderShrugged]

Now you are understanding!


LOL, I understand that the logic totally fails because the Pharma industry is supporting the proposed reforms.

So the connection with DLA Piper to freedomworks is really nonsensical becaause DLA Piper also represent folks from the other side of the debate.

[SnyderShrugged]

Of course I do -- I definitely suspect the motives of groups such as UnitedHealth in this effort.

United Health isnt a Pharma company.

[Baculus]

The American Insurance Association does not include health insurers in their group. They are specific for property and causalty insurance.

They have literally nothing to do with the healthcare debate



Think outside of the box.

They are related to the health industry, because they provide for Workers’ Compensation.

For example, "twelve major property-casualty insurers have joined a suit spearheaded by the American Insurance Association to overturn provisions of the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration's controversial ergonomics standard, released last week. The suit was filed Nov. 14 in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit in Richmond, Va., the Washington-based AIA announced."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5249/is_200011/ai_n20042683/

Or, an example of their legislative efforts:

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=view&id=999

Every single concerned interest in this debate isn't a specific health insurer, and that's the missing point.

[twa]

And who do you think pays for the roads that they use? Or all of the public facilities in their area? And all those Texans protesting about this, for example, are protesting from a state that's one of the most heavily federally funded states in the Union. Heck, I have paid for the social security or Medicare that some of these protesters are using.


Ha... you mean we get back PART of what we pay as a result of lax immigration policies and are one of the top major manufacturing,shipping,energy producing areas in the country.

[Baculus]

United Health isnt a Pharma company.

No, but UnitedHealth has been involved in drug prescription underwriting. They are a bridge between the pharmas, the providers, and the AARP. This isn't about just specific industries, but the companies who often act as facilitators.

[SnyderShrugged]

Think outside of the box.

They are related to the health industry, because they provide for Workers’ Compensation.

For example, "twelve major property-casualty insurers have joined a suit spearheaded by the American Insurance Association to overturn provisions of the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration's controversial ergonomics standard, released last week. The suit was filed Nov. 14 in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit in Richmond, Va., the Washington-based AIA announced."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5249/is_200011/ai_n20042683/

Or, an example of their legislative efforts:

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=view&id=999

Every single concerned interest in this debate isn't a specific health insurer, and that's the missing point.


man you should do yoga! I havent seen anyone stretch so much in a long time!

workmans comp isnt part of the health insurance industry. I dont know why you would try to frame it that way? AIA is an organization who is involved primarilly in property and casualty insurance (workmans comp falls in that umbrella), not health insurance.

Give me a call when a major health insurance company (BCBS, Humana, Cigna, United Health care, etc) appears on their list.

Face it, you keep trying to desperately frame up a case that health insurers are involved in the town hall stuff, and you fail each time.

[Baculus]

Ha... you mean we get back PART of what we pay as a result of lax immigration policies and are one of the top major manufacturing,shipping,energy producing areas in the country.

Texas receives back around $1.80 for every dollar sent to the Feds: You live in a heavily subsidized state. A lot of states are dealing with immigration - it just isn't a Texan problem.

Just because Texas has "manufacturing,shipping,energy producing" doesn't mean you should be entitled more than another state, otherwise it undermines your arguments for a reduction in the federal system.

[SnyderShrugged]

No, but UnitedHealth has been involved in drug prescription underwriting. They are a bridge between the pharmas, the providers, and the AARP. This isn't about just specific industries, but the companies who often act as facilitators.


again, call me when a health insurer comes into the equasion.

[Baculus]

man you should do yoga! I havent seen anyone stretch so much in a long time!

workmans comp isnt part of the health insurance industry. I dont know why you would try to frame it that way? AIA is an organization who is involved primarilly in property and casualty insurance (workmans comp falls in that umbrella), not health insurance.

Give me a call when a major health insurance company (BCBS, Humana, Cigna, United Health care, etc) appears on their list.

Face it, you keep trying to desperately frame up a case that health insurers are involved in the town hall stuff, and you fail each time.

What's failure is your contortions to defend the corporations against any sort criticisms. Worse yet, the example I provided was a CLEAR example of "astroturfing," which you totally ignored. You ignore someone such as Rick Scott, who HAS worked for the health industry, being involved in this effort. And, as I said before, this isn't JUST ABOUT THE HEALTH INSURERS, either, as evidenced by other corporate interests in the fray.

There isn't a single piece of information I will provide to you in which you won't stretch yourself into a pretzel to deny or obfuscate.

[Baculus]

again, call me when a health insurer comes into the equasion.

WHY does it just HAVE to be just a health insurer? This is a stupendously silly response. It's as if you have zero clue that multiple industries are part of this debate.

[Burgold]

WHY does it just HAVE to be just a health insurer? This is a stupendously silly response. It's as if you have zero clue that multiple industries are part of this debate.

What gets me is that the insurers would have to be insane not to be lobbying on this issue. This is the livlihood, business, and their way of life. Are these multi-billion dollar companies simply going to stand to the side and say,

"Gosh government, you do whatever you think is best and we'll just fall right in line, yessiree"

Of course, they are advocating, lobbying and using every indirect and direct method they know of to make sure this ends to their advantage or at towards as positive a position as possible. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

[Baculus]

What gets me is that the insurers would have to be insane not to be lobbying on this issue. This is the livlihood, business, and their way of life. Are these multi-billion dollar companies simply going to stand to the side and say,

"Gosh government, you do whatever you think is best and we'll just fall right in line, yessiree"

Of course, they are advocating, lobbying and using every indirect and direct method they know of to make sure this ends to their advantage or at towards as positive a position as possible. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.

Exactly. And I honestly don't think all insurers are against the plan, either, if they can get a piece of the action. More so, I become more suspect when companies such as Koch are involved with the anti-reform efforts.

But, like you said, if the health insurance lobby is against ObamaCare, then they will certainly oppose it though various means.

[SnyderShrugged]

WHY does it just HAVE to be just a health insurer? This is a stupendously silly response. It's as if you have zero clue that multiple industries are part of this debate.


Because I am specifically defending health insurers, I thought that was abundantly clear?

[SnyderShrugged]

What's failure is your contortions to defend the corporations against any sort criticisms. Worse yet, the example I provided was a CLEAR example of "astroturfing," which you totally ignored. You ignore someone such as Rick Scott, who HAS worked for the health industry, being involved in this effort. And, as I said before, this isn't JUST ABOUT THE HEALTH INSURERS, either, as evidenced by other corporate interests in the fray.

There isn't a single piece of information I will provide to you in which you won't stretch yourself into a pretzel to deny or obfuscate.

so you agree now that health insurers arent guilty of astroturf then?

[SnyderShrugged]

What gets me is that the insurers would have to be insane not to be lobbying on this issue. This is the livlihood, business, and their way of life. Are these multi-billion dollar companies simply going to stand to the side and say,

"Gosh government, you do whatever you think is best and we'll just fall right in line, yessiree"

Of course, they are advocating, lobbying and using every indirect and direct method they know of to make sure this ends to their advantage or at towards as positive a position as possible. To do otherwise would be irresponsible.


They are specifically lobbying around the postive parts (In thier view) of the proposed legislation.

[SnyderShrugged]

What's failure is your contortions to defend the corporations against any sort criticisms. Worse yet, the example I provided was a CLEAR example of "astroturfing," which you totally ignored. You ignore someone such as Rick Scott, who HAS worked for the health industry, being involved in this effort. And, as I said before, this isn't JUST ABOUT THE HEALTH INSURERS, either, as evidenced by other corporate interests in the fray.

There isn't a single piece of information I will provide to you in which you won't stretch yourself into a pretzel to deny or obfuscate.


what am I denying or obfuscating?

[Burgold]

I thought I should settle this. I called up one of the mega insurers and asked to speak with their public affairs. When connected, I let them know that I am working on a story on public health policy and the insurers stance. We talked for about ten minutes and they agreed to send me their plan of action.

Because of confidentiality, I am only reproducing the first page here.

http://prmeetsmarketing.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/astroturf.jpg

[SnyderShrugged]

I thought I should settle this. I called up one of the mega insurers and asked to speak with their public affairs. When connected, I let them know that I am working on a story on public health policy and the insurers stance. We talked for about ten minutes and they agreed to send me their plan of action.

Because of confidentiality, I am only reproducing the first page here.

http://prmeetsmarketing.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/astroturf.jpg


LOL! H2O outa my nose!


But if you really would like a connection with a large insurance company to speak with, PM me, I might be able to get you to someone.

[Baculus]

what am I denying or obfuscating?

Because you have denied any astroturfing efforts on the behalf of the anti-reform movement when such information has been posted. And, like I said, this does not have to involve health insurers.

Also, in regard to Dick Gephardt, the health industry definitely plays both sides of the aisle. I am not too crazy about Democrats who are also influenced by the health lobby -- that isn't any better.

[Baculus]

i thought i should settle this. I called up one of the mega insurers and asked to speak with their public affairs. When connected, i let them know that i am working on a story on public health policy and the insurers stance. We talked for about ten minutes and they agreed to send me their plan of action.

Because of confidentiality, i am only reproducing the first page here.

http://prmeetsmarketing.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/astroturf.jpg

:) See!

[SnyderShrugged]

Because you have denied any astroturfing efforts on the behalf of the anti-reform movement when such information has been posted. And, like I said, this does not have to involve health insurers.

Also, in regard to Dick Gephardt, the health industry definitely plays both sides of the aisle. I am not too crazy about Democrats who are also influenced by the health lobby -- that isn't any better.

No, I've said that astroturfing by health insurers isnt happenning, nothing more, nothing less.

Do I think that the vast majority of upset people at the townhalls are "astroturf", no. (but I understand we may be using different definitions, so that may be cloudy)

To be totally honest with you, I've gotten upset at the false accusations of "villainy" from many on the left regarding health insurers in general and I go out of my way to show the truth in that regard in these threads because those silly and unfounded accusations keep appearing in these threads more and more. Not saying they are coming from you, because of late, you've stayed away from it.

[Burgold]

LOL! H2O outa my nose!


But if you really would like a connection with a large insurance company to speak with, PM me, I might be able to get you to someone.

Thanks. I very well might. I've got my stories already lined up through August, but this story certainly will have legs into the Fall. I pursued the Robot story because I wanted to find out what the heck was really going on for myself. This one is probably even more complex. Sadly, if I take it on I'll have to deal with MAJOR policy wonks and those usually give me a headache.

Too many are trained to say nothing in as many words as possible.

[Baculus]

No, I've said that astroturfing by health insurers isnt happenning, nothing more, nothing less.

Do I think that the vast majority of upset people at the townhalls are "astroturf", no. (but I understand we may be using different definitions, so that may be cloudy)

I don't think all most protesters are "astroturf" either, but I believe some have been organized by such organization.

Mpre so, I am a bit unhappy that the anger displayed by some protesters is based upon false information. So this isn't really just about "astroturfing," but partially about disinformation from anti-reformers.


To be totally honest with you, I've gotten upset at the false accusations of "villainy" from many on the left regarding health insurers in general and I go out of my way to show the truth in that regard in these threads because those silly and unfounded accusations keep appearing in these threads more and more. Not saying they are coming from you, because of late, you've stayed away from it.

Fair enough.

I think the accusations of "villainy" is due to the large profit margins of the industry and just problems associated with problems in our health care system. Thus, the insurers become an easy, natural target.

That being said, I realize that the problem involves different facets of the health industry, and that one area of it, the insurance providers, cannot take all the blame.

There is enough of that to go all around. ;)

[JMS]

But if you really would like a connection with a large insurance company to speak with, PM me, I might be able to get you to someone.

So you work for an insurance agency? Why don't you put that on every freaking post for the last three days...

Paid appologist, disinformation distributor, and obfuscator for the health insurance association... Or is it just your hobby?

[SnyderShrugged]

So you work for an insurance agency? Why don't you put that on every freaking post for the last three days...

Paid appologist, disinformation distributor, and obfuscator for the health insurance association... Or is it just your hobby?


I thought it was common knowledge that I work for an insurance company?

I apologize that you werent aware of that. (though, I think most people are)

LOL, paid apologist? hardly, just seeking to clarify the industry's actual position, free from the assumptions and misconceptions.

To be honest, I kind of hate my job! LOL

I did it to myself though, by accepting a relo at a bad time to a rough part of the company.

[SnyderShrugged]

I don't think all most protesters are "astroturf" either, but I believe some have been organized by such organization.

Mpre so, I am a bit unhappy that the anger displayed by some protesters is based upon false information. So this isn't really just about "astroturfing," but partially about disinformation from anti-reformers.



Fair enough.

I think the accusations of "villainy" is due to the large profit margins of the industry and just problems associated with problems in our health care system. Thus, the insurers become an easy, natural target.

That being said, I realize that the problem involves different facets of the health industry, and that one area of it, the insurance providers, cannot take all the blame.

There is enough of that to go all around. ;)


Thats a very reasonable point of view man, and I appreciate it.

(though, when compared to most industries, the profit margins are quite small. Pharma is the big player, I think)

[Duckus]

I have debated SnyderShrugged this issue in a few threads and he is always upfront about working for an insurance company.

[JMS]

I thought it was common knowledge that I work for an insurance company?


It might be. I did not know.



LOL, paid apologist? hardly, just seeking to clarify the industry's actual position, free from the assumptions and misconceptions.


What is your job description? Are you the guy the doctors call up to approve their proceedures? Who get's pain killers and who get's to bight the leather strap kind of thing? Who get's a new kidney and who get's the christmas tree deodorant for the car? Or are you the guy taking the congressmen and senators out to Dominiques for lunch and knee capping the unruly ones?



To be honest, I kind of hate my job! LOL

I did it to myself though, by accepting a relo at a bad time to a rough part of the company.

Bad part of the company, or bad part of the country? In the DC area really the job market is pretty hopping. Unemployment is half the national average and for college educated folks half of that. I hear NIH is hiring, they have a study going involving Crash helmet and blunt trama to the head. Maybe you could be part of the control group. :D

[SnyderShrugged]

It might be. I did not know.



What is your job description? Are you the guy the doctors call up to approve their proceedures? Who get's pain killers and who get's to bight the leather strap kind of thing? Who get's a new kidney and who get's the christmas tree deodorant for the car? Or are you the guy taking the congressmen and senators out to Dominiques for lunch and knee capping the unruly ones?



Bad part of the company, or bad part of the country? In the DC area really the job market is pretty hopping. Unemployment is half the national average and for college educated folks half of that. I hear NIH is hiring, they have a study going involving Crash helmet and blunt trama to the head. Maybe you could be part of the control group. :D



I have a pretty obscure job here, I am a director of quality and process over a new acquisition to the company down in a somewhat depressed part of SC. I also am a Six Sigma master Black belt and strategic consultant (internal only). I get to teach quality improvement methodology and data analysis. I also head up the local audit division.

It's cool in many ways because I've gotten to be immersed in many different parts of the company, mainly leading project Black belts in their improvement efforts.

I mainly dont like the tense atmosphere at this new location because of being newly acquired. I think many may see me as a "home office" spy or something!

[JMS]

(though, when compared to most industries, the profit margins are quite small. Pharma is the big player, I think)

Oil industry, Movie industry, Loan sharking, and Jewl theifing...


Insurance industry was the 12th most profitable industry in he country. (2005)


1 Mining, Crude-Oil Production 29.9
2 Internet Services and Retailing 23.8
3 Commercial Banks 18.3
4 Network and Other Communications Equipment 15.8
5 Pharmaceuticals 15.7
6 Medical Products & Equipment 13.2
7 Securities 12.7
8 Railroads 12.5
9 Diversified Financials 12.4
10 Publishing, Printing 11.8
11 Household and Personal Products 11.1
12 Insurance: Life, Health (stock)
And I think we can safely assume commercial banks, securities, diversified financials are off the list today.

Health insurance companies have seen their profits go up by 50% since this poll was done.

[SnyderShrugged]

Oil industry, Movie industry, Loan sharking, and Jewl theifing...


Insurance industry was the 12th most profitable industry in he country. (2005)


1 Mining, Crude-Oil Production 29.9
2 Internet Services and Retailing 23.8
3 Commercial Banks 18.3
4 Network and Other Communications Equipment 15.8
5 Pharmaceuticals 15.7
6 Medical Products & Equipment 13.2
7 Securities 12.7
8 Railroads 12.5
9 Diversified Financials 12.4
10 Publishing, Printing 11.8
11 Household and Personal Products 11.1
12 Insurance: Life, Health (stock)
And I think we can safely assume commercial banks, securities, diversified financials are off the list today.

Health insurance companies have seen their profits go up by 50% since this poll was done.

health insurance ranks 86th of all industries in regards to profit margin at 3.3%.

http://biz.yahoo.com/p/sum_qpmd.html

[twa]

Texas receives back around $1.80 for every dollar sent to the Feds: You live in a heavily subsidized state. A lot of states are dealing with immigration - it just isn't a Texan problem.

Just because Texas has "manufacturing,shipping,energy producing" doesn't mean you should be entitled more than another state, otherwise it undermines your arguments for a reduction in the federal system.

Did you pull that number out of your ass??:saber:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/266.html

Funny ,but the numbers show it is YOU:chair: who live in a heavily subsidized state

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-140222476.html
Maryland becomes the No. 2 state in per-capita federal spending.

Sucking at the feds tit there a bit hard ain't ya?:hysterical:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/2897950750_d82b8dd021.jpg:)