Om Field: Review - Six Campbell Pass Plays

[Om]

Review: Six Jason Campbell Pass Plays
August 15, 2009


A lot of people seem to think there was a football game played at M&T Bank Stadium Thursday night. I’m not one of them.

Don’t worry. I’m not going to go on about NFL teams approaching preseason games so differently, and using them for such different purposes, that projecting any regular-season meaning onto them—final score or otherwise—is a straight waste of time.

And I won’t get into how these preseason affairs are glorified scrimmages at best, and at worst, slickly packaged, almost criminally overpriced hype passed off as “games” to a football-starved public.

Not today. Today I’m going to parse the only thing I had any real interest in (Brian Orakpo and no injuries notwithstanding) ... Redskins QB Jason Campbell and the offensive line’s performance on passing plays.

There were six. Here’s how I saw them:

First Possession

1st-10, WAS 15. Ravens put four on the LOS. Redskins OL holds firm—no penetration. Campbell takes a 3-step drop, looks far right at Devin Thomas on a slant, short middle at Fred Davis, short middle left at Chris Cooley, then finally to Ladell Betts in the left flat. Four options. The OL is doing its job. Campbell might have chosen to go to Cooley at the first down marker (with a LB about a yard off left shoulder), but he chooses Betts instead, alone in the left flat with blockers. Campbell’s throw is on target as he leads Betts up field for 11 yards (-2 catch, 13 RAC).

Campbell and OL both solid.


2nd-9, WAS 27. Ravens put four on the LOS. Redskins OL holds firm—no penetration. Campbell takes a 5-step drop (play-action fake to Betts), then looks right side toward Thomas & Cooley ...

CLICK HERE (http://www.theomfield.com/2009/08/quick-review-six-campbell-pass-plays.html) to read more

[CurseReversed]

I must admit I did really like how he ran through three or four progressions on that first play before delivering the ball to the flats to get a first down.

Good read OM, I agree some encouraging things in between the lines of what could be described as a horrible "practice"

[JustAfan47]

Good read thanks for sharing

[Major Harris]

i actually was mildly pleased w/ campbells performance. you mention the low throw to randle el, but that was a great throw. it should have been low. randle el had multiple defenders in the area, jc put it where only randle el could catch it. i also thought hagans should have made the catch on the 3rd and 6 play. i only watched it once, so i'll trust you he had someone else open and maybe passed up a first down throw, but i thought hagans needed to make that play.

[RammsteinSkins]

Thanks for sharing. Makes me feel a lot better about Campbell and his progression.

[Thinking Skins]

i also thought hagans should have made the catch on the 3rd and 6 play. i only watched it once, so i'll trust you he had someone else open and maybe passed up a first down throw, but i thought hagans needed to make that play.

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.redskins.com/media/2009/08/hagans.jpg

I'd say he shoulda had that.

[JustAfan47]

^^^^^Thats still a really high throw but yeah should have pulled that rock in. ;)

[TheLongshot]

Pretty solid analysis of what little we could look into what there was of the starting offensive lineup. Overall it was solid, if not spectacular.

There are a couple of comments I do want to make about the Hagans pass. One, people complain that Campbell can't find the wide open guy. Well, he did on that play. Unfortunately, it might not have been the best play. It kinda illustrates that just because a guy is wide open doesn't mean he's the best option. The other comment is that if there is a taller receiver than Hagens catching that ball, it would have had a decent chance of getting caught. It illustrated the importance of Thomas and Kelly stepping up and becoming part of the starting offensive lineup.

[Om]

Major,

The backfield view of JC's pass to ARE showed one defender off ARE's right hip with a yard or so of separation. The defender on his other side was 2-3 yards off the play and not a factor. Jason's pass was properly located on ARE's left side, away from the nearest defender on his right hip, but about a foot to a foot-and-a-half lower than it needed to be. ARE had lay down to get it, which is a tough catch coming back toward the QB. It was also a rifle shot from 23 yards away off by a foot to a foot-and-a-half. You'll notice I labeled said ball "on target" and rated JC "solid" on the play.

The throw to Hagans was high. Man has to jump and can't get there, that's kind of the definition of the term. :) As I said though, it close, and the kind of play that if Hagans comes down with it everyone's excited about. It's preseason and I don't fault Jason for throwing it. However, given the result, the smarter play, and the play that would have given the offense at least three more downs, would have been to take the relatively easy first down play with Cooley.

Unfortunately for Jason, that's one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't plays ... at least among fans. He gets criticized for not finding the open man or challenging downfield, then gets criticized for doing just that instead of taking the sure first down. I'm looking at it as I suspect Zorn is. In that situation, the smart play would have been to take the 1st down.

[JustAfan47]

The other comment is that if there is a taller receiver than Hagens catching that ball, it would have had a decent chance of getting caught. It illustrated the importance of Thomas and Kelly stepping up and becoming part of the starting offensive lineup.

I was just thinking that to myself.......:D

[Shilsu]

Just a question, how is throwing short to Cooley a better play than throwing to a wide open receiver deep? I guess you might say that it's easier to throw short than deep, but at the NFL level, throwing to someone WIDE OPEN should be a high percentage play.

And let's not get into expected returns.

[Om]

If you look at the play again, Shilsu, you'll see that the pass to Hagans came after Jason pulled the ball down instead of going Cooley, and instead started drifting back into the line and looking downfield. My "criticism" isn't really about going to Hagans, it was the decision before he ever saw Hagans to pull back from the Cooley throw, then put himself in trouble by drifting back into traffic while looking for other options. The play was there, I think he should have taken it. On 3rd down, the smart play is to take the sure first down.

[AB]

The other comment is that if there is a taller receiver than Hagens catching that ball, it would have had a decent chance of getting caught. It illustrated the importance of Thomas and Kelly stepping up and becoming part of the starting offensive lineup.

:applause:


this was a good read.

[Shilsu]

If you look at the play again, Shilsu, you'll see that the pass to Hagans came after Jason pulled the ball down instead of going Cooley, and instead started drifting back into the line and looking downfield. My "criticism" isn't really about going to Hagans, it was the decision before he ever saw Hagans to pull back from the Cooley throw, then put himself in trouble by drifting back into traffic while looking for other options. The play was there, I think he should have taken it. On 3rd down, the smart play is to take the sure first down.

Okay, I think I see what you're getting at in that maybe he was indecisive.

But I'd like to say that Jason Campbell should have been able to read the field and look at Hagans first, especially if he was that wide open. There was a post earlier today about Campbell on radio saying he wasn't even supposed to look at Hagans, and that just sent all sorts of warning signs. I don't know if it's bad coaching, or Jim Zorn just simplifying reads for Campbell, but there is something very wrong about that statement.

[Shilsu]

Pretty solid analysis of what little we could look into what there was of the starting offensive lineup. Overall it was solid, if not spectacular.

There are a couple of comments I do want to make about the Hagans pass. One, people complain that Campbell can't find the wide open guy. Well, he did on that play. Unfortunately, it might not have been the best play. It kinda illustrates that just because a guy is wide open doesn't mean he's the best option. The other comment is that if there is a taller receiver than Hagens catching that ball, it would have had a decent chance of getting caught. It illustrated the importance of Thomas and Kelly stepping up and becoming part of the starting offensive lineup.

Um, the wide open guy deep down the field is always the best play unless there's someone even more open further down the field. And height is supposed to be an advantage over shorter defenders and catching balls in traffic... It's not supposed to be something you need when you're wide open.

[SirClintonPortis]

Just for the record, Campbell had extra time thanks to Rhinehart to look for Hagans. Or at least that's what Campbell says.

[BlackBush]

I'd say he shoulda had that.

Kelly would've one handed that one

[redskins55]

Review: Six Jason Campbell Pass Plays
August 15, 2009




First Possession

1st-10, WAS 15. Ravens put four on the LOS. Redskins OL holds firm—no penetration. Campbell takes a 3-step drop, looks far right at Devin Thomas on a slant, short middle at Fred Davis, short middle left at Chris Cooley, then finally to Ladell Betts in the left flat. Four options. The OL is doing its job. Campbell might have chosen to go to Cooley at the first down marker (with a LB about a yard off left shoulder), but he chooses Betts instead, alone in the left flat with blockers. Campbell’s throw is on target as he leads Betts up field for 11 yards (-2 catch, 13 RAC).

Campbell and OL both solid.



CLICK HERE (http://www.theomfield.com/2009/08/quick-review-six-campbell-pass-plays.html) to read more

I liked your detailed break down of the passing plays but I have to point out somethings.

On the first down pass it was absolutely the correct throw. Thoma's slant pattern was covered, Fred Davis and Cooley both were blanketed in the middle by three backers( I honestly believe Davis didnt get enough separation from Cooley, something that happend often last year where receivers would be in the same area) so the only option was the Betts check down wide open for the 11yd first down pick up.

I see that you said he possibly couldve thrown that to Cooley on that play.. yup and Cooley would've definitely been blasted by Ray Lewis who was bearing down on him. Cooley also has fumbled in many situations like that where he gets hit right after he catches a pass. He's best in the open field to rumble.


On the third down pass to Hagans. Campbell's first options were all covered. Thomas and Cooley Blanketed, Randle El doubled, Hagans as stated in the presser wasn't even a option on that play but the coverage rolled to the other receiving options which left him wide open. Campbell was alert in seeing him, but lets be honest Ray Lewis was all in his grill when Campbell attempted to throw it. The loose end on that drive changing play was Chad Reinhart. On that entire pass play he never blocked a soul.He simply waited for the person in front of him to rush but the defender stayed back. If Reinhart would've had his head on a swivel (like they teach linemen to do all the time) then he would've seen Ray Lewis to his left and been able to block him just enough for Campbell to get a more accurate pass off. I actually disagree with many who think Hagans shouldve caught it. I believe Hagans jumped as high as he could. If that were Thomas or Kelly its a huge gain.

I think Campbell was excellent on these two plays. The o-line was excellent on the first (albeit a quick hitter pass) and mediocre on the 3rd down pass.
But again great analysis OM!

[HailfrmDEN]

The play with the low pass to ARE, if you have a dvr, check it out again. If that pass was higher as it probley should of been, it would have been deflected by the CB. He was diving for the pass and tried to curve his body down ward to block it. You didn't see different camera angles. He had an eye on the ball. Campbell good bad, i think campbell good. At some parts of this game the reciever is to "go get" the ball. The QB controls the game not sends txt messages sayin "hes on your back come closer".

Another thing! No one has said anything about landry on hitting flaco(i cant type what i want to type for his name). He was walkin arround confused. Oh! head set problem! The ravens coach saw it why not us!

Last year here in Denver, our freinds would sit next to us during a game. We would call out the plays before they happened. They looked at us like we were crazy. How do you know that they would say. If we know a professional knows.

You can say the same



i just looked at the play to haggans again. Betts ran out from the same hole lewis came in. Right next each other. He looked for the pass before connecting a second block.

[HailfrmDEN]

Dont listen to the people on TV. That was a good game for us. They got 3 on our 1st, more on their 1st stringe on our second. And their 2nd on our third. We looked at more then they did. This game was not about winning. And the younger coach wasted sometime. Oh yeah oher will have more penalties than toes this year.

even adding the five head he will get alot. Driving wynn to the grown with his head will draw penalties later than earlier. dirty dirty!

[Sebowski]

I'm going to finally get a chance to watch the game tomorrow. Was Campbell trying to trick the coverage with any looks? For example: Maybe Hagan was that open because he almost threw to Cooley?

[skinsnut18231977]

great read, I would hope you will do this for the next game...

[tr1]

Personally, I'd like the Skins to throw a 45 yard bomb in the first series of every game.

It leaves a lasting first impression on defensive backfields that the guy has an arm and crowding the short stuff could be a mistake.

[Califan007]

Nice breakdown :applause:...Feel like doing one for Collins and Colt? lol :D

[Hubbs]

Om, I agree with virtually everything you said. Jason generally showed good decision-making, and while he didn't take any big shots downfield, I have to wonder if he ever had the opportunity, given the reports about the O-line coming out of camp combined with Zorn's comment that he couldn't call any deep plays late last year because of the line. Nobody wants their starting QB hurt during meaningless preseason just because of a desire to have a nice ooooh ahhhhh deep ball.

That said, it would have been nice if Zorn had recognized that Campbell actually was getting pretty good protection Thursday night and said, "**** it, I'm pulling out a deep strike and seeing what the kid can do." If the line continues to hold up, this is definitely something we need to see in game two or three.

[MrJL]

Um, the wide open guy deep down the field is always the best play unless there's someone even more open further down the field. And height is supposed to be an advantage over shorter defenders and catching balls in traffic... It's not supposed to be something you need when you're wide open.


Campbell was moving. QB's aren't always perfect when throwing and moving.

As to when throwing to a non-wide open player is the better move? How about when the non-wide open player is your sure handed TE who has a first down, and the wide open guy is a rookie playing his first pro game at that position.

[Mickalino]

I'd say he shoulda had that.


^^^^^Thats still a really high throw but yeah should have pulled that rock in. ;)

No, that ball was not catchable. Hagans leaped as high as he could, and timed his jump perfectly, and still the ball barely touched the very top fingertips, making it impossible to get enough "palm" on the ball to bring it in. Ball was too high. Campbell's error. Just because a receiver makes physical contact with the ball, doesn't mean it's catchable. The momentum of the ball overpowered the tippy tips of his fingertips, and would do so every time.

[Om]

Um, the wide open guy deep down the field is always the best play unless there's someone even more open further down the field. And height is supposed to be an advantage over shorter defenders and catching balls in traffic... It's not supposed to be something you need when you're wide open.
Um, only if you ignore down and distance, and discount the main point of my observation---that the first down play was there, JC passed up on it in favor of drifting into traffic and then starting to look downfield, where he found Hagans at the last possible instant and had to rush a throw that then went, not surprisingly, high.

Context man. It matters.

[jnhay]

Um, the wide open guy deep down the field is always the best play unless there's someone even more open further down the field. And height is supposed to be an advantage over shorter defenders and catching balls in traffic... It's not supposed to be something you need when you're wide open.

I think he might have been wide open only because the play broke down.

[Om]

I liked your detailed break down of the passing plays but I have to point out somethings.

On the first down pass it was absolutely the correct throw. Thoma's slant pattern was covered, Fred Davis and Cooley both were blanketed in the middle by three backers( I honestly believe Davis didnt get enough separation from Cooley, something that happend often last year where receivers would be in the same area) so the only option was the Betts check down wide open for the 11yd first down pick up.

I see that you said he possibly couldve thrown that to Cooley on that play.. yup and Cooley would've definitely been blasted by Ray Lewis who was bearing down on him. Cooley also has fumbled in many situations like that where he gets hit right after he catches a pass. He's best in the open field to rumble.
I agreed with you, brother. I mentioned Cooley was an option, that's all. :)



On the third down pass to Hagans. Campbell's first options were all covered. Thomas and Cooley Blanketed, Randle El doubled, Hagans as stated in the presser wasn't even a option on ....
We saw it differently, it seems. What I saw was Cooley about a half second from coming out of his break toward the sideline when JC was ready to throw. Instead of giving him that extra half second (or throwing to the spot and trusting Cooley would turn in time), Jason pulled it down, started drifting back toward the LOS and looking elsewhere. To me it looked impatient and probably a mistake given the good protection. He had plenty of time to wait on Cooley for what would likely have been a routine first down pass.

Thanks for the kind words, my friend ... and like anything else, this shows how easy it is for two people to look at the same exact situation and read it very differently. Let's just hope however Zorn reads it will result in some good teaching to the key participant(s) in question.

[Custer]

I liked your detailed break down of the passing plays but I have to point out somethings.

On the first down pass it was absolutely the correct throw. Thoma's slant pattern was covered, Fred Davis and Cooley both were blanketed in the middle by three backers( I honestly believe Davis didnt get enough separation from Cooley, something that happend often last year where receivers would be in the same area) so the only option was the Betts check down wide open for the 11yd first down pick up.

I see that you said he possibly couldve thrown that to Cooley on that play.. yup and Cooley would've definitely been blasted by Ray Lewis who was bearing down on him. Cooley also has fumbled in many situations like that where he gets hit right after he catches a pass. He's best in the open field to rumble.


On the third down pass to Hagans. Campbell's first options were all covered. Thomas and Cooley Blanketed, Randle El doubled, Hagans as stated in the presser wasn't even a option on that play but the coverage rolled to the other receiving options which left him wide open. Campbell was alert in seeing him, but lets be honest Ray Lewis was all in his grill when Campbell attempted to throw it. The loose end on that drive changing play was Chad Reinhart. On that entire pass play he never blocked a soul.He simply waited for the person in front of him to rush but the defender stayed back. If Reinhart would've had his head on a swivel (like they teach linemen to do all the time) then he would've seen Ray Lewis to his left and been able to block him just enough for Campbell to get a more accurate pass off. I actually disagree with many who think Hagans shouldve caught it. I believe Hagans jumped as high as he could. If that were Thomas or Kelly its a huge gain.

I think Campbell was excellent on these two plays. The o-line was excellent on the first (albeit a quick hitter pass) and mediocre on the 3rd down pass.
But again great analysis OM!


With the lean toward delayed blitzes, regarding Reinhart, should he move off two who had nor drifted back, but had just not rushed???

This is neat stuff.... great film work guys...

[Philip Pease]

Thank you Om for this post. I feel better about the starting OL and thus our offense in general than I had (especially considering the Ravens traditionally have a very tough defense).

[KingGibbs]

Thanks for taking the time to dissect those "passes" OM.

But, I think the fact that we are analyzing six passes thrown Campbell tells me that we are protecting and making excuses for Campbell....again.

That pass to Hagan is a prime example. People are saying he "should have caught it" but as the snap shot shows there was not a defender within five yards of him and JC could've thrown a much more catchable ball.

We all would like to see JC succeed because he is our QB, but I still haven't seen anything that would suggest he's turning the corner. Like I said, the fact that we are (over)analysing his every pass speaks volume as to where the 'skins stand at the QB position.


BTW. Whomever rated this thread a one star? You're a loser. There's some good discussion going on and this coming from someone that doesn't always agree with OM.

[Om]

Thanks for taking the time to digest those "passes" OM.

But, I think the fact that we are analyzing six passes thrown Campbell tells me that we are protecting and making excuses for Campbell....again.

That pass to Hagan is a prime example. People are saying he "should have caught it" but as the snap shot shows there was not a defender within five yards of him and JC could've thrown a much more catchable ball.

We all would like to see JC succeed because he is our QB, but I still haven't seen anything that would suggest he's turning the corner. Like I said, the fact that we are (over)analysing his every pass speaks volume as to where the 'skins stand at the QB position.

BTW. Whomever rated this thread a one star? You're a loser. There's some good discussion going on and this coming from someone that doesn't always agree with OM.
Thanks, KG.

I'm not part of that "we," by the way. I'm neither protecting nor trashing JC, the OL, Zorn or anyone else. I'm observing with a determinedly impartial eye and reporting what I see. I know that confuses a lot of people who assume anything they read is agenda-driven, but there it is.

[Dead Money]

The difference b/w Campbell and better QBs is when they have a WR open like Hagans was they touch it to him enabling a big play. Campbell Never does... Repeatedly, you will see Campbell late with wide open WRs only to have that WR covered up by time the ball gets there or make the catch and get nowhere.(more often than not) Always indecisive, always late, never in stride unless its across the middle which coincides with where his eyes always are. He's slow and deliberate, and defenders hone in on it all the time and blast our QB, WRs, TEs, & RBs or force checkdowns. He's better than poor because he'll check it down but thats about the most I can say for him at this point in his career. If he doesn't have a Drew Brees "light came on" year like Brees did in his final year at San Diego... He'll be a career backup.

The biggest problem for the franchise I see is that we have no body like Philip Rivers waiting in the wings because we had too many needs to address QB in the draft. Big trade coming up sometime soon... Bank on it.

[KingGibbs]

Thanks, KG.

I'm not part of that "we," by the way. I'm neither protecting nor trashing JC, the OL, Zorn or anyone else. I'm observing with a determinedly impartial eye and reporting what I see. I know that confuses a lot of people who assume anything they read is agenda-driven, but there it is.

Oh, I know you're seeing with an impartial eye and not wearing those burgundy and gold colored glasses 24/7 like some do. I have more respect for those that can discuss Redskins whether positive or negative. If I see a problem with a position, coach or the organization as a whole I'm going to call it like I see it. Some people have issues with that and to that I say, too bad. Deal with it.

I enjoy your reads and can see that you really put a lot of work and thought into them and it's easy to see that you enjoy doing it.


BTW. I meant to say dissect not digest in my original post.:doh:

[TomE]

Context man. It matters.

good luck with getting that one to sink in

[Digger]

Good read there. Thanks for doing that. You should do one for the 'Colt' series. Here, I'll get you started, "Ball snapped, jailbreak, Colt runs for his life" (just cut and paste for each play)

[Oldfan]

i actually was mildly pleased w/ campbells performance. you mention the low throw to randle el, but that was a great throw. it should have been low. randle el had multiple defenders in the area, jc put it where only randle el could catch it.

Agreed. That was one helluva throw requiring both accuracy and velocity. It illustrates why Jim Zorn prizes both abilities. It also illustrates that Jason is capable of of recognizing the coverage and reacting to it by putting the ball where only his receiver could catch it as you said.

Overall, I thought the first team did fine.

[isle-hawg]

Thank you for the exceptional breakdown of those plays!

[SWFLSkins]

Great insight OM,

In pertaining to this, I find this is one of the things I don't like about the WC offense, you miss oppourtunities. On one hand the coaches don't want JC to hold the ball and just hit these plays quick, and then you see guys wide open down the field not getting the ball. I still think JC and TC both are drop back passers who not only need time but need to survey the field.

There was no apparent reason to rush throw given the protection—Campbell’s better option would have been Randle El, uncovered at the first down marker out of the left slot. Campbell dropped, turned and threw without any hesitation or seeming to find Thomas first; clearly throwing to a spot. Unless he was directed to throw that pass regardless of coverage, it’s a poor decision given the time to throw, the rushed and/or forced pass and missed opportunity for the likely first down attempt to ARE.

OL solid, Campbell questionable.

[21forlyfe]

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.redskins.com/media/2009/08/hagans.jpg

I'd say he shoulda had that.
That pass was way too high to be thrown that hard...I wish JC will star to put a lil more air in his throws that way he will become more accurate

[KingGibbs]

Overall, I thought the first team did fine.

I don't know what game you were watching, but our backups played like absolute garbage.

There's two things I look for in preseason games.

1.For the starting unit(s) to show some signs of cohesiveness. The third preseason game is where we should see that due to the starters playing a whole half so, I'm not taking much from the other night.

2.For our backups to show some ability to be able to step in w/out too much of a dropoff in talent and yes I know there is a dropoff, but I would like to see some MAJOR improvements in the coming weeks because Baltimore's backups looked like starters against us.

[Digger]

Nice pic 21forlyfe. That picture is the perfect counter argument for the saying "If the receiver can touch it, he should catch it".

[ST is my boy]

After finally watching the game on NFL network today, im suprised at the huge backlash to be honest.

Jason looked just fine to me, as did the first team offensive line. The first team defesne looked sharp as well, they just got caught on one play to Ray Rice.

I think the only thing this game proved was that our backups arent very good, and thats pretty typical for the redskins. They spend so much money on the starters, our backups are always terrible.

The only thing I do find odd is the fact that JC only got to throw 6 passes. Really Zorn? You have Tom Brady and Donovon Mcnabb throwing almost 20, and you give JC 6 throws?

[Major Harris]

Major,

The backfield view of JC's pass to ARE showed one defender off ARE's right hip with a yard or so of separation. The defender on his other side was 2-3 yards off the play and not a factor. Jason's pass was properly located on ARE's left side, away from the nearest defender on his right hip, but about a foot to a foot-and-a-half lower than it needed to be. ARE had lay down to get it, which is a tough catch coming back toward the QB. It was also a rifle shot from 23 yards away off by a foot to a foot-and-a-half. You'll notice I labeled said ball "on target" and rated JC "solid" on the play.

i'd have to see it again. i watched it live, and they showed it on replay, i felt like it was where it needed to be.



The throw to Hagans was high. Man has to jump and can't get there, that's kind of the definition of the term. :) As I said though, it close, and the kind of play that if Hagans comes down with it everyone's excited about. It's preseason and I don't fault Jason for throwing it. However, given the result, the smarter play, and the play that would have given the offense at least three more downs, would have been to take the relatively easy first down play with Cooley.


i'm well aware of the definition of the term "high." i agree the throw was high, my only point is, the receiver still has to make that catch. i guess i should have been more clear, that i thought your analysis of the throw was good, i'd just go a bit further and say hagans needs to bring that down.

[TheDoyler23]

Nice writeup, OM.

I think mildly encouraging is an accurate description. Things could've gone the other way (like the Haggans toss) pretty easily.

I wish the O line had opened a few more holes for Betts, though. At least it was a small sample size.

[RFK Lives]

Reality Check...cashed. Thanks OM, nice analysis of the most worrisome part of the team going into this season.

[Thinking Skins]

Nice pic 21forlyfe. That picture is the perfect counter argument for the saying "If the receiver can touch it, he should catch it".

you sure about that? He was able to get enough of a grip on that ball that he shoulda come down with it.

[wvtbred]

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.redskins.com/media/2009/08/hagans.jpg

I'd say he shoulda had that.

I think it shows how athletic he was to get that close to a ball so overthrown to a wide open receiver.

[Thinking Skins]

i'm well aware of the definition of the term "high." i agree the throw was high, my only point is, the receiver still has to make that catch. i guess i should have been more clear, that i thought your analysis of the throw was good, i'd just go a bit further and say hagans needs to bring that down.

Exactly.

What I question is why was Hagans on the field. Isn't the depth chart Moss->El->Thomas->Kelly? If thats the case, then why wasn't one of those four running that route? In which case, I'm more confident the catch woulda been made.

[Thinking Skins]

I think it shows how athletic he was to get that close to a ball so overthrown to a wide open receiver.

well I think he showed his butterfingers by dropping passes by Collins and Colt as well. But I'm sure you'll find some kinda way to blame those later drops on Campbell as well. Maybe Campbell was secretly greasing up the balls.....

[mnb123]

Exactly.

What I question is why was Hagans on the field. Isn't the depth chart Moss->El->Thomas->Kelly? If thats the case, then why wasn't one of those four running that route? In which case, I'm more confident the catch woulda been made.

hagans wasn't supposed to be a read so It wouldn't have mattered who was in there if the play was executed right.

[Califan007]

well I think he showed his butterfingers by dropping passes by Collins and Colt as well. But I'm sure you'll find some kinda way to blame those later drops on Campbell as well. Maybe Campbell was secretly greasing up the balls.....

wvt's posts are agenda-driven...

[MrJL]

The difference b/w Campbell and better QBs is when they have a WR open like Hagans was they touch it to him enabling a big play. Campbell Never does... Repeatedly, you will see Campbell late with wide open WRs only to have that WR covered up by time the ball gets there or make the catch and get nowhere.(more often than not) Always indecisive, always late, never in stride unless its across the middle which coincides with where his eyes always are. He's slow and deliberate, and defenders hone in on it all the time and blast our QB, WRs, TEs, & RBs or force checkdowns. He's better than poor because he'll check it down but thats about the most I can say for him at this point in his career. If he doesn't have a Drew Brees "light came on" year like Brees did in his final year at San Diego... He'll be a career backup.

The biggest problem for the franchise I see is that we have no body like Philip Rivers waiting in the wings because we had too many needs to address QB in the draft. Big trade coming up sometime soon... Bank on it.

he was stepping up to avoid a rush as he made that throw.

[wvtbred]

wvt's posts are agenda-driven...

I have no agenda other then having the best players on the field giving us the best chance to win every game. Also to make sure the best career years of our key players such as Portis, Fletcher, Moss, Sellers etc. are not wasted waiting for something that is not going to happen.

If you want to call that agenda driven then 99% of the people posting on here have an agenda of one type or another.

Hail to the Redskins!

[Major Harris]

Maybe Campbell was secretly greasing up the balls.....
it was pretty hot and humid. all the balls were probably already pretty greasy.

[wvtbred]

The difference b/w Campbell and better QBs is when they have a WR open like Hagans was they touch it to him enabling a big play. Campbell Never does... Repeatedly, you will see Campbell late with wide open WRs only to have that WR covered up by time the ball gets there or make the catch and get nowhere.(more often than not) Always indecisive, always late, never in stride unless its across the middle which coincides with where his eyes always are. He's slow and deliberate, and defenders hone in on it all the time and blast our QB, WRs, TEs, & RBs or force checkdowns. He's better than poor because he'll check it down but thats about the most I can say for him at this point in his career. If he doesn't have a Drew Brees "light came on" year like Brees did in his final year at San Diego... He'll be a career backup.

The biggest problem for the franchise I see is that we have no body like Philip Rivers waiting in the wings because we had too many needs to address QB in the draft. Big trade coming up sometime soon... Bank on it.

I was thinking the same thing but who would be available? Quinn?, Leinart?

Not a lot out there.

[Shilsu]

Um, only if you ignore down and distance, and discount the main point of my observation---that the first down play was there, JC passed up on it in favor of drifting into traffic and then starting to look downfield, where he found Hagans at the last possible instant and had to rush a throw that then went, not surprisingly, high.

Context man. It matters.

I already said that if your point is that Jason Campbell was too indecisive, then I agree, but the better outcome would have been that Jason Campbell would have been able to recognize that Hagans was wide open earlier. A more extreme example aiding what I think your argument is would have been if Jason Campbell was rolling to the right and Hagans was wide open the left... Most coaches would definitely not want Jason Campbell trying to throw across his body to the left.

Anyway, I'm not going to blame Campbell all on the misread yet. As mentioned before, his quote from radio is highly disturbing in that somebody was telling him to not look Hagans' way.

My point is that the best play (which includes read) would have been to find Hagans wide open over Cooley. Unless running the clock is a factor, which it wasn't, down and distance has no bearing on which is the better play. Hitting a short Cooley and hitting a deep wide open wide receiver should both be high percentage plays, with one having a much higher return.

[mistertim]

Why do I think that Campbell has a tendency to go through his "progressions" automatically and then choose the last one. He appears robotic not instinctive to me.

Why am I completely unsurprised by a post like this from you? First, its "Campbell stares down his receiver" then its "he goes though his reads too quickly or robotically". Make up your damn minds. Going through football receiving progressions is not an "instinctive" thing for a human to do, especially when you have different and specific read progressions on almost every play. Give it a rest.

[Shilsu]

Campbell was moving. QB's aren't always perfect when throwing and moving.

As to when throwing to a non-wide open player is the better move? How about when the non-wide open player is your sure handed TE who has a first down, and the wide open guy is a rookie playing his first pro game at that position.

The only problem is that Jason Campbell was stepping up into his throw, it wasn't like he was scrambling. As for a wide open rookie vs short pass to a pro.... Ummm... The wide open rookie is still the better option. That's the whole reason our offense has been so stagnant for the better part... If you can't trust a receiver who is wide open... That's just horrible.

[Shilsu]

I think he might have been wide open only because the play broke down.

This is the kind of thing that Santana Moss talked about during training camp in the interview about missed opportunities.

[FanboyOf91]

Good write-up, Om.

[apiah]

did campbell have a lot of pressure when he threw that deep pass to hagans..because i kind of remember that him not having enough space...but if their was no pressure he has no excuse for not hitting him between the numbers especially if he was wide open.

[Shilsu]

did campbell have a lot of pressure when he threw that deep pass to hagans..because i kind of remember that him not having enough space...but if their was no pressure he has no excuse for not hitting him between the numbers especially if he was wide open.

He got hit at the end, but he was in the pocket for ample time.

[paloffs]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/9608/oline.png

With this starting OLine, I was thoroughly impressed. ;)

Rinehart was actually the starter, not Dixon.

Seriously, our line did pretty well against the Ravens' DLine.

[Shilsu]

With this starting OLine, I was thoroughly impressed. ;)

Rinehart was actually the starter, not Dixon.

Seriously, our line did pretty well against the Ravens' DLine.

They definitely did a lot better than I expected in pass protection, particularly Mike Williams with the second string. Run blocking was what I expected though.

[Tut77]

Very nice writeup, Om. On the Hagans pass, I think it was uncatchable. Hagans jumped pretty high and it touched his fingertips, he made a nice try for the ball, but it was just too high. Re JC's decision-making in throwing that pass, I understand the argument that the pass to Cooley was likely the better (higher percentage) option on 3rd down...but I like JC taking that chance there. And I want him to keep taking those chances when the opportunities arise.

[apiah]

He got hit at the end, but he was in the pocket for ample time.

so basically no excuse right...because i am getting sick of watching ppl like brees and brady hit ppl right on the money.. and then seeing mark sanchez do it as well...and then wonder what the heck is stopping campbell from being that accurate. Eh whatever though i expect him to be hitting ppl on the money for deep passes next game...

[Shilsu]

I understand the argument that the pass to Cooley was likely the better (higher percentage) option on 3rd down...but I like JC taking that chance there. And I want him to keep taking those chances when the opportunities arise.

Not singling you out, but you know it's very depressing that we Redskins fans now consider throwing the ball to a wide open receiver "taking a chance". :-(

[Digger]

you sure about that? He was able to get enough of a grip on that ball that he shoulda come down with it.

yeah, i'm sure about that

[fwarren]

I am shocked by Jason's post game comments and Friday interviews and that is probably his problem. He is satisfied with poor performance. He 3 for 6 because he couldn't get but one first down and overthrew one pass and underthrew another wide open receiver. He doesn't deserve to be a starter. There is no fire in Jason and no need to excel. Colt didn't look much better but he was playing with 3rd and 4th string O line and was always under pressure. At least he can move. Let's put him in with the first team and see how he does. Coach,please give us a chance and find a QB. Jason isn't it! We just watched the continuation of the second half
of last season.
I like Zorn and want him to stay around but not if he is married to Jason.

[paloffs]

They definitely did a lot better than I expected in pass protection, particularly Mike Williams with the second string. Run blocking was what I expected though.
I completely forgot to look for Williams. While reviewing the game, I was only watching Rinehart and Heyer (both of which did pretty well). I've gotta check in on Big Mike.

[Oldfan]

I don't know what game you were watching, but our backups played like absolute garbage.

I don't know whose quote you were reading, but mine said that the FIRST TEAM looked fine.

[SirClintonPortis]

I am shocked by Jason's post game comments and Friday interviews and that is probably his problem. He is satisfied with poor performance. He 3 for 6 because he couldn't get but one first down and overthrew one pass and underthrew another wide open receiver. He doesn't deserve to be a starter. There is no fire in Jason and no need to excel. Colt didn't look much better but he was playing with 3rd and 4th string O line and was always under pressure. At least he can move. Let's put him in with the first team and see how he does. Coach,please give us a chance and find a QB. Jason isn't it! We just watched the continuation of the second half
of last season.
I like Zorn and want him to stay around but not if he is married to Jason.
It sounded like he was satisfied that he was going through his progressions well more than anything else. Of course, it wouldn't matter to you that he's going through them because all of his throws are staredowns.

[SirClintonPortis]

Also, I think the overthrows is Jason getting too tense and maybe not following through when he feels about to get hit; he himself said that he had extra time on that play though.

[ciresolstice]

I am shocked by Jason's post game comments and Friday interviews and that is probably his problem. He is satisfied with poor performance. He 3 for 6 because he couldn't get but one first down and overthrew one pass and underthrew another wide open receiver. He doesn't deserve to be a starter. There is no fire in Jason and no need to excel. Colt didn't look much better but he was playing with 3rd and 4th string O line and was always under pressure. At least he can move. Let's put him in with the first team and see how he does. Coach,please give us a chance and find a QB. Jason isn't it! We just watched the continuation of the second half
of last season.
I like Zorn and want him to stay around but not if he is married to Jason.




^^^^ If you read/listened to the Zorn presser. there are no 3rd/4th string Oline. There is the first unit and the second unit. So true Colt had a lesser oline in front of him when he was in there but don't exaggerate.

[thesubmittedone]

Dont listen to the people on TV. That was a good game for us. They got 3 on our 1st, more on their 1st stringe on our second. And their 2nd on our third. We looked at more then they did. This game was not about winning. And the younger coach wasted sometime. Oh yeah oher will have more penalties than toes this year.

even adding the five head he will get alot. Driving wynn to the grown with his head will draw penalties later than earlier. dirty dirty!

Thank you, finally someone who gets it. Well put man.

That's just it. We benefited way more from this game than the Ravens. We saw our backups going against starters in the league, and we got some great "learning situations" as Zorn put it from that. All the Ravens can say is they attacked and won... a game that doesn't count. Good job attacking Tryon Flacco. Way to go! :thumbsup:

[The Diesel]

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.redskins.com/media/2009/08/hagans.jpg

I'd say he shoulda had that.


Biscuit isn't but about 5'9". He was lucky to get his hands on it. I don't think he had a very good shot at making the catch.


OM -

You broke these plays down very well and it's given me a small respite from my utter pessimism. I just saw another stat that really made me almost throw up in my mouth though. Total offense: BAL 500 WAS 196. I don't know how you can sugar coat that.

[apiah]

You shouldn't be Tim ... check out Sanchez' throw to Clowny down the right side line in last night's Jets game ... he sees the whole field and instinctively goes to the open receiever down the field with a perfect-touch pass. Compare Campbell's throw to Hagans ... an inaccurate panic heave thrown off-balance for the sake of his progression. This after 4 years ... you "Campbell guys" need counseling. He won't last beyond the Tampa game.

Campbell threw that pass while he was getting hit...Sanchez didnt. So whats your point again...

[21forlyfe]

Don't get me wrong folks..If the ball touches the hands you should catch it,espically when you are trying to make a team.Infact he might get cut for that drop...I like JC,and I am rooting for him,but becuase i like hiim dosen't mean i wont call it how i see it..IMHO i think JC Throws with too much steam...it takes away from his accuracy..If he just put's a lil more air on his throws,IMO i think we will see a more accurate QB.The guy was WIDE open,it was a blown coverage..there was no need for the pass to be thrown so hard.I can understand why it was high pass he is 6'5, the WR was about 5'10,but If the ball was thrown with air, the WR probably would have snagged it.I agree100% with the "if it hits the hands you should catch it" cliche, but i can say that was a difficult catch to make.

[apiah]

Don't get me wrong folks..If the ball touches the hands you should catch it,espically when you are trying to make a team.Infact he might get cut for that drop...I like JC,and I am rooting for him,but becuase i like hiim dosen't mean i wont call it how i see it..IMHO i think JC Throws with too much steam...it takes away from his accuracy..If he just put's a lil more air on his throws,IMO i think we will see a more accurate QB.The guy was WIDE open,it was a blown coverage..there was no need for the pass to be thrown so hard.I can understand why it was high pass he is 6'5, the WR was about 5'10,but If the ball was thrown with air, the WR probably would have snagged it.I agree100% with the "if it hits the hands you should catch it" cliche, but i can say that was a difficult catch to make.

it was a difficult throw to make seeing as how he had a raven in his face right when he threw the ball and if he did put more air under it whos not to say someone could have ran to hagans and forced an incompletion?

[bubba9497]

Nice pic 21forlyfe. That picture is the perfect counter argument for the saying "If the receiver can touch it, he should catch it".

both hands are on the ball....he should catch it


BTW, if I'm not mistaken JC was hit as he threw the ball... causing it to be high

[bubba9497]

wvt's posts are agenda-driven...


unfortunately so are several other posters :(

[wvtbred]

I am watching the game again right now and Jason looks like Jason of late last year, no difference. Todd looked really good overall and I like the way the oline played early

You guys really want to win or waste a year? If you do Jason can't be the starter.

[ncr2h]

Let me take a second to clarify something to all the people bashing Jason for the throw to Hagans:

HE WAS GETTING TRUCKED AS HE RELEASED THE BALL.

If you guys watched the game, you would have known that. Now obviously, your argument is going to be, "Well, he should be able to make that throw accurately even while he's getting blown up by a LB." At least make THAT argument. Please. But don't be all up in this thread completely ignoring the fact that Campbell took a hit while he was releasing the ball.

To me, that play was neither a + nor a -. I'm happy that Jason found a receiver that was THAT wide open. But he didn't get it to him so I can't give him credit for a good play. It would have been a huge play for us...it's unfortunate that we couldn't make it. Also, I haven't verified this but there are people in this thread claiming that Rhinehart didn't block anybody on that play, and that the LB ran right past him. Again, I haven't verified it but that sounds like Rhinehart to me.

[TigerSkins]

Could it be you are analyzing 6 passes thrown by Campbell because that is all the passes he threw and 6 passes is a relatively small sample to get a read from?
I do not see how this is "making excuses" at all.



Thanks for taking the time to dissect those "passes" OM.

But, I think the fact that we are analyzing six passes thrown Campbell tells me that we are protecting and making excuses for Campbell....again.

That pass to Hagan is a prime example. People are saying he "should have caught it" but as the snap shot shows there was not a defender within five yards of him and JC could've thrown a much more catchable ball.

We all would like to see JC succeed because he is our QB, but I still haven't seen anything that would suggest he's turning the corner. Like I said, the fact that we are (over)analysing his every pass speaks volume as to where the 'skins stand at the QB position.


BTW. Whomever rated this thread a one star? You're a loser. There's some good discussion going on and this coming from someone that doesn't always agree with OM.

[bobzmuda]

Finally got a chance to see the game.

Jason was very good. Todd was solid. Colt didn't have much of a chance because of the protection issues, but you could tell he got rattled a little bit.

[RiggosMohawk]

Saw the replay on NFLN yesterday. I'd say Jason's motion, in this game, was noticeably faster in this game when compared to last year. Pass #2 to Cooley - much less windup, he had the ball ready to come out quick. I did like the ARE throw, even if it's too low. That is a dangerous ball to have come out too high. I'm completely amazed he threw to Hagans on the busted play. He would not have even attempted that throw last season - I have no complaints that it was incomplete.

Hope he continues to show improvement in the areas I'm looking for next week too.

[apiah]

Let me take a second to clarify something to all the people bashing Jason for the throw to Hagans:

HE WAS GETTING TRUCKED AS HE RELEASED THE BALL.

If you guys watched the game, you would have known that. Now obviously, your argument is going to be, "Well, he should be able to make that throw accurately even while he's getting blown up by a LB." At least make THAT argument. Please. But don't be all up in this thread completely ignoring the fact that Campbell took a hit while he was releasing the ball.

To me, that play was neither a + nor a -. I'm happy that Jason found a receiver that was THAT wide open. But he didn't get it to him so I can't give him credit for a good play. It would have been a huge play for us...it's unfortunate that we couldn't make it. Also, I haven't verified this but there are people in this thread claiming that Rhinehart didn't block anybody on that play, and that the LB ran right past him. Again, I haven't verified it but that sounds like Rhinehart to me.

Jesus Thankyou..someone understands. If ppl dont see any improvement in campbell from last year then i dont know what else you want from him. Hes getting the ball out quicker, hes looking downfield, and if his protection was better he would have had more oppurtunites to make more plays.

[SirClintonPortis]

Jason is on the record complimenting Rhinehart for giving him extra time to even make the throw to Hagans. Redskins Insider has the quote. The presser vid on Redskins.com should have it too, although I haven't seen it yet.

[paloffs]

I would like to see high def pictures of the throw to Hagans. I have these... but they're not the best indicators.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3130/campbellsrelease.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8595/campbellsrelease2.png

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7859/89225173.png

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5609/20652949.png

In the last picture, there's actually a blur somewhere which is the ball. I don't think you can see the blur in the picture but you can assume that this is the picture after Campbell got rid of the ball.

Watching the video several times in live speed, I thought Campbell got rid of the ball just before Lewis hit him. Also, the ball was a hard spiral - there wasn't much air under it. If he had gotten hit, I'd think the trajectory would've been messed up but it looked like a pretty pass to me (just too high).

[eljeasel]

the thing about that pass i think people are missing are 2 fold.

1. campbell stepped up in the pocket. I dont think Ive seen that since early last year. Good to see him doing that.

2. He had a pocket to step up into. Again, I didnt see that consistently enough last year

Sucks it wasnt a completion but Im not sure he even gets that ball out last year for those 2 reasons (plus his stroke looks quicker actually)

[TheLongshot]

Jason did not see Hagans wide open all alone on the sideline until he "robotically" clicked hrough his progesssions and had pulled the ball down ... it was too late when he threw a "line drive" to Hagans and of course was inaccurate with no touch. Sanchez would have seen the whole field immediately and gone to Hagans after a l'il headfake as he did aginst the Rams with perfect touch. I guess my point is that you can tell a franchise QB immediately. After 4 years Campbell is still struggling ... time to give up the ghost.

Uh, no. Hagans was open because the play was breaking down and it looked like his defender abandoned his responsibility. That's probably because Campbell was drifting to his right and it looked like he might run. I doubt Hagans was open before then.

[bobzmuda]

Jason did not see Hagans wide open all alone on the sideline until he "robotically" clicked hrough his progesssions and had pulled the ball down ... it was too late when he threw a "line drive" to Hagans and of course was inaccurate with no touch. Sanchez would have seen the whole field immediately and gone to Hagans after a l'il headfake as he did aginst the Rams with perfect touch. I guess my point is that you can tell a franchise QB immediately. After 4 years Campbell is still struggling ... time to give up the ghost.

So is the goal of the Redskins to get a franchise QB? Or is it to win?

I contend Campbell is good enough to win with (see Eli, Jake Delhomme, etc.), but not good enough to be in that top tier (Peyton, Brady, Brees).

People think you can easily upgrade a guy like Eli or Delhomme, but you really can't.

Also you're wrong about knowing a franchise QB immediately. In some cases, guys look good right off the bat, but many other times they struggle for a few years (e.g. Steve Young, Brees, etc.).

[apiah]

Jason did not see Hagans wide open all alone on the sideline until he "robotically" clicked hrough his progesssions and had pulled the ball down ... it was too late when he threw a "line drive" to Hagans and of course was inaccurate with no touch. Sanchez would have seen the whole field immediately and gone to Hagans after a l'il headfake as he did aginst the Rams with perfect touch. I guess my point is that you can tell a franchise QB immediately. After 4 years Campbell is still struggling ... time to give up the ghost.

YEah so Sachez makes 1 nice deep pass and all of a sudden he can always automatically see the whole field. Yeh hes the next peyton manning alright:doh:
We both dont know if hagans was open immediately or if it took him awhile so u can not make that comment. Based on what i saw before campbell was quick with his throws and with a lil running help that drive would have been alot more sucessful. Jeesh stop being a campbell hater

[CooleyKnight]

Anyway, I'm not going to blame Campbell all on the misread yet. As mentioned before, his quote from radio is highly disturbing in that somebody was telling him to not look Hagans' way.


Most likely the play was designed to pick up only the yardage needed to get the first down. On 3rd and 6 this is usually a quick throw right as recievers come out of their break. Sending someone to the sideline or deep on these plays (as Hagans was) can be a design to draw extra defenders away from the target reciever. If he was told not to look Hagans way, perhaps it was because he was intended to be a decoy on the play (I think we had 3 WR and a TE). Zorn was telling him to get the ball out quicker to the routes designed to pickup the first.

Even with the delayed pressure, I think JC should have made a better throw and Hagans a catch as it was.

[SkinsFTW]

I think that for a QB that we aren't even sure we want past this season he should have been given a lot more than 6 plays. Even Tom Brady played a half. What does he have to prove?

Or does more reps in practice games not help? Maybe it doesn't considering games 9-16 last year didn't seem to help either. He only got worse as the season progressed. Probably not a good sign.

[littleskins]

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.redskins.com/media/2009/08/hagans.jpg

I'd say he shoulda had that.



He definitly should have had that one, and a couple of others. IMO he did not have a good game at all.

[mistertim]

He definitly should have had that one, and a couple of others. IMO he did not have a good game at all.

I'm not sure about "should", but I would definitely say "could". Also, remember that he is a little WR. I think he is like 5'9. Had that been Kelly or Thomas it would have been an easy catch, especially for Kelly.

[littleskins]

I would like to see high def pictures of the throw to Hagans. I have these... but they're not the best indicators.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3130/campbellsrelease.png

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8595/campbellsrelease2.png

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7859/89225173.png

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5609/20652949.png

In the last picture, there's actually a blur somewhere which is the ball. I don't think you can see the blur in the picture but you can assume that this is the picture after Campbell got rid of the ball.

Watching the video several times in live speed, I thought Campbell got rid of the ball just before Lewis hit him. Also, the ball was a hard spiral - there wasn't much air under it. If he had gotten hit, I'd think the trajectory would've been messed up but it looked like a pretty pass to me (just too high).


The first picture shows him staanding in there knowing he's about to get hit and delivering a pass. it was a bit high but catchable.

[littleskins]

I'm not sure about "should", but I would definitely say "could". Also, remember that he is a little WR. I think he is like 5'9. Had that been Kelly or Thomas it would have been an easy catch, especially for Kelly.


I will concure. If that had of been Kelly the story would have been different. That guy caught everything in his path. That over the middle catch from TC, which wasn't the throw in the world, was awesome.

[CampbellIsAwesome]

The difference b/w Campbell and better QBs is when they have a WR open like Hagans was they touch it to him enabling a big play. Campbell Never does... Repeatedly, you will see Campbell late with wide open WRs only to have that WR covered up by time the ball gets there or make the catch and get nowhere.(more often than not) Always indecisive, always late, never in stride unless its across the middle which coincides with where his eyes always are. He's slow and deliberate, and defenders hone in on it all the time and blast our QB, WRs, TEs, & RBs or force checkdowns. He's better than poor because he'll check it down but thats about the most I can say for him at this point in his career.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGVLK0c6gE

[Major Harris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGVLK0c6gE
how many of those can you pull out?

[CampbellIsAwesome]

Jason did not see Hagans wide open all alone on the sideline until he "robotically" clicked hrough his progesssions and had pulled the ball down ... it was too late when he threw a "line drive" to Hagans and of course was inaccurate with no touch. Sanchez would have seen the whole field immediately and gone to Hagans after a l'il headfake as he did aginst the Rams with perfect touch. I guess my point is that you can tell a franchise QB immediately. After 4 years Campbell is still struggling ... time to give up the ghost.

I bet the Saints are happy that some San Diego coaches/owner/fans think like you. Ironically enough Brees had his breakout year as his 3rd year as the starter (Campbell's upcoming year).

P.S. Campbell has only played 3 years (really 2 and 1/2), not 4.

[CampbellIsAwesome]

how many of those can you pull out?

How many more times are Campbell haters going to spew out blatant falsehoods?

[wvtbred]

He definitly should have had that one, and a couple of others. IMO he did not have a good game at all.

Fingers tips even with gloves on a ball that high is the QB's fault catch or no catch. IF he comes down with it then it's all WR gravy period.

[MrJL]

The first picture shows him staanding in there knowing he's about to get hit and delivering a pass. it was a bit high but catchable.


Of course with a linebacker in his face he might have had to throw it high.

[BIGOLEBOB]

OM great analysis and read. Thanks for that.

My analysis is that this is a perfect reason we need to cut Hagans and let Marco make the squad along with Kelly. Get these 6'4 receivers on the field because Campbell is NOT accurate. He is going to throw high and wide at times and our chances at success will INCREASE as our receivers height and jumping ability increases.

Its not all about speed its about being able to REACH the ball. Campbell is notorius for missing the easy throw or not finding the wide open man. That has to stop. Zorn either needs to find another QB or help the one he is going with. Help him by ditching some of these shorter receivers and putting in the height. Marco has already shown ability in practice to hang on to the ball and Kelly is, well if he's healthy, he great. Have at least ONE 6'3 receiver on the field at all times and our receptions will go up.

Devin Thomas? The jury is still out on this guy, as far as I am concerned.

[thesubmittedone]

Of course with a linebacker in his face he might have had to throw it high.

lol, I was waiting for this comment.

Anyone who knows ANYTHING about QB play understands that in order to get the ball "down" where it doesn't sail on you, you've got to be able to step into the throw. Campbell couldn't there, and it was even mentioned by Theismann. That's why it was high.

That being said, if Campbell had a bit more awareness of the offense, he may have known that Hagans would be open earlier... although there is no way of knowing it without the coaches telling us the play and what defense was ran by our opponent. That's why I'm going to stick with what Campbell said... that Hagans wasn't even in the progressions for that specific play. If that's the case, than good job for Campbell sticking in there and finding someone.

I can't believe we're actually debating this for this long! :doh::doh:

:hysterical: It's actually hilarious when you stand back and think about it for a second.

[SirClintonPortis]

I wonder how it feels like to try to throw a football with Ray Lewis coming at you.

[leesburgvaskinsfan]

Good analysis Om. Thanks!

I too am amazed at the seven pages of the back and forth on the six pass plays and specifically the Hagans pass. Given the small smaple size, I'm comfortable with our o-line and JC's play the other night. I'm hoping we get more to see against the Steelers. I like how Zorn called out our youngsters. Our backups looked bad.

Hail!

[mistertim]

I wonder how it feels like to try to throw a football with Ray Lewis coming at you.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/5/5886903_7db0777797.jpg?v=0

[[[ghost]]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pGVLK0c6gE

...that actually wasn't in stride. Moss slowed down to catch that.

It's a foolish argument as it is, but that doesn't help your point.

[CampbellIsAwesome]

];6639524']...that actually wasn't in stride. Moss slowed down to catch that.

It's a foolish argument as it is, but that doesn't help your point.

Was Moss standing still? No

Did Moss stop running? No

Was Moss running down field and had to make a minor adjustment to his speed in order to catch the ball? Yes

If you want to deem any change in receiver speed as not "in stride", then by all means find ANY video of any receiver who catches a pass while maintaining the EXACT same speed both before, during, and after the catch. And when you find that video I want to know exactly what piece of equipment you used to measure the receiver's speed and the uncertainty associated with that piece of equipment.

[mnb123]

Arguing over one preseason play is pretty funny.

But as a whole, Campbell looked like the same Campbell we have always had, and he is going to look like Campbell next game as well. There has been no dramatic improvement in his play since we drafted him. He is what he is.

[Califan007]

Watching the video several times in live speed, I thought Campbell got rid of the ball just before Lewis hit him. Also, the ball was a hard spiral - there wasn't much air under it. If he had gotten hit, I'd think the trajectory would've been messed up but it looked like a pretty pass to me (just too high).

I think the issue is more whether or not Campbell was able to step up into the pocket when releasing the ball, not just when the ball was released. Having a LB charging into both you and any immediate space right in front of you screws up your throwing mechanics, regardless of when the ball gets released. Some QBs can make some damn good throws sometimes even in sutiations where they can't step into their throws. But it's pretty much understandable when they do not.

[Califan007]

It's wild, but we have been yelling from the mountain tops for years around here that we need DLine pressure on opposing QBs precisely so that we could disrupt throws like what happened to Campbell last night. You'd think we'd immediately as Skins fans understand the effect that good pressure has on a QB lol...

Trust me, if that were Haynesworth or Orakpo getting into a QB's space and face right before throwing and the pass attempt ended in the same result, we'd ALL be praising AH or Orakpo and giving them ALL the credit for disrupsting what should have been a completion. "THAT'S what QB pressure does, Vinny!!!" would be repeated on every thread lol....but when it's Campbell, we get 6+ pages of nitpicking.

[paloffs]

I think the issue is more whether or not Campbell was able to step up into the pocket when releasing the ball, not just when the ball was released. Having a LB charging into both you and any immediate space right in front of you screws up your throwing mechanics, regardless of when the ball gets released. Some QBs can make some damn good throws sometimes even in sutiations where they can't step into their throws. But it's pretty much understandable when they do not.
Oh, ok. I thought some were saying that Campbell was hit as he threw, which I don't believe to be the case. Regadless, it's only one play. Haha

[Major Harris]

How many more times are Campbell haters going to spew out blatant falsehoods?
probably a lot.

but i'm not one of them, at least not now. i'm not sold on campbell, far from it. matter of fact, i wouldn't even say i'm a jc fan outside of the fact he plays for the 'skins and i want him to shine.

but if you read thru, i'm actually defending him in this thread. i just thought it funny that someone would think 1 throw would vindicate him.

tell you what, let a jc hater make a youtube video of all his errant throws. you make one of all his good throws. see which one is longer. it'd be like john holmes vs. zoony.

[Skinsinparadise]

Help him by ditching some of these shorter receivers and putting in the height. Marco has already shown ability in practice to hang on to the ball and Kelly is, well if he's healthy, he great. Have at least ONE 6'3 receiver on the field at all times and our receptions will go up.

Devin Thomas? The jury is still out on this guy, as far as I am concerned.

It sound simplistic but I wonder about that myself. I have watched a lot of Eli Manning who I don't find particularly accurate but with Burress in there he didn't have to be, he can lob the ball up and throw some ugly balls at times but Burress would get the ball -- be interesting to see how Eli does a full season without him. Eli didn't do so hot if I recall towards the end of the season when Burress was gone. And Eli has more going for him in that the Giants arguably have the best O line in the NFL.

[KingGibbs]

The thing that sticks in my mind in regards to Campbell is the '07 season. Our offense was stagnant with him in there. When he was injured Collins came in and looked like he had been playing all year. He might not have been lights out, but he was very efficient with the same players that Campbell had. Not to mention that Collins hadn't started a game in TEN years!

Here it is two years later and we're still having the same Campbell discussions. Hmmmmmm.....

[MustangSteve]

Very good breakdown OM, and what I noticed the most was how we moved the ball without our 2 most dangerous players on the field, Moss and Portis. I can't wait untill the 3rd preseason game so we can see much more of our starting offense. It will be a great test against the Pats, as well as for our defense against Brady and that scoring machine.

[Redshu]

The OM is awesome. I saw some good things there from the first unit, but my primary concern is depth. Most of the points scored were done so after the first units were out.

[ciresolstice]

Good analysis, I appreciate the read! I don't think a whole lot can be made from 6 throws and two series in a pre season game....

With that said, I like Campbell and want him to succeed, blah blah it's been said he has the tools, (Size, arm, mobile enough, can make the throws) Reading defenses/going through progressions is getting better, but accuracy is still an issue.

Just watching backups in other NFL pre season games I see balls thrown more in stride, or a little in front of the receiver, to the correct shoulder etc. Campbell does a nice job sometimes and gets it there but the accuracy usually stops a good play from being a great play where the receiver could have RAC, or even a TD in some spots..but the ball is low, high, or behind the receiver.

[wvtbred]

The thing that sticks in my mind in regards to Campbell is the '07 season. Our offense was stagnant with him in there. When he was injured Collins came in and looked like he had been playing all year. He might not have been lights out, but he was very efficient with the same players that Campbell had. Not to mention that Collins hadn't started a game in TEN years!

Here it is two years later and we're still having the same Campbell discussions. Hmmmmmm.....


The biggest thing about that is the rest of the team looked energized from the first snap which I say is very telling. So telling up until then I had supported JC but when the change happened the team changed with it and so did I.

We have not seen another QB with the first team since the end of that season and that is wrong. Todd deserved a chance in the beginning of '08 and was denied it which really pissed me off and I am still carrying that chip on my shoulder with Jason taking the brunt of my anger.

[CampbellIsAwesome]

probably a lot.

but i'm not one of them, at least not now. i'm not sold on campbell, far from it. matter of fact, i wouldn't even say i'm a jc fan outside of the fact he plays for the 'skins and i want him to shine.

but if you read thru, i'm actually defending him in this thread. i just thought it funny that someone would think 1 throw would vindicate him.

tell you what, let a jc hater make a youtube video of all his errant throws. you make one of all his good throws. see which one is longer. it'd be like john holmes vs. zoony.

The person I replied too said Campbell has NEVER hit a receiver in stride down the field. The fact that Campbell has done it even once discredits the absurd claim. Hence why I only posted one video.

[Mooka]

The person I replied too said Campbell has NEVER hit a receiver in stride down the field. The fact that Campbell has done it even once discredits the absurd claim. Hence why I only posted one video. You do realize that the long throw to Santana against the Saints didn't really hit him in stride right? :)

[BIGOLEBOB]

It sound simplistic but I wonder about that myself. I have watched a lot of Eli Manning who I don't find particularly accurate but with Burress in there he didn't have to be, he can lob the ball up and throw some ugly balls at times but Burress would get the ball -- be interesting to see how Eli does a full season without him. Eli didn't do so hot if I recall towards the end of the season when Burress was gone. And Eli has more going for him in that the Giants arguably have the best O line in the NFL.

what I REALLY don't understand is this "entitlement program" the A.R.E. is locked into. Seems like Zorn cannot see what most of us already have and that is that A.R.E. is a very average receiver and most certainly NOT a playmaker. Considering his playing time he scores very little. Considering how many times he touches the ball per game or gets thrown to he scores very very little, and that included punt returns.

So Coach Zorn, whats the problem with letting A.R.E be the 3rd receiver and trying to find spots for him when you can, but starting Kelly or Marco on every play. You would have a bigger target for Campbell which Jason needs desperately, and you would have a bigger more physical guy for blocking on run plays.

Coach, just tell me the ADVANAGE to having A.R.E. in on every pass play because honestly I can't think of one. He seems like he's very cocky and sure of himself and brags about his SB rings but he really has NEVER done anything in his career to warrant being a starting receiver. Throwing a TD pass in the SB was special for him but it doesn't do anything for the Washington Redskins. However, catching 4-5 balls per game would be special and so far A.R.E. has not been that kind of receiver.

MARKO OR KELLY pleeeeeeze! Every play

[LaxBuddy21]

Its nice to read that Im not the only one who was actually encouraged by JC's play. I posted that in the good things about the game thread and it just got completely ignored...lol I was impressed by the speed at which is was going through his progressions compared to last year. I dont feel like he is mentally football retarded as much this year. I think the second year in the offense is helping him plus being a contract year. Hopefully we will see continued success!

[sKiNfOrLiFe!!]

Hagans should have caught that pass, it hit his hands, no excuse

Game might have been different if he did!

Campbell did show improvement, reason Hagans was open was because Ed Reed bit on Jason looking right

[Taylor 36]

Um, the wide open guy deep down the field is always the best play unless there's someone even more open further down the field. And height is supposed to be an advantage over shorter defenders and catching balls in traffic... It's not supposed to be something you need when you're wide open.
:applause: Thank you. JC's tendency to over throw receivers doesn't seem to correlate to their height. If all of our receivers were a foot taller, JC would just throw the balls a foot higher, negating the height of the receiver making any difference.

[Passizle]

wvt's posts are garbage...

Fixed that for you. :)

[SirClintonPortis]

what I REALLY don't understand is this "entitlement program" the A.R.E. is locked into. Seems like Zorn cannot see what most of us already have and that is that A.R.E. is a very average receiver and most certainly NOT a playmaker. Considering his playing time he scores very little. Considering how many times he touches the ball per game or gets thrown to he scores very very little, and that included punt returns.

So Coach Zorn, whats the problem with letting A.R.E be the 3rd receiver and trying to find spots for him when you can, but starting Kelly or Marco on every play. You would have a bigger target for Campbell which Jason needs desperately, and you would have a bigger more physical guy for blocking on run plays.

Coach, just tell me the ADVANAGE to having A.R.E. in on every pass play because honestly I can't think of one. He seems like he's very cocky and sure of himself and brags about his SB rings but he really has NEVER done anything in his career to warrant being a starting receiver. Throwing a TD pass in the SB was special for him but it doesn't do anything for the Washington Redskins. However, catching 4-5 balls per game would be special and so far A.R.E. has not been that kind of receiver.

MARKO OR KELLY pleeeeeeze! Every playIt's called earning it. Eddie Royal still have to beat Brandon Stokley for that job in Denver. He wasn't handed the keys or lucked out due to injuries(DeSean Jackson)

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

heres a simple yes or no question:

did jason campbell impress anybody last thursday?

[Passizle]

Jason did not see Hagans wide open all alone on the sideline until he "robotically" clicked hrough his progesssions and had pulled the ball down ... it was too late when he threw a "line drive" to Hagans and of course was inaccurate with no touch. Sanchez would have seen the whole field immediately and gone to Hagans after a l'il headfake as he did aginst the Rams with perfect touch. I guess my point is that you can tell a franchise QB immediately. After 4 years Campbell is still struggling ... time to give up the ghost.
Never happy huh?:(

1. JC was playing against the first string Ravens without all the 1st string offense.
2. JC was hit on the throw, causing it to sail high. That happens. Regardless, Hagan's should have come down with that ball. He also could have adjusted a little closer to the sideline... that way he would not have had to jump so high. Dont pretend the ball was uncatchable to suit your weak argument.
3. JC did exaxtly what you always ***** about him not doing. He read through his progressions, and went deep.
4. Sanchez was playing against the stellar and legendary St. Louis defense and did not take a hit on the play.

Stop looking through your hate goggle's for a little while and you might... I repeat, might be able to see things with just a touch more objectivity.

[TheLongshot]

what I REALLY don't understand is this "entitlement program" the A.R.E. is locked into. Seems like Zorn cannot see what most of us already have and that is that A.R.E. is a very average receiver and most certainly NOT a playmaker. Considering his playing time he scores very little. Considering how many times he touches the ball per game or gets thrown to he scores very very little, and that included punt returns.

I think ARE will be better at his natural position: in the slot. To be honest, since Lloyd was declared a disappointment late in the 2006 season, ARE has had to fill a role he really wasn't well suited for. I think he will thrive going agianst the #3 corner and the options that being in the slot gives a receiver.


So Coach Zorn, whats the problem with letting A.R.E be the 3rd receiver and trying to find spots for him when you can, but starting Kelly or Marco on every play. You would have a bigger target for Campbell which Jason needs desperately, and you would have a bigger more physical guy for blocking on run plays.

I think he really wants to, but he wants a guy there who doesn't actively hurt the team when he's on the field. That was the problem with Thomas last year, with him not knowing what routes he was supposed to run, with the pass interference penalties, the holding penalties, etc. That's why ARE still was the default #2: because he wouldn't screw up.

[TheLongshot]

heres a simple yes or no question:

did jason campbell impress anybody last thursday?

Did he really have much of an opportunity to impress with the players on the field and the playcalling?

Was he impressive? No. But he wasn't disappointing either.

[Passizle]

Fingers tips even with gloves on a ball that high is the QB's fault catch or no catch. IF he comes down with it then it's all WR gravy period.
So let me get this right. I he misses it, its the QB fault, but if he catches it, its all because of the WR skill. With that logic, there are no QB's that can meet your high expectations.

[RenegadeTK]

great analysis. hopefully this calms some folk down

[Passizle]

heres a simple yes or no question:

did jason campbell impress anybody last thursday?
What do you mean by "impress"? Was I blown away? No. I did like that I saw his mechanics to be improved. I liked that his reads were faster. I like that he read a blitz correctly, and got his protection scheme correct... too bad Cooley whiffed the block. But he was only in there for two series. Really too short to judge. Would like to see at least a quarter. But behind JC...
Collins and Brennan looked like crap IMO. They looked lost and confused out there. Brennan first pay was great, and I thought we were in for some excitement. Zilch after that thogh.
That being said, we still scored 0 points no matter who was out there... which is concerning. But its preseason and I would rather have players evaluated than have my ego stroked.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Did he really have much of an opportunity to impress with the players on the field and the playcalling?

Was he impressive? No. But he wasn't disappointing either.

good answer.



What do you mean by "impress"? Was I blown away? No. I did like that I saw his mechanics to be improved. I liked that his reads were faster. I like that he read a blitz correctly, and got his protection scheme correct... too bad Cooley whiffed the block.
Collins and Brennan looked like crap IMO.
That being said, we still scored 0 points no matter who was out there... which is concerning. But its preseason and I would rather have players evaluated than have my ego stroked.


typical answer.


anyone see the difference? LOL

[Passizle]

good answer.





typical answer.


anyone see the difference? LOL
In your opinion. Which does not count for much these days, does it? Dont answer that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

In your opinion. Which does not count for much these days, does it? Dont answer that.


lol. longshot, a respected and smart poster answered the question like i asked. no dodging or anything lame.

the first thing you posted was "what do you mean by impress?". which is what i expected out of you.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

I am watching the game again right now and Jason looks like Jason of late last year, no difference. Todd looked really good overall and I like the way the oline played early

You guys really want to win or waste a year? If you do Jason can't be the starter.

Too many variables in this equation.

First of all, Todd has not looked good as his arm strength has declined due to age factor. Secondly, he has played against the second ham-strings making his performances inconclusive. Third, he is just not good and do not even bring up the 2007 season like some of these other jokers on here.

[RandyHolt]

He muscled that throw out after finding Hagans... late. He may not have been open until late. whatever. But its a perfect example of how a tall WR can be a big factor. We like our tiny short WR's. Dont complain when a man of Jason's size and stature guns a ball through a short WR's tiny hands, once again. This has been going on for years now. Moss likes to catch in the breadbasket more often than not. His drops are the high hard pass over his head. Grade Jason when he has someone anyone over 6 foot tall, and then we can start to grade him proper. That one play, it was a tad overthrown. Jason needs to throw it low to short receivers, something you cannot do on the short passes over the line. Zorn has yet to understand this.

[Passizle]

lol. longshot, a respected and smart poster answered the question like i asked. no dodging or anything lame.

the first thing you posted was "what do you mean by impress?". which is what i expected out of you.
And you know the reason I answered it like that is becasue you like to play on definitions alot.
Either way, if you read my post thouroughly, I stated there was not enough to go on really. Too smalll a sample.

[wvtbred]

So let me get this right. I he misses it, its the QB fault, but if he catches it, its all because of the WR skill. With that logic, there are no QB's that can meet your high expectations.

With a pass that far off it's mark to a WIDE OPEN receiver? Yes if he comes down with that ball it's 99% him. He drops it after the Qb hits him in the numbers is 100% his fault.

[Passizle]

With a pass that far off it's mark to a WIDE OPEN receiver? Yes if he comes down with that ball it's 99% him. He drops it after the Qb hits him in the numbers is 100% his fault.
While the pass sailed high, it was not THAT ar off the mark. Point is, it was catchable. Period. Lets not forget about the rest of Hagans showing. How many other passes did he drop?

[wvtbred]

While the pass sailed high, it was not THAT ar off the mark. Point is, it was catchable. Period. Lets not forget about the rest of Hagans showing. How many other passes did he drop?

He barely got his fingertips on it look at the pictures. It isn't that easy, easy to say but not easy to be in those shoes.

How about the pass that Jason dumped into front of ARE (in double coverage) while rolling out right to elude a rush? I would must rather see him toss that out of bounds then risking a tip or other issue.

[TheLongshot]

And you know the reason I answered it like that is becasue you like to play on definitions alot.
Either way, if you read my post thouroughly, I stated there was not enough to go on really. Too smalll a sample.

Which basically I said with fewer words. Sometimes that's best to not bait the trolls.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Which basically I said with fewer words. Sometimes that's best to not bait the trolls.


well at least you both answered "no" so maybe were getting somewhere? lol

[Passizle]

well at least you both answered "no" so maybe were getting somewhere? lol
Well... to be honest, I expect BIG things from JC this year. If he does not deliver, then show him the door.
But again, like last year... and the year before, he is making improvments. While his play was not "impressive", he looked like a "mature" QB back there in what little we saw of him.
A better test will be against the Steelers. I am hoping he can perform well. Its going to be a tough test and a great measure to see if he can shake that beating he took last year, and make them pay for being so aggressive.

[wvtbred]

Well... to be honest, I expect BIG things from JC this year. If he does not deliver, then show him the door.
But again, like last year... and the year before, he is making improvments. While his play was not "impressive", he looked like a "mature" QB back there in what little we saw of him.

Just like he did last year especially the last 8 games of the season. You really want to waste another career year of CP, Sellers, Fletcher, Samuels etc? Is it worth it?

[Passizle]

Just like he did last year especially the last 8 games of the season. You really want to waste another career year of CP, Sellers, Fletcher, Samuels etc? Is it worth it?
Yes. Best bet we have on the team as far as QB goes. Colt looks exciting, but is clealry not ready fr prime time. Collins just looked lost out there IMO. Hapy feet and holding the ball too long stood out clearly for me. That wont fly when the **** hits the fan.

[TheLongshot]

Well... to be honest, I expect BIG things from JC this year. If he does not deliver, then show him the door.
But again, like last year... and the year before, he is making improvments. While his play was not "impressive", he looked like a "mature" QB back there in what little we saw of him.
A better test will be against the Steelers. I am hoping he can perform well. Its going to be a tough test and a great measure to see if he can shake that beating he took last year, and make them pay for being so aggressive.

My expectations are a bit more modest. I'm not expecting him to lead the league in passing or make the pro bowl, but if he can manage the game well and give us consistancy on offense, I'll be quite happy.


Just like he did last year especially the last 8 games of the season. You really want to waste another career year of CP, Sellers, Fletcher, Samuels etc? Is it worth it?

I think Passizle has it right: Campbell is the guy on the roster with the best chance to win this year. Colt isn't ready and I don't trust Collins to hold up over a full season.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

My expectations are a bit more modest. I'm not expecting him to lead the league in passing or make the pro bowl, but if he can manage the game well and give us consistancy on offense, I'll be quite happy.


this is what is so staggering, being content with game managing out of the most important position on the field. ill never understand that.

[wvtbred]

My expectations are a bit more modest. I'm not expecting him to lead the league in passing or make the pro bowl, but if he can manage the game well and give us consistancy on offense, I'll be quite happy.



I think Passizle has it right: Campbell is the guy on the roster with the best chance to win this year. Colt isn't ready and I don't trust Collins to hold up over a full season.

If it was down to one game who would be better to start Jason or Todd?

[Passizle]

My expectations are a bit more modest. I'm not expecting him to lead the league in passing or make the pro bowl, but if he can manage the game well and give us consistancy on offense, I'll be quite happy.



I think Passizle has it right: Campbell is the guy on the roster with the best chance to win this year. Colt isn't ready and I don't trust Collins to hold up over a full season.
Neither are mine, but for a guy in his 5th year, I expect at least 3500 yards, 20+ TD's with 10 or less INT's. I want to see a commander in the huddle and a guy who can lead a game winning drive with 2:00 minutes left in the fourth. I dont care if he gets the win... just get us in range of our crappy kicker.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Neither are mine, but for a guy in his 5th year, I expect at least 3500 yards, 20+ TD's with 10 or less INT's. I want to see a commander in the huddle and a guy who can lead a game winning drive with 2:00 minutes left in the fourth. I dont care if he gets the win... just get us in range of our crappy kicker.


now passizle, another honest question:

do you HOPE thats what campbell can do (because i do)?

or

do you ACTUALLY THINK thats what campbell can do (because i dont)

[Passizle]

If it was down to one game who would be better to start Jason or Todd?
Jason. Todd looked good for 4 games of his entire career and was a direct beneficiary of the system he played in for a decade. If you saw him in TC the past two years you would not be toting the Todd Collins pole (no pun intended)

[wvtbred]

Jason. Todd looked good for 4 games of his entire career and was a direct beneficiary of the system he played in for a decade. If you saw him in TC the past two years you would not be toting the Todd Collins pole (no pun intended)


You would lose then and how can you say that about Todd if you haven't seen him in a game since 2007? Preseason doesn't count right?

[Passizle]

now passizle, another honest question:

do you HOPE thats what campbell can do (because i do)?

or

do you ACTUALLY THINK thats what campbell can do (because i dont)
I hope AND I think he can. Realistically. He's not a guy you draft for your fantasy team, thats for sure. But he has the tools and drive to succeed. With the right support (which I thinks he has from Zorn) and some stability, I REALLY think he can surprise ALOT of people.
BUT... if he fails, I will feel very comfortable with the fact that he got his shot.

[Passizle]

You would lose then and how can you say that about Todd if you haven't seen him in a game since 2007? Preseason doesn't count right?
And how pray tell do youknow that? Psychic? Chicken bones? Tarot? Please share!
Becasue Todd has not been able to crack a starting lineup without an injury to the starting QB for ANY team since 1998. Do you REALLY think he has been just "overlooked" for that long?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I hope AND I think he can. Realistically. He's not a guy you draft for your fantasy team, thats for sure. But he has the tools and drive to succeed. With the right support (which I thinks he has from Zorn) and some stability, I REALLY think he can surprise ALOT of people.
BUT... if he fails, I will feel very comfortable with the fact that he got his shot.


well if hes gonna throw 20 TDs shouldnt he be a good fantasy QB? i hope youll be drafting him. :)

[Passizle]

well if hes gonna throw 20 TDs shouldnt he be a good fantasy QB? i hope youll be drafting him. :)
Not in the leagues I'm in. They are VERY competitive and VERY expensive. You NEED guys like Rivers, Brees, P. Manning, Brady... or some other phenom at some other positions. I really like Campbell, I do, but I will be the first to admit he does not blow his peers away. HOF? Nope... welll not likley at least. Playoffs? Yes. Ability to win the bog one? I think so.
He could be an interesting very late round sleeper. Depends on his cast during the year.

[wvtbred]

And how pray tell do youknow that? Psychic? Chicken bones? Tarot? Please share!
Becasue Todd has not been able to crack a starting lineup without an injury to the starting QB for ANY team since 1998. Do you REALLY think he has been just "overlooked" for that long?

We know what Jason can and can't do and I want plus we NEED more. Scoring average of 16.8, lifetime record of 16-20, 13 TD's in a 16 game year and no playoffs doesn't cut it, period.

It comes down to we can't do worse with Todd just like 2007.

[wvtbred]

Not in the leagues I'm in. They are VERY competitive and VERY expensive. You NEED guys like Rivers, Brees, P. Manning, Brady... or some other phenom at some other positions. I really like Campbell, I do, but I will be the first to admit he does not blow his peers away. HOF? Nope... welll not likley at least. Playoffs? Yes. Ability to win the bog one? I think so.
He could be an interesting very late round sleeper. Depends on his cast during the year.

OK where do you rank Jason in the whole league against other starters.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Not in the leagues I'm in. They are VERY competitive and VERY expensive. You NEED guys like Rivers, Brees, P. Manning, Brady... or some other phenom at some other positions. I really like Campbell, I do, but I will be the first to admit he does not blow his peers away. HOF? Nope... welll not likley at least. Playoffs? Yes. Ability to win the bog one? I think so.
He could be an interesting very late round sleeper. Depends on his cast during the year.


ah, you mean you need a really good quarterback? :)

and those are only 4 QBs, id have to assume youre in a 10 person league, and 20 TDs would be top 10 in the league, so im expecting to see him on your roster.

[Passizle]

We know what Jason can and can't do and I want plus we NEED more. Scoring average of 16.8, lifetime record of 16-20, 13 TD's in a 16 game year and no playoffs doesn't cut it, period.

It comes down to we can't do worse with Todd just like 2007.
I would agree with you completely IF JC threw TD's to himself. But this is really a team sport. Whle JC did not light the world on fire with his awesomeness, be glad we dont have Orton or Grossmnan.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I would agree with you completely IF JC threw TD's to himself. But this is really a team sport. Whle JC did not light the world on fire with his awesomeness, be glad we dont have Orton or Grossmnan.

grossman has at least gotten to a superbowl.

hes the perfect example of a mediocre QB that when everything else is top flight, can go deep into the playoffs.

hes exactly the reason we need to move on from campbell.

[Passizle]

ah, you mean you need a really good quarterback? :)

and those are only 4 QBs, id have to assume youre in a 10 person league, and 20 TDs would be top 10 in the league, so im expecting to see him on your roster.
12 team leagues. I guess 20 might cut it, but thats too close for me. I lke to dominate if possible. You know... going to bed with a 40 point lead on Sunday with no worries about MNF. :)
Anyways, I see the point your getting at. This team does not "need" a Brees or Cutler or Manning. Would it be nice? Sure. But I dont need a shiny new Ferrari and the upkeep costs that come with that to get to work everyday...

[Passizle]

grossman has at least gotten to a superbowl.

hes the perfect example of a mediocre QB that when everything else is top flight, can go deep into the playoffs.

hes exactly the reason we need to move on from campbell.
JC is no Grossman. He has never cost the team games. Not last year anyways... dont even try to make that comparison. JC is light years better than that guy...
Grossman lost the Superbowl single handedly.

[TheLongshot]

this is what is so staggering, being content with game managing out of the most important position on the field. ill never understand that.

And I'll never understand why being a "game manager" is an insult. I guess it is sexier to have a QB who is a playmaker, but that isn't required to win championships. Chad Pennington has been a game manager his whole career. Matt Ryan did well because he's a good game manager. I'd argue that Roethlesburger is more of a game manager than a play maker. Peyton Manning is probably the ultimate game manager, in that he calls his own plays.

[TheLongshot]

grossman has at least gotten to a superbowl.

hes the perfect example of a mediocre QB that when the defense is top flight, can go deep into the playoffs.

hes exactly the reason we need to move on from campbell.

Corrected that for you. They won a few games because of Grossman, but they mostly made the Superbowl because of their defense. I can say the same of the Steelers last year.

Grossman is probably the best example of the worst aspects of a gunslinger: one that hurts your team as much as helps them.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

12 team leagues. I guess 20 might cut it, but thats too close for me. I lke to dominate if possible. You know... going to bed with a 40 point lead on Sunday with no worries about MNF. :)
Anyways, I see the point your getting at. This team does not "need" a Brees or Cutler or Manning. Would it be nice? Sure. But I dont need a shiny new Ferrari and the upkeep costs that come with that to get to work everyday...


im glad you see what im getting at. you enjoy your "fantasy" team having a 40 point lead, wouldnt you enjoy your REDSKINS having a 40 point lead? getting a QB like the guys you mentioned would solve that for us from time to time. ironic you dont like cutting it close with your fantasy team but thats all the skins have ever done under campbell.

and plenty of guys drive ferraris to work. theyre called BALLERS!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Corrected that for you. They won a few games because of Grossman, but they mostly made the Superbowl because of their defense. I can say the same of the Steelers last year.


their running game that year was very good too. great running game, dominating defense, and mediocre QB = good overall team. but it wasnt enough when the game was on the line.

and about game managing, when i think of that term, i think of a guy who is only good enough not to lose. hes not a guy you can count on when you need him the most.

its the 4th quarter, you need a TD to win. do you feel more comfortable with jason campbell, or peyton manning? you know the answer. im not expecting us to find peyton manning part two, but something along those lines is not out of the question.

[wvtbred]

I would agree with you completely IF JC threw TD's to himself. But this is really a team sport. Whle JC did not light the world on fire with his awesomeness, be glad we dont have Orton or Grossmnan.

As others have said at least Grossman got to the big show. Your love of Jason has a much merit as your dislike of others, neither go with the facts.

I am sick and tired of wasting career games of great players waiting for him and can't wait until he is on the bench or in a different uni.

[Passizle]

As others have said at least Grossman got to the big show. Your love of Jason has a much merit as your dislike of others, neither go with the facts.

I am sick and tired of wasting career games of great players waiting for him and can't wait until he is on the bench or in a different uni.
WHen you type, it does not make a lot of sense. I dont dislike any QB out there.
And my Jason "love" is not "love". Its a faith in the person based in factual evidence to support it. I dont know how long you have been a fan, and I am tired of having mediocre seasons as well... but to build a perrenial winner tales patience. Having a rotating coaching and player carousel has not produced success. The ony thing the FO has suceeded at is learning how NOT to biuld a championship calibre team. It looks like they are learning... how about we give the guys on the team that same benefit.

[wvtbred]

WHen you type, it does not make a lot of sense. I dont dislike any QB out there.
And my Jason "love" is not "love". Its a faith in the person based in factual evidence to support it. I dont know how long you have been a fan, and I am tired of having mediocre seasons as well... but to build a perrenial winner tales patience. Having a rotating coaching and player carousel has not produced success. The ony thing the FO has suceeded at is learning how NOT to biuld a championship calibre team. It looks like they are learning... how about we give the guys on the team that same benefit.

Been a fan 48 years through the good and bad. Also went through all the years of being a Washington Senators fan loving my team that was always last until they were sold away from us so don't tell me I am not a fan. If I wasn't then I wouldn't care and therefore wouldn't waste my time with guys like you who seemed blinded by something. ALL I want is for our team to be it's best and it isn't with the current QB in place IMHO.

You aren't using the facts as you say you are, you can't be or else you wouldn't be backing Jason as the starting QB.

[RiggosMohawk]

I'd argue that Roethlesburger is more of a game manager than a play maker.

You're right on the money. For most of the game he's back there trying to not lose it. Then he threw a *perfect* pass to Santonio, who made a perfect catch, and he won another SB. I want a QB that makes those kind of plays. To be fair though... give BR 10 more tries to make that same throw, I doubt any of them are as good as his first one. But all that matters was that first one.

[TheLongshot]

their running game that year was very good too. great running game, dominating defense, and mediocre QB = good overall team. but it wasnt enough when the game was on the line.

It was a good running game, not great, and probably was so because Grossman could threaten the deep pass. As for why they lost, I could point to the three turnovers he had as probably the main reason, and a big reason for all of their losses that year.


and about game managing, when i think of that term, i think of a guy who is only good enough not to lose. hes not a guy you can count on when you need him the most.

I guess that's how many are conditioned to look at it, never mind that many QBs do win because they know how to manage the game. I'll add Tom Brady to that list.


its the 4th quarter, you need a TD to win. do you feel more comfortable with jason campbell, or peyton manning? you know the answer. im not expecting us to find peyton manning part two, but something along those lines is not out of the question.

As I said above, Peyton is probably the ultimate game manager. Campbell isn't close to that right now and may never be. That's fine tho, because there are many lesser QBs who have won championships.

[TheLongshot]

You're right on the money. For most of the game he's back there trying to not lose it. Then he threw a *perfect* pass to Santonio, who made a perfect catch, and he won another SB. I want a QB that makes those kind of plays. To be fair though... give BR 10 more tries to make that same throw, I doubt any of them are as good as his first one. But all that matters was that first one.

Roethlesburger was a mediocre QB for most of the year, but he made enough plays to have his team come up on the winning side. The SB is a good example of that, because he did nothing for most of the game until that last drive when he needed to step up and he did.

That's really what I look for in the QB, not that he's making plays all the time but makes plays when he needs to. I've seen Campbell make those type of plays in the past. The pass to Hagans is one of those that almost was one of those plays. Put a better (and taller) receiver there and we might be talking differently about Campbell. I've seen Campbell make those type of plays in the past.

[Passizle]

Been a fan 48 years through the good and bad. Also went through all the years of being a Washington Senators fan loving my team that was always last until they were sold away from us so don't tell me I am not a fan. If I wasn't then I wouldn't care and therefore wouldn't waste my time with guys like you who seemed blinded by something. ALL I want is for our team to be it's best and it isn't with the current QB in place IMHO.

You aren't using the facts as you say you are, you can't be or else you wouldn't be backing Jason as the starting QB.
You see... this post is a "classic" example of not maiking much sense. See the highlighted portions... one at a time and then read my rebuttle please...

I never questioned your fanhood. Ever.

Then please feel free to add me to your ignore list. I dont come here everyday in the hopes of engaging logical debate with wvtbred.

You can only use facts one way. Thats factually. Duh!:doh: Where we disagree is a point here IMHO, where you use your opinion and emotion for the team as "factual evidence" where as I use stats and research to backup any claim I make.

[wvtbred]

You see... this post is a "classic" example of not maiking much sense. See the highlighted portions... one at a time and then read my rebuttle please...

I never questioned your fanhood. Ever.

Then please feel free to add me to your ignore list. I dont come here everyday in the hopes of engaging logical debate with wvtbred.

You can only use facts one way. Thats factually. Duh!:doh: Where we disagree is a point here IMHO, where you use your opinion and emotion for the team as "factual evidence" where as I use stats and research to backup any claim I make.

...ignore you? but I enjoy our discussions SO much.

[TheItalianStallion]

I think it's funny that, if Kelly or Thomas had been the receiver who came open deep rather than Hagans, that this thread would be about half as long as it is.

As for JC, I've seen some good and some bad. Can't really say much at this point.

[pjfootballer]

One thing I will give Jason credit for. He looks quicker coming out/off center, like he knows where he needs to go. Shows his footwork is getting better.

[pjfootballer]

Never happy huh?:(

1. JC was playing against the first string Ravens without all the 1st string offense.


If he can't play against the Raven's first stringers, who's he supposed to play against? Should the Ravens throw out their 2nd string for him? Only Portis and Moss were missing in the starting lineup. Maybe you could include Randy Thomas, but he's seen better days. Not good to make excuses for the starting QB. I didn't think JC was great, but he wasn't terrible either.

Listen, I'm not a Campbell hater either. I like the guy. I have to support him as the starting QB of my team and in no way would I EVER want him to do bad. I never cared for Rypien as a QB either, but supported him and he won a SB. I think we can all agree that this is Jason's make or break year and so far after one game, I don't see it as very encouraging.

I don't need 40 points a game, 4 TD passes a game or 400 yards a game. By crap on a cracker, at least put up 24 points, 1-2 TD passes a game and 250 yards a game. If he did that, I would guarantee this team would be 12-4 easy. As long as he flouders, you'll hear this every game:

1) Hunter Smith set to punt for the Redskins

or

2) Suisham's attempt will be from 42 yards out.

[Mooka]

That wasn't really the Raven's first string defense either.

[redskins55]

I agreed with you, brother. I mentioned Cooley was an option, that's all. :)



We saw it differently, it seems. What I saw was Cooley about a half second from coming out of his break toward the sideline when JC was ready to throw. Instead of giving him that extra half second (or throwing to the spot and trusting Cooley would turn in time), Jason pulled it down, started drifting back toward the LOS and looking elsewhere. To me it looked impatient and probably a mistake given the good protection. He had plenty of time to wait on Cooley for what would likely have been a routine first down pass.

Thanks for the kind words, my friend ... and like anything else, this shows how easy it is for two people to look at the same exact situation and read it very differently. Let's just hope however Zorn reads it will result in some good teaching to the key participant(s) in question.

I certainly agree with your assessment about Zorn and our players. I think a big part to this season will be our player's ability to trust Zorn and Zorn's ability to communicate effectively to our players. I appreciate the respectful reply.

[redskins55]

OM great analysis and read. Thanks for that.

My analysis is that this is a perfect reason we need to cut Hagans and let Marco make the squad along with Kelly. Get these 6'4 receivers on the field because Campbell is NOT accurate. He is going to throw high and wide at times and our chances at success will INCREASE as our receivers height and jumping ability increases.

Its not all about speed its about being able to REACH the ball. Campbell is notorius for missing the easy throw or not finding the wide open man. That has to stop. Zorn either needs to find another QB or help the one he is going with. Help him by ditching some of these shorter receivers and putting in the height. Marco has already shown ability in practice to hang on to the ball and Kelly is, well if he's healthy, he great. Have at least ONE 6'3 receiver on the field at all times and our receptions will go up.

Devin Thomas? The jury is still out on this guy, as far as I am concerned.

I totally agree with you! Another QB that comes to mind that isn't pin point accurate is Eli Manning. Manning absolutely depended on Plaxico's height and athleticism during their time together and especially that SB year. Eli is a quality QB but not the best who seldom makes mistakes. Campbell is a quality QB but not the best whom seldom makes mistakes. So we need to surround him with play makers with height and athleticism to make up for crucial plays we might miss due to inaccurate passes, or pressure in the pocket or an ineffective running game. Sometimes you've just gotta chuck that baby and see who comes down with it because we will face some very good defenses!

[TheItalianStallion]

I totally agree with you! Another QB that comes to mind that isn't pin point accurate is Eli Manning. Manning absolutely depended on Plaxico's height and athleticism during their time together and especially that SB year. Eli is a quality QB but not the best who seldom makes mistakes. Campbell is a quality QB but not the best whom seldom makes mistakes.Am I misreading this? Are you saying that Eli seldom makes mistakes? Up until last year he was very erratic.

[wvtbred]

I think it's funny that, if Kelly or Thomas had been the receiver who came open deep rather than Hagans, that this thread would be about half as long as it is.

As for JC, I've seen some good and some bad. Can't really say much at this point.

and if Collins had thrown it Hagans would have been hit between the numbers.

If and buts don't count right?

Anyone see the pre-game show on MNF tonight? They were discussing the NFC East and the last team mentioned was the Skins when Boomer was discussing Dallas flying under the radar and said the Skins would be too and immediately Tom Jackson said "if they had different quarterback". He might have said another instead of different but they all understood and didn't disagree with what he said.

Sad that so many others see it and here we sit, stuck in the same quagmire.

[mistertim]

and if Collins had thrown it Hagans would have been hit between the numbers.

Collins was pressured (but not even hit as he threw it) on the play where Kelly had to jump up and grab it. Why didn't he "hit him in stride" or "hit him in the numbers"? Or because it is Collins and not Campbell does that automatically mean he meant to throw it high for Kelly? If that had been Hagans on that crossing pattern instead of Kelly it probably wouldn't have been catchable seeing as how Kelly is about 7 inches taller than Hagans and he still had to jump to get it. It would have probably sailed over his head and quite possibly right into a defender's hands. Sorry but Collins isn't infallable and you have no way of even knowing if he would have been able to get the ball to Hagans on the pass where JC threw it to him. Campbell couldn't step up to throw, which is why it was high and why Todd's throw to Kelly was high. Collins might not have even attempted that pass. It is all pure speculation on your part, but you pass it off as if it is a fact.

[wvtbred]

Collins was pressured (but not even hit as he threw it) on the play where Kelly had to jump up and grab it. Why didn't he "hit him in stride" or "hit him in the numbers"? Or because it is Collins and not Campbell does that automatically mean he meant to throw it high for Kelly? If that had been Hagans on that crossing pattern instead of Kelly it probably wouldn't have been catchable seeing as how Kelly is about 7 inches taller than Hagans and he still had to jump to get it. It would have probably sailed over his head and quite possibly right into a defender's hands. Sorry but Collins isn't infallable and you have no way of even knowing if he would have been able to get the ball to Hagans on the pass where JC threw it to him. Campbell couldn't step up to throw, which is why it was high and why Todd's throw to Kelly was high. Collins might not have even attempted that pass. It is all pure speculation on your part, but you pass it off as if it is a fact.

Who has the faster release Todd or Jason?

[TheItalianStallion]

Who has the faster release Todd or Jason?Accuracy is the issue in question, so you really don't have a point here. And not to mention that Collins wasn't hit on that play. That said, JC was getting the ball out quickly that game, just as he was during the first half of last year.

[RocketCitySkins]

and if Collins had thrown it Hagans would have been hit between the numbers.


Collins only threw two passes in the 4 games he played that even traveled that far. One was to Moss, (uh, think 1st string here) who was wide open but adjusted to a high pass. The other was to a wide open Cooley (uh, think also 1st string and a big target).

[NewCliche21]

Collins was pressured (but not even hit as he threw it) on the play where Kelly had to jump up and grab it. Why didn't he "hit him in stride" or "hit him in the numbers"? Or because it is Collins and not Campbell does that automatically mean he meant to throw it high for Kelly? If that had been Hagans on that crossing pattern instead of Kelly it probably wouldn't have been catchable seeing as how Kelly is about 7 inches taller than Hagans and he still had to jump to get it. It would have probably sailed over his head and quite possibly right into a defender's hands. Sorry but Collins isn't infallable and you have no way of even knowing if he would have been able to get the ball to Hagans on the pass where JC threw it to him. Campbell couldn't step up to throw, which is why it was high and why Todd's throw to Kelly was high. Collins might not have even attempted that pass. It is all pure speculation on your part, but you pass it off as if it is a fact.

. . . you clearly haven't read any of his posts before.

[wvtbred]

Accuracy is the issue in question, so you really don't have a point here. That said, JC was getting the ball out quickly that game, just as he was during the first half of last year.

You have a problem with Todd's accuracy but not Jason's? I do have a point the point is that Jason is SLOWER then Todd with a release. If Todd threw that pass the ball would have been out sooner. Can you understand that point?

You apologists are really something it's sad and funny at the same time.

[TheItalianStallion]

You have a problem with Todd's accuracy but not Jason's?Not what I said. On the plays in question, BOTH of them were off-target. The difference was whom they were throwing to.
I do have a point the point is that Jason is SLOWER then Todd with a release. If Todd threw that pass the ball would have been out sooner.Hagans was only open because the play broke down. He likely wasn't open until the time JC threw it.

[RandyHolt]

Jason looked fine in his limited time and its just annoying some to no end. When the best thing about a poster is a sig, its time for the ignore list.

[wvtbred]

Jason looked fine in his limited time and its just annoying some to no end. When the best thing about a poster is a sig, its time for the ignore list.

Ignore me then and if you are happy with the way Jason played then you don't want to see an improvement from last year.

[Passizle]

OK where do you rank Jason in the whole league against other starters.
Right where he belongs. In the middle of the pack. He is not the hottest girl at the dance, but he is no dog either. But he does look better and better as he matures.

[wvtbred]

Right where he belongs. In the middle of the pack. He is not the hottest girl at the dance, but he is no dog either. But he does look better and better as he matures.

Can you share who you think is worse then Jason?

[Passizle]

Can you share who you think is worse then Jason?
Sure. This is who I think is worse than JC. Not all by the numbers mind you.

David Garrard
Matt Ryan
Jake Delhomme
Matt Schaub
Kyle Orton
Joe Flacco
Marc Bulger
Trent Edwards
Jeff Garcia
Kerry Collins
Jamarcus Russel
Tyler Thigpen
Derek Anderson
Dan Orlovsky

IMO, all of these guys are worse than Campbell.

[Mahons21]

Sure. This is who I think is worse than JC. Not all by the numbers mind you.

David Garrard
Matt Ryan
Jake Delhomme
Matt Schaub
Kyle Orton
Joe Flacco
Marc Bulger
Trent Edwards
Jeff Garcia
Kerry Collins
Jamarcus Russel
Tyler Thigpen
Derek Anderson
Dan Orlovsky

IMO, most of these guys are worse than Campbell.

-Why make a list of people you think are worse than Campbell but at the end only say most of these guys?

-Do Thigpen, Orlovsky or Anderson even start?
-No way he is better than Garcia or Bulger be realistic
-Matt Ryan the verdict is still out but if you were judging off points in there career Ryan is certainly doing better and same goes for flacco
-That leaves Jake Delhomme, Kyle Orton, Trent Edwards and maaaybe Matt Schaub

-In my opinion he's better than those 3 for sure but thats honestly about it ... pretty pathetic

[wvtbred]

-Why make a list of people you think are worse than Campbell but at the end only say most of these guys?

-Do Thigpen, Orlovsky or Anderson even start?
-No way he is better than Garcia or Bulger be realistic
-Matt Ryan the verdict is still out but if you were judging off points in there career Ryan is certainly doing better and same goes for flacco
-That leaves Jake Delhomme, Kyle Orton, Trent Edwards and maaaybe Matt Schaub

-In my opinion he's better than those 3 for sure but thats honestly about it ... pretty pathetic

Looks like he was using stats to get that list together. Maybe yards or td's.

I would still take Jake, Trent and Matt over Jason. That leaves Kyle and Jamarcus in the whole league, not good.

[Passizle]

-Why make a list of people you think are worse than Campbell but at the end only say most of these guys?

-Do Thigpen, Orlovsky or Anderson even start?
-No way he is better than Garcia or Bulger be realistic
-Matt Ryan the verdict is still out but if you were judging off points in there career Ryan is certainly doing better and same goes for flacco
-That leaves Jake Delhomme, Kyle Orton, Trent Edwards and maaaybe Matt Schaub

-In my opinion he's better than those 3 for sure but thats honestly about it ... pretty pathetic
OK. He IS better than all the QB's listed in my previous post. Not better than Bulger? How so? Bulger has not done anything in 3 years.
Garcia has not impress since his last 6 games for Philthy... so yeah. Campbell is better now. If he was s good, he would still have a job, and not have been on 6 different teams in the past 7 years. Dontcha think?
I can only go on the numbers we have and what I have witnessed. Cant project what has not transpire yet.
Flacco has done nothing IMO but ride a great run game and defense to the playoffs. He was not asked to do much, and his statistics reflect that. Not saying he stinks, but IMO... at this point in time, JC is a better QB regardless of the w/l record.
I feel the same aout Ryan, though I think Ryan has far more talent and higher ceiling than Flacco. Probably going to better than JC too... just not yet.

Regrdless, none of your question have any relevance as to what this discussion has turned into.

[DGREENHULK]

Um, the wide open guy deep down the field is always the best play unless there's someone even more open further down the field. And height is supposed to be an advantage over shorter defenders and catching balls in traffic... It's not supposed to be something you need when you're wide open.

Not a Cambpell Fan I see...do you really wan't Om to break down Colt's plays....:doh:

Good Read Om nice work.

[wvtbred]

OK. He IS better than all the QB's listed in my previous post. Not better than Bulger? How so? Bulger has not done anything in 3 years.
Garcia has not impress since his last 6 games for Philthy... so yeah. Campbell is better now. If he was s good, he would still have a job, and not have been on 6 different teams in the past 7 years. Dontcha think?
I can only go on the numbers we have and what I have witnessed. Cant project what has not transpire yet.
Flacco has done nothing IMO but ride a great run game and defense to the playoffs. He was not asked to do much, and his statistics reflect that. Not saying he stinks, but IMO... at this point in time, JC is a better QB regardless of the w/l record.
I feel the same aout Ryan, though I think Ryan has far more talent and higher ceiling than Flacco. Probably going to better than JC too... just not yet.

Regrdless, none of your question have any relevance as to what this discussion has turned into.

Bulger has IT and beside injuries and the fact his team really sucked last year beat who? Care to guess?

Garcia is the one I prayed for because I wouldn't hear the I don't know the O cry. He would instantly move this team up a couple of games. Flacco and Ryan were ROOKIES last year, NO excuses that they were in a new offense or that the playbook was minimized for them. They were the starting QB of winning teams, period.

You can love Jason that is your opinion great but don't say he is better then those guys because it just makes you look bad, IMO.

[Passizle]

Bulger has IT and beside injuries and the fact his team really sucked last year beat who? Care to guess?

Garcia is the one I prayed for because I wouldn't hear the I don't know the O cry. He would instantly move this team up a couple of games. Flacco and Ryan were ROOKIES last year, NO excuses that they were in a new offense or that the playbook was minimized for them. They were the starting QB of winning teams, period.

You can love Jason that is your opinion great but don't say he is better then those guys because it just makes you look bad, IMO.
St. Louis beatthe skins? Duh! But not due to ANYTHING Campbell did. If you disagree, please elaborate.
And pray tell, why would Garcia move us up a couple nothces? He has not done that for any other teams he played for recently... in fact, nothing comes to mind after the magical 5 week win streak in Philthy. Care to elaborate? Why dont other teams feel he is worth their time? Is he another Brennan scenario, where ever professional passes them up, but the armchair QB's no he is the ****? Talk about it.
Fallco... Ryan... ok. I adresses them, and JC performed better than both of them comparig the situations. Both were sacked less and all had VERY comparable numbers. Would you agree that if JC were on either of those teams, they still make playoff appearances? If not, why not?

What is this "IT" you are talking about with Bulger? If you mean guiding his team to a 46-66 record durig his tenure, yeah, then you might have a point.:doh: Lets discuss this "IT" factor you speak of... because he has sucked ass for a while now, so how is he still better?