Leftists get what they ask for....

[SkinsHokie Fan]

I say we do this around the world and see what happens in places like South Korea once we close our bases and move our troops elsewhere.... like places where they are wanted. This does make me laugh


http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20030720-115928-5820r.htm

End of live bombing at Vieques makes base, jobs expendable
By James G. Lakely
Published July 21, 2003



Stopping the U.S. Navy from conducting live-fire bombing exercises on the tiny Puerto Rican island of Vieques was a hot cause for leftist activists, Hollywood stars and Democrats in Congress in 2001.
The pressure ultimately led to President Bush deciding to end 60 years of live bombing at Vieques — the final wisps of smoke blew in May — and conduct exercises elsewhere, such as the Florida Keys and the North Carolina coast.
But the victory in the Battle of Vieques came at a steep price to the people of Puerto Rico and created a largely unforeseen consequence, the closing of Roosevelt Roads Naval Station, the island's largest employer.
"If you take the [bombing] mission away from Vieques, you don't need that base anymore," said Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham, California Republican. "Sometimes you get what you wish for."
Tucked into the Defense spending bill for 2004 is a provision that will close the base six months after the bill is signed by Mr. Bush. The sprawling base, which once stationed more than 7,000 sailors and employs thousands of Puerto Ricans in support jobs, injects $250 million into the local economy.
"Sure, [Puerto Rico] would like to have the money, but we have other priorities," said Rep. Jerry Lewis, California Republican and chairman of the House Appropriations Committee's defense subcommittee. "Many of the protesting organizations had an idea" the base could be closed, "but probably not so quickly."
Rep. John P. Murtha, Pennsylvania Democrat and ranking member of the defense subcommittee, said the Navy insisted that without live bombing exercises on Vieques, the base is not worth keeping.
"The Navy is overly committed all over the world, and they need these 3,000 people in other places," Mr. Murtha said.
Rep. Jose E. Serrano, New York Democrat, is outraged at what he calls the "arrogance" of the Navy. He said the people of Puerto Rico are "panicked" about their future without what is affectionately called "Rosey Roads."
"I think it's punishment" for the protests, Mr. Serrano said. "We are being punished for winning an issue against the federal government. The Navy said, 'Oh yeah. We're going to fix you. We're going to close the base.' "
Sen. James M. Inhofe, Oklahoma Republican and member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he feels sorry for the people of Puerto Rico but that they were "lied to by their politicians" and the protest movement.
"Puerto Rico used every unethical and illegal means to kick us off that live range," Mr. Inhofe said.
The Senate passed its version of the defense appropriations bill last week. It did not contain language closing the base, but Mr. Inhofe said he expects the base-closing provision to survive in the final version to emerge from conference committee in the coming weeks.
The property containing Roosevelt Roads has been appraised at $1.7 billion. After an environmental cleanup, which could cost around $300 million, the property will be sold with the proceeds going to the Department of Defense.
Mr. Inhofe said not training at Vieques has increased the cost of necessary live-fire exercises elsewhere and has decreased the training's effectiveness because it is harder to integrate the exercises among the services. The Vieques property has been turned over to the Interior Department, which will retain possession.
"There's a huge cost associated with losing that range," Mr. Inhofe said.
Mr. Lewis told Delegate Anibal Acevedo-Vila, Puerto Rico Democrat, that he would "give all the support we possibly can" to replace the economic loss of the base closing. Mr. Murtha said previous base closings have come with $50 million to $100 million aid packages.
Acevedo-Vila spokesman Paul Weiss would not disclose what kind of aid will be sought for Puerto Rico, and still held out hope the Navy would reconsider "rushing away from such a strategic location."
Mr. Cunningham said he would oppose any aid package to make up for Roosevelt Roads.
"They don't want us there," Mr. Cunningham said. "They had a chance to become a state and declined. They don't pay taxes."
Mr. Inhofe said it's now too late to start worrying about the "natural outcome" of the Vieques protests.
"That's their problem," Mr. Inhofe said. "The time for them to be concerned about that was when they were kicking us off our range. I told them this would happen."

[Kilmer17]

Actions have consequences.

[Riggo-toni]

:applause: :finger: :moon: :rotflmao:

[The Evil Genius]

After an environmental cleanup, which could cost around $300 million

Does anyone know what exactly the Navy was doing that caused $300 million worth of environmental damage to this tiny island?

Were they dumping old munitions or something?

[chiefhogskin48]

I love it. Did you see the reaction of the New York Democrat? The shear gall he displayed is mindboggling.

Rep. Jose E. Serrano, New York Democrat, is outraged at what he calls the "arrogance" of the Navy. He said the people of Puerto Rico are "panicked" about their future without what is affectionately called "Rosey Roads."
"I think it's punishment" for the protests, Mr. Serrano said. "We are being punished for winning an issue against the federal government. The Navy said, 'Oh yeah. We're going to fix you. We're going to close the base.' "


Is this guy just dumb?

[Kilmer17]

TEG, it was a live fire range. Lots of spent munitions to clean up as well as damage to the land and seabottom.

[chiefhogskin48]

Was Puerto Rico really up for statehood? I thought it was a rumor, not a fact? Interesting.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius


Does anyone know what exactly the Navy was doing that caused $300 million worth of environmental damage to this tiny island?

Were they dumping old munitions or something?

most likely from all the testing they were doing, they are trying to sell the land so they need to completely clean it

[jbooma]

well the Expos might help them next year afterall ;)

[Sarge]

Great. More people looking for a handout now. But, I guess sometimes you get what you ask for. Have fun in the unemployment line *****wipes

[fansince62]

I was intimately involved (in the background) with the machinations of the previous adminstration and Vieques. electoral politics at its best!

as for Roosevelt Roads: PR will do fine in the long run. The base is beautiful and occupies some prime real estate. bring in the corporations and market it as a tourist spot.

fyi....Vieques was a bombing range. the last check in the block before Navy certified battle groups for deployment. live fire ranges and joint ops with amphibious groups. problems all started when an errant munition struck and observation post killing a PR local.

[The Evil Genius]

So the only reason that the Navy was there was so they could bomb the hell out of the island?

[Kilmer17]

It's called practice. How else could they do it?

[fansince62]

TEG....you can't be that biased, can you? think of the Navy as a big weapon system. the various parts need to train together so they can nail down procedures and not kill one another when the call to duty arrives. one doesn't bomb for the shere pleasure (wish as you might in your limitted world view). there are bona training/currency requirements. these exercises/fleet evaluations involved thousands of personnel. they were very important.

[The Evil Genius]

I was just asking what the Navy used the island for.

It was honest question fan.

No bias or intent behind it.

edit...

I do find it interesting, after boning up on this island, that Vieques reportedly is one of two places left in the Western hemisphere where U.S. military exercises are conducted with live ammunition.

The other is an uninhabited island near San Diego.

The difference between the two is that Vieques is inhabited...so wouldnt you think that the citizens there might be a little upset about their island being bombed? Especially when accidents happen like in 1999 when Marine Corps pilots mistakenly dropped a pair of 500-pound bombs in a populated area of Vieques?

[fansince62]

TEG....I don't have a soft skin so fire away at me! I was just pointing out that your language was rather one sided:

"So the only reason that the Navy was there was so they could bomb the hell out of the island?"

[Kilmer17]

That's the point TEG, they DID have a problem with it and had the exercises stopped. The result of which is that the Navy no longer has the need for a base there.

The dispute now is not about the exercises, but rather the resdients and their supporters on the left feel that the Navy should be forced to keep the base there open and active despite the fact that it would serve no purpose.

[JackC]

You right wingers are being a bit silly don't you think? Does closing the base mean it was right or wrong to be doing that kind of training there?

Would closing the base be a likely "punishment" if that's what the Navy had in mind?

There seems to be a giant leap here that is just not logical to me. What area would not protest the closing of a base?

So are some of you saying. Let us do exactly what we want or pay the price? I some wonder why the right wingers are sometimes called wackos.

[Kilmer17]

No Jack, it's you and your lefty buds that are missing the point again.

This base existed BECAUSE the Navy conducted the exercises. There is no reason to keep it open now that those exercises have been stopped.

Why is this such a hard concept? Look at it this way, this base closing will probably mean that one less American base can stay open, thus helping the nations employment.

[The Wicked Wop]

Actions have consequences.

Amen:hammer:

[The Evil Genius]

Kilmer...unless I am not reading this right...according to http://www.navyvieques.navy.mil/ - the mission of the Vieques Navy base was...


U.S. Naval Computer & Telecommunications Station, Puerto Rico's mission is to operate and maintain secure, effective, and reliable C4 systems, to provide real-time support to Joint Forces and allied Naval units operating in the Caribbean and South Atlantic AORs.

Is Vieques no longer needed as a Computer and Telecommunications Station? Moreover, is the operation and maintainance of a "secure, effective, and reliable C4 system, the proviision of real-time support to Joint Forces and allied Naval units operating in the Caribbean and South Atlantic AORs" directly tied into the test bombings?

[JackC]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
No Jack, it's you and your lefty buds that are missing the point again.

This base existed BECAUSE the Navy conducted the exercises. There is no reason to keep it open now that those exercises have been stopped.

Why is this such a hard concept? Look at it this way, this base closing will probably mean that one less American base can stay open, thus helping the nations employment.


Why do you assume this is a true statement. Why do you assume because the government tells us this is the only purpose of this base that it's true. Is this because you think our government is above lying to us about things?

Surely other bases exist which don't have this kind of training right? What are they for then?

[Kilmer17]

Yeah, they werent REALLY there for the exercises. That was just a bonus.

Rolleyes.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by JackC
You right wingers are being a bit silly don't you think? Does closing the base mean it was right or wrong to be doing that kind of training there?

Would closing the base be a likely "punishment" if that's what the Navy had in mind?

There seems to be a giant leap here that is just not logical to me. What area would not protest the closing of a base?

So are some of you saying. Let us do exactly what we want or pay the price? I some wonder why the right wingers are sometimes called wackos.

Talk about a lack of logic.

Training with live-fire weapons is absolutely essential to military readiness. Period. We traditionally have paid governments all over the world for the rights to do such training on their lands. Where does right or wrong come into the discussion? Its a contract. If such governments decide to terminate such an arrangement, thats fine. And they may be justified in doing so. But the US Government would not only be foolish to maintain a presence there when training is no longer feasible, but would be irresponsible to do so. When we pull out of areas such as bases in the Philippines, Okinawa, and others, we do so for our own reasons. That should be respected just as we respect the right of our host nations to terminate such contracts. Its a business arrangement. In business when partners cease offering services which are mutually benificial, then partners choose to go their seperate ways. Its not punitive, its just common sense. Pretty logical if you ask me.

[Kilmer17]

Logical is the key word Tarhog.

[The Evil Genius]

Tar, fan, sarge...does the mission of the base represent truly what was going on there?

I'll post it again...according to http://www.navyvieques.navy.mil/ the mission of the Viques Navy base was to...


U.S. Naval Computer & Telecommunications Station, Puerto Rico's mission is to operate and maintain secure, effective, and reliable C4 systems, to provide real-time support to Joint Forces and allied Naval units operating in the Caribbean and South Atlantic AORs.

Without the bombings...is their still a need to provide the services stated in the mission? Or does the mission directly tie into the bombings?

[JackC]

Tarhog,

What does one have to do with the other my friend. Becasue this kind of training is needed it must be done in Puerto Rico? Bases only exist for this purpose? Let's move the testing to some base in Texas!

[Kilmer17]

Fine, lets move the base that accompinies it to Texas as well.

[JackC]

Good Kilmer,

I'm thinking Irving! :)

[chiefhogskin48]

TEG, you're hopeless if you are arguing this sincerely. I am still holding out hope that you're just playing devil's advocate.

There's no reason to keep that base open... period. They don't want us there, we won't be there. Even if it is "punishment", who cares? We have no obligation to keep that base open, just as we have no obligation to keep other bases open. No justification is necessary.

I don't even understand how it could be argued otherwise, with any degree of logic.

[Sarge]

JackC,

You're in rare form today. How about we move the training to Maryland? And, on top of that, we could leave the base in PR open as a form of welfare for the natives, which is what you seem to be advocating.

[gbear]

I guess my question is the base used to provide real time support for operations in the Caribean?

Question #2 (the important one): Will closing the base hamper our ability ot be effective in the region should we to be?

If the answer to the second question is no, then by all means close the base if we have no more use for it. From the sounds of things it will make nice tourist properties.

If the answer to the second question is yes, then I'd have to ask how the same people railing at Clinton for downsizing our military and making it less efective through large parts of the world could be for this.

I guess I just hope we aren't doing it for spite.

[The Evil Genius]

Chief,

Again...is the true need for that base tied directly to test bombings? Because, from the surface, its mission seems to relay that its a computer and telecommunications station.

By chance, do you or anyone else know what C4 systems are?

[Riggo-toni]

Originally posted by JackC
Good Kilmer,

I'm thinking Irving! :)

:laugh: :laugh:

[Riggo-toni]

gbear,
I'm no military guy, so I can't say for sure, but I really don't see why we need much of a force or much readiness in the Caribbean in any case. With his Soviet support a distant memory, Fidel & Co. is no threat to anyone.

TEG,
Good research. I dunno the answer, but it wouldn't surprise me if they put that stuff in the official description because it's a little less inflammatory than to basically state the true purpose of the base is to practice blwoing the sh*t out of everything.... :D

[jbooma]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius


By chance, do you or anyone else know what C4 systems are?


Yes they are missiles

TRIDENT I C4 Strategic Weapon System (SWS).

[The Evil Genius]

Thanks jbooma...thought they might have been referring to the c4 systems company that the DOD now contracts for to provide networking and computer capabilities.

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/2217581

[chiefhogskin48]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius
Chief,

Again...is the true need for that base tied directly to test bombings? Because, from the surface, its mission seems to relay that its a computer and telecommunications station.

By chance, do you or anyone else know what C4 systems are?

I think the closing of the base answers that question. It was deemed unnecessary by our military and government, which is enough for me. We have very little need for a military presence in the Carribean, much less Puerto Rico. Guantanamo Bay seems like enough to me.

I hope we start closing other foreign bases too, such as in South Korea, Okinawa, Crete, Italy, etc. People generally don't like us in their backyards, and these bases are oftentimes not useful or desirable to us.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by The Evil Genius
Thanks jbooma...thought they might have been referring to the c4 systems company that the DOD now contracts for to provide networking and computer capabilities.

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/2217581


Maybe they mean both. Then people can't get mad at their statement then :laugh:

[TheKurp]

Jumping in late here.....

First off, the $300 million quoted in the article for environmental clean-up is for the base in Puerto Rico, not the island of Vieques.

Second of all, let's not be too harsh on the people who lobbied for an end to the bombing. About 9500 people inhabit Vieques. They suffer abnormally high rates of lupus and asthma. Their cancer rate is 27% higher than that of people who live on the main island of Puerto Rico. Plants and local crops (pumpkins, bananas, mango, yucca, pineapples and peppers) have toxic levels of lead, cadmium, cobalt, nickel, manganese and copper (any wonder why the cancer rate is higher?)

The Puerto Rico Bar Association determined that the U.S. government was violating several of its own laws by occupying Vieques. Those laws include the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act and the Executive Order on Environmental Justice.

In 1983, the Navy signed a memorandum of understanding with the government of Puerto Rico. The Navy committed itself to help protect Vieques' environment and help with its economic development. However in 1999, a Senate panel named by then Defense Secretary William Cohen concluded that the Navy did not honor the promises it had made in the memorandum.

I've been to Vieques. It's a beautiful island. Growing up on St. Thomas I could hear the bombing whenever the Navy was conducting their exercises. It didn't mean much to me back then. But if I could hear it some 30 miles away in St. Thomas, imagine the noise it created for the residents of Vieques.

As for the Roosevelt Roads base? It makes no sense to me to have the Navy pull out of the Caribbean. P.R. houses 80% of the Navy's Southern Command. Now that the Fair Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) promises U.S. corporations a large presence in Latin America, the role of the U.S. military will be more vital to protect their interest from rebellions in those countries.

Yes, I think the closing of the base, if it happens, will be a case of payback because it sure doesn't make sense from a strategic point of view.

[The Evil Genius]

Kurp,

How can you profess to know anything?

You're obviously a leftist and you're not in the military! How dare you speak on this issue!










:D

[JackC]

Sarge,

Are all bases forms of welfare or just the one in Puerto Rico?

[Kilmer17]

I dont begrudge anyone for wanting to and succesfully stopping the exercises. Good for them for getting their voices heard.

But if the Military decides that it's no longer in it's interst to have a base there because of the lack of exercises, that's a result of their actions. If they failed to realize the cause-effect relationship, that's their own fault.

The US is closing many bases, I think most of us on this board have been in favor of closing foreign bases, and I would guess that most would favor keeping bases in the US open if their is a choice between Vieques and a homeland base.

As for the strategic command capability? Thats a load of crap. Gitmo can be converted, or at the very least, Tampa/Macdill can be expanded.

[TheKurp]

I hear you TEG. I'm just waiting to duck from the right-cross I'll undoubtedly get from the military folks here.

On the plus side, land right now is relatively cheap on Vieques. My buddies and I are looking at a way we can acquire some before the land grab starts. I estimate that it'll take 2 to 5 years before real estate prices double.

[Kilmer17]

Buy low, sell high.

[aREDSKIN]

Here is some additional info.


The U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee recommended a 50 percent cut in funding for the largest military base in Puerto Rico, the Roosevelt Roads Naval Station.

The recommendation was made in approving the national defense policy bill for the fiscal year that begins October 1. The bill passed both Houses of the Congress late Thursday.

The Committee report "strongly" supported a Navy plan to reduce operations at Roosevelt Roads, which is located on the eastern side of Puerto Rico’s main island. The plan will cut employment at the base by 65 percent and "reduce the number of military operational and administrative units [at the base] by 60 percent" over an 18-month period.

The Committee said the reductions warranted a cut in the base’s operating budget from $58 million to $29 million.

Its report noted that the base is being downsized because of the closure of the Atlantic Fleet’s longtime weapons training range on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques and the relocation of Vieques-based training functions to the States [and adjacent waters].

The Committee agreed with the Navy that, "[a]s a result, the overhead structure at [Roosevelt Roads] is ‘. . . significantly oversized for the remaining missions and must be reduced.’"

It backed the "plan to dis-establish or reassign military administrative and operational units currently located at [Roosevelt Roads] that were previously connected with training at Vieques." Supporting training on the Vieques range and in nearby waters had been Roosevelt Road’s major function.

The Senate action was an unsurprising setback for the goal of Puerto Rico Governor Sila Calderon ("commonwealth"/no national party) to have operations at Roosevelt Roads maintained at the Vieques range training level despite the end of the training -- which she sought. The commander-in-chief of the Atlantic Fleet, Admiral Robert Natter, recently said that the base is "a waste of taxpayer dollars" without the range.

Earlier, the Navy’s highest-ranking officer, Chief of Naval Operations Vernon Clarke, made a similar suggestion to the House Armed Services Committee.

Calderon’s pleas to have base operations continued despite the end of Vieques training are falling on ears that are particularly deaf to them because she did not honor an agreement between her predecessor, Pedro Rossello (statehood/D) and the federal government regarding the range. Her refusal to recognize the agreement as well as her intentional violations of it caused senior military officials to feel that Puerto Rico is not a reliable location for military facilities investments.

The Roosevelt Roads cutback is the latest in a series of military cutbacks in Puerto Rico influenced by Calderon’s violations of the Vieques agreement. Last year, the Army’s Southern Command moved away from the territory just two years after moving there.

The command had been located in Puerto Rico -- at Fort Buchanan in San Juan -- due to Rossello’s efforts. Calderon, however, did not seek to keep it in the islands until after the decision to move it had really been made. She also contributed to a political atmosphere that made officers feel uncomfortable. In addition, later, the Congress rescinded an appropriation of $32 million for improvements at Fort Buchanan.

Calderon’s official representative in the Congress, Resident Commissioner Anibal Acevedo Vila, has tried to convince officials in Washington that that the waters off Vieques should still be used for naval training and that Roosevelt Roads is still needed militarily. He has not succeeded. Calderon does not want the base to be closed because of the economic impact, especially on the community near the base, which is located in the municipality of Ceiba.

Closure is a serious prospect in light of the closure of the Vieques range and of the views of top military officials, like Clarke and Natter. The views are shared by some key members of the Congress.

The base’s fate will probably be ultimately determined in 2005 by a "base realignment and closure commission" established by law that will consider consolidations of military facilities to cut unneeded costs.


Puerto Rico Herald (http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2003/vol7n21/WashUpdate0721-en.shtml)

[fansince62]

jackC...you have no idea what you are talking about....this is not a core area of expertise for you. it's not just the base: it is the ocean lanes; it is the airspace; it is the surrounding seaborne and air traffic; it is the population density; it is the topography; it is the climate; in short...it is a lot of things that don't find their way into your shell game (no pun intended).

Vieques served its purpose: it helped elect one of Clinton's ex-girlfriends to the Senate. Roosevelt Roads (which is not on Vieques Island) is an awesome base, but if the Navy's leadership decides that the cost doesn't merit the benefits, then so be it. The money is better spent elsewhere (like compensating for the valuable training lost when Vieques was tubed).

[phanatic]

There is a military base to the southwest of Jacksonvile, FL. Camp Blanding is a live fire range for various ordinances'. I work this area as well as others. At all of the entrances to the base and surrounding outlying areas, you will find signs that read "The sounds you hear are the sounds of freedom". Any questions? We should probably shut down all of these live fire ranges because of their obvious impacts on the enviornment. I only have one request. ALL YOU BED WETTING CRY BABY LIBERALS NEED TO SHUT THE HELL UP WHEN A MISSLE OR BOMB HITS A CIVILIAN TARGET!!!!

I feel better now!

[JackC]

Originally posted by phanatic
There is a military base to the southwest of Jacksonvile, FL. Camp Blanding is a live fire range for various ordinances'. I work this area as well as others. At all of the entrances to the base and surrounding outlying areas, you will find signs that read "The sounds you hear are the sounds of freedom". Any questions? We should probably shut down all of these live fire ranges because of their obvious impacts on the enviornment. I only have one request. ALL YOU BED WETTING CRY BABY LIBERALS NEED TO SHUT THE HELL UP WHEN A MISSLE OR BOMB HITS A CIVILIAN TARGET!!!!

I feel better now!

There's the "new Bush American" spirit. To hell with freedom! Do it my way or else!

[Sarge]

Maybe if Gitmo gets "overcrowded" we could open up a terrorist detention annex at the base