Is The Shotgun Overrated With Zorn and His WCO???

[zskins]

I ended up catching the last drive of the Pats game last night and I started counting how many times Brady threw from the shotgun. It was 7 times to get the TD and then another for the 2 point conversion. And not a single snap was taken from the center in this series.

JC last year after the Giants game said he is more comfortable in the shotgun as it allows him to see defenders over the linemen heads.

My question is why is Zorn not playing to his QB's strength???

We keep on saying how good Brady is but maybe because the coaches there know how to play him correctly.

If you recorded the game on Sunday can someone please go back and see how many times did JC played from the shotgun position up to the hurry up mode and how many times in the hurry up offense. Thanks!

Thoughts?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Preaching to the choir...I think we should at least consider going to a spread offense for a while to get Campbell and the WRs into a rhythm. I don't think we have to abandon a traditional set...but a couple drives per game it would be nice to go up-tempo and give the defense something to think about with 4-WRs and a shotgun formation.

[Dat Moss]

I think we should run it often, and not just for the pass. Once we run a few plays in a row of a spread formation the D should be putting some xtra Dbs on the field, thats when you run out of the formation as well

[Warpath11]

I asked (in another thread) if anyone could find how many times, out of 53 pass attempts, was Brady in shotgun. I have not yet found the number but I would venture to guess it would be somewhere near 70% if not more.

[DCranon21]

I don't think it's overrated with his scheme. I wish he would use it a lot more.

[Skinz4Life12]

its pretty obvious he should use it more, but is zorn willing to adapt to the strengths of his players to exploit the weaknesses of other teams? who knows

[Warpath11]

On another note did anyone catch the Denver-Cincinnati game? I wonder how much time Orton spent in the shotgun, since McDaniels came over from the NE offense.

[Skinz4Life12]

I think we should run it often, and not just for the pass. Once we run a few plays in a row of a spread formation the D should be putting some xtra Dbs on the field, thats when you run out of the formation as well

well, apparently someone else gets it.

no one is saying abandon the run, but when it isn't working do something else that is working (shotgun) and that will in turn open up the run.

[pocampo]

Plus NE looked like Florida, Hawaii or Tex Tec when they lined up. They spread the field. Plus they go empty set a lot. There is a reason why Belicheck is talking to Meyers a lot HMMM, wonder what there talking about? Your points about the shotgun have been posted a lot this year and last year. But know one responders to it.:doh: JC does look better in the shotgun, I hope JZ gets a clue and makes this change, The WCO is JZ Dogma he must let it go. JZ needs to make some type of adjustments to help our O. This would be a first step, Put JC in the shotgun and let her rip.

[cphil006]

We should run plays geared towards Campbell's strengths... whatever they may be...

[MattFancy]

I agree that we need more plays from Shotgun. We need to spread the opposing defense out so they can't just crowd around the LOS and but 8 and 9 in the box. If Campbell feels comfortable back there, why not use it more?

[Warpath11]

I agree that we need more plays from Shotgun. We need to spread the opposing defense out so they can't just crowd around the LOS and but 8 and 9 in the box. If Campbell feels comfortable back there, why not use it more?

While I agree, I think in practice this is hard to do until our oline proves to be capable of sustaining blocks in pass pro. So far this year they have done a decent job if they continue I would not be surprised to see some more spread formations.

[HAILSKINSNYC]

our idiot coach says that you can't run out of the shotgun; which is bogus..plenty of teams do it.....I'm not saying the shotgun should be our base, but there's no reason why we can't mix it in on first and/or 2nd down from time to time.....we do it well at the end of half/game...do it more often.

what we're doing now is not working...17 games should teach you that.

[Stophovr6]

We should run out of the shotgun. And although this may not be popular, I think Betts should be next to him on most of those snaps. That way we can run draws or we can dump it off to him in the flat. That's his strength, it's Campbell's strength and it's the best way in my estimation to get this offense rolling. I know people aren't going to like the Betts thing but Portis isn't a receiving back and he doesn't go out to catch balls anyways, he stays in to block. Portis is the back that should be used on third downs. We should be passing it and at least getting manageable 3rd downs.

[MattFancy]

While I agree, I think in practice this is hard to do until our oline proves to be capable of sustaining blocks in pass pro. So far this year they have done a decent job if they continue I would not be surprised to see some more spread formations.

It would give the OL a little more time because JC would be farther back and be able to read defenses easier.

[zskins]

Here is the article from last year but still applies to JC this year as well:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/06/AR2008090602574.html

Some interesting quotes:

Campbell said: "The shotgun gives me the chance to do some different things than when you're under center. Right now, we're all still learning this new offense and adjusting to it, so anything that can help us get to where we want to be, I'm all for it."

"I just felt more confident. The receivers can see me better and I can see them better. Sometimes, trying to see the receivers while you're looking through the linemen, you just can't see 'em."

When a tall QB makes the comment above one has to wonder why Zorn likes to play mostly from center.

If you are down 14 points with 8 minutes left in the game it is time to abandon the run somewhat and go shotgun.

[JMUGator19]

our idiot coach says that you can't run out of the shotgun; which is bogus..plenty of teams do it.....I'm not saying the shotgun should be our base, but there's no reason why we can't mix it in on first and/or 2nd down from time to time.....we do it well at the end of half/game...do it more often.

what we're doing now is not working...17 games should teach you that.
There is a reason you cant mix the shotgun with our base...

West coast offense is a system not a play. Its a system for the whole organization. we know that. in this "system" you try not to run plays you do not practice. Al Saunders didnt care, but Jim Zorn does. He stays away from things we didnt practice.

So to implement the shotgun, we need to practice it more, but that isnt going to happen because there are only sooo many snaps you can practice with the first team offense. He is not about to practice the shotgun on the OFFCHANCE his real offense doesnt work.

call it confidence, call it gameplanning for success and not failure, call it bad contingency planning. whatever. I dont disagree or agree that the shotgun is a good or bad idea. just pointing out a reason they dont run it in games.


PS JC isnt tom brady, and santana isnt randy moss. If they were, then they would say, screw it, im throwing all damn day. or maybe im wrong.

[ntotoro]

You all are assuming Zorn actually has a scheme.

[MattFancy]

Just saw on twitter...Redskins.com must be checking on here.

RedskinsDotCom: Reviewing some stats...in Giants game, Jason Campbell was 14-17 for 155yds and 1Td when operating of the shotgun.

[Pedro]

^ says it all.

[SilkyDiamonds]

The game has evolved so much, with faster players, bigger players, and intense scouting of other teams.

It makes almost NO sense to spend more than 30% of the time under center. Having the quarterback receive the ball already in throwing position is INHERENTLY better than having him waste 3-7 steps where CANNOT throw(because he is dropping) thus forcing linemen to work HARDER. Thats wasted time, and in the NFL EVERY split second counts.

Watching Brady I was reminded of something Oldfan said in another thread, that the Pats employ WCO principles from a shotgun spread set. You know what its TRUE. They have basically moved the quarterback into a ready to throw position, given him 4-5 options per play, made his reads quick, and have STRETCHED the field both HORIZONTAL & VERTICAL. They pass with the intent of YAC (see Wes Welker), and use their TE's in place of the big reciever on slanting, incut routes.

Moss & Galloway(stallworth before him) are used to stretch the field vertically, thus removing the safety from favoring anything other than deep coverage. This enhancement ALLOWS the Pats to then mate their Passing game with the Erhardt/Perkins 3 yards and a cloud of dust running game.

Now this brings it full circle to the Redskins. ALL of Zorn's west coast principles can be employed and actually employed to GREATER effectiveness IF the QB was placed in a ready to throw position. This eliminates an extra 1-2 seconds of Jason dropping back, to which he can now use to see the field and throw ON-TIME & in Rhythm.

One of the big knocks people throw out at Jason is his slow decision making. Well a coach can help that by a) Brain surgery and connecting synapses b) reducing the number of decisions he has to make c) positioning him to have the MAXIMUM time to decide.

I think a) is out of the question, Zorn has gone with b) which is why you'll see Jason only "allowed" to make 1-2 reads, hence the same 3 people receive the ball. When Zorn has chosen c) what do you know Jason looks more than competent at QB.

Someone will say what about the running game? I say look at how the Pats run, they wheel out 2TEs sometimes, 6 linemen sometimes, and run draws from the shotgun sometime. Thats why its still useful to run under center about 30% of the time, because that now forces the D to say "hey, they're running", and THERE is where we can get Moss isolated in playaction deep.

So after this LONG winded rambling thesis, bottom line if Zorn allows himself to adapt to what it takes to win in this league (shotgun) you will see BETTER results.

[MattFancy]

Great points Silky. We need to send this to Zorn.

[zskins]

Great post Silky!

Also we might have a problem with Portis needing his touches so the 30% now becomes close to 50%.

I got this from wiki: Five step and even 7 step dropbacks are now implemented in modern day WCO's because defensive speed has increased since the 80's. Some modern WCO's have even used shotgun formations (e.g. Green Bay)

Sounds like to me Zorn hasn't learned the speed of the current NFL players. He might still be stuck back in the 80's :doh:

[Stophovr6]

So after this LONG winded rambling thesis, bottom line if Zorn allows himself to adapt to what it takes to win in this league (shotgun) you will see BETTER results.

A+, I like the way you think.

[Oldfan]

I have been a strong proponent of the Shotgun Spread for use in the NFL since the days of Patrick Ramsey. But everyone needs to realize that the decision isn't as one-sided as posters in this thread seem to think it is.

Bill Walsh was dead set against the gun primarily because his WCO was built upon timing the throw with the drop back, the loss of effective play-action, and other considerations.

While I agree that Jason would do much better in the gun, we also need to realize that Zorn, like Walsh, has a fundamental belief his scheme. The decision isn't that cut-and-dried.

[DixieFlatline]

I have been a strong proponent of the Shotgun Spread for use in the NFL since the days of Patrick Ramsey. But everyone needs to realize that the decision isn't as one-sided as posters in this thread seem to think it is.

Bill Walsh was dead set against the gun primarily because his WCO was built upon timing the throw with the drop back, the loss of effective play-action, and other considerations.

While I agree that Jason would do much better in the gun, we also need to realize that Zorn, like Walsh, has a fundamental belief his scheme. The decision isn't that cut-and-dried.

I understand that, but didn't Gibbs have a fundamental belief in his scheme until he went 0-5 his first time here and then change himself? I'm not necessarily advocating the switch, but the numbers are compelling how much better Campbell does while in shotgun.

[Skinz4Life12]

SilkyDiamonds for head coach?

[skins4eva]

Some of us have been asking for greater use of the shotgun since Gibbs returned. One of my biggest disappointments thus far with Zorn is that he is trying to make Campbell into an under center QB. Campbell is a shotgun QB. That's where he is comfortable. He has never looked comfortable under center and part of that stems from the fact that his dropback under center is the slowest I have ever seen. He needs to be in the shotgun.

[SilkyDiamonds]

SilkyDiamonds for head coach?
Only if The Danny Allows me to take a spin in Redskins 1, 2x a month, and all ties between Vinny & I are settled with boxing gloves lol

[TD_washingtonredskins]

While I agree that Jason would do much better in the gun, we also need to realize that Zorn, like Walsh, has a fundamental belief his scheme. The decision isn't that cut-and-dried.

That doesn't mean his fundamental belief is correct. You have to adapt to your players. You can't just stay entrenched in a scheme and allow your players to fail. The job of a coach is to put his players in a position to be successful. We already had a guy in here who was just implementing a scheme (Spurrier), I want a coach who will adjust to what his players do best.

[Blackest Eyes]

If Campbell was 14-17 for 155 yards and a TD out of the shotgun, I would hope that Zorn is seriously considering having Campbell in the shotgun more frequently. Obviously Jason can perform at a very high level out of the shotgun. Jason needs to be put in a position to succeed and if he is performing well out of the shotgun, Zorn needs to suck it up and put his QB in the shotgun.

[skins4eva]

That doesn't mean his fundamental belief is correct. You have to adapt to your players. You can't just stay entrenched in a scheme and allow your players to fail. The job of a coach is to put his players in a position to be successful. We already had a guy in here who was just implementing a scheme (Spurrier), I want a coach who will adjust to what his players do best.

Completely agree. This underscores the problem with hiring a position coach who has never even been a coordinator. He is learning on the job, at the team's expense. Watching other offenses this week, I had to wonder whether our receivers even have the ability to run option routes. Can they break a route off depending on the coverage? It just seems impossible that our WR could be this ineffective.

[Oldfan]

I'm not necessarily advocating the switch, but the numbers are compelling how much better Campbell does while in shotgun.

Jason has been learning the WCO. It's safe to presume that, with more experience, he'll improve. I have been saying since Zorn got here that I thought he would eventually have to incorporate about 50% shotgun, but I also understand why his decision will be a difficult one to make.

Zorn, Montana, Young, Hasselbeck -- all are strong believers in the advantages of throwing on rythym and the other advantages of the WCO.

[skins4eva]

[QUOTE=Oldfan;6753494]I have been saying since Zorn got here that I thought he would eventually have to incorporate about 50% shotgun, but I also understand why his decision will be a difficult one to make.
QUOTE]

Why is it a difficult decision to make?

[Oldfan]

That doesn't mean his fundamental belief is correct. You have to adapt to your players. You can't just stay entrenched in a scheme and allow your players to fail. The job of a coach is to put his players in a position to be successful. We already had a guy in here who was just implementing a scheme (Spurrier), I want a coach who will adjust to what his players do best.

Your premise is that Jason is now, and will always be, much better in the shotgun than from under center -- despite the fact that he has just one year operating from under center in the WCO and should improve.

[Skinsinparadise]

from football outsiders: "one thing the Redskins should investigate is Jason Campbell's excellence in the shotgun formation...last year, 155 of Campbell's 506 passing attempts came from the shotgun, and the Redskins' passing DVOA (defensive-adjusted value over average) jumped from 9.1% to 35.6% when Campbell backed up from under center.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

[QUOTE=Oldfan;6753494]I have been saying since Zorn got here that I thought he would eventually have to incorporate about 50% shotgun, but I also understand why his decision will be a difficult one to make.
QUOTE]

Why is it a difficult decision to make?

I agree...at this level, that should be something that they can implement rather quickly.

[skins4eva]

Your premise is that Jason is now, and will always be, much better in the shotgun than from under center -- despite the fact that he has just one year operating from under center in the WCO and should improve.

Disagree. Campbell's footwork and his dropback are too slow. He is not comfortable under center, and he never will be.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Your premise is that Jason is now, and will always be, much better in the shotgun than from under center -- despite the fact that he has just one year operating from under center in the WCO and should improve.

But we don't have to think in such a linear way. We can sprinkle in more shotgun and still give him the time he needs to improve with the under-center WCO.

Plus, why do we have to label our offense so strictly? Why can't Zorn take the things Campbell does well NOW and model an offense around that? That might have been a good thing to be working on this off-season. There's no rule saying we have to implement Seattle's WCO is there?

[skins4eva]

But we don't have to think in such a linear way. We can sprinkle in more shotgun and still give him the time he needs to improve with the under-center WCO.

Plus, why do we have to label our offense so strictly? Why can't Zorn take the things Campbell does well NOW and model an offense around that? That might have been a good thing to be working on this off-season. There's no rule saying we have to implement Seattle's WCO is there?

QFT. At the very least, it could give Campbell more confidence and allow the offensive to function in a smoother manner.

[Da Truth]

Somebody sticky this thread, archive it something -- this is what i been saying for the LONGEST..how come Zorn can't see it? JC OBVIOUSLY looks comfortable in a shotgun set..if its workin, why not use it??


The game has evolved so much, with faster players, bigger players, and intense scouting of other teams.

It makes almost NO sense to spend more than 30% of the time under center. Having the quarterback receive the ball already in throwing position is INHERENTLY better than having him waste 3-7 steps where CANNOT throw(because he is dropping) thus forcing linemen to work HARDER. Thats wasted time, and in the NFL EVERY split second counts.

Watching Brady I was reminded of something Oldfan said in another thread, that the Pats employ WCO principles from a shotgun spread set. You know what its TRUE. They have basically moved the quarterback into a ready to throw position, given him 4-5 options per play, made his reads quick, and have STRETCHED the field both HORIZONTAL & VERTICAL. They pass with the intent of YAC (see Wes Welker), and use their TE's in place of the big reciever on slanting, incut routes.

Moss & Galloway(stallworth before him) are used to stretch the field vertically, thus removing the safety from favoring anything other than deep coverage. This enhancement ALLOWS the Pats to then mate their Passing game with the Erhardt/Perkins 3 yards and a cloud of dust running game.

Now this brings it full circle to the Redskins. ALL of Zorn's west coast principles can be employed and actually employed to GREATER effectiveness IF the QB was placed in a ready to throw position. This eliminates an extra 1-2 seconds of Jason dropping back, to which he can now use to see the field and throw ON-TIME & in Rhythm.

One of the big knocks people throw out at Jason is his slow decision making. Well a coach can help that by a) Brain surgery and connecting synapses b) reducing the number of decisions he has to make c) positioning him to have the MAXIMUM time to decide.

I think a) is out of the question, Zorn has gone with b) which is why you'll see Jason only "allowed" to make 1-2 reads, hence the same 3 people receive the ball. When Zorn has chosen c) what do you know Jason looks more than competent at QB.

Someone will say what about the running game? I say look at how the Pats run, they wheel out 2TEs sometimes, 6 linemen sometimes, and run draws from the shotgun sometime. Thats why its still useful to run under center about 30% of the time, because that now forces the D to say "hey, they're running", and THERE is where we can get Moss isolated in playaction deep.

So after this LONG winded rambling thesis, bottom line if Zorn allows himself to adapt to what it takes to win in this league (shotgun) you will see BETTER results.

[Oldfan]

I agree...at this level, that should be something that they can implement rather quickly.

Disadvantages:

--loss of throwing on rythym for timing
--loss of reads while dropping back
--loss of effective play action
-- diminished running game
-- added risk on snaps

[skins4eva]

Disadvantages:

--loss of throwing on rythym for timing
--loss of reads while dropping back
--loss of effective play action
-- diminished running game
-- added risk on snaps

How could our running game be any more diminished than it already is? At least we could run a draw and potentially find some room up the middle. In the same vein, if our running game doesn't work, play-action won't be effective anyway. We are actually the kind of team that needs to run in order to set up the pass. Every defensive coordinator in the NFL knows that if they stop the run, which isn't hard to do, the chances of Campbell succeeding through the air are minimal.

I'm not sure I understand the "loss of reads while dropping back" disadvantage. I happen to think that's an advantage in shotgun. Same for loss of throwing rhythm.

[SilkyDiamonds]

Jason has been learning the WCO. It's safe to presume that, with more experience, he'll improve. I have been saying since Zorn got here that I thought he would eventually have to incorporate about 50% shotgun, but I also understand why his decision will be a difficult one to make.

Zorn, Montana, Young, Hasselbeck -- all are strong believers in the advantages of throwing on rythm and the other advantages of the WCO.

You can throw on rythym out of the shotgun, It was your post in another thread about Offensive systems that had me watching intently at Brady & co.

And besides being smart enough to have a dummy count so the D shows the blitz and coverage, then adjusting. (LOVE THAT) The Pats passing game was a very rhythmic system. Brady gets ball, reads, throws. NO wasted time. Thats why you very rarely saw Brady run, or broken plays.

The key similarity between Zorn, Montana, Young & Hasselbeck is they are all smaller QB's, with shorter strides. JC and Brady are BIG TALL Qb's with longer strides. Where Montana could get to his 5th step quickly, JC & Brady take longer. That's WASTED time.

Incorporating the shotgun doesnt mean abandoning the under center element, it will make that element MORE effective. Because now when going under center after being in gun 7 out of 10 snaps, teams will play packages and personnel for the gun, you can play the same personnel Moss, Kelly, Are, Cooley, Portis, in an undercenter look.

So where the D Co-Ordinator is sending in plays to limit shotgun effectiveness, we just reduce down and run it, or throw playaction behind it. Or even begin to do some of the 3-5 step straight dropbacks Zorn loves.

[LetThePointsSoar]

Disagree. Campbell's footwork and his dropback are too slow. He is not comfortable under center, and he never will be.

BING!! BING!!! BING!! BING!!! BING!! BING!!! WINNER!!!!! :applause:

[SilkyDiamonds]

Disadvantages:

--loss of throwing on rythym for timing
--loss of reads while dropping back
--loss of effective play action
-- diminished running game
-- added risk on snaps

This I have to disagree with, Brady throws ON RHYTHM, its get the ball make read, throw ball.

Disagree again, coming to the line Brady spends the majority of the time dictating the reads, so that at snap its 1, 2, 3 BAM. Watch how he adjusts his teams alignment to dictate that whether a backer is on Welker, or Faulk, with conflicting responsibilities or just a straight up physical mismatch. He's reading before even getting the ball, by dictating.

Running the draw often and effectively should provide you with the ability to go playaction, and playaction off the draw is VERY dangerous because the linemen are already in a pass blocking set to sell the draw.

Again from one of your threads and straight from Football Outsiders Pass to score Run to win
Get points early and often, then just grind the clock away in reduced down, double tight sets and let portis milk the clock mid 3rd Qtr on.

Added risks on snaps now that there's no argument. That is a risk

[Skinz4Life12]

bottom line. zorn = dense

[Warpath11]

coming to the line Brady spends the majority of the time dictating the reads, so that at snap its 1, 2, 3 BAM. Watch how he adjusts his teams alignment to dictate that whether a backer is on Welker, or Faulk, with conflicting responsibilities or just a straight up physical mismatch. He's reading before even getting the ball, by dictating.

Can Campbell do this well on a consistant basis? that is the big question.

Also if he threw out of shotgun 17 times against the Giants that is actually 63% of his total pass attempts (though I think the last 7 were on the last TD drive so that skews the stats some). If you take out the last 7 attempts he was in shot gun on basically half the passing plays (that is plenty IMO).

[mel25]

i remember reading somethin about how popular the WCO is, and the article said somethin along the lines of the patriots basically run a WCO from the shotgun. also, last night the announcer made a comment about how brady threw mostly short passes. then i think about our game, and campbell seemed to do best when we went 3 or 4 wide from the gun. even in al saunders offense, campbell did better when we went 4 wide from the gun, especially when we went no huddle. so basically, jason campbell is better than tom brady. ok maybe not, but the OP has a valid point, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to go this route. i don't understand why he takes snaps from under center when there's an empty backfield. they know we're not runnin, might as well be in the gun.

[skins4eva]

Can Campbell do this well on a consistant basis? that is the big question.

Also if he threw out of shotgun 17 times against the Giants that is actually 63% of his total pass attempts (though I think the last 7 were on the last TD drive so that skews the stats some). If you take out the last 7 attempts he was in shot gun on basically half the passing plays (that is plenty IMO).

On a critical 3rd and goal when the Giants were clearly blitzing the house--he was under center. On the most critical 3rd down of the game, after a timeout no less, on 3rd and 9, he was under center. WHY WHY WHY wouldn't he be in the shotgun in those situations? Zorn is truly an abject moron. After listening to him justify his own horrendous playcalling, I am more convinced than ever. Once again, this is why you don't hire a position coach, make him the offensive coordinator BEFORE you've hired a head coach and then promote him to head coach. There was only one way this experiment of Snyder's could have ended: in failure. All of us have, to varying degrees, realized this at some point.

[#1njskinsfan]

im sorry this is not the WCO

in the WCO there is short, quick passes, split backs, and backs into the flat, roll out passes....

zorn does none of this..... his O is well OFFENSIVE

[Oldfan]

This I have to disagree with, Brady throws ON RHYTHM, its get the ball make read, throw ball.

That's NOT throwing on rhythm. That terminology is exclusive to the dropback.


Disagree again, coming to the line Brady spends the majority of the time dictating the reads...

The dropback allows for POST-snap reads that the QB in the shotgun can't make with his eyes on the center.


Running the draw often and effectively should provide you with the ability to go playaction, and playaction off the draw is VERY dangerous because the linemen are already in a pass blocking set to sell the draw.

The objective of playaction is to draw the LBs in to open up the area behind them. That can't be done from the Gun.


Again from one of your threads and straight from Football Outsiders Pass to score Run to winGet points early and often, then just grind the clock away in reduced down, double tight sets and let portis milk the clock mid 3rd Qtr on.

Sure, you can argue that. But, the WCO philosophy is to use both pass and run to move the chains. That certainly works as well.

[paintrain]

I've been saying this to anyone who will listen for the past 3 days, that Campbell needs to be in the shotgun more often. As a JC supporter, I acknowledge that his ceiling is probably to be a top 12-15 QB in the league, but even to get to that plateau he needs to be put in positions to succeed. If his strength and comfort are in the shotgun, use the damn shotgun! I don't think he's ever going to be a good 'classic drop back passer' but he can be very good at getting the snap, making the read and delivering the ball. We can still do play action, run the ball, etc. from the gun but it takes creativity and guts-both of which Zorn lacks.

One of my frustrations with the Redskins is that we seem to think it's still 1987. We don't adapt and innovate. We're still trying to be a power running football team because 'that's what it takes in the rough and tumble NFC East'. Bullsh*t. The Eagles have dominated the division throwing the ball 60% of the time. The one time the Cowboys won it, they were bombs away thru the air. When the Giants won it last year, they threw early and pounded late. I hope Shanahan recognizes this fact and brings a more modern and aggressive approach next spring.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Sure, you can argue that. But, the WCO philosophy is to use both pass and run to move the chains. That certainly works as well.

I guess I'm wondering why it matters. Whether the Washington Redskins offense follows every pillar of the classic WCO or not, if they create a playbook that generates yards and points that blends a shotgun with some WCO principles, isn't that OK too?

I mean, Gibbs came here as an Air Corryell guy and changed to a one-back offense within half a season.

[sugarbear326]

Zorn and his offense is overrated, if he does not open the offensive playbook up this week against the rams, I say FIRE hime and soon as the game is over..Stop babying JC, if he can't play QB, then put someone in who can.

[SilkyDiamonds]

We will agree to disagree, Brady throws on rhythm. Call it what you like, but he receives the snap, makes read, throws ball. That is the DEFINITION of rhythm in the passing game, no wasted hitches at the end of his drop, no double clutching, no loading and reloading.

Its receive snap, make read, throw ball

He wont have to make much of a post snap read if he has DICTATED what the defense CAN do. If you have effectively through personnel, alignment, and motion, dictated to the defense you will cover player X with player z or this area of the field has 2 defenders and 3 offensive players. The post snap read is eliminated or made SIMPLER by PRE-SNAP actions

Thats the beauty of the draw, and its playaction. The entire play looks the same from the start. There is no tipping off to the defense by linemen hat levels (hat level down = run/ hat level up = pass) The linemen pass set on both the draw and the playaction.

So now you have again DICTATED that either the backers stay back and allow Portis/Mason to come full steam at them with D-Linemen now 5 yards behind them, or they come up and you now pop over the middle to Cooley/Moss/Kelly. But they MUST have an OVERARCHING philosophy in attacking the draw look, or they dont stand a chance in defending it.

And any answer they have is the wrong answer, because the play looks the exact same, and you give Jason the ability to take the ball out the RB's belly and throw it, you dont make it predetermined. Maybe you start the first 2 series predetermined to get a glimpse of how they defend it, talk to your QB, then allow him to make the decision.

Again just because your in shotgun doesnt mean you cant run. You can achieve a semblance of balance from the gun.(using the draw) Once your up 10 points by passing anyways, you'll be able to REDUCE down, go DOUBLE tight, and pretty much run the ball from the mid 3rd Qtr on.

And part of Bill Walsh's WCO theory is being able to use the short pass in lieu of the run at times. That is not taken away in the gun, nearly 80% of Brady's passes are short basically running plays to Welker or Faulk. We can employ that with ARE and Portis/Betts/Mason

[skins4eva]

That's NOT throwing on rhythm. That terminology is exclusive to the dropback.

This might be the most ridiculous sentence I've read in a long time. You're allowing form to trump substance here.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

This should end the debate.

From ProFootball Outsiders via Homer McFanboy


The one thing I’d like to see more of from Campbell and the Redskins offense is him in the shotgun. Last year, Campbell had a DVOA of 9.1 under center and a 35.6 in shotgun,” Farrar said. “And we’re not talking about a small sample size. There were over a hundred shotgun attempts. The Patriots, Chiefs and Cardinals all ran over 50 percent of their offense from the shotgun last year and it would help Campbell a lot. He seems to be able to progress in his reads better when things aren’t so much in his face and he can get a sense of what’s going on down the field.”

Fact is, we should ONLY run plays out of the shotgun.

[GaryGreenMonk]

I think we should hand the ball off and run off left tackle everytime. And whenever the first 2 tries don't work and we end up in 3rd and long.. we should then run some garbage gadget play or audible to a draw if they are blitzing.

perfect game plan.. we'll win everytime.

:cool:

[MattFancy]

This should end the debate.

From ProFootball Outsiders via Homer McFanboy



Fact is, we should ONLY run plays out of the shotgun.

Look on page 2 when I posted his numbers from the Giants game when he was in shotgun. I dunno why we don't use it more.

[Warpath11]

Look on page 2 when I posted his numbers from the Giants game when he was in shotgun. I dunno why we don't use it more.

We used it over 63% of the time against the Giants...how many times do you guys think is enough?? Even without the last drive (6 shotgun snaps) it would have been over 50% in shotgun how much is enough?

[Oldfan]

This might be the most ridiculous sentence I've read in a long time. You're allowing form to trump substance here.

You don't know what you're talking about. The timing of the WCO is so precise that it matters whether the QB takes his five step drops in five even steps or three slow and two quick.

The shotgun QB does not have that timing element.

[MattFancy]

We used it over 63% of the time against the Giants...how many times do you guys think is enough?? Even without the last drive (6 shotgun snaps) it would have been over 50% in shotgun how much is enough?

Right and it worked well. Let's see how often we use it against the Rams. We used it alot against the Giants because we fell behind 17-0. We didn't have much of a choice.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

We used it over 63% of the time against the Giants...how many times do you guys think is enough?? Even without the last drive (6 shotgun snaps) it would have been over 50% in shotgun how much is enough?

Like I said, every play.

If Jason is 4 times better in the Shotgun than under center...that's the way to go. Manning and Brady are in the shotgun 75 to 80 percent of the time. Why can't we?

If Portis doesn't like it, tough.

[SilkyDiamonds]

We didnt open with it, and it took until the middle 2nd Qtr before it started becoming a STAPLE of the offense.

Being down 17 points and then going full out shotgun is backwards, COME OUT in shotgun and GET UP by 17. The percentages would probably be the same because we'd be running from the mid 3rd qtr on, but using the gun to establish and dictate as opposed to catching up is the key here

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

You don't know what you're talking about. The timing of the WCO is so precise that it matters whether the QB takes his five step drops in five even steps or three slow and two quick.

The shotgun QB does not have that timing element.

So how do Brady and Manning know when to throw the ball?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Like I said, every play.

If Jason is 4 times better in the Shotgun than under center...that's the way to go. Manning and Brady are in the shotgun 75 to 80 percent of the time. Why can't we?

If Portis doesn't like it, tough.

I'm with you...and to OldFan, who cares if we're technically running THE West Coast Offense? Why can't we run Zorn's Redskin version of the offense highlighting the strengths and masking the weaknesses of our players? Isn't that what coaches make millions of dollars to do?

Call it the Potomac Shore Offense, add your own wrinkles, and get the ball in the end zone. Not everything has to be copycat!

[Oldfan]

This should end the debate.

As you know, I've been a strong proponent of the shotgun spread for a long time. However, since Zorn is not here to defend himself, I feel the need to point out that nothing is quite that simple when selecting between schemes.

Campbells DVOA stats for 2008 do not seal the deal on anything.

[Oldfan]

I'm with you...and to OldFan, who cares if we're technically running THE West Coast Offense?

Bill Walsh's objections to the Gun weren't just technicalities. There are plusses and minuses to be weighed -- and it's not an easy call.

[Oldfan]

So how do Brady and Manning know when to throw the ball?

They have to do it by by instinct,without the dropback timing device that WCO QBs seem to love.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Bill Walsh's objections to the Gun weren't just technicalities. There are plusses and minuses to be weighed -- and it's not an easy call.

But still...what did you see out of the shotgun plays on Sunday that would lead you to believe we can't do more of that throughout a game.

I acknowledge that Zorn can't craft an entirely new offense in a week so that every single play can be run from the shotgun. There will be times when we will have to tell Jason to be a big boy and take the snap from under center. But maybe we should run shotgun a little more often and add plays to that formation as the season wears on and see where it gets us?

If there were really THAT many cons to it, teams wouldn't use it as frequently as they do. At the end of the day, this is about beating the other team. If we can line up in the shotgun and give Campbell 4-5 targets, he will probably be able to sit back and find the open guy. He did it against a pretty good D on Sunday.

[Oldfan]

Can we agree that Jason rarely throws to his primary target? If a QB is constantly giving up on his primary then timing is less crucial. My contention, which you will probably disagree, is that Campbell is not comfortable throwing to a spot, he prefers to throw to a man. The whole "WCO/timing" issue is moot. Since he is not comfortable, we may as well tailor the offense to him and use the shotgun.

My guess is that 95% of all QBs feel more comfortable in the shotgun. If the QB's comfort level was the only consideration, that would be the end of it. But, there are many other factors to weigh.

[skins4eva]

You don't know what you're talking about. The timing of the WCO is so precise that it matters whether the QB takes his five step drops in five even steps or three slow and two quick.

The shotgun QB does not have that timing element.

Oldfan, when you're in a hole, stop digging. You're support of this proposition, that there is no timing involved with passing from the shotgun, is absurd.

[Oldfan]

If there were really THAT many cons to it, teams wouldn't use it as frequently as they do.

Because of the many cons, they didn't use it in the NFL for 75 years. The only attempt to do so -- Red Hickey with the Niners -- ended in a perceived failure.

[SilkyDiamonds]

Bill Walsh on USC, Pete Carroll, Oklahoma and Stoops 2005............

"We’re witnessing the evolution of offensive football. Anyone who says you have to establish the run before you can do anything is fooling themselves. They’re living in the deep dark past. It’s just not the way the game’s played now. Just look at the way the Trojans tore apart Oklahoma, with Leinart hitting receivers all over the field.

We’re never going to see that Woody Hayes-, Bo Schembechler- style of football again, that run-first mentality. The game has totally changed in a matter of eight to 10 years, and especially in the last three or four. People are playing out of the shotgun, they have mobile quarterbacks, multiple receivers, and they’re throwing the ball like crazy."

http://smartfootball.com/grab-bag/bill-walsh-on-usc-pete-carroll-oklahoma-and-stoops

[Oldfan]

Oldfan, when you're in a hole, stop digging. You're support of this proposition, that there is no timing involved with passing from the shotgun, is absurd.

Keep it straight. I didn't say there was no timing involved. I said that the mechanical timing element provided by the drop back (throwing on rhythm) was missing.

[Oldfan]

Bill Walsh on USC, Pete Carroll, Oklahoma and Stoops 2005............

I missed your point. Did someone say that establishing the run was essential in today's game?

[SilkyDiamonds]

I missed your point. Did someone say that establishing the run was essential in today's game?

No but someone hinted at Bill Walsh's AVERSION to the gun

Seems to have NO qualms with it there

edit: and being that handing to a runningback moving towards the line with a few steps of momentum seems to be the last vestige of benefit from the under-center offense that the Shotgun cannot replicate

[Oldfan]

You keep repeating "other factors", but none are as important as a QB's comfort level. He must execute the plays. While many other QB's probably prefer the shotgun, it appears that Campbell is completely UNCOMFORTABLE under center. After a while the realities of a situation must take precedence over "other factors".

The QB's "comfort level" is much too vague a concept to be a major factor in any decision. The QB's performance can be measured under center and in the shotgun. But the QB's performance is just one of many considerations Zorn will have in making the decision.

[Oldfan]

No but someone hinted at Bill Walsh's AVERSION to the gun. Seems to have NO qualms with it there

I didn't make it up. Walsh's aversion to the gun was well-known and many of his disciples carried on the tradition for the same reasons. John Gruden was the last holdout.


edit: and being that handing to a runningback moving towards the line with a few steps of momentum seems to be the last vestige of benefit from the under-center offense that the Shotgun cannot replicate

Last vestige of benefit? That's hype.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

They have to do it by by instinct,without the dropback timing device that WCO QBs seem to love.

And Campbell seems to be really good at throwing on instinct and really ****ty when throwing on timing.

So, do what works.

You get really really hung up on the technicalities of these offenses.
Bill Walsh was against the shotgun in 1984. Outside of Dallas, nobody used it on anything but third and long then. Gibbs was opposed to it in 2005; he got over it.

Campbell is demonstrably better in the gun. It seems silly to limit your QB's ability because of dogma.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Because of the many cons, they didn't use it in the NFL for 75 years. The only attempt to do so -- Red Hickey with the Niners -- ended in a perceived failure.

Well, just as we perfected indoor plumbing and "talkies" I think the shotgun is proven enough now that we can use it.

[28skinsfan]

If Campbell was 14-17 for 155 yards and a TD out of the shotgun, I would hope that Zorn is seriously considering having Campbell in the shotgun more frequently. Obviously Jason can perform at a very high level out of the shotgun. Jason needs to be put in a position to succeed and if he is performing well out of the shotgun, Zorn needs to suck it up and put his QB in the shotgun.

If he performs that well from the gun maybe we should also use the pistol formation as well. That way we would still have the treat of the run.

[skins4eva]

Keep it straight. I didn't say there was no timing involved. I said that the mechanical timing element provided by the drop back (throwing on rhythm) was missing.

It feels like you are arguing semantics. Throwing on rhythm does not necessitate a drop back. I just don't understand the connection. In any event, isn't it possible to accomplish the same exact timing by throwing from the shotgun? A QB could simply count to 2 or 3 and then throw. I'm guess I'm completely missing the connection here.

[SilkyDiamonds]

NO DOUBT...... Walsh the father and Progenitor of the WCO had his issues and OPPOSED the shotgun for the exact reason you named the rhythmic aspect. But at the time, how the shotgun was used it didnt lend itself to what he set out to do philosophically.

But as of 2005 Bill began to see how you could utilize the shotgun within the concept of timing and rhythm. Which is why his progeny have ALL incorporated the gun in some form or fashion (some to a greater extent than others)

Shannahan
Holmgren
Childress
M.Sherman
Reid
Fisher
Kubiak
Gruden

Just like Paul Brown couldn't foresee how his offense would mutate and incorporate the philosophies of Bill Walsh to become the WCO, Bill couldn't foresee his WCO mutating and becoming Shotgun based. Its evolution.

But at least Bill did begin to see that this added facet was coming and that it would be effective

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If he performs that well from the gun maybe we should also use the pistol formation as well. That way we would still have the treat of the run.

I question whether that formation would work in the pros. But it's an idea.

[skins4eva]

The QB's "comfort level" is much too vague a concept to be a major factor in any decision. The QB's performance can be measured under center and in the shotgun. But the QB's performance is just one of many considerations Zorn will have in making the decision.

You're making this more complicated than it should be. Zorn isn't considering the pros and cons of nuclear proliferation and the applicability of a MAD analysis. He simply needs to consider what gives us the BEST chance to win. If QB play is an integral part of success, which we all know it is, then Zorn will adjust his schemes to allow Campbell to succeed. If he doesn't, he's dumber than we all thought. If he doesn't want to adjust the scheme, then get a new QB. We're not debating quantum mechanics here.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You're making this more complicated than it should be. Zorn isn't considering the pros and cons of nuclear proliferation and the applicability of a MAD analysis. He simply needs to consider what gives us the BEST chance to win. If QB play is an integral part of success, which we all know it is, then Zorn will adjust his schemes to allow Campbell to succeed. If he doesn't, he's dumber than we all thought. If he doesn't want to adjust the scheme, then get a new QB. We're not debating quantum mechanics here.

True...but Red Hickey had a hum-dinger of a time with the 'gun for the 49ers.

[28skinsfan]

I question whether that formation would work in the pros. But it's an idea.

I think it would. The only difference is the that QB is closer to the LOS than in the standard shotgun formation. It would give JC enough room to see defenders while still having the option of handing off to CP.

[SilkyDiamonds]

Last vestige of benefit? That's hype.

Last vestige of benefit that CANNOT BE REPLICATED in the shotgun. Don't misquote me, or chop my statements to fit an argument. Take it fully

Other than the 7 step drop, and having a running back coming at the line witha head of steam, the shotgun can be used to do EVERYTHING under-center can

[Oldfan]

It feels like you are arguing semantics. Throwing on rhythm does not necessitate a drop back. I just don't understand the connection. In any event, isn't it possible to accomplish the same exact timing by throwing from the shotgun? A QB could simply count to 2 or 3 and then throw. I'm guess I'm completely missing the connection here.

In football jargon, "throwing on rhythm" has a specific meaning relative to dropbacks and the WCO. Walsh invented the term. Yes, the Shotgun QB will time his throws, but by some other means.

[SoCalSkins]

We should run plays geared towards Campbell's strengths... whatever they may be...

He runs a nice victory formation. Maybe save him for those situations?

[Oldfan]

Last vestige of benefit that CANNOT BE REPLICATED in the shotgun. Don't misquote me, or chop my statements to fit an argument. Take it fully

Okay, but it's still hype.


Other than the 7 step drop, and having a running back coming at the line witha head of steam, the shotgun can be used to do EVERYTHING under-center can.

If you were correct, no coach would ever put the QB under center.

The RB's momentum is not that important. It would be great if you had a dominant O line who could open the hole where planned. If not, the RB's momentum will run him into the back of his linemen.

[SoCalSkins]

Not having a legitimate play-action option would destroy what little passing success our offense has.

[Oldfan]

Just like Paul Brown couldn't foresee how his offense would mutate and incorporate the philosophies of Bill Walsh to become the WCO, Bill couldn't foresee his WCO mutating and becoming Shotgun based. Its evolution.

To imply, as Matt Bowen did, that the Patriots scheme has WCO elements is fine. But, to say that a WCO can be shotgun-based is mis-leading as hell.

[SilkyDiamonds]

Okay, but it's still hype.



If you were correct, no coach would ever put the QB under center.

The RB's momentum is not that important. It would be great if you had a dominant O line who could open the hole where planned. If not, the RB's momentum will run him into the back of his linemen.


First and foremost I love a debate with you as I've said before because there is thoughtful dialogue and I ALWAYS learn something when debating with you.

1st, Teams ARE trending to MORE shotgun, and LESS under center, teams that used to be synonymous with double tight smash mouth are now spreading folks out and putting the QB in the gun.

Pittsburgh
Chicago
Cleveland
Baltimore
Kansas City
Denver

And 2nd teams will continue to play a QB under center (well the Wildcat DOES solve the momentum problem though) BECAUSE forward MOMENTUM to the line IS IMPORTANT in the "Power Running" game

Momentum is EXTREMELY important in the power running game. It's one of the main disadvantages of the shotgun, your back is next to the QB and cant get a full head of steam. (again the wildcat sort of solves that by bringing a back at full speed across the formation)

Power running requires a running back able to run through tackles, occasionally slam directly into the line where there is NO HOLE or a VERY SMALL hole, and make one. In those situations (dives, slams, whams, powers, stretch plays) you need to have your back with as much momentum as possible.

Evidenced by Clinton's first carry, hitting the hole at "full steam". Thus MORE need for MOMENTUM to beat the first man and LESS emphasis on ELUDING to beat the first man. (save for B.Sanders)

So shotgun teams tend to have a smaller back in the gun, who is quicker. (B.Westbrook, K.Faulk, M.Forte, L.Washington, D.Sproles etc.). More apt at moving in smaller spaces, and EXTREMELY quick, with amazing start/stop/start movement.(think M.Mason) Thus less need for MOMENTUM to beat the first man, and more emphasis on ELUDING the first man.

A team needs to be able to do both, running under center to suck the air out the ball, gain short yardage(though now the gun draw is proving capable), and facilitate the big 7-step, deep play-action game.

And shotgun to maximize the time the QB has to see/dictate the coverage, the time he has ball in hand prepared to throw, and the immediate distance of the DL from him. Ball control passing , 4-5yd passes, with YAC potential, allowing you to be in MANAGEABLE 3rd down situations.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Not having a legitimate play-action option would destroy what little passing success our offense has.

Then why is Jason four times more successful in the shotgun than under center?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

To imply, as Matt Bowen did, that the Patriots scheme has WCO elements is fine. But, to say that a WCO can be shotgun-based is mis-leading as hell.

Why do you care so much that we stay with the WCO?

Let's call it "The **** You Offense" and actually score some points.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In football jargon, "throwing on rhythm" has a specific meaning relative to dropbacks and the WCO. Walsh invented the term. Yes, the Shotgun QB will time his throws, but by some other means.

So Manning and Brady never "throw on rhythm?"

You are fun to talk to, but sometimes you get so deep into the semantics of these things that you lose all concept of what we are talking about.

Here's the bottom line: We are - at present - a ****ty WCO team. You can't argue that.

The only time our passing game works is when we operate out of the shotgun.

To me, it seems obvious what the solution is.

But that would mean that we are no longer a WCO team, which is bad for some reason.

[cphil006]

So Manning and Brady never "throw on rhythm?"

You are fun to talk to, but sometimes you get so deep into the semantics of these things that you lose all concept of what we are talking about.

Here's the bottom line: We are - at present - a ****ty WCO team. You can't argue that.

The only time our passing game works is when we operate out of the shotgun.

To me, it seems obvious what the solution is.

But that would mean that we are no longer a WCO team, which is bad for some reason.

I don;t think we have the right personnel to run a great/successful WCO. JC doesn't have a quick throw/release and that is what I have seen from teams that run it well.

[cphil006]

Then why is Jason four times more successful in the shotgun than under center?

Probably because we play shotgun when trying to score at the end of the half/game and we chip away at defenses most likely in "prevent" like the Giants were at the end of the game.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying... Is JC really a good "WCO" QB? Or would a different style fit him better?

Is it the style or the play-calling? Or is it him? Maybe a combination???

[Oldfan]

So Manning and Brady never "throw on rhythm?"

You are fun to talk to, but sometimes you get so deep into the semantics of these things that you lose all concept of what we are talking about.

When I do that, you should point it out. However, in this case you miss the point. Throwing on rhythm is an advantage of the WCO over the shotgun. You can't counter that by claiming that QBs who throw from the shotgun are throwing on rhythm just because you happen to like the word.


The only time our passing game works is when we operate out of the shotgun...To me, it seems obvious what the solution is.

Nothing is that obvious when weighing schemes.


But that would mean that we are no longer a WCO team, which is bad for some reason.

It's bad if there are good reasons to stick with the WCO until your offense has it mastered. This is what Jim Zorn has to grapple with. It would be lunacy to make scheme changes based on the flimsy evidence presented in this thread.

[zskins]

They have to do it by by instinct,without the dropback timing device that WCO QBs seem to love.

Really? You should watch Brady more often then. In one pre-seaosn game he stepped back turned and threw all in one motion like a "robot" with prefect timing and hit his WR right in stride as well. I made a comment about it in that game thread and Bubba said don't tell OF about it.

[Rypien1191]

I read a stat today that from the Shotgun, JC was something like 15 of 17 for 155 and a touchdown. Thats not overrated to me.

[SoCalSkins]

Probably because we play shotgun when trying to score at the end of the half/game and we chip away at defenses most likely in "prevent" like the Giants were at the end of the game.


That as well as throwing short of the 1st down on 3rd and long to pad stats.

[SkinsRMoney06]

I read a stat today that from the Shotgun, JC was something like 15 of 17 for 155 and a touchdown. Thats not overrated to me.

It has been repeated ad nauseum that a good chunk of these numbers came towards the end when the G-Men were in a prevent defense. I think this has some merit.

Regardless of JC's stats on Sunday, there have been several times where it is clear as day that JC performs better out of shotgun. Remember that 07 game in Dallas? Yeah we didnt win but, JC was lights out when throwing from the gun. Thats just one example.

I really think Zorn has no choice but to try something different. His job depends on us scoring points, and if he does not try things that might work he is insane and does not want to keep his job.

[zskins]

I read a stat today that from the Shotgun, JC was something like 15 of 17 for 155 and a touchdown. Thats not overrated to me.

psssttt.. that was point of the thread. JC should be doing more of it during the other 95% of the game and not just in the hurry up mode because now he have fallen behind and need to catch up. ;)

[SkinsRMoney06]

That as well as throwing short of the 1st down on 3rd and long to pad stats.

You seriously think JC is PURPOSELY throwing short of the sticks to improve his numbers? Get real dude :doh:

[Oldfan]

Silky -- But as of 2005 Bill began to see how you could utilize the shotgun within the concept of timing and rhythm.

I think you're rewriting history here. I don't believe Walsh ever embraced the Gun.


1st, Teams ARE trending to MORE shotgun, and LESS under center...

That's true.


Momentum is EXTREMELY important in the power running game.

The split T offense failed precisely because teams without dominant O lines were put at a disadvantage when the RBs momentum was stopped in the hole and he had no place to go.

At one time the QB under center would slide along the LOS and hand to the RB going full tilt. Today, the QB brings the ball back which give the RB a chance to see and run to daylight.


Evidenced by Clinton's first carry, hitting the hole at "full steam".

Clinton's first carry was on a stretch play. There's no way to know in advance where the hole will be since it depends on the pursuit. Portis has to make a read which requires a little patience.

[SoCalSkins]

You seriously think JC is PURPOSELY throwing short of the sticks to improve his numbers? Get real dude :doh:

Of course he is. He had 1 pass interference drawn in all of 2008. He knows he is a fraud and can't make clutch throws, so he takes low risk passes the defense gives up to pad his numbers. 52% of his passing yards last year were from YAC. The rest of the team is good enough to carry the fraud against mediocre teams. Against better ones, he falls apart, but we play enough mediocre teams for him to continue.

[Oldfan]

Really? You should watch Brady more often then. In one pre-seaosn game he stepped back turned and threw all in one motion like a "robot" with prefect timing and hit his WR right in stride as well. I made a comment about it in that game thread and Bubba said don't tell OF about it.

What does this have to do with throwing on the rhythm connected to dropbacks?

[SkinsRMoney06]

Of course he is. He had 1 pass interference drawn in all of 2008. He knows he is a fraud and can't make clutch throws, so he takes low risk passes the defense gives up to pad his numbers. 52% of his passing yards last year were from YAC. The rest of the team is good enough to carry the fraud against mediocre teams. Against better ones, he falls apart, but we play enough mediocre teams for him to continue.

Ok, what about last year when we beat Dallas and Philly on the road back to back? Were those mediocre teams?

Regardless of how dumb you think JC is, I would say its a safe bet that he realizes that throwing short of the sticks on third down on purpose is not a good way to keep his job.

Where did you get that "52% of his passing yards last year were from YAC." Stat?

[SoCalSkins]

Ok, what about last year when we beat Dallas and Philly on the road back to back? Were those mediocre teams?

Regardless of how dumb you think JC is, I would say its a safe bet that he realizes that throwing short of the sticks on third down on purpose is not a good way to keep his job.

Where did you get that "52% of his passing yards last year were from YAC." Stat?

Relatively. They finished with less than 10 wins.

If he pads stats and we pull out wins he keeps his job, it has worked for him so far.

Here is the YAC numbers. It is a very good read:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/air-yards-2008.html

And here is another good analysis of the gutless football that Campbell led in 2008:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/12/anatomy-of-collapse.html

[MrJL]

well, apparently someone else gets it.

no one is saying abandon the run, but when it isn't working do something else that is working (shotgun) and that will in turn open up the run.

the Skins also seem to run better with a pitch out to the running back so that could help too.

[SilkyDiamonds]

Clinton was running with ALOT of MOMENTUM to a general area, it is an Off-Tackle Stretch.

And look at the play again, not just a cursory look. A REAL LOOK, the play was specifically designed to be run off Samuel's influence block. In other words Clinton run fast as hell to Samuel's, cut which ever way his rear end is (because the play is designed to to have Samuel's influence his man either inside meaning cut out, or outside meaning cut in)

There's a reason he wasn't just standing behind the tackle and having Jc run over to hand him the ball and then start to run.

And Oldfan you know what it is. MOMENTUM

Because if what you say is true, coaches would have the running back would stand still, wait for the ball then run. (And THAT would be a draw, in which you are using the MOMENTUM of the defense to run past you)

But we BOTH know that the running back has taken 5-8yds worth of full speed steps before hitting the line (momentum) on a stretch play. 3-4 yds of full speed steps before hitting the line on a dive. 5-8 yds of full speed steps before hitting the line on an Iso.

See where Im going with that one?

You do make a good point the vision aspect is huge (then again he would have vision in the gun, and utilize a play you unwittingly advocated the draw :D)

edit:This and the 7 step/deep play Action game are the LAST advantages that being under-center offers that the Shotgun cannot replicate, which is why I advocate still running around 30% under center

[Oldfan]

Silky -- And look at the play again, not just a cursory look. A REAL LOOK, the play was specifically designed to be run off Samuel's influence block

I've seen the stretch play run a few hundred times. I understand the concept. When the RB's momentum is discussed, coaches are talking about his momentum toward the LOS, not angled out toward the down marker. The stretch play is not an example of the advantage of momentum. You are straining here.


Because if what you say is true, coaches would have the running back would stand still, wait for the ball then run.

That's not a logical deduction. Because too much momentum can be bad, none must be better?


This and the 7 step/deep play Action game are the LAST advantages that being under-center offers that the Shotgun cannot replicate, which is why I advocate still running around 30% under center.

I think play-action will have to be sacrificed. Swings to split backs from the shotgun will partially replace the running game. Seven-step drops make no sense in today's game. Rollouts will buy more time with less risk of sacks and turnovers.

[SilkyDiamonds]

Yay! we agreed at least a little bit on a little bit I'm happy now lol

But seriously this has been great being able to bounce things and ideas off someone like you who is informed and opinionated

Cheers

[SkinsRMoney06]

Relatively. They finished with less than 10 wins.

If he pads stats and we pull out wins he keeps his job, it has worked for him so far.

Here is the YAC numbers. It is a very good read:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/air-yards-2008.html

And here is another good analysis of the gutless football that Campbell led in 2008:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/12/anatomy-of-collapse.html

Appreciate those links.

Well, I for one dont think the Eagles, who made it to the championship, were marginal last year, or the Cardinals, both of whom we beat, but thats another discussion.

I just cant see the logic of your argument that Jason purposely throws short of the sticks. You say its so he can keep his job, but wouldnt he have more job security if he sustains drives and scores points, instead of purposely causing three and outs?

[SoCalSkins]

I just cant see the logic of your argument that Jason purposely throws short of the sticks. You say its so he can keep his job, but wouldnt he have more job security if he sustains drives and scores points, instead of purposely causing three and outs?

If he believes he can't make those throws consistently why take a risk? Skins still end up with around 8 wins and he has very few picks and strong completion percentage etc.

The guy lacks confidence. When you audible to a run on 3rd and 8 with the game on the line, you have no chance as an NFL QB. Instead of being the team guy and trying to win, he pads stats and sacrifices everyone else for his own selfish agenda. I can see why people think he is such a character player.

[SkinsRMoney06]

If he believes he can't make those throws consistently why take a risk? Skins still end up with around 8 wins and he has very few picks and strong completion percentage etc.

The guy lacks confidence. When you audible to a run on 3rd and 8 with the game on the line, you have no chance as an NFL QB. Instead of being the team guy and trying to win, he pads stats and sacrifices everyone else for his own selfish agenda. I can see why people think he is such a character player.

I can see your point. Whether or not he has confidence, he knows that this is his last chance in DC. He is going to have to take risks this year.

It is hard to say he is being selfish i would argue. We dont know what play is called, if the receivers were covered/did not run the proper route, if the play broke down etc. Not trying to make excuses, just an observation.

I'm not sure why that audible, which was clearly a mistake, was called.

[zskins]

What does this have to do with throwing on the rhythm connected to dropbacks?

I quoted your quote talking about timing in a drop back and not rhythm. So what I said had nothing to do with rhythm. ;)

[MdMack21]

Man i was watching the game and saying the exact same thing!!...Jason even said he is more comfortable and i believe it was a stat showing how accurate he was from the gun!..I love the way the Pats use the short passing game like its a run. I mean I think the coaches are limiting Jason in a way but time will tell. We also need to throw more on first and second. Stop running on first down every single time!..

[SoCalSkins]

It is hard to say he is being selfish i would argue. We dont know what play is called, if the receivers were covered/did not run the proper route, if the play broke down etc. Not trying to make excuses, just an observation.


That might be the case on several individual plays. However, in 508 pass attempts in 2008, the Redskins drew 1 pass interference call. That is the epitome of not taking risks.

Every year you see PI called on TE's on short routes hit by LB's. So we are not just talking about deep routes either. If in the NFL you are not willing to make tight throws, you end up with the results we have had. You can't expect NFL defenses to leave your guys wide open. If you do, your offense stagnates and you end up wasting years on a guy who is not capable.

As far as the audible, JC stated that he was not aware of how many yards were needed for the first down. A QB in the 2nd half on a crucial play, following a time out, does not know how many yards he needs on 3rd down. If that is the actual reason and not because he was afraid to try and make a play and took the coward audible, then how can you question his lack of ability to throw past the sticks? He apparently doesn't think it is important to even know where they are.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

For the record, the only running play that we consistenty run well is the stretch play. Which the Colts run out of the shotgun all the time.

The only time JC looks like a real NFL QB is when he is in the shotgun. Like Peyton Manning.

So, why are we trying to be the Seahawks instead of the Colts?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

For the record, the only running play that we consistenty run well is the stretch play. Which the Colts run out of the shotgun all the time.

The only time JC looks like a real NFL QB is when he is in the shotgun. Like Peyton Manning.

So, why are we trying to be the Seahawks instead of the Colts?

I think this sums it up pretty nicely...

To me, we don't have to stay married to the Seahawks WCO (or even the WCO at all). Take your players' strengths, marry them up with offensive philosophies, and build your own. I joked earlier in this thread that, if it helps, just call it the Potomac Coast Offense or something so you don't feel bad.

Play to your players' strengths!! That's THE job of a coach. Period.