Are the fans and the owner against the Redskins rebuilding?

[IrepDC]

I keep reading how Snyder has ruined this franchise in all these threads. Then I turn around and read the same people talk about blowing the team up and getting all new coaches and players. My question is whether you all really have the patience to rebuild? Part of becoming elite is going through a few bad seasons, building up your roster through the draft, and maintaining some sort of stability in the staff.

For the past few seasons we have done just enough to get by. Everyone wants to blame Snyder for all his moves but really he's just doing what all of you ask for. Everytime we lose a few games this fan base goes insane and Snyder starts itching to make a change to shut all of you up. Whether it's signing a new player or coach. We all complain about his knee jerk moves but we all consistently protest for them to be made.

Right now we have Zorn who is an inexperienced coach. He makes a lot of dumb decisions. But he's learning. He's trying different things. And he will only get better. Maybe we should fire him and any other coach after things get bumpy, or maybe we could try rallying around a coach and the players we have, for once. Wouldn't you all like to have our OWN Cowher, or Shanahan, or Fischer? Those coaches came from ownerships and fan bases that stayed loyal over years, good and bad times.

People have to realize that we aren't as good as we want to think we are. We aren't as bad as we played the past week but we aren't on the same level as those elite teams. To get on that level things are going to have to get worse before they get better. Maybe we end up with higher draft picks the next year. Maybe we suffer a few more embarrasing losses. But let the nucleus of the team stay steady and build around it.

That means we support Zorn and the players we have. Don't urge Snyder to make another knee jerk move because believe it or not I think he reacts to the fans. If we put it out there that we want consistency and we want Zorn to be given more time Snyder will listen. The only issue is whether we all are truly patient enough to let this team rebuild.

If we end up firing our coach and trading half our draft for a QB we'll only have ourselves to blame. The one strategy we HAVEN'T tried is NOT making any moves. Please let's have some patience and act like we have some vision towards the future. If the team is going to be bad then so be it. Let them rebuild.

[The_Godfather]

Spending $150 million on 2 defensive players is not rebuilding.

[SkinsHokieFan]

The fanbase would accept rebuilding if it was a true re-build, done correctly, with a team that drafts players, has a GM and team structure in place and an apparent plan

[wvuskinsfan]

Part of becoming elite is going through a few bad seasons, building up your roster through the draft, and maintaining some sort of stability in the staff.

When do we ever draft well, drafting in the top 15 and not picking until round 4 isnt a draft at all.

[IrepDC]

The fanbase would accept rebuilding if it was a true re-build, done correctly, with a team that drafts players, has a GM and team structure in place and an apparent plan

But the fans don't ask for a "true rebuild". All everyone wants is to bench this player or fire this coach. We are not one player away. We are not one former coach away. Cerrato gets a lot of crap but he has been drafting fairly well the past few years. We are building a young group of players to build around. It's the knee jerk reactions from the fans to always let those players go before they develop.

[Chrispy4545]

I agree, I really don't see this fan base having the patience to rebuild. But if I were owner/GM I would do what I could for the team if I knew that it would one day make them great.

If Snyder came out today and said he's going to rebuild this team around our young players (Horton, Landry, Kelly, Mitchell, etc.) then I would be all for it. I am so tired of being mediocre that I would gladly stomach a losing season or two for a great team.

[IrepDC]

When do we ever draft well, drafting in the top 15 and not picking until round 4 isnt a draft at all.

Last year we had something like 10 picks and we're still waiting on those players to grow. But even with those guys you already hear our own fan base proclaiming they are busts before this season even started. This environment is not one where a player OR coach can develop. We have a bunch of Dan Snyders running around talking trash about the real Dan Syder.

[SkinsMaster88]

Honestly, this is why someone like Dan Snyder shouldn't be in charge of the football decisions on the team. We need someone to understand the long-term implications of running a football franchise and developing young talent. Snyder's mentality is always win-now. The fans' mentality is always Super Bowl or bust. We need a more rational football GM to manage the team and truly go through a rebuilding phase and become a continual contender after time.

Fans never want to actually go through rebuilding, but we've seen what 1-2 year stretches of trying to get one last guy or coach can do. It hasn't worked.

[IrepDC]

Spending $150 million on 2 defensive players is not rebuilding.

Moves like that I blame on the fanbase though, because we think we are one player away so our owner goes out and gets that one big player. That's why in the OP I'm saying us fans need to shut up and rally behind what we have and stop screaming for outside help. Let the young players we have grow. Let Zorn learn and build a staff around himself(he was given this one). And if we need help let it come from us developing draft picks, all while keeping in mind draft picks aren't always going to be instant stars.

[IrepDC]

Honestly, this is why someone like Dan Snyder shouldn't be in charge of the football decisions on the team. We need someone to understand the long-term implications of running a football franchise and developing young talent. Snyder's mentality is always win-now. The fans' mentality is always Super Bowl or bust. We need a more rational football GM to manage the team and truly go through a rebuilding phase and become a continual contender after time.

Fans never want to actually go through rebuilding, but we've seen what 1-2 year stretches of trying to get one last guy or coach can do. It hasn't worked.

But since we can't choose our owner why can't we educate each other to at least be a positive influence on the owner? When I watched the news and post game show it was us fans sending in the emails, and messages, and on camera calling for the knee jerk moves to be made. We can't complain when he does these things because we sit idle and watch other fans call for it.

[SkinsMaster88]

Your points are valid, but I would say almost every team's fanbase wants that stud guy in free agency. Big name guys create excitement about the team and hence, generate more revenue.

In the 2008 draft, I was stoked about the young talent that could develop with Thomas, Davis, and Kelly. We've needed new weapons besides Moss and Cooley forever.

I was absolutely thrilled about the possibilities of our defense when we somehow were able to get Haynesworth and Orakpo. Keeping Hall from his great short time at the end of 2008 allowed us to have good secondary depth as well.

Guess what, the product has not shown up on the field. You have to make the right decisions, not the popular decisions.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Moves like that I blame on the fanbase though, because we think we are one player away so our owner goes out and gets that one big player. That's why in the OP I'm saying us fans need to shut up and rally behind what we have and stop screaming for outside help. Let the young players we have grow. Let Zorn learn and build a staff around himself(he was given this one). And if we need help let it come from us developing draft picks, all while keeping in mind draft picks aren't always going to be instant stars.

Somehow, this is all my fault?

Please.

The Redskins are not a football team; they are a marketing strategy.

[Mr. Grundle]

But the fans don't ask for a "true rebuild". All everyone wants is to bench this player or fire this coach. We are not one player away. We are not one former coach away. Cerrato gets a lot of crap but he has been drafting fairly well the past few years. We are building a young group of players to build around. It's the knee jerk reactions from the fans to always let those players go before they develop.

I'm asking for a true rebuild if Snyder will truly hand over the keys to a real football person. I'll go through years of sucking if we start doing things right. Drafting right, spending right, everything needs to be handed over to a real football person. I begged for it before this season started when it was obvious this was going to be the biggest disaster of season for Snyder to date.

And change the f'ing team name while were at it. Appease the native americans and let start over with a clean slate at the same time.

[IrepDC]

Your points are valid, but I would say almost every team's fanbase wants that stud guy in free agency. Big name guys create excitement about the team and hence, generate more revenue.

In the 2008 draft, I was stoked about the young talent that could develop with Thomas, Davis, and Kelly. We've needed new weapons besides Moss and Cooley forever.

I was absolutely thrilled about the possibilities of our defense when we somehow were able to get Haynesworth and Orakpo. Keeping Hall from his great short time at the end of 2008 allowed us to have good secondary depth as well.

Guess what, the product has not shown up on the field. You have to make the right decisions, not the popular decisions.


I agree with everything you're saying here, and if Snyder was a good owner he'd realize this. But we all know he's a business man. And we all know we're in a unique situation where; if we scream loud enough for change, he will make a change. I'm suggesting we scream just as loud for stability for once. Right now all people are doing is encouraging him to do the same thing he's done since he's been owner. Then when it doesn't work they'll be booing him again.

[LD0506]

Yes it is OUR fault that TheDan is clue-resistant and stubbornly trying to convince anyone available that he can run a franchise.

Glad we got that cleared up.

[roy182]

I understand your even keel and I somewhat admire it, but ignoring the obvious is delusional.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=301574

[IrepDC]

I'm asking for a true rebuild if Snyder will truly hand over the keys to a real football person. I'll go through years of sucking if we start doing things right. Drafting right, spending right, everything needs to be handed over to a real football person. I begged for it before this season started when it was obvious this was going to be the biggest disaster of season for Snyder to date.

And change the f'ing team name while were at it. Appease the native americans and let start over with a clean slate at the same time.

But we have already begun the process of rebuilding. There have been mistakes along the way but that is expected. We need to stick with this group we have now and learn together. We always call for someone that's always established. Vinny is learning. We have all our draft picks this year and he's found guys like Horton and Marko late. Zorn is learning. He looks dumb as hell out there sometimes but he modifies his coaching every single week trying to improve. Clearly they're not near best at what they do but with the right environment they could grow and become that. Calling for Snyder to blow everything up would just be hitting the "reset" button on the building process.

[Fred Jones]

The fanbase would accept rebuilding if it was a true re-build, done correctly, with a team that drafts players, has a GM and team structure in place and an apparent plan

Yes, and add owner that keeps his nose out of their business and changes his attitude.

[IrepDC]

Yes it is OUR fault that TheDan is clue-resistant and stubbornly trying to convince anyone available that he can run a franchise.

Glad we got that cleared up.

This right here is a microcosm of our fan base. Instead of being open minded to another opinion you make a sarcastic over simplified statement of what I'm saying. What's your point?

[Veretax]

If we lose to Tampa, blow it the heck up!... I can suffer 4 years of knowing we will be down, if it pays off in year 5

[IrepDC]

I understand your even keel and I somewhat admire it, but ignoring the obvious is delusional.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=301574

Trust me I'm not ignoring the obvious. I elluded to my feelings about this team when I said that we aren't as good as we think we are. But there's no need to point out the negatives in my opinion. They are obvious to any objective person. My point is this situation can become a positive 2 or 3 years down the road, or it could become another version of the same sad story from the past ten years.

[DCsportsfan53]

Were they to hire a real GM, allow him to hire a coach, jettison all the old veterans (Samuels, Rabach, Griff, Daniels, Portis, Campbell, ect) for as many draft picks as possible, draft a QB and surround him with a young, drafted OL you bet your ass I'd be down for the growing pains.


What I cannot stand for anymore and cannot contribute another dime of my money towards is constant offseason band aids to make a Super Bowl run that just ends in continued mediocrity.

[IrepDC]

If we lose to Tampa, blow it the heck up!... I can suffer 4 years of knowing we will be down, if it pays off in year 5

Blowing it up is what we always do though. That's the problem. We're too lazy to actually go through and pick out the weak links and build upon them, so we just blow everything up and hope someone comes in and makes a miracle. Stick with Zorn. Watch his progress closely. Stick with the players that we can build around. Continue to draft well. Bring in young lineman. It doesn't have to be an explosion every time. Let the change come gradually not suddenly.

[LD0506]

This right here is a microcosm of our fan base. Instead of being open minded to another opinion you make a sarcastic over simplified statement of what I'm saying. What's your point?

My point is that we the fans don't have one goddam thing to do with it! We don't get to make any decisions, recruit any players or get scammed by any of their agents. By doing yet another one of your "Disney duckies and bunnies dancing on the lawn" Pollyanna-ish delusional posting acts, trying yet again to explain away what Stevie Wonder could see in the dark- THIS IS NOT AN ORGANIZATION, IT IS DAN SNYDER'S PERSONAL TOY. Period.

Unless and until someone is hired that actually knows something about building/rebuilding/maintaining a professional football team, is given absolute authority to institute needed changes and is left alone to do so, you will get continuous replays of yesterday's historic ****ing the bed performance.

Is that simple enough?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Blowing it up is what we always do though. That's the problem. We're too lazy to actually go through and pick out the weak links and build upon them, so we just blow everything up and hope someone comes in and makes a miracle. Stick with Zorn. Watch his progress closely. Stick with the players that we can build around. Continue to draft well. Bring in young lineman. It doesn't have to be an explosion every time. Let the change come gradually not suddenly.

Is Zorn going to get better? He's 57 years old.

[IrepDC]

Were they to hire a real GM, allow him to hire a coach, jettison all the old veterans (Samuels, Rabach, Griff, Daniels, Portis, Campbell, ect) for as many draft picks as possible, draft a QB and surround him with a young, drafted OL you bet your ass I'd be down for the growing pains.


What I cannot stand for anymore and cannot contribute another dime of my money towards is constant offseason band aids to make a Super Bowl run that just ends in continued mediocrity.

I agree and think most fans do. The problem is that people expect everything in paragraph one to happen in one offseason, which leads to paragraph 2. Two or three years ago we were bringing in the young skill positions. Last year we brung in the DL. This year we bring in the OL. Continue to build all while closely watching how these coaches are developing as well. In my opinion Blache isn't getting the full potential out o f his players, nor is Zorn at the moment, but Blache isn't open to improving. Therefor he isn't improving or helping his players to improve. I think our WR and OL coaches also may need to be upgraded. There are changes to be made but they need to be made over time.

[Veretax]

But we have already begun the process of rebuilding. There have been mistakes along the way but that is expected. We need to stick with this group we have now and learn together. We always call for someone that's always established. Vinny is learning. We have all our draft picks this year and he's found guys like Horton and Marko late. Zorn is learning. He looks dumb as hell out there sometimes but he modifies his coaching every single week trying to improve. Clearly they're not near best at what they do but with the right environment they could grow and become that. Calling for Snyder to blow everything up would just be hitting the "reset" button on the building process.


uhm 2010 3rd rd went for Jarmon, I think we have a 5th or 6th gone for the JT trade too :/

[IrepDC]

Is Zorn going to get better? He's 57 years old.

Well if you look past his age yes I think he is. Just look at this season for example. I have never seen a coach so quick to acknowledge his mistakes and work to correct them the next game. The Giants game he was too predictable. Running on every first down. Next two games he switched it up and now calls a variety of plays on 1st down. Giants game he stuck with the run to long when it wasn't working. Next game he used the pass to set up the rune and the next game he tried to do the same. Listen I'm not saying he's a great coach right now I'm saying let him become one. No coach starts out knowing everything. It's trial by fire. Zorn seems pretty responsive to the fire in only his second season as a HC.

[Alvin_Walton40]

If I stare at a turd for a year, it will not turn into a twinkie.

[Warpath11]

I would not be against a true re-building situations (really how much are a few 4-12 seasons different than 7-9 or 8-8??). Having said that if Dan Snyder does such a thing he may loose a lot of money out of pocket as some in the fanbase will be pissed after a few season of 3 or 4 wins. Dan likes his money so that may never be an option for us we will always be a player or two away...

[Alvin_Walton40]

Well if you look past his age yes I think he is. Just look at this season for example. I have never seen a coach so quick to acknowledge his mistakes and work to correct them the next game. The Giants game he was too predictable. Running on every first down. Next two games he switched it up and now calls a variety of plays on 1st down. Giants game he stuck with the run to long when it wasn't working. Next game he used the pass to set up the rune and the next game he tried to do the same. Listen I'm not saying he's a great coach right now I'm saying let him become one. No coach starts out knowing everything. It's trial by fire. Zorn seems pretty responsive to the fire in only his second season as a HC.


First off, there are plenty of coaches w/ no HC experience doing just fine in the NFL. Secondly, why do we need to wait till he learns how to coach at the highest level? I can understand the sentiment if he was in charge of the highschool JV team but an NFL football team? Please.

[Skinz4Life12]

honestly, I would just be happy with firing Vinny and bringing in a real football GM. (one that makes the football decisions and keeps Danny out of things)

That would be the biggest and most necessary change.

[IrepDC]

My point is that we the fans don't have one goddam thing to do with it! We don't get to make any decisions, recruit any players or get scammed by any of their agents. By doing yet another one of your "Disney duckies and bunnies dancing on the lawn" Pollyanna-ish delusional posting acts, trying yet again to explain away what Stevie Wonder could see in the dark- THIS IS NOT AN ORGANIZATION, IT IS DAN SNYDER'S PERSONAL TOY. Period.

Unless and until someone is hired that actually knows something about building/rebuilding/maintaining a professional football team, is given absolute authority to institute needed changes and is left alone to do so, you will get continuous replays of yesterday's historic ****ing the bed performance.

Is that simple enough?

Calm down and reread the OP. Nothing like a Disney act. More like a level headed opinion about trying something different. I'm not saying our ownership has been right. I'm actually saying the opposite. My specific point is that the fans are not helping the situation at all because what we ask for is usually what we get. If you don't think the fans have an effect on Snyder that's your opinion but history says otherwise.

[IrepDC]

First off, there are plenty of coaches w/ no HC experience doing just fine in the NFL. Secondly, why do we need to wait till he learns how to coach at the highest level? I can understand the sentiment if he was in charge of the highschool JV team but an NFL football team? Please.

Why not wait? We've already tried to hire the big name coaches who were already established. It's not like we have a Super Bowl roster that is a coach away from winning it all. Now IS the time to groom our own coach because we are still grooming our roster.

[LD0506]

But that's part of the problem, a genuine football GM wouldn't give a rat's ass what the fans said from week to week BECAUSE he would know they are windsocks, it's just the way things are.

TheDan still trying to pretend he knows what he's doing and isn't destroying what was once a proud franchise only makes things worse. Rearrange the deckchairs all you want, have the band play different tunes but until that gaping hole below the waterline is addressed the results will be the same.

[corn_beef_n_rice]

seems like the team is reloading, not rebuilding.

the ny yankees are about show you can actually win a championship by reloading

even though i'm second guessing myself

we should keep zorn and keep the same system in place rather than blowing up the the entire org

i don't think we're too far off, if we could just score a TD, then everything would be almost gravy

but blache needs to change his defensive scheme

[IrepDC]

I would not be against a true re-building situations (really how much are a few 4-12 seasons different than 7-9 or 8-8??). Having said that if Dan Snyder does such a thing he may loose a lot of money out of pocket as some in the fanbase will be pissed after a few season of 3 or 4 wins. Dan likes his money so that may never be an option for us we will always be a player or two away...

And that is the predicament right there. Our owner wants to win but he wants money above anything. If the only time our fanbase is loyal is when they "think" we're a contender than he's gonna do what he has to do to keep fooling us. Whether that's bringing in some big name coach or signing some big name player. We all will complain afterwards, when it doesn't work, but we won't support a team that is building.

[IrepDC]

But that's part of the problem, a genuine football GM wouldn't give a rat's ass what the fans said from week to week BECAUSE he would know they are windsocks, it's just the way things are.

TheDan still trying to pretend he knows what he's doing and isn't destroying what was once a proud franchise only makes things worse. Rearrange the deckchairs all you want, have the band play different tunes but until that gaping hole below the waterline is addressed the results will be the same.

You are 100% correct and if we could just educate our fanbase more we could have a positive impact on Snyder, because like it or not we're stuck with him for now. There are other fan bases who stay loyal even through bad times and right now we need to be one of them. If not Snyder will do something crazy again to get everyone's attention back.

[Warpath11]

And that is the predicament right there. Our owner wants to win but he wants money above anything. If the only time our fanbase is loyal is when they "think" we're a contender than he's gonna do what he has to do to keep fooling us. Whether that's bringing in some big name coach or signing some big name player. We all will complain afterwards, when it doesn't work, but we won't support a team that is building.

To Dan Snyder 150 million to two players is a drop in the bucket for getting over $15 million/game from 92,000 delusional fans. /sigh

[IrepDC]

To Dan Snyder 150 million to two players is a drop in the bucket for getting over $15 million/game from 92,000 delusional fans. /sigh

But hey we can't complain because those are the types of moves the majority of us respond to

[Phixius]

This team doesn't rebuild at all. You can't just hire a Jim Zorn and don't give him anything to work with. Cerrato not addressing the OL has really hurt this team. Landry has a ego where he only cares about laying someone out and rather than regrouping with the defense, he's all up in the other teams face running his mouth. Signing DeAngelo Hall was a big mistake. I wasn't too pleased with this move from the first place and knew it was going to blow up in Snyder's face. Albert can't play a down without injuring himself. Carlos hasn't shown much progress in the last two years. The team just trades draft picks with an mentality that they want players that have proven themselves. These veterans just want a paycheck and they know Snyder is dumb enough to give them what they want so they can just moped around all season long.


This team is poorly run. The Redskins are still stuck with Vinny and Snyder too naive and stubborn to realize how Cerrato and his involvement is ruining the team. It's been 10 years. If it's not working now, it never will.

[boofMcboof]

IrepDC, you need to stop. You're stereotyping and most us have a longer history of following football and the Redskins than you have. Just because you know a couple NFL players doesn't mean you have any more of a handle of winning or building an organization then we do.

[Skins n' Bones]

I would not be against a true re-building situations (really how much are a few 4-12 seasons different than 7-9 or 8-8??). Having said that if Dan Snyder does such a thing he may loose a lot of money out of pocket as some in the fanbase will be pissed after a few season of 3 or 4 wins. Dan likes his money so that may never be an option for us we will always be a player or two away...

There never is a true rebuilding anymore in the NFL. Teams are so close that they can go from a last place losing team one year and deep into the playoffs the next. Just a few games can make the difference between the two. But with that said, I agree wholeheartedly with the OP and have been saying the same thing. The most important thing the Redskins ownership and fanbase need to use right now is patience!

And to the people that say Snyder needs to hire a "football guy" or a "real GM", Matt Millen was a real GM that was a football guy...how'd Detroit do with that the past few years?? It's not that simple.

What sucks living in MD is that the ****ing Ravens seem to have it right and I get reminded of it every day....so if they do replace Vinny, they should do it with whomever is second in command to Newsome.

[SkinsHokieFan]

IRepDC

You seem to think what we are doing now is "building a team"

Signing a 100 million dollar d-tackle is not building a team

Having a coach come in and put in a passing system that does not fit his QB is not building a team

Having the oldest roster in the NFL is not building a team

Having no depth is not building a team

Have no identity is not building a team

The team needs to be blown up, from Team President/GM all the way down to the water boy to change the culture, establish an identity and bring in young players who can be molded

Right now, none of that exists. You have a mediocre team that will at best go 8-8 again this year and is not improving

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

But hey we can't complain because those are the types of moves the majority of us respond to

Bull****!

During the glory years, the Skins had, like, three #1 picks in total. We never begged for a quick fix to anything. We were willing to wait for young QBs to develop on IR. We understood that there was a plan and it would work.

Snyder is the one who started this "The future is yesterday!" nonsense. Maybe we got sucked into it but don't act like this is something we ever demanded.

Just because you grew up during the Snyder Era, don't think that this is the way it has always been.

And it's not like we had a stable owner back then either. The man was 106 and was doing cocaine off the naked asses of Colombian hookers. But he knew when to back off and let his GM be a GM and let his coach coach.

And he never let the hookers onto the field before the game to bother his coach. But for some reason, Tom Cruise can reccomend a double reverse pass.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Bull****!

During the glory years, the Skins had, like, three #1 picks in total. We never begged for a quick fix to anything. We were willing to wait for young QBs to develop on IR. We understood that there was a plan and it would work.

Snyder is the one who started this "The future is yesterday!" nonsense. Maybe we got sucked into it but don't act like this is something we ever demanded.

Just because you grew up during the Snyder Era, don't think that this is the way it has always been.

I don't think any of the fans have ever demanded the team be run like this.

Honestly, its clear IRepDC doesn't have a clue what he is talking about with this thread

[ciresolstice]

Oh blow it out of your....

lol

If we felt like the proper moves were made and they were building towards something the right way I'd take the growing pains...that isn't happening here.

[Skins n' Bones]

IrepDC, you need to stop. You're stereotyping and most us have a longer history of following football and the Redskins than you have. Just because you know a couple NFL players doesn't mean you have any more of a handle of winning or building an organization then we do.

Well, I'm older and I agree with him. It's a matter of showing a little patience and the organization not making any rash decisions like they have in the past. Are we gonna get frustrated and mad when they play like they did yesterday? Heck yeah!! But let's wait and see how Zorn does at least this full season if not another one before passing judgement. Hey, in the old days, coaches were usually given at least a couple years to learn and prove themselves...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't think any of the fans have ever demanded the team be run like this.

Honestly, its clear IRepDC doesn't have a clue what he is talking about with this thread

I will freely admit that I bought into the 2000 Redskins in a big big way - and I say this as someone who LOVED the 1999 Redskins. So, yea, Snyder suckered me early on. We seemed like a good team that he was going to make invincible. It took me three months to figure out what a fool I was.

I've never asked that we keep trying to make that approach work. I want us run like the Steelers or Ravens who seem to have an endless supply of young talented players. And - unlike them - I want Snyder to use his money only when Plan A is not working. If you go two years and don't have a good young RB yet, then sign a free agent to a reasonable deal.

Mainly, I want him to use his money to reward the studs that have won for him in the past. I want to find the next Joe Flacco and then pay him Peyton Manning money after four years because we can. That's how you build a locker room that will kill for you.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Well, I'm older and I agree with him. It's a matter of showing a little patience and the organization not making any rash decisions like they have in the past. Are we gonna get frustrated and mad when they play like they did yesterday? Heck yeah!! But let's wait and see how Zorn does at least this full season if not another one before passing judgement. Hey, in the old days, coaches were usually given at least a couple years to learn and prove themselves...

I knew after a month that Richie Pettibone was a mistake. I knew after 20 games that Spurrier would never "get it."

[SkinsHokieFan]

I will freely admit that I bought into the 2000 Redskins in a big big way - and I say this as someone who LOVED the 1999 Redskins. So, yea, Snyder suckered me early on. We seemed like a good team that he was going to make invincible. It took me three months to figure out what a fool I was.

I've never asked that we keep trying to make that approach work. I want us run like the Steelers or Ravens who seem to have an endless supply of young talented players. And - unlike them - I want Snyder to use his money only when Plan A is not working. If you go two years and don't have a good young RB yet, then sign a free agent to a reasonable deal.

Mainly, I want him to use his money to reward the studs that have won for him in the past. I want to find the next Joe Flacco and then pay him Peyton Manning money after four years because we can. That's how you build a locker room that will kill for you.

We both know what the Steelers and Ravens do; they draft layered depth so that when a Casey Rabach leaves a Jason Brown takes over. When he leaves, another center comes in and fills the role fine

When Derrick Dockery leaves the Redskins, we try and move a tackle to guard or we trade 2 picks for a 34 year old guard :doh:

The Steelers sign Ryan Clark for cheap. The Ravens, can anyone name me their last big name signing?

I agree, if Plan A doesn't work you go out and sign a guy to fill the need. Had TO not been such a head case, he would have been the perfect example of an organization (the Eagles in this case) having been built right and simply adding the piece to put them over the top

Instead the Redskins try and assemble pieces, never build, never have layered depth, and throw stuff up against the wall

"Hey this Al saunders stuff didn't work, how about before we hire a head coach we bring in an OC who runs the WCO"

It makes me wonder what the heck the point was in even interviewing Spags prior to promoting Zorn. Zorn was already here, would Spags have wanted him?

[cphil006]

We started rebuilding when Norv came in. It's too stupid. Samuels was here when Norv was coach. The stench is still around.

We've got some darn good people. Haynesworth, Fletcher, McIntosh, Landry, Samuels, ARE, Moss, etc.

We spent too much in some areas and we can't sign guys for depth or other areas that need attention. The coaching SUCKS. They management SUCKS worse.

[boofMcboof]

Well, I'm older and I agree with him. It's a matter of showing a little patience and the organization not making any rash decisions like they have in the past. Are we gonna get frustrated and mad when they play like they did yesterday? Heck yeah!! But let's wait and see how Zorn does at least this full season if not another one before passing judgement. Hey, in the old days, coaches were usually given at least a couple years to learn and prove themselves...


It doesn't matter to me if Zorn stays until the end of the season. I think most fans would agree there is really nothing to gain to a mid-season change if the players aren't starting a mutiny. It was the incessant stereotyping from the OP that got to me.

I will say this though, Jim Schwartz's demeanor as a head coach in 3 games compared to Zorn's 19, is very striking.

[IrepDC]

I don't think any of the fans have ever demanded the team be run like this.

Honestly, its clear IRepDC doesn't have a clue what he is talking about with this thread

Look at the first page of this board. Look at any sports show where fans are allowed to communicate. "Blow this team up!". "Fire him!", "Get rid of this player!", "Sign this player!". "Hire this coach!" Then when it doesn't pan out we blame Snyder. You see it. You probably post in it. How you say I have no clue I don't get, but I won't get into a personal debate about comprehension issues. My opinion comes from what I see and read all the time.

[IrepDC]

IrepDC, you need to stop. You're stereotyping and most us have a longer history of following football and the Redskins than you have. Just because you know a couple NFL players doesn't mean you have any more of a handle of winning or building an organization then we do.


I didn't say anything about my friends in this thread so what was the point of bringing them up? If you disagree with my belief that this organization needs composure, patience, and stability I'd like you to explain. The problem isn't just Snyder it's the whole culture that has been created in DC.

[IrepDC]

Bull****!

During the glory years, the Skins had, like, three #1 picks in total. We never begged for a quick fix to anything. We were willing to wait for young QBs to develop on IR. We understood that there was a plan and it would work.

Snyder is the one who started this "The future is yesterday!" nonsense. Maybe we got sucked into it but don't act like this is something we ever demanded.

Just because you grew up during the Snyder Era, don't think that this is the way it has always been.

And it's not like we had a stable owner back then either. The man was 106 and was doing cocaine off the naked asses of Colombian hookers. But he knew when to back off and let his GM be a GM and let his coach coach.

And he never let the hookers onto the field before the game to bother his coach. But for some reason, Tom Cruise can reccomend a double reverse pass.

I wasn't alive during the Glory Years so yeah I can't speak on that, but you can't deny that this fan base responds to Snyders big moves. Even as people say they're fed up we ask for them. There's ten threads on the first page asking for another knee jerk move from Snyder. This fan base doesn't have the patience to groom a winner. We want to bring in a winner. We always call for the players and coaches who have had success elsewhere. Then when they come here and fail we wonder why. Maybe we give Zorn and this current group some time to develop. Let them build up the team and weed out the weaknesses. We may not win a Super Bowl this year but the stabilty may help a lot two or three years down the line.

[DCranon21]

This is what needs to happen, as I was thinking of a thread to start, but I feel this thread is sufficient to talk about it in here. If you became the owner of the Redskins, what are the 5 "football" moves you would make? Mine are in order:

1. Fire the current President/Gm, or whatever you call Vinny these days.

2. Hire a real GM that understands football, and let him handle the day-to-day operations.

3. Evaluate the F.O. personnel with the current GM, and let him bring in the people who understand football moves.

4. Evaluate the WHOLE coaching staff with the current GM and front office. Let them decide who should be brought on if a head coaching change is needed.

5. Evaluate the WHOLE roster with the current GM and front office. Let them decide who should be kept on the roster, who should be cut/traded, evaluate the draft, and FA's if there are some needed.

That's the problem with this organization and some fans, we never really went through a real rebuilding and came out successful after Gibbs I. But what would be your 5 moves as the Owner?

[Veretax]

We did not rebuild this last year. We didn't really rebuild when Gibbs came in either. We are due, frankly.

[Loyal2Washington]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we need to hire a real GM and have him operate on a 3 year plan which would include the hiring of a new coach, who then gets to hire his staff, the running of drafts, the re-signing of young key players and purging of old vets or high money players that do not earn it, the signing of FA as a means of complimenting the roster not overhauling it.
This is the only way to really fix this operation. The quick Shanny or Holmgren hire will most likely produce Gibbs II results and we all know Danny isn't going back down the road of the unknown when it comes to coaches.

This will result in a couple "bad" seasons, something Danny will never accept willingly, but if the right guy is hired can show signs of success and growth by year 3. The fans, the majority of them, have never been against a complete rebuild if the rebuild is down with competency and a well thought out strategy.

[bih]

If I stare at a turd for a year, it will not turn into a twinkie.


rofl :silly:

[IrepDC]

This is what needs to happen, as I was thinking of a thread to start, but I feel this thread is sufficient to talk about it in here. If you became the owner of the Redskins, what are the 5 "football" moves you would make? Mine are in order:

1. Fire the current President/Gm, or whatever you call Vinny these days.

2. Hire a real GM that understands football, and let him handle the day-to-day operations.

3. Evaluate the F.O. personnel with the current GM, and let him bring in the people who understand football moves.

4. Evaluate the WHOLE coaching staff with the current GM and front office. Let them decide who should be brought on if a head coaching change is needed.

5. Evaluate the WHOLE roster with the current GM and front office. Let them decide who should be kept on the roster, who should be cut/traded, evaluate the draft, and FA's if there are some needed.

That's the problem with this organization and some fans, we never really went through a real rebuilding and came out successful after Gibbs I. But what would be your 5 moves as the Owner?

I agree there needs to be some kind of plan along these lines. One that looks beyond one or two seasons, and sets this team up to be a winner for a long time. It's a juggling act for these owners though. Rebuilding isn't always going to work right away. You miss on one high draft pick and it can set your team back for years. And when a team is rebuilding and not winning as much a lot of fans jump ship and the team loses revenue. BIG problem for Snyder. And not only do our fans start to jump ship they start insisting Snyder blow up the team and make more knee jerk moves, which only sets us back further. But Snyder will continue to make those moves to win back those fans loyalty and money.

[bih]

This is what needs to happen, as I was thinking of a thread to start, but I feel this thread is sufficient to talk about it in here. If you became the owner of the Redskins, what are the 5 "football" moves you would make? Mine are in order:

1. Fire the current President/Gm, or whatever you call Vinny these days.

2. Hire a real GM that understands football, and let him handle the day-to-day operations.

3. Evaluate the F.O. personnel with the current GM, and let him bring in the people who understand football moves.

4. Evaluate the WHOLE coaching staff with the current GM and front office. Let them decide who should be brought on if a head coaching change is needed.

5. Evaluate the WHOLE roster with the current GM and front office. Let them decide who should be kept on the roster, who should be cut/traded, evaluate the draft, and FA's if there are some needed.

That's the problem with this organization and some fans, we never really went through a real rebuilding and came out successful after Gibbs I. But what would be your 5 moves as the Owner?

I like this a lot! as long as Snyder keeps his hands out of any moves other than finding a true GM that knows WTH is he doing! let him, the coaches do whatever they need to do to get this team succesfull again! this is what we are missing, not the best players in the world but the backbone of the team! good post! :thumbsup:

[bih]

I agree there needs to be some kind of plan along these lines. One that looks beyond one or two seasons, and sets this team up to be a winner for a long time. It's a juggling act for these owners though. Rebuilding isn't always going to work right away. You miss on one high draft pick and it can set your team back for years. And when a team is rebuilding and not winning as much a lot of fans jump ship and the team loses revenue. BIG problem for Snyder. And not only do our fans start to jump ship they start insisting Snyder blow up the team and make more knee jerk moves, which only sets us back further. But Snyder will continue to make those moves to win back those fans loyalty and money.


yes thats the problem here! Fans react when we play like crap and he goes out and makes these dumb moves that only hurt the team in long run!

[IrepDC]

IRepDC

You seem to think what we are doing now is "building a team"

Signing a 100 million dollar d-tackle is not building a team

Having a coach come in and put in a passing system that does not fit his QB is not building a team

Having the oldest roster in the NFL is not building a team

Having no depth is not building a team

Have no identity is not building a team

The team needs to be blown up, from Team President/GM all the way down to the water boy to change the culture, establish an identity and bring in young players who can be molded

Right now, none of that exists. You have a mediocre team that will at best go 8-8 again this year and is not improving


I'm not saying that we have been rebuilding. I'm saying that the reason we never rebuild is because the fans and owner alike lack the patience for it to happen. Right now we have an aging roster and an inexperienced coach. To me, if we are going to rebuild now would be the time. Keep the nucleus of the team together and let Zorn find his strengths, and weed out the weaknesses. Blowing up the team will not put us in any better situation. A new coach. A bunch of new players. They'll still need time. Let's give these guys time, and hopefully continue to draft well, and this team will be a lot better off. If we lose some games along the line so be it. We need to do our best to remain loyal so that Snyder doesn't get the itch again.

[Squidley]

I would gladly accept 3-5 years rebuilding if I knew we could sustain success and respectability for decades. Fire Cerrato NOW, hire a professional intelligent GM and let him bring in a coach,and let that coach bring in his assistants and coordinators, remove any slackers or non-talents on this team. Basically tear it all down and start right this time form top to bottom, the team would probably be at the bottom for a few years till our draft builds up the team. Of course the big deal would be for Snyder to sit back and let the GM handle things.

[IrepDC]

If we end up firing our coach and trading half our draft for a QB we'll only have ourselves to blame. The one strategy we HAVEN'T tried is NOT making any moves. Please let's have some patience and act like we have some vision towards the future. If the team is going to be bad then so be it. Let them rebuild.

Well we did end up firing Zorn and trading for McNabb. The former I was okay with, and the latter I am still skeptical about. The majority of the post is still appropriate, though.

[WeBB15]

Moves like that I blame on the fanbase though, because we think we are one player away so our owner goes out and gets that one big player.

Most ignorant statement.
WE , the fans, never thought we were one player away, ever. If anybody, its the media who are the skeptics that Dan and coaches see and read, not our ideas. We always had about an average team, but then decide every offseason to focus on one or 2 players in core roster spots, while leaving other roster spots decimate and get old, add along the new Coaches and offensive coordinators every couple years, so there was never any real chemistry and consistency for more than 5 years especially in the areas that we needed consistency and patience.

[IrepDC]

Most ignorant statement.
WE , the fans, never thought we were one player away, ever. If anybody, its the media who are the skeptics that Dan and coaches see and read, not our ideas. We always had about an average team, but then decide every offseason to focus on one or 2 players in core roster spots, while leaving other roster spots decimate and get old, add along the new Coaches and offensive coordinators every couple years, so there was never any real chemistry and consistency for more than 5 years especially in the areas that we needed consistency and patience.

BS, last year I argued mercilessly with fans about how great we would be if we had a "real" QB. So instead of building up our trenches with those picks, we go out and get a real QB. Now we are in an even worse position than before- older and less talented.

[RFKFedEx]

Doesn't the term "re-build" imply that there was once a structure that now needs to be 're'-built?

I'm not sure what we'd be 'rebuilding' since there's been nothing built in 20 years.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

The fanbase would accept rebuilding if it was a true re-build, done correctly, with a team that drafts players, has a GM and team structure in place and an apparent plan

Agree 100%%!!!! Re-building is not having the oldest team in the league.

I would feel perfectly fine if we went 4-12 or 3-13 if i could see the re-building and youth on our team. All i see is mostly old vets who cant get it done anymore. That is not re-building!

[justice98]

If you look like you're rebuilding, then people will buy in. They don't even look like they're rebuilding. If you're really tearing it down and building it back up, your expectations shouldn't be that high. They came in thinking they might be able to scrape by enough to make the playoffs. That's the only reason you trade 2 picks for McNabb.

[skins4ever17]

If you look like you're rebuilding, then people will buy in. They don't even look like they're rebuilding. If you're really tearing it down and building it back up, your expectations shouldn't be that high. They came in thinking they might be able to scrape by enough to make the playoffs. That's the only reason you trade 2 picks for McNabb.


I agree. And now we realize we're even in worse shape.

We have to:

-Trade dmac for cutler. I'm sure the bears will do it.
-Trade off portis/haynesworth for AS MANY draft picks as we can

Youth.

1st round : Oline.

Trent Williams + Stud O line men in the 1st will improve our line tremendously.
Cutler will have time. Make torain starting RB.
Start Austin, Banks, Armstrong, and Moss + Cooley for WR.

[Shanny]

Why do they need to rebuild? The team is good enough as it is.

[tex]

Speaking strictly for myself, would be nice to see the team build through the draft and actually use their picks for the intended purpose vice swapping picks for players as they are want to do. It is understood that the team will need to plug a hole with a useful veteran from time to time but they should not mortgage the farm to do so.

The Redskins are in desperate need of several good drafts where they retain 80% or more of the players they pick before they can have the kind of success we all want them to have. It ain't splashy, but it works.

[wilburmarshall]

We need to rebuild. We need real leaders on this team. I am tired of people talking about Cooley and Daniels as leaders on this team. We have sucked while they have been our leaders. McNabb was a start, but we need to jettison some of the guys who have been here for a while. We need to totally change the attitude of our locker room. Out w/ the old, in w/ the new.