Does having Christmas as a federal holiday pass the constitutional muster?

[Rdskns2000]

Does having Christmas as a federal holiday pass the constitutional muster?


While Christmas has become a secular holiday, it's roots are still religious.

Wouldn't that be federal endorsement of religion? I would love to see a case on this go to the Supremes.

[Skin'Em84]

Why do you want to get rid of holidays???

Keep as many as we can, who cares why we get the day off.

Edit: I mean you as in people who would want to. Not specifically you.

[skinfan13]

this just in! Rdskns2000 hates it when families get the opportunity to spend time together!

How about we all start debating issues of ACTUAL constitutional importance? like the huge overstepping of authority the Federal government takes each day?

[The Evil Genius]

How about we all start debating issues of ACTUAL constitutional importance? like the huge overstepping of authority the Federal government takes each day?

Quick mawh, grab the guns. Revenuers at the door.

[Mickalino]

Does having Christmas as a federal holiday pass the constitutional muster?


While Christmas has become a secular holiday, it's roots are still religious.



You contradicted yourself.

It's become secularized because so many people are denying it's roots, and act like it was never religious to begin with.

By switching it around like they do, they are in fact denying its roots.
If they believed in its roots, they wouldn't change it.

If you're going to take away the religious aspect of it in every other way, then why treat it as a religious holiday, only in regards to whether it's a government recognized holiday ?

This nation's founding has Christian roots, but many people deny that.

I know I'll probably catch a lot of grief for most of these comments.

[81artmonk]

http://www.heckman.us/smilies/troll_feed2.jpg

Wow, another religion vs. everyone else thread. How cool :)

[spjunkies]

We need to work on New Years, I'm sick of getting that day off.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Awful thread.

[Mickalino]

We need to work on New Years, I'm sick of getting that day off.

You mean sick, literally, from all the drinking the night before :)

[wysknz1]

the constitution doesn't prohibit it.

[Burgold]

Probably not, but it's a cool holiday. The songs, pageantry, and story are great. As a non Christian, I appreciate Christmas and several of things it stands for.

[SnyderShrugged]

Does having Christmas as a federal holiday pass the constitutional muster?


While Christmas has become a secular holiday, it's roots are still religious.

Wouldn't that be federal endorsement of religion? I would love to see a case on this go to the Supremes.



you WANT the SC spending their valuable time and resources on something as trite as this? :doh:

[Mickalino]

Probably not, but it's a cool holiday. The songs, pageantry, and story are great. As a non Christian, I appreciate Christmas and several of things it stands for.

Good Point.

Whether you're a Christian or not, it's gotta give you that warm fuzzy feeling inside, when people are so hospitable and generous and friendly, that time of year.

Except on Black Friday, when they trample you to death, as soon as the stores open at 5am, in order to save $30 on the latest digital camera :paranoid: :doh:

[SoCalSkins]

The basis is the Winter Solstice. Doesn't get any more secular than that. Christianity made a religious charade of a secular celebration that was adopted by various religions throughout history.

[ljs]

Its actually an interesting point.
If it really is separation of church and state, then how can we have federally recognized Christian holidays?

[Koolblue13]

Who cares. I love the time off. Thanks Christ lovers!

Now, lets give days off to every other one of the Gods wonder days.

[Mickalino]

Who cares. I love the time off. Thanks Christ lovers!

Now, lets give days off to every other one of the Gods wonder days.

:hysterical:

Every day is a beautiful creation by God that we should celebrate, according to the Bible.

Therefore let's take the whole year off with pay

Except, of course, Redskins2000 - since he loves to work, and hates days off - let him be the only person working, to keep the economy going, while the rest of us take the whole year off. :)

[Koolblue13]

:hysterical:

Every day is a beautiful creation by God that we should celebrate, according to the Bible.

Therefore let's take the whole year off with pay

Except, of course, Redskins2000 - since he loves to work, and hates days off - let him be the only person working, to keep the economy going, while the rest of us take the whole year off. :)

Hey, if you love what you do, it ain't work, right?

I tend bar, I love hollidays. I work them all. Big bucks. I'll calibrate me on my days off. :D

[IONTOP]

Hey, if you love what you do, it ain't work, right?

I tend bar, I love hollidays. I work them all. Big bucks. I'll calibrate me on my days off. :D

Yep, the best "off days" for bars are the Sunday nights of Memorial Day, Labor Day, MLKJ Day, where most people have that monday off, so the weekend goes "Friday night, Saturday Night, Saturday night, Monday Night"

[Koolblue13]

Yep, the best "off days" for bars are the Sunday nights of Memorial Day, Labor Day, MLKJ Day, where most people have that monday off, so the weekend goes "Friday night, Saturday Night, Saturday night, Monday Night"

Yep, lets start giving them to the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans whatever.

We can stimulate the service industry and make every other religion happy at the same time.

[Larry]

Hey, if you love what you do, it ain't work, right?

I tend bar, I love hollidays. I work them all. Big bucks. I'll calibrate me on my days off. :D

Remembering once seeing a restaurant (Shells, in New Smyrna Beach) where, on the door, it listed their hours. And then, at the bottom of the door, read "Closed Christmas Day and Super Bowl Sunday".

----------

As to the OP's question (hey, somebody ought to actually respond to it):

IMO, it's like "under god" or "In God We Trust": Yep, it's unconstitutional. But IMO, it would take a really big jerk to actually take the thing to court and try to change it. And in the case of Christmas, I'd even oppose the guy.

[techboy]

Actually, no, I don't think it does. "Under God" is a close call (especially in coin form), but this is an example of the government actually singling out a specific religion and giving preference to it.

True, everybody tends to get the day off, but not necessarily on the day of his or her choosing.

Good luck getting someone to press the case, though. :)


The basis is the Winter Solstice. Doesn't get any more secular than that.

Please explain to me how the Winter Solistice is secular. Last I checked, Saturnalia was celebrated at the temple of Saturn, who is, I believe, a god of some sort, right?

Also, I'm a bit confused... My calendar says that the Winter Solistice is on December 21 or thereabouts. If we're celebrating that, why are we off on December 25?

[Rdskns2000]

:hysterical:

Every day is a beautiful creation by God that we should celebrate, according to the Bible.

Therefore let's take the whole year off with pay

Except, of course, Redskins2000 - since he loves to work, and hates days off - let him be the only person working, to keep the economy going, while the rest of us take the whole year off. :)

When I was working, I actually worked on Christmas- Half a day.

[Rdskns2000]

You can replace Christmas with:

Barack Obama Day- celebrate his birthday. Michele Obama Day- celebrating her birthday.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Its actually an interesting point.
If it really is separation of church and state, then how can we have federally recognized Christian holidays?

Out of necessity, take it away and see how many people take it as a personal day, try to run your businesses with 25% of your employees.

[skinfan13]

Quick mawh, grab the guns. Revenuers at the door. yupers mawh, I dun been founded out! I jus sum stoopid yokel who hav no idear bout that thar constitootuion. only them smurt liberal types knows bout that!

[Mickalino]

You can replace Christmas with:

Barack Obama Day- celebrate his birthday. Michele Obama Day- celebrating her birthday.

Messiah Fail.

I'll stick with the true Messiah, born on Christmas :D

[Jumbo]

uh...I uh...I'm not a Christian (as far as I'm told, and I think "they're" right)...and uh...I wish there was more secularism in government than less (but i'm not wound up about it) and I also wish there was somewhat deeper permeation (not in government) of long-standing religious belief systems (as well as agnosticism and atheism) besides Christianity in our society (all to hugely generalize)...but uh...I do really like Christmas.

I know I am to parentheses what Larry is to underlining.

[Kosher Ham]

I love the time I spend with my family. But other than that it's just another day.
I feel the same way about my birthday. That's my holiday. I have never worked on my birthday in my entire life.

I get what the OP is saying. And I also appreciate KBs view on it. Basically...Who cares.

It would be interesting to see someone challenge it, and the spin festival that would be certain.

[Prosperity]

yeah, but Christmas is awesome, if anyone ever sues it we can call it winter solstice and tell them to shove it

[SoCalSkins]

Please explain to me how the Winter Solistice is secular. Last I checked, Saturnalia was celebrated at the temple of Saturn, who is, I believe, a god of some sort, right?

Also, I'm a bit confused... My calendar says that the Winter Solstice is on December 21 or thereabouts. If we're celebrating that, why are we off on December 25?

Our Calendar is not that accurate. the winter solstice can fluctuate by a couple of days in either direction. Primitive instruments were not able to determine the movement of the earth toward longer days. Hence, the death/rebirth myths.

As far as Saturnalia, that was the same as what Christmas is, a rip off of other celebrations. The Winter Solstice is about the movement of the earth around the sun. There is nothing more secular than that. All of the fantasies, myths, sun gods and son of god myths are based on the movement of these stars.

[Thiebear]

As with smoking i'm not willing to give up the breaks at work just because i quit.
Same with Thanksgiving/Xmas/Easter/Arbor day

whatever you want to worship is great, just let me put up a tree and buy the kids jammies for the night before.

[Larry]

just let me put up a tree and buy the kids jammies for the night before.

Remembering once reading a piece of philosophy.

Every man, if he's lucky, will have his life pass through four seperate, distinct stages as he ages:

First, you believe in Santa Claus.
Then, you don't believe in Santa Claus.
Then, you are Santa Claus.
Then you look like Santa Claus.

[Corcaigh]

merry christmahanukwanza

[Mickalino]

merry christmahanukwanza

Dude, you left out 4 other religious holidays.

Bigot - Atheist :silly:

[Corcaigh]

Dude, you left out 4 other religious holidays.

Bigot - Atheist :silly:

What are you talking about?

Other 'religions' are secure enough that they don't need to hijack the Solstice, unlike the three I mentioned. :evilg:

[techboy]

As far as Saturnalia, that was the same as what Christmas is, a rip off of other celebrations. The Winter Solstice is about the movement of the earth around the sun. There is nothing more secular than that. All of the fantasies, myths, sun gods and son of god myths are based on the movement of these stars.

I understand you really like a day off on Christmas and hey, I don't blame you. :)

The fact is, though, from the very beginning, the celebration of the solistice was a religious festival. If you're going to remain the angry, sarcastic, bitter atheist secularist, and maintain intellectual honesty and personal integrity, you're just going to have to come to grips with this. :)

[Henry]

Out of necessity, take it away and see how many people take it as a personal day, try to run your businesses with 25% of your employees.

That's pretty much how I see it.

Technically I don't know if it's constitutional, but it is practical.

[SoCalSkins]

I understand you really like a day off on Christmas and hey, I don't blame you. :)

The fact is, though, from the very beginning, the celebration of the solistice was a religious festival. If you're going to remain the angry, sarcastic, bitter atheist secularist, and maintain intellectual honesty and personal integrity, you're just going to have to come to grips with this. :)

So you are equating all religions as the same. Fantastic. You finally came around.

Intellectual honesty with one's self coming from you? You have seen the light. Praise reason! You no longer hold a belief in Zeus, the tooth fairy, Jesus or other imaginary friends. Good for you. You are no longer thinking like an 8 year old.

[techboy]

So you are equating all religions as the same.

I'm sorry, but my religion-addled brain doesn't follow. Could you please explain how acknowledging that the earliest Solistice celebrations were religious in nature means that I have concluded that all religions are the same?

Please use small words and simple steps, so that I can be sure to follow. Thanks. :)

[Larry]

Proposal: If some major a-hole decides to make an issue out of the fact that the holiday is unconstitutional, I propose that we declare the day to be National Families Day. Since, frankly, I think that's the way everybody thinks of it, anyway.

[SoCalSkins]

I'm sorry, but my religion-addled brain doesn't follow. Could you please explain how acknowledging that the earliest Solistice celebrations were religious in nature means that I have concluded that all religions are the same?

Please use small words and simple steps, so that I can be sure to follow. Thanks. :)

Here is your previous quote:


The fact is, though, from the very beginning, the celebration of the solistice was a religious festival.

You are effectively claiming that because there may have been a religious affiliation with the solstice celebrations, that it somehow validates Christmas as a religious event.

In order to do that, you have to equate Christianity with those other religions to build on it. Irony is that you would actually be correct in that equivalency.

[techboy]

You are effectively claiming that because there may have been a religious affiliation with the solstice celebrations, that it somehow validates Christmas as a religious event.


I'm still confused. Let me see if I can sum up what happened.

You said that Christmas is actually the Solistice, which is secular.

I, in turn, pointed out that you are wrong, and that the Solistice was religious in nature from its very origins. It is in no way secular. You apparently agreed with me.

So, I have two questions:

1) How can you, as a fire-breathing secularist, stand even for a moment the fact that the government is giving preference to a religion (whether we sensibly acknowledge it is Christianity, or pretend that it's really just the Solistice, which we have agreed is still a religious festival)? Why are you not storming the halls of Congress?

2) In what way did I even try to validate Christmas as a religious event?

Bonus) If I follow your logic here, the Solistice is actually secular because it involves the movement of stars, a natural event you believe the ancients misunderstood as mystical. I further gather that you believe that every religion, especially Christianity, started in the same manner.

Should I conclude then, that just as you believe the Solistice is secular, you also feel the Bible is secular (being simply the misunderstandings of natural events by the religious nuts of the day, right?), and that you would then also have no problem with laws mandating daily Bible readings in the schools? :)



In order to do that, you have to equate Christianity with those other religions to build on it. Irony is that you would actually be correct in that equivalency.

I may be misunderstanding here. Are you suggesting that Christianity is simply another "dying/rising gods" fertility religion, based on the seasons?

[Prosperity]

does it really matter if religions celebrated solstice, everyone from European Pagans to Persian Zoroastrians celebrate the winter solstice. Saying that means it is inherently religious is analogous to saying that Christmas in inherently Zoroastrian or Pagan... fact is most people celebrate the solstice because otherwise it would be a very ****ty day.

[SoCalSkins]

I'm still confused. Let me see if I can sum up what happened.

You said that Christmas is actually the Solistice, which is secular.

I, in turn, pointed out that you are wrong, and that the Solistice was religious in nature from its very origins. It is in no way secular. You apparently agreed with me. ?

I pointed out your equivalency of religions. Whatever story that is made up to represent the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere is irrelevant. There is a factual underlying event that takes place.

The stories to account for that movement of the planet came afterward.



1) How can you, as a fire-breathing secularist, stand even for a moment the fact that the government is giving preference to a religion (whether we sensibly acknowledge it is Christianity, or pretend that it's really just the Solistice, which we have agreed is still a religious festival)? Why are you not storming the halls of Congress?

It would be the same as considering sunset as the chariot drawing across the sky. The inherent idiocy speaks for itself. It should embarrass the imaginary friend crowd.




2) In what way did I even try to validate Christmas as a religious event?

By claiming that the winter solstice was a religious event and that Christmas had its origin in that event.



Bonus) If I follow your logic here, the Solistice is actually secular because it involves the movement of stars, a natural event you believe the ancients misunderstood as mystical. I further gather that you believe that every religion, especially Christianity, started in the same manner.

Should I conclude then, that just as you believe the Solistice is secular, you also feel the Bible is secular (being simply the misunderstandings of natural events by the religious nuts of the day, right?), and that you would then also have no problem with laws mandating daily Bible readings in the schools? :)


Absolutely agree. As long as it is taught the same as Greek and Roman mythology with an emphasis on the fear of man in creating nonsensical stories to explain the natural world. Exposing the ignorance that it is built on is the first step to eliminating its hold on the masses.



I may be misunderstanding here. Are you suggesting that Christianity is simply another "dying/rising gods" fertility religion, based on the seasons?

It has stolen from many other religions, there are central elements within the fiction taken from the other dying/rising god fertility religions/stories.

[Mickalino]

Wow, that's a lot of techboy quotes :)

[techboy]

It has stolen from many other religions, there are central elements within the fiction taken from the other dying/rising god fertility religions/stories.

Since you're so concerned with logic, reason, and facts, I have to admit I'm a little surprised that you'd advance an outdated theory that no credible scholar takes any more seriously than the idea that the sun is pulled across the sky by a chariot. :)

In any case, I was curious if you could explain to me what I thought, but I guess you can't connect the dots for me. :(