WPC: Firing time

[JimmiJo]

http://www.warpathconfidential.com/?p=2140

Firing time

By John Pappas
Warpath Confidential Editor

It’s time for Dan Snyder to start letting some people go. After a 2-6 start to the season, and 4-12 since this point last year, the owner of the Washington Redskins should acknowledge that whatever formula he thought was going to work post-Joe Gibbs has failed, and fire the people associated with it.

Snyder has a mess on his hands, and it’s not getting any better. In fact it is getting worse. His team is horrible. The guy in charge of football operations seems incompetent. And his head coach is in over his head and appears lost.

Worse, the fans are more upset than at any point in modern times. Attendance is down, as is merchandise sales. There are websites dedicated to criticizing Snyder, and organized fan efforts are underway to boycott merchandise and publicly express dissatisfaction.

Click the link above to read the entire article...

[suze109]

Excellent article!

:applause:

Better wake up Dan ...

[budski]

Yes, Yes and Yes. This team is embarrassing.

[wysknz1]

My son just bought a new Skins hat. I didn't feel like it. No enthusiasm. I think it's time to do something. drastic measures for drastic times...

[Oldfan]

JJ -- He should start by firing Cerrato and Zorn. They are the two most responsible for the current state of affairs. This is doable as he could place Morocco Brown in charge of the front office, and name Jerry Gray interim head coach. Two guys considered competent.

If Dan promotes from within (Morroco Brown), it will only cause me to be more sure of my assessment that he is the one calling the shots not Vinny -- and nothing is going to change. I'll consider the move nothing but window dressing.

[IRISHSKINSFAN]

yes i agree the season is lost and the team is playing like they are stuck in quick sand

[maskedsuperstar]

If Dan promotes from within (Morroco Brown), it will only cause me to be more sure of my assessment that he is the one calling the shots not Vinny -- and nothing is going to change. I'll consider the move nothing but window dressing.

Sorry, Morocco Brown can do the job.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/08/AR2008060801681.html

I don't think Vinny listens to Brown. Its obvious.

[Veretax]

I think if Denver pastes us badly that we will see some heads starting to roll.

[Burgundy Burner]

Fire Cerrato soon? Sure. The infrastructure in place can handle his duties.

Fire Zorn? No. I agree that he is gone after this season, but firing a head coach with games remaining to be played never works. Too, an interim coach really has no chance to be a part of the team in the future.

[Burgold]

I agree. It's time to blow it up.

We need to cull this team of dead weight and "superstars" who haven't done anything. We need to get rid of FO people who continue year after year to ignore obvious weaknesses, make lop sided trades in the other team's favor, and put us in a salary cap position so tight that we are very limited in the choices we can make.

There are people I will be sad to see leave, but should go. Randy Thomas, Chris Samuels, Clinton Portis, Santana (I want to steal the nick name 50/50 from Rod Gardner) Thomas, Randle El, Jason Campbell (I don't know if you're good or not, but after five years I should know and though it may be unfair you never found a way to prove yourself).

And I wouldn't be upset if we got rid of Casey Rabach, Montgomery, Griffin, Rogers, Landry, Tryon, and a host of others.

I understand that that would mean the new coach and GM are screwed, but you have to get some professionals in here. Some high effort guys. Randle El used to be a very high effort guy, same with Moss and Portis. I don't know if it's age, concentration, or apathy but they aren't making the plays they used to. They aren't making the hard catch or sometimes the easy one. They aren't finding the hole or breaking tackles. They aren't making anyone miss. I'm not sure if you can or if it's possible to replace an o-line in one year, but I have seen teams play three rookies on the o-line. I believe the Giants did it one year and the Ravens another.

The culture, the attitude of this team needs to be changed. I saw Hall killing himself to get to the endzone. I saw Thomas really fighting for yards too. Cooley gives everything he can on the field. Doughty is a limited player and though that was a really dumb mistake, he's a guy you keep. HB Blades is another no flash player who is effective on the field. Use him. Since this team lacks the accountability or inner strength to bench non productive or badly playing guys, the only solution is to toss them. To change the team, we need dynamite and not a scalpel.

[The Rook]

Sorry, Morocco Brown can do the job.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/08/AR2008060801681.html

I don't think Vinny listens to Brown. Its obvious.

There was nothing in that 2008 fluff piece that made it obvious that Brown hasn't been part of the train wreck.

However, he would seem to be a step up from VC.








:helmet: The Rook

[TheGreatBuzz]

Fire Cerrato soon? Sure. The infrastructure in place can handle his duties.

Fire Zorn? No. I agree that he is gone after this season, but firing a head coach with games remaining to be played never works. Too, an interim coach really has no chance to be a part of the team in the future.


I agree. I'm all for firing Vinny ASAP. But I see no reason to fire Zorn. Go find a GM. Let him decide IF he wants to fire Zorn (althought I think he should). That would show that Danny is really out of football and leaving the decisions to someone who knows what they are doing.
:dallasuck

[Wyvern]

The logical step would be to find a well-respected GM to oversee the second half of the season. Then the rest of the team and its coaches would be auditioning to hang on. Meanwhile the GM would decide if he needed a complete overhaul or just partial retooling/replacements.

I don't think the Skins should try breaking in a new GM -- this is one time where a veteran is needed to right the ship, and run the organization from a football operations perspective. A newly promoted GM like Morrocco Brown might be hard-pressed to stand up to Snyder's pressure, where as an established GM wouldn't be risking as much to their resume, if a conflict arose.

I suspect Snyder wouldn't go for this -- but he needs a strong figure at GM, and a few years of making football operations the top priority over marketing considerations. But at this low point in both operations and marketing, what does Snyder have to lose?

[Burgold]

A hopeful sign is that Snyder does not seem afraid of big egos or people of stature. He hired Marty, Gibbs, and Spurrier who were all very successful coaches in their fields. So, other than seemingly Cerrato, Snyder doesn't have a history of hiring "yes" men. And Snyder needs someone with the will and the resume to stand up to him and someone who can step on a few players' necks without reprisal. We need to bring accountability back to the 'skins on every level.

[Chris0894]

rid of vinny and fix the oline...problem solved

[Ax]

To fire either Vinny, or Zorn, right now, would be a stupid move that would only add doubt to whomever might be interested in the job, that they would be given time to implement their plan. It might give Dimwit Nation a thrill, but it would contradict the "big picture/long run" crap they scream for, while urging Snyder to immediately add to his reputation of firing people before letting them finish what they started. Only someone interested in money, would take the job.

Brilliant. ****in morons.

The offseason will be here soon enough. Then, and only then, will be the time to make whatever moves will be made. Until then, suck it up, STFU, and either watch and wait, or find something else to do on gameday.

[IbleedBnG83]

My work filter picked up the site as "malicious"

[SkinsFTW]

I think if Denver pastes us badly that we will see some heads starting to roll.

Where are they going to roll when they are all jammed in their own asses?

This cluster**** was doomed for failure in 02/08 when the decision was made. GW/Saunders should have ran the team with a real GM on top. Of course that wasn't going to happen.

[JoeGibbs3.0]

Ax Snyder.

[Ax]

Ax Snyder.

Oh how I wish it were true.

[polywog999]

Originally posted by Ax.
To fire either Vinny, or Zorn, right now, would be a stupid move that would only add doubt to whomever might be interested in the job, that they would be given time to implement their plan. It might give Dimwit Nation a thrill, but it would contradict the "big picture/long run" crap they scream for, while urging Snyder to immediately add to his reputation of firing people before letting them finish what they started. Only someone interested in money, would take the job.

Exactly, changes now would not help the team and would only be self-serving to de El-mighty Dan, Mon.

Dan at this juncture, would do better to stay the course and work with what he has.




__________________

[Ant15fromNJ]

I have never felt so bad to be a redskins fan.

[tex]

But at this low point in both operations and marketing, what does Snyder have to lose?

Snyder's malignant ego demands that he work the controls of this football debacle. For a top-of-the line GM to be effect the GM must take over the reins. Control of his plaything is what Snyder stands to lose. That is why this team sucks and will continue to suck until either Snyder sells the team or he suddenly finds humility. Given Riggo's statements about the man and reports of "worker orientation meetings" here on this forum seems a change in ownership is the only hope. Since hope is not a plan, we, the fans, are doomed.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeu3uln/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/upsidedown.jpg

[ouvan59]

There was nothing in that 2008 fluff piece that made it obvious that Brown hasn't been part of the train wreck.



I was thinking the same thing. What exactly is Morocco Brown's claim to fame? Rashied Davis? 14 unnamed Bears? I'm not saying he might not be the answer but I see almost no evidence that he would be. The guy just starting working in football this decade.

[BAFGA]

Morocco Brown might be a step up from Vinny, but so is a houseplant. Anyone in the front office right now would just still be doing Snyder's bidding.

Promotions from within to me equals another puppet regime.

[bikie]

The guy in charge of football operations seems incompetent.

seems incompetent? what does a guy have to do these days to be incompetent?

I agree however that we should just get on with our coaching and GM search now... lets get a leg up on all the other teams that are going to be interviewing candidates... the season is lost, there is nothing left to salvage or evaluate... let the off-season begin...

[McD5]

Good article, but no Morocco Brown or Scott Campbell bs.

We don't need either of the low-talent, yes Danny, peons having anything to do with this franchise.

Neither has proven that they deserve a job in the UFL, let alone in Washington.

[fansince62]

If Dan promotes from within (Morroco Brown), it will only cause me to be more sure of my assessment that he is the one calling the shots not Vinny -- and nothing is going to change. I'll consider the move nothing but window dressing.

agree 1000%

Snyder has two problems: rebuilding the franchise; resurrecting his image. he loses on the latter....if...as you say...he promotes from within. but...my sense was the OP was only stating this would be for the remainder of the season only as a signal that the change process was underway and to expedite finding a whole new team to take over soon after this debacle of a season ends......kinda like a turn-over in administrations in which some senior officials hang on for 2-3 mos to smooth th transition process.

[suze109]

agree 1000%

Snyder has two problems: rebuilding the franchise; resurrecting his image. he loses on the latter....if...as you say...he promotes from within. but...my sense was the OP was only stating this would be for the remainder of the season only as a signal that the change process was underway and to expedite finding a whole new team to take over soon after this debacle of a season ends......kinda like a turn-over in administrations in which some senior officials hang on for 2-3 mos to smooth th transition process.

Precisely! Seems a lot of people are posting without fully reading what was written ... :doh:

[wvtbred]

Christmas is coming so continue to hit him where it hurts. Don't buy any Redskin merch for Christmas. That means NONE as in zero.

[TheLongshot]

If Dan promotes from within (Morroco Brown), it will only cause me to be more sure of my assessment that he is the one calling the shots not Vinny -- and nothing is going to change. I'll consider the move nothing but window dressing.

I guess fans want to get rid of promising people in the FO if it gives them the warm and fuzzys that Snyder isn't "meddling", despite the fact that there is absolutely no sign that he is meddling. I guess some fans will always feel the answer will be outside the organization. If anything, it is continuous change and upheaval that has been the downfall of this organization.

While there are games, there are always chances for the team to turn things around. The fact that the team was able to manage some offense in the second half and that the team isn't giving up on the coach tells me that at least they are hanging in there. If Zorn wins some games down the stretch, what does the team do? It is enough for Zorn to keep his job?

Personally, it is going to be tough to not fire someone, particularly since the fanbase wants blood. I think as usual, Vinny will be the fall guy. But, if Zorn proves that he should keep his job, it might not make sense to go outside the organization.

BTW, Brown has only been here for two years. It isn't like he's been here the whole run since Snyder bought the team. So saying this is rather ignorant of you.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Fire everyone but the punter, and a couple guys on defense.

[ECU-ALUM]

Best Article I have read here...it says it all. :D

[fansince62]

I guess fans want to get rid of promising people in the FO if it gives them the warm and fuzzys that Snyder isn't "meddling", despite the fact that there is absolutely no sign that he is meddling. I guess some fans will always feel the answer will be outside the organization. If anything, it is continuous change and upheaval that has been the downfall of this organization.

While there are games, there are always chances for the team to turn things around. The fact that the team was able to manage some offense in the second half and that the team isn't giving up on the coach tells me that at least they are hanging in there. If Zorn wins some games down the stretch, what does the team do? It is enough for Zorn to keep his job?

Personally, it is going to be tough to not fire someone, particularly since the fanbase wants blood. I think as usual, Vinny will be the fall guy. But, if Zorn proves that he should keep his job, it might not make sense to go outside the organization.

BTW, Brown has only been here for two years. It isn't like he's been here the whole run since Snyder bought the team. So saying this is rather ignorant of you.


then you don't get it...that is all I can conclude. the whole organization needs to be blown up and all vestiges of the past cleaned out. Snyder has to bring in people who have no links to the organization: independent, successful professionals who can rebuild the culture/frachise from the gorund up. the culture cannot be rebuilt by people who have been shaped by it.

that is what you do when you are working to overcome ABJECT FAILURE.

[Buford]

Vinny being gone would be a good step, and would buy good will through the end of the season.

Then its up to Mr. Snyder to make the right moves...and then get out of the picture.

[ECU-ALUM]

Vinny being gone would be a good step, and would buy good will through the end of the season.

Then its up to Mr. Snyder to make the right moves...and then get out of the picture.

Ding-Ding-Ding...stopping calling listeners we have a WINNER! (+1)

[That Redskins Fan]

vinny and zorn could/should be gone

in the coming weeks amd long overdue imo

[McD5]

I guess fans want to get rid of promising people in the FO if it gives them the warm and fuzzys that Snyder isn't "meddling", despite the fact that there is absolutely no sign that he is meddling. I guess some fans will always feel the answer will be outside the organization. If anything, it is continuous change and upheaval that has been the downfall of this organization.

While there are games, there are always chances for the team to turn things around. The fact that the team was able to manage some offense in the second half and that the team isn't giving up on the coach tells me that at least they are hanging in there. If Zorn wins some games down the stretch, what does the team do? It is enough for Zorn to keep his job?

Personally, it is going to be tough to not fire someone, particularly since the fanbase wants blood. I think as usual, Vinny will be the fall guy. But, if Zorn proves that he should keep his job, it might not make sense to go outside the organization.

BTW, Brown has only been here for two years. It isn't like he's been here the whole run since Snyder bought the team. So saying this is rather ignorant of you.

Fail.

Neither Brown nor Campbell have proven anything. Not one thing.

Except that they are involved with a loser. In turn, they get accustomed to losing.

No more losers. We need winners.

Purge it. All of it.

[Oldfan]

I guess fans want to get rid of promising people in the FO if it gives them the warm and fuzzys that Snyder isn't "meddling", despite the fact that there is absolutely no sign that he is meddling.

I can't make sense of this. Who wants to get rid of promising people?

As for Snyder meddling, knowing the personalities involved and their situations, I'm reasonably confident that Dan didn't meddle much with Gibbs and I'm next to certain he's pulling Vinny's strings.

I
guess some fans will always feel the answer will be outside the organization. If anything, it is continuous change and upheaval that has been the downfall of this organization.

Disagree. It is the lack of brainpower combined with football experience that keeps this organization mediocre.


While there are games, there are always chances for the team to turn things around. The fact that the team was able to manage some offense in the second half and that the team isn't giving up on the coach tells me that at least they are hanging in there. If Zorn wins some games down the stretch, what does the team do? It is enough for Zorn to keep his job?

My prediction is that the next stupid move will be either Gruden or Shanahan.


BTW, Brown has only been here for two years. It isn't like he's been here the whole run since Snyder bought the team. So saying this is rather ignorant of you.

This makes no sense given the remark you quoted. I'm saying essentially that promoting from within would likely be a sign of change nothing. Dan will still be making the big decisions.

[TheLongshot]

then you don't get it...that is all I can conclude. the whole organization needs to be blown up and all vestiges of the past cleaned out. Snyder has to bring in people who have no links to the organization: independent, successful professionals who can rebuild the culture/frachise from the gorund up. the culture cannot be rebuilt by people who have been shaped by it.

that is what you do when you are working to overcome ABJECT FAILURE.

Been there, done that. In fact, I'd say our issue is that we've had far too much change throughout the organization: turn over the roster, turn over the coaches, turn over who runs the FO. That has ALL happened in the past 10 years multiple times. It is hard to build anything under those conditions.

I'd also say that no football executive is "independent". Everyone has to answer to the owner and answer for his decisions.

[TheLongshot]

I can't make sense of this. Who wants to get rid of promising people?

You seem to want to ignore people we have in the organization simply because of guilt by association. No matter the guy has only been here two years and isn't much responsible for the mess that we have here.


As for Snyder meddling, knowing the personalities involved and their situations, I'm reasonably confident that Dan didn't meddle much with Gibbs and I'm next to certain he's pulling Vinny's strings.

Wait, didn't you give Vinny credit for selecting the WCO? Would that be something that Snyder came up with?

I think it is bloody obvious that just about every decision in the past couple of years has Vinny's fingerprints all over it, including how he handled Zorn. I think Sonny really articulated my thoughts on that matter.


I Disagree. It is the lack of brainpower combined with football experience that keeps this organization mediocre.

You can disagree all you want, but it is hard to build anything coherent if you are changing everything every couple of years. Snyder this time around at least learned that you need some continuity. We'll see what direction he wants to go in at the end of the season.


This makes no sense given the remark you quoted. I'm saying essentially that promoting from within would likely be a sign of change nothing. Dan will still be making the big decisions.

If you mean that he will be involved with hiring the head coach and negotiating contracts with big name FAs, you are correct, that probably won't change. But, if he's doing this hand-in-hand with his football people (which is really what the big change was in this go-around), there isn't much issue with that. While Snyder was involved with hiring Zorn, Vinny was very much involved with that decision. While he was involved with signing Haynesworth, that decision wasn't made in a vacuum, since Blache expressed the need for a stud DT the previous year.

Change has already happened. You are just blind to it right now.

[Forever21]

That was a well written article.

I didn't agree about firings midseason before reading that. But now at 2-6 it would be about a gesture to the fans that change is truly...finally...coming.

We're not going to make the playoffs or even fight for them. Maybe midseason firing to show everyone that things are changing would be good. Might bring some seriously negative and disenchanted fans back at least a little bit.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

To fire either Vinny, or Zorn, right now, would be a stupid move that would only add doubt to whomever might be interested in the job, that they would be given time to implement their plan. It might give Dimwit Nation a thrill, but it would contradict the "big picture/long run" crap they scream for, while urging Snyder to immediately add to his reputation of firing people before letting them finish what they started. Only someone interested in money, would take the job.

Brilliant. ****in morons.

The offseason will be here soon enough. Then, and only then, will be the time to make whatever moves will be made. Until then, suck it up, STFU, and either watch and wait, or find something else to do on gameday.


:hysterical:

You're so cold AX.

As for Longshot, I can understand being objective champ but the constant nieve assertions are above and beyond buddy.

As many have already said, this whole organization needs to be dismantled (including the disposal of Gibbs' players)! I am not for the hoopla that an established GM needs to be hired... but someone with balls who is not afraid to tell an afluent midget that he needs to come back down to Earth would be the ideal scenario.

[bird_1972]

Oh how I wish it were true.

I pray he starts defaulting on loans and is forced to sell.

[Oldfan]

You seem to want to ignore people we have in the organization simply because of guilt by association. No matter the guy has only been here two years and isn't much responsible for the mess that we have here.

That's an absurd interpretation of what I wrote.


Wait, didn't you give Vinny credit for selecting the WCO? Would that be something that Snyder came up with?Does it really matter whose idea it was originally? Dan had the final say and he didn't just rubber stamp it.


I think it is bloody obvious that just about every decision in the past couple of years has Vinny's fingerprints all over it, including how he handled Zorn. I think Sonny really articulated my thoughts on that matter.I don't believe that Vinny so much as orders Chinese take out without Dan's full approval.


You can disagree all you want, but it is hard to build anything coherent if you are changing everything every couple of years. Snyder this time around at least learned that you need some continuity. We'll see what direction he wants to go in at the end of the season.Why would you want to maintain continuity with people who lack the experience or intelligence to make sound decisions? Who do we have in the orgainzation who can compete with Belichick's combination of intelligence and football experience as a basis for decision making, for example? Dan? Vinny? Morroco Brown?


Change has already happened. You are just blind to it right now.I don't want change just for the sake of change. I want better decision making which requires someone with football coaching experience who is also very bright.

[ttr77]

From article:

And no matter how much Cerrato asserts he gave Zorn a playoff-caliber team, Cerrato soiled the bed by not addressing obvious needs on the line over the past two off seasons, despite injuries and major surgeries to starters.

JJ - I think you just helped the folks at NFL Films title the Washington Redskins 2009 Yearbook DVD:

Cerrato Soiled the Bed

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

That's an absurd interpretation of what I wrote.

Does it really matter whose idea it was originally? Dan had the final say and he didn't just rubber stamp it.

I don't believe that Vinny so much as orders Chinese take out without Dan's full approval.

Why would you want to maintain continuity with people who lack the experience or intelligence to make sound decisions? Who do we have in the orgainzation who can compete with Belichick's combination of intelligence and football experience as a basis for decision making, for example? Dan? Vinny? Morroco Brown?
I don't want change just for the sake of change. I want better decision making which requires someone with football coaching experience who is also very bright.

What's made you so grumpy OldFan ;)?!

[Mad Mike]

Sorry but firing Zorn now would be just stupid. It would accomplish nothing but create more turmoil and make prospective replacements more wary of working with Snyder.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Fire Vinny... NOW and focus on finding a real GM. THAT'S what good prospective coaches want to see. Doing it now would give the new GM time to evaluate the team and create a plan for the off-season.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... The only thing dumber than Snyder is the fans.

BTW, do you know how I know Vinny is an incompetent moron? Because like so many fans on this board, he actually believed playcalling was the problem. I expect that from fans. But I expect the guy in charge of the team to know better. :doh:

[Oldfan]

What's made you so grumpy OldFan ;)?!

Dan and Vinny's treatment of Jim Zorn pissed me off. There were smart subtle ways they could have helped the man improve. Instead, they chose to humiliate him. They get no breaks from me from here on.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I guess fans want to get rid of promising people in the FO if it gives them the warm and fuzzys that Snyder isn't "meddling", despite the fact that there is absolutely no sign that he is meddling. I guess some fans will always feel the answer will be outside the organization. If anything, it is continuous change and upheaval that has been the downfall of this organization.


I don't know if Snyder is meddling. But Vinny hiring a consultant and then taking away Zorn's playcalling duties and giving them to the consultant is a "Snyder Move" whether it was authored by Snyder or not.

Snyder "meddling" does not mean that he is sitting the owners box with a head set calling plays. That's how Jerry Jones meddles.

Snyder has created a culture where CYA is the dominant theme. The entire braintrust is a large game of duck duck goose and you don't want to be the one who gets tapped. So Vinny says that the lineup is playoff caliber. Blache hides from the media. Zorn accepts his demotion but still wants to call plays sometimes. Portis blames the line. The line blames the FO. No one steps up and says, "I am in charge here. This is my mess. I will clean it up."

The Redskins show all the worst aspects of corporate America.

The culture is sick to its very core.

The only way to fix it is to bring someone in with full power to implement a plan. Gibbs was sorta that guy, but he really wasn't either. Because he wanted to work with Vinny and Danny and he wanted to bring all his old guys in and it turned into some weird collectivist mess.

Maybe there is someone in-house that can do this. But I think anyone who rose in this culture will have a hard time escaping it.

[Devastate]

If Dan promotes from within (Morroco Brown), it will only cause me to be more sure of my assessment that he is the one calling the shots not Vinny -- and nothing is going to change. I'll consider the move nothing but window dressing.

In the interim you can only promote from within, until the season is over. You're not going to bring in anyone of quality mid-season.. You guys need to get that thought out of heads now..

The article is suggesting to fire C/Z and promote from within to finish out the season.. This will give Dan more time to find suitable people in the offseason..

I do disagree with one thing in this article.. The only thing Dan should be doing this offseason is buying a REAL GM with REAL qualifications and REAL work history. Then take a vacation for the next year. The new GM should hire the head coach, DS should have NOTHING to do with this decision.

[Oldfan]

...BTW, do you know how I know Vinny is an incompetent moron? Because like so many fans on this board, he actually believed playcalling was the problem. I expect that from fans. But I expect the guy in charge of the team to know better. :doh:

I agree that blaming the play calling smacks of Amateur Hour, Mike. But, Dan and Vinny might just have used the issue to humiliate Zorn and force him to quit. It's a the kind of move you expect from cunning bastards.

[armada58]

If Dan promotes from within (Morroco Brown), it will only cause me to be more sure of my assessment that he is the one calling the shots not Vinny -- and nothing is going to change. I'll consider the move nothing but window dressing.

I think he was referring to Morrocco Brown as only an "Interim" VP. Not a permamnent one. I believe that league rules for interviewing coaches on other teams also apply to front office people, too. So if Snyder fires Vinny during the season, he couldn't interview..... say Chris Polian... until after the season.

Now, if once the season is over and Brown is named the permanent VP, then you would be ocrrect.

[Oldfan]

In the interim you can only promote from within, until the season is over. You're not going to bring in anyone of quality mid-season.. You guys need to get that thought out of heads now..

The article is suggesting to fire C/Z and promote from within to finish out the season.. This will give Dan more time to find suitable people in the offseason..

Can you explain? How would firing in midseason, and promoting from within, allow more time to find replacements in the offseason?

[armada58]

I do disagree with one thing in this article.. The only thing Dan should be doing this offseason is buying a REAL GM with REAL qualifications and REAL work history. Then take a vacation for the next year. The new GM should hire the head coach, DS should have NOTHING to do with this decision.

CHRIS POLIAN!! Please, please, please!! Hire Tony Dungy to run the football operations (Think Parcells in Miami). Hire Chris Polian to be GM. Then let those 2 work some magic.

................hey! A guy can dream, can't he?

[Vicious]

Fire Vinny Mid-season as soon as it's statistically impossible for us to get into the playoffs.

[armada58]

Fire Vinny Mid-season as soon as it's statistically impossible for us to get into the playoffs.

That would be three weks from now.....

[Alvin_Walton40]

Dan needs to improve his crappy image within he league before any search is conducted for coach or GM.

[Devastate]

Can you explain? How would firing in midseason, and promoting from within, allow more time to find replacements in the offseason?

Because his search and research can start now. There are things that can start now and be gotten out of the way.. Or else he can wait till the end of the season and to get started.. I'd much rather him get started now. You remember how long it took just to find a head coach 2 years ago? Imagine having to gut out a major portion of the FO and STILL need to hire a head coach. We signed Zorn on a whim. DS can't allow that to happen again

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Because his search and research can start now. There are things that can start now and be gotten out of the way.. Or else he can wait till the end of the season and to get started.. I'd much rather him get started now. You remember how long it took just to find a head coach 2 years ago? Imagine having to gut out a major portion of the FO and STILL need to hire a head coach. We signed Zorn on a whim. DS can't allow that to happen again

Well, I think many on this board are assuming we'll ultimately hire a GM who isn't currently here right now. Therefore, firing Vinny and promoted Brown really doesn't buy us any time unless Brown is going to be the long-term solution.

[Alvin_Walton40]

We signed Zorn on a whim

We signed him b/c no one else wanted the job. Dan was getting embarrassed. What credible candidate would want this job?

[ttr77]

We signed Zorn on a whim. D

Only at Redskins Park can a whim take 32 days. I'd hate to see how long it takes if they truly research the subject. :)

[flexxskins]

By John Pappas
Warpath Confidential Editor
http://www.warpathconfidential.com/?p=2140


And no matter how much Cerrato asserts he gave Zorn a playoff-caliber team, Cerrato soiled the bed by not addressing obvious needs on the line over the past two off seasons, despite injuries and major surgeries to starters.


As for Zorn, he has been rendered impotent by the demotion, and the widespread belief he will be fired at the end of the season.These are definitely my two favorite quotes in the article.:hysterical:

[MassSkinsFan]

Dan and Vinny's treatment of Jim Zorn pissed me off. There were smart subtle ways they could have helped the man improve. Instead, they chose to humiliate him. They get no breaks from me from here on.

They pissed me off too, but I'd suggest that they didn't so much choose to humiliate Zorn as their ignorance of proper management resulted in them humiliating him as an unintended consequence.

Of course I wouldn't put it past them to be so malicious, but I'm leaning toward astounding stupidity combined with sheer ignorance here...

[TheLongshot]

That's an absurd interpretation of what I wrote.

Why is it absurd? You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Does it really matter whose idea it was originally? Dan had the final say and he didn't just rubber stamp it.

Um, all owners usually get the final say in hiring head coaches. Before Beathard could hire Gibbs, Gibbs had to meet with JKC.


I don't believe that Vinny so much as orders Chinese take out without Dan's full approval.

Well, Dan's approval is implicit. It doesn't mean he's pulling anyone's strings.


Why would you want to maintain continuity with people who lack the experience or intelligence to make sound decisions? Who do we have in the orgainzation who can compete with Belichick's combination of intelligence and football experience as a basis for decision making, for example? Dan? Vinny? Morroco Brown?

Why do you assume that Campbell and Brown don't have those qualities? Unless there are some obvious signs of incompetence (and there isn't when it comes to Campbell and Brown), you can't say that with any authority.


I don't want change just for the sake of change. I want better decision making which requires someone with football coaching experience who is also very bright.

Marv Levy had those qualities. Unfortunately, it didn't make him a good GM for the Bills. You have made similar arguments about Gibbs, and there is no doubt that he made some serious personnel gaffes.


I don't know if Snyder is meddling. But Vinny hiring a consultant and then taking away Zorn's playcalling duties and giving them to the consultant is a "Snyder Move" whether it was authored by Snyder or not.

Snyder "meddling" does not mean that he is sitting the owners box with a head set calling plays. That's how Jerry Jones meddles.

Snyder has created a culture where CYA is the dominant theme. The entire braintrust is a large game of duck duck goose and you don't want to be the one who gets tapped. So Vinny says that the lineup is playoff caliber. Blache hides from the media. Zorn accepts his demotion but still wants to call plays sometimes. Portis blames the line. The line blames the FO. No one steps up and says, "I am in charge here. This is my mess. I will clean it up."

Funny, but Snyder pretty much said as much. Zorn takes responsibility for that as well and reiterates that he's working hard at trying to fix the issues. I'm sure Vinny could say the same, but there is little he can do about it now.


The only way to fix it is to bring someone in with full power to implement a plan. Gibbs was sorta that guy, but he really wasn't either. Because he wanted to work with Vinny and Danny and he wanted to bring all his old guys in and it turned into some weird collectivist mess.

One of the big problems with Gibbs was that there was always an expiration date on his coaching tenure. There couldn't be a plan that was THAT long term, and at a certain point he had to decide that a given year was the year. That is really what has lead to the problems of today. Vinny seems to have worked hard to build up some of that young depth that we lacked under Gibbs, ether by his keeping vets and not developing young players or by the trading away of picks.


Maybe there is someone in-house that can do this. But I think anyone who rose in this culture will have a hard time escaping it.

As I mentioned before, Brown has only been here for two years, during a time where the team has been trying to do the right thing.

[McD5]

As I mentioned before, Brown has only been here for two years, during a time where the team has been trying to do the right thing.

A caller in Iowa would like you to elaborate on "trying to do the right thing."

We haven't done much right. I have no idea why you would want to continue that.


And as far as giving the GM job to M. Brown or S Campbell, this isn't a default process.

It isn't like they get the job, because they are the least pathetic people in the franchise.


What have they done to EARN the job, over many other qualified candidates around the league?

What makes them the best person in the country to get this job?

Exactly. Nothing. Ship em out.

[Devastate]

Well, I think many on this board are assuming we'll ultimately hire a GM who isn't currently here right now. Therefore, firing Vinny and promoted Brown really doesn't buy us any time unless Brown is going to be the long-term solution.


Well when you get right down to it, he should be looking anyway, I think firing zorn and especially Vinny is a face saving move to please the fans.. Which in my opinion is paramount right now

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

As I mentioned before, Brown has only been here for two years, during a time where the team has been trying to do the right thing.

In the last two years of "trying to do the right thing....," Vinny and Danny

1. Ran the most ass-backwards, screwed up and incompetent coaching search in NFL history. This was so bad, it needs subsections, as they
a. Chose the offensive system for the team on their own
b. Chose all the coordinators for the new coach
c. Utterly failed to hire their intended target, in part because of a and b
d. Finally settled on promoting their newly hired OC to HC, mostly on Danny's whim.

2. They suddenly decided they were the NE Patriots and traded down, backwards, sideways and left in the 2008 draft. They accumulated 10 players and decided to keep them all. (Which is kind of amazing for a team coming off a playoff run but whatever). Of course, they used the three top picks on pass catchers - none of whom have really done anything. Their only real attempt to address the deteriorating lines in that draft was a D II guy who apparently can't dress for games. This led to

3. Trading for Jason Taylor in a panic. Trade picks for a guy who wasn't sure he wanted to play anymore...and then play him out of position. The only thing missing was Bill Parcells running Vinny's pants up his flag pole in Miami.

4. Spend an offseaon flirting with every cute QB on the market, which utterly destroyed your already unstable QB's confidence. Frankly, I was in favor of this. But if you are going to flirt with a QB, you have actually get them into bed in the end. We didn't. And looked like amateurs in the process.

5. Spend a gazillion dollars on the biggest name in free agency. In fairness, this actually has worked out. I'm amazed too.

6. Get a steal in the draft. Then play him out of position.

7. Jump into the supplemental draft, which always seems like a sign of impetuosness to me. Your milegage may vary.

8. Hire a consultant, like you are a failing motor company.

9. Publicly castrate your head coach.

10. Say that your franchise left tackle's potentially career-ending injury is mostly a mental thing.

Aside from that, the culture looks great.

[TheLongshot]

A caller in Iowa would like you to elaborate on "trying to do the right thing."

We haven't done much right. I have no idea why you would want to continue that.

Putting a football person in charge of football operations. Having him involved with the selection of the head coach. Building through the draft. Many of the qualities many here think is the "right" way to build a franchise.


And as far as giving the GM job to M. Brown or S Campbell, this isn't a default process.

It isn't like they get the job, because they are the least pathetic people in the franchise.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said that. What I said that they shouldn't be instantly rejected because their boss failed.

[zoony]

Snyder "meddling" does not mean that he is sitting the owners box with a head set calling plays. That's how Jerry Jones meddles.

Snyder has created a culture where CYA is the dominant theme. The entire braintrust is a large game of duck duck goose and you don't want to be the one who gets tapped. So Vinny says that the lineup is playoff caliber. Blache hides from the media. Zorn accepts his demotion but still wants to call plays sometimes. Portis blames the line. The line blames the FO. No one steps up and says, "I am in charge here. This is my mess. I will clean it up."

The Redskins show all the worst aspects of corporate America.

The culture is sick to its very core.

The only way to fix it is to bring someone in with full power to implement a plan. Gibbs was sorta that guy, but he really wasn't either. Because he wanted to work with Vinny and Danny and he wanted to bring all his old guys in and it turned into some weird collectivist mess.



Probably the best take ever on this situation. 100% accurate.

....

[bird_1972]

...

Don't forget the fact that we also telegraph all of our front office moves before we make them, thus undermining our bargaining position.

I don't know if this is Snyder's or Vinny's fault or both.

[Mad Mike]

Well when you get right down to it, he should be looking anyway, I think firing zorn and especially Vinny is a face saving move to please the fans.. Which in my opinion is paramount right now

So "pleasing the fans" is more important than doing what is best to fix the team?

Have you lost your friggin mind?

[Oldfan]

Why is it absurd? You seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

When you can't debate what I say, you want to make up what I "seem" to say.




Um, all owners usually get the final say in hiring head coaches. Before Beathard could hire Gibbs, Gibbs had to meet with JKC.

Um, we were not discussing just the hiring of coaches.


Well, Dan's approval is implicit. It doesn't mean he's pulling anyone's strings.

It doesn't mean he isn't either -- and we know Dan.



Why do you assume that Campbell and Brown don't have those qualities? Unless there are some obvious signs of incompetence (and there isn't when it comes to Campbell and Brown), you can't say that with any authority.

Neither has enough experience in the front office and front office experience does not equal coaching experience.


Marv Levy had those qualities. Unfortunately, it didn't make him a good GM for the Bills.

Levy was 80 when he became a GM? Belichick and Walsh seemed to do well.


You have made similar arguments about Gibbs, and there is no doubt that he made some serious personnel gaffes.

Joe wasn't bright enough to handle the job he held. He couldn't compete with Belichick.

[redskins55]

To fire either Vinny, or Zorn, right now, would be a stupid move that would only add doubt to whomever might be interested in the job, that they would be given time to implement their plan. It might give Dimwit Nation a thrill, but it would contradict the "big picture/long run" crap they scream for, while urging Snyder to immediately add to his reputation of firing people before letting them finish what they started. Only someone interested in money, would take the job.

Brilliant. ****in morons.

The offseason will be here soon enough. Then, and only then, will be the time to make whatever moves will be made. Until then, suck it up, STFU, and either watch and wait, or find something else to do on gameday.


Why would it be stupid? The 49ers fired Nolan mid season last year and ended the season better than they started. He should fire Vinny, Blache, Zorn and all the folks Zorn brought in. i'd even contemplate firing Danny Smith seeing that he allows Randle El to return his punts. Keep Sherm Lewis, Jerry Gray, kirk Olividotti and Bugel. Make Gray interim HC

[pjfootballer]

I don't think it's good idea to fire either at this point. Give them their walking papers at the end of the year. Most GM candidates are still under contract with other teams as are the coaches. The year is lost. Play it out and start from scratch in January.

[TheLongshot]

In the last two years of "trying to do the right thing....," Vinny and Danny

1. Ran the most ass-backwards, screwed up and incompetent coaching search in NFL history. This was so bad, it needs subsections, as they
a. Chose the offensive system for the team on their own
b. Chose all the coordinators for the new coach
c. Utterly failed to hire their intended target, in part because of a and b
d. Finally settled on promoting their newly hired OC to HC, mostly on Danny's whim.

Blame Gibbs for that for not giving his boss much warning that he was going to retire. That left them scrambling to get a plan together with most of the good candidates in the playoffs and the final one going to the Super Bowl.


2. They suddenly decided they were the NE Patriots and traded down, backwards, sideways and left in the 2008 draft. They accumulated 10 players and decided to keep them all. (Which is kind of amazing for a team coming off a playoff run but whatever). Of course, they used the three top picks on pass catchers - none of whom have really done anything. Their only real attempt to address the deteriorating lines in that draft was a D II guy who apparently can't dress for games. This led to

The draft isn't a department store. You can only get the players that are available, not the ones you wish you could have gotten. Also, denying that WR was a need is denying reality.


3. Trading for Jason Taylor in a panic. Trade picks for a guy who wasn't sure he wanted to play anymore...and then play him out of position. The only thing missing was Bill Parcells running Vinny's pants up his flag pole in Miami.

I don't think there was any question of his desire to play, just in the end a question of his desire to play outside the state of Florida. It was a rough year for both sides.


4. Spend an offseaon flirting with every cute QB on the market, which utterly destroyed your already unstable QB's confidence. Frankly, I was in favor of this. But if you are going to flirt with a QB, you have actually get them into bed in the end. We didn't. And looked like amateurs in the process.

That is, if you believe all the rumors, which I did not. I don't have much doubt we were interested in Cutler (any team with QB questions should have been), but I doubt the talks went that far. I think they were interested in Sanchez as well, but not enough to actually spend a lot to trade up for him. I think most of those rumors were a smokescreen to get someone to trade up for him and have one of the players we coveted drop to us (either OL or DL).


5. Spend a gazillion dollars on the biggest name in free agency. In fairness, this actually has worked out. I'm amazed too.

I'm not. It was a move the team needed to make. We needed a stud DT to make the pass rush go and he has done that.


6. Get a steal in the draft. Then play him out of position.

First off, that's a coaching decision. Second, with a guy that talented, I'd be wanting to figure out how to get him on the field as often as possible.


7. Jump into the supplemental draft, which always seems like a sign of impetuosness to me. Your milegage may vary.

I like the pick. He's going to be a good replacement for Daniels eventually.


8. Hire a consultant, like you are a failing motor company.

9. Publicly castrate your head coach.

The hiring of a consultant should have been done in the offseason. I thought after last season that Zorn needed an experienced hand on his staff. As for the second, it hasn't been as bad as the media has made it out to be, but it still wasn't the smoothest move by Vinny.


10. Say that your franchise left tackle's potentially career-ending injury is mostly a mental thing.

It mostly is. I doubt his situation is much different than it was before he got the stinger. He's been dealing with this for a good part of his life, but it became a reality check when something happened.

[36HAMMER]

yes i agree,at least with the Cerrato part.they could begin to look at once for his replacement and then hire thme and give thme time to look over this mess.as i have said before,i can only hope.

[Devastate]

So "pleasing the fans" is more important than doing what is best to fix the team?

Have you lost your friggin mind?

Did I say that? No I didn't. Everyone wants Cerrato gone.. Him getting fired is what's best for the team AND the fans.

[TheLongshot]

When you can't debate what I say, you want to make up what I "seem" to say.

Because you said my interperatation was absurd. That is suggesting that I have the wrong impression of your opinion. It is an invitation for you to expand on what you mean.


Um, we were not discussing just the hiring of coaches.

We were in the section I was quoting.


It doesn't mean he isn't either -- and we know Dan.

Actually, I don't know Dan. I've never met the man in my life. We know about his reputation, which has been reenforced by the media. It doesn't mean that it is reality.


Neither has enough experience in the front office and front office experience does not equal coaching experience.

How many FO guys have coaching experience? I have a feeling very few. Probably Parcells, who seems to be one of the few who can turn anything into gold wherever he goes. Belichick and Reid are the few coaches left who have personnel control because most coaches aren't able to do both jobs well.


Levy was 80 when he became a GM? Belichick and Walsh seemed to do well.

Walsh was able to prop up the team for a couple of playoff runs before the 49ers fell back into the abyss for a while. I wouldn't exactly call him a success, tho.


Joe wasn't bright enough to handle the job he held. He couldn't compete with Belichick.

Not touching that with a ten foot pole.

[iMeast]

Wakey, wakey eggs and bakey. Fire VINNY!

HTTR

[BleedinBurgNGold]

I think if Denver pastes us badly that we will see some heads starting to roll.
I slightly disagree. I think if our most hated rivals the Cowpokes beat the brakes off us in 2 weeks that will be the tipping point for Dan. I dont think the Broncos will do it.

[BleedinBurgNGold]

yes i agree,at least with the Cerrato part.they could begin to look at once for his replacement and then hire thme and give thme time to look over this mess.as i have said before,i can only hope.
I agree! If for no other reason than the fact that its going to take longer than 1 offseason for $nyder to find a replacement, He needs all the time he can get to search for a worth while GM. I dont want this **** to be rushed at all.

[Burgold]

Blame Gibbs for that for not giving his boss much warning that he was going to retire. That left them scrambling to get a plan together with most of the good candidates in the playoffs and the final one going to the Super Bowl.



This is the one I disagree with most. A good front office better have a spreadsheet and grades on every coach and coaching prospect out there at any point in the season. Part of their job is to be prepared. They needed to have a list of who they thought the best up and comers or available vets were because surprises happen. You can get caught in the lurch, but you should never be caught with your drawers down.

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

I think we should just wait until the end of the season to fire Zorn.

FIRE VINNY ASAP

[HailGreen28]

The logical step would be to find a well-respected GM to oversee the second half of the season. Then the rest of the team and its coaches would be auditioning to hang on. Meanwhile the GM would decide if he needed a complete overhaul or just partial retooling/replacements.

I don't think the Skins should try breaking in a new GM -- this is one time where a veteran is needed to right the ship, and run the organization from a football operations perspective. A newly promoted GM like Morrocco Brown might be hard-pressed to stand up to Snyder's pressure, where as an established GM wouldn't be risking as much to their resume, if a conflict arose.

I suspect Snyder wouldn't go for this -- but he needs a strong figure at GM, and a few years of making football operations the top priority over marketing considerations. But at this low point in both operations and marketing, what does Snyder have to lose?GREAT idea on why it would be good to bring in a GM and give him complete control now.

I'm kinda partial to bringing in someone young with something to prove, rather than someone who the game might be passing by. But you make a good point on how someone more established might better remind Snyder what a GM is really supposed to do.

[Phixius]

Great article, although I think that Snyder should hire someone not currently in the organization as the GM rather than promote someone. I do agree that he should fire Zorn now. After he screwed up and hire him as the OC before acquiring a HC, not many coaches wanted the job anymore which resulted in Snyder offering Zorn the job.

Seeing how poorly the team is run and the way Snyder acts, not many people want to come here and coach unless they have full control of the staff and not Snyder who doesn't have a clue who's qualify. It's going to take longer than the last time for Snyder to find a coach.

Vinny, he just doesn't have a clue what he's doing. I bet Parcells is still laughing at this day for that 2nd round pick to loan Taylor for a year and the lazy effort in trying to address the OL by getting Mike Williams. There was no one worthy in the draft, so you get a player who hasn't played in 2 years instead.

All I know is whatever Snyder hires in the future, he needs to be patient. I don't mind a few losing seasons if the team have a new coach, players, and a new philosophy.

The Redskins need a new identity and start from scratch without Dan getting involved in football operations and let the people he hired to take care of that while he writes the check, be patient, and shut up. I don't care if it's not fun for him, it's not fun to lose so don't bother.

[polywog999]

I slightly disagree. I think if our most hated rivals the Cowpokes beat the brakes off us in 2 weeks that will be the tipping point for Dan. I dont think the Broncos will do it.
I agree that the cowpukes will prob. whip us good, but I think we have already crossed the event horizon of suck and losing to the boys will do nothing in the way of changing how we do things. We had our Waterloo against Detroit when we suffered the humiliation of all humiliations.

[HailGreen28]

Joe wasn't bright enough to handle the job he held. He couldn't compete with Belichick.You think Belichick could've achieved a turnaround with Spurrier's leftovers faster than Gibbs did?

BTW - You STILL aren't worthy to hold Joe's jockstrap. Just sayin'..... Gibbs had his hits and misses, especially second time around. But anyone saying two playoff appearances out of four years with guys that Gibbs picked and coached himself isn't smart, well that person talking junk is the one not "bright enough".

[TheLongshot]

This is the one I disagree with most. A good front office better have a spreadsheet and grades on every coach and coaching prospect out there at any point in the season. Part of their job is to be prepared. They needed to have a list of who they thought the best up and comers or available vets were because surprises happen. You can get caught in the lurch, but you should never be caught with your drawers down.

Gibbs was also Team President. Snyder needed to decide what he wanted to do with that position. They couldn't really look for a coach until that was decided and who that person was looking for in a head coach. (Along with Snyder, of course) One of the dangers of having your head coach also be the GM.

[BleedinBurgNGold]

To all those who say firing Cerrato or Zorn would only make things worse. Really? Sure we could do worst than we are now, but the drop off is only a short one. We are 2-6, looking very likely with the current structure that we will be lucky to eek out 1 more win. Will firing these two REALLY make things worse off? Come on!

[Stophovr6]

I want Vinny fired in a public forum. Just because I'm evil.

[polywog999]

I want Vinny fired in a public forum. Just because I'm evil.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

[Ax]

Why would it be stupid? The 49ers fired Nolan mid season last year and ended the season better than they started. He should fire Vinny, Blache, Zorn and all the folks Zorn brought in. i'd even contemplate firing Danny Smith seeing that he allows Randle El to return his punts. Keep Sherm Lewis, Jerry Gray, kirk Olividotti and Bugel. Make Gray interim HC
As I've said before, and so have others, if you want to land good people, they have to believe that when you give them a 3 year contract, that they'll actually get those three years to implement their plan. Based on Snyder's reputation, RIGHT NOW, there is no reason to believe this.

So how could reinforcing an itchy trigger finger help? It can't.

If he would fire his friend, some would argue, his BEST friend, in the middle of the season, WTF would keep him from firing a stranger at the first sign of trouble?

Better to ride it out, with everybody and their mother telling him not to, to show the potential "next guy" that he will be given the time to do his job. If people really mean it when they claim they're interested in the future, then this is the best way to start setting up, that future.

San Fran didn't have the same problems. Plus, San Fran's results are the exception, not the rule. And it's funny that you advocate firing the head coach, hiring an interim, and then constructing his coaching staff, for him.

Sounds like Snyder, right?

[Burgold]

Gibbs was also Team President. Snyder needed to decide what he wanted to do with that position. They couldn't really look for a coach until that was decided and who that person was looking for in a head coach. (Along with Snyder, of course) One of the dangers of having your head coach also be the GM.

Still disagree. It is negligent not to have a breakdown of every coach in the NFL. Maybe, it's not formally called, "The next guy in line" But you need to have every coach analyzed and understood and a quick sheet of who you are most impressed with and why at any point on any day.

Your point about Gibbs as Team President isn't invallid, but it is not reasonable either. Everyone knew Gibbs was gone in two years. Preparations should have been long underway. That's just doing normal good business.

[Thiebear]

It seems like we've taken some of the best personnel out there and said: NO NO, you'll not be starting at your position, we want you to do something else.... IDIOTS!

Years and years of this... multimillion dollar examples. I just want someone that evaluates the talent, and puts them in a position that enhances that. Not takes them down to mediocre but fills a need of the system currently running.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Still disagree. It is negligent not to have a breakdown of every coach in the NFL. Maybe, it's not formally called, "The next guy in line" But you need to have every coach analyzed and understood and a quick sheet of who you are most impressed with and why at any point on any day.

Your point about Gibbs as Team President isn't invallid, but it is not reasonable either. Everyone knew Gibbs was gone in two years. Preparations should have been long underway. That's just doing normal good business.

I agree with this. This organization was caught with its collective pair of pants around its collective ankles. I'll admit that Gibbs didn't give them a lot of notice, but a major part of Vinny's job description must be to be prepared for anything (injuries, retirements, suspensions, etc.).

I don't think Vinny is a bad guy and I believe he might be a relatively talented player scout. However, he's in way over his head running the football operations for a professional football team. The majority of what he does week in and week out should revolve around the long-term plans...not the day-to-day.

He gives off the impression (at least to me) that he thinks most of his job is over once the season starts with the exception of reacting to injuries. In my opinion, he should be working year-round to always keep a current list of coaches and players the team is interested in. I could be wrong and he could do this, but the moves we make would imply differently. Panicking and trading 2 picks for Taylor when we lost Daniels is a perfect example. There HAD to be a more methodical approach we could have taken.

[Skinsinparadise]

Actually, I don't know Dan. I've never met the man in my life. We know about his reputation, which has been reenforced by the media. It doesn't mean that it is reality.

We don't know for certain, I agree. But there is so much smoke to that fire its blinding. One of his closest confidants, George Michael, who came on 106.7 to DEFEND Snyder said among other things, that Dan not Vinny is really the GM of this team and that Snyder makes the big decisions about players, etc, and to boot has no clue why fans have any issues with him.

There was an article before the season if I recall in the WP that quoted an NFL personnel guy saying that people know that Snyder is the defacto GM of the team, and that's who they need to deal with ultimately. It's not the only time I have read that.


Then you have some odd stories that aren't typical for non meddlesome NFL owners:

Gibbs actually said at the time that they -- him, Vinny and Snyder all in unison make decisions, Gibbs had final say, but he did say that Snyder chirps in with his take, and I didn't get the impression it was just about contracts.

We read that Danny likes to go out personally to scout trips for rookie prospects, in particular I remember him looking at Malcolm Kelly -- later J Reid from the Post said it was Snyder who pushed hard for them to draft him, even though the Skins doctors had concerns about his knees.

We read at the time when they were pursuing L Briggs in a possible trade, that it was Danny excited about it, Gibbs came later to the table to discuss after it being brought up to him by Danny and Vinny.

Him calling Gibbs during the Vikings Monday Night Football game before they were about to play the Skins, and telling Gibbs after watching the game not to run on them in short yardage.

Haynsworth recently saying that he talks to him once if not twice a week about the defense and how it can improve, for 15-30 minutes.

Having lunch with Zorn once a week to get Zorn's explanation of how he will beat the next opponent. And also after the loss to the Lions, Zorn later said he would be spending LOTS of time with Snyder that week.

Hanging out in Vegas with Clinton Portis, and for that matter not rebuking him for criticizing his coach last season when it happened -- heck if anything Vinny in a way backed Portis by chuckling later on his radio show that's just Portis being Portis.

When the players lose (according to Arrington, and for that matter George Michael) Snyder hangs out in the lockeroom and scowls at them, and in some cases goes off on them

And we all heard the tape last year after beating the Eagles, he sounded like IMO a 5 year old as he chanted about the win.

All this is me just thinking about things that hit me off the top of my head. And I am not even getting into the pre Gibbs years where you get into tomes of stuff like benching Brad Johnson for Jeff George, etc. I agree with Oldfan that by all indications he wasn't the guy calling most of the shots under Gibbs but Gibbs by his own admission had him part of the "braintrust".

And yeah it does seem feasible to me that Vinny makes "some" decisions without Danny's interference. But to me there is little evidence that Danny isn't involved in GM type decisions, some of his big "defenders" even accede it.

Edit: And by the way when it comes to the offensive line -- go into 980 archives and find the pre draft interview with Doc Walker. Vinny AND Synder both said that the reports about the O line being a weakness is way exaggerated and they feel perfectly comfortable with the line they have -- and if I recall it was Snyder who specifically said that the Cowboys LT is years older than Samuels, and cited that as an example of the Redskins NOT having an old line.

[ttr77]

inny AND Synder both said that the reports about the O line being a weakness is way exaggerated and they feel perfectly comfortable with the line they have .

Nice recap...and I'd find it hard to believe that ALL of these stories were just made up.

And for the point listed above, ouch. Another example of the FO thinking that all the problems this year fall on Zorn.

[Goskinz0721]

Then you have some odd stories that aren't typical for non meddlesome NFL owners....

Great recap of the situation.

In trying to think back to the days of JKC, I don't recall ever reading that he was part of the decision making process in determining what was best for the team. At least under Gibbs (and under George Allen as well), it was JG who went to JKC to sell the decision on what it was they wanted to do. Ultimately, it was left to JKC to say 'Yay or Nay' on the deal. As I recall, this was mostly around the signing of high dollar free agent contracts (Riggo, Butz, etc.) But, in no way did JKC get involved in the day to day dealings of the team or try to determine what player(s) were needed. Sure, he would show up at practice. But I don't ever recall hearing that JKC influenced player personnel decisions or play calling.

As you stated (and through your examples) Snyder's hands are way too involved in the team operations. Which leads me to believe he will have a very difficult time luring decent FO talent anytime soon. Regardless of what is put into a contract I don't believe he would allow any stipulations that stated he could not be part of the process of player personnel decisions.

I could be wrong, but it's like a bad addition to meth for him. He won't/can't/doesn't want to shake the habit when all signs point to it being at the core of the problem.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The Mike Nolan ice cream stories may be the pinnacle of "The Snyder is an Annoying Douchebag" tales.

[RandyHolt]

There is no accountability. No one has been cut, no one has been fired. About the only demotion that occurred was Horton giving up some snaps to Reed (but still playing a lot). The other demotion was Kelly, whom i think was injured (very painful hand IIRC).

A token head rolling a few weeks back may have salvaged the season. As it is by not acting, we reward failure.

[Ax]

In trying to think back to the days of JKC, I don't recall ever reading that he was part of the decision making process in determining what was best for the team. At least under Gibbs (and under George Allen as well), it was JG who went to JKC to sell the decision on what it was they wanted to do. Ultimately, it was left to JKC to say 'Yay or Nay' on the deal. As I recall, this was mostly around the signing of high dollar free agent contracts (Riggo, Butz, etc.) But, in no way did JKC get involved in the day to day dealings of the team or try to determine what player(s) were needed.
Riggins and Butz were at least two players who negotiated their contracts, one on one, with Cooke.

Cooke also was the final word on any dispute between coach and GM.

Cooke hired Ritchie Petitbon as DC, not Gibbs.

[polywog999]

Riggins and Butz were at least two players who negotiated their contracts, one on one, with Cooke.

Cooke also was the final word on any dispute between coach and GM.

Cooke hired Ritchie Petitbon as DC, not Gibbs.
Cooke put his foot down before the 87 season and would not allow Doug Williams to be traded. He said "tell (the other team) that Doug Williams is too valuable." He got involved plenty.

[Goskinz0721]

Riggins and Butz were at least two players who negotiated their contracts, one on one, with Cooke.

Cooke also was the final word on any dispute between coach and GM.

Cooke hired Ritchie Petitbon as DC, not Gibbs.

But I don't believe it was JKC who approached Riggins & Butz and then told Gibbs/Beathard he was bringing them in. It was JG and/or Beathard who went with JKC with the names and JKC negotiated the dollars.

True, but didn't this ultimately cause the departure of Beathard?

I didn't know that. So did JKC recruit & sign Petibon and force JG to add him to the staff?

[ttr77]

Cooke put his foot down before the 87 season and would not allow Doug Williams to be traded. He said "tell (the other team) that Doug Williams is too valuable." He got involved plenty.

Well, when Dan refuses to trade the player that becomes the Super Bowl MVP the following season, I'll give him credit it.

[Alvin_Walton40]

One owner has 3 superbowl rings. The other one, well not so much.

[Ax]

But I don't believe it was JKC who approached Riggins & Butz and then told Gibbs/Beathard he was bringing them in. It was JG and/or Beathard who went with JKC with the names and JKC negotiated the dollars.

Not sure how exactly things went. But what we believe, doesn't matter. My point was that Cooke was involved, directly, in player negotiations. Butz and Riggins refused to deal with the GM, and Cooke never said, "He's in charge, so you have to."

True, but didn't this ultimately cause the departure of Beathard?

Yes. It was Joe wanting to keep his veterans vs Beathard wanting not to. Cooke chose Gibbs, Beathard said buh-bye.

I didn't know that. So did JKC recruit & sign Petibon and force JG to add him to the staff?

If I remember correctly, Petitbon was in place before Gibbs was hired

[Skinsinparadise]

Nice recap...and I'd find it hard to believe that ALL of these stories were just made up.

And for the point listed above, ouch. Another example of the FO thinking that all the problems this year fall on Zorn.

Thanks, I went back and listened to it again this morning. For whatever reason my computer doesn't let me do a direct link to that show.

if you want to go through the trouble, first go to: http://www.espn980.com/audiovault/

then click on the John Thompson show -- then you are going to see a category called Redskins vault, click on it scroll down and you'll find: April 25 -- Doc Walker with Snyder/Cerrato/Zorn Part 2 -- that's where you hear it

Snyder's statements includes calling Chris Samuels a "young" offensive lineman and feels very comfortable going into the season with him. Casey Rabach he says is outstanding and is "only" 31. Dockery is "a heck of a player". Snyder doesn't apparently know Randy Thomas' age, he said he's still only 30 or 31 (he's 33 and will shortly be 34). And he hints about being excited about Mike Williams. So average players to the rest of the league like Dockery and Rabach are "outstanding". And injury prone 30 something players are "young".

[ttr77]

Snyder's statements includes calling Chris Samuels a "young" offensive lineman and feels very comfortable going into the season with him. Casey Rabach he says is outstanding and is "only" 31. Dockery is "a heck of a player". Snyder doesn't apparently know Randy Thomas' age, he said he's still only 30 or 31 (he's 33 and will shortly be 34). And he hints about being excited about Mike Williams. So average players to the rest of the league like Dockery and Rabach are "outstanding". And injury prone 30 something players are "young".

When I'm listening to Dan or Vinny, I get the feeling I'm listening to a political campaign. Just say what you want them to hear, promise that things will be better, ignore the failures, and blame any problems on those that aren't in the room.

[Skinsinparadise]

When I'm listening to Dan or Vinny, I get the feeling I'm listening to a political campaign. Just say what you want them to hear, promise that things will be better, ignore the failures, and blame any problems on those that aren't in the room.

Good analogy, ironically political campaigns is how I make my living, but yeah I agree -- they are trying to sell you. Right now the sell is mainly coming from Vinny "its not me that's the problem" but Zorn.

[ECU-ALUM]

When I'm listening to Dan or Vinny, I get the feeling I'm listening to a political campaign. Just say what you want them to hear, promise that things will be better, ignore the failures, and blame any problems on those that aren't in the room.

+1...I like to believe though that the fanbase is seeing this clearly now and saying, "We ain't falling for that crap again!"