Orakpo's success: By the numbers

[Audible_Red40]

I was curious if anyone has any games taped to help me out here. Most notably the Chiefs game and the Bronco game.

I was bored and decided to look up specifically down and distance to see when “Rak” is having his greatest success rushing the passer. I have no clear-cut evidence and it’s pure speculation and memory, but it appears he would be playing defensive end on 3rd down and getting after the QB. 5 of his 7 sacks are on 3rd down in passing situations.

As seen below, against the Chiefs he recorded a sack on 1st & 10. Was he on a blitz from his LB position or did he have his hand in the dirt?

As for the other sack not recorded on 3rd down against the Falcons, it was 2nd $ 3 in shotgun formation. Same questions as above, Was he on a blitz from his LB position or did he have his hand in the dirt?

Dude is a beast and certainly has a motor and gets right after the QB.......

3-6-WAS 42 (5:53) (Shotgun) 9-M.Stafford sacked at 50 for -8 yards (98-B.Orakpo).

3-6-WAS 18 (:26) (Shotgun) 11-J.Johnson sacked at WAS 19 for -1 yards (98-B.Orakpo).

3-8-WAS 21 (14:24) 17-J.Delhomme sacked at WAS 25 for -4 yards (sack split by 99-A.Carter and 98-B.Orakpo).

1-10-KC 30 (7:34) 7-M.Cassel sacked at KC 25 for -5 yards (98-B.Orakpo).

3-3-WAS 47 (6:04) (Shotgun) 2-M.Ryan sacked at WAS 48 for -1 yards (98-B.Orakpo).

2-3-WAS 20 (:33) (Shotgun) 2-M.Ryan sacked at WAS 29 for -9 yards (98-B.Orakpo).

3-8-DEN 33 (3:12) (Shotgun) 2-C.Simms sacked at DEN 26 for -7 yards (sack split by 99-A.Carter and 98-B.Orakpo).

3-7-DEN 29 (:29) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 2-C.Simms sacked at DEN 19 for -10 yards (98-B.Orakpo).

(Sorry Mods, I should have put in the "Orakpo compared to...." thread which I intended to do, but am at work and got busy and clicked submit, please merge if you choose to do so, thanks)

[Koolblue13]

I'd like to know the breakdown of his position, by sacks.

[Redskins4ever]

Orakpo is a better DE than OLB. His hands should be on the ground on every down. He appears to be on pace for 11 or 12 sacks this season. If you remember those last couple of plays against the Rams, he almost got to Marc Bulger on every down. He belongs at DE on every play.

[Koolblue13]

Orakpo is a better DE than OLB. His hands should be on the ground on every down. He appears to be on pace for 11 or 12 sacks this season. If you remember those last couple of plays against the Rams, he almost got to Marc Bulger on every down. He belongs at DE on every play.

Do you know for fact, what position he was playing when he got his sacks or are you echoing the ES company line?

[GibbsFactor]

I'd like to see the yards per rush attempt to the strong side when he's lined up as Sam. Seems to get pushed back and can't make an impact on running plays (I know was expected).

Also, what's up with him in pass coverage? How many targets come his way, what's his success percentage?

He's a stud as a rush end, no doubt. If the other numbers are lacking or don't show improvement, the answer to his position is obvious.

[Koolblue13]

I'd like to see the yards per rush attempt to the strong side when he's lined up as Sam. Seems to get pushed back and can't make an impact on running plays (I know was expected).

Also, what's up with him in pass coverage? How many targets come his way, what's his success percentage?

He's a stud as a rush end, no doubt. If the other numbers are lacking or don't show improvement, the answer to his position is obvious.

From what some are saying, he is not a sideline to sideline guy and not very good at pass pro, but when rushing he does well.

He is good against blocking TEs and FBs, but Guards can move him around in space.

Like mcqueen1 said in another thread, what we are doing now is working. Would I change it, I don't know. Glad I don't have to make that decision.

[TGI Jef]

i dont think that he should be a DE, but i think he should be a pass rusher on every down.

there is a difference. after reading some Bills message boards, all of them are talking about how Maybin has been swallowed up by big tackles and thus neutralized.

not saying Orakpo should be in coverage at all - he shouldnt. but i am saying that i think they are using him pretty well and the nbumbers back it up. i dont think that him putting his hand in the dirt on every down would automatically multiply his sacks by X times considering he is moving around and then rushing a lot too. i think the way they are using him actually maximizes his energy and he is a hellish change of pace for any NFL tackle (including Ryan Clady, who will be an AFC pro bowl tackle until about 2015).

i think that apart from a few instances, blache has kept him from being too isolated in coverage. about the only thing blache has done well this year, but i am happy right now with how Orakpo is being used.

also, remember this - a knock on Rak coming out of the draft was that he took plays off. he has done nothing as a Redskin so far that would indicate he is anything but a great locker room guy who gives maximum effort all the time. however, you cant tell me that he wouldnt be naturally inclined to give it 150% on the downs where he actually does get to put his hand down.

also, rak's 3 tackles for loss against Denver showed that when you can keep him clean, he can be good against the outside run. oh, and he actually wraps up on tackles - IMAGINE THAT from a first rounder.

[Never4get#21]

They need to utilize his pass rushing abilities on every down. He's not being used properly at this point as an OLB and he's far from dominating at that position.

Brian Cushing on the other hand is a monster OLB.
Brian Cushing 78 Tkls 1.5 Sacks 1 Safety 10 pass defenses 2 ints 2 forced fumbles!!!

Raks only good stat is his sacks, and most of them came when he had his hands in the dirt. I agree with most that say he needs to be a full time DE. He's lost in coverage and he's far from a tackling machine. He's ranked behind Cushing, Malagua, Curry, and Levy in the "rookie category" for tackles alone. All of them have pass defenses, Forced Fumbles, Int etc....

RAK is a beast at applying pressure and needs to play DE full time. Draft/FA a true OLB to play behind him and this defense would be incredible.

[theboomking]

I'd like to see the yards per rush attempt to the strong side when he's lined up as Sam. Seems to get pushed back and can't make an impact on running plays (I know was expected).

Also, what's up with him in pass coverage? How many targets come his way, what's his success percentage?

He's a stud as a rush end, no doubt. If the other numbers are lacking or don't show improvement, the answer to his position is obvious.

I disagree. I haven't seen him get pushed back at all. He has looked great at stacking and shedding. He just doesn't seem to have great LB instincts yet, and isn't a sideline to sideline guy, or very good in coverage. I'd say the only times he looks good at LB are when they run right at him, or when he is blitzing.

For those of us that don't seem to think he can anchor against the run against NFL tackles, I'd like to point out that he has been just destroying tackles and guards with his bull rush. For all of his speed, I think Rak plays more like a power player with athleticism.

By the way, for the original poster, I have every skins game on my Verizon FIOS DVR. I'm not sure how to make a copy, but it would be cool if someone knew how and we could make a youtube highlite video of all of RAK's sacks, pressures, and TFL's.

[Nomadskin11]

I just love seeing the "sack split by 99 A. Carter and 98 B. Orakpo"

Meet you at the quarterback!

[Koolblue13]

I just love seeing the "sack split by 99 A. Carter and 98 B. Orakpo"

Meet you at the quarterback!

And how they joke with each other about stealing their sacks. :hysterical:

[TGI Jef]

one thing that is kind of mind boggling, regardless of what you think of orakpo at lb, is that he has taken some snaps at DT.

if blache is playing him at LB to keep him from taking on tackles twice his size, why is he often taking on OGs on 3rd down? since the 2nd half of the atlanta game, haynesworth has played a lot of 3rd down snaps at RDE. if Orakpo were to stunt around Haynesworth like Van Den Bosch often did, that would be one thing. but orakpo seems to jsut be trying to rush the passer from the inside.

a) haynesworth pushes everyone back but rarely gets close to the QB in time

b) haynesworth pushing his guy back from RDE eliminates space that Orakpo has to use his speed against big Guards, which is what he needs to do in that situation

im happy that they are experimenting with new things, but id rather them try that with Jarmon (bigger, more natural DE/DT hybrid) at DT and then maybe blitz Orakpo from OLB.

[wwSEANd]

Orakpo is a better DE than OLB. His hands should be on the ground on every down. He appears to be on pace for 11 or 12 sacks this season. If you remember those last couple of plays against the Rams, he almost got to Marc Bulger on every down. He belongs at DE on every play.

if he's a DE on every down, where does Andre go? they are both right ends and, in Blache's scheme, that is *very* different from being a left end. only in obvious passing situations can we have Orakpo and Carter both playing DE, so you suggest we bench Carter (our sack leader) to get Orakpo more time at DE?

Orakpo will eventually replace Carter, but right now they're two of our best playmakers on defense, and the only way to get them both on the field for the first two downs is to play Orakpo at OLB.

can anyone confirm that Carter has a no-trade clause in his contract? with the season he's having, we could get a great draft pick for him and allow Orakpo to play full-time DE. then we could draft OL *and* OLB with our newly-expanded set of picks, and be set. don't get me wrong, i think Andre is a beast and i love having him as a Redskin, but Rak is next in line anyway and we need OL and OLB badly.

[Farbod21]

If it aint broke, then dont fix it. Whatever hes doing it is working. I like that hes on the field with both Carter and Daniels. Its not like we have Jerod Mayo on the bench losing playing time...

[gorebd82]

if he's a DE on every down, where does Andre go? they are both right ends and, in Blache's scheme, that is *very* different from being a left end. only in obvious passing situations can we have Orakpo and Carter both playing DE, so you suggest we bench Carter (our sack leader) to get Orakpo more time at DE?

Orakpo will eventually replace Carter, but right now they're two of our best playmakers on defense, and the only way to get them both on the field for the first two downs is to play Orakpo at OLB.

This has been my stance since we drafted him. You have to put your best players on the field, point blank. We have two good RDEs and one is athletic enough to play OLB. Let him develop in that role to maximize our pass rush. Our pass rush will only get better next year with Rak, Carter and Big Al. And then by the time Carter moves on, Rak will be very comfortable at SAM and I would recommend drafting another RDE to continue the tag team element.

[hieverybody]

We need to make sure we are comparing the right things here:

Brian Orakpo with his hand in the dirt on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd downs
Vs.
Brian Orakpo standing up on 1st and 2nd downs and his hand in the dirt on 3rd downs.

On 3rd downs it doesn't matter if we call him a linebacker or DE because he's doing the same thing. Would we rather have him play linebacker or DE on first and second downs?

The point of this post is to point out that if Orakpo has most of his sacks on third down passing situations, that doesn't cut either way.

[gorebd82]

one thing that is kind of mind boggling, regardless of what you think of orakpo at lb, is that he has taken some snaps at DT.

if blache is playing him at LB to keep him from taking on tackles twice his size, why is he often taking on OGs on 3rd down? since the 2nd half of the atlanta game, haynesworth has played a lot of 3rd down snaps at RDE. if Orakpo were to stunt around Haynesworth like Van Den Bosch often did, that would be one thing. but orakpo seems to jsut be trying to rush the passer from the inside.

Rak at DT only seems to happen on 3rd down in obvious passing situations. If it were 1st or 2nd down, the guard would overpower him. On third down, Rak has the advantage because guards tend to not move as well as OTs so because Rak has so much power and hand movement for such a quick guy, he can give OGs fits.

Haynesworth on the outside can just help to push back the LT and collapse the pocket while Rak creates havoc on the inside and Carter can create havoc from the outside. Basically, we put our best DL against LT to neutralize the opponents best OL. Then let our pass rushers play against inferior pass blockers and race to the QB.

[RandyHolt]

I would like to see the stats on how many times teams pass with Phil Daniels in the game. Specifically, how often is Blache right in predicting "run downs".

I dont know what the numbers are, but I would venture a guess and say teams pass 40% of the time we expect them to run, notably most would be on 1st and 10.

Figuring out how many times Rak has had his hand in the dirt and sacked the QB, do the math and guestimate how many sacks he would have as a full time DE.

Lastly, what is the average yards per rush with a big slow lumbering defense end in the game. I contend our run defense is not good with our run stopper DE in the game.

[MythMan]

Rak at DT only seems to happen on 3rd down in obvious passing situations. If it were 1st or 2nd down, the guard would overpower him. On third down, Rak has the advantage because guards tend to not move as well as OTs so because Rak has so much power and hand movement for such a quick guy, he can give OGs fits.

Haynesworth on the outside can just help to push back the LT and collapse the pocket while Rak creates havoc on the inside and Carter can create havoc from the outside. Basically, we put our best DL against LT to neutralize the opponents best OL. Then let our pass rushers play against inferior pass blockers and race to the QB.

Why put our best DL on their best OL? We should put our worst DL on their best, its not like he can just not block him or block two people. Letting our best players exploit matchups against weaker ones seems to make more sense to me which is why I dont really understand Haynesworth at end.

[Darth Tater]

one thing that is kind of mind boggling, regardless of what you think of orakpo at lb, is that he has taken some snaps at DT.

if blache is playing him at LB to keep him from taking on tackles twice his size, why is he often taking on OGs on 3rd down? since the 2nd half of the atlanta game, haynesworth has played a lot of 3rd down snaps at RDE. if Orakpo were to stunt around Haynesworth like Van Den Bosch often did, that would be one thing. but orakpo seems to jsut be trying to rush the passer from the inside.

a) haynesworth pushes everyone back but rarely gets close to the QB in time

b) haynesworth pushing his guy back from RDE eliminates space that Orakpo has to use his speed against big Guards, which is what he needs to do in that situation

im happy that they are experimenting with new things, but id rather them try that with Jarmon (bigger, more natural DE/DT hybrid) at DT and then maybe blitz Orakpo from OLB.
Because Blache is NOT playing him at SAM just to avoid playing hm against tackles but primarily because the amount he improves the SAM play by is greater than the improvement he might bring to end play. Also, guards may be big but usually aren't as athletic so you can decrease their effect by creating angles. Further you want to get a playmaker like the Rak coming from as many different places as you can. One of the best ways to create pressure is not to send extra men but to send men from unexpected places. Playmakers must be accounted for and by moving them around you may force errors in blocking scheme, pass placement, timing or direction that the QB moves. Finally, we can get all of our best pass rushers on the field without tipping our hand.

[TGI Jef]

Because Blache is NOT playing him at SAM just to avoid playing hm against tackles but primarily because the amount he improves the SAM play by is greater than the improvement he might bring to end play. Also, guards may be big but usually aren't as athletic so you can decrease their effect by creating angles. Further you want to get a playmaker like the Rak coming from as many different places as you can. One of the best ways to create pressure is not to send extra men but to send men from unexpected places. Playmakers must be accounted for and by moving them around you may force errors in blocking scheme, pass placement, timing or direction that the QB moves. Finally, we can get all of our best pass rushers on the field without tipping our hand.

i completely agree with all of that. still though - and this is a nice problem to have - albert collapses the pocket so much that Rak is often stuck having to beat a Guard with a bull rush. simply not room to go around him.

again, i agree with a lot of your points, but i would like to see a Carter - Golston - Jarmon - Haynesworth DL on some third downs, with Orakpo coming around the edge on Albert's side. would allow everyone on the field to utilize their strength.

[Darth Tater]

Rak at DT only seems to happen on 3rd down in obvious passing situations. If it were 1st or 2nd down, the guard would overpower him. On third down, Rak has the advantage because guards tend to not move as well as OTs so because Rak has so much power and hand movement for such a quick guy, he can give OGs fits.

Haynesworth on the outside can just help to push back the LT and collapse the pocket while Rak creates havoc on the inside and Carter can create havoc from the outside. Basically, we put our best DL against LT to neutralize the opponents best OL. Then let our pass rushers play against inferior pass blockers and race to the QB.
Yep, basically on running plays (or plays were running action is believable), the offensive lineman has almost total control of the blocking angle and timing (this is a big reason that run blocking tends to be easier) while the lineman has to be much more re-active when he pass blocks. Also, generally when you're run blocking you can just punch and move the guy over you if worse comes to worse and that may be enough. In pass pro, unless you do your assignment, almost nothing will be good enough.

[MisterPinstripe]

Why put our best DL on their best OL? We should put our worst DL on their best, its not like he can just not block him or block two people. Letting our best players exploit matchups against weaker ones seems to make more sense to me which is why I dont really understand Haynesworth at end.

Yeah... Logically it would kind of make sense to put our weakest lineman on their strongest if we know its a passing situation so that your strongest guys would have a sweet matchup, but I imagine that still wouldnt work out so well.

[bulldog]

Orakpo's development thankfully does not seem to have been stunted by playing him at SAM this year.

I would hope that the new regime in 2010 evaluates the defense with an eye to bringing the younger players along faster and perhaps looking to trade or release a veteran like Andre Carter whose performances vary widely from year to year and even game to game.

[gorebd82]

Orakpo's development thankfully does not seem to have been stunted by playing him at SAM this year.

I would hope that the new regime in 2010 evaluates the defense with an eye to bringing the younger players along faster and perhaps looking to trade or release a veteran like Andre Carter whose performances vary widely from year to year and even game to game.

I don't understand why everyone wants to trade Carter after experiencing so much success. Yes, his trade value is higher than ever, but that value doesn't match his production. We're not getting a 1st or 2nd for him in today's NFL climate. This is just as bad as neglecting the draft. Everybody wants to elevate the value of draft picks so high that they would sacrifice productive vets in their prime.

At 30 and teamed with Rak and Big Al, he can be a good DE for another 3 seasons or so and be a good situational guy after that. His skills probably won't greatly diminish because his success comes from relentless effort and hand techniques more than pure speed off the edge or strength. With the double digit sack production he's having, he will be a great deal at his current salary.

Let's keep this trio going and build a D-line pipeline through future draft picks.

[sjinhan]

Brian Cushing on the other hand is a monster OLB.
Brian Cushing 78 Tkls 1.5 Sacks 1 Safety 10 pass defenses 2 ints 2 forced fumbles!!!



difference is productivity in tackles comes from the fact that Orakpo is just now learning how to play OLB while those guys played OLB all their college careers...

If the season ended today.. Cushing probably gets the DROY... he has been really impressive when he has been healthy.

[cyfar]

Orakpo is a better DE than OLB. His hands should be on the ground on every down. He appears to be on pace for 11 or 12 sacks this season. If you remember those last couple of plays against the Rams, he almost got to Marc Bulger on every down. He belongs at DE on every play.

I totally agree with you on that point. If he played his true position, he'd have even more and would be even more of a force out there.

[TGI Jef]

also - and it kills me to credit blache again here - Blache does seem to have a good sense right now of when to just constantly release orakpo as a DE. the atlanta game, for instance, was the first game i remember where i pretty much expected Ryan to be knocked out on every play. Blache had Orakpo at DE for a several consecutive plays in that game and the Denver game. great to see after the ineptitude on the DL for so long.

that being said, still count me among those who would rather see more safety help and Rak just blitz/rush the passer a ton from the OLB spot.

[RandyHolt]

One reason to consider trading carter, he may be soft against the run. Someone is, we are only 24th in the league against the run. And he seems to need Haynesworth. Look no farther than last year to see what to expect from Carter most years.

Another reason to consider trading Carter is we have brought in and drafted so many DE's year after year, dont we have some depth by now? Its like a shopping list, Jarmon, Rak, Jackson, Buzzbee, Wilson, Wynn. I am sure there were more. They join Carter Philips Alexander.

The final reason, a team may be willing to overpay for AC. I think we have all seen Blache's scheme does what it does regardless of the personnel (as long as he has a stud mike), making most anyone on our defense expendable.

[TGI Jef]

One reason to consider trading carter, he may be soft against the run. Someone is, we are only 24th in the league against the run. And he seems to need Haynesworth. Look no farther than last year to see what to expect from Carter most years.

Another reason to consider trading Carter is we have brought in and drafted so many DE's year after year, dont we have some depth by now? Its like a shopping list, Jarmon, Rak, Jackson, Buzzbee, Wilson, Wynn. I am sure there were more. They join Carter Philips Alexander.

The final reason, a team may be willing to overpay for AC. I think we have all seen Blache's scheme does what it does regardless of the personnel (as long as he has a stud mike), making most anyone on our defense expendable.

a) extra names does not equal extra quality depth. i like Wilson and Jarmon. Wynn is almost def gone next year anyway. is the guy on the active roster anyway?

b) the problem is that hte kind of team who would be interested in a guy like Carter (a contender needing an extra playmaker) is also the kind of team that wouldnt overpay for anyone (see: pats, colts, steelers)

[RandyHolt]

a) extra names does not equal extra quality depth. i like Wilson and Jarmon. Wynn is almost def gone next year anyway. is the guy on the active roster anyway?

b) the problem is that hte kind of team who would be interested in a guy like Carter (a contender needing an extra playmaker) is also the kind of team that wouldnt overpay for anyone (see: pats, colts, steelers)

Points noted. Its been a revolving door at LDE for years now. Part of it was probably danny drafting speed guys that Blache only uses in obvious passing downs, basically busts. Blache loves him some slow as molasses run stopper LDE's for his scheme. We draft DE's and are as likely to move them to LB as we are to let them play end. But I thought Buzz and Jackson showed decent passing rush skills in very limited snaps. Maybe we should have moved them to SAM too, why not? There is no excuse for us to have not moved Wilson a year ago.

We'd need another teams Danny to become enamored blindly with ACs sack stats and offer up too much. Tell me Rak couldnt hang at RDE next to big Al. Jarmon takes over at LDE.

[TGI Jef]

Points noted. Its been a revolving door at LDE for years now. Part of it was probably danny drafting speed guys that Blache only uses in obvious passing downs, basically busts. Blache loves him some slow as molasses run stopper LDE's for his scheme. We draft DE's and are as likely to move them to LB as we are to let them play end. But I thought Buzz and Jackson showed decent passing rush skills in very limited snaps. Maybe we should have moved them to SAM too, why not?

We'd need another teams Danny to become enamored blindly with ACs sack stats and offer up too much. Tell me Rak couldnt hang at RDE next to big Al. Jarmon takes over at LDE.


i agree with a lot of that. namely, i agree in that i hope Danny/Vinny arent blinded by sack totals this year (which, for the record, are good and much improved but still not dominate) and just ignore the area for years again.

the combo of Rak/Jarmon could be a great one at DE for years to come, even if i like Rak where he is right now. in the future i would love to see him really grow into that. no one can argue, also, that Jarmon has done more this year than we expected - i hardly expected him to see the field and he has done some good work and even made a game saving play.

would love to still have the option to pick up a sleeper DE prospect in the 5th-6th rounds to have as depth going forward, though the OL situation makes that kind of silly. another conversation, i realize, but our current OL debacle - even though they were passable against Denver - makes augmenting and solidifying a lot of other spots nearly impossible.

[GothSkinsFan]

Mike Mamula, remember him? #7 or so (12?) pick for the Eagles in '95? Great combine workout. Fizzled in the NFL as a DE. Actually, he had some pretty good #s in the NFL, but he was really a hybrid LB/DE and he got beaten up pretty badly by OTs. Orakpo does not yet have either the technique or the size to deal with OTs regularly. He won't be rushing the passer if he keeps getting run over.

[jtyler42]

one thing that is kind of mind boggling, regardless of what you think of orakpo at lb, is that he has taken some snaps at DT.

if blache is playing him at LB to keep him from taking on tackles twice his size, why is he often taking on OGs on 3rd down? since the 2nd half of the atlanta game, haynesworth has played a lot of 3rd down snaps at RDE. if Orakpo were to stunt around Haynesworth like Van Den Bosch often did, that would be one thing. but orakpo seems to jsut be trying to rush the passer from the inside.

a) haynesworth pushes everyone back but rarely gets close to the QB in time

b) haynesworth pushing his guy back from RDE eliminates space that Orakpo has to use his speed against big Guards, which is what he needs to do in that situation

im happy that they are experimenting with new things, but id rather them try that with Jarmon (bigger, more natural DE/DT hybrid) at DT and then maybe blitz Orakpo from OLB.

When you see those play's with Orakpo lined up at DT and Big Al at DE, they usually are running a stunt or game on the two OL on that side...What they do is Big Al will line up wide on the LT and at the snap he will knife down hard inside on the tackle, while Orakpo also takes a step upfield...B/c Big Al knifes so hard inside on the LT the LG has to help slow him down and as soon as Haynesworth makes contact with the LG Orakpo will loop around the outside and if the LT or LG don't come off the block at best Orakpo has a clear shot to the QB at the least he will only have to beat a lunging/reaching OL not one that is set...

Of Course we don't do this all the time, sometimes they will just rush normally and not stunt but it is part of the games that DL run on OL to keep them off-balance...You won't see Orakpo lined up at DT on a running down so don't worry about that it's just something to give the offense something else to think about and make them identify and account for Both Haynesworth and Rak by maybe sliding the protection to there side and leaving AC and Griff rushing off the other side with 1 on 1 match-ups...