Keep Zorn-Replace Vinny with Holmgren

[rumplestilskin]

They know each other, they worked with each other successfully and they run the same offense. Sherman lewis stays on as the OC/play caller or maybe give Zorn another chance. Holmgren will find the right personnel for the system already in place so we dont have to start at ground zero again. Do you think I am nuts or is there some logic to this?

[Itoolu]

Zorn is not a leader of men.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Holmgren was a terrible GM. He had to give up GM duties

Why would we want to do this?

[Redskinizzle]

So let Holmgren worry about replacing Zorn later.

[RWJ]

The thought crossed my mind but what makes more sense is this. Snyder hires Shanahan as GM/HC, then Shanahan demotes Vinny to some other position within the organization as Shanahan and Vinny are supposidly good friends. Snyder doesn't make the move but Shanahan does. It doesn't make Snyder look like the bad guy. This way everyone's happy. Shanahan's in control, Vinny's still getting a paycheck from Snyder etc..

[addicted]

Come on guys, you know Zorn's a winner and we can't do better. Our best bet is to resign him for 10 years ;)

[SkinsNumberOne]

Holmgren was a terrible GM. He had to give up GM duties

Why would we want to do this?
There is no positive reasoning to do this other than a Snyder-esque lack of football reasoning.

Blindly giving people credit for things they aren't due is not how you evaluate skills effectively.

[BadKarma]

Oh hell no, I want Zorn and this WCO offense on the first bus out of town as soon as the season ends or we are eliminated from playoff contention.

Eff the WCO.

[DixieFlatline]

Holmgren was a terrible GM. He had to give up GM duties

Why would we want to do this?

Well, I could see the argument that he was trying to be both GM and HC which can be trying. Why not let him just be a GM?

[rumplestilskin]

Come on guys, you know Zorn's a winner and we can't do better. Our best bet is to resign him for 10 years ;)
I think Zorns failures relate directly with the personnell Vinny has givin him. At least Holmgren knows about building a solid O line with depth.

[darrelgreenie]

They know each other, they worked with each other successfully and they run the same offense. Sherman lewis stays on as the OC/play caller or maybe give Zorn another chance. Holmgren will find the right personnel for the system already in place so we dont have to start at ground zero again. Do you think I am nuts or is there some logic to this?


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:WpU9kI47FBL8LM:http://newcentrist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mixed-nuts.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://newcentrist.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/mixed-nuts.jpg&imgrefurl=http://newcentrist.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/radical-nuts-arrested-in-california-on-the-loose-in-greece/&usg=__1yNcWtgSNc-Dc7bDxjs0W4kV01w=&h=480&w=640&sz=61&hl=en&start=5&um=1&tbnid=WpU9kI47FBL8LM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnuts%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4ADBR_en___U S329%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Why do we want to keep a man that gutlessly in recent weeks has continued to put up with all the public humiliation management throws at him, aside from his, uhmm, coaching "ability's?"

We want him to continue leading, (said with tongue FIRMLY in cheek), 53 men?

Hail.

[RWJ]

Why do we want to keep a man that gutlessly in recent weeks has continued to put up with all the public humiliation management throws at him, aside from his, uhmm, coaching "ability's?"

We want him to continue leading, (said with tongue FIRMLY in cheek), 53 men?

Hail.


Agreed, GHH. He wants his $5,000,000. That's it.

[rumplestilskin]

Agreed, GHH. He wants his $5,000,000. That's it.
There is also a certain amount of balls in seeing things through and not quiting.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Agreed, GHH. He wants his $5,000,000. That's it.

So it would appear RWJ.

On the one hand I can appreciate him taking them for all he can; but, on the other, and speaking personally, I would neither give them the satisfaction of eventually firing me, nor would my self respect allow them to publicly humiliate me and my position the way they have.

But I guess the mighty dollar rules all with some people, shrugs.

Hail.

[SkinsManNJ]

Agreed, GHH. He wants his $5,000,000. That's it.

Wouldn't you stay for 5mil? I know I would. For the money and to be spiteful.

[RWJ]

So it would appear RWJ.

On the one hand I can appreciate him taking them for all he can; but, on the other, and speaking personally, I would neither give them the satisfaction of eventually firing me, nor would my self respect allow them to publicly humiliate me and my position the way they have.

But I guess the mighty dollar rules all with some people, shrugs.

Hail.



Big time agree here as I am sure everyone does. Once he is fired though, I can see Zorn spilling some fowl conversation about Cerrato first, then Snyder.

[RWJ]

Wouldn't you stay for 5mil? I know I would. For the money and to be spiteful.

All Zorn would have to do is spill his guts in a professional manner and Snyder would can him the next day and he'd still get his money by being fired. It would be a win-win for Zorn rather than getting racked over the coals week in and week out.

[rumplestilskin]

[QUOTE=Gibbs Hog Heaven;7029323]So it would appear RWJ.

On the one hand I can appreciate him taking them for all he can; but, on the other, and speaking personally, I would neither give them the satisfaction of eventually firing me, nor would my self respect allow them to publicly humiliate me and my position the way they have.

But I guess the mighty dollar rules all with some people, shrugs.

Hail.


I am sure you principles are solid but my guess is you have never been under contract for $5,000,000. Maybe Zorn is a smart man not to let his ego or pride get in the way of a sum of money that can greatly affect his and his families life in the future. Sitting in our position it is easy to say that you would take your pride and walk but it is human nature not to do so. Furthermore if by chance we do turn this around he will regain his self respect that you figure he lost and be happy knowing he didn't act impulsively or abandon his team and coaching staff. Worse case scenario he is rich. How is that not a good business/ life decision?

[Long-Time-Fan]

Zorn was great last year when we we 6-2,now that things dropped off every fair weather fan wants to start a new just like we have every other year.

Zorn will be fine as long as he gets solid players.
I hope we do keep Zorn for 10 years.

Only having Moss,Cooley as productive team mates does this team NO good.
Throw in I dont practice,I dont play preseason game CP and well you get what we have here today.

Everyone cried about our O-line last year but CP finished 4th in the league last year in total rushing.
Not bad for a team that had NO O-line.

Add/shuffle some guys around and put in Ladell Betts and you get a 114 yard game.
This from a crappy O-line :)
While Portis has only 495 yards for the year.

The fans we have here are WAAAYYYYYYYYyyyyyy worst than the owner when it comes to a win NOW approach.

[33]

Are we thinking of the same Zorn?

[Long-Time-Fan]

Read the post over,it's very clear.

[SkinsManNJ]

All Zorn would have to do is spill his guts in a professional manner and Snyder would can him the next day and he'd still get his money by being fired. It would be a win-win for Zorn rather than getting racked over the coals week in and week out.

True. But it seems Zorn might want to coach again maybe not HC but coach nonetheless. If he spills the rusty water who is going to hire him as a coach? If they do he will be looked down upon. Compared to he kept taking it lube free and did the best he could. Which seems better? So its not really a win win.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I am sure you principles are solid but my guess is you have never been under contract for $5,000,000. Maybe Zorn is a smart man not to let his ego or pride get in the way of a sum of money that can greatly affect his and his families life in the future. Sitting in our position it is easy to say that you would take your pride and walk but it is human nature not to do so. Furthermore if by chance we do turn this around he will regain his self respect that you figure he lost and be happy knowing he didn't act impulsively or abandon his team and coaching staff. Worse case scenario he is rich. How is that not a good business/ life decision?

That's a fair point man, and no, I've never been anywhere like a situation where $5 mil. is on the table.

All I would say, save for I'd like to think I'd take my pride, is if I were in Zorn's position, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be short of a buck or two to make my decision easier.

But your point is valid in so much as it's easier said than done to walk away from that.

Hail.

[rumplestilskin]

Zorn was great last year when we we 6-2,now that things dropped off every fair weather fan wants to start a new just like we have every other year.

Zorn will be fine as long as he gets solid players.
I hope we do keep Zorn for 10 years.

Only having Moss,Cooley as productive team mates does this team NO good.
Throw in I dont practice,I dont play preseason game CP and well you get what we have here today.

Everyone cried about our O-line last year but CP finished 4th in the league last year in total rushing.
Not bad for a team that had NO O-line.
Add/shuffle some guys around and put in Ladell Betts and you get a 110 yard game.
This from a crappy O-line :)
While Portis has only 495 yards for the year.


Yup, I fully agree and it is a reflectiion of FO mismanagement by favoring CP so much. I really dont think Zorn has the ability or power of approval from snyderato to sit him. I think confidence in Zorn was never there and he was always under the shadow of idiots. Its hard to work in those conditions. I think Mike Holmgren would allow him to be himself.

[addicted]

I think Zorns failures relate directly with the personnell Vinny has givin him. At least Holmgren knows about building a solid O line with depth.

I totally agree! Just look at his half time coaching adjustments. Just look at how is philosophy is showing to be so much more superior to other teams. Check out how many times he's coached up a player and gotten them to play better then they actually are. Just look at all of the games he's out coached the other team. Oh wait....:doh:

[RWJ]

True. But it seems Zorn might want to coach again maybe not HC but coach nonetheless. If he spills the rusty water who is going to hire him as a coach? If they do he will be looked down upon. Compared to he kept taking it lube free and did the best he could. Which seems better? So its not really a win win.

There's alot of power in the English language. Zorn could put it in such a way that the fanbase and media would laugh and they already know Cerrato and Snyder don't know what they are doing that it wouldn't hurt Zorn that much.

[TheismannQuote]

Long-time-fan hit it on the head. why are so many wanting the owner to drop another coach, get another big name coach yadda yadda. Rinse repeat.

Adjustments need to be made, for sure. Players need to be replaced, for sure. But the offense scheme shouldn't be abandoned year after year.

Cerrato needs to go. The owner needs to smoke cigars, cut checks, sit back and shut up. Then, we aim to join the professional sports league again and leave the marketing brand behind.

[addicted]

All Zorn would have to do is spill his guts in a professional manner and Snyder would can him the next day and he'd still get his money by being fired. It would be a win-win for Zorn rather than getting racked over the coals week in and week out.

Truth be told all Snyder has to do is fire Jim Zorn "with cause" and he wouldn't get any money unless Zorn sued him. It happens all the time. Snyder could threaten to do this and force Zorn to accept a lesser amount of money and release him today. I actually believe Snyder likes Zorn so he wants to keep him coaching. It's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. I don't believe the speculation that we've got a great coach who said not to fire Zorn middle of the year so he's keeping his job. I think the people Snyder want's in place are already here.

[dmorefield2]

[

The fans we have here are WAAAYYYYYYYYyyyyyy worst than the owner when it comes to a win NOW approach.[/QUOTE]

Thats exactly what i've been thinking, after every loss everyone is screaming "FIRE HIM and/or TRADE FOR HIM!!! Not that our owner is any better but it seems he's doing exactly what a lot of you are asking for and once it doesn't work you're screaming for him to sell the team. I don't know if ya'll realize it but we need snyders money and he's not afraid to spend it. he just needs someone other than Vinny to tell him HOW to spend it......:helmet:

[Buck812]

Zorn, JC, Portis and the rest... That all needs to be decided by someone who knows how to build a football team. Not Vinny, not Snyder and certainly not anyone posting on this site! lol

The worrisom part is, we have to depend on Snyder to do the first part right.

[rumplestilskin]

That's a fair point man, and no, I've never been anywhere like a situation where $5 mil. is on the table.

All I would say, save for I'd like to think I'd take my pride, is if I were in Zorn's position, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be short of a buck or two to make my decision easier.

But your point is valid in so much as it's easier said than done to walk away from that.

Hail.
I cant help but to think that he truly is a genuine guy. Kind of like gibbs. He is passive but I think he can lead. Vinny has treated him beyond comprehension. It would be justice if somehow he stays and Vinny goes. Its must be a tough one to stomach but ultimately my guess his hide is thick due to the media lathering and attention this team receives.

[rumplestilskin]

zorn, jc, portis and the rest... That all needs to be decided by someone who knows how to build a football team. Not vinny, not snyder and certainly not anyone posting on this site! Lol

the worrisom part is, we have to depend on snyder to do the first part right.
too true. Lol

[rumplestilskin]

I totally agree! Just look at his half time coaching adjustments. Just look at how is philosophy is showing to be so much more superior to other teams. Check out how many times he's coached up a player and gotten them to play better then they actually are. Just look at all of the games he's out coached the other team. Oh wait....:doh:
You mean like last week. AWE SARCASM WHAT AN ORIGINAL ANGLE

[RAAZ227]

Zorn is not a leader of men.

How can you say that? The team has been behind him the whole time. No one player has bashed him publicly. They support him and his offense. To me that says he is a "leader of men".

I like the idea.

[DCskinFAN]

absolutely... vinny and JC are the problem not zorn in my opinion

[SAli457180]

Zorn is not a leader of men.

Right. Zorn has proven that he doesn't have what it takes to rally guys behind him. At halftime of the Falcons' game, it was Bugel who was firing guys up. Zorn may have what it takes to be an OC for somebody, but not a head coach. Vinny and Zorn are tied together and they should both be let go together.

[RWJ]

absolutely... vinny and JC are the problem not zorn in my opinion

Disagree. I think it starts with the owner. Snyder hired Vinny and Vinny influenced Snyder to hire Zorn. Stuff flows downhill. Zorn is the scapegoat here. Someone has to pay and that person is Zorn. Unfortunately, it's the physics of sports. Here's a sad one to ponder. Snyder went to Gibbs and asked him what he thought of Zorn as a HC. WOW! Snyder didn't trust Vinny's or his own opinion.

[RWJ]

Right. Zorn has proven that he doesn't have what it takes to rally guys behind him. At halftime of the Falcons' game, it was Bugel who was firing guys up. Zorn may have what it takes to be an OC for somebody, but not a head coach. Vinny and Zorn are tied together and they should both be let go together.


Agree to some extent. Zorn should have come up through the ranks. He hiring was like promoting a Capt. to a Gen..

[RAAZ227]

Right. Zorn has proven that he doesn't have what it takes to rally guys behind him. At halftime of the Falcons' game, it was Bugel who was firing guys up. Zorn may have what it takes to be an OC for somebody, but not a head coach. Vinny and Zorn are tied together and they should both be let go together.

but, all the players have zorns back. what happened in the locker room is speculation.

[Jeffro]

I'm sorry but I don't know how any Redskins fan can actually get "Keep Jim Zorn" to come out of their mouth. This guy is completely and utterly over his head.

And please don't give me this Vinny makes him suck, Dan makes him suck crap. This guy is horrible.. Don't believe me? www.youtube.com Search "Jim Zorn Press Conference"

As for him having the locker room? What does that say about the locker room? That they like a coach who never blames them, never raises his voice at him, and takes the blame for everything? Hard to believe he has the locker room...

Fire Vinny.. Fire Jim.. Fire Jason "Checkdown" Campbell.

[ECU-ALUM]

Face it after what Snyder did to Holmgren's good friend Jim Zorn...there's no chance he comes here.

[SWFLSkins]

Why do we want to keep a man that gutlessly in recent weeks has continued to put up with all the public humiliation management throws at him, aside from his, uhmm, coaching "ability's?"

We want him to continue leading, (said with tongue FIRMLY in cheek), 53 men?

Hail.

I have not seen 53 men on this team in awhile and really what did you want him to do, run away with his tail between his legs, gutless would be doing that.

I say the OP is right, I wanted to say it for awhile now. Zorn is not the problem and could end up doing well with a real GM that knows "Men" from mice.

[RWJ]

Face it after what Snyder did to Holmgren's good friend Jim Zorn...there's no chance he comes here.


Agreed. Gruden signs deal with ESPN. Cowher calls Snyder out on CBS, then Holmgen blasts Snyder as well. To me, that leaves Shanahan as the only one left that would consider coming onboard.

[ECU-ALUM]

Agreed. Gruden signs deal with ESPN. Cowher calls Snyder out on CBS, then Holmgen blasts Snyder as well. To me, that leaves Shanahan as the only one left that would consider coming onboard.

And assuming Wade is fired in dallas...I see a serious bidding war between JJ & Snyder for Shanahan...and if Snyder loses that bidding war...I seriously wonder who they would get to coach this team (assuming Zorn is out as well).

[RWJ]

I have not seen 53 men on this team in awhile and really what did you want him to do, run away with his tail between his legs, gutless would be doing that.

I say the OP is right, I wanted to say it for awhile now. Zorn is not the problem and could end up doing well with a real GM that knows "Men" from mice.



Again I will say it's like promoting a Capt. to a General. I don't think it worked and I don't think it works. Just my opinion.

[SWFLSkins]

Zorn, JC, Portis and the rest... That all needs to be decided by someone who knows how to build a football team. Not Vinny, not Snyder and certainly not anyone posting on this site! lol

The worrisom part is, we have to depend on Snyder to do the first part right.

Aaaaay-Men, hire this guy. I would not be unhappy if Zorn goes, but I would be very unhappy if Vinny stays.

[SWFLSkins]

Again I will say it's like promoting a Capt. to a General. I don't think it worked and I don't think it works. Just my opinion.

IF some General had only been Captains for awhile wars would be waged differently. I do agree Zorn was brought along too quickly but that does not mean he won't eventually be successful. I like the guy, I like his chances, he just needs the support mechanisms in place.

And this is all this board is, is our opinions. No problem there.

[RWJ]

And assuming Wade is fired in dallas...I see a serious bidding war between JJ & Snyder for Shanahan...and if Snyder loses that bidding war...I seriously wonder who they would get to coach this team (assuming Zorn is out as well).

Snyder throws money around like it's trash being thrown in a trash can. JJ will never agree to a 10 mill a year contract like Snyder will. Do I think Snyder would do it? In a hearbeat to try to somehow save face. Does this sound out of the realm of reality to you or anyone, respectfully?

[ECU-ALUM]

Snyder throws money around like it's trash being thrown in a trash can. JJ will never agree to a 10 mill a year contract like Snyder will. Do I think Snyder would do it? In a hearbeat to try to somehow save face. Does this sound out of the realm of reality to you or anyone, respectfully?

oh no not in the least...if this season ends up with 4-12 or 5-11 record Snyder is going to be in damage control mode...and he will do just about anything (short of firing Vinny...he don't think Snyder will do it...he likes that bug-eyed brown-noser) to get back in the fans good graces.

The thing is Shanahan will know that as well and if he wants he can play JJ & Snyder off of each other to get whatever he wants.

[RWJ]

IF some General had only been Captains for awhile wars would be waged differently. I do agree Zorn was brought along too quickly but that does not mean he won't eventually be successful. I like the guy, I like his chances, he just needs the support mechanisms in place.

And this is all this board is, is our opinions. No problem there.



SWFL, you just said it. Will he be successful? We might never know as he may never again get a chance to be a HC. He took the ultimate chance at being a HC and in his case it was almost like playing the lottery. Last year looked like things were headed in the right direction. He wasn't given support and never stated in interviews that we needed to address the OL, which he should have done in media statement. Hindsight, wouldn't you say. It is what it is. I like the guy too but his reigns were cut when they turned it over to Sherm Lewis to call the plays. Do you agree?

[RWJ]

oh no not in the least...if this season ends up with 4-12 or 5-11 record Snyder is going to be in damage control mode...and he will do just about anything (short of firing Vinny...he don't think Snyder will do it...he likes that bug-eyed brown-noser) to get back in the fans good graces.

The thing is Shanahan will know that as well and if he wants he can play JJ & Snyder off of each other to get whatever he wants.



Exactly and Snyder knows he has to and will pay bigtime for Shanahan.

[ECU-ALUM]

Exactly and Snyder knows he has to and will pay bigtime for Shanahan.

No doubt..it's either Shanahan or a phone call to Fassell or Denny Green...and more Vinny :doh:

[RWJ]

No doubt..it's either Shanahan or a phone call to Fassell or Denny Green...and more Vinny :doh:

Just my opinion but I doubt it's Fassell or Green. I don't think:p

[ECU-ALUM]

Just my opinion but I doubt it's Fassell or Green. I don't think:p

Me neither...but those were the only two names that I could think of...but I think you see the type of retread we might have to settle for if Shanahan says no.

Personally if it's not Shananhan...It wouldn't surprise me if it was Brian Bilick...not saying it would be...but that's a name that is under the radar.

[icbmayday]

Lets just worry about the now

[texasthunder]

Exactly and Snyder knows he has to and will pay bigtime for Shanahan.


Well it could get interesting as Denver is on the hook for the next two years, to the tune of 7 million per year. And as I understand it, all Shanahan has to do is try and seek employment.
Now knowing Snyder is a buisiness man, he could work this to his favor.
Lets see he offers Shanahan 5 million, then denver is obligated for the difference of 2 million.

Personally, the only way I would like to see Shanahan here is as a GM.


In regards to the OP, I too agree that Zorn and Holmgren would be a good combonation. The two of them can take Jason C. and head north to Buffalo. ;)