When Will This Franchise Start Respecting the Draft??

[DWil]

I haven't had much opinion about the McNabb trade since it occurred on Sunday. However, when I realized that only 4 picks were to be had this year, it made feel like this franchise will never be committed to rebuilding our team the proper way through several years of competent drafting. Although Shannan and Allen are "running" the show, it appears that we're getting older on offense and not trying to field young talented players to groom for the next 12+ years. The reason why we all love Cooley and Orakpo so much is because their homegrown and were brought up the right way....even under the chaotic Cerrato regime. The purpose of the draft is to acquire young talent that will help the franchise compete for a decade.....however, this team continues to throw picks away for aging players and its awfully frustrating, irritating, and annoying. At some point we must take our lumps and know that after sucking for 2 or 3 years, the team will be set for the next 10 years.

[corrupt3d]

It's Burgundy.


But though you make a point, I feel like the difference is smarter draft trades. A second for Jason Taylor? Eh. A second for McNabb? Yes please.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Eh. New regime in town. You can't really blame them for our lack of draft picks this year. Now if this continues next year or the year after, then yes, it's troubling.

[gutlead74]

the future is now and history is cyclical

[JC#17]

It's Burgundy.


But though you make a point, I feel like the difference is smarter draft trades. A second for Jason Taylor? Eh. A second for McNabb? Yes please.

Agree. We are not overpaying, whether that means money or draft picks, for players. Let's face it, we needed a qb, and we got a potential hall of famer for a 2nd round pick. The season hasn't started yet, so don't think Allen is done making deals, we will have more draft picks come draft day

[maskedsuperstar]

McNabb for a 2nd round pick? Yes, you do that deal. Its not about "this franchise hasn't learned anything." Shanahan wants a QB. And he knew damn well, Campbell wasn't the guy.

[Oldskool]

I haven't had much opinion about the McNabb trade since it occurred on Sunday. However, when I realized that only 4 picks were to be had this year, it made feel like this franchise will never be committed to rebuilding our team the proper way through several years of competent drafting. Although Shannan and Allen are "running" the show, it appears that we're getting older on offense and not trying to field young talented players to groom for the next 12+ years. The reason why we all love Cooley and Orakpo so much is because their homegrown and were brought up the right way....even under the chaotic Cerrato regime. The purpose of the draft is to acquire young talent that will help the franchise compete for a decade.....however, this team continues to throw picks away for aging players and its awfully frustrating, irritating, and annoying. At some point we must take our lumps and know that after sucking for 2 or 3 years, the team will be set for the next 10 years.

The draft is a tool, just as is free agency and trades. A team screws up when it doesn't get fair value for a player in either of the 3 categories.

Simply put, a franchise QB with 2-3 + years left in him with intricate knowledge of an opponents playbook and tendencies is worth a 2nd round pick.

[zoony]

The NFC Title game last year had two franchises built largely thru free agency.

[Glockypoo]

it appears that we're getting older on offense and not trying to field young talented players to groom for the next 12+ years. .That simply doesn't happen anymore. For whatever reason (injuries, free agency, coaching/system changes), it's rare for a player to be in one place for more than 5-6 years.

The NFL is a win now type of league. No way Shannahan would have agreed to come here if he thought we were going to go through a 2-3 year rebuilding process.

And remember, our 3rd round pick this year is actually Jeremy Jarmon.

[authentic]

The NFC Title game last year had two franchises built largely thru free agency.

Especially at the QB position........But of course people keep saying that the one we have now is "over rated"...:rolleyes:

[Art]

I'd rather have players who can play in the NFL than players who, for the most part, are OUT of the NFL in two years. The draft's hit rate is not high.

Put it this way.

Would you prefer McNabb or Peyton Manning?

Manning, right.

Would you prefer McNabb or Ryan Leaf?

McNabb, right.

Imagine, though, the shine of taking Leaf with our No. 4 pick, knowing NOTHING of his actual play in the NFL. The big arm. Fast release. Awesome accuracy. You'd fall in love with him. And you'd be incorrect.

Would I pick Bradford over McNabb if he developed into a franchise QB WE could trade after 11 years? Sure.

But, we're much more likely to get something we KNOW works at a good level in the NFL with McNabb than any rookie. It's just as likely Bradford is Akili Smith. It's equally likely had the Eagles taken Akili Smith, no one would think squadoosh of the Eagles all these years, on their fifth new coach, seeing Reid fired by 2002 while Cincy would be an exciting, winning franchise.

Drafting a young QB you hit on alters your future for a decade. Drafting one you miss on sets you back a decade.

I'm ok with McNabb who's had fewer arm injuries than Bradford. That's one example, but you can extend it to whether you'd prefer a guy like Maake who proved his ability in the NFL who has something to prove in coming back, or a sixth rounder unlikely to be around next year.

[zoony]

Especially at the QB position........But of course people keep saying that the one we have now is "over rated"...:rolleyes:

Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Jared Allen, Darren Sharper, Steve Hutchinson, Jeremy Shockey, Jonathan Vilma...

...basically all the pro bowlers from both teams :)

[zoony]

I'm ok with McNabb who's had fewer arm injuries than Bradford. That's one example, but you can extend it to whether you'd prefer a guy like Maake who proved his ability in the NFL who has something to prove in coming back, or a sixth rounder unlikely to be around next year.


I agree with you up to a point- (how could anyone not?)... but I think what you largely miss with free agency is the hunger that you get with young draft picks anxious to prove themselves. Also, the rookies are going to be buying what the head coach is selling. THey won't be jaded or have a "been there done that" attitude. The coach can sell his system and get everyone on board a lot easier with young guys.

You can quickly get a team loaded with talent but with no moxie. Basically the Redskins of the past 12 years.

.....

[Major Harris]

i'm to the point now where i don't care what we do. just let us win on sundays.

i don't like how we've just given away draft picks in the past. but i don't view the mcnabb trade in that light.

[ncr2h]

I see the usual suspects are in here backing up whatever the front office does.

And let's quit acting like it's McNabb vs. Manning or Leaf.

In reality it's: (McNabb for 3 seasons, 2 of which will he will be borderline Pro Bowl and the third in which he'll show severe decline)

vs.

Manning/Rivers/Roethlesburger for the rest of his career, or Leaf/Alex Smith for 3 years.


This move is stupid. And it's easy to say right now that it was good, but 4 years down the line, we're going to look back on this trade and the Brunell trade and say, "Wait...why didn't we learn from our mistakes?"

Let's just say that I will be keeping a very close eye on the careers of Bradford, Clausen, and Mccoy.

[nookiebear]

I think the McNabb trade shows two things.

Shanny doesn't rate Campbell
Shanny doesn't rate any of the QBs in this draft, apart from maybe Bradford who has injury issues and will be gone after the first pick.

So he did the next best thing and got one of the NFL's top QB of the past 10 years

Of course, if we get back a second round pick and go for Tebow or McCoy then I am wrong but I think it will be a major shock for us to draft a QB now

As for respecting the draft, if we give away picks this time next year the OP might have a point, but right now its too early to tell if Allen and Shanny will respect it more than Vinny

I think they will though

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

When you start respecting Mike's gangsta.

[Warhead36]

The NFC Title game last year had two franchises built largely thru free agency.

I wouldn't say those teams built through free agency. The Vikings built through the draft and used FA to get over the hump by getting guys like Brett Favre and Jared Allen. Most of their team was drafted by them: Adrian Peterson, Bryant McKinnie, Percy Harvin, Sidney Rice, the Williams brothers, EJ Henderson...

And as far as the Saints go, they got incredibly lucky signing Drew Brees in FA. They didn't have to give up draft picks for him. He was also a lot younger when the Saints acquired him. Other than that I don't know of any big name FAs that the Saints acquired, other than maybe Darren Sharper.

[SkinsFanMania]

First, our 3rd round pick was used in the supplemental draft for Jeremy Jarmon. He had a pretty darn good year before his injury.

2nd, a 2nd and 2011 3/4 round pick is nothing for a franchise qb.

[bulldog]

If I were starting a team from scratch I would collect picks the first couple of years and build depth cheaply and largely ignore free agency.

The Redskins are in rebuilding mode but they are not starting over and there is a difference, one that Shanahan and Allen seem intent on making.

Yes, the team needs a LT and I think the Redskins will not come home from the draft empty handed in that regard.

But Shanahan is not going to draft a player who he thinks MIGHT be a regular 3-4 years from now like a Clausen or McCoy when he has the chance to secure the services of a franchise performer like McNabb.

Fans overrate that #2 pick against what McNabb brings to the table.

McNabb also provides an opportunity to see where we are with the younger high draft picks this team has already invested in Thomas, Davis, Kelly and in others such as Marko Mitchell who may have an NFL future as well.

With the uncertainty at qb the development of these other players was being retarded.

And while Campbell was a good soldier he is NOT a fit for offense Kyle Shanahan runs.

So, why go through all of this again with Campbell and another variation of the WCO?

Time for him to move on to a vertical passing attack where he can play action and his deep arm to make plays while being counterbalanced by a strong ground game.

But back to the picks.

I think the Redskins are going to try and add picks through trades and perhaps a trade down if Okung is taken at #2 by the Lions. We could end up with Trent Williams or Bulaga and extra picks. More too if Haynesworth and/or Campbell is dealt.

With that recomposed landscape during the draft the Redskins could still come away with picks in Rounds 1 (trade down pick), Round 2 (trade down pick), Round 3 (Haynesworth), Round 4 (Campbell), Round 4 (own pick), Round 5 (own pick) and Round 7 (own pick).

[evmiii]

Don't forget we have a little time left before the draft. I expect we'll pick up a second (maybe third) for JC, who knows who else might be some trade bait before then.

[Santana_89]

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10070/hibyeya6.gif..... nothing to see here

[Chachie]

The NFC Title game last year had two franchises built largely thru free agency.


Undeniable, Zoon. However, The other 3 teams in the NFC East have really stayed disciplined about building thru draft. If we look at divisional standings every year since Danny was here, we don't stack up well at all. We're always too old with a lopsided salary distribution. Zero depth again and again.

I'm sure that Shanny and Bru are a lot wiser about FA acquisition than Vinny and the Dan were but we still don't "get it." I blame the fans, really. We simply won't sit through lean years. We want it all and we want it now, so Snyder pours the dollars out to the shiny objects. We all suffer in the process.

Hail.

[authentic]

McNabb also buys the franchise time to groom a young QB, whether we draft him in the later rounds this year or next year where there will be a better crop of QBs available. I understand why people view aquiring McNabb as a continuation of the status quo, but its best to look a the big picture.

[amm11387]

McNabb also buys the franchise time to groom a young QB, whether we draft him in the later rounds this year or next year where there will be a better crop of QBs available. I understand why people view aquiring McNabb as a continuation of the status quo, but its best to look a the big picture.

Agreed, I see us taking a QB with our first next year

[elkabong82]

we had 10 picks in '08, so that's when lol

draft hasn't happened yet,. plenty of time still to regain some picks

[Buck812]

when other teams stop trading 33 year old vets to get younger maybe?

[Ashburn Dave]

And remember, our 3rd round pick this year is actually Jeremy Jarmon.

Folks forget this. He is our 3rd rounder this year and we got him one year early.

[amm11387]

when other teams stop trading 33 year old vets to get younger maybe?

I'm pretty unsure about our runningback moves, but it isn't like we have many options considering the amount of draft picks we have.. getting
McNabb on the other hand was solid...

I think we can make the playoffs if the WRs and TEs step it up

We get Okung and somehow another tackle who can at least stand there for 5 seconds

We pick up some depth at Safety

Haynesworth gets his act together and doesn't slowly destroy the team from the inside out

and

Our over the hill RBs scare defenses enough to set up a legit passing game (this strategy is really what it comes down to at the end of the day)

[TheMan CC47]

I do think that this team is now starting to respect the draft more.

While I agree that on first sniff, this McNugget, I mean McNabb trade does smell of Vinny; however, Vinny probably would have given up this years 1 and next years 3rd.

You get the feeling that they are not going to give up that #1 for anything

This team had a lot of holes on it and this years draft already had a few missing slots, so they did trade away most of the remainding picks to try to get what they needed to make this team competitive while trying to start saving future drafts.

Yes, I know that we trades away a 4 OR 3 next year, but that is only 1 pick and is far less than what this team has normally done.

[Art]

I see the usual suspects are in here backing up whatever the front office does.

And let's quit acting like it's McNabb vs. Manning or Leaf.

In reality it's: (McNabb for 3 seasons, 2 of which will he will be borderline Pro Bowl and the third in which he'll show severe decline)

vs.

Manning/Rivers/Roethlesburger for the rest of his career, or Leaf/Alex Smith for 3 years.


This move is stupid. And it's easy to say right now that it was good, but 4 years down the line, we're going to look back on this trade and the Brunell trade and say, "Wait...why didn't we learn from our mistakes?"

Let's just say that I will be keeping a very close eye on the careers of Bradford, Clausen, and Mccoy.

Let's presume the accuracy of your reality. It's Manning/Rivers/Rapist for the rest of their careers or Leaf/Smith/Shuler for three year versus McNabb for three.

Obviously if we KNEW we'd get the first, you'd take the first. Obviously if you knew you'd get the second you'd take McNabb. The fact you do not know, coupled with AFTER the failure of a Leaf you have been a bad team with years left to become good if you reset with another rookie is why when you CAN hedge with a quality vet you do so.

Brunnell was not as good as McNabb and was hedged here by the selection of a potential future player at that position. It's unlikely, unless Tebow falls to the fourth, that we'll take our future at the QB position in this draft because we don't have that many picks AND because McNabb is generally productive enough to fit the role without worry for at least two years before you'd HAVE to start considering the future.

That you may watch the careers of this year's QBs has no impact. Unless Bradford surprisingly falls to us at No. 4 we won't have had a chance at him. We'd be stupid to take Clausen at No. 4 and potentially McCoy goes after our second rounder which would allow you to care about his career.

The fact is we are better tomorrow AND for the three years you suspect than we would be with ANY QB in this draft, regardless of what they end up being like. We only START losing on the equation then. And every snap McNabb takes if those players are busts adds to the advantage.

And the advantage is extended. Instead of taking a franchise QB you can't protect, you now have a franchise QB you can protect with an elite LT prospect who can easily transition to protect the QB you draft in two or three years for the future.

My guess here is Shanahan wants to win early and often.

He wants a good to great team for three to five years before he goes away and leaves the team to his son with a QB of the future. My guess is the plan is, assuming success, that you take McNabb, you return your team to respectability more quickly than expected, you contend next year and you start setting up the future at QB after two or three years.

If Shanahan fails none of this plan matters.

If he succeeds it'll be perfect.

[boofMcboof]

You can't talk about free agents vs drafting without talking about the financial implications. Jeebus. Have we seriously learned nothing these past ten years? Bottom line, the roster becomes top heavy with big contracts and leaves you little wiggle room to add quality depth.

[Buck812]

I'm pretty unsure about our runningback moves, but it isn't like we have many options considering the amount of draft picks we have.. getting
McNabb on the other hand was solid...

I think we can make the playoffs if the WRs and TEs step it up

We get Okung and somehow another tackle who can at least stand there for 5 seconds

We pick up some depth at Safety

Haynesworth gets his act together and doesn't slowly destroy the team from the inside out

and

Our over the hill RBs scare defenses enough to set up a legit passing game (this strategy is really what it comes down to at the end of the day)


Unless we were one player away I would never advocate trading a high draft pick for a player who's tank is so close to empty. Thats not respecting the draft in my opinion. Thats really just disrespecting your own future and hoping to buy a couple of wins next year to keep an impatient owner content longer.

[Chicken Fried]

I see the usual suspects are in here backing up whatever the front office does.

And let's quit acting like it's McNabb vs. Manning or Leaf.

In reality it's: (McNabb for 3 seasons, 2 of which will he will be borderline Pro Bowl and the third in which he'll show severe decline)

vs.

Manning/Rivers/Roethlesburger for the rest of his career, or Leaf/Alex Smith for 3 years.


This move is stupid. And it's easy to say right now that it was good, but 4 years down the line, we're going to look back on this trade and the Brunell trade and say, "Wait...why didn't we learn from our mistakes?"

Let's just say that I will be keeping a very close eye on the careers of Bradford, Clausen, and Mccoy.
I agree completely. I'd rather take the chance on grooming our own franchise QB with a top pick than trade a valuable 2nd rounder for McNabb who we know will play pretty well for 2-3 years. Just because the draft is a crapshoot doesn't mean you don't use it. If you don't want to use retreads forever and ever, you have to man up and take a QB high in the draft and hope you picked the right one.

[HailGreen28]

What exactly were we mad at Vinny for again? I forget.....

Oh, I'm convinced we aren't going to respect the draft until Snyder is gone. Period.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I'd rather have players who can play in the NFL than players who, for the most part, are OUT of the NFL in two years. The draft's hit rate is not high.

Put it this way.

Would you prefer McNabb or Peyton Manning?

Manning, right.

Would you prefer McNabb or Ryan Leaf?

McNabb, right.

Imagine, though, the shine of taking Leaf with our No. 4 pick, knowing NOTHING of his actual play in the NFL. The big arm. Fast release. Awesome accuracy. You'd fall in love with him. And you'd be incorrect.

Would I pick Bradford over McNabb if he developed into a franchise QB WE could trade after 11 years? Sure.

But, we're much more likely to get something we KNOW works at a good level in the NFL with McNabb than any rookie. It's just as likely Bradford is Akili Smith. It's equally likely had the Eagles taken Akili Smith, no one would think squadoosh of the Eagles all these years, on their fifth new coach, seeing Reid fired by 2002 while Cincy would be an exciting, winning franchise.

Drafting a young QB you hit on alters your future for a decade. Drafting one you miss on sets you back a decade.

I'm ok with McNabb who's had fewer arm injuries than Bradford. That's one example, but you can extend it to whether you'd prefer a guy like Maake who proved his ability in the NFL who has something to prove in coming back, or a sixth rounder unlikely to be around next year.

Wow, that is the best explanation I think I have ever heard in regards to this situation. For the record, I'm hoping that Bradford is available and the Skins use the 4th pick on a QB (clausen too) because they now have a veteran QB who can teach the younger men what it takes to get it done. McNabb was a great pick up because Shannahan needed someone he could trust to run the offense. No coach wants to come into a new situation with a proven loser at the QB situation and hang his hopes on him. Look at what happened to Zorn (who was over his head anyway).

[Veretax]

Noone at 37 can play QB like McNabb come next year, that's just the truth. Now Two of those picks were gone by cerrato I think one for the debacle of the Jason taylor Trade, the other Jeremy Jarmon

[myzhi]

Disappointed with Mcnabb move. Thought, finally, we are going to stop trying dumb stop-gab maneuvers (bringing in old players) and really rebuild. Sure, Mcnabb instantly makes our team better, but does anyone believe he's going to bring a SB trophy or make us a contenders for the next decade? With 4th pick and possibly trading up, we could have drafted a franchise QB which could be our long term answer. Instead, I highly doubt we'll be bad enough again for this chance for another 3-5 years. In the future, mark my words, we are probably looking at drafting a QB bottom 1st / 2 nd and reaching again, ie PR and JC. If you ask me, they are a waste of picks since their success rate are in the low teens, but we won't have a choice since we are constantly digging our self into this hole.

When are people going to wake up from the win now mentally? A move doesn't have to make use better next year to be the smart move. NO. Better move would be on that sets us up for success long term. And, that's where I don't see the McNabb move doing. Ooh well, maybe people will wake up in another 3-5 years. Guess, I am back to patiently waiting once more.

[Skinsfan4life83]

This is stupid to me, a couple weeks ago everyone was saying how Shanny is gonna rebuild this team, now he is throwing draft picks away for 30+ year old players, if it was Vinny doing it you all would be raising holy hell, but since it's shanny yall just give the guy a pass? He has to prove that he can make this team a winner and his moves thus far reek of the same old bull****

[boofMcboof]

If you want to bring up the Saints as an example, their entire offensive and defensive lines were built through the draft. Reggie Bush, Marques Colston, and Devery Henderson were all drafted. Pierre Thomas was an undrafted free agent. Jeremy Shockey and Vilma were acquired through trade.

Darren Sharper and Drew Brees came via free agency. I'd hardly call that building through free agency.

[Skinsfan4life83]

And it is the same people n here trying to justify trading picks away, the same people who think this FO can do no wrong for some reason. I will mention no names, you know who you are

[Skinsfan4life83]

If you want to bring up the Saints as an example, their entire offensive and defensive lines were built through the draft. Reggie Bush, Marques Colston, and Devery Henderson were all drafted. Pierre Thomas was an undrafted free agent. Jeremy Shockey and Vilma were acquired through trade.

Darren Sharper and Drew Brees came via free agency. I'd hardly call that building through free agency.

Good call +1

[Skinsfan4life83]

Let's presume the accuracy of your reality. It's Manning/Rivers/Rapist for the rest of their careers or Leaf/Smith/Shuler for three year versus McNabb for three.

Obviously if we KNEW we'd get the first, you'd take the first. Obviously if you knew you'd get the second you'd take McNabb. The fact you do not know, coupled with AFTER the failure of a Leaf you have been a bad team with years left to become good if you reset with another rookie is why when you CAN hedge with a quality vet you do so.

Brunnell was not as good as McNabb and was hedged here by the selection of a potential future player at that position. It's unlikely, unless Tebow falls to the fourth, that we'll take our future at the QB position in this draft because we don't have that many picks AND because McNabb is generally productive enough to fit the role without worry for at least two years before you'd HAVE to start considering the future.

That you may watch the careers of this year's QBs has no impact. Unless Bradford surprisingly falls to us at No. 4 we won't have had a chance at him. We'd be stupid to take Clausen at No. 4 and potentially McCoy goes after our second rounder which would allow you to care about his career.

The fact is we are better tomorrow AND for the three years you suspect than we would be with ANY QB in this draft, regardless of what they end up being like. We only START losing on the equation then. And every snap McNabb takes if those players are busts adds to the advantage.

And the advantage is extended. Instead of taking a franchise QB you can't protect, you now have a franchise QB you can protect with an elite LT prospect who can easily transition to protect the QB you draft in two or three years for the future.

My guess here is Shanahan wants to win early and often.

He wants a good to great team for three to five years before he goes away and leaves the team to his son with a QB of the future. My guess is the plan is, assuming success, that you take McNabb, you return your team to respectability more quickly than expected, you contend next year and you start setting up the future at QB after two or three years.

If Shanahan fails none of this plan matters.

If he succeeds it'll be perfect.


He seems to be sacrificing this teams future for wins now, which i do not like, what happens when Shanny decides to call it quits this team will be just like the friggin lions

[Veretax]

Laugh, I'm not trying to justify trading picks away. 2 of them were gone before Shany and Allen were even here. And you know what you won't find a QB who can start and perform like McNabb can in the 2nd Round I guarantee that. Man can't please some people.

[Chachie]

This is stupid to me, a couple weeks ago everyone was saying how Shanny is gonna rebuild this team, now he is throwing draft picks away for 30+ year old players, if it was Vinny doing it you all would be raising holy hell, but since it's shanny yall just give the guy a pass? He has to prove that he can make this team a winner and his moves thus far reek of the same old bull****



I love McNabb but I agree with this post.

[KennyKhaos]

It's kinda unfair to judge Shanahan off of one one move. We only had 5 picks this year. Just 5. We used the 2nd this year to get an elite QB. A QB that played at a high level just last year, so this isn't a huge gamble. It's very possible that trading Campbell will get us a pick. We also could possibly trade down from the 4th pick and pick up two more picks. If we do in fact move Hanesworth (probably not), we could get more.

I'm just gonna wait and see. I don't see Shanahan abandoning the draft. Those are all hypothetical situations, but in order to improve we had to pursue other venues such as trades and free agency. The draft is not the only way to improve and we would have to wait 2-3 years for improvement. We just improved now. And we can still build for the future.

[Califan007]

Laugh, I'm not trying to justify trading picks away. 2 of them were gone before Shany and Allen were even here. And you know what you won't find a QB who can start and perform like McNabb can in the 2nd Round I guarantee that. Man can't please some people.
Brees was drafted in the 2nd round.

Like many here, if we had signed McNabb through FA and without giving up any draft picks I'd be doing backflips. But I tend to see it as we gave up two potential young starters for about 3, maybe 4 years of above-average QB play (sometimes way above average, yes, but sometimes rather pedestrian as well). So, no, I'm not convinced that the "draft is a crapshoot" argument is a good enough reason for trading draft picks.

I'm wondering how much of this is due to Shanahan and Allen not having "their guys" in place in terms of the scouting department (probably none lol).

[httrburgundyandgold]

I agree completely. I'd rather take the chance on grooming our own franchise QB with a top pick than trade a valuable 2nd rounder for McNabb who we know will play pretty well for 2-3 years. Just because the draft is a crapshoot doesn't mean you don't use it. If you don't want to use retreads forever and ever, you have to man up and take a QB high in the draft and hope you picked the right one.

So many QBs bust every year there is no guarantee you wont get a Ryan Leaf no matter how high you draft him. I have faith in Shanny and McNabb, Elway was older than McNabb is when he and Shanny teamed up so its not like he requires a young QB to groom, and he may not even want one. Who says he wont take that franchise QB next year because lets face it who would you rather groom a rookie QB, Campbell or McNabb? I would want McNabb.

[Spooky]

Redskins have alway depended on FA especially in the 70's and 80's. This did not start recently.

[FrFan]

"It was noted to Shanahan that the acquisition of Donovan McNabb certainly gives the impression that the team is being constructed so that it could win right away. "That's completely false," Shanahan said.
He said the team's veteran signings during free agency were more a matter of filling holes and adding depth." Link (http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/)
Moreover I have a hard time imaging Allahan will go to the draft with only 4 picks (including only one in the first 3 rounds). I think he is going to trade players such as AH and JC for draft picks.
For example, maybe unlikely to happen but it would be great if we could get the Titans' 16th for AH.:point2sky

[Veretax]

Brees was drafted in the 2nd round.




You apparently missed my point by mentioning Brees. He was drafted in 2001 and only played in one game all season. McNabb is ready to start right now and you know what you have. Rookies at #2 have a higher percentage of not being ready year 1 or even after that according to statistics.

I basically see this as McNabb vs McCoy or Tebow or LeFevour or Skelton, and you don't know that McCoy or Tebow don't get taken in the 1st. And its questionable how long guys like Skelton and LeFevour would have to sit before they would be ready to play.

I understand we'd prefer not to give up draft picks, but if Shany believed JC just isn't worth his time then we need a solution for next year. Bringing in Donovan for 3-4 years is better than drafting a rookie in that case.

[Capt Rich Fla]

I aint gonna start a thread about it, but it would be a good thread.

I would like to know about our pick givaways. Who in the past 10 years have the skins given picks to, who they got with those picks, and just how well those guys have done for their teams. Especially the picks from 1st round to 4th round. Are there any probowlers that have been gained from giveaways?

[CallMeGreen]

This is stupid to me, a couple weeks ago everyone was saying how Shanny is gonna rebuild this team, now he is throwing draft picks away for 30+ year old players, if it was Vinny doing it you all would be raising holy hell, but since it's shanny yall just give the guy a pass? He has to prove that he can make this team a winner and his moves thus far reek of the same old bull****
So give him a chance already. Key difference to consider - we have seen many (but not all) of Cerrato's trade/FA maneuvers fail, note the past tense. None of Shanahan's moves have played a single meaningful game for this team yet. Only then will we know if these or any future moves are bad ones, despite how much they APPEAR similar to mistakes made in the past.


So many QBs bust every year there is no guarantee you wont get a Ryan Leaf no matter how high you draft him. I have faith in Shanny and McNabb, Elway was older than McNabb is when he and Shanny teamed up so its not like he requires a young QB to groom, and he may not even want one. Who says he wont take that franchise QB next year because lets face it who would you rather groom a rookie QB, Campbell or McNabb? I would want McNabb.
I've said this before, but how do we really know that Bradford/Clausen isn't a repeat of Shuler/Dilfer? That year we had our choice of both and would've come up short either way (despite Dilfer's modest success later in his career). Maybe it's another Couch/McNabb/Smith draft (if you factor in McCoy with SB and JClaw), but even that year was a 67% failure for top-drafted QBs.

But unless Colt Brennan's somehow wowing Shanahan and we're just not hearing about it, I still think we come away with another QB out of this draft. You pretty much need 4 QBs to get through training camp anyway.

[Califan007]

You apparently missed my point by mentioning Brees. He was drafted in 2001 and only played in one game all season. McNabb is ready to start right now and you know what you have. Rookies at #2 have a higher percentage of not being ready year 1 or even after that according to statistics.
It's worrying about this year, and seemingly this year alone, that has played a significant part in the mediocre results of the last 10 years, though.

With Gibbs, we followed a similar path as we are following now: trade draft pick(s) for a veteran QB nearing the end of his career so that the returning veteran coach can feel like he has leadership, proven talent and a sense of stability on the field...then draft a QB in the 2nd year of the newly hired coach's tenure, even if we have to give up even more draft picks to do so. Ultimately it may have been better for the franchise if Gibbs had simply stayed with Ramsey for 2004 and got a cheap vet QB as backup, kept the #3 pick we traded for Brunell in 2004, and drafted Cooley with it so that we wouldn't have to give up yet another pick to move up into the 3rd round to draft him...then used whatever extra picks we ended up giving up for Cooley and Campbell in 2004, 2005 and 2006 for young depth. Had Campbell panned out of course it would have (could have) been worth it...but if he doesn't pan out you've set the franchise even further back because of the wasted extra draft picks. We could have kept the 2006 1st rounder IN 2006 and used it on a QB instead of moving it up a year to get Campbell (or used it to try and acquire Brees).

The thing is, it's not about "hindsight is 20/20" because you don't have to know ahead of time how things would work out...the scenario I just detailed only required a change in philosophy on the coach and FO's part back then. A philosophy that positions the team to be able to take full advantage of whatever opportunities arise in the future. I swear, if I hear us fans saying "too bad we don't have that 2nd rounder anymore" when there's someone worthwhile available ONE MORE TIME...lol...

If Gibbs' philosophy had been to "take our lumps early and build through the draft" he would have been ok with not trading for a "trusted" vet QB and would have made do with Ramsey for a year... kept our third rounder...and the rest would have fallen in place like dominoes. I'm not saying McNabb won't be any better than Brunell, I'm saying whether he is or not is more or less irrelevant. Those two draft picks we gave up for him could easily have turned into 2 very good starting quality players for the Skins by 2012. By contrast, McNabb might be on his last legs in 2012.

So in my eyes, I don't really care if a drafted QB in the 2nd round would be ready to start and play as well as McNabb from Day One of the 2010 season. I just don't like missing out on acquiring good, young talent that could be starting by the 2011 and 2012 seasons.

Now, if they are able to recoup draft picks and the OLine ends up being bolstered to a significant degree, it could be worth it. But I gotta wait and hear that they DID do both of those things before I nod my head fully in approval lol...there's ZERO doubt that McNabb instantly upgrades the QB position, but what other positions have been "weakened" due to a lack of draft picks? OLine? LB unit? Running backs? All-around depth?...

[Audible_Red40]

A new coach needs players to fit his system and wants to win. The McNabb trade gives us the best chance to win right now. I am sure "this franchise" respects the draft but could not fill all the holes it needs to be successful in their minds.

[pointyfootball]

I aint gonna start a thread about it, but it would be a good thread.

I would like to know about our pick givaways. Who in the past 10 years have the skins given picks to, who they got with those picks, and just how well those guys have done for their teams. Especially the picks from 1st round to 4th round. Are there any probowlers that have been gained from giveaways?


2005 5th round (Phi): Trent Cole
2006 4th round (Den): Brandon Marshall

[ST21]

Eh. New regime in town. You can't really blame them for our lack of draft picks this year. Now if this continues next year or the year after, then yes, it's troubling.

They have already traded one away for next year (a 3rd of 4th)....that puts us in 2012 minimum to go in with all our picks.

[ST21]

You apparently missed my point by mentioning Brees. He was drafted in 2001 and only played in one game all season. McNabb is ready to start right now and you know what you have. Rookies at #2 have a higher percentage of not being ready year 1 or even after that according to statistics.

I basically see this as McNabb vs McCoy or Tebow or LeFevour or Skelton, and you don't know that McCoy or Tebow don't get taken in the 1st. And its questionable how long guys like Skelton and LeFevour would have to sit before they would be ready to play.

I understand we'd prefer not to give up draft picks, but if Shany believed JC just isn't worth his time then we need a solution for next year. Bringing in Donovan for 3-4 years is better than drafting a rookie in that case.

No, you miss the point. Instead of rebuilding the team like what is needed, Shanny and Co. decided to try the old form of win now attitude!!! We had a QB in Jason Cambell who could get us through the rebuilding years. Not a great QB, but who cares......you are rebuilding!!! If we luck up we make the playoffs with Campbell, if not, that's nothing we haven't seen for most of the Cerrato era anyway. You keep your picks!!! With the 1st and 2nd we had this year, it is hard pressed for me to think that we could not have had two starting OL from opening day!!!

[santana_4_prez]

When Kyle Shanahan takes over in about 4 years.

[Art]

He seems to be sacrificing this teams future for wins now, which i do not like, what happens when Shanny decides to call it quits this team will be just like the friggin lions

Ludicrous.

He's trying to solidify his chances to win now.

NOW all we've done is trade an unknown, uncertain, MORE LIKELY TO FAIL than succeed second-round pick for McNabb. The effect of now is the loss of one totally unknown player for this year's team. We lose another entirely unknown player for next year's team. In return, we have stability and ability at THE ONE position which matters.

AND we've given ourselves the ability to select someone to protect him to fill two holes with better possible success rates. And, again, presuming Shanahan doesn't suck and finally starts a successful program, the team can protect the future AFTER McNabb because of the moves for McNabb. If Shanahan works out, we'll have 15 to 20 years of Shanahan rule in the father and the son.

It'll start with 4 years or so with McNabb, who'll begin the handoff in two or three years to the future QB, protected by a quality left tackle. Those of you who are so in love with the draft probably should hope we lose all our games every year. That way we get better draft picks each round.

Hell, to follow your logic, EVERY single time we win, we HURT our chances to win the future by falling later in the draft and each pick you fall you lower your chances to find someone better.

I'm not against the draft in the slightest.

But you give me a known NFL player at a good deal for unknown NFL players and I'll take it.

And, with no cap, frankly, the draft may begin taking less and less importance in team building because teams with money will never HAVE to blow the first three to five years developing a quality, non-star. They can just pluck them from others leaving themselves with higher draft picks to find stars, and leaving the poor teams with 11 draft picks every year.

[Rudechain]

No, you miss the point. Instead of rebuilding the team like what is needed, Shanny and Co. decided to try the old form of win now attitude!!! We had a QB in Jason Cambell who could get us through the rebuilding years. Not a great QB, but who cares......you are rebuilding!!! If we luck up we make the playoffs with Campbell, if not, that's nothing we haven't seen for most of the Cerrato era anyway. You keep your picks!!! With the 1st and 2nd we had this year, it is hard pressed for me to think that we could not have had two starting OL from opening day!!!


I don't think it's quite as drastic as your submitting.

I think it's more of let's remain competitive and pick up a quarterback to groom for the future. Maybe Allen and Shanahan felt the price would have been way to steep to move up and take Bradford, ( most likely would have cost at least a 1st and 2nd rounder and that is a minimal expectation)

JC has not signed his tender so technically you could not count him. He does ot have to sign and could decide to hang it up. ( doubt he would, but as of now he is not under contract and before the trade that left Grossman and Brennan at your depth chart)

As it stands now, the Skins don't have to take a QB this draft and can wait till next year when the QB talent pool is supposedly deeper and better overall. Then they can groom that QB while McNabb plays out his 3-4 year extension.

None of us are privy to the inner machinations of NFL front offices. Perhaps they felt that with the OL available in the draft, only a targeted few fit the ZBS. We simply don't know what they are thinking.

We also don't know if they are involved in trade down negotiations, trading players for picks, or targeting OL that may be cut after the draft that better fit the ZBS.

The sky is not falling. I repeat, the sky is not falling.

[CG]

Are more picks better than less? Yes of course. I'm going to give Shanahan the benefit of the doubt on this one. Maybe after his review, he saw that only one (or perhaps none) of the QBs in this year's draft class had what it took to be franchise QBs. Its stupid to draft a QB simply to draft one, if they don't grade out.

It was very likely that either the first or the second rounder was going to be spent on a QB this year anyway. I don't know why everyone is giving McNabb a 2-3 year ceiling. He's the same age as Manning and Brady and no one is sending those guys to the retirement home. Favre is still playing at 40 and Warner had a great season at 39. Donovan will only be 34 in November. There will be QBs available in every draft and we've just bought ourselves a couple of years to insure that we are in a position to select the best QB available over that time span.

The difference now is that Cerrato would've thrown the farm at the Eagles to get McNabb. Do we remember the ludicrous offers that were being made for Cutler and Chad Ochocinco last season? They were offering 1st round picks up like candy.

We're going to get a 4th or 5th for Campbell, which is prime territory for picking up a guard or center. The OL, RBs and DL need to get younger for sure but on average we're actually pretty young at WR, TE, CB, S and LB.

[Old Bay]

We could still trade players to gain picks this year, or even trade back during the draft to get more picks. Also, we lost this year's pick because of the Jarmon pick up last year. It is an unsettling trend when looking at the last 10 years, but this new front office really needs time to do their thing without having to worry about the Ghost of Vinny oogling over their shoulders.

[Taylor 36]

Why are people going chicken little when we haven't even had one practice snap under this new regime and FO structure? Do people really believe that the Redskins are the ONLY franchise that has ever traded draft picks to pick up veterans before?

Why would Shanny want to bring in a rookie QB to be groomed behind Campbell and Grossman? Does anyone really think that any rookie QB would be better off sitting behind those two and learning from them?

This way, Shanny guarantees we are at the very least competitive next season. We aren't going to be waiting around for three seasons for JC to get the basics of a new system. Plus, when we bring in the future QB of the franchise (either this draft or next year), he will have a QB to sit behind that can actually mentor him and teach him what TO do, not just what he should NOT do.

[pastha40]

Haynesworth will be moved for picks and perhaps Campbell as well. I'm all for building this team via the draft but we needed a qb and Mcnabb was the best available. We havent had a probowl qb since when...the 1999 season with Brad Johnson?

[ntotoro]

I have to admit, this offseason has turned out better than I expected.

I knew Shananananananahan was going to rebuild, but I didn't see the trade for McNabb in my wildest thoughts. He's not the same McNabb of even 4-5 years ago, but he's a vocal leader, something we have lacked at the QB position. He'll make the line look better than Campbell ever could. Used some of the Spring to jettison a bit of waste product and got some veteran players on the cheap in the meantime.

I think the draft for the next 4-5 years will have more than this year, obviously, which is being used to shore up some immediate areas. The FO probably go LT with the #4 now and get a QB later, then another QB next year. Don't forget, Campbell will probably bring a mid or low draft pick and we'll definitely get something in-return if Combsworth is traded.

This team was 4-12 last year. You can't fix a team with that many problems through the draft alone. No FO or Coach gets that kind of time in the NFL these days.

[LaxBuddy21]

I really dont understand the draft crowd who thinks every draft pick is more valuable than gold apparently. I would much prefer a team with veterans that has young depth behind it. Players that learn from players that do well will eventually do well themselves I would expect. I dont want a team full of young guys where maybe 50% pan out. As the veterans age, you plug in the youth here and there. That is how you keep a team going for years. Anyone really think Shanny is not planning to fill our depth chart with young players over the next 2-3 years? Right now, he is doing what he can to secure the veteran leadership required to make us competitive and to groom the next generation of players. We will get the next generation of players over the next couple of years. THIS is how you build a team. You just flat out do not fill a team with rookies without the vet leadership to groom them into solid NFL players.

[kvarlo12000]

I wouldn't say those teams built through free agency. The Vikings built through the draft and used FA to get over the hump by getting guys like Brett Favre and Jared Allen. Most of their team was drafted by them: Adrian Peterson, Bryant McKinnie, Percy Harvin, Sidney Rice, the Williams brothers, EJ Henderson...

And as far as the Saints go, they got incredibly lucky signing Drew Brees in FA. They didn't have to give up draft picks for him. He was also a lot younger when the Saints acquired him. Other than that I don't know of any big name FAs that the Saints acquired, other than maybe Darren Sharper.


So in theory we would have been better with free agency going after drew brees instead of drafting JC and letting him wait in the wings. Which of course we would, but what if we had drafted Bradford this year and he turns into another JC and McNABB goes to 3 straight probowls.

[Art]

I'm not sure I fully buy the premise that rebuilding doesn't mean being able to win. Last year's team was 4-12. We weren't rebuilding. We just sucked. Shanahan comes in and immediately cuts a lot of vets, many we cared for. He then avoids big time free agency, locking on to blue collar, cheap players, or former stars. ALL with something to prove. All with a reason to excel, whether to finally be a regular starter or to regain past glory. Then we enter a draft with five picks.

We can go QB and avoid other holes and hope we can compete as we proceed. Instead, we trade one of the five to fill one hole allowing us to fill another with our limited draft resources. I suspect we have a couple that won't get filled, but, a team with a sound QB and capable LT can compete on offense even if everything's not perfect on offense or defense.

The ONLY reason to be negative on the move for McNabb is you incorrectly believe Campbell is any good.

[endzone_dave]

I really dont understand the draft crowd who thinks every draft pick is more valuable than gold apparently. I would much prefer a team with veterans that has young depth behind it...

Problem is, you can't get that depth if you always use your draft picks to trade for the veterans. I would imagine there is no team in the NFL who has traded their draft picks for veterans more than the Redskins in the last 10 years. When will the team learn to stop doing that?

[Crazy Levi]

I haven't had much opinion about the McNabb trade since it occurred on Sunday. However, when I realized that only 4 picks were to be had this year, it made feel like this franchise will never be committed to rebuilding our team the proper way through several years of competent drafting. Although Shannan and Allen are "running" the show, it appears that we're getting older on offense and not trying to field young talented players to groom for the next 12+ years. The reason why we all love Cooley and Orakpo so much is because their homegrown and were brought up the right way....even under the chaotic Cerrato regime. The purpose of the draft is to acquire young talent that will help the franchise compete for a decade.....however, this team continues to throw picks away for aging players and its awfully frustrating, irritating, and annoying. At some point we must take our lumps and know that after sucking for 2 or 3 years, the team will be set for the next 10 years.

There is actually a lot of young talent on offense. You are forgetting Kelly, Thomas, and Davis, three Snyderatto drafts who all looked to be coming on big last season. I excpect (pray) that at least two of those guys have breakout years in 2010.

I want to see what happens this year, I actually like what I see. Snyderatto sacrificed the line by drafting many of these guys, but maybe it will actually pay off in the long run.

It's all about fixing the line, and the offseason isn't over yet. I think it's too early for posts like the one you made. Get back to us in September.

[Jook98]

Problem is, you can't get that depth if you always use your draft picks to trade for the veterans. I would imagine there is no team in the NFL who has traded their draft picks for veterans more than the Redskins in the last 10 years. When will the team learn to stop doing that?

I completely agree. You want YOUNG depth? Or how bout just depth in general? Because Redskins teams in the past few years have greatly lacked it. Want to know why? Because we've traded our picks year after year.

A perfect example would be having to stick in an old Troy Vincent as safety a few years ago. Or how about Jason Fabini in at tackle during a playoff game? Sure we had depth. But it was old and unproductive.

[Art]

I may have missed it, but we still have Levi Jones, right?

The addition of Hicks provides legitimate depth at right tackle and/or guard and a possible starter at either spot, which itself assures depth to a degree. Unlike last year when we had a Top 5 left tackle and no roster depth there -- though we knew who was available and found depth -- this year we'll likely have Jones either to start early or as a valued, key reserve.

Reinhart played well. Williams is adequate depth on the inside for Rabach. Say Hicks wins the right tackle job. Heyer, Jones, Williams and Reinhart represent pretty fair depth on the offensive line, though, most lines hope to never use their depth if they stay healthy. Now, is the starting group in the case of those reserves of Hicks, Williams, Rabach, Dockery and Rookie a great line? Is it a line ideally built for Shanahan's presumed style?

Maybe and maybe. If the LT is elite, it can be a great line. If not, it'll kind of suck. Given what we imagine to be a superior offensive system allowing defenses fewer obvious plays to defend, an interesting stable of runners, a legitimate, still pretty mobile QB and a young set of coming receivers as mentioned above, with vets like Cooley and Moss, the offense has potential to surpass the defense in production and ability this season.

Given the offense will change less than the defense from a system perspective and the players are already somewhat more suited to the WCO than the defense is to the 3-4 we really have two major holes on offense prior to McNabb.

We needed a quality QB.

We needed a quality LT.

The offensive line depth in this draft at tackle is great. QB depth is not great. Next year QB depth is better from early reports. Seems to me the team felt it could fill both spots this way, given a team was trading a QB and not a LT, and could be more competitive while growing under the system.

If Shanahan fails here, it'll unlikely be due to McNabb not being worthwhile. It'll MORE likely be to the defense blowing up and sucking while injuries to the aging players and slower growth to the youngsters keep us down.

[Passizle]

I dont know what to think. I am not happy with the McNabb deal. Not because I like JC, but because we are giving up two picks to get a 33 year old, easily injured QB behind one the worst offensive lines (the past two years running). Lets not get too excited. We have seen McNabb w/out protection. It aint pretty, and I dread Grossman coming out when McNabb gets hurt.
I think JC could have been servicable for one year while the team rebuilds. Now... with McNabb, there are going to be expectations. A playoff appearance at minimum. McNabb is an upgrade at QB, but the cost, for the Skins with limited draft picks as it is... I dont like it. I also donr like that fact that Shanny led the QB's on this team to beleive there was going to be an open competition. We know this is a lie now... and that cant be sitting well with any QB (not named McNabb) on the Skins roster.
If we can recoup (sp) the second rounder by trading JC, then I will feel much better about this move. I dont think that happense though. With the lack of interest in JC, I think he sticks around as the backup (by having no other choice).

[LaxBuddy21]

Problem is, you can't get that depth if you always use your draft picks to trade for the veterans. I would imagine there is no team in the NFL who has traded their draft picks for veterans more than the Redskins in the last 10 years. When will the team learn to stop doing that?

Fixing the abomination that was last years team doesnt happen in one year. The first step is to get a solid starting squad before you worry about depth. Would you rather have depth and no solid starters? You fill in the depth over the next 2-3 seasons to learn from the solid starters to build a team for years to come. Shanahan has traded one draft pick this year and one next year for a solid starting QB. The other draft picks were not his doing. He will most likely add one or two picks back as well. So he will get 5 or 6 young players from the draft this year plus any undrafted players that he may try out. Next year he will hopefully add another 6-7 and the same the following year. This is all while fielding a competitive starting lineup. What is seriously wrong with that? Its exactly how team building should be done IMO.

[Braxford]

The draft is great but McNabb is an instant upgrade ( and better than any other QB the Skins could get in the 2nd round this year and will be for the next two years or so) since the Skins likely will not get Bradford and appear not to be sold on Clausen.

IF the Skins could somehow get JC for a second round pick that would be great. But this is a deep draft and a he is definately worth a 3rd and a 5th imho. Call up Al Davis he doesn't know what to do with that 2nd round pick anyways. Cambpell and Carolina could work well, what if Matt Moore does not pan out?

Skins draft Okung at 4, or trade back for more picks which will be two more OL. In the 4th if they do not trade back then they go OL again. If they do trade back then the go best LB or RB.

[Renegade7]

There's always been a proper way to go about being aggressive, and now we're seeing it. As many have already mentioned, the trades are different, as are the signings. And at this rate, we're going to draft an offensive linemen in the first round in nearly a decade. I call that progress.

[Taylor 36]

The ONLY reason to be negative on the move for McNabb is you incorrectly believe Campbell is any good.:applause: Quote of the month!!! :applause:

[Califan007]

:applause: Quote of the month!!! :applause:

Not to me, it isn't lol :ols:...It's severely inaccurate.

"The ONLY reason to be negative on the move for McNabb is you incorrectly believe Campbell is any good."

No, there are other valid reasons to not like the trade for McNabb:

1) You feel Bradford, Claussen or McCoy will end up being great QBs and would be with the Skins for their entire careers instead of just the last three.

2) You think McNabb isn't the same QB he used to be and isn't worth a 2nd and (possibly) 3rd round draft pick.

3) You are a believer in the "Fat Guys First" philosophy and would have preferred BOTH top draft picks be spent on O-Line this year.

4) You believe that, in a truly open competition, Colt Brennan would prove his worth and show himself to Shanahan as being worthy of investing time in.

5) You don't think there are nearly enough pieces in place on the team to warrant the "luxury" of giving up draft picks for only a few years of quality QB play and "leadership".

6) You think the FO doesn't have a true long-range plan and are repeating the mistakes of almost every Redskins regime of the past.

7) And, yes, you feel Campbell would have thrived under both the Shanahan's guidance and thus a move like this was not truly needed.

And I'm sure there are other viewpoints/opinions that are just as valid. Personally I'm getting tired of the "You must be a JC Lover" type of response being used as some sort of catch-all. Believe it or not there ARE legitimate reasons for questioning, even doubting, the move to get McNabb, and they don't all center around one's love of Jason Campbell. Hell, I don't even really believe in any of the reasons I listed, but it was damn easy for me to come up with them.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Not to me, it isn't lol :ols:...It's severely inaccurate.

"The ONLY reason to be negative on the move for McNabb is you incorrectly believe Campbell is any good."

No, there are other valid reasons to not like the trade for McNabb:

1) You feel Bradford, Claussen or McCoy will end up being great QBs and would be with the Skins for their entire careers instead of just the last three.

2) You think McNabb isn't the same QB he used to be and isn't worth a 2nd and (possibly) 3rd round draft pick.

3) You are a believer in the "Fat Guys First" philosophy and would have preferred BOTH top draft picks be spent on O-Line this year.

4) You believe that, in a truly open competition, Colt Brennan would prove his worth and show himself to Shanahan as being worthy of investing time in.

5) You don't think there are nearly enough pieces in place on the team to warrant the "luxury" of giving up draft picks for only a few years of quality QB play and "leadership".

6) You think the FO doesn't have a true long-range plan and are repeating the mistakes of almost every Redskins regime of the past.

7) And, yes, you feel Campbell would have thrived under both the Shanahan's guidance and thus a move like this was not truly needed.

And I'm sure there are other viewpoints/opinions that are just as valid. Personally I'm getting tired of the "You must be a JC Lover" type of response being used as some sort of catch-all. Believe it or not there ARE legitimate reasons for questioning, even doubting, the move to get McNabb, and they don't all center around one's love of Jason Campbell. Hell, I don't even really believe in any of the reasons I listed, but it was damn easy for me to come up with them.

Nice post Cali!

The problem is with neglecting the draft for veterans, people think they are getting the same player to play with them that played in the previous organization, but schemes, and personnel change all that, we are a shinning example as an organization of how signing and trading for veteran personnel DOES NOT WORK, you have to build the majority of your team through the draft, you add a veteran here or there when you have built a team and need someone to put you over the hump, we never have the patience for that so we never build a core, our veterans become the core with no one to put us over the hump because up until now there's been a salary cap and no money left to then get the guys to put us over that hump, further more how many high profile veteran have basically come in and fell on their faces with us?

We have the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence mentality, the personnel dept. has no real ability to evaluate talent, so they continue to take what is viewed as the easy way out with established talent, and to further that they are so unsure of their ability to judge unestablished talent, guy's who may be able to play, or need some experience get thrown by the wayside for a name and a over blown contract.

Everyone wants to say McNabb is by far the right choice for us, of coarse where have we heard that before, at least before a high priced veteran was brought in and failed miserably?

McNabb is a sure thing? What happens if he is done as a QB? The Eagles don't exactly have a track record of giving up players who have a lot left in the tank, and then to ship a position player as important as the QB position to a division rival in whom could significantly hinder their ability to make the playoffs next season seems skeptical at the very least?

Yes you can miss with a draft pick, but we miss just as much, if not more with veteran signings, and we will compound the problem of a veteran signing by forcing him on the team in an attempt to some how justify his signing as we saw with Brunell. If we actually had someone with an ability to evaluate talent beyond the top 10 picks we would value the draft far more than we do, but without fail year in and year out we get to the draft and low and behold no picks! In a draft where we should be looking to load up on picks, we are having a fire sale, yet teams like the Eagles, and Patriots are stocking up like this is their last draft. That is the difference between winning organizations, and losing organizations!

[Rufus T Firefly]

Not to me, it isn't lol :ols:...It's severely inaccurate.

"The ONLY reason to be negative on the move for McNabb is you incorrectly believe Campbell is any good."

No, there are other valid reasons to not like the trade for McNabb:

1) You feel Bradford, Claussen or McCoy will end up being great QBs and would be with the Skins for their entire careers instead of just the last three.

2) You think McNabb isn't the same QB he used to be and isn't worth a 2nd and (possibly) 3rd round draft pick.

3) You are a believer in the "Fat Guys First" philosophy and would have preferred BOTH top draft picks be spent on O-Line this year.

4) You believe that, in a truly open competition, Colt Brennan would prove his worth and show himself to Shanahan as being worthy of investing time in.

5) You don't think there are nearly enough pieces in place on the team to warrant the "luxury" of giving up draft picks for only a few years of quality QB play and "leadership".

6) You think the FO doesn't have a true long-range plan and are repeating the mistakes of almost every Redskins regime of the past.

7) And, yes, you feel Campbell would have thrived under both the Shanahan's guidance and thus a move like this was not truly needed.

And I'm sure there are other viewpoints/opinions that are just as valid. Personally I'm getting tired of the "You must be a JC Lover" type of response being used as some sort of catch-all. Believe it or not there ARE legitimate reasons for questioning, even doubting, the move to get McNabb, and they don't all center around one's love of Jason Campbell. Hell, I don't even really believe in any of the reasons I listed, but it was damn easy for me to come up with them.

Yeah, but claiming Campbell is one of the worst players in NFL history is automatically praise-worthy, regardless of whether it makes any sense in connection to the subject being discussed. So, your post is therefore a big fail.

[stevemcqueen1]

Eh. New regime in town. You can't really blame them for our lack of draft picks this year. Now if this continues next year or the year after, then yes, it's troubling.

Except they are traded a high pick this year and a mid pick next year. Everyone loved the Jason Taylor trade just as much as people love this one and he was off the team after one year. McNabb isn't under contract after this year either...

[Atlass]

I haven't had much opinion about the McNabb trade since it occurred on Sunday. However, when I realized that only 4 picks were to be had this year, it made feel like this franchise will never be committed to rebuilding our team the proper way through several years of competent drafting. Although Shannan and Allen are "running" the show, it appears that we're getting older on offense and not trying to field young talented players to groom for the next 12+ years. The reason why we all love Cooley and Orakpo so much is because their homegrown and were brought up the right way....even under the chaotic Cerrato regime. The purpose of the draft is to acquire young talent that will help the franchise compete for a decade.....however, this team continues to throw picks away for aging players and its awfully frustrating, irritating, and annoying. At some point we must take our lumps and know that after sucking for 2 or 3 years, the team will be set for the next 10 years.

Jesus Christ, let it go. The past Skin teams have nothing to do with this one. Shanny got a pro bowl QB for a second round pick. This is not TecmoBowl where you can just trade for a stud QB. These thing don't come around very often.

If someone can do this for me you'll see something amazing.

Elway's Stats before Shanny/After Shanny
Brian Greise's stats with Shanny and whithout Shanny
Jake Plummer before Shanny/After Shanny

You compare those stats and you will absolutley realize how good of an offensive genius Shanny is. McNabb I promise you, even with the OL being what it is or the WRs being mediocre, MacNabb will have a top three season this year as appossed to his other years in Philly.

The Skins will be awesome this year.!!!

[TK]

I may have missed it, but we still have Levi Jones, right?

Nope. He's still out there. He's had a smidge of interest from a few teams but hasn't signed with anyone. If we pass on Okung, look for us to sign him after the Draft. Even if we take Okung we may still bring Levi back to battle for the RT spot against Heyer & Adams if we end up bringing him, in as well.

[JimmyZ123]

Nope. He's still out there. He's had a smidge of interest from a few teams but hasn't signed with anyone. If we pass on Okung, look for us to sign him after the Draft. Even if we take Okung we may still bring Levi back to battle for the RT spot against Heyer & Adams if we end up bringing him, in as well.

i really hate the "if we pass on okung" part. you've put this idea of levi being the LT this year out there before. PLEASE DONT LET THIS HAPPEN!! PPLLLEEEEAAAASSSSSEEEEEEE!!!!

[apickmans]

Nope. He's still out there. He's had a smidge of interest from a few teams but hasn't signed with anyone. If we pass on Okung, look for us to sign him after the Draft. Even if we take Okung we may still bring Levi back to battle for the RT spot against Heyer & Adams if we end up bringing him, in as well.

TK,

any Idea how interested we are in Adams? I bet hes asking for quite a lot considering hes the biggest FA(tackle) name out there.

[Rdskns2000]

This is a franchise that has historically traded pics for players.

[mi6]

Just plain stupid.

We seem to be given away picks as though our draft cup is overflowing ...

NUTTY move. 3 picks to draft Jason Campbell. And, now 2 picks for McNabb!

[TheMan CC47]

I'm not sure I fully buy the premise that rebuilding doesn't mean being able to win. Last year's team was 4-12. We weren't rebuilding. We just sucked.
:ols: Truer words were never spoken

[ConnSKINS26]

Just plain stupid.

We seem to be given away picks as though our draft cup is overflowing ...

NUTTY move. 3 picks to draft Jason Campbell. And, now 2 picks for McNabb!

Dude, that has nothing to do with Shanahan. That was FIVE years ago. TWO head coaches ago. THREE offensive systems ago. Shanahan isn't going to operate off of what Gibbs and then Vinny did just to avoid bringing back scary memories for us fans. We just have to believe that he's got a different plan, even if he's using some of the same tools to go about making it happen.

[TheMan CC47]

I'll try to make my points short and concise; I know that people from California aren't very good with logic.


Not to me, it isn't lol :ols:...It's severely inaccurate.

No, there are other valid reasons to not like the trade for McNabb:

1) You feel Bradford, Claussen or McCoy will end up being great QBs and would be with the Skins for their entire careers instead of just the last three.

If this could happen that would be awesome, but reality says that the odds of it happening are not in our favor.

How many times throughout the long history of the NFL has a QB been a one of the best players in the NFL for their entire career? Now, how many times have such players remained with one (1) team their entire career? How many times has it happened withen the past 15 years?

The numbers are getting smaller and smaller and they weren't that big to begin with. Now when you consider that there is already a QB in the league that will probably do all of this in Peyton Manning, the chances of another QB pulling this feet of anytime soon are slim.


2) You think McNabb isn't the same QB he used to be and isn't worth a 2nd and (possibly) 3rd round draft pick.

McNabb isn't the same Qb that he used to be. Nobody is arguing this point, however; there is still a lot left in his tank and he is worth a lot more than a 2nd and maybe a 3rd.

They way you acting, one would think that we gave up this years and next years 1st round picks. :doh: :stupid:


3) You are a believer in the "Fat Guys First" philosophy and would have preferred BOTH top draft picks be spent on O-Line this year.

I am actually a big believer that football games are won and lost in the trenches. If you don't have the big guys up front you are not going to win many games.

This move has actually allowed us to develope our O-line, while having a QB that will be able to not only help them in their learning process, but make up for their mistakes with his quick decision making, quick release and his courage to throw the ball down field. All while allowing his replacement learn and not get beat up by the learing and error prone young O-line.


4) You believe that, in a truly open competition, Colt Brennan would prove his worth and show himself to Shanahan as being worthy of investing time in.
Ummm....You realize that this point contradics your 1st point right? If Colt is the answer then why would you want us to go after Bradford, McCoy or anybody else. That would only slow the progress of helping out O-line that you were talking about in your 3rd point. (Parents, this is what happens when you send your kids to public shcool in California)

Anyways back to this point, I too believe that Colt is going to be a super star in this league some day and pray that he will be so for this team. That being said, the McNabb trade gives Colt a Pro Bowl QB to learn from as oppose to a QB that couldn't start for the Raiders (you know that California team that does so well every year). Colt will be able to learn how McNabb prepares for a game and how he handles sucess and failure. All while learning the Shananhan system, and if he is truely the answer then we will not have to use a draft pick on a QB next offseason.



5) You don't think there are nearly enough pieces in place on the team to warrant the "luxury" of giving up draft picks for only a few years of quality QB play and "leadership".

Really? You know that we are talking about a 2nd and a 4th maybe a 3rd, right? While pro bowlers are found in these rounds, there are lot more 3 years and out of the league found here. This is a ludicrous point, and I feel dumber just for reading it.


6) You think the FO doesn't have a true long-range plan and are repeating the mistakes of almost every Redskins regime of the past.

I am very confident that this FO has a long term plan. Now whether that plan will work out, I have no idea. However, I am very happy that there is at least a plan of attack for the future as oppose to we'll see what happens this year and make adjustments next year.


7) And, yes, you feel Campbell would have thrived under both the Shanahan's guidance and thus a move like this was not truly needed.

Campbell would have become the best damn towel boy in history under the guidance of the Shanahan's, but we don't need a towel boy we need a QB and that is something Campbell will never be.



Hell, I don't even really believe in any of the reasons I listed, but it was damn easy for me to come up with them.

Well you came up with some pretty weak ones.

[Califan007]

I'll try to make my points short and concise; I know that people from California aren't very good with logic.
You do realize, of course, that you didn't show any lack of logic in my post, right? The only thing you showed is that you don't agree with it lol...go here: www.dictionary.com ...and look up "logic" before you attempt to use that banal insult again. Just a tip :thumbsup:




If this could happen that would be awesome, but reality says that the odds of it happening are not in our favor.

How many times throughout the long history of the NFL has a QB been a one of the best players in the NFL for their entire career? Now, how many times have such players remained with one (1) team their entire career? How many times has it happened withen the past 15 years?

The numbers are getting smaller and smaller and they weren't that big to begin with. Now when you consider that there is already a QB in the league that will probably do all of this in Peyton Manning, the chances of another QB pulling this feet of anytime soon are slim.
Fine...having a top 10 QB play for you for the first 10 years of his career is better than having a top 5 QB play for you for the last 3 years of his career. I thought the overriding point was clear, but I just cleared it up for you even more. And what a wussy way to approach player personnel acquisitions..."Oh, noes, that drafted rookie MIGHT not turn out as good as we hoped! Be better stay away from HIM, you betcha!". No successful GM, head coach, owner or franchise would EVER let thinking like that dictate their player moves. We shouldn't be encouraging ours to do so.





McNabb isn't the same Qb that he used to be. Nobody is arguing this point, however; there is still a lot left in his tank and he is worth a lot more than a 2nd and maybe a 3rd.

They way you acting, one would think that we gave up this years and next years 1st round picks. :doh: :stupid:
1) We have zero knowledge of exactly how well McNabb will be playing in 3 years, or even next year. Injuries take their toll...are we banking on ZERO injuries to an already often-inured McNabb playing behind a less-than-stellar (to put it midly) offensive line in Washington? Really? So to claim anything about the level of McNabb's play beyond this season is speculation at best.

2) Since when are 1st round picks the ONLY valuable picks in the draft? lol :ols:...ESPECIALLY one that is only 5 spots removed FROM the 1st round? There's little difference between a high 2nd rounder and a low 1st rounder. And I'm not "acting" like anything, I'm merely acknowledging the very real value those picks can have. We got Cooley in the 3rd round, we've found Jon Jansen in the early 2nd round. Those picks allow you to pick from a still-deep talent pool if your scouting is worth a damn.




I am actually a big believer that football games are won and lost in the trenches. If you don't have the big guys up front you are not going to win many games.

This move has actually allowed us to develope our O-line, while having a QB that will be able to not only help them in their learning process, but make up for their mistakes with his quick decision making, quick release and his courage to throw the ball down field. All while allowing his replacement learn and not get beat up by the learing and error prone young O-line.
Most will take an infusion of truly talented, young O-linemen (plural) over trying to developed the limited-talent O-linemen the Skins currently have and hoping the vet QB will help "coach 'em up" by throwing downfield more (talk about a lack of logic lol :ols: )...




Ummm....You realize that this point contradics your 1st point right? If Colt is the answer then why would you want us to go after Bradford, McCoy or anybody else. That would only slow the progress of helping out O-line that you were talking about in your 3rd point. (Parents, this is what happens when you send your kids to public shcool in California)
You should really take up some reading comprehension classes.

1) I never said ALL OF THESE REASONS were held by any one person lol...everyone else except you understood that. So there is ZERO contradiction to be had. Follow along: SOME Skins fans have misgivings about the trade for McNabb due to reason #1...some fans have those misgivings due to reason #2...some fans, reason #3...and so on and so on, etc, etc, yadda yadda.

2) If you had read my post fully (or truly understood even one syllable of it) you would have seen that I was not saying these were MY feelings on the trade...I was merely contradicting the idea that the "only reason" anyone would disagree with the trade for McNabb is because they still feel Campbell can get the job done. Ask your friends to explain this to you if you're still scratching your head in confusion. :thumbsup:

3) I went to school in Fairfax County, not California lol :cool:...



Anyways back to this point, I too believe that Colt is going to be a super star in this league some day and pray that he will be so for this team. That being said, the McNabb trade gives Colt a Pro Bowl QB to learn from as oppose to a QB that couldn't start for the Raiders (you know that California team that does so well every year). Colt will be able to learn how McNabb prepares for a game and how he handles sucess and failure. All while learning the Shananhan system, and if he is truely the answer then we will not have to use a draft pick on a QB next offseason.
IF Colt is still on the team...something that bringing in both McNabb AND Grossman starts to diminish. And God forbid if Shanahan brings in a rookie QB, or if Campbell actually DOES remain on the roster as a backup lol :ols:...the idea that Colt will remain on the Skins for years and years when he's currently the #3 QB is less logical than anything I mentioned.




Really? You know that we are talking about a 2nd and a 4th maybe a 3rd, right? While pro bowlers are found in these rounds, there are lot more 3 years and out of the league found here. This is a ludicrous point, and I feel dumber just for reading it.
There's no way in hell you could feel dumber than you did when you started typing this post lol...

And as far as history of players goes, our own team has an embarassing history of signing "name" players who have thrived on other teams, just to see them languish while serving their time here. Far, FAR more have done that than have gone on to continue their stellar play once signing with the Redskins. So if you're gonna go off of history or trends, you might want to consider the luck (or lack thereof) that we've had with these types of signings in the past ;)...



I am very confident that this FO has a long term plan. Now whether that plan will work out, I have no idea. However, I am very happy that there is at least a plan of attack for the future as oppose to we'll see what happens this year and make adjustments next year.
Great, I'm happy for you. But not every fan believes as you do. Again, disagreeing with you is not the equivalent of "lacking logic". What an arrogant stance to take, by the way. Future moves by the FO will help clear up the perceptions of this group of fans, but right now they have a valid opinion and point if they DO feel that trading picks for McNabb speaks more to the "win now" philosophy than it does to the "build a strong foundation for the future" philosophy.



Campbell would have become the best damn towel boy in history under the guidance of the Shanahan's, but we don't need a towel boy we need a QB and that is something Campbell will never be.
Again, wonderful that you have your own opinion on the matter. Please be a good fan and allow other fans to think differently. Those that DO think differently probably think trading McNabb was a luxury instead of a necessity. Whether or not they would have ended up being wrong about Campbell is one million percent irrelevant. You DO see that, right?




Well you came up with some pretty weak ones.
And I get the feeling your entire post was written from a stance of anger that anyone would disagree with the trade for McNabb lol :ols:...here's another tip, not just for you but for everyone: responding from a stance of anger usually allows for some glaring logic holes in that response, because you're letting emotion guide your words and you're not taking the time to understand what's being said. Again, I highly doubt ANYONE besides you thought that:

1) I was giving these examples as my own viewpoints,

2) I was giving these examples as all coming from one person, and

3) I was giving a thumbs up or thumbs down about the McNabb trade...almost everyone realized I was commenting on the idea that the ONLY reason people would have for not liking the trade was that they have a misguided confidence in Jason Campbell. That's extremely limited thinking. No wonder you bought into it :D...

Basically, taking the stance that it's only someone's incorrect believe in JC's abilities that would lead them to not like the Trade for McNabb would be like taking the stance that the only fans who believe this trade is good are the ones with the misguided belief that the Redskins are "one player away" from taking the division and making a Super Bowl run. Make no mistake, there ARE those who believe that to be the case, but there are plenty of other reasons fans give to like the trade for McNabb (and some even contradict each other lol ;) ). Just as there are numerous other reasons for not liking the McNabb trade.

By the way, why do you keep putting parts of your post in black text? lol...I've had to keep going back and re-edit my post in order to fix your screw ups. In case you were actually trying to put those parts in bold, that's not how you do it.

[Destino]

Let's presume the accuracy of your reality. It's Manning/Rivers/Rapist for the rest of their careers or Leaf/Smith/Shuler for three year versus McNabb for three.

This is incorrect. The reality here is: A deep offensive and defensive line, upgraded special teams, and a lot of your role players... maybe a few stars in the mix - Versus - a handful of aged players that can give you a few years of great play.

The draft and these trades aren't a 1 to 1 exchange. McNabb didn't cost the redskins 1 pick. He came at the price of two and likely two in the 1st three rounds. That very easily could amount to two starting offensive lineman. Something that would help the skins for 10 years. Let's say he did cost one pick though for the sake of argument. He's gone in 3 years where as a drafted player would be around for 7 more if he worked out. That over the years siphons talent from a roster. The players you do get don't last as long so you're constantly going to free agency looking for role players with no upside just to put bodies on the field. A team also misses out on luxury players, like kick returners and change of pace backs. The kind of players you gamble on because your needs aren't as pressing.

Personally have no problem with the McNabb trade. The problem is that it follows YEARS of lost draft picks and the team is paper thin.

[Califan007]

This is incorrect. The reality here is: A deep offensive and defensive line, upgraded special teams, and a lot of your role players... maybe a few stars in the mix - Versus - a handful of aged players that can give you a few years of great play.

The draft and these trades aren't a 1 to 1 exchange. McNabb didn't cost the redskins 1 pick. He came at the price of two and likely two in the 1st three rounds. That very easily could amount to two starting offensive lineman. Something that would help the skins for 10 years. Let's say he did cost one pick though for the sake of argument. He's gone in 3 years where as a drafted player would be around for 7 more if he worked out. That over the years siphons talent from a roster. The players you do get don't last as long so you're constantly going to free agency looking for role players with no upside just to put bodies on the field. A team also misses out on luxury players, like kick returners and change of pace backs. The kind of players you gamble on because your needs aren't as pressing.

Personally have no problem with the McNabb trade. The problem is that it follows YEARS of lost draft picks and the team is paper thin.
What an illogical stance for you to take.

[/TheMan CC47]

[DWil]

Jesus Christ, let it go. The past Skin teams have nothing to do with this one. Shanny got a pro bowl QB for a second round pick. This is not TecmoBowl where you can just trade for a stud QB. These thing don't come around very often.

If someone can do this for me you'll see something amazing.

Elway's Stats before Shanny/After Shanny
Brian Greise's stats with Shanny and whithout Shanny
Jake Plummer before Shanny/After Shanny

You compare those stats and you will absolutley realize how good of an offensive genius Shanny is. McNabb I promise you, even with the OL being what it is or the WRs being mediocre, MacNabb will have a top three season this year as appossed to his other years in Philly.

The Skins will be awesome this year.!!!


Based on your post, you're pretty much "hoping" that McNabb can be the new age Elway under Shanahan. You know what, I hope your absolutely right because with McNabb here it's ABSOLUTELY superbowl or bust within the next 3-4 years. If McNabb doesn't bring home the hardware, we would have given away our 2nd and possible 3rd next year which could have been essential tools to rebuilding our line. I don't know about anyone else here, but I am a firm believer in solidifying a franchise for years with competent drafting early on (Samuels, Orakpo, Cooley...guys like these you can groom and hang your hat on for the next decade).

[The Consigliere]

I'd rather have players who can play in the NFL than players who, for the most part, are OUT of the NFL in two years. The draft's hit rate is not high.

Put it this way.

Would you prefer McNabb or Peyton Manning?

Manning, right.

Would you prefer McNabb or Ryan Leaf?

McNabb, right.

Imagine, though, the shine of taking Leaf with our No. 4 pick, knowing NOTHING of his actual play in the NFL. The big arm. Fast release. Awesome accuracy. You'd fall in love with him. And you'd be incorrect.

Would I pick Bradford over McNabb if he developed into a franchise QB WE could trade after 11 years? Sure.

But, we're much more likely to get something we KNOW works at a good level in the NFL with McNabb than any rookie. It's just as likely Bradford is Akili Smith. It's equally likely had the Eagles taken Akili Smith, no one would think squadoosh of the Eagles all these years, on their fifth new coach, seeing Reid fired by 2002 while Cincy would be an exciting, winning franchise.

Drafting a young QB you hit on alters your future for a decade. Drafting one you miss on sets you back a decade.

I'm ok with McNabb who's had fewer arm injuries than Bradford. That's one example, but you can extend it to whether you'd prefer a guy like Maake who proved his ability in the NFL who has something to prove in coming back, or a sixth rounder unlikely to be around next year.


Truly successful teams have something in common, they are largely built from the draft. Few successful franchises if any avoid FA completely, but most pick and choose their spots rather than focus an inordinate amount of assets on free agency and trades as we have been doing for a decade. Why? Its not the eighties, its too expensive in cap monies to manage a team your way. The reason picks are so valuabe are many, but the basic reasons are that other than top 10-20 picks, the cheapest and most valuable players to your team are the players you draft. They are hungry, because they want that fat contract, and they are young, so less likely to get injured and lastly, save for top 10-15 picks, they are cheap for the value you provide.

The more effectively you use the draft the more effectively you can use free agency, give short shrift to the draft, and you will suffer for it. It's not a coincidence that the declines of the Niners and Redskins came when Cerrato was in a position of authority. He drafted poorly, in both places, and placed too heavy an interest on free agency, eventually it becomes too expensive.

Drafted players are hungrier, cheaper, and younger and less injury prone. Yes they miss, but so do satisfied vets getting fat paydays. For every LFB we've had how many Fat Stubby's and Deion types, just looking for a pay day and a vacation?

Who were the most successful teams this past decade?

Indy, New England, and Pittsburgh in the AFC.

Philly and whomever? in the NFC.

What do they all have in common? They are smart as hell when it comes to drafting, and they leave the signing of their fat, satisfied 28-30 year olds to teams like us, that get the downside of their careers, while they get the upside and the peaks. It's not a coincidence, its a fundamental approach that pays, and an approach we've continually moronically ignored, thinking, without any evidence to speak of, that our system is wiser, and more effective. It isn't, and it hasn't been, and yet we keep engaging in it.

I am hoping the stupid sale of a 2nd rounder for the end of McNabb's career wasn't a statement of philosophy but simply a statement on building a mentality with the franchise, and a change of culture.

I also would argue that botched Franchise QB's do not necessairly set a franchise back a decade. Bad Front Offices do that, not botched draft picks.

1998: San Diego missed on Leaf, in 2001 San Diego swindles Atlanta in a Vick for what turns out to be LT2, Drew Brees and Tim Dwight trade. The Leaf Debacle hurt San Diego, but they were already regaining their footing three years later, and were perenial super bowl contenders half a decade later.

1999:

Cleveland: Tim Couch Debacle. Was it Couch, or the stupidity of bringing in 2/3's of the FO who killed the Niner Dynasty that was responsible for a decade of failings in Cleveland? I'd go with the latter.

Cincy: Akili Smith: The same. Cincy's front office is a disaster. Despite that disaster, they recovered from it in time to draft a superstar QB in Carson Palmer less than five years later and were on their way to building a winner until a brutal hit on Palmer in the playoffs killed it.

Chicago: Cade McNown: this noodle armed joke was an obvious fraud, but a franchise well known for missing on QB's took him anyway. He stunk out loud, and they'd miss again in no time with Grossman, but the Bears were also a big time franchise in the Central/North by the early mid aughts.

2002:

Both Houston and Detroit missed on their franchise QB's. Detroit's been in a tailspin for the better part of a half-century, and Carr's failings were largely attributable to one of the 2-3 worst OL's in the league during his tenure, Houston was already well on its way to building a solid team by '07. Half a decade perhaps, but still not bad. Detroit, perhaps there's ammo there, but I'd argue the failings of those WR Drafts hurt them far more (missing completely on Rogers, and Mike Williams, partially missing on Roy Williams).

2005:

Niners missed badly w/Alex Smith and still haven't given up entirely on him. Five years later, and they are 2 years into a renaissance w/Singleterry at the helm, I dont think it's set them back a decade, but it is fair to say that QB issues are one of only two concerns that is holding back the franchise (would be very interesting to see if Carr could ressurect his career there).

2007:

Leinart: Appears to be a bust, and it didnt set Arizona back at all (I still think he's got a shot at being a solid QB, but im one of the only ones who seems to think so).

It's also important to note, that it's a QB driven league today, and virtually all of the elite QB's or blue chippers recently drafted who show large signs of being good (Ryan, Sanchez, Flacco) when healthy compared to ones who dont (Jamarcus) were landed in blue chip territory:

AFC East:

Brady: Late round (fifth) gem

Sanchez: Blue Chip First

Henne: Early 2nd round

AFC North:

Ben Roth: Blue Chip First

Carson Palmer: Blue Chip First

Joe Flacco: Blue Chip First

AFC South:

Manning: Blue Chip First

Schaub: Late Third

AFC West:

Rivers: Blue Chip 1st

NFC East:

Romo: Undrafted Free Agent

McNabb: Blue CHip First

Eli: Blue Chip First

Kolb: High Second Rounder

NFC North:

Cutler: Blue Chip First

Favre: Second

Rogers: First Rounder (rated top 5 talent)

Stafford: Blue Chip First

NFC South:

Ryan: blue Chip First

Brees: 2nd rounder (top pick)

NFC West:

Warner (Retired): Undrafted


The vast majority of these guys are blue chip firsts, or late firsts or seconds. The vast majority of teams that make the playoffs not coincidentally have one of these guys. The vast majority of teams that have one of these guys will not trade them.

We should want to emulate how they were acquired in the first place, rather than strap ourselves to the glorious, or rather inglorious last few years of their career.

The rules that keep getting rewritten in the league place a primacy on landing an elite QB and utilizing them to take advantage of said rules. If you draft them, you get their hungry for their second contract years and the bulk of their prime if not all of it, if you don't, you get neither, you get the downside, which we just traded for.

In this case, I probably would have simply traded down for Clausen, or kept Campbell for a year, and waited on next years crop, Bradford would have cost too much to acquire, and there was little point in acquiring McNabb, unless you really prefer 8-8 seasons, to 4-12 one's w/a future pay out (you hope) tied in.