Is anyone else concerned - about Shanahan - and McNabb? (MET)

[Taylorfan2179]

I've been talking to a lot of skins fans and they swear that Shanahan is the best thing to happen to us since Gibbs first stint in DC. People are excited we are "finally" going 3-4, and that shanahan will make our o line great.
Personally I believe this team is 5-11, 7-9 at best.
The more I think about it the less I trust Shanahan. Think about it, he won 2 super bowls in denver, and they still fired him. Say that aloud. He won 2 super bowls in Denver, and they still fired him. From friends of mine who are Broncos fans, they liken him to a German Shepherd. His biological clock just went off, and he went nuts. The players and the writers are all saying how its different around the park, well I'm sure it was the same and they were saying the same when Zorn came around.
Unless Shanahan can turn back time on our Oline, and in Heyers case, turn him into John Jansen of 8 years ago, its still about as effective paper mache. We are praying to God as a fan base (IMO the smart ones) that we get Okung, who isn't even a freak stud LT like we've seen in the past few years drafts (DC luck). Then what, nothing, I believe we still have our 4th round, but we have 1 pick in the first 3 rounds, essentially the top 100 players out of college. Yea bruce may find a gem blah blah, lets be real, the best come out in the first 3. We are an old team, we need youth.
I can't believe I'm saying this but Philly has the right idea, and they scout pretty well.
McNabb is an awesome QB, don't get me wrong, but he is fragile and on the very wrong side of 30. People talk about Big Al not finishing seasons, how often has Donavan done it? you think our line is close to the Eagles line? not a chance. I'm not saying JC was the answer, but I am saying the kid could take a whallop, and there was is no surrender in him...or any other emotion for that matter...but still, no surrender. So we trade him away and what do we have? Rex Grossman? Scary.
Our Defense has been our only saving grace in years past. We switch to the 3-4 because Shanny likes it, yea, he did great things with the D in Denver (should I say cleveland). Dont get me wrong, this new D coordinator is sharp, and blatche was a wuss when it came to being aggresive, from my understanding we don't have the personel for a 3-4. If the goal is to win now, which is blatantly obvious thats shanny's intent, then why totally change the one thing right? Fletch is one of the best middle linebackers in the NFL, in a 4-3 scheme. Haynesworth, whether you want to admit it or not, is a monster, most amazing example is that denver game, there is a snap in a beleive the third quarter where he literally just stands up, and the 2 guards and center (ALL 3) surround him, Sack. Dude demands attention, and there are talks of trading him? (I don't believe shanny, or the FO, they clearly have gotten this behind closed doors things down) he has always been 4-3, say we trade him, who takes over? Kemotue? Montgomery? Golston? oh be still my beating heart, I may as well take my 200 lb self out there. you think it was a coincidence carter had 11 sacks last year? rak had 11? it was haynesworths presence.

Sorry for all the haterade, but seriously, it freaks me out all the koolaid I see people chugging. call me a debbie downer, but like I said 7-9 at best and then several miserable years after. I really really hope I'm wrong, as my weeks live and die with the skins, i'm just tired of the misery.

enough procrastinating on studying. any thoughts? I havent started a thread in a while, and I have forgotten what its like to have someone tell me what a waste of life I am for having such pathetic thoughts, so please all you hardcore typers, rip it up.


Hailhttp://extremeskins.com/images/icon6.gif

[Painkiller]

Here's a question to ask yourself. If Jerry Jones had fired Wade Philips, and then hired Mike Shanahan to coach the Cowboys.

How would you feel about him then? Would you be afraid of him coaching the Pukes? or would you be looking at things the same way as you posted above. A coach that won two Super Bowls, and was fired.

[Atlass]

Mike Shanahan is a great coach, a HOF coach. The one thing you'll never have to worry about is the offense. Shanny's big problem in Denver was his defensive coordinators. There was always so much drama there. After Greg Robinson was fired it just seemed to be a rotating door.

I think GM Allen will really help out here and I see the Skins taking the NFC East by storm. I think they will score more points than the cowboys this year.

You guys are going to love seeing those "dirty, rotten, ****ing" linemen cut block on the field and watching a trio of RBs burst into the open field untouched. It's going to be a great year.

[stevemcqueen1]

Haha. The old 2 AM time killer. Definitely been there.

You make some valid points of course. We should be skeptical about everything that's happening because we've basically seen all of this before--recently--and it hasn't worked.

But getting into specifics, the defensive scheme change is a good one and it makes sense to do right now while we ARE still bad. We're installing a modern defense and building it around our 23 year old stud rush linebacker. It needed to happen. If our +30 players get lost in the switch, who really cares? We weren't winning with them (or even forcing turnovers), and they won't be around much longer anyhow.

This is a process. We'll have to be patient because little has happened so far even though it seems like a lot through the distorted lens of the offseason.

[ddub52]

Sometimes I feel the same way. But in a sense Im just glad to see some real experience running this team. I think that our defense will be effective and is based around the strength of the players we have. From what Ive read, we arent committed to switching completely to the 3-4. It is most likely going to be a hybrid version of that. I also think that haynesworth wont go anywhere. The things that the media fabricates may make it seem that way, but I think he will be here this season.

Also, I think Donovan will make our Oline look a little better than it is. Jason got sacked and beat up a lot of the time because of holding on to the ball too long and a lack of ability to make quick decisions in the weak system we had. Once Sherm started calling the plays and Jason got the ball out quicker, he got sacked less. I think the same will happen for McNabb. At least I hope

[ddub52]

Also, Brett Favre went to 2 SBs with Green Bay and they still cut him. Sometimes its good for both the organization and the coach (or player) to get a fresh start

[iMeast]

After all of these years of mediocrity of course I am concerned. However the fact of the matter is Mike Shanahan is the brightest light we have seen in DC in years. Yes, Gibbs 2.0 had its moments, but lets face facts he had been out of the game too long and was held down by a weak front office, namely Vinny Cerrato. Bringing in Bruce Allen as the GM was brilliant on Daniel Snyder's part. It stirred feelings of glory past due to his father's legacy. The combination of these two touted men is the best the Redskins have had in nearly 20 years. Does that mean the Redskins are going to go to the Super Bowl or playoffs? Probably not. There are far too many holes on the team due to years of improper management, but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

HTTR

[isaacis881]

The answer all your concerns in two words; Kyle Shanahan.

[NoCalMike]

I think 2010 is going to prove one of two things.

A)We have a lot more talent on this team then we thought we did under the Zorn/Blache campaign, and Zorn was truly THAT clueless about how to run/motivate/gameplan etc etc

Or

B)Shanahan knows it is impossible to improve as a team drastically in one offseason(barring a bunch of unforeseen intangibles) and his first step to turn this franchise around is to change the way we evaluate and bring in talent(not necessarily by not bringing in free agents, but by the type of free agents we do sign)

Whichever of the above is true, I am not sure. Hell, it might be a little bit of both.

[Chris0894]

Jason got sacked and beat up a lot of the time because of holding on to the ball too long and a lack of ability to make quick decisions in the weak system we had. Once Sherm started calling the plays and Jason got the ball out quicker, he got sacked less. I think the same will happen for McNabb. At least I hope
:rolleyes: I remember reading something stats wise on our OL that was posted here saying something about on average JC only had like 2.7 seconds to get rid of the ball due to our horrendous OL. So how did JC have time to hold the ball to long lol

[MarkRascadizzle]

Hey OP, didn't you hear? If you're not going to buy into the system, you can GIT OUT!

[MarkRascadizzle]

In all seriousness though, we now have a team with experience and leadership. We've got an accomplished QB along with capable backups, we're stacked at running back, have the best young offensive mind as offensive coordinator, a defense that's only getting better with an experienced coordinator, young receivers that have shown talent, a pro-bowl tight end, and oh yeah, our head coach has won 2 superbowls and is known for getting the best out of players. How can you not be at least a tad optimistic?

If the O-line is as good as Kyle Shanahan wants to project, we've got a chance of being a real powerhouse this year, if not into the future.

[MrJL]

I don't believe the Skins can acquire enough talent to upgrade their record significantly. THe best part about this year will be getting people familiar with a system and hopefully having a high draft pick next year.

[theTruthTeller]

The Skins have a much harder schedule than last year and are making changes for the future. No one should be surprised if the WL record doesn't improve much. As someone pointed out earlier, last year's four wins included two wins when the opponent's starting QB was knocked out and two wins against really bad teams.

Shanahan's a good coach. He's not a magician. The Skins have a lot of mediocre talent. At almost every position, the starter would rank 3rd or 4th in the NFLE. Shanny won't be able to turn over the roster in just one year.

[whiskey44]

The answer all your concerns in two words; Kyle Shanahan.



This makes me happy. I like this. I will support this. Let's hear it for this.
:point2sky

[whiskey44]

Thnks for unbanning me, too mods!. You guys rock!. I was a stinker and I have seen the error of my ways!

[MustangSteve]

I think 2010 is going to prove one of two things.

A)We have a lot more talent on this team then we thought we did under the Zorn/Blache campaign, and Zorn was truly THAT clueless about how to run/motivate/gameplan etc etc

Or

B)Shanahan knows it is impossible to improve as a team drastically in one offseason(barring a bunch of unforeseen intangibles) and his first step to turn this franchise around is to change the way we evaluate and bring in talent(not necessarily by not bringing in free agents, but by the type of free agents we do sign)

Whichever of the above is true, I am not sure. Hell, it might be a little bit of both.
I'm going with A, reason is we had the worst coach, one of the worst qb's and o-line in the league last season, and we still played toe to toe with the best teams in the nfl. Most games were a 3 point difference, and an elite qb is worth every bit of 3 points a game, so is a coach and a better o-line. I'm calling it now, the Redskins "will" be the 2010 surprise team of the league this year, and we "will" make the playoffs!

[michiskin]

A. Personally I believe this team is 5-11, 7-9 at best.

B. The more I think about it the less I trust Shanahan. Think about it, he won 2 super bowls in denver, and they still fired him. Say that aloud. He won 2 super bowls in Denver, and they still fired him.

C. We are praying to God as a fan base (IMO the smart ones) that we get Okung, who isn't even a freak stud LT like we've seen in the past few years drafts (DC luck).

D. We are an old team, we need youth.

E. McNabb is an awesome QB, don't get me wrong, but he is fragile and on the very wrong side of 30. People talk about Big Al not finishing seasons, how often has Donavan done it?

F. Our Defense has been our only saving grace in years past. We switch to the 3-4 because Shanny likes it...

G. Haynesworth, whether you want to admit it or not, is a monster, most amazing example is that denver game, there is a snap in a beleive the third quarter where he literally just stands up, and the 2 guards and center (ALL 3) surround him, Sack. Dude demands attention, and there are talks of trading him? (I don't believe shanny, or the FO, they clearly have gotten this behind closed doors things down) he has always been 4-3, say we trade him, who takes over? Kemotue? Montgomery? Golston? oh be still my beating heart, I may as well take my 200 lb self out there. you think it was a coincidence carter had 11 sacks last year? rak had 11? it was haynesworths presence.

H. I havent started a thread in a while, and I have forgotten what its like to have someone tell me what a waste of life I am for having such pathetic thoughts, so please all you hardcore typers, rip it up.


Hailhttp://extremeskins.com/images/icon6.gif

A. Either record is an improvement over 4-12. Although I believe you are lowballing it. I figure 8-8 (which we really should have been last year, despite all the shenanigans going on) is pretty likely, and if things go well, 10 or 11 wins isn't out of the realm of possiblity.

B. He won two Super Bowls in Denver. Say that out loud. He was fired because after 15 years, sometimes teams and coaches need a change of scenery. Things get stale. You can't fire all the players, so you fire the coach. The fact that he lasted a decade and a half with the same team speaks volumes in itself.

C. How do you know that Okung (or whoever we get if we draft a LT) isn't a stud? By the way, I'm with you that we need to draft offensive line. I'm all for trading down and drafting a couple Big Uglies if we get the right offer.

D. Listen, Shanahan/Allen traded the second rounder for McNabb. He's the first legit QB we've had since Rypien's glory years, and well worth the price tag. The third rounder was already gone (and we've got a young player on the roster as a result). They switched fifth-rounders for a 25-year-old former first rounder. I'm sure that in future years, our draft picks will not be used so cavalierly.

E. McNabb finished the most recent season, although not strongly. Good thing he gets to break that Cowboys losing streak right off the bat.

F. This point I agree with. But if they're committed to switching to a 3-4, they might as well just get it over with now.

G. Challenging coaches has been a disturbing trend in D.C. in the last decade. If trading Big Al is what's needed to set the tone that there's a new sherriff in town that will not tolerate shenanigans, then so be it. But only if he can be traded for appropriate value.

H. You asked, so I took my best 6 A.M. shot at it. :D

[Taylorfan2179]

Here's a question to ask yourself. If Jerry Jones had fired Wade Philips, and then hired Mike Shanahan to coach the Cowboys.

How would you feel about him then? Would you be afraid of him coaching the Pukes? or would you be looking at things the same way as you posted above. A coach that won two Super Bowls, and was fired.

Valid point. I'd be freaked out, but after a while to calm myself down I'd remind myself that the team he won 2 super bowls with fired him. :ols:

[MustangSteve]

If the O-line is as good as Kyle Shanahan wants to project, we've got a chance of being a real powerhouse this year, if not into the future.I truly believe the Redskins will be that powerhouse we once were. Bringing in the competition has already caused players to work like a real team and champion should. The results will definitely show on the field, and no team can even game plan for our new offense or defense because only our coaches know what we're coming after them with. This is going to be a very fun year folks. The "Beast of the East" is back!

[Taylorfan2179]

Haha. The old 2 AM time killer. Definitely been there.

You make some valid points of course. We should be skeptical about everything that's happening because we've basically seen all of this before--recently--and it hasn't worked.

But getting into specifics, the defensive scheme change is a good one and it makes sense to do right now while we ARE still bad. We're installing a modern defense and building it around our 23 year old stud rush linebacker. It needed to happen. If our +30 players get lost in the switch, who really cares? We weren't winning with them (or even forcing turnovers), and they won't be around much longer anyhow.

This is a process. We'll have to be patient because little has happened so far even though it seems like a lot through the distorted lens of the offseason.

Very true, but if we are building around them and not worrying about the players that get lost, why aren't we getting draft picks for those players?
and yea this site is great for procrastination.

[FrFan]

Allahan has a plan, and they are going step by step in the right direction. I think they will try to get the missing picks back, and if they can be as successful as the Adam Carriker trade that's going to be really great :point2sky. I hope that after a year off and with his son by his side he will be even better than he was in Denver.

[Taylorfan2179]

Sometimes I feel the same way. But in a sense Im just glad to see some real experience running this team. I think that our defense will be effective and is based around the strength of the players we have. From what Ive read, we arent committed to switching completely to the 3-4. It is most likely going to be a hybrid version of that. I also think that haynesworth wont go anywhere. The things that the media fabricates may make it seem that way, but I think he will be here this season.

Also, I think Donovan will make our Oline look a little better than it is. Jason got sacked and beat up a lot of the time because of holding on to the ball too long and a lack of ability to make quick decisions in the weak system we had. Once Sherm started calling the plays and Jason got the ball out quicker, he got sacked less. I think the same will happen for McNabb. At least I hope I'd be cool with a hybrid, I like the 3-4, I just don't see us having that personnel. I really hope the media is the only thing blowing the haynesworth scenario out of proportion.
I think Jason didn't have any time to throw, and was almost shell shocked. But I hope your right

[Taylorfan2179]

Also, Brett Favre went to 2 SBs with Green Bay and they still cut him. Sometimes its good for both the organization and the coach (or player) to get a fresh start
good point

[Taylorfan2179]

The answer all your concerns in two words; Kyle Shanahan.
hahaha I hope so. He had Andre Johnson at WR, Im pretty certain my 7 year old niece could be an awesome qb with that monster at WR

[Taylorfan2179]

A. Either record is an improvement over 4-12. Although I believe you are lowballing it. I figure 8-8 (which we really should have been last year, despite all the shenanigans going on) is pretty likely, and if things go well, 10 or 11 wins isn't out of the realm of possiblity.

B. He won two Super Bowls in Denver. Say that out loud. He was fired because after 15 years, sometimes teams and coaches need a change of scenery. Things get stale. You can't fire all the players, so you fire the coach. The fact that he lasted a decade and a half with the same team speaks volumes in itself.

C. How do you know that Okung (or whoever we get if we draft a LT) isn't a stud? By the way, I'm with you that we need to draft offensive line. I'm all for trading down and drafting a couple Big Uglies if we get the right offer.

D. Listen, Shanahan/Allen traded the second rounder for McNabb. He's the first legit QB we've had since Rypien's glory years, and well worth the price tag. The third rounder was already gone (and we've got a young player on the roster as a result). They switched fifth-rounders for a 25-year-old former first rounder. I'm sure that in future years, our draft picks will not be used so cavalierly.

E. McNabb finished the most recent season, although not strongly. Good thing he gets to break that Cowboys losing streak right off the bat.

F. This point I agree with. But if they're committed to switching to a 3-4, they might as well just get it over with now.

G. Challenging coaches has been a disturbing trend in D.C. in the last decade. If trading Big Al is what's needed to set the tone that there's a new sherriff in town that will not tolerate shenanigans, then so be it. But only if he can be traded for appropriate value.

H. You asked, so I took my best 6 A.M. shot at it. :D

A. I did forget about the close games, a good coach would find ways to win those.

B. Good call.

C. Mel Kipers hair tells me so.

D. I hardly remember rypein, honestly my first skins memories are the season after the super bowl. wish I was born a year earlier. But from what Ive seen and know, I'd say hes the best we've had since theisman. I just didnt like us getting rid of draft picks. I still fear he will die. Heyer is awful, and who is the new RG? Rinehart? I hope not.

E. I really hope so

F. I just wish we had more draft picks to fit in this, players used to being in 3-4

G. Must Be worth it. Im saying 1st round. He's a monster. What happened to that rumor about the lions trading us #2 for big al as he is now cheaper then what Suh would be at 2? I'll take Suh.

H. Best shot? hell you organized my post! thanks!

[4skins23]

I've been talking to a lot of skins fans and they swear that Shanahan is the best thing to happen to us since Gibbs first stint in DC. People are excited we are "finally" going 3-4, and that shanahan will make our o line great.
Personally I believe this team is 5-11, 7-9 at best.
The more I think about it the less I trust Shanahan. Think about it, he won 2 super bowls in denver, and they still fired him. Say that aloud. He won 2 super bowls in Denver, and they still fired him. From friends of mine who are Broncos fans, they liken him to a German Shepherd. His biological clock just went off, and he went nuts. The players and the writers are all saying how its different around the park, well I'm sure it was the same and they were saying the same when Zorn came around.
Unless Shanahan can turn back time on our Oline, and in Heyers case, turn him into John Jansen of 8 years ago, its still about as effective paper mache. We are praying to God as a fan base (IMO the smart ones) that we get Okung, who isn't even a freak stud LT like we've seen in the past few years drafts (DC luck). Then what, nothing, I believe we still have our 4th round, but we have 1 pick in the first 3 rounds, essentially the top 100 players out of college. Yea bruce may find a gem blah blah, lets be real, the best come out in the first 3. We are an old team, we need youth.
I can't believe I'm saying this but Philly has the right idea, and they scout pretty well.
McNabb is an awesome QB, don't get me wrong, but he is fragile and on the very wrong side of 30. People talk about Big Al not finishing seasons, how often has Donavan done it? you think our line is close to the Eagles line? not a chance. I'm not saying JC was the answer, but I am saying the kid could take a whallop, and there was is no surrender in him...or any other emotion for that matter...but still, no surrender. So we trade him away and what do we have? Rex Grossman? Scary.
Our Defense has been our only saving grace in years past. We switch to the 3-4 because Shanny likes it, yea, he did great things with the D in Denver (should I say cleveland). Dont get me wrong, this new D coordinator is sharp, and blatche was a wuss when it came to being aggresive, from my understanding we don't have the personel for a 3-4. If the goal is to win now, which is blatantly obvious thats shanny's intent, then why totally change the one thing right? Fletch is one of the best middle linebackers in the NFL, in a 4-3 scheme. Haynesworth, whether you want to admit it or not, is a monster, most amazing example is that denver game, there is a snap in a beleive the third quarter where he literally just stands up, and the 2 guards and center (ALL 3) surround him, Sack. Dude demands attention, and there are talks of trading him? (I don't believe shanny, or the FO, they clearly have gotten this behind closed doors things down) he has always been 4-3, say we trade him, who takes over? Kemotue? Montgomery? Golston? oh be still my beating heart, I may as well take my 200 lb self out there. you think it was a coincidence carter had 11 sacks last year? rak had 11? it was haynesworths presence.

Sorry for all the haterade, but seriously, it freaks me out all the koolaid I see people chugging. call me a debbie downer, but like I said 7-9 at best and then several miserable years after. I really really hope I'm wrong, as my weeks live and die with the skins, i'm just tired of the misery.

enough procrastinating on studying. any thoughts? I havent started a thread in a while, and I have forgotten what its like to have someone tell me what a waste of life I am for having such pathetic thoughts, so please all you hardcore typers, rip it up.


Hailhttp://extremeskins.com/images/icon6.gif


My thought is almost the same, only 7-9 seems off. More like 6-10 tops. oh, by the way, anything Shanny says, just think the opposite and you will be fine. You have been informed he is the second coming? He will fix EVERYTHING just like Obama and his Obama-care! :ols:

[Skinsfan1311]

I'm always concerned, and will be "cautiously optimistic" this time around.

[SittingBull]

Even if we had all our picks, history tells us that we wouldn't be able to replace who we need to on the offensive line with immediate starters in one draft/offseason. I don't see the problem with improving other positions on the team while still looking for those starters. Not saying we'll be going 16-0 or anything. 9-7 isn't too unrealistic though. Shanahan and Mcnabb should be worth 5 wins at least. We lost all 6 in the division for christ sakes, if we just improve to .500 in the division we'd improve to 7-9 from last year.

[rick1796]

I get it man. You're scared. You look at the down side of everything so that you don't have to be disappointed if the worst happens. You abandon optimism for the security blanket of skepticism, a lot of folks around here do that. Here's the thing. STOP RAINING ON MY STINKIN PARADE!!

:P

[Potato Sack]

I can see us at .500. Shanahan is a great coach. But we have to get the OL together if we want to be any better than 8-8. I think we have a pretty decent core of RBs. It's hard to make a prediction right now. but I like Shanahan.

[Taylor 36]

I think it comes down to expectations. If you expect to be in the Super Bowl this year, than you are going to be disappointed. If you realistically look at the up coming season and want to just see improvement and the team moving TOWARD greatness (not there yet), you should probably end up pretty satisfied.

[Mr.Skinbo]

OP = Debbie Downer

[4skins23]

My big concern in the division as well. Depending on who Philly gets as the starting QB, I think the 'Skins will sweep them, Giants maybe splitting the series and Dallas MAYBE a split series. First game of the season against Dallas is hard with a new coach. That will be a loss. Hopefully, what I would LOVE to see, is to go into Dallas and not only Whip Dallas in their house but spike the ball on their star starting a new rivalry.

[Probos]

So, 5-11 to 7-9 at best. Yeah, I think that's about right.

Really think about it,....think about how bad this team was last year. They finished 4-12 and they were lucky to get the 4 wins they got. Just a bad, bad team with a QB coach for a head coach. Poorly constructed, no chemistry, with a few choice over paid, lazy "super star" players.

So many people are expecting Shanahan/Allen to work miracles, it's puzzling to me. This team was so poorly managed for a decade, draft picks traded, huge contracts, bad draft decisions, etc, etc. With the exception of Gibbs v2.0 (he at least provided some degree of continuity for a period of 4 years), just a putrid, embarrassing way to run a storied NFL franchise. So, here we are -- 2010, coming off the worst season since 1993 record-wise. Shanahan's the head coach,...new GM, new CBA looming,...........seriously people. You're expecting them to take the plate of horse **** sitting at Redskins park when they walked in and over a period of 7 months turn it into a prime aged Fillet Mignon? Ain't gonna happen.

The situation is what it is,....even if things went the best they possibly could with the draft and the off season, considering the situation, I think the Skins get 8 wins at best. Also, did you see the schedule for this coming season? Brutal - 8th toughest sched in the league.

We need to be realistic. Hopefully Shanahan will stay the full 5 years. If he does I see the team getting much, much better in 2-3 years and possibly making a legit run.

[Mr. Sinister]

OP c'mon dude, give it a season. He knows what he's doing, and we have to believe in him until he proves to us that he can't get it done.

[Mark The Homer]

...

Nice thread, but next time, please adhere to Rule 8.

8. Please use descriptive topic titles for your thread.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

The guy still has a track record of winning and doing so consistantly. No one can deny that he can build an O line and run the ball. He was let go b/c they wanted a change, not necessarily b/c Shanny was over the hill and could'nt get it done. That's fine though. Give Shanny a reason to prove his doubters wrong and I bet he'll rise to the challenge. I don't think this guy is going to sit fat and happy in DC. We shall see.

[Geoff_K]

Paragraphs my friend. I could not get through it all.

As I recall he was fired because he refused to fire an assistant coach. Seems I read something to that effect somewhere.

[dahibachi]

I don't really agree with the 5-11 or 7-9 thing but i still have some concerns... I believe that having a great HC and a great QB in place will make us good enough to win nine games. Shanahan is a no non-sense coach who preaches discipline and hard work. McNabb is a QB who elevates the play of those around him. Those are two major things the Skins lacked last season with Zorn and Campbell. With that said, we will beat those teams we are supposed to beat and have a chance against any team in the NFL... look at our schedule... with McNabb and Shanahan

Expect us to be much MUCH better at home... probably 5-3 or 6-2 at home... and that's good because we have our tougher games at home---- Houston, Indianapolis, Green Bay, Minnesota, and of course our division games vs Dallas, NY, and Philly. Tampa Bay is the only home match up we have against an opponent we should easily best this year. I feel more confident with Shanahan and McNabb we can win 5 or 6 of those tough ones at home.

With a tougher home schedule, we seem to get it easier on the road this year (cept for the fact we play back-to-back road games three times). We get Jacksonville, St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Tennessee and our three division games. If we beat those teams we are SUPPOSED to beat (Detroit and St. Louis) and take at least one of the beatable road games (Chicago, Jacksonville, or Tennessee) and one of our division games on the road, i can EASILY see us going 9-7.

People keep saying "but we were 4-12 last season."

I'm not making any excuses for last season. We WERE as bad as our record says we were... maybe worse. 4-12 teams have turned it around quick in the past when they did all the right things. We are FINALLY doing all the right things--- owner backing off, coach allowed to get his own coaching staff, and taking time to get right players for team.

Look at a couple of things we've done this offseason:
*Avoid signing over priced players at positions we don't need.
*McNabb for a 2nd round pick
*Carriker by swapping 5th rounders with Rams

Some of you have been saying "the more things change the more they stay the same" or "This seems like a Snyder/ Cerrato move." and I whole heartedly disagree. Some of you made a good point about the McNabb trade. If it was Cerrato, EVERY team in the NFL would have known that the Skins wanted him and we would have given up way too much and then signed him immediately to a 7 year 80 million dollar deal with 25 million guaranteed or something ridiculous like that. We gave up fair value for a player of his calibur and we are taking our time with a contract extention.

With all of this, I really do feel things are different... 5-11 and 7-9 just seem too low for a team led by Shanahan and McNabb. 5-11 are teams like Oakland, Buffalo, and Detroit. We will be AT LEAST 9-7. I truly believe that this time.

[jsharrin55]

The answer all your concerns in two words; Kyle Shanahan.

This.

When Gibbs came back as the offensive guru, he found himself in an NFL that had changed and bought in Al Saunders to from a awkward at best offense.

Mike is less removed from the game and would probably do fine in his own right, but he also brought with him an OC that was part of last years best passing attack.

With all the changes it's tough to say just how good the Skins are at this point...maybe 5-11 is still possible. I think we are closer to a 8, 9 win team and building something for the future.

[Tarpon75]

The Skins were in a lot of tight games they could have easily won last year.Many of the losses weren't so much due to inferior talent but due to poor coaching decisions(swinging gate),mental mistakes,poor conditioning,and a general lack of leadership.There was a revolving door along the o-line. Straighten most of these issues out and the team could compete very soon.Hopefully the new staff will be able to get this team moving in the right direction.

[flexxskins]

OP,

you definitely have valid concerns, like our OL, McNabb's durability and the defensive scheme change.

However, I think that the positives may out weigh the negatives and give us all reason for a little optimism. Now I didn't say delusions of grandeur...:) I said a little optimism.

First of all we now have 3 very experienced coaches. We have a Hall Of Fame, former head coach as our head coach. We have another former head coach/defensive coordinator as our DC. And we have the offensive coodinator who coached the team that led the league in passing last season as our OC.

Another positive is that players have been brought in and have created competition at positions that really needed competition. In other words...more players are working harder this season already than they probably ever have since becoming a Redskin.

And IMO the biggest positive change was the firing of Vinny Cerrato and the hiring of Bruce Allen.

The bottomline is that we just have to have faith right now that the new staff that has been assembled does have a plan for the concerns that you brought up.

[Skinz#28Rules]

Kyle Shanahan to me is the most exciting thing right now going on for the skins. I know that Bruce and Shanny have a plan. Fixing the front office has been the main priority and we're starting to function like a normal team. You can't fix 10 years of "stupid management" in one year. This is at least a 2 to 3 year turnaround.

I'm really hoping that Kyle takes the reigns after a few years. I'll be really dissapointed if we let him go to another team to become HC. Right now is an exciting time to be a skins fan. Who else wishes the season started tomorrow?

[John Lydon]

I think one thing everyone is forgetting is that the players have something to believe in. I can't possibly overstate how vital that is to any team sport. Everyone is concerned about talent but let's look at it realisticaly, these guys are all in the NFL. That means they have talent.
I expect to see a totally different team come August. These players are re-energized by the presence of Shanahan and I think that they are out to prove that they are much better than last year.
As far as the draft goes, how can you say Okung isn't a premiere tackle when he dominated college D-lineman on every snap? The man hasn't even had one snap to prove himself in the NFL and you've written him off? Sounds like sour grapes to me.

[NewCliche21]

A lot of good points here, but this is my philosophy in one sentence:

Shanahan and Allen have my faith until they lose it due to no improvement in our team's performance.

[dadirtbags]

to the original poster...I think time will tell...but I believe...Danny finallly got it right...I for one over the years wished we could hire someone like Shanny (Ive personally felt Shanny was one of the better coaches in the league when in Denver)...also ...from what I have read...I get the feeling this was part of the reason for his firing...




"It's not clear how it contributed to his firing, but the Rocky Mountain News reported on Tuesday night that Bowlen asked Shanahan to make another change at defensive coordinator -- this time cutting loose Bob Slowik. Shanahan reportedly refused. He had said after Sunday's loss that he would not fire another defensive coordinator.

This year, as the defense floundered, it became obvious it wasn't just a coaching problem. It was an issue of talent on the field, and in Denver, the buck stopped with Shanahan."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3800768



it ought to be exciting IMO!!!! we all know Shanny knows how to run an offense...but from the sounds of it...he took this past year to learn about defenses...it sounds like he wants to be dominant on both sides of the ball...and it sounds like now he has a solid plan for our D

[Oldfan]

The answer all your concerns in two words; Kyle Shanahan.


This.

When Gibbs came back as the offensive guru, he found himself in an NFL that had changed and bought in Al Saunders to from a awkward at best offense.

Mike is less removed from the game and would probably do fine in his own right, but he also brought with him an OC that was part of last years best passing attack.

With all the changes it's tough to say just how good the Skins are at this point...maybe 5-11 is still possible. I think we are closer to a 8, 9 win team and building something for the future.

We don't know enough about Kyle to get excited. He ran Kubiak's scheme in Texas not his own. We also know that Matt Schaub's skillset is completely different than McNabb's. That tells us that Kyle's Texas experience isn't going to apply hand-in-glove in his father's offense.

[Oldfan]

it ought to be exciting IMO!!!! we all know Shanny knows how to run an offense...but from the sounds of it...he took this past year to learn about defenses...it sounds like he wants to be dominant on both sides of the ball...and it sounds like now he has a solid plan for our D

He had full control in Denver for 14 years -- and he decided this past year to learn about defenses?

[Mahons21]

A lot of good points here, but this is my philosophy in one sentence:

Shanahan and Allen have my faith until they lose it due to no improvement in our team's performance.

-Well how long are you going to give them until you believe you can evaluate whether or not there has been improvement in the teams performance? I personally believe we'll see major improvements on the offensive side of the ball week 1, but the defense may take longer.

However if there aren't improvements week 1 I'm not going to worry, I'd give them until about week 8, I would like to see us ending the season on a high note for once. Give us something to build on for the next year.

[NewCliche21]

Kyle Shanahan to me is the most exciting thing right now going on for the skins. I know that Bruce and Shanny have a plan. Fixing the front office has been the main priority and we're starting to function like a normal team. You can't fix 10 years of "stupid management" in one year. This is at least a 2 to 3 year turnaround.

I'm really hoping that Kyle takes the reigns after a few years. I'll be really dissapointed if we let him go to another team to become HC. Right now is an exciting time to be a skins fan. Who else wishes the season started tomorrow?

+1 in its entirety!

[Oldfan]

Shanahan and Allen have my faith until they lose it due to no improvement in our team's performance.

Based on their extensive resumes, I think it's safe to say that, unless they change their stripes, Allen and Shanahan will do better than the other decision makers we've had here in the past 20 years; but they will fall well short of producing an elite franchise, one capable of challenging for championships over the next decade.

[NewCliche21]

Based on their extensive resumes, I think it's safe to say that unless they change their stripes, Allen and Shanahan will do better than the other decision makers we've had here in the past 20 years; but they will fall well short of producing an elite franchise.

I completely disagree. Allen was cash-strapped and Shanahan won two Super Bowls while the Broncos were consistently a top threat in the AFC for years.

[Oldfan]

I completely disagree. Allen was cash-strapped and Shanahan won two Super Bowls while the Broncos were consistently a top threat in the AFC for years.

Being cash strapped doesn't impact the draft hit rate. Those defending Allen say that Gruden made the picks. So, the best we can say for him is that he wasn't a strong GM, so he shouldn't take the blame for Tampa's mediocrity.

Shanahan inherited Elway and did very well coaching him. However, record over the last ten years shows one win in five playoff games. That's not my idea of "elite." I think we can safely guess that it wasn't Pat Bowlen's either.

[mdpell]

This is why I like how they did our schedule this year. Surely we are going into the season with question marks. I dont care who we got/cut/traded. We were 4-12 last year. We havent earned anything until we start playing football.

The last two seasons have started off sour. We looked like a JV team in both of our season openers to the Giants and althought we still ended up getting off the a hot start in 08. I feel those games set a tone and a realistic expectation for the upcoming seasons.

Shannahan and his players have the opportunity to put up or shut up on national television against our biggest rival week one.

[Forever21]

A lot of good points here, but this is my philosophy in one sentence:

Shanahan and Allen have my faith until they lose it due to no improvement in our team's performance.

That's mine exactly.

I think many folks are still suffering from a Vinny hangover and thus are skeptical of our FO even though things are very different. I understand this though because it's been driven into our skulls for 10 years.

I am giving this regime the benefit of the doubt until they no longer deserve it.

[SKINSFAN87]

Not concerned at all, and shanny is the best coach the team has had in a long time. He has brought in great assistants and fresh perspective. I might agree with you on the record as saying we may only finish 8-8 this year, and i'm ok with that because this team is a couple of years away from what I think shanny believes that he needs for long term success. This team was in shambles when shanny arrived and you can already see progress he has made (ie. players trust and accountabilities) that we haven't seen before. Love the move by the skins, but I think that it may take some time.

[Art McDonough]

You say 7-9 like it's a bad thing. Personally, with our schedule, I think 7-9 would be a good first year. My hope is that the "win now or else" philosophy is gone and has been replaced by patience and slow growth towards a Super Bowl in ,hopefully, 3 or 4 years. This organization has been bad on so many levels for so long, it's not going to turn around overnight.

[HailGreen28]

Kyle Shanahan to me is the most exciting thing right now going on for the skins. I know that Bruce and Shanny have a plan. Fixing the front office has been the main priority and we're starting to function like a normal team. You can't fix 10 years of "stupid management" in one year. This is at least a 2 to 3 year turnaround.

I'm really hoping that Kyle takes the reigns after a few years. I'll be really dissapointed if we let him go to another team to become HC. Right now is an exciting time to be a skins fan. Who else wishes the season started tomorrow?I dunno know, man. Kyle must've done well in Houston, but then why did Houston let him go?

The "Oh I think we're starting Heyer at tackle" comment is a little worrisome too. Especially coming from our OC. Like Zorn's "maroon and black" comment. Kinda red flag about attention to very basic stuff.

[NewCliche21]

Being cash strapped doesn't impact the draft hit rate. Those defending Allen say that Gruden made the picks. So, the best we can say for him is that he wasn't a strong GM, so he shouldn't take the blame for Tampa's mediocrity.

Shanahan inherited Elway and did very well coaching him. However, record over the last ten years shows one win in five playoff games. That's not my idea of "elite." I think we can safely guess that it wasn't Pat Bowlen's either.

It's interesting that you say that it's Allen/Gruden and then put the blame squarely on Allen for those drafts.

I'm also wondering how many Super Bowls Elway won without Shanahan and what the Broncos' record was each year during Shanahan's tenure there. I'm curious as to how Jay Cutler, who was Shanahan's pick, performed without Shanahan. I'm also wondering how Kyle Shanahan has done in the league.

But, you know, that could all be trivial. :)

[boobiemiles]

There are a lot of SKins fans that would have drank the kool aide at Jones Town. I concur with you, Mike and Allen have a lot to show me. JC can take a licking and keep ticking. He has the same stats as McNabb, without being a diva. I hope this works out, but I doubt it.

[NewCliche21]

I dunno know, man. Kyle must've done well in Houston, but then why did Houston let him go?

The "Oh I think we're starting Heyer at tackle" comment is a little worrisome too. Especially coming from our OC. Like Zorn's "maroon and black" comment. Kinda red flag about attention to very basic stuff.

They didn't let him go; he said that he was out and wanted to be with his dad. Houston wasn't going to deny him that.

As for Heyer, this isn't Vinny's team anymore. I'd take anything and everything said by this administration at anything but face value.

[NewCliche21]

There are a lot of SKins fans that would have drank the kool aide at Jones Town. I concur with you, Mike and Allen have a lot to show me. JC can take a licking and keep ticking. He has the same stats as McNabb, without being a diva. I hope this works out, but I doubt it.

Are you, with a straight face, comparing Campbell to McNabb and saying that they're equal?

[Passizle]

In all seriousness though, we now have a team with experience and leadership. We've got an accomplished QB along with capable backups, we're stacked at running back, have the best young offensive mind as offensive coordinator, a defense that's only getting better with an experienced coordinator, young receivers that have shown talent, a pro-bowl tight end, and oh yeah, our head coach has won 3 superbowls and is known for getting the best out of players. How can you not be at least a tad optimistic?

If the O-line is as good as Buges and Saunders wants to project, we've got a chance of being a real powerhouse this year, if not into the future.

Thats good and all, but you could copy your post... throw it in a time machine and paste it in any thread from the 2005 off season with little changes and... See my edit of your post above... its spooky. :)

[Oldfan]

You say 7-9 like it's a bad thing. Personally, with our schedule, I think 7-9 would be a good first year. My hope is that the "win now or else" philosophy is gone and has been replaced by patience and slow growth towards a Super Bowl in ,hopefully, 3 or 4 years. This organization has been bad on so many levels for so long, it's not going to turn around overnight.

How did the signings of the FA over-the-hill RBs and the trade of two picks for 34 year-old NcNabb impact your hope that the 'win now or else" philosophy is gone?

[HailGreen28]

They didn't let him go; he said that he was out and wanted to be with his dad. Houston wasn't going to deny him that.

As for Heyer, this isn't Vinny's team anymore. I'd take anything and everything said by this administration at anything but face value.OK, good that Houston was cool about that. Still the Heyer comment seemed like a clueless "sacks-n-stuff" soundbite. Hope it was a case of "clueless reporter" instead.

[zoony]

I'm trying to think of any coach in the league in, oh, the last 20 years or so has been given "3-4" years to build.

It's a win now or else league. Deal with it.

.....

[Oldfan]

Are you, with a straight face, comparing Campbell to McNabb and saying that they're equal?

Can you , with a straight face, claim that a 34 year-old McNabb, with his fond memories of being able to run, would have done much better with our 2009 O line?

[thomasroane]

After all of these years of mediocrity of course I am concerned. However the fact of the matter is Mike Shanahan is the brightest light we have seen in DC in years. Yes, Gibbs 2.0 had its moments, but lets face facts he had been out of the game too long and was held down by a weak front office, namely Vinny Cerrato. Bringing in Bruce Allen as the GM was brilliant on Daniel Snyder's part. It stirred feelings of glory past due to his father's legacy. The combination of these two touted men is the best the Redskins have had in nearly 20 years. Does that mean the Redskins are going to go to the Super Bowl or playoffs? Probably not. There are far too many holes on the team due to years of improper management, but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

HTTR

You read my mind!

I think people are missing out on what Shannahan is doing. While it would be nice to go with a youth movement we don't have the draft picks and the free agent pool this year was old; due to the CBA. So what was Shannhan/Allen gonna do?

Fill out the roster with UFA's?

-Or-

Over load on low-cost vets creating maximum competition at every position. Thus building a core group of players who know what it takes to succeed in the NFL. Then begin adding younger players along the way who can benefit from true professionals who can mentor them and help the Coaching Staff build a winning culture.

[joeknows]

for the most part i agree with everything you said however im not in total agreement about the mcnabb thing.

that being said.... i too am concerned about the move to a 3-4 defense. i mean when you consider this defense has consistently been a top 10 defense most of the last 10 years and even last year when they spent a whopping near 40 mins a game on the field. think about that. our defense spent most of the game time on the field..... and still was top 10.

i subscribe to the idea that if it aint broke......... dont fix it.

so yeah im concerned..... big time!

[dadirtbags]

He had full control in Denver for 14 years -- and he decided this past year to learn about defenses?

well I'm sure there are different levels of learning (dig deeper into the subject)...no?


from what I read...he had been visiting a few select teams studying there D during last years training camps...wanting to understand every aspect ...I took it like ...studying like a D cordinator...but I could be wrong

[skins island connection]

Shanny has the ability to revive the Skins; something Zorn couldn't do. Players didn't believe in Z and it showed on the field. At least there's a fresh face as HC and DC, so its a wait and see attitude for me.
DM will do alot better than JC, and it will be clear as daylight, but I am not expecting miracles, even though they do happen!

The team is going in the right direction, and I am hoping that the stagnant offense of years past will erupt stronger than the volcano in Iceland!!!

:logo:

[zoony]

Can you , with a straight face, claim that a 34 year-old McNabb, with his fond memories of being able to run, would have done much better with our 2009 O line?


Absolutely without question. McNabb isn't a Grade A ignoramous that cannot read a basic NFL defense.

Zorn and Vinny both saw that too. And Zorn came right out and said it twice last season. (that his QB couldn't read the D)

....

[Passizle]

I'm trying to think of any coach in the league in, oh, the last 20 years or so has been given "3-4" years to build.

It's a win now or else league. Deal with it.

.....
Ummm... Gary Kubiak? Just off the top of my head mind you...

[Oldfan]

well I'm sure there are different levels of learning (dig deeper into the subject)...no?

from what I read...he had been visiting a few select teams studying there D during last years training camps...wanting to understand every aspect ...I took it like ...studying like a D cordinator...but I could be wrong

I think Mike used the year off to study both offensive and defensive schemes. I have read that he has incorporated some of Belichick's philosophy into his offense, but the article gave nothing specific.

McNabb's skillset is very different than Brady's, so I'm not looking for a lot of shotgun and ball control passing.

[Passizle]

Absolutely without question. McNabb isn't a Grade A ignoramous that cannot read a basic NFL defense.

Zorn and Vinny both saw that too. And Zorn came right out and said it twice last season. (that his QB couldn't read the D)

....
Please Zoony. If it were so, please provide a link. Also, why in the world would they continue to start the "grade A ignoramous" QB to a 4-12 season with both of their jobs on the line?

[skinsdude]

There are a lot of SKins fans that would have drank the kool aide at Jones Town. I concur with you, Mike and Allen have a lot to show me. JC can take a licking and keep ticking. He has the same stats as McNabb, without being a diva. I hope this works out, but I doubt it.


Can you , with a straight face, claim that a 34 year-old McNabb, with his fond memories of being able to run, would have done much better with our 2009 O line?

And the Jason "lovers" feel that the Jason "haters" are unreasonable. To continue to argue that McNabb is not an upgrade is ridiculous.

[Oldfan]

Absolutely without question. McNabb isn't a Grade A ignoramous that cannot read a basic NFL defense.

Zorn and Vinny both saw that too. And Zorn came right out and said it twice last season. (that his QB couldn't read the D)

....

You exaggerate. Zorn's criticism of Jason was no where near as broad as you are portraying it.

Logically, I have to think that McNabb's infamous inconsistency on his short-to-medium range passes would be more of a misfit for a line that can't protect than Jason's inconsistency on his deep throws. Wouldn't you?

[Reaper 21]

Im a jc beleiver not lover but still believe mcnabb is an upgrade dude was sick in philly and hated him because for the past decade he has killed the skins. as for shannahan im a believer in his philosophy and everything. Everybody is so worried about the draft picks and i am too a bit, cuz we do need to get younger but bringing in some older players and trades might it just be a stop gap for this season so we do not get embarrassed maybe mike recognizes this and feels that the draft this year is not as deep as we think and maybe only sees 1, or 2 guys that will be there when we pick that he feels the picks are worth keeping for

[Oldfan]

And the Jason "lovers" feel that the Jason "haters" are unreasonable. To continue to argue that McNabb is not an upgrade is ridiculous.

Jason Campbell has been a tad below average. McNabb has been above average, but he's 34 and his legs are not what they used to be, so his ability to extend plays is not what it used to be either. He will be an upgrade for the short term and not worth two picks on a team that needs an O line overhaul.

[dadirtbags]

I think Mike used the year off to study both offensive and defensive schemes. I have read that he has incorporated some of Belichick's philosophy into his offense, but the article gave nothing specific.

McNabb's skillset is very different than Brady's, so I'm not looking for a lot of shotgun and ball control passing.


"It certainly doesn’t affect much of what the Broncos are doing these days, but for those wondering when and how Mike Shanahan will return to the NFL, his little summer tour gives some insights.

Shanahan, who has toured some training camps with former defensive coordinator Bob Slowik, is not just visiting friends.

He took a look at the 3-4 defense in New England and Pittsburgh and some of his friends in coaching believe he is ready to use the scheme when he does return to the sideline.

A little irony there in that it is the defense the Broncos will use this season.

He visited Arizona because he believes the Cardinals are the ones pushing the envelope on offense in the league these days.

He may need to find a receiver like Larry Fitzgerald to really make it work, however.

And when Shanahan and Slowik conclude their tour next week, their final stop will be the University of Florida where Shanahan wants to take a look at the Gators’ spread offense.

So he’s clearly studying for his next job. And he clearly has already given a thought or two to what he will do once he gets it."

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2009/08/13/the-shanahan-tour/?source=ARK_broncos

[skinsdude]

Jason Campbell has been a tad below average. McNabb has been above average, but he's 34 and his legs are not what they used to be, so his ability to extend plays is not what it used to be either. He will be an upgrade for the short term and not worth two picks on a team that needs an O line overhaul.

As I’ve said before, we had no choice. We needed a new quarterback and left tackle this year. Jason was never going to play a down at starting quarterback for our football team. We weren’t going to draft o-line at 4 and 37 anyway so what does it matter? We would have had to draft a quarterback at one of those positions and a left tackle at the other.

[Oldfan]

As I’ve said before, we had no choice. We needed a new quarterback and left tackle this year. Jason was never going to play a down at starting quarterback for our football team. We weren’t going to draft o-line at 4 and 37 anyway so what does it matter? We would have had to draft a quarterback at one of those positions and a left tackle at the other.

We had no choice?

The only way you can justify saying "we had no choice" is by starting with the idea that winning games in 2010 is the only thing that matters.

[zskins]

Jason Campbell has been a tad below average. McNabb has been above average, but he's 34 and his legs are not what they used to be, so his ability to extend plays is not what it used to be either. He will be an upgrade for the short term and not worth two picks on a team that needs an O line overhaul.

I thought it was just one pick this year. And a conditional one next year. No?

And you can't guarantee that that one 2nd round pick would have been a great starter his first year in the NFL. At least with McNabb you do have a prove albiet an older veteran.

Regardless if you don't have a better QB/leader behind any line the players moral will go down eventually when they are not winning games. MaNabb might be a slight upgrade but at least he can read defenses and won't see JC with his deer-looking-into-lights thing. :) And I am sure you still think Ramsey would have been even a better upgrade over JC and McNabb. ;)

And to the OP - sometime you have to sit and watch. But will say I have a good feeling we will go 16-0 or better this year. :D

[dadirtbags]

As I’ve said before, we had no choice. We needed a new quarterback and left tackle this year. Jason was never going to play a down at starting quarterback for our football team. We weren’t going to draft o-line at 4 and 37 anyway so what does it matter? We would have had to draft a quarterback at one of those positions and a left tackle at the other.

I think we had a choice...Shanny and Allen just chose a different route...they have been clear from day one...that they were looking to improve our football team and looking at all options...I believe that is what we witnessed with this paticular trade...JMHO

[Oldfan]

...
So he’s clearly studying for his next job. And he clearly has already given a thought or two to what he will do once he gets it."

Mike had more time to study schemes, both offensive and defensive, in his year off, but he tried several DCs, with a variety of defenses in the last ten years at Denver also.

[skinsdude]

We had no choice?

The only way you can justify saying "we had no choice" is by starting with the idea that winning games in 2010 is the only thing that matters.

We had no choice. We had a quarterback that we have tried for the last two years to get rid of. We still can't get rid of him. We are going to grow as a football team this year. We have a better chance to be competitive with Donovan. Why would we waste another year with Jason under center? He is not in our future. Winning games in 2010 is all that matters. This trade did not mortgage our future. No one in the NFL rebuilds. It's about winning today.

[skinsdude]

I think we had a choice...Shanny and Allen just chose a different route...they have been clear from day one...that they were looking to improve our football team and looking at all options...I believe that is what we witnessed with this paticular trade...JMHO

What was the choice?

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

I am just concerned the band is going to be exahausted with many carpal tunnel injuries form playing Hail to the Redskins after so many scores....enjoy the ride

[Oldfan]

I thought it was just one pick this year. And a conditional one next year. No? One plus one is two.:)


And you can't guarantee that that one 2nd round pick would have been a great starter his first year in the NFL. At least with McNabb you do have a prove albiet an older veteran.

That would be a concern if winning another game or two in 2010 is the goal.

[Oldfan]

...Winning games in 2010 is all that matters. Not to me.


This trade did not mortgage our future.

Of course it did.


No one in the NFL rebuilds. It's about winning today.

I doubt that; but if it's true, I don't care. I want us to aim for the bull's eye, not just hoping to hit the target. I want an elite team, one that is challenging for championships every year.

[Skinz#28Rules]

I dunno know, man. Kyle must've done well in Houston, but then why did Houston let him go?

The "Oh I think we're starting Heyer at tackle" comment is a little worrisome too. Especially coming from our OC. Like Zorn's "maroon and black" comment. Kinda red flag about attention to very basic stuff.


I don't think Houston "let him go" as you say. It was an opportunity for Kyle to work with his father before MS eventually retires. MS would not let KS work with him when KS first started in the league. He wanted him to not be in his shadow and show what 'he was made of' sort of speak.

Well I believe Kyle has done that. He's been running one of the best offenses in the league the past couple years. He's young, hungry, just like his father was/is. That's what this organization needs.

As far as the Heyer comment. I would look at that as a smoke screen. Who's going to come in and say, "Well I think our line is good except for Heyer, he flat out can't block and we may need to address that in the draft." That's how I'm reading into it anyway. I think we address the line with our 1st pick at least I'm hoping. This front office is holding their cards close and we're not used to seeing that from this front office. No one knows what the skins are going to do, everything for the most part is just pure speculation.

Here's to thursday when we will finally end all that!!:)

[Rodriggo]

How can you be concerned?

For the first time in a long, long, long time we have both a competent head coach and QB.

We went into last season with Jim Zorn and Jason Campbell, how can you not be ecstatic right now?

Shanahan wore out his welcome in Denver, but he was an unmitigated success there where he coached a team led by Jake ******* Plummer to the AFC Championship.

If he only restores this organization to a perennial playoff contender then he will have done his job.

We were not only average but a laughing stock under Jim Zorn and yet now we have to be concerned about Mike Shanahan?!?!?

[SonnyJ]

I'm trying to think of any coach in the league in, oh, the last 20 years or so has been given "3-4" years to build.

It's a win now or else league. Deal with it.

.....

Ain't it the truth.

Leading up to the draft, if we are to believe consensus reports that the Rams are taking Bradford, I find myself wondering how Spags feels about drafting the franchise QB for the next head coach of the Rams. He'll get to deal with the development and growing pains of Bradford, and the next guy will reap the rewards of that process.

If I'm Spags, I'm taking the guy that has a chance of providing me the most immediate benefit, and Bradford almost certainly is not that guy. With the flux in ownership, another clunker of a season could very well mean he's out the door, regardless of circumstances. There are exceedingly few coaches that have the luxury of "slowly building" a program over 3-4 years.

[zskins]

One plus one is two.:)

Ah, but not two picks this year. ;) I read your post as being two picks this year. It is all good. :)


That would be a concern if winning another game or two in 2010 is the goal.

Well the way things are going so far I say we are not in rebuild mode. The mode you would like us to be in. I agree with you that we should be in developmental stage for the first 2 years but win-now is what the FO is thinking since they have spent so much money on players like AH and Hall. Maybe that is why a so called rebuild will be just wasting time and money as other players like Portis and Moss are getting older.

Still OF if we become competitive again and even get into the playoffs this year I am sure no one would mind including you. I really don't have a problem with being still competitive and rebuilding a little by little as you go along.

[Mahons21]

Bringing in a bunch of young college guys that may or may not pan out, which some people seem to be suggesting, doesn't always work out that well. You need to have a stable base and system for these guys to come into, veteran leadership for them to learn from. Shanahan is creating an environment where rookie's can come in and actually succeed, rather than bringing in a bunch of young guys into some jumbled mess. Which would almost certainly lead to tons of rookie mistakes, that might cause the young guns confidence to be shot. The offseason isn't over, we don't know what else they plan on doing.

But I for one don't want to get younger just for the sake of getting younger. There seems to be a belief that if you stockpile tons draft picks, your bound to be good in a few years, and that isn't the case.

[MustangSteve]

How can you be concerned?

For the first time in a long, long, long time we have both a competent head coach and QB.

We went into last season with Jim Zorn and Jason Campbell, how can you not be ecstatic right now?

Shanahan wore out his welcome in Denver, but he was an unmitigated success there where he coached a team led by Jake ******* Plummer to the AFC Championship.

If he only restores this organization to a perennial playoff contender then he will have done his job.

We were not only average but a laughing stock under Jim Zorn and yet now we have to be concerned about Mike Shanahan?!?!?
:applause: good thread, all I have to say is bring it on, this team is geared to kick some azz now!

[Hitman21ST]

We had no choice. We had a quarterback that we have tried for the last two years to get rid of. We still can't get rid of him. We are going to grow as a football team this year. We have a better chance to be competitive with Donovan. Why would we waste another year with Jason under center? He is not in our future. Winning games in 2010 is all that matters. This trade did not mortgage our future. No one in the NFL rebuilds. It's about winning today.

[skins island connection]

Oldfan,
I am not trying to stir up anything, but I just have to know why you believe JC is/would be the QB of the future in DC?
He hasn't shown progress, or at least enough to merit keeping, and he still has the same bad habits that he had when he started; i.e. staring down 1 receiver, overthrowing a receiver when he throws downfield once in a game, and poor ball handling skills.
At least McNabb is seasoned and has seen and can adjust to blitzing far better than JC could ever, and is more accurate throwing downfield, without a doubt!
A comfy little pocket for JC to throw out of will never happen; no o-line ever has been able to protect the qb 100% of the time, so I like the odds with DM alot better than JC...

[Mooka]

McNabb staying healthy is the only concern.

He gets injured and we're in trouble.

[Mahons21]

McNabb staying healthy is the only concern.

He gets injured and we're in trouble.

Na dude.. If he gets hurt, we're going to bring out the secret weapon... and we WILL unleash the dragon.

[Taylorfan2179]

Nice thread, but next time, please adhere to Rule 8.

8. Please use descriptive topic titles for your thread.
sorry

[Oldfan]

Oldfan,
I am not trying to stir up anything, but I just have to know why you believe JC is/would be the QB of the future in DC?.

I don't. I give him a C- and I'd replace him with a better QB when the right opportunity arises. I don't think that giving up two picks for an old vet is the right opportunity.

[skinsdude]

I don't. I give him a C- and I'd replace him with a better QB when the right opportunity arises. I don't think that giving up two picks for an old vet is the right opportunity.

What would be the right opportunity?

[Mr. Sinister]

Bringing in a bunch of young college guys that may or may not pan out, which some people seem to be suggesting, doesn't always work out that well. You need to have a stable base and system for these guys to come into, veteran leadership for them to learn from. Shanahan is creating an environment where rookie's can come in and actually succeed, rather than bringing in a bunch of young guys into some jumbled mess. Which would almost certainly lead to tons of rookie mistakes, that might cause the young guns confidence to be shot. The offseason isn't over, we don't know what else they plan on doing.

But I for one don't want to get younger just for the sake of getting younger. There seems to be a belief that if you stockpile tons draft picks, your bound to be good in a few years, and that isn't the case.

I agree

[Atlass]

After all of these years of mediocrity of course I am concerned. However the fact of the matter is Mike Shanahan is the brightest light we have seen in DC in years. Yes, Gibbs 2.0 had its moments, but lets face facts he had been out of the game too long and was held down by a weak front office, namely Vinny Cerrato. Bringing in Bruce Allen as the GM was brilliant on Daniel Snyder's part. It stirred feelings of glory past due to his father's legacy. The combination of these two touted men is the best the Redskins have had in nearly 20 years. Does that mean the Redskins are going to go to the Super Bowl or playoffs? Probably not. There are far too many holes on the team due to years of improper management, but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

HTTR

Don't make any mistake about it. Mike Shanhan brought in Allen, not Snyder. They were a package deal. Shanny has been plotting his return to the NFL for a year and he knew who he wanted.

And yes, Allen was a great hire, by Shanny.

[nittydachamp]

things show be better than last season. synder sitting back letting them run the team.

[Atlass]

My thought is almost the same, only 7-9 seems off. More like 6-10 tops. oh, by the way, anything Shanny says, just think the opposite and you will be fine. You have been informed he is the second coming? He will fix EVERYTHING just like Obama and his Obama-care! :ols:

Wow, that whole post is pretty idiotic. The Redskins played hard last year and they were in a lot of close games. Do you know how small the margin of error is between winning and losing in the NFL? Mike Shanhan has had 2 losing seasons in 15 years of coaching! 15 YEARS!!

There are three things you CAN ALWAYS count on as long as Shanny is the coach. The Skins will win 8 or more games every year and they will be in the top 10 in rushing, which I believe they go hand in hand.

What I like best about McNabb is that he is alot like Elway. He isn't the pure passer that just goes out and plays the sterile type game of a Manning or Breeze. He goes out and manages the game and does whatever it takes to win. He might not look pretty but he is a winner.

With the running game the Skins are going to deploy this year McNabb's job will be to pick up 3rd downs. He could play 5 more years in this system and retire at the same age Elway did.

It's going to be a great year and for you to say 6 wins at best is laughable. I say 8 wins at the worst with an outside chance at 10. I believe both the Eagles and Giants will take a step back this year.

[anar-k21]

im not to concerned... definately anxious... but totally excited to have Shanny & Ole #5 its gonna be great!

[Oldfan]

What would be the right opportunity?

Out of the draft, I would not spend more than a #2 or #3 and I'd use Drew Brees as my prototype: smart, very accurate, good mobility but not a scrambler, lacks size, lacks a cannon. If he has size and a strong arm, he's not going to be available after the first round.

[Mahons21]

Out of the draft, I would not spend more than a #2 or #3 and I'd use Drew Brees as my prototype: smart, very accurate, good mobility but not a scrambler, lacks size, lacks a cannon. If he has size and a strong arm, he's not going to be available after the first round.

Drew Brees is a rarity though. There is a reason NFL teams like QB with prototypical size, it does matter, as does arm-strength. Brees is an exceptional talent, and you'll be hard pressed to find another talent as good as him in the 2nd round. Just my opinion.

[Morneblade]

To the OP - I am. I figure 6-10 with our defense regressing and our OL still being garbage. I have serious concerns with McNabb staying healthy all year behind this line, and the fact that Grossman will likely see alot of playing time. We also have a tough schedual. I dont know why people are shooting up on to think we're going 11-5. .500 is a real stretch. There is ALOT of spiked :koolaid: on this board right now.

[skinsdude]

Out of the draft, I would not spend more than a #2 or #3 and I'd use Drew Brees as my prototype: smart, very accurate, good mobility but not a scrambler, lacks size, lacks a cannon. If he has size and a strong arm, he's not going to be available after the first round.

Out of this year's draft or next year's draft? When do you think that this "project" would have been ready to start? Who would have been the quarterback in the meantime? That's the problem and it's a big one.

[boobiemiles]

Are you, with a straight face, comparing Campbell to McNabb and saying that they're equal?
No. McNabb has a more distinguish career. McNabb has accomplished more. He is a better QB overall. He is a true leader. One of the knocks on JC is that he never stepped up. McNabb came to this team, and automatically took over as team leader. As a franchise we haven't had some one with that moxy since Joe Thiesman, is you ask me. He is a franchise qb. As a franchise we have been starving for a franchise QB for a long time.

But there are draw backs as well. McNabb is turning 34 this year. He is oft-injured. McNabb is about to play behind a patch work offensive line. This is the same guy that threw for 39 yards against the Raiders. He can be hot and cold like a faucet. And last but not least, McNabb and JC have comparable stats from 2009. D. McNabb threw for 3553, 22 TD's, and 10 ints in 13 games; JC threw for 3645, 20 TD's and 15 Int's. McNabb played behind a stout offensive line, JC played behind a patch work offensive line. McNabb had more weapons to play with. He was in the same system for 9 years. And yet with all the accolades he was ran out of town. We have been here before.

I think that JC is going to make some team very happy. He has improved in a terrible situation. We had a patch work front office. It would be good to see JC on a team with a sound FO, a good system, that is not dated. I think JC can thrive. Can he be better than McNabb who knows. He hasn't had the advantages McNabb had. Even when we had Gibbs, we were still a second class organization.

We keep forgeting JC won. He knows how to win. Granted he has to step up as a leader, but that can take time. Maybe he never felt "this was his team", with this pschyzo organization, who can blame him. Steve Lavin said something profound when St. Johns hired him. He said "it is impossible to be great in a place of apathy". That is what we were. Look at how many Pro Bowler came to this team and saw their career crash and burn. Is it the system or the player, nature or nuture? We are about to find out the hard way.

[boofMcboof]

My concern:

How many coaches who had final say on personnel matters actually built a Super Bowl winning team besides Belichick?

[E-Dog Night]

He visited Arizona because he believes the Cardinals are the ones pushing the envelope on offense in the league these days.

He may need to find a receiver like Larry Fitzgerald to really make it work, however.


Sounds easy. Lots of receivers like Larry Fitzgerald out there that nobody wants. :)

We had our best shot when Marshall was available, but I don't see how we could have gotten him. Still, I think Shanahan can make this work without a receiver like that. Who knows, maybe he can get more of out Thomas or Kelly than we've seen so far.

[nebster21]

I am not sold on the whole Shanahan being the saviour but who do you think would fix this situation?

[Laxpunk2006]

I share some of your concerns but not as strongly. I do think there is too much optimism on this board but I think your OP is a little too far on the other side.

The whole "we finally have a real coach!" and "there is change!" thing is getting old. The players were singing the same tune when we got Gibbs back and when we hired Zorn. The whole "grass is always greener" mentality is pretty evident everytime there is a change. If Shanahan fails to deliver (I'm not saying he will) we'll have ES crying about how we're sick of retreads and the win now mentality and that we should have rebuilt from the ground up.

I think it would do us all a lot of good to take the "wait and see" approach to this team. There are moves Shanahan has made that I really like and ones that I don't agree with at all. Rather than pretend I know more than an NFL coach (that includes Zorn who this board seems to think is an idiot now) I'm going to wait and see what actually happens.

[NewCliche21]

No. McNabb has a more distinguish career . . .

Question retracted. :)

[Sanders 83]

No matter what, before any games are played we are all just stating our opinions, right or wrong. I think Taylor's concern's are valid, even if I don't agree. With how consistently frustrating this team has been since 92, it's pretty easy to not be optimistic when most are. But I think that's the great thing about most Redskins fans, we always have hope, and we don't give up.

I live in Jacksonville where they barely have half of the seats we do(they actually have 77K but 15K are boxed out each game), and they can't sell out with an average team. We have made the playoffs 3 times in 18 years and even if it were zero we would still sellout.

I would have a really hard time believing anyone talking about Super Bowl or even winning the divison in the first or even second year under Shanahan. But it would also be hard to believe we could get much worse than we were last year, or under Norv/Spurrier. So for me it's easy to be excited that we are headed in the right direction with the combination of Bruce Allen AND Shanahan. But even if they did fail after a couple of years, I will still be a diehard Redskins fan and still have hope that someone can bring us out of the like of the Lions, Raiders, and Browns.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I dunno know, man. Kyle must've done well in Houston, but then why did Houston let him go?

Houston didn't release him. Kyle's contract expired after the 2009 season and he made the decision to go coach with his father. Kubiak knew what was going on and had no qualms about it out of respect for both of the Shanahans. Remember, Kubiak was Elway's backup once upon a time and was coached by Mike before eventually becoming the Broncos offensive coordinator.


Ummm... Gary Kubiak? Just off the top of my head mind you...

Kubiak took a 2-14 team and improved them to 6-10 in his first season and 8-8 in his second. That's a pretty substantial turnaround, particularly considering how tough the AFC South has been, and is the main reason he's stuck around for 4 seasons. He wouldn't have made it past season two if he didn't demonstrate to ownership that he was on the right track.

[paloosa]

I believe you are in the same position or frame of mind as the mass majority of Redskins Nation. The thing that we have to understand is that Mike Shanahan is a proven coach that has a good track record. Yes, he got fired because of a few bad seasons that he made some bad personnel choices but he isn't making all the personnel choices like he was in Denver. He has all the pieces here to be successful and it may not seem that we have the talent but we do. Mike Shanahan is not Jim Zorn so the results should be better than the last couple of years. As for the atmosphere around Redskins park that is a good thing. People are on their toes and no one has a good idea of what we will do in the draft not even that weasel, JLC. So I am a little more optimistic than most but I think that we will make the playoffs even if it is 9-7.

[Passizle]

Houston didn't release him. Kyle's contract expired after the 2009 season and he made the decision to go coach with his father. Kubiak knew what was going on and had no qualms about it out of respect for both of the Shanahans. Remember, Kubiak was Elway's backup once upon a time and was coached by Mike before eventually becoming the Broncos offensive coordinator.



Kubiak took a 2-14 team and improved them to 6-10 in his first season and 8-8 in his second. That's a pretty substantial turnaround, particularly considering how tough the AFC South has been, and is the main reason he's stuck around for 4 seasons. He wouldn't have made it past season two if he didn't demonstrate to ownership that he was on the right track.
And in the seasons after that they have gone 8-8 and 9-7. 4 years to increas just a tick abot .500. Thats a trend upwards, but if it continues, it will take until 2014 for them to be a 12 win team. That will be 8 years. It was a mere rebutle to Zoony's hypothesis that there are no longer franchises that have time to grow.
Kubiak was just a small sample size. There have been plenty of coaches who have built from the ground up. The smart franchises dont mind taking the timeto do it right.
Cowher
Dungy
Belliczeck (or however you spell it)
Marvin Lewis
Billick
Fisher
Schotty
Turner
Childress
etc...

[SkinsFanMania]

Taylorfan,

I'm not concerned about Shanahan at all. I am concerned about you getting enough sleep.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I doubt that; but if it's true, I don't care. I want us to aim for the bull's eye, not just hoping to hit the target. I want an elite team, one that is challenging for championships every year.



That's a narrow view of things. A fan's view. From the perspective of the organization, you want to field a competitive team while you try to put pieces in place for the future. You have to attract fans. You can't have half empty home games because the product on the field keeps losing. You have to look at the financial aspect too. It doesn't make financial sense to lose for two or three seasons while you wait to build a contender. You have to try to do both simultaneously

[Oldfan]

Drew Brees is a rarity though. There is a reason NFL teams like QB with prototypical size, it does matter, as does arm-strength. Brees is an exceptional talent, and you'll be hard pressed to find another talent as good as him in the 2nd round. Just my opinion.

Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Steve Young (trade of #2 and #4, both at the bottom of the round), Bart Starr. There are some others who didn't win multiple championships.

[Oldfan]

It doesn't make financial sense to lose for two or three seasons while you wait to build a contender. You have to try to do both simultaneously

It's fine with me if they want to fill in gaps with cheap vets, but give me some decision makers who have demonstrated in the past that they want to build something special; and let them make moves today like that's their plan That's not too much to ask. Is it?

[Coloradoskin]

not as scared as I would be with Shanahan and Jason Campbell

[hitmandm]

I am. Shanny is a reportedly bad GM and talent evaluator. I hate the McNabb pick up and we will be wishing we would have kept those picks and sent them to St. Louis for Bradford instead of getting an overrated QB who never showed up for the big games (watch the Dallas games last year and see if you are confident about this move) and who was happily ran out of town by its fanbase.

[Mahons21]

Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Steve Young (trade of #2 and #4, both at the bottom of the round), Bart Starr. There are some others who didn't win multiple championships.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but what is that like average of 1-2 a decade of how many QB's drafted after the 1st? Look I don't think you need to draft a QB in the top 5 by any means, but landing an extremely accurate smart QB after the first round isn't going to be common. In addition two of the QB's you listed here and Drew Brees, all played under a great schemes. Young/Montana with Walsh and Brees with Payton.

[hitmandm]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but what is that like average of 1-2 a decade of how many QB's drafted after the 1st? Look I don't think you need to draft a QB in the top 5 by any means, but landing an extremely accurate smart QB after the first round isn't going to be common. In addition two of the QB's you listed here and Drew Brees, all played under a great schemes. Young/Montana with Walsh and Brees with Payton.

Except for Brady which was a decade ago, all those examples are like 20-30 years ago. Both Manning brothers have SB rings, Ben has 2, Rivers looks legit.

[skins island connection]

Drafting a franchise 1st rnd QB is pretty much a crapshoot; ya just don't know, with the exception of Peyton Manning.
But drafting is like putting a jigsaw puzzle together; if the pieces fit right, the product looks good, and I think Shanny will make a few negative moves, but overall I think he will pick this team and fanbase back up where it belongs; ON TOP!

[Mahons21]

Except for Brady which was a decade ago, all those examples are like 20-30 years ago. Both Manning brothers have SB rings, Ben has 2, Rivers looks legit.

-I'm not really sure what your point is... I'm arguing that while players situations such as Brees falling in to the second do occur, its very rare, and is not something to be counted on.

[rk3025]

What I hear is that nobody can catch a ball and Shanny does not want TO or Porter so I guess we will run the ball this year...

Drafting a franchise 1st rnd QB is pretty much a crapshoot; ya just don't know, with the exception of Peyton Manning.
But drafting is like putting a jigsaw puzzle together; if the pieces fit right, the product looks good, and I think Shanny will make a few negative moves, but overall I think he will pick this team and fanbase back up where it belongs; ON TOP!

[Oldfan]

.... In addition two of the QB's you listed here and Drew Brees, all played under a great schemes. Young/Montana with Walsh and Brees with Payton.

ALL of the QBs I mentioned played under great schemes. Part of the scheming was to eliminate the need for a big, mobile QB with a cannon arm. That means you don't have to gamble a #1 on a QB who reminds you of John Elway in tools, but might have Jeff George's head. Maybe you spend a couple of #2s or #3s.

QBs like Brees, Brady and Montana are not rare. They are good QBs who were lucky enough to play for good offenses. If the Saints had taken Tom Brady in the sixth round, Marc Bulger might have been drafted by the Patriots and become a future first-round HOF selection.

[hitmandm]

-I'm not really sure what your point is... I'm arguing that while players situations such as Brees falling in to the second do occur, its very rare, and is not something to be counted on.

It is clear I am agreeing with your point to the OP.

[Taylorfan2179]

I say again, is anyone else concerned?

[VaBeachRedskin]

The Skins have a much harder schedule than last year and are making changes for the future. No one should be surprised if the WL record doesn't improve much. As someone pointed out earlier, last year's four wins included two wins when the opponent's starting QB was knocked out and two wins against really bad teams.

Shanahan's a good coach. He's not a magician. The Skins have a lot of mediocre talent. At almost every position, the starter would rank 3rd or 4th in the NFLE. Shanny won't be able to turn over the roster in just one year.

I agree with everything you wrote about Shanahan and the time it will take to rebuild, but then how do you explain his decision to trade a 2nd and a 4th for McNabb?

FWIW I think we will be somewhere between 4-12 and 6-10 next season.

[Atlass]

I agree with everything you wrote about Shanahan and the time it will take to rebuild, but then how do you explain his decision to trade a 2nd and a 4th for McNabb?

FWIW I think we will be somewhere between 4-12 and 6-10 next season.

That's pretty easy to explain. McNabb is a borderline HOF player that has played in 5 NFC Championship games and still has 5 years left in that body of his.

Your prediction of wins is silly. Do you want to bet on that? If the Skins win 6 or fewer games I'll send you $50. For every game over 6 they win you send me $15.

Shanny has had two losing seasons in 15 years of coaching.

[Wyvern]

I wasn't overjoyed with the McNabb trade because it eventually locked us into using our #4 overall pick for an OT. (And since I've already posted several times on the McNabb trade, I won't go into that any further in this thread.)

Basically, after suffering through the Skins 2009 season, -- I hoped the Skins could have made better use of the opportunity from the resulting high drafting position for the Skins -- especially in rounds 1 & 2.


For example, while we need tackles, I felt we could get a top-tier Z-B-S Tackle a little further down in the first round. Consequently, I felt using the #4 pick overall for a ZBS tackle with great 'potential' but reputed strength and character issues, was a bit of reach and more importantly, not very creative use of our high-ranking pick.

I believed there was opportunity to have traded down to #13-15 range and still picking up decent OT value, plus another pick in either the 2nd or 3rd round. Instead, we have Trent Williams and a l-o-n-g wait for our next pick. Oh yes, I don't believe anyone should get that excited about whatever ST materal we draft in the 5th-7th rounds. So, I certainly don't mock those ES fans with doubts on Shanahan/Allen's ability to draft or trade well; they have a very reasonable basis for such a concern. They are not being 'Debbie Downers', 'anti-Redskins', or 'Haters.' and don't deserved to be ridiculed simply for voicing their doubts. After all, some of the fanbase of Allen and Shanahan's former teams raised the same types of issues.

But whether these concerns bear out -- the fact is, Shanahan/Allen are now key parts of Redskins' organization for several years to come. ...It is what it is.

So, I'm not permanently wearing burgundy-tinted glasses nor falling back on the often-heard credo "In Shanny I Trust." Rather, I'm more about keeping my eyes wide-open and HOPING these guys can do a decent job and produce good results.

...And even though I'd hoped for more out of the opportunities presented by our 2010 draft, I know it's way too early to pass judgement on what these two will be able to accomplish for my favorite NFL team.

[VaBeachRedskin]

That's pretty easy to explain. McNabb is a borderline HOF player that has played in 5 NFC Championship games and still has 5 years left in that body of his.

Your prediction of wins is silly. Do you want to bet on that? If the Skins win 6 or fewer games I'll send you $50. For every game over 6 they win you send me $15.

Shanny has had two losing seasons in 15 years of coaching.

So what record do you think we end up with? Obviously you think 8-8 or better based on your last line.

That should be an easy split. If the Redskins finish under .500 you pay me whatever reasonable amount you come up with and if we finish .500 or better I pay you said amount instead. It pains me to bet on the team doing bad, but how they have constructed the team it is not built to succeed next season.

[prufRock]

A coach in his 3rd act, 57 years old. 34 year old quarterback. In a year or two, you could see a little bit of urgency start to influence the offseason strategy. Overpaying for free agents, reaching on draft picks, trading future picks to move up.

Yes, I'm concerned.

[gaskinsfan]

A coach in his 3rd act, 57 years old. 34 year old quarterback. In a year or two, you could see a little bit of urgency start to influence the offseason strategy. Overpaying for free agents, reaching on draft picks, trading future picks to move up.

Yes, I'm concerned.

Where have the Redskins not improved from last year?

HC: Shanahan > Zorn
OC: Kyle Shanahan > Zorn + Bingo Guy
DC: Haslett > Blanche
GM: Allen > Cerrato
QB: McNabb > Campbell
RB: Portis + Parker+LJ+Torain > Portis+Betts+Rock+Mason
WR: Same with experience for younger guys
TE: Same with healthy Cooley and experienced Davis
OLine: Added Hicks+Trent Williams+moved Mike W to guard > OLine last year

The only areas of concern I have is the switch to the 3-4, and the backup QB situation. The 3-4 Switch could be a great move or it might take a year or two to implement. It would be a shame if our offense finally gets going but the defense ends up being the problem.

I hope they release/trade JC and give Colt a shot to be #2.

My conclusion is that the Redskins went from a bottom tier team to a middle tier. Middle tier teams have a chance to make the playoffs. The Eagles and Jets made it to conference champ game the last two years after being middle tier teams in the season. The middle tier is what makes the NFL great, so many teams have a chance. We are not a top tier team yet but going in the right direction.

[jimster]

Man, Shanahan has been here over 3 months and still hasn't won a game yet.

[prufRock]

Where have the Redskins not improved from last year?

HC: Shanahan > Zorn
OC: Kyle Shanahan > Zorn + Bingo Guy
DC: Haslett > Blanche
GM: Allen > Cerrato
QB: McNabb > Campbell
RB: Portis + Parker+LJ+Torain > Portis+Betts+Rock+Mason
WR: Same with experience for younger guys
TE: Same with healthy Cooley and experienced Davis
OLine: Added Hicks+Trent Williams+moved Mike W to guard > OLine last year

The only areas of concern I have is the switch to the 3-4, and the backup QB situation. The 3-4 Switch could be a great move or it might take a year or two to implement. It would be a shame if our offense finally gets going but the defense ends up being the problem.

I hope they release/trade JC and give Colt a shot to be #2.

My conclusion is that the Redskins went from a bottom tier team to a middle tier. Middle tier teams have a chance to make the playoffs. The Eagles and Jets made it to conference champ game the last two years after being middle tier teams in the season. The middle tier is what makes the NFL great, so many teams have a chance. We are not a top tier team yet but going in the right direction.

I still think when you look at everything the team needs, the Redskins have numerous holes to fill. I maintain that the entire right side of the o-line is suspect (they essentially are going forward with the same players they had last year, except they've replaced Randy Thomas with Artis Hicks -- not necessarily an improvement). I agree with you that the switch to the 3-4 creates more holes than it fills. We now need to fill two ILB slots with a capable but aging and undersized London Fletcher and who knows who else. The OLB opposite Orakpo will also be something of an experiment. I'm still not sure we have a healthy, bona fide nose tackle on the roster either.

I agree they may have improved at head coach and quarterback, and that may make them a middle-tier team, but to me, that middle tier also includes teams like Pittsburgh, Denver, the Giants, Miami, Houston, Tennessee, and Atlanta. All teams that missed the playoffs. In other words, there are a lot more middle-tier teams that don't even make the post-season than there are cinderella middle-tier teams that catch fire once the playoffs start.

Also, the Redskins' window of opportunity for staying in that middle tier is about 3 years, based on McNabb's age. If the team reaches the playoffs, it will be because of a quick-fix band-aid, not a long-term foundation that's in place for years to come. That, combined with the fact that Shanahan is not some 40 year old coach closer to the beginning of his career than the end makes me worried that they'll begin making decisions that favor immediate gains versus long-term excellence. That's when you see teams reach for picks, trade future picks, and possibly overpay for free agents, all in a misguided belief that they're just "one player away" from a serious Super Bowl run.

I guess I'm in the minority, but I'd rather see the team lay the foundation for continued, year after year success based on sound player acquisition and a philosophy that's constantly looking toward the future and only making deals like the McNabb one when they feel everything else is already in place. They simply have too many holes to fill for me to be happy with that trade as the centerpiece of their rebuilding strategy. When the deal went down, a lot of people were hoping that it was the first step in what would be a larger rebuilding process here. We all hoped that Campbell would be traded and we'd move out of the 4th spot to stockpile picks and infuse the roster with young talent. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet, and I'm not sure it's going to.

Just my .02

[iwasdoinit]

I always hated Shanahan for backstabbing Reeves in Denver. I would have preferred Cowher or Gruden. I still hope we win, however. As far as McNabb, great talent, often injured. Start looking at his backup; that's who will be taking most of the snaps this season. The squandering of picks continues. Looks like Claussen will possibly slip past 37. The left tackle pick, however, was smart.

[boobiemiles]

If Mike trades haynesworth, and we take one step back as a defense, I bet you Vinny comes back, and we start thinking about Mike retiring in his second year as head coach.

[Atlass]

Wow, some of you guys are hopeless.

[redshirtguy#45]

Wow, some of you guys are hopeless.

to be fair to folks concerned... its been a long time since this team has done much. consider a SB winning coach coming in with a decent rb, former all pro qb, decent wr --> gibbs v2. not a parallel for sure, though i can see folks being worried.

it should be fair to say lets see how it goes this year before throwing stones at each other.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I'd rather see the team lay the foundation for continued, year after year success based on sound player acquisition and a philosophy that's constantly looking toward the future and only making deals like the McNabb one when they feel everything else is already in place. They simply have too many holes to fill for me to be happy with that trade as the centerpiece of their rebuilding strategy. When the deal went down, a lot of people were hoping that it was the first step in what would be a larger rebuilding process here. We all hoped that Campbell would be traded and we'd move out of the 4th spot to stockpile picks and infuse the roster with young talent. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet, and I'm not sure it's going to.

Just my .02

That's basically a summary of how I feel.

This team needed a najor rebuild, and instead traded good draft picks for a 34 year old QB.

[Mahons21]

That's basically a summary of how I feel.

This team needed a najor rebuild, and instead traded good draft picks for a 34 year old QB.

-They traded unproven commodities for a proven commodity, we'll see how it turns out. Most professional NFL analysts think the Redskins got the better part of the deal.

I'm curious if anyone can guess the team I'm about to describe without using names.

This team was in need of major rebuilding. They went out and spend a 1st rounder on a tackle. That same draft they used there 2nd rounder on a C, and another 2nd rounder on a DT. The team was working on drafting from the inside out. The following draft the team went out and got there QB in the 1st round, now that they had established the line the year prior. They spent there 2nd rounder on a DE, and third rounder on a DB, to give the D some help. The next year they went out and spent a first rounder on a WR to give there QB some help, the 2nd on a LB to continue shoring up the D, and a 3rd on a DT. The following season they gave there QB even more help drafting a WR in the first, as well as a RB in the first, used there 2nd on a LB and 3rd on a DB to continue adding pieces to there defense.

I'm assuming many would be pretty pleased if the Redskins drafted in a manner similar to that. Anyone know what team this is?

[MustangSteve]

That's basically a summary of how I feel.

This team needed a najor rebuild, and instead traded good draft picks for a 34 year old QB.
This team is far from a major rebuild. All we needed was real coaches, a real QB, a real O-line, and a tune up at other positions, and all of this has happened and we're still in the process of filling other positions.

[Rufus T Firefly]

-They traded unproven commodities for a proven commodity, we'll see how it turns out. Most professional NFL analysts think the Redskins got the better part of the deal.

I'm curious if anyone can guess the team I'm about to describe without using names.

This team was in need of major rebuilding. They went out and spend a 1st rounder on a tackle. That same draft they used there 2nd rounder on a C, and another 2nd rounder on a DT. The team was working on drafting from the inside out. The following draft the team went out and got there QB in the 1st round, now that they had established the line the year prior. They spent there 2nd rounder on a DE, and third rounder on a DB, to give the D some help. The next year they went out and spent a first rounder on a WR to give there QB some help, the 2nd on a LB to continue shoring up the D, and a 3rd on a DT. The following season they gave there QB even more help drafting a WR in the first, as well as a RB in the first, used there 2nd on a LB and 3rd on a DB to continue adding pieces to there defense.

I'm assuming many would be pretty pleased if the Redskins drafted in a manner similar to that. Anyone know what team this is?

Nope don't know off the top of my head and don't care enough to try to guess. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be something I would be against.

Of course, that's a 4 year plan, so I guess we acquired McNabb to win us a title when he's 37? Super.

[Rufus T Firefly]

This team is far from a major rebuild. All we needed was real coaches, a real QB, a real O-line, and a tune up at other positions, and all of this has happened and we're still in the process of filling other positions.

Sure. The defense was mediocre (10th in yardage, 18th in scoring, 32nd in turnovers) in spite of a surprising lack of injuries. That with several of it's best starters aging, not fitting the new scheme, or on their way out for contract issues.

The O-Line had two mediocre starters (that's the good part). No #1 WR or good running back. And a lousy kicking game.

Not to mention simply being 4-12. But I guess a pretty good QB and a few tweaks and we're Super Bowl bound.

[a778999]

The trade is so reminiscent of Jason Taylor, Deion Sanders, etc. Every year the fans are excited in the offseason and then claim they knew the trade would be a bust all along halfway into the season. Heck I remember two years ago a poll where the majority of voters claimed that POS Jason Taylor and Andre Carter would give us more than 20 sacks combined.

It's the same **** every year.

[Yeen80]

I do have some hope. But I havent heard anything about McNabb signing an extension. If he doesnt, this will be a monumental waste of a trade

[Wyvern]

It's been real hard these last couple of rounds -- watching the rest of the league stock up on new talent, while the Redskins sit on their hands and wait.

It's going to sting to see some of those 2010 draft 2nd rounders turning into very good players, just about the time McNabb considers hanging up his cleats.

That gets me wondering just how hard Shanahan/Allen were trying to obtain draft picks for Skins players who won't fit in our new play-schemes (Carter, McIntosh, etc.) or who find themselves replaced by recent trades (Campbell).

[jimster]

Sure. The defense was mediocre (10th in yardage, 18th in scoring, 32nd in turnovers) in spite of a surprising lack of injuries. That with several of it's best starters aging, not fitting the new scheme, or on their way out for contract issues.

The O-Line had two mediocre starters (that's the good part). No #1 WR or good running back. And a lousy kicking game.

Not to mention simply being 4-12. But I guess a pretty good QB and a few tweaks and we're Super Bowl bound.

apparently your opinion and those of experienced professionals differ.

[MustangSteve]

Sure. The defense was mediocre (10th in yardage, 18th in scoring, 32nd in turnovers) in spite of a surprising lack of injuries. That with several of it's best starters aging, not fitting the new scheme, or on their way out for contract issues.

The O-Line had two mediocre starters (that's the good part). No #1 WR or good running back. And a lousy kicking game.

Not to mention simply being 4-12. But I guess a pretty good QB and a few tweaks and we're Super Bowl bound.Being as bad as we were in the coaching, qb and o-line positions, we still could play toe to toe with the best teams in the nfl. We filled each of these weaknesses with not just other coaches or players, but with elite men who know how to win, and have played in the big games, SuperBowls and Conference Championships.

This was already a playoff team before Zorn brought us down , and this team now has a dayum good shot at making the playoffs again. If our defense can play as good as it's been, or even more aggressive, giving us some turnovers, then hail yea, we will have a shot at making the SuperBowl!

One of the wisest men in the world once said, "You Can Do It"! :ols:

[Mahons21]

Nope don't know off the top of my head and don't care enough to try to guess. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be something I would be against.
-It was the Detroit Lions of the first half of this decade


Of course, that's a 4 year plan, so I guess we acquired McNabb to win us a title when he's 37? Super.

Or we acquired him to keep us competitive while we retool some pieces, and to teach a young QB the ropes of the NFL.

[Mahons21]

The trade is so reminiscent of Jason Taylor, Deion Sanders, etc. Every year the fans are excited in the offseason and then claim they knew the trade would be a bust all along halfway into the season. Heck I remember two years ago a poll where the majority of voters claimed that POS Jason Taylor and Andre Carter would give us more than 20 sacks combined.

It's the same **** every year.

Except they're are some very large differences. We brought in a 3-4 OLB to become our RE, which in our scheme was the guy that protected the rush. Taylor wasn't suited to play this position by any stretch of the imagination. He didn't fit the scheme.

McNabb on the other hand fits the scheme Shanahan ran in Denver, which will most likely be similar to what we run here. A run first offense, that sets up the play-action bomb. McNabb has great deep ball accuracy, and still has the mobility to run a good roll-out. He fits perfectly.

[Oldfan]

McNabb on the other hand fits the scheme Shanahan ran in Denver, which will most likely be similar to what we run here. A run first offense, that sets up the play-action bomb. McNabb has great deep ball accuracy, and still has the mobility to run a good roll-out. He fits perfectly.

Who cares? We're off a 4 - 12 season and 31 teams just got younger and stronger than we did.

[chipwhich]

Who cares? We're off a 4 - 12 season and 31 teams just got younger and stronger than we did.

While I agree I hate losing draft picks...they got younger and stronger by 7 picks -vs- our 4? 3 net players? meh

[4skins23]

Concerned about what? Shanny destroying the team? McNabb winning? The fact that Shanny is "band-aiding" the team to win now instead of making a strong franchise? Nah, not my job. I'm just a fan. LOL.

[Yeen80]

Can you guys refresh my memory....where did our 3rd rounder from this year go?

[Oldfan]

Can you guys refresh my memory....where did our 3rd rounder from this year go?

Jeremy Jarmon

[LLandryistheshiz]

Can you guys refresh my memory....where did our 3rd rounder from this year go?

Jeremy Jarmon in the Supplemental Draft this past summer.

[Wyvern]

Just saw the latest Shanahan/Allen pick -- essentially a repeat of our annual picking of a "LB with potential" who may contribute to more depth at linebacker but more realistically just to special teams in his first year or two.

But this was a high 4th round pick -- almost a third rounder -- and probably our last quality pick in this draft. And the best the Skins could come up with is Perry Riley? If this this selection draw fans' scrutiny, it's because it deserves it.

Now I'm sure the Skins were picking off of a list -- but from my vantage point this seems like a strange pick when the general consensus was we needed OL and Safety help and there were still some good potential candidates out there.

[Yeen80]

Jeremy Jarmon

Ah right. I almost forgot about him. I havent heard his name in a while. Is his recovery going well?

[VaBeachRedskin]

Or we acquired him to keep us competitive while we retool some pieces, and to teach a young QB the ropes of the NFL.

What is the point of trying to stay competitive while rebuilding? And how does trading a 2nd and a 4th help us rebuild? If you want a veteran QB to mentor a young QB then you look towards free agency.

[Yeen80]

Anybody know the latest going on with the McNabb extension? I havent heard anything about it lately

[GeoLeo]

The answer all your concerns in two words; Kyle Shanahan.
Kyle Shanahan is not the answer. Nepotism is not going to help resolve any Skins' problem, probably will just add to the problems.

[KillaCam21]

The new regime is the same as the old regime. Dan Snyder is the puppetmaster.

Three 30 Year Old Running Backs, yet another 2nd rounder out the door and this time for a 33 year old QB who hasnt finished a season in over half a decade, and no obvious improvement on the defensive side despite having one of the worst run defenses in the league last season. Last year it was the oline, this year it'll be tackling. We have a soft team with more holes than swiss cheese and trading away our second rounder every year doesnt help at all (thank you jason taylor, tj duckett, probably a couple others that im forgetting ATM). As far as I can tell, the only thing this new squad (including the coaches and management) has going for it is reputation. As a skins fan I've seen that fail too many times to be optimistic. If they're still afloat 8 games in I might start to get optimistic about this team again.

[Loco Bob]

Kyle Shanahan is not the answer. Nepotism is not going to help resolve any Skins' problem, probably will just add to the problems.

Bulls eye. I hope nobody here believes that Mike came here to get back into coaching, to rebuild a team, to return the team to it's former glory. Mike came here for one reason only - to install Kyle as the next HC. Keep that thought in mind over the coming seasons. I figure after season three that Kyle will be appointed "Assistant Head Coach" or something like that. It is all about Kyle, not about the team.

[[[ghost]]]

What is the point of trying to stay competitive while rebuilding? And how does trading a 2nd and a 4th help us rebuild? If you want a veteran QB to mentor a young QB then you look towards free agency.

Because this is the NFL not the NHL or NBA. You don't have to completely suck during rebuilding. It's very common for teams to go from 4-12 or worse to playoff bound the next season. And vice versa too

[cmman848]

I think this new Regime deserves a season or two before we rush to judgement. I seriously doubt Shanny is 100% about Kyle-- I agree that it did play a role in him comming here, but if the offense is flat more than the first few games (which could be attributed to the "new system) , Mike will step in and adjust (maybe behind the scenes, but changes will be made). I think the plan is for Kyle to take over, but I think they all want to do whatever it takes to win.

Having said that, I did feel SLIGHT skepticism developing when I read this from an article RE: Gruden & Allen being fired from TB (See end of post for full) "...That wasn't nearly enough for the sons of owner Malcolm Glazer, who took their time before deciding they had seen enough of aging quarterbacks, mediocre drafts and a coach and general manager who often pinned the blame for poor finishes on injuries."
Now I think McNabb still has plenty in the tank and Shanny did win with Elway when he was older, but if we finish 6-10ish and hear "injure plagued season"........... My patience with the new regime will become pretty low. But right now, as of now, I think they have done a good job and I think they will be succesful. Hopefully next year, we get the real deal franchise QB to develop under Mcnabb and who can take over when he retires after a succesful run as a skin!

(Heres the link to the full article on Gruden & Allen
http://www.blackchristiannews.com/news/2009/01/tampa-bay-bucs-fire-jon-grudon-set-to-hire-raheem-morris.html)

[hitmandm]

];7490956']Because this is the NFL not the NHL or NBA. You don't have to completely suck during rebuilding. It's very common for teams to go from 4-12 or worse to playoff bound the next season. And vice versa too


Youre right. They usually draft franchise QBs...like Flacco, Ryan, Sanchise etc.

They dont draft top 10 LTs like Cleveland, Rams, Jacksonville