WP: Santana Moss received HGH from accused Canadian doctor, sources say

[JimmiJo]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052001590.html

Santana Moss received HGH from accused Canadian doctor, sources say

By Rick Maese and Barry Svrluga
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 20, 2010; 10:31 AM

Washington Redskins receiver Santana Moss was among the professional athletes who received human growth hormone from Canadian doctor Anthony Galea, according to two sources familiar with the investigation. On Tuesday, Galea was charged with smuggling and distributing HGH.

One source said that Moss was the player Galea's medical assistant, Mary Anne Catalano, was on her way to meet in Washington, when she was arrested at the U.S.-Canada border on Sept. 14, 2009, with banned substances, syringes and other medical equipment in her vehicle.

Moss would not discuss the matter at Redskins Park on Wednesday.

"I'll talk about football. I don't know about nothing else," Moss said. "I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

Click the link for full article...

[SonnyRules]

If true; a nice little 4 game suspension.

[Dan T.]

I love the quote

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

It is just chock full of double negatives.

[Hitman21ST]

If true; a nice little 4 game suspension.

Which would give Shanny good reason to put him in the slot when he gets back instead of the No.1 spot.

[Hail_Skinz]

If true; a nice little 4 game suspension.
I don't know if that will actually happen. He never actually recieved or consumed any banned substance (in this particular case anyway). It never made its way to him!

[The Full Monty]

I don't know if that will actually happen. He never actually recieved or consumed any banned substance (in this particular case anyway). It never made its way to him!
Interesting way of looking at it, and actually, good common sense :)

[Popeman38]

Good job Washington Post! Way to take a Buffalo News article, rehash the way it was written, and then publish it. Must be tired from all the investigative journalism required to publish this. :doh:

[JimmyConway]

I don't know if that will actually happen. He never actually recieved or consumed any banned substance (in this particular case anyway). It never made its way to him!

Exactly. From what I understand, the doctor's assistant getting caught saved Santana from himself. Looks like Santana will have to find his HGH from another source or heal au naturel.

[Zguy28]

I don't know if that will actually happen. He never actually recieved or consumed any banned substance (in this particular case anyway). It never made its way to him!This time. We don't know if this is the first time for this player.

And we still don't know for certain that is was Moss. I heard we're going to make a big trade move prior to the draft too...oh wait.

[darrelgreenie]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052001590.html

Santana Moss received HGH from accused Canadian doctor, sources say

By Rick Maese and Barry Svrluga
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 20, 2010; 10:31 AM

Washington Redskins receiver Santana Moss was among the professional athletes who received human growth hormone from Canadian doctor Anthony Galea, according to two sources familiar with the investigation. On Tuesday, Galea was charged with smuggling and distributing HGH.

One source said that Moss was the player Galea's medical assistant, Mary Anne Catalano, was on her way to meet in Washington, when she was arrested at the U.S.-Canada border on Sept. 14, 2009, with banned substances, syringes and other medical equipment in her vehicle.

Moss would not discuss the matter at Redskins Park on Wednesday.

"I'll talk about football. I don't know about nothing else," Moss said. "I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

Click the link for full article...

There is no need to rush to judgement here, based on the article there isn't a lot of evidence against Moss.


Santana Moss, a wide receiver for the NFL’s Washington Redskins, is one of the professional athletes who allegedly received treatment from a Toronto physician charged Tuesday with smuggling muscle-building drugs into the United States, according to sources close to the case............................................“A t this juncture, any of the persons who are alleged to have used these substances are considered witnesses, and not targets, of this investigation,” Hochul told The Buffalo News.............................
But at this point, federal prosecutors do not intend to file criminal charges against Moss or any other athlete who had dealings with the doctor. ...........................................
His lawyers, including Mark J. Mahoney of Buffalo, denied the allegations of wrongdoing against the doctor. They said he treated American athletes — including golfer Tiger Woods and baseball player Alex Rodriguez — but only to help them heal from injuries. Mahoney said the doctor never provided athletes with any illegal performance-enhancing treatments.


http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/20/1056021/nfl-name-emerges-in-doping-case.html

Until more evidence comes i don't see why we would assume that Moss would be suspended.

I can see it playing out already Moss and some other athletes will testify that they received treatment but not HGH, Galea will say that he never gave them HGH.

Galea will be charged with smuggling HGH if they can prove it but will certainly get tagged for practicing medicine without the proper authority:



“Despite the absence of such authorization ... Dr. Galea entered the United States from Canada numerous times from 2007 to September 2009 and worked here as a doctor providing medical services to numerous professional athletes, billed them for services and expenses, and sold medication to them. His billings to three of [the athletes] amounted to approximately $200,000,” the affidavit says.

http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/20/1056021/nfl-name-emerges-in-doping-case.html

Considering that Brian Cushing received a 4 game suspension for a POSITIVE test and Moss is only reported to have been a client of Galea one would think they're gonna need a whole lot more evidence to suspend Moss.

[Kindred]

I love the quote

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

It is just chock full of double negatives.

grammatically, doesn't it translate to "I have something to do with something about me"?

I ain't got nothing = not nothing = something
and vice versa, nothing that ain't = nothing that is not = something

[Hail_Skinz]

This time. We don't know if this is the first time for this player.

And we still don't know for certain that is was Moss. I heard we're going to make a big trade move prior to the draft too...oh wait.

Exactly! THIS TIME. We don't know what he did prior to this...and we don't know what he did after this scenario. He may be clean for all we know. He may even be dirty. If he DID get it from another source...I have no idea how long HGH stays in ones system. If he gets tested he may come out clean.

I don't see how the NFL can leverage suspensions against him or anyone else if he doesn't test positive.

[darrelgreenie]

If he's part of an active investigation in which he may be asked to testify is he even allowed to talk about it?

[LightningBuggs]

There is no need to rush to judgement here, based on the article there isn't a lot of evidence against Moss.


http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/20/1056021/nfl-name-emerges-in-doping-case.html

Until more evidence comes i don't see why we would assume that Moss would be suspended.

I can see it playing out already Moss and some other athletes will testify that they received treatment but not HGH, Galea will say that he never gave them HGH.

Galea will be charged with smuggling HGH if they can prove it but will certainly get tagged for practicing medicine without the proper authority:


http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/05/20/1056021/nfl-name-emerges-in-doping-case.html

Considering that Brian Cushing received a 4 game suspension for a POSITIVE test and Moss is only reported to have been a client of Galea one would think they're gonna need a whole lot more evidence to suspend Moss.

It doesn't need to be "proven". This looks bad for the NFL. Real bad. And if you tarnish the "shield", as they say, justice is served on you swiftly. His simple involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doc was arrested is enough grounds for a 4 game suspension.

I fully expect Goodell to drop the hammer on Moss quickly in this case.

[pvkeeper19]

I hope it's not true. If it is true, I want this guy off my team, ASAP.

[airs0ft3r]

PvKeeper- most players in the NFL reportedly use steroids or other banned substances. Santana Moss has been a solid, if inconsistent receiver who treats his teammates extremely well. He's a nice guy with lots of talent who wants to be back on that field as quickly as possible

[brianm23]

Moss said. "I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

This guy went to college?...lol



I'm not surprised one bit. I think there are many more that just don't get caught.





I hope it's not true. If it is true, I want this guy off my team, ASAP.

Why? I'm willing to be there are many more on the skins juicing just as much as any other NFL team.

[Hardcore Zornography]

I hope it's not true. If it is true, I want this guy off my team, ASAP.


You think he is the only guy on this team taking PEDs? Better rearrange your thinking.

You can hate on him for allegedly cheating. That's fine. He should get suspended if it's proven.

But in no way should he be cut for this. He is just 1 fish in the sea of NFL players who are on PEDs.

If you cut everyone who is a 1st time offender of PEDs, you wouldn't have a 32 team league right now. I would say you would be lucky to have 20 teams of straight edge players.

[HailYeah]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the NFL is teeming with HGH users. I'm pretty sure you couldn't throw a rock in to an NFL lockerroom and NOT hit an HGH user.

[jfr3ek]

he aint got nothing to do with nothing about him so he's good, right?...RIGHT!

[Iced Coffee]

We really didn't need this :beatdeadhorse:

[Park City Skins]

And here we go. Everybody's an expert and we'll see a **** load of evidence of that for awhile on this story. ESPN and the NFL network,(among others),should have all kinds of them on tv soon telling us all about the stuff. Well,at least they're not talking about big ol' what's his name for now.;)



And right about now,the folks at Google H.Q. have to be going "WTF is with all the HGH searches??????" :silly:

[Yeen80]

Lets just wait and see what happens. Probably much to do about nothing.

[AllAboutTheU]

Let's all remember we're in America, innocent until proven guilty.

[darrelgreenie]

It doesn't need to be "proven". This looks bad for the NFL. Real bad. And if you tarnish the "shield", as they say, justice is served on you swiftly. His simple involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doc was arrested is enough grounds for a 4 game suspension.

I fully expect Goodell to drop the hammer on Moss quickly in this case.

An as yet unproven link about a player that may have received treatment, the nature of said treatment remains unknown.

If they suspend Moss based on this alone the NFLPA will have a field day.

[DiscoBob]

grammatically, doesn't it translate to "I have something to do with something about me"?

I ain't got nothing = not nothing = something
and vice versa, nothing that ain't = nothing that is not = something

He's practicing for the grand jury....he can go back and claim that he did not commit perjury....

[DiscoBob]

Let's all remember we're in America, innocent until proven guilty.

....in a courthouse.....

I'm not saying we should trash him, but people overuse that saying all the time. Just because you can't be criminally convicted prior to a fair trail, doesn't have any impact on whether or not people should or shouldn't talk about it....

In addition, people often trot out the "he was found innocent" line in certain discussions as if the court is not fallible. When you are found innocent in court all that really means is that 12 people decided that there was not conclusive evidence about your guilt. That doesn't make you innocent...

[Skinsfan4life83]

Until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he used HGH(which really doesn't bother me at all), and didn't just recieve some other form of treatment, I say this is a non-issue. But as usual ES members will condemn the man without a shred of evidence.

[JimmiJo]

....in a courthouse.....

I'm not saying we should trash him, but people overuse that saying all the time. Just because you can't be criminally convicted prior to a fair trail, doesn't have any impact on whether or not people should or shouldn't talk about it....

In addition, people often trot out the "he was found innocent" line in certain discussions as if the court is not fallible. When you are found innocent in court all that really means is that 12 people decided that there was not conclusive evidence about your guilt. That doesn't make you innocent...

It is even more significant than what you suggest. This is the NFL, not a court. As such, the league can impose discipline without anything being 'proven.'

If the league looks into this (which they will), and determines that sufficient evidence exists to suggest Moss used HGH, they can and will suspend him.

[StillUnknown]

i see a meeting with Mr. Goodell in his future

when it comes to PED's, athletes in general have lost the benefit of the doubt. wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up with a 4 game suspension the way Goodell operates

[Blue Collar Skins]

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

:doh:

Really Santana? Didn't you go to college? Anyway, here's to hoping this is not an issue.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Which would give Shanny good reason to put him in the slot when he gets back instead of the No.1 spot.

I'll buy Moss in the slot, but however that happen's if it were to, who's your #1?

Presumably Thomas or, IMHO, the better of 08's two, Kelly. But are either ready to be thrown the extra responsibility of being the go to guy when it matters most?

Hail.

[JustAfan47]

I'll pass on this one.... Tana is in the spot light right now but so far he has done nothing "physically" wrong.

[brianm23]

.....but so far he has done nothing "physically" wrong.


Hasn't done much on the field either. :ols:

[JustAfan47]

Hasn't done much on the field either. :ols:

lol.....yup thats right!....That is why my clint is innocent!...There has not been enhancement in he play of the field. The proof is in the pudding folks!... I rest my case...... :D

[0mega]

I hope it's not true. If it is true, I want this guy off my team, ASAP.

Don't be naive.

I'd be shocked if a majority of the players in the NFL weren't on SOMETHING. They're just great at being able to stay ahead of the testing curve.

[Popeman38]

It is even more significant than what you suggest. This is the NFL, not a court. As such, the league can impose discipline without anything being 'proven.'

If the league looks into this (which they will), and determines that sufficient evidence exists to suggest Moss used HGH, they can and will suspend him.
Well, there is the issue with the CBA language pertaining to PEDs. This isn't a gray area like personal conduct.

[ECU-ALUM]

Well there goes Santana's shot at every being in the Tour De France.

[AllAboutTheU]

....in a courthouse.....

I'm not saying we should trash him, but people overuse that saying all the time. Just because you can't be criminally convicted prior to a fair trail, doesn't have any impact on whether or not people should or shouldn't talk about it....

In addition, people often trot out the "he was found innocent" line in certain discussions as if the court is not fallible. When you are found innocent in court all that really means is that 12 people decided that there was not conclusive evidence about your guilt. That doesn't make you innocent...


Yes it doesn't make you innocent but it does make you not guilty. All I'm saying is we should just let this whole situation play out before we jump to conclusions. Just because some secretary said Santana Moss was seeing Galea doesn't prove that he was buying HGH, and Moss hasn't failed a drug test yet so we can't say the guy is on PEDs unless it is proven.

[pvkeeper19]

Blah blah blah, yeah I'm sure lots of guys used banned substances in the NFL. None of them deserves to be on an NFL roster if he isn't going to respect the rules. Just because a guy wears our colors doesn't mean it's okay that he cheated. If Moss cheated, I don't want him on the team I root for. Steriod/HGH use is absolutely a black-and-white issue to me.

"Everybody else is doing it" is not an acceptable excuse for misconduct anywhere else in the world. Why should it be in the NFL?

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

his interview was painful to read.....bets are, IF the initial reports are accurate, he will be suspended for some time, probably in the 4 game area....

[JustAfan47]

Well there goes Santana's shot at every being in the Tour De France.

lol....i was just about to say something about Mr. Armstrong. :)

[MonkFan8]

If true, he's totally not worth having on our team. Dude drops easy passes and doesn't nearly have the speed/quickness he had years ago. Not the type of guy I'd like as a role model for our young receivers either. Maybe this is why we've been stocking up on vets?

[j0hnnyga]

Until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he used HGH(which really doesn't bother me at all), and didn't just recieve some other form of treatment, I say this is a non-issue. But as usual ES members will condemn the man without a shred of evidence.

my thoughts exactly.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

. Maybe this is why we've been stocking up on vets?

I may be way off base, time will tell, but I bet Galloway has a decent year....

[0mega]

Well, there is the issue with the CBA language pertaining to PEDs. This isn't a gray area like personal conduct.

Exactly.

[0mega]

Blah blah blah, yeah I'm sure lots of guys used banned substances in the NFL. None of them deserves to be on an NFL roster if he isn't going to respect the rules. Just because a guy wears our colors doesn't mean it's okay that he cheated. If Moss cheated, I don't want him on the team I root for. Steriod/HGH use is absolutely a black-and-white issue to me.

"Everybody else is doing it" is not an acceptable excuse for misconduct anywhere else in the world. Why should it be in the NFL?

Then you might as well stop watching football altogether.

[Burgold]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052001590.html

"I'll talk about football. I don't know about nothing else," Moss said. "I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

Click the link for full article...

After reading this quote from Moss and some from Portis in recent days I think we can safely conclude... the entire English dept at the University of Miami needs to be suspended or fired. I mean goodness gracious... these are college educated people?

[JimmiJo]

Well, there is the issue with the CBA language pertaining to PEDs. This isn't a gray area like personal conduct.

Which language are you referring to?

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Hopefully this won't linger too long and Goodell decides something quickly. I don't think they need evidence to suspend him, but hopefully the NFL ends up deciding not to and it gets resolved. Shocked? not one bit.
In my estimation, at least 30% or more of the NFL is on PED's especially if your not testing for it, come on give me a break.
I would still want him on our team, regardless.

[UK_HOG]

Perhaps if sport in America was actually interested in trying to stop drugs in sport they would punish the cheats with a 2 year ban for a first offence and a lifetime ban for a second offence rather than just pay lip service to the problem with a 4 game ban. A 2 year ban would make an athlete think twice about juicing. 4 weeks is more like a vacation not a punishment.

I just hope it's just press rumours that Santana is involved. There has been enough rubbish in the press this off-season about the skins, I hope this is just more of the same.

[SittingBull]

Harder penalties on drug use would probably be very hard to incorporate due to owners trying to stop it to protect their investments and the players union trying to stop it to protect their careers.

[HLF]

After reading this quote from Moss and some from Portis in recent days I think we can safely conclude... the entire English dept at the University of Miami needs to be suspended or fired. I mean goodness gracious... these are college educated people?

:ols: Why are you people shocked by this? There football players for crying out loud. Some of them care about how they sound but just cause they went to college doesnt mean there gonna talk like they graduated from Harvard. Hell, they could be mentally retarded for all I care as long as they score some damn touchdowns Im good.

:logo:

[rebornempowered]

Moss using Performance Enhancing Drugs?

He should be cleared of this accusation. His performance has been anything but enhanced the last few years.

[Destino]

Forget suspensions. Players caught using performance enhancing drugs should be forced to wear a caution orange jersey for the remainder of the season. That way fans and everyone else are always aware of who the cheater is and players to carry the weight of poor judgement. No one is going to sign a sponsorship deal with a guy sporting a scarlet letter for 16 games.



just cause they went to college doesnt mean there gonna talk like they graduated from Harvard.
I don't think people go to Harvard to learn how to string sentences together. In fact I'm fairly certain that unless you're a foreign national command of the English language is expected in order to be admitted in most cases.

[vainglory]

moss was trying to add an extra inch or two to compete with the young tall receivers

[vainglory]

maybe this is why the skins have been bringing in every receiver under the sun.......

[StillaCoupleBehind]

player A from Washington received HGH on August 12th.

court documents.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0518/galea2.pdf

[paloosa]

The source said that he asked to meet the doctor at a hotel in DC but it never said that he was give any treatment. All of this is being reported by JLC who knows nothing about the Redskins. His sources haven't been right since Vinny Cerrato was fired. So until they come out and say that he is guilty he is innocent. If they have a source then provide it. A "according to two sources familiar with the investigation" is not a creditable source. I could say that JLC is this or that "according to two sources familiar with the investigation" but that doesn't mean that what I say is credible. So why believe this moron?

[Duckus]

If true - it is sad. Not because he was taking drugs, but I would figure he would have been a lot better if using HGH.

$100 says this is true.

[BadKarma]

Typical WP garbage, grasping in an attempts to bash the Skins, I hope Snyder bans them from Training Camp.

[redskns21]

If it was used, I believe it was to treat injuries and not in a performance enhancing way, to get him on the field because Lord knows that there was nobody behind him on the depth chart who would scare anyone. Be that in 2007 or any year for that matter. If he gets suspended, it'll suck because I really see him thriving in this offense and with McNabb @ QB.

Moss is a good Redskin, if this ends up being true and the treatment was to be on the field, I can't say I'll lose that much respect for the man.

[brianm23]

player A from Washington received HGH on August 12th.

court documents.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0518/galea2.pdf


Also treated PGA athletes? Wow.

[U C S D SkinsFan]

If this is true, Moss should be embarrassed for being so mediocre.

[flexxskins]

Wow, it's unbelievable how many people here still pretend to be shocked that there are professional athletes who may not have taken advantage of the education part of their collegiate careers.

Yes yes he used double negatives. Yes yes he went to college.

Sheesh.

[Hail_Skins]

I'm amphibious, I can write with both hands!

[abdcskins]

If this is true, Moss should be embarrassed for being so mediocre.

That's what I thought.

*sigh* When it comes to sports and doping/cheating I am not surprised anymore. Thought Santana was better than that. Of course all speculation, but it doesn't look good for him.

[Shredmojo]

Goodell doesn't care about innocent or guilty. All it takes is to be accused to be suspended. It's absurd IMO, but I think Moss will be suspended

[anar-k21]

see there you have it..HGH is not a performance enhancing drug.. Santana Moss uses it and it dont help him catch the ball one bit:silly:

[fdarugar]

Moss using Performance Enhancing Drugs?

He should be cleared of this accusation. His performance has been anything but enhanced the last few years.

Pwnd. We should just cut him when he's suspended...no need to have him take a roster spot if he's suspended 4+ games.

[gutlead74]

needs to get his money back, cuz it didnt work

[anar-k21]

Pwnd. We should just cut him when he's suspended...no need to have him take a roster spot if he's suspended 4+ games.
that would be nice.. he's so inconsistant.. some times he's hot and catches everything....but theres those games where he cant catch nuthin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mrdoctor]

good
hopefully he will get a 3 game suspension and theyll put him as teh slot receiever. right where he should be. hes quick and perfect for it

[Mackdaddydean]

I don't know if that will actually happen. He never actually recieved or consumed any banned substance (in this particular case anyway). It never made its way to him!

Well I mean legally speaking you'd be right, but the NFL has its own set of rules, and I'd say even TRYING to obtain HGH, whether you actually get it or not, would be a punishable offense and Goodell would do something about it.

[Mackdaddydean]

Considering that Brian Cushing received a 4 game suspension for a POSITIVE test and Moss is only reported to have been a client of Galea one would think they're gonna need a whole lot more evidence to suspend Moss.


Cushing didn't test positive for HGH or any steroid. Just an unknown banned substance. There's a lot of non-steroid stuff on the list too.

[MartinC]

Pwnd. We should just cut him when he's suspended...no need to have him take a roster spot if he's suspended 4+ games.

I hope you are not serious about that. Moss may not be an elite receiver but he has been very productive as a Redskin in some underwhelming offenses. He has had a couple of thousand yard season including a franchise record for single season yardage back in 2005. Along with Cooley he has been our only consistent receiving threat.

Again I'm not suggesting Moss is a top 10 receiver but he is the best we have right now so cutting him sounds like a bad idea to me.

To change tack if he has been taking a banned substance then he should get what is coming Redskin or no Redskin.

The NFL needs to start getting serious with drug testing and teams need to stop turning a blind eye. If Moss was taking regular treatments to help heal quicker the teams medical staff must have known about it - if they did not know they should be REALLY pissed at Moss.

[Mackdaddydean]

....in a courthouse.....

I'm not saying we should trash him, but people overuse that saying all the time. Just because you can't be criminally convicted prior to a fair trail, doesn't have any impact on whether or not people should or shouldn't talk about it....

In addition, people often trot out the "he was found innocent" line in certain discussions as if the court is not fallible. When you are found innocent in court all that really means is that 12 people decided that there was not conclusive evidence about your guilt. That doesn't make you innocent...

Exactly. That is why there is no finding of "innocence." You can only be found "not guilty."

[Mackdaddydean]

"Everybody else is doing it" is not an acceptable excuse for misconduct anywhere else in the world. Why should it be in the NFL?

Correct. We don't justify bad behavior by pointing to OTHER bad behavior.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

What an idiot. If he did it to get better from an injury he'd be best served by coming out and saying that instead of this HORRIBLE posturing. It ain't got nuttin, nobody, ain't didn't do it blah blah...

I guess we know why the skins picked up Galloway for a 1yr deal. Maybe they saw this one coming and got a nice little insurance policy.

[fdarugar]

I hope you are not serious about that. Moss may not be an elite receiver but he has been very productive as a Redskin in some underwhelming offenses. He has had a couple of thousand yard season including a franchise record for single season yardage back in 2005. Along with Cooley he has been our only consistent receiving threat.

Again I'm not suggesting Moss is a top 10 receiver but he is the best we have right now so cutting him sounds like a bad idea to me.

To change tack if he has been taking a banned substance then he should get what is coming Redskin or no Redskin.

The NFL needs to start getting serious with drug testing and teams need to stop turning a blind eye. If Moss was taking regular treatments to help heal quicker the teams medical staff must have known about it - if they did not know they should be REALLY pissed at Moss.

No man Im def serious...the dude is on a major decline. 2005 was a long time ago...If Moss needs to take PEDs to put up a 900 yard season, he's pretty much done.

[MartinC]

No man Im def serious...the dude is on a major decline. 2005 was a long time ago...If Moss needs to take PEDs to put up a 900 yard season, he's pretty much done.

He is still the best we have and - suspension set aside - he has a QB who throws a great deep ball. Campbell used to miss him deep at least once a week - McNabb hits those and Moss goes back over 1,000 yards and adds another 3 or 4 TDs this year.

Moss can still get behind a defence.

If he misses 4 weeks that might go out of the window.

Time for Thomas and and Kelly to really step up.

[Runs with Scissors]

"I'll talk about football. I don't know about nothing else," Moss said. "I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

If I was accused of doing something I didn't do,I would be screaming it from the roof tops.I would be on the call in radio shows.Speaking to every reporter I could find.

The "I'll talk about football" just sounds like what the guilty people say,when they get caught.

[mbws]

No Test, No Case.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So, presumably he will be off HGH this year.

Which means he will actually be worse.

Damn.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Correct. We don't justify bad behavior by pointing to OTHER bad behavior.

I justify bad behavior by not giving a ****.

I really don't care if everyone on the team is juiced up like East German track stars in 1982.

[jnhay]

I don't like how a substance that helps players heal is actually looked down on. Sure, they make a lot of money, but these guys are also ruining their bodies with the constant punishment. I see nothing wrong with taking PEDs to treat injuries. This all said, I won't pretend like I know that much about them, but I'm assuming most players take them for injuries.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't like how a substance that helps players heal is actually looked down on. Sure, they make a lot of money, but these guys are also ruining their bodies with the constant punishment. I see nothing wrong with taking PEDs to treat injuries. This all said, I won't pretend like I know that much about them, but I'm assuming most players take them for injuries.

That's probably the best benefit of steroids too - until they eventually lead you to have terrible injuries. Too many people are trying to thread the needle here with some made up "intent" issue. Healing fast from injury IS a performance enhancement.

Frankly, I think it should all be legal and players make the choice that is best for them.

[jnhay]

That's probably the best benefit of steroids too - until they eventually lead you to have terrible injuries. Too many people are trying to thread the needle here with some made up "intent" issue. Healing fast from injury IS a performance enhancement.

Frankly, I think it should all be legal and players make the choice that is best for them.

Does HGH lead to terrible injuries? If Moss did it, he should be suspended, those are the rules. I'm not trying to make an excuse. I agree with you though, that it should be up to the athlete.

[Fat Stupid Loser]

I love the quote

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

It is just chock full of double negatives.

Yeah its pretty sad.

[Zazzaro703]

He is still the best we have and - suspension set aside - he has a QB who throws a great deep ball. Campbell used to miss him deep at least once a week - McNabb hits those and Moss goes back over 1,000 yards and adds another 3 or 4 TDs this year.

Moss can still get behind a defence.

If he misses 4 weeks that might go out of the window.

Time for Thomas and and Kelly to really step up.

Thats not even accounting for the numberous times he would be streaking down the sideline wide open but Jason went on thru his progressions because punishment from the defense was imminent.

[robotfire]

With his hamstring history, I always wondered...

[Long-Time-Fan]

Moss was the best we had,......
Should have traded him 2 years ago when we could have gotten something for him.
Currently he's just dead weight.And now (maybe) this too.Show him the door.

Unfortunately the NFL drug testing procedures are a joke and they have gotten away with it for years.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Which would give Shanny good reason to put him in the slot when he gets back instead of the No.1 spot.

Yea, as if Shanny is not aware that the NFL is riddled with HGH and steroids.

[pvkeeper19]

Then you might as well stop watching football altogether.
Or I can just expect that players who are caught cheating be punished to the fullest extent to which teams and the league are able.

I don't see what's wrong with wanting players who cheat out of the league. Do you not see a problem with a player using illegal substances to gain an advantage over other players who compete fairly and within the rules laid down and agreed to as a condition of employment in the NFL? If someone you work with lied and cheated to get ahead at your expense, wouldn't you be upset?

[angel2]

I don't know if that will actually happen. He never actually recieved or consumed any banned substance (in this particular case anyway). It never made its way to him!



Very good point, and Santana gets to ride another day. I really hope it is not true that he indulged in an illegal substance that is banned by the league. Daniels is right, you have to be smart about what you put in your body because you are responsible for it.

[angel2]

With his hamstring history, I always wondered...



What? I thought hamstring injuries were associated with not drinking enough fluids.

[braindx]

player A from Washington received HGH on August 12th.

court documents.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0518/galea2.pdf

Dude, did you even read that PDF?

Nowhere does it mention August 12th in relation to any of the witnesses or HGH given on a certain date.

None of the witnesses (2 current football players) said they knowingly received HGH. It's possible that this is true -- IF you tell your doc that you just want him to give you treatment and leave the details up to him. It gives you some deniability.

Also, Washington (as a city) is mentioned nowhere in this article although given the details Witness #1 is likely Moss.

Galea said he was doing knee injections for cartilage regrowth (and some contained HGH). It's likely that the players had HGH delivered for injury healing though.

[thebluefood]

I love the quote

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

It is just chock full of double negatives.
Wow! A QUADRUPLE NEGATIVE! This has to be a record. I guess they don't teach grammar at "The U"

[#1HIT]

This guy went to college?...lol

aRE YOU RACIST? WHAT IS THERE THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND? what, is the whole world supposed to speak english like you?



I'm not surprised one bit. I think there are many more that just don't get caught.






Why? I'm willing to be there are many more on the skins juicing just as much as any other NFL team.

[anar-k21]

Yea, as if Shanny is not aware that the NFL is riddled with HGH and steroids.
exactly when will people get over it?? this ruined baseball (well that and the boring pace of the game) but i just hope we dont have to talk about steroids evreyday instead of game wins and plays..

[Spearfeather]

I really hope this isn't true, as Moss is one of my favorite players on the team. If he was getting treatment from this doctor, but wasn't getting HGH, then he should have nothing to worry about.

Moss definately wasn't the first name to come to mind when I first heard the news.

[HailGreen28]

Seconding the "I hope Moss really wasn't getting anything illegal, or truly unknowingly if he was". :(

[Spearfeather]

No man Im def serious...the dude is on a major decline. 2005 was a long time ago...If Moss needs to take PEDs to put up a 900 yard season, he's pretty much done.

He also had a QB in 2005 who could hit him deep more than once every blue moon. I'm not following you on the " major decline " statement. He had a pretty good year in 2008. Moss is far from done.

[honejc]

why not let everyone take performance enhancing drugs, it'll make the playing field even that way

afterall if everyone is special NO ONE is...

duurrr duurrr

[anar-k21]

all im saying is back when i was younger...i did stupid stuff (im still stupid but ..) i used to smoke weed and work in the oil industry.... i smoked every day...and never failed a urine test..and thats over a 6 year period where you get drug tested all the time.

i had boss' that respected me and didnt want to lose my work ethic but knew what i did and would tell me "hey we got a drug test in a couple days ..so clean up"

same thing in sports..sometimes ya get caught but its nothing new to learn players are doing steroids

[AngloSackSon]

If evidence proves he received HGH, I am squarely with the cut him immediately crowd.

This would be a great chance for the new regime to announce a no nonsense stance on conduct. :2cents:

[McD5]

Imho, he sounds pretty guilty.

Agreeing to talk about football only today, screams of guilt.

If he wasn't guilty, he would have no problems answering questions about the topic.

Just come out and admit it, and take your medicine.(no pun intended)

[whiskey44]

gawd, who cares, wow....man i like how Moss just explodes onto the field all hulk like, and makes 80 tds per year, ya know, cuz hes taking all the performance enhancing drugs n stuff.....what a non story

[BayouBrave86]

Big deal, over half the league and probably more take PED's.

[anar-k21]

oh im glad you added the sarcasm whisky.. i was about to say.. 80 tds???? on what planet?? lol performance enhancers jeez ya'll get over it

[SittingBull]

If I'm not mistaken that quote about just wanting to talk football was taken before the news broke out that he was involved.

[DGREENHULK]

If true and Moss gets the 4 game suspension....Hello TO....

[Mackdaddydean]

I justify bad behavior by not giving a ****.

I really don't care if everyone on the team is juiced up like East German track stars in 1982.

I was just making a point. I actually agree with you. I say let 'em all do it and let's see how superhuman humans can become. See the most amazing feats of athletes ever!

[StillaCoupleBehind]

Dude, did you even read that PDF?

Nowhere does it mention August 12th in relation to any of the witnesses or HGH given on a certain date.

None of the witnesses (2 current football players) said they knowingly received HGH. It's possible that this is true -- IF you tell your doc that you just want him to give you treatment and leave the details up to him. It gives you some deniability.

Also, Washington (as a city) is mentioned nowhere in this article although given the details Witness #1 is likely Moss.

Galea said he was doing knee injections for cartilage regrowth (and some contained HGH). It's likely that the players had HGH delivered for injury healing though.
I never said that was in that pdf. That one simply states that at the time she was arrested she was entering the U.S. and headed to Washington to meet a professional football player with HGH in her possesion. The first PDF is the U.S. court documents, and has only the testimony of three witness who used his services and a basic statement by the woman. I don't believe Moss is one of the witnesses that they refer to in the Buffalo charges.

Player A met with Galea on August 12th for what was believed to be an HGH cocktail/vitamin drip.

The statement I referred to is in this pdf. This is from Canadien court documents where the woman gives more detailed statements about individual meetings on certain dates in certain cities. According to this there is also another player, "Player T" who is from Washington and received an Actovegin treatment/Vitamin Drip but not an HGH treatment on September 3rd.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0518/galea1.pdf

The Washington Post story is quoted as saying

"Washington Redskins receiver Santana Moss was among the professional athletes who received human growth hormone from Canadian doctor Anthony Galea, according to two sources familiar with the investigation"

According to my logic, if the Post story is accurate, that would mean that Santana is Player A and not Player T. Also, I feel that had he unknowingly been treated with HGH then when questioned he would have acknowledged that he felt he had been decieved by Dr. Galea rather then refusing to speak about it.

[DGREENHULK]

They just "teased" it on SC that the FEDS might decide to prosecute Moss....they are going to talk about it in a few if anybody cares....you can't always believe the hype when it comes to ESPN.....we all know that.

[McD5]

If I'm not mistaken that quote about just wanting to talk football was taken before the news broke out that he was involved.

Still suspicious, regardless of the timing.

If I asked you about some doctor you had never done anything with, you would immediately come out and deny it, and then answer any further questions about it.

He doesn't want to talk about it, because he has something to hide.

And I would rather not watch him lie for the next month, over and over. If he is guilty, just man up and admit it.

[Ned Flanders]

I say if he, or ANY player on the 'skins are using performance enhancing drugs and are caught, they should pay a stiff penalty. Just because a lot of players do it, doesn't make it right or acceptable. I am definitely surprised it was Moss, I was leaning towards Chris Samuels. Glad I was wrong.

Cutting Moss would hurt us, but to me it's like stealing from the league, if others are playing by the rules and he is not. Drug tests should be mandatory for every player in the league for 20+ games a year.

Sucks to be a Redskin today......

[DGREENHULK]

Ok Brian Kenny on SC just said the Feds have ruled out prosecuting ANY players on the list no link or proof of that of course but that is what is being reported. ....so if True at least Santana doesn't have that to worry about that headache.

[veteranskinsfan]

Out here on sports radio it is being reported that this doctor had 3 clients of notoriety-Santana Moss, Tiger Woods and A-Rod. Hmm....if he is found guilty Shanny should cut him. Barry Bonds found out that after taking some of these drugs his body gave him a boost for a while but at the end of his career his body broke down more. Now Moss may experience that same trend with his body breaking down with more nagging injuries.

[Blue Collar Skins]

Ok I admit it....it was me.

[shoefly72]

I hope it's not true. If it is true, I want this guy off my team, ASAP.

I don't know anymore than you do, but even if it was true I don't think it reflects negatively on Moss. If you'll recall he is coming back from an injury and surgery. While it's not technically legal for him to use HGH, I don't personally see anything morally or ethically wrong with using HGH to recover from an injury and get back to normal. It's not like he was turning himself into David Boston.

[Hunter_R]

...other players who compete fairly and within the rules ...
I'd be willing to be that's an incredibly small percentage. The problem for Moss, Cushing, Merriman, etc. is that they got caught

[AngloSackSon]

I don't personally see anything morally or ethically wrong with using HGH to recover from an injury and get back to normal.

I don't know where you are from, but I was taught as early as I can remember, that cheating is wrong. Period.

Using HGH is cheating. If Moss is guilty, he needs to be cut.

[Mad Hatter]

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

? I guess Hooked on Phonics didn't work for him...

I don't think there should be a suspension here, since it's just sources saying Santana bought HGH from this doctor and we haven't seen anything concrete. Even if he does, it can't be a 4-gamer like Brian Cushings', since the guy actually tested positive for something.

[Ashburn Dave]

I hope it's not true. If it is true, I want this guy off my team, ASAP.

I hope it's not true too but I don't agree about getting rid of him.

I'm one of those guys that believes roids and HGH are done by most athletes in all sports. There are millions of $'s for these athletes that are the best in their sport. My kids tell me about their friends that do them in high school just to make their teams. It just seem to be a part of society today and yesteryear.

These players are almost forced to take them just to be able to compete against the cheaters that do take them.

[jnhay]

I don't know where you are from, but I was taught as early as I can remember, that cheating is wrong. Period.

Using HGH is cheating. If Moss is guilty, he needs to be cut.

If it helped his knees get better, I don't think it's wrong. If he used it to just run faster or be strong, I'd consider that wrong. From all his interviews, he seems like a nice guy, so I hope he's not doing the latter.

[Ashburn Dave]

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

:doh:

Really Santana? Didn't you go to college? Anyway, here's to hoping this is not an issue.

He didn't go to college. He went to the U. :silly:

[Long-Time-Fan]

If he wasn't guilty he would have been very adamant to say that he didn't do HGH.

But by going with.........."I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."
Tells me all I need to know.

[pvkeeper19]

I don't know anymore than you do, but even if it was true I don't think it reflects negatively on Moss. If you'll recall he is coming back from an injury and surgery. While it's not technically legal for him to use HGH, I don't personally see anything morally or ethically wrong with using HGH to recover from an injury and get back to normal. It's not like he was turning himself into David Boston.
If the accusations are true, it absolutely reflects poorly on Moss. That would mean he has violated both US law and NFL rules. I see something ethically and morally wrong with intentionally violating rules set down by the federal government and by your employer.

Why a player cheats and violates laws isn't important. What matters is what happened, and if what happened was that Moss used HGH, he needs to be punished--and, in my opinion, removed from the team.

[Mooka]

Again, can the league actually punish Santana without a positive test?

There would have to be proof he used HGH and that seems unlikely.



Not sure what will come of this if anything other then some really bad press.

[WARPATH85]

You're out your Mother Truckin Mind!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NewCliche21]

The double-standards are insane on this board.

Going to the doctor was a really, really, REALLY stupid decision, and Moss is one of my favorite players. He should be suspended because of that dumbass choice, putting himself/the team/the league in this position, and maybe even using.

What a ****ing idiot. You just don't do stupid **** like that.

[NewCliche21]

I'd be willing to be that's an incredibly small percentage. The problem for Moss, Cushing, Merriman, etc. is that they got caught

No, the problem is that they used (supposedly).

A man is responsible for his own actions. Cheating because everyone else is doing it is still cheating.

[Horton_Predator48]

If he's guilty then he'll pay the price and move on. If not then move on.

[WARPATH85]

I don't know where you are from, but I was taught as early as I can remember, that cheating is wrong. Period.

Using HGH is cheating. If Moss is guilty, he needs to be cut.

You're out your Mother Truckin Mind!!!!

[pvkeeper19]

If it helped his knees get better, I don't think it's wrong.
Players who use it to "heal faster" are still in the wrong, because they are using an illegal substance to gain an unfair advantage over other players who operate within the rules. Those law-abiding players are essentially punished for following the rules.

[mcpingist]

It doesn't need to be "proven". This looks bad for the NFL. Real bad. And if you tarnish the "shield", as they say, justice is served on you swiftly. His simple involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doc was arrested is enough grounds for a 4 game suspension.

I fully expect Goodell to drop the hammer on Moss quickly in this case.


Nonsense. I'm not saying the NFL wouldn't try it, although I seriously doubt it. If they did suspend him with no more evidence than you cite, it would never stand up in court.

[pvkeeper19]

Again, can the league actually punish Santana without a positive test?

There would have to be proof he used HGH and that seems unlikely.



Not sure what will come of this if anything other then some really bad press.
An admission of guilt is sufficient for a suspension. That precedent was set with Rodney Harrison in 2007.

[WARPATH85]

If the accusations are true, it absolutely reflects poorly on Moss. That would mean he has violated both US law and NFL rules. I see something ethically and morally wrong with intentionally violating rules set down by the federal government and by your employer.

Why a player cheats and violates laws isn't important. What matters is what happened, and if what happened was that Moss used HGH, he needs to be punished--and, in my opinion, removed from the team.

Being in the military, I tell my soldiers not to do drugs. With that being said, have you done everything 100% PERFECT in your life? Have you lived the straight and narrow each and everyday? Have you ever taken stationary, pens, pencils, staples, staplers, or anything from your work place, that now sits in your home?

Don't be so quick to pass judgement on others!..So you never told a lie to family, friends, or your Superiors?

[Mooka]

An admission of guilt is sufficient for a suspension. That precedent was set with Rodney Harrison in 2007. Thanks. Good info.


So if police have something on Santana then he'll be in the same exact situation as Harrison and have to admit his guilt.

[honejc]

He didn't go to college. He went to the U. :silly:

correction -- he went to convict U

[skinsfan1523]

hmmm... a professional football player taking something that might help him make more money. What a surprise.....

[TotalRecall]

That's a bad sign. When he doesn't want to talk about it, that usually means he is hiding something and doesn't want to say something that he has to take back. For starters, there's obviously an association with the HGH doctor or he would have denied ever knowing him.

[WARPATH85]

Or I can just expect that players who are caught cheating be punished to the fullest extent to which teams and the league are able.

I don't see what's wrong with wanting players who cheat out of the league. Do you not see a problem with a player using illegal substances to gain an advantage over other players who compete fairly and within the rules laid down and agreed to as a condition of employment in the NFL? If someone you work with lied and cheated to get ahead at your expense, wouldn't you be upset?

What advantage did Moss have in Zorn's system?

[ExoDus84]

So many more players use HGH than what we know about. It's extremely common. If he tests positive, he should be suspended a few games. But all the holier-than-thou members pleading for his release need to get a grip.

[WorshiptheMonk81]

I think much more info/evidence is needed for anything to come of it, but Goodell is a disciplinary madman. My guess is a lot of talk but no action on Moss. Moss has been gimpy the last few years, but when he’s on , he’s pretty solid. I’m not sold on him playing 16 games with or without PED's. I’m waiting for the 08' kids to come through, and I’m a believer in that.

[The Diesel]

Players who use it to "heal faster" are still in the wrong, because they are using an illegal substance to gain an unfair advantage over other players who operate within the rules. Those law-abiding players are essentially punished for following the rules.


Exactly. There are players trying to take his job. If he's using something artificial and illegal (banned) to get him back on the field faster then he is cheating everyone trying to get up to his spot on the ladder. It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong.

But it's different when it's your player. Now everybody wants to make excuses. Ivan Carter, for instance, was embarrassingly ignorant of the above logic on WPL today. I don't even want to read the rationalization I know are being thrown out in this thread.

It's cheating. It's gaining an advantage that you are not supposed to have. It's wrong. Period. Santana Moss is a cheater.

[pvkeeper19]

Being in the military, I tell my soldiers not to do drugs. With that being said, have you done everything 100% PERFECT in your life? Have you lived the straight and narrow each and everyday? Have you ever taken stationary, pens, pencils, staples, staplers, or anything from your work place, that now sits in your home?

Don't be so quick to pass judgement on others!..So you never told a lie to family, friends, or your Superiors?
What do you do in the military when someone breaks a rule? Let him slide, because "nobody's perfect?"

HGH use is explicitly prohibited by the NFL, and the punishment for violating that rule is established: 4-game suspension. Additionally, it's a violation of federal law.

If this was a Cowboy we were talking about, everybody would be throwing the book at him.

[TotalRecall]

Nonsense. I'm not saying the NFL wouldn't try it, although I seriously doubt it. If they did suspend him with no more evidence than you cite, it would never stand up in court.

It doesn't have to stand-up in court. Roger Goodell has the final say. Appeals usually never work. All a player has to do is put the NFL in a bad light for a punishment to come down.

[SittingBull]

I don't see how Moss is violating any US law. The doctor might have by transporting it across borders. It is against NFL rules though and even if it was just to help rehab an injury it still gives him an unfair advantage if it allows him to heal from a specific injury faster than someone else with the same injury that's not using HGH.

[pvkeeper19]

I don't see how Moss is violating any US law. The doctor might have by transporting it across borders. It is against NFL rules though and even if it was just to help rehab an injury it still gives him an unfair advantage if it allows him to heal from a specific injury faster than someone else with the same injury that's not using HGH.
Using HGH without a prescription is illegal. So is using illegally obtained HGH.

More info:

http://www.eternalhgh.com/hgh/hgh-criminal.html

[NewCliche21]

Being in the military, I tell my soldiers not to do drugs. With that being said, have you done everything 100% PERFECT in your life? Have you lived the straight and narrow each and everyday? Have you ever taken stationary, pens, pencils, staples, staplers, or anything from your work place, that now sits in your home?

Don't be so quick to pass judgement on others!..So you never told a lie to family, friends, or your Superiors?

1) Thank you for your service, and I mean that in all sincerity. My father was in Vietnam and my grandfather in WWII. Army and what would have been Marines.

2) The popularity of committing an infraction in no way validates any of those infractions. What do you tell to children when they play games? Don't cheat. If five-year-olds are supposed to follow that rule, then why can't people six times their age follow it in order to make MILLIONS of dollars?

[TheBlueIndian]

I hope it is true and he gets suspended ...I lost any respect I had for him after that stupid penalty he got for his little "shine box" peformance agianst Cinci. What a punk.."now go get your shine box!"

[SAli457180]

I love the quote

"I ain't got nothing to do with nothing that ain't about me."

It is just chock full of double negatives.

I know I'm a little late, but that quote is just classic. :doh::doh:

[mcpingist]

It doesn't have to stand-up in court. Roger Goodell has the final say. Appeals usually never work. All a player has to do is put the NFL in a bad light for a punishment to come down.

Of course it does, if it goes to court. Goodell isn't God, even if he thinks he is. The union often sues to overturn suspensions, fines, etc they feel are unjust. Having said that, I think it looks bad for Moss. My original quote was in response to someone saying;

"It doesn't need to be "proven". This looks bad for the NFL. Real bad. And if you tarnish the "shield", as they say, justice is served on you swiftly. His simple involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doc was arrested is enough grounds for a 4 game suspension.
I fully expect Goodell to drop the hammer on Moss quickly in this case."


Look, I'm not defending Moss. However, this is still America and we still have the right to have the courts decide issues we can't come to agreement on. If, as the example above states, the only evidence against Moss is simply his involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doctor was arrested, that isn't sufficient to warrant a suspension, in my opinion. I suspect Goodell would agree. If he doesn't, I'm relatively certain the courts would, although you never know these days. The main point being: Goodell and the NFL can be sued by the NFLPA. Goodell does not have final say if the union decides to sue, the courts do. Unfortunately for Skins fans, I suspect there will be more evidence; likely enough to suspend Moss legitimately. If so, it all becomes moot.

[NewCliche21]

Of course it does, if it goes to court. Goodell isn't God, even if he thinks he is. The union often sues to overturn suspensions, fines, etc they feel are unjust. Having said that, I think it looks bad for Moss. My original quote was in response to someone saying;

"It doesn't need to be "proven". This looks bad for the NFL. Real bad. And if you tarnish the "shield", as they say, justice is served on you swiftly. His simple involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doc was arrested is enough grounds for a 4 game suspension.
I fully expect Goodell to drop the hammer on Moss quickly in this case."


Look, I'm not defending Moss. However, this is still America and we still have the right to have the courts decide issues we can't come to agreement on. If, as the example above states, the only evidence against Moss is simply his involvement with this doctor and the fact that the doctor was arrested, that isn't sufficient to warrant a suspension, in my opinion. I suspect Goodell would agree. If he doesn't, I'm relatively certain the courts would, although you never know these days. The main point being: Goodell and the NFL can be sued by the NFLPA. Goodell does not have final say if the union decides to sue, the courts do. Unfortunately for Skins fans, I suspect there will be more evidence; likely enough to suspend Moss legitimately. If so, it all becomes moot.

Sorry man, but no. Roethlisberger was suspended, and rightfully so, but there was nothing proven in court. Harrison had a very similar case in 2007.

Here's the point: The league is a business, not America. There are specific clauses in every contract and rules by which players must follow. If they don't, then they can be punished. Gooddell doesn't rule the world, but he does rule the NFL. Moss can be suspended, and he should be.

[thebluefood]

I guess I'm the only one who's more concerned about his grammar than his use of HGH.

[mcpingist]

Sorry man, but no. Roethlisberger was suspended, and rightfully so, but there was nothing proven in court. Harrison had a very similar case in 2007.

Here's the point: The league is a business, not America. There are specific clauses in every contract and rules by which players must follow. If they don't, then they can be punished. Gooddell doesn't rule the world, but he does rule the NFL. Moss can be suspended, and he should be.

You seem to think Goodell is autonomous. That is just not true. You're entirely missing the point here. You are right that the NFL doesn't have to prove anything in court before Goodell suspends a player. However, if they do suspend someone, the NFLPA CAN sue them and ask the court to invalidate the suspension. In those other cases you cite, the union chose not to sue, so nothing ever went to court. If they do sue though, the court decides whether the suspension stands or is reversed.

Here's a link to an example:
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-36014979_ITM

[SMU Redskin]

He cheated, he should be suspended. If it was Miles Austin, we'd all be calling for his head. Same rule applies to our guys.

[shoefly72]

So many more players use HGH than what we know about. It's extremely common. If he tests positive, he should be suspended a few games. But all the holier-than-thou members pleading for his release need to get a grip.

Exactly. He was using HGH to try and stay on the field and recover from an injury. A lot of people have said "well isn't that unfair to those who play by the rules and heal naturally?" I won't disagree with that, but how do we know he's not competing against people (like Rodney Harrison, Cushing, Merriman, etc) that are using PED's to gain an advantage? Plus what's the difference between what Moss is doing and a shot of cortisone? Isn't that technically a steroid?

IMO HGH should be legal if used to recover from injury and they should regulate it. Moss was using it as part of a treatment to keep him on the field, not to bulk up or be faster. Look at a guy like Shawn Springs who could never stay on the field because he was always nicked up, he gets a bad rap. Personally I'd rather have him use whatever's at his disposal (including HGH) to stay on the field as long as it's not adversely affecting him (HGH abuse has some bad side effects, but injecting at the site of the injury wouldn't be enough to induce this).

This article is old, but it's about somebody using HGH in a similar way that Moss was.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2574291


HGH: Performance enhancer or healer?


He was born Sharmon Shah and that is how he entered UCLA, where he went on to become two-time team MVP and rush for more than 3,000 yards. By the time he was drafted by the Miami Dolphins in 1996, he was Karim Abdul-Jabbar, a convert to Islam. Later, with his profile rising after leading the NFL in total touchdowns, he was sued by the basketball legend and fellow Bruin alumnus Kareem Abdul-Jabbar for the inconvenient similarity, and agreed to change his name again. His identity has evolved over time.
Kind of like his right knee.
When he was a boy, it was fine. But hip surgery at age 10 created a structural imbalance, and the pounding from football led to problems with the knee. At UCLA, he had knee surgery for the first time. With the Dolphins, he went under the knife again, with limited results. After five years in the NFL, all of the cartilage and half of the meniscus were missing, causing painful deformations in the joint. "It was pretty much bone on bone," he said.



That's when Abdul-Karim al-Jabbar, as the player ultimately became known, turned to human growth hormone. A Miami surgeon injected HGH directly into the compromised joint. Every other week for two months, al-Jabbar returned to the doctor's office, where more of the bio-synthetic fluid was pumped into the knee in an effort to re-grow the cartilage necessary for him to return to the field.


He says he had no ethical qualms with using the controversial substance.
"The bottom line is we get beat the hell up," said al-Jabbar, who shared his story with ESPN.com. "We need whatever's available to keep ourselves out there."


But many athletes such as al-Jabbar think of the drugs in distinct ways. One set (steroids) is known to build powerful muscle, while the other (growth hormone) is "more to recover from injury," he said. "I haven't heard of growth hormone giving you strength."


His impression has some support in the scientific community. Most of the research on HGH has been done on the elderly, not elite athletes, but studies have shown that while the drug might grow the size of a muscle, it is not associated with a spike in strength. In a 2004 review of the literature that was published in the American Journal of Sports Medicine and written as a guide for team doctors, the authors concluded that "there is no evidence that growth hormone supplementation will lead to an increase in performance."


Produced naturally by the anterior pituitary gland, at the base of the brain, growth hormone plays a major role in body growth by stimulating the liver and other tissues to produce insulin-like growth factor, or IGF-1. One of the chief actions of IGF-1 is that it stokes the creation of cartilage and bone, a benefit that has not gone unnoticed by athletes and orthopedists. Injected, synthetic HGH has the same effect.


"I've seen a whole spectrum from professional athletes in all sports, down to college and even high school players that have been on growth hormone," said Dr. Rick Delamarter, a Los Angeles spine surgeon and UCLA professor who has treated scores of big-name athletes. "I have seen the benefits of growth hormone post-operatively in recovering from surgery."

Delamarter said he does not prescribe growth hormone to his patients, as surgical rehabilitation is not one of three approved uses (short stature in children, AIDS wasting and adult Growth Hormone Deficiency) by the federal Department of Health and Human Services. Athletes get it through other means, often anti-aging doctors who focus on the third, controversial diagnosis as a rationale for prescribing the drug. But he does not discourage its use as he has not seen, in his anecdotal experience, a detrimental response to growth hormone. And recovery periods are sometimes cut in half.


"If the science proves that it's efficacious and safe in the post-operative recovery period," he said, "then I think it becomes a standard of care for sports medicine and surgeons."



Yet, Delamarter doesn't doubt that some athletes would abuse the drug in an attempt to gain a performance edge. If there's any crowd that subscribes to the notion that one shot is good so five must be great, it is elite athletes with million-dollar careers at stake.

[pvkeeper19]

Exactly. He was using HGH to try and stay on the field and recover from an injury. A lot of people have said "well isn't that unfair to those who play by the rules and heal naturally?" I won't disagree with that, but how do we know he's not competing against people (like Rodney Harrison, Cushing, Merriman, etc) that are using PED's to gain an advantage? Plus what's the difference between what Moss is doing and a shot of cortisone? Isn't that technically a steroid?
The difference is that what Moss allegedly did is illegal and prohibited by the NFL's banned substance policy.

I'm confused as to why so many of you are jumping to the defense of this behavior. Whether or not it "should" be allowed is irrelevant; there are laws and rules in place that prohibit players from using HGH for any purpose. If you want to argue that the rules should be changed, do that. But as we stand, using HGH is forbidden, and anyone who does it should be punished. Until the rules change, players must abide by them or face the consequences.

[Best Team Ever]

Who gives a ****....seriously 90% of u would do it anyway to keep a job paying millions of dollars. **** middle age non athlete middle age men r taking that **** anway

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

It really bothers me when people quickly forget and turn on you at the drop of a dime when "it" hits the fan. It really shows who's with you or against you. Moss has been nothing but professional as a Redskin, representing the team in exemplary fashion off and on the field.

And for those that forget what he has done for this team considering all the circumstances throughout his tenure here, his stats speak for themselves.
Moss since 2005.
349 catches 5027 yds. 27 Tds.

Avg. 69.8 catches per season, 1005 yds per season, and 5.4 TD's per season....He's produced. I'm Still a Moss Fan, and I think he can help us win.

[bedlamVR]

I think there is no way around this but Moss is going to be suspended for at least 4 games . IT is a damn shame because HGH is not really a performance enhancing compound ....

[SkindaNFC]

Steroids and hormones always seem to be perceived in a negative manner. The fact of the matter is Cortisone, a commonly used steroid to inhibit inflammation to prevent further tissue damage, yet it is condoned and actively used in every sports league. It would be hypocritical to ban people (moss) for using these substances to be used in this fashion, you may as well ban hydrocortizone then because it too can provide muscle-building/performance-enhancing effects at higher doses. Dr. Galea uses HGH, a peptide (protein) hormone, in the same manner which is locally and at very small doses(we're talking 1%> [Concentrations] here); it stimulates chemokines, cytokines, growth factors at the site of injury (he also uses plasma with high concentrations of platelets) to facilitate the healing process. This is a medical treatment not some closet roiding case! Using HGH locally at very minute doses not provide any performance enhancement-- for this you would need to administer it regularly and at much higher doses. The NFL would have almost certainly caught this. There is nothing wrong here with this except for the irresponsible media, they hear these words and spins them in a negative light thinking they have some new hot BALCO-like scandal. They scantly parallel each other, but are absolutely and completely different. BALCO = illegally distributing PEDs; Dr. Galea = World renown Doctor on the cutting edge of his profession that just got in trouble for illegally crossing a border with a drug.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

If Galea was as "world renowned" as you say, why is he having to cross the border illegally to get to his US patients?

[anar-k21]

Who gives a ****....seriously 90% of u would do it anyway to keep a job paying millions of dollars. **** middle age non athlete middle age men r taking that **** anway
Santana ... is that you man??? what up lol :silly:

[dockeryfan]

I think it's clear from his production on the field last year that he took absolutely no performance enhancing drugs.

In fact, that should be his argument to Goodell.

"Look. How could I suck so bad if I was juicing?"

[anar-k21]

oh no now im watching sports center and their talking about... "could this open the door for TO??" NOOOOOOOOOOOOO make it stop please make it stop

[Santana_89]

Reading the comments on another board on this topic. I came across what could be the motive behind his decision to seek treatment (in whatever form that may have been) from this doctor. Again this is just speculation.


05-21-2010, 02:21 AM #6 (http://www.thewarpath.net/702544-post6.html) (permalink (http://www.extremeskins.com/redskins-locker-room/36692-why-santana-moss-gets-free-pass.html#post702544)) Dirtbag359 (http://www.thewarpath.net/members/dirtbag359.html)
Pro Bowl


Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
HE HAD A TUMOR!!!! That's right, Moss had a tumor.
__________________
"Suit up!"
-Barney Stinson
http://www.thewarpath.net/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.thewarpath.net/images/buttons/quote.gif

http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/36692-why-santana-moss-gets-free-pass.html (http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/36692-why-santana-moss-gets-free-pass.html)

[coolbeans]

oh no now im watching sports center and their talking about... "could this open the door for TO??" NOOOOOOOOOOOOO make it stop please make it stop


Sorry but that would just be sweet justice. Watching skins fans root for and defend McNabb AND TO would just make for a priceless and memorable season. I can only imagine the countless hours spent bumping 2-3 year old threads! :ols::ols::ols:

[posse87]

I am a physician and I think the debate comes down to the definition of use by the NFL and Santana's intention. Short coarses or single local injections with HGH makes sense to me, to allow players and injuries to heal faster and get back on the field faster. IV injection or oral intake is a systemic therapy and is meant to make all muscles and soft tissue stronger and increase performance. If HGH is lumped in with the general PED's then local injection into muscle injury to promode healing should not be considered a PED, as it is a very short coarse to help with injury repair and does not improve performance on the field. I am certain this is what Romanowski meant by his comments, but he is not a good spokes person on the matter, just like Kavorkian was not a good spokes person for euthanasia. I would agree with the use of HGH in the above manner, but I am also not the rules commitee in the NFL.

All that being said, I am sure the NFL does not take these technicalities into consideration and additionally Moss will probably be in trouble because he was aquiring it illegally from a doctor who was not authorized to bring HGH into the US and does not have a liscence to practice in the US. I agree with Shannahans approach of allowing the process to play itself out, and if Moss was taking it systemically then he should be in trouble and will serve a suspension. I haven't seen any news to how he reportedly used it in the past and what his intention was to use it in the current instance. Use and intention are very important in this instance and the media has left that out of the discussion, but then again that doesn't suprise me.

[anar-k21]

Sorry but that would just be sweet justice. Watching skins fans root for and defend McNabb AND TO would just make for a priceless and memorable season. I can only imagine the countless hours spent bumping 2-3 year old threads! :ols::ols::ols:
oh you got that right!!!! lol face of the media:laugh:

[Rdskns2000]

PFT is reporting that another Redskin could be involved.

[angel2]

If Moss wanted to be smart about concealing his act, he would have vacationed somewhere in the remote parts of Canada and had his filled of HGH from Galea and gone on about his business. Saying he is guilty because he wanted to only talk football is not a fair judgment.

If he is questioned by the NFL and denies ever meeting with Galea, then things will turn back to normal. If he lies about his involvement and the NFL has proof that he is lying, Santana will be gone next season. Moss has given the Skins ammunition to cut him in 2011, if he is not being truthful.

[WARPATH85]

What do you do in the military when someone breaks a rule? Let him slide, because "nobody's perfect?"

HGH use is explicitly prohibited by the NFL, and the punishment for violating that rule is established: 4-game suspension. Additionally, it's a violation of federal law.

If this was a Cowboy we were talking about, everybody would be throwing the book at him.

I SEE YOU DODGED THE QUESTIONS!..ANSWER NOW!

We atleast investigate beofre we punish or jump to conclussions!

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!

[NewCliche21]

I SEE YOU DODGED THE QUESTIONS!..ANSWER NOW!

We atleast investigate beofre we punish or jump to conclussions!

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!

And to think that people are mocking Moss's ability to communicate in this thread. :doh:

The violation in itself is to conduct oneself in a way that is detrimental to the team or the league. Going to see the doctor and stirring all of this up is the violation of that rule. There is no investigation needed to make a suspension.

Stop making excuses for people just because you like them.

[WARPATH85]

1) Thank you for your service, and I mean that in all sincerity. My father was in Vietnam and my grandfather in WWII. Army and what would have been Marines.

2) The popularity of committing an infraction in no way validates any of those infractions. What do you tell to children when they play games? Don't cheat. If five-year-olds are supposed to follow that rule, then why can't people six times their age follow it in order to make MILLIONS of dollars?

Thank you !. I'm not suggesting , or approve of cheating. If you read some of these post, people are already trying to throw the guy to the wolves before anything can be investigated. Throw him off the team. Get real now! Do the investigation, and then enforce the justice.

[posse87]

Look....PED's are banned by the NFL. Local injections to facilitate healing does not enhance performance, therefore, in that situation it should not be considered a PED, but rather a theraputic drug. If it is banned as a PED and a theraputic drug then the case is black and white, but if it is banned only as a PED then one can make the argument that local soft tissue injections are theraputic and not to enhance performance. There has been no report on how he allegedly used it in the past and how he was intending to use it now. I suspect he was using it to help his recurrent hamstring strains heal faster to get back out on the field faster and help the team win. If he was injecting it intravenously or taking it orally then he clearly was using it as a PED and in violation of the rules. I don't know the exact language of the NFL rules and policies, but how he used it and why are clearly relevant to the situation.

[Fletch_Lives59]

Moss should ask for his money back if he did take PED's...

[Popeman38]

And to think that people are mocking Moss's ability to communicate in this thread. :doh:

The violation in itself is to conduct oneself in a way that is detrimental to the team or the league. Going to see the doctor and stirring all of this up is the violation of that rule. There is no investigation needed to make a suspension.

Stop making excuses for people just because you like them.WRONG. PEDs are specifically covered in the CBA. Meaning, there has to be legal proof that a player violated that portion of the CBA. Commish can not simply suspend Moss under the player conduct section when it pertains to PEDs. There is a process, and it must be followed. See the Williams' in Minny, they popped positive on a test and they still haven't served the suspensions yet. If the Commish could simply suspend them for "conduct detrimental", don't you think the league would have dropped the PED process and just gone that route? There is a process, and if the Commish suspends Moss for his "conduct detrimental" there will most likely be an immediate appeal to the courts, the suspension will be dismissed, and Moss will not miss a single game. Of course, all this hinges on Moss' ability to deny and no factual evidence that he actually used HGH (transactions, admissions, video....).

[pvkeeper19]

I SEE YOU DODGED THE QUESTIONS!..ANSWER NOW!

We atleast investigate beofre we punish or jump to conclussions!

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!
No, I've never stolen anything from my workplace or lied to my boss. I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. This is an issue of taking deliberate action that is prohibited by federal law and my NFL rules. Anyone who does that needs to get punished. It's that simple.

Also, I've been clear that IF Moss did what the reports say he did, he should be punished, and I wouldn't want him on the Redskins anymore. If he didn't do it, then leave the guy alone. But it looks, at this point, like he did it. I would recommend the same punishment regardless of what player or team we're talking about. I don't want cheaters on my team, and I don't think they have a place in the NFL. Yes, I know there are probably a lot of guys out there cheating. The best we can do is get rid of the ones we find.

[pvkeeper19]

WRONG. PEDs are specifically covered in the CBA. Meaning, there has to be legal proof that a player violated that portion of the CBA. Commish can not simply suspend Moss under the player conduct section when it pertains to PEDs. There is a process, and it must be followed. See the Williams' in Minny, they popped positive on a test and they still haven't served the suspensions yet. If the Commish could simply suspend them for "conduct detrimental", don't you think the league would have dropped the PED process and just gone that route? There is a process, and if the Commish suspends Moss for his "conduct detrimental" there will most likely be an immediate appeal to the courts, the suspension will be dismissed, and Moss will not miss a single game. Of course, all this hinges on Moss' ability to deny and no factual evidence that he actually used HGH (transactions, admissions, video....).
The Williams' suspension has not been served because it was (and still is) under appeal. Most recently, the suspensions have been upheld in Minnesota district court, but are still on hold due to the continuing appeals process.

So, yes, Roger Goodell can suspend players for taking banned substances.

[Popeman38]

The Williams' suspension has not been served because it was (and still is) under appeal. Most recently, the suspensions have been upheld in Minnesota district court, but are still on hold due to the continuing appeals process.

So, yes, Roger Goodell can suspend players for taking banned substances.Agreed. The Williams' FAILED a drug test. Moss has not failed a test, and is being presumed guilty based on speculation. Without proof, the Commish can not suspend Moss for PED use, and he can not suspend him for conduct because the allegations are directly related to a bargained contract. Meaning, to invoke a suspension there has to be proof (legal proof that will stand up in court) that a player violated the bargained section.

EDIT: In other words, if the final court decision on the Williams' case is that they did not violate the bargained section, the Commish will not be permitted to suspend them for conduct. Just as he will not be permitted to suspend Moss for conduct if there is no solid proof he took HGH. Absent legal evidence or a positive test, Moss will not be suspended for this.

[pvkeeper19]

Agreed. The Williams' FAILED a drug test. Moss has not failed a test, and is being presumed guilty based on speculation. Without proof, the Commish can not suspend Moss for PED use, and he can not suspend him for conduct because the allegations are directly related to a bargained contract. Meaning, to invoke a suspension there has to be proof (legal proof that will stand up in court) that a player violated the bargained section.
First of all, Moss isn't being presumed guilty by anyone but fans and media. They don't get a say in whether he gets suspended. Goodell does, and I have faith that he will make the right decision when the time comes. He has done so in the past.

Law enforcement is apparently looking at Moss as a witness. If, in his conversations regarding Galea, he admits to having used HGH, he'll be suspended, just like Rodney Harrison was (even tough Harrison never tested positive).

[NewCliche21]

People are missing this:

Moss can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team or the league. Associating with a doctor like that, without notifying your medical staff, and causing this stir is all to the detriment of the team.

[Popeman38]

People are missing this:

Moss can be suspended for conduct detrimental to the team or the league. Associating with a doctor like that, without notifying your medical staff, and causing this stir is all to the detriment of the team.
Not true. PEDs are covered in a specifically bargained section, and as such, any suspension must meet the legal requirements agreed to. If Moss were being linked to illegal drug dealers, he could be suspended for conduct. If Moss is suspended for conduct based on this investigation without admitted use or a positive test, Moss will immediately file a grievance/lawsuit and will not miss a day of the 2010 season. If this alleged activity was outside a specifically bargained section, then the Commish could use his judgment to suspend Moss. But since this is specifically alleged PED use, the Commish is bound by the bargained position (again, see the Williams case).

[NewCliche21]

Not true. PEDs are covered in a specifically bargained section, and as such, any suspension must meet the legal requirements agreed to. If Moss were being linked to illegal drug dealers, he could be suspended for conduct. If Moss is suspended for conduct based on this investigation without admitted use or a positive test, Moss will immediately file a grievance/lawsuit and will not miss a day of the 2010 season. If this alleged activity was outside a specifically bargained section, then the Commish could use his judgment to suspend Moss. But since this is specifically alleged PED use, the Commish is bound by the bargained position (again, see the Williams case).

. . . well then.

Looks like I have nothing more to say! :bunny:

[AngloSackSon]

but how he used it and why are clearly relevant to the situation.

No, these details are not relevant.

IF he DID use hGH, Moss is in clear violation of NFL directive. If he is guilty he's gonna be punished, and it is equivocating to argue the validity of said punishment.

[Fletch_Lives59]

suspend him for the whole season, whocares...I can live without his 70 catches 3 TD's....terrible

[wilburmarshall]

If true and Moss gets the 4 game suspension....Hello TO....

Ha-ha! It opens the door!

[wilburmarshall]

I am a physician and I think the debate comes down to the definition of use by the NFL and Santana's intention. Short coarses or single local injections with HGH makes sense to me, to allow players and injuries to heal faster and get back on the field faster. IV injection or oral intake is a systemic therapy and is meant to make all muscles and soft tissue stronger and increase performance. If HGH is lumped in with the general PED's then local injection into muscle injury to promode healing should not be considered a PED, as it is a very short coarse to help with injury repair and does not improve performance on the field. I am certain this is what Romanowski meant by his comments, but he is not a good spokes person on the matter, just like Kavorkian was not a good spokes person for euthanasia. I would agree with the use of HGH in the above manner, but I am also not the rules commitee in the NFL.

All that being said, I am sure the NFL does not take these technicalities into consideration and additionally Moss will probably be in trouble because he was aquiring it illegally from a doctor who was not authorized to bring HGH into the US and does not have a liscence to practice in the US. I agree with Shannahans approach of allowing the process to play itself out, and if Moss was taking it systemically then he should be in trouble and will serve a suspension. I haven't seen any news to how he reportedly used it in the past and what his intention was to use it in the current instance. Use and intention are very important in this instance and the media has left that out of the discussion, but then again that doesn't suprise me.
Love Old Crow...

[tone_dubbz]

I didn't think this was worthy of starting another post, especially about speculation so here it is:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/21/another-redskins-player-could-be-caught-up-in-galea-case/

Pretty vague, but still implies that someone else maybe involved.

[SkindaNFC]

b/c he's not licensed to practice in this Country. Medicine transcends borders (i.e. Doctors without borders -- check it out!). A lot of countries have strict regulations on the practice of medicine esppppppp the US, but the human body in one country is the same in another country! Think all those doctors in the Haiti Relief were licensed to practice there? Its a my personal belief that any doctor licensed in the US should be allowed to practice in Canada and vice versa. Our medical systems are becoming more congruent by the day. You probably couldn't fathom what doctors have to truly go through to obtain their licenses.

[brianm23]

WRONG. PEDs are specifically covered in the CBA. Meaning, there has to be legal proof that a player violated that portion of the CBA. Commish can not simply suspend Moss under the player conduct section when it pertains to PEDs. There is a process, and it must be followed. See the Williams' in Minny, they popped positive on a test and they still haven't served the suspensions yet. If the Commish could simply suspend them for "conduct detrimental", don't you think the league would have dropped the PED process and just gone that route? There is a process, and if the Commish suspends Moss for his "conduct detrimental" there will most likely be an immediate appeal to the courts, the suspension will be dismissed, and Moss will not miss a single game. Of course, all this hinges on Moss' ability to deny and no factual evidence that he actually used HGH (transactions, admissions, video....).

Not sure about that. Rodney Harrison didn't fail a test, yet he got suspended 4 games by the commish for PED usage.

[Popeman38]

Not sure about that. Rodney Harrison didn't fail a test, yet he got suspended 4 games by the commish for PED usage.Yes, because Rodney Harrison admitted to using HGH.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2999994

New England Patriots strong safety Rodney Harrison has been suspended for the first four regular-season games after violating the NFL's substance-abuse policy, the league said early Saturday.
The 34-year-old Harrison, suspended without pay, will be eligible to return to the Patriots' active roster following the team's Oct. 1 game against the Cincinnati Bengals. He acknowledged the suspension in a late Friday night conference call, admitting that he obtained human growth hormone but said that he had never taken steroids.



"I want to make it clear," Harrison said, "that never once did I take steroids. I did admit to the commissioner that I took a banned substance."
The league issued a statement late Friday night confirming that Harrison is suspended without pay for four games, effective immediately.
Harrison said that his actions stemmed from his desire to "accelerate the healing process" from his various injuries the past two seasons.
Like I said, absent an admission of guilt, evidence that removes any doubt, or a positive on a drug test, Moss can't be suspended.

[Laxpunk2006]

What do you do in the military when someone breaks a rule? Let him slide, because "nobody's perfect?"

HGH use is explicitly prohibited by the NFL, and the punishment for violating that rule is established: 4-game suspension. Additionally, it's a violation of federal law.

If this was a Cowboy we were talking about, everybody would be throwing the book at him.

If this were any other team no one would be defending him. No one wants Merriman because he's a juicer but it's okay for Moss? Whether it was to heal an injury or not it is still a competitive advantage. It is still illegal. I'm not saying we need to crucify him but he does deserve a suspension. Even if it isn't proven he can still be suspended under the personal conduct policy. Being inolved with a doctor illegally practicing medicine draws a shadow over the NFL. Big Ben didn't get charged and he got suspended. Same deal can happen with Moss.

I don't understand how anyone can try to defend him at his point (assuming this isn't a complete fabrication, which I don't believe it is). If he took hgh he cheated, end of story. Why he didn't has no bearing.

[NewCliche21]

If this were any other team no one would be defending him. No one wants Merriman because he's a juicer but it's okay for Moss? Whether it was to heal an injury or not it is still a competitive advantage. It is still illegal. I'm not saying we need to crucify him but he does deserve a suspension. Even if it isn't proven he can still be suspended under the personal conduct policy. Being inolved with a doctor illegally practicing medicine draws a shadow over the NFL. Big Ben didn't get charged and he got suspended. Same deal can happen with Moss.

I don't understand how anyone can try to defend him at his point (assuming this isn't a complete fabrication, which I don't believe it is). If he took hgh he cheated, end of story. Why he didn't has no bearing.

I am completely in agreement. Let's not burn him at the stake, but if he cheated, then he cheated, and he deserves the punishment.

[posse87]

No, these details are not relevant.

IF he DID use hGH, Moss is in clear violation of NFL directive. If he is guilty he's gonna be punished, and it is equivocating to argue the validity of said punishment.


That isn't true....localized injection of HGH is not in violation of the PED policy because it will not enhance performance it is used to heal from injury. It will not make him faster or stronger. It is not a systemic use. You should read my OP.

[Popeman38]

If this were any other team no one would be defending him. No one wants Merriman because he's a juicer but it's okay for Moss? Whether it was to heal an injury or not it is still a competitive advantage. It is still illegal. I'm not saying we need to crucify him but he does deserve a suspension. Even if it isn't proven he can still be suspended under the personal conduct policy. Being inolved with a doctor illegally practicing medicine draws a shadow over the NFL. Big Ben didn't get charged and he got suspended. Same deal can happen with Moss.

I don't understand how anyone can try to defend him at his point (assuming this isn't a complete fabrication, which I don't believe it is). If he took hgh he cheated, end of story. Why he didn't has no bearing.Bolded: WRONG PEDs are specifically bargained and as such, only when you meet the standard bargained for violating the PED provision can you be suspended. See the Williams' case in Minny (new ruling today):
We've obtained and digested the 11-page written opinion from Judge Gary Larson regarding his decision to extend a temporary injunction that prevents the implementation of four-game suspensions against Vikings defensive tackles Pat and Kevin Williams until their appeal is resolved.

Our first impression? It's highly unlikely that the Williamses will be suspended at any point in the 2010 season.They tested positive for a banned substance, and yet haven't served a suspension yet. And if the Fed Appellate court finds that they did not violate the bargained PED provision, they will not ever serve a suspension. And the Commish can't suspend them for violating the conduct clause either, because the entire world knows that he would be back dooring them for PEDs.

The same holds true for Moss. Without an admission to HGH use or a positive test/overwhelming legal evidence for HGH use, the league can't touch him. Because the entire world knows that he would be back dooring him for PEDs.

Moss will take the same route the Williams' did if the Commish tries to suspend him under the conduct policy, and he would have a much better case than they do, because there will be no evidence he broke any rule.

There is no bargained rape/sexual assault clause in the CBA, which allowed the Commish to suspend for repeated conduct issues. Moss has a squeaky clean image, so there is no history.

[Popeman38]

That isn't true....localized injection of HGH is not in violation of the PED policy because it will not enhance performance it is used to heal from injury. It will not make him faster or stronger. It is not a systemic use. You should read my OP.
The NFL makes no such distinction. Use of HGH, whether systemic or localized, is against the CBA. Admitted use/positive test is an automatic 4 game suspension.

[pvkeeper19]

The NFL makes no such distinction. Use of HGH, whether systemic or localized, is against the CBA. Admitted use/positive test is an automatic 4 game suspension.
Fact. The substance is banned, not the "performance enhancing" use of it. Besides, using it to return more quickly from injury would still qualify as enhancing performance, because it enables the body to do something faster than it would be able to do under normal circumstances.

[Laxpunk2006]

Bolded: WRONG PEDs are specifically bargained and as such, only when you meet the standard bargained for violating the PED provision can you be suspended. See the Williams' case in Minny (new ruling today):They tested positive for a banned substance, and yet haven't served a suspension yet. And if the Fed Appellate court finds that they did not violate the bargained PED provision, they will not ever serve a suspension. And the Commish can't suspend them for violating the conduct clause either, because the entire world knows that he would be back dooring them for PEDs.



You could be completely right, I'm not that familiar with all of the policies bargained by the Player's Union. However the difference is the substance the Williams took is not illegal. It is banned by the NFL but available in OTC supplements. Note that I did not say "Moss can be suspended under the personal conduct policy for taking HGH." So please before writing that I'm WRONG at least look at what I'm trying to say. Dr. Galea is not licensed to practice medicine in the United States. Therefore Moss is involved in a criminal activity. That is covered under the Personal Conduct Policy. There may be a specific clause somewhere blocking out this "loophole" and it's possible that the specific treatments Dr. Galea/Moss admit to doing will not fall under this category. We'll have to wait and see.

There is allegedly proof that Moss was treated by this doctor. There are allegedly payments made from Moss to Dr. Galea. Whether he was treated with HGH or not doesn't matter because the doctor was illegally practicing medicine in this country. That is how the NFL could use the Personal Conduct Policy. Suspend him not for possession/use of HGH but for his involvement in the illegal treatments.

Again I could be completely off base here I'm just trying to have a civlized dicussion about possibilities without shouting "Wrong!" at someone.

I'm not saying they will do this, but it is a possibility.

[posse87]

The NFL makes no such distinction. Use of HGH, whether systemic or localized, is against the CBA. Admitted use/positive test is an automatic 4 game suspension.


source? I looked for the official policy on the internet and could not find any official language.

[posse87]

Fact. The substance is banned, not the "performance enhancing" use of it. Besides, using it to return more quickly from injury would still qualify as enhancing performance, because it enables the body to do something faster than it would be able to do under normal circumstances.


not true...ped's are a term used to identify substances that improve performance above where they otherwise would be...in your definition antibiotics would be considered PED's. What you really mean to say is healing enhancer. Then Hyperbaric oxygen chmbers like TO uses should be considered PED's and surgeries to fix surgical issues should be considered PED's.

[pvkeeper19]

not true...ped's are a term used to identify substances that improve performance above where they otherwise would be...in your definition antibiotics would be considered PED's. What you really mean to say is healing enhancer. Then Hyperbaric oxygen chmbers like TO uses should be considered PED's and surgeries to fix surgical issues should be considered PED's.
However you choose to parse it, the fact remains that HGH use for ANY of the purposes we're talking about is both illegal in the United States and actively prohibited by the NFL.

By your definition, steroids would not be "performance enhancing drugs" either, because all they do is allow muscles to recover more quickly after exercise. So they should be allowed too, right?

[posse87]

However you choose to parse it, the fact remains that HGH use for ANY of the purposes we're talking about is both illegal in the United States and actively prohibited by the NFL.

By your definition, steroids would not be "performance enhancing drugs" either, because all they do is allow muscles to recover more quickly after exercise. So they should be allowed too, right?



Dude you need to check your facts we use it for many reasons. It can be prescribed and is legal in the US. A doctor can prescribe it for many reasons. As far as anabolic steroids go they allow muscle to grow bigger than they could otherwise without the substance and HGH is a PED if used systemically as well. Sorry, but you don't know enough of the science to discuss reasonably. Used locally HGH is a theraputic drug allowing muscle to heal itself faster not make them bigger.

[posse87]

However you choose to parse it, the fact remains that HGH use for ANY of the purposes we're talking about is both illegal in the United States and actively prohibited by the NFL.

By your definition, steroids would not be "performance enhancing drugs" either, because all they do is allow muscles to recover more quickly after exercise. So they should be allowed too, right?


Show me your source where HGH is prohibited for any use in the NFL I could not find the NFL's official policy.

[NewCliche21]

Dude you need to check your facts we use it for many reasons. It can be prescribed and is legal in the US. A doctor can prescribe it for many reasons. As far as anabolic steroids go they allow muscle to grow bigger than they could otherwise without the substance and HGH is a PED if used systemically as well. Sorry, but you don't know enough of the science to discuss reasonably. Used locally HGH is a theraputic drug allowing muscle to heal itself faster not make them bigger.

Sigh.

The science is not the question. The legality is not the question.

It's the judgment of Moss to do so, not disclose it, and not admit to it. We also don't know how it was used (if it were).

This is about the NFL, not the science. Cocaine can have good effects, too, but test positive for that and you're gone.

[pvkeeper19]

Dude you need to check your facts we use it for many reasons. It can be prescribed and is legal in the US. A doctor can prescribe it for many reasons.
Sorry, you're just wrong about that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20hgh-restrictions.html

So, please stop accusing me of ignorance. Before firing off comments on message boards, I do research so I don't sound like a jackass.


Used locally HGH is a theraputic drug allowing muscle to heal itself faster not make them bigger.
Regardless of whether the type of treatment you describe is legal (it's not), it is forbidden by the NFL's drug policy, which lists HGH as a banned substance.

EDIT - The banned substance list source:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14066951/NFL-Prohibited-Substances

[posse87]

Sigh.

The science is not the question. The legality is not the question.

It's the judgment of Moss to do so, not disclose it, and not admit to it. We also don't know how it was used (if it were).

This is about the NFL, not the science. Cocaine can have good effects, too, but test positive for that and you're gone.


Read my original post....I have said over and over that he could be suspended for the player misconduct policy if he was attempting to obtain it illegally or had previously obtained it illegally. I disagree that he used it as a PED if it was used to treat an injury by local injections. I have serios doubt he was trying to use it systemically as a PED. Moss doesn't strike me as that type of individual.

[posse87]

Sorry, you're just wrong about that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/20/sports/playmagazine/20hgh-restrictions.html

So, please stop accusing me of ignorance. Before firing off comments on message boards, I do research so I don't sound like a jackass.


Regardless of whether the type of treatment you describe is legal (it's not), it is forbidden by the NFL's drug policy, which lists HGH as a banned substance.

Your article says most uses and sites antiaging clinics...again you don't understand what you are talking about. The FDA is a suggestion committee. Doctors use drugs all the time off label and it is legal. The FDA does not have total control over how therapies are administed etc. Your article has no new or relevant info. I am a doc and know what sort of control the FDA has over this stuff, so stop quoting useless NY times articles.

[pvkeeper19]

Your article says most uses and sites antiaging clinics...again you don't understand what you are talking about. The FDA is a suggestion committee. Doctors use drugs all the time off label and it is legal. The FDA does not have total control over how therapies are administed etc. Your article has no new or relevant info. I am a doc and know what sort of control the FDA has over this stuff, so stop quoting useless NY times articles.
Are you kidding me??? Did you read the article? The very first sentence:

Unlike most drugs, human growth hormone can be prescribed only to treat illnesses for which it has been specifically approved by the Food and Drug Administration: primarily growth-hormone deficiency in children and adults and wasting syndrome in people who have AIDS.
Further reading:
http://www.thesage-speaks.com/hgh-legal-human-growth-hormone-us-laws/
http://www.hghhelp.info/hghlawsandregulations.php


Such injections are approved by the Federal Food and Drug Administration, as they pertain to treating certain conditions. Today, those conditions include human growth hormone deficiency; Turner's syndrome; chronic renal problems; intrauterine growth retardation; Prader Willi syndrome; height deficiencies which continue during and after puberty; and Cachexia. The usage of HGH injections to treat these conditions and problems is completely legal and approved.

At this point in time, the FDA has not approved HGH injections for any other medical or health problems. All the same, there are a number of pharmaceutical companies which believe human growth hormone can be used to help several other problems, such as chronic fatigue syndrome, obesity, and fibromyalgia. There are even those who believe human growth hormone can help not only with certain age related problems, but with the act of aging itself as well. Some also believe that it can act as an enhancer for athletes. However, currently, HGH is not approved for use in these endeavors.

...

To recap, HGH injections are legal if you have a legitimate prescription and if they are used to treat the medical conditions for which they have been approved. Selling or taking HGH without a prescription or if you do not have one of the approved conditions is illegal.

[posse87]

Are you kidding me??? Did you read the article? The very first sentence:

Further reading:
http://www.thesage-speaks.com/hgh-legal-human-growth-hormone-us-laws/
http://www.hghhelp.info/hghlawsandregulations.php


Again the FDA does not have total control over how physicians use drugs....go read about off label uses. It may not be covered by insurance but people can pay for it. No doctor in their right mind would precribe it to be taken as a PED and their medical ethics would certainly come into question, but to treat a chronic injury or wound would certainly be considered a use and not neglegance or malpractice. No I am not kidding the NY times and other media outlets often quote the FDA as guardians to how therapies and drugs are administered but many things are used and therapies perrformed as off label uses.

[pvkeeper19]

Again the FDA does not have total control over how physicians use drugs....go read about off label uses. It may not be covered by insurance but people can pay for it. No doctor in their right mind would precribe it to be taken as a PED and their medical ethics would certainly come into question, but to treat a chronic injury or wound would certainly be considered a use and not neglegance or malpractice. No I am not kidding the NY times and other media outlets often quote the FDA as guardians to how therapies and drugs are administered but many things are used and therapies perrformed as off label uses.
I understand that the FDA is not the end-all authority on drug use. Yes, I know off-label uses for many drugs are common--my mom even has a prescription like that. However, I've read multiple sources, some of which I've cited and excerpted for you, which indicate that there are federal laws which mandate that HGH use is illegal unless it follows FDA guidelines.

The only "evidence" I've seen to contradict my copious research is some guy on a message board claiming to be a doctor.

[posse87]

I understand that the FDA is not the end-all authority on drug use. Yes, I know off-label uses for many drugs are common--my mom even has a prescription like that. However, I've read multiple sources, some of which I've cited and excerpted for you, which indicate that there are federal laws which mandate that HGH use is illegal unless it follows FDA guidelines.

The only "evidence" I've seen to contradict my copious research is some guy on a message board claiming to be a doctor.


Look man, the only thing I can find about it specifically being illegal is use in anti aging medicine, even though it is still used by a lot of antiaging clinics. It would have to be on a case by case basis that they would find it illegal for other off label uses and I highly doubt any physician would be in trouble for using it to help a human being heal. As for your doubting me as being a physician....I ain't gonna send you me medical diploma, but if you look at my original posts I didn't act like some authority on the issue just offering some thinking outside the box to help put the pitch forks away asuming Moss used it to heal injuries. If he was using it systemically as a PED then he should suffer the consequences and be suspended. I use things all the time in my practice off label....lasers, botox, injectables, etc. They aren't FDA approved for the uses but they make sense and get results and are safe. HGH injected into an injury would be considered safe by most and if it gets good results then more power to them. The patient may have to pay for the prescription, but that is their perogative. HGH systemically would be considered negative to the patients health and is not responsible as a physician.

[CaliforniaSkin]

Steroids and hormones always seem to be perceived in a negative manner. The fact of the matter is Cortisone, a commonly used steroid to inhibit inflammation to prevent further tissue damage, yet it is condoned and actively used in every sports league. It would be hypocritical to ban people (moss) for using these substances to be used in this fashion, you may as well ban hydrocortizone then because it too can provide muscle-building/performance-enhancing effects at higher doses. Dr. Galea uses HGH, a peptide (protein) hormone, in the same manner which is locally and at very small doses(we're talking 1%> [Concentrations] here); it stimulates chemokines, cytokines, growth factors at the site of injury (he also uses plasma with high concentrations of platelets) to facilitate the healing process. This is a medical treatment not some closet roiding case! Using HGH locally at very minute doses not provide any performance enhancement-- for this you would need to administer it regularly and at much higher doses. The NFL would have almost certainly caught this. There is nothing wrong here with this except for the irresponsible media, they hear these words and spins them in a negative light thinking they have some new hot BALCO-like scandal. They scantly parallel each other, but are absolutely and completely different. BALCO = illegally distributing PEDs; Dr. Galea = World renown Doctor on the cutting edge of his profession that just got in trouble for illegally crossing a border with a drug.

Well, first of all, Galea is using it illegally and it is against the rules agreed to by the players in the CBA. Besides the "irresponsible media" there's the facts that if Moss took the drug, he did so illegally and knowingly violating the rules of the game. Period. I certainly think there's a pretty good argument that breaking the law and the rules isn't "nothing wrong."

Second, the NFL could not have caught HGH at any level because the only existing tests for HGH are blood tests which are not authorized under the CBA so given that it would be impossible for them to catch it, they would not have "almost certainly caught it."

Third, yes, cortisone is commonly used in the NFL and is a steroid but the only thing it has no more in common with anabolic steroids than it does with cholesterol which is also a steroid. "Steroid" is a technical designation for a compound with a specific 4 ring carbon structure. Comparing anabolic steroids to corticosteroids is a specious argument at best.

Fourth, HGH has not been accepted by the scientific and medical community as a beneficial medication for this type of usage. HGH is only approved by the FDA for deficiency treatments NOT the type of treatment allegedly undergone by Moss. Typically, the side effect risk for hormone therapy when used for anything other than deficiency remediation is high. We simply do not have enough data on HGH at this point to determine either its efficacy or risk.

Fifth, while I respect your right to consider Galea "world-renowned doctor on the cutting edge of his profession," many people would see him very differently. He was someone practicing medicine without a license (in the US) distributing unproven and illegal drugs. He didn't just "get in trouble for illegally crossing a border with a drug." He's been indicted for illegally practicing medicine, illegal transport of drugs including an attempt to defraud the US by misbranding medication. If true, he was knowingly violating the law for proft. Period.

Finally, you and I have absolutely no idea how much HGH Moss was using, nor his intentions. In reality, the scientific evidence on growth hormones is decidedly mixed and they may in fact hurt, not help, the athlete. You can argue that HGH shouldn't be banned by the NFL and/or that it should be approved for additional therapeutic usages. But it is banned by the NFL (with the agreement of the players) and it has not been approved by the FDA for such treatments. If the allegations are true, Moss knowingly violated the law and the rules, and the irresponsible party isn't the media for reporting his actions, but the guy who broke the rules (and the law).

[CaliforniaSkin]

Look man, the only thing I can find about it specifically being illegal is use in anti aging medicine, even though it is still used by a lot of antiaging clinics. It would have to be on a case by case basis that they would find it illegal for other off label uses and I highly doubt any physician would be in trouble for using it to help a human being heal. As for your doubting me as being a physician....I ain't gonna send you me medical diploma, but if you look at my original posts I didn't act like some authority on the issue just offering some thinking outside the box to help put the pitch forks away asuming Moss used it to heal injuries. If he was using it systemically as a PED then he should suffer the consequences and be suspended. I use things all the time in my practice off label....lasers, botox, injectables, etc. They aren't FDA approved for the uses but they make sense and get results and are safe. HGH injected into an injury would be considered safe by most and if it gets good results then more power to them. The patient may have to pay for the prescription, but that is their perogative. HGH systemically would be considered negative to the patients health and is not responsible as a physician.

Not to wade too much into the specifics, but Galea is not licensed to practice medicine in the US so he can't write a legal prescription, thus Moss, if he was taking the drug from Galea, was taking it illegally.

[pvkeeper19]

Look man, the only thing I can find about it specifically being illegal is use in anti aging medicine, even though it is still used by a lot of antiaging clinics. It would have to be on a case by case basis that they would find it illegal for other off label uses and I highly doubt any physician would be in trouble for using it to help a human being heal. As for your doubting me as being a physician....I ain't gonna send you me medical diploma, but if you look at my original posts I didn't act like some authority on the issue just offering some thinking outside the box to help put the pitch forks away asuming Moss used it to heal injuries. If he was using it systemically as a PED then he should suffer the consequences and be suspended. I use things all the time in my practice off label....lasers, botox, injectables, etc. They aren't FDA approved for the uses but they make sense and get results and are safe. HGH injected into an injury would be considered safe by most and if it gets good results then more power to them. The patient may have to pay for the prescription, but that is their perogative. HGH systemically would be considered negative to the patients health and is not responsible as a physician.
I'm going to say this one more time, as clearly as I can: Congress passed a law that says HGH use is only permissible when it follows very specific guidelines. Congress adopted the FDA guidelines for this law. Therefore, the FDA guidelines for HGH use are also federal law.

I understand that the FDA has no authority to legislate how a doctor can prescribe a drug, but the federal government can--and has, in this case. What you're saying is true of most drugs. They can legally be used for off-label purposes. However, HGH is not one of those drugs.

Whether the off-label uses for HGH are safe and medically justifiable is not the question, here. The point is moot, because using HGH for any purpose other than those indicated by the FDA (and adopted as law by Congress) is a crime.

[Laxpunk2006]

Not to wade too much into the specifics, but Galea is not licensed to practice medicine in the US so he can't write a legal prescription, thus Moss, if he was taking the drug from Galea, was taking it illegally.

Thank you I tried to state this earlier and no one seemed to notice. It doesn't matter how Moss used HGH. If he ever obtained it or was treated with it he broke the rules and the law. Any medication from Galea was illegal because he isn't licensed. I'm amazed that fans want to stretch the rules for our own players while tooting our own horn about how we have a "good lockerroom." A guy gets caught cheating and the fans run to his defense.

[Outlaw Torn]

Holy crap you guys are just talking in circles at this point. Let it goooooo. :D

[Hubbs]

Holy crap you guys are just talking in circles at this point. Let it goooooo. :D

You don't really pay attention to many threads around here, do you? :silly:

[Johns Bass]

this may be a rather insipid analogy, but I kind of think of it like running a red light when there is nobody around....Did you hurt anyone? No....Did you Beak the Rules?...Yeah, you did. I mean if the only one that saw you do it was a Cop, you could get busted and be guilty, right?

[Laxpunk2006]

this may be a rather insipid analogy, but I kind of think of it like running a red light when there is nobody around....Did you hurt anyone? No....Did you Beak the Rules?...Yeah, you did. I mean if the only one that saw you do it was a Cop, you could get busted and be guilty, right?

This analogy works if we're in a race/relay from point A to B and one of us is running red lights while the other is waiting for them to turn green.

Player A and B both have hamstring injuries and are competing for the last roster spot. Player A injects HGH to the area in an attempt to speed the recovery. Player B plays by the rules and doesn't. Player A heals faster than Player B. Competitive advantage? I think that is fairly obvious.

We can't say PED's regardless of the intention behind their usage are victimless because there are a very limited number of jobs. Being slow to recover from an injury can cost player's their career if they aren't an established player for their team. When some players use HGH to speed the process they are gaining an unfair advantage over these players and possibly winning a job over them through cheating.

[AngloSackSon]

This analogy works if we're in a race/relay from point A to B and one of us is running red lights while the other is waiting for them to turn green.

Well stated.

If he received treatments, the league isn't going base their decision to punish on whether or not the injections were local or systemic. If Moss took hGH, he deceived the league, and is going to miss 4 games.

[angel2]

Well, it looks as if Santana Moss (if he is indeed guilty) is going to be the poster child for legalizing HGH therapy whether he likes it or not.

The knee is a difficult area of the body to make a complete recovery and heal itself. The NFL will have to deal with this issue and not sweep it under the rug with a suspension. If Moss used the HGH therapy to hasten his complete recovery from knee surgery, I can't find him guilty with that mind set. If the league takes punitive action against players who use the drug and later down the road decides that they were short-sighted by not considering the benefits of HGH therapy - they could be the benefactor of many lawsuits.

A player cannot be condone for electing to seek out the best solution for his injury situation. The NFL is playing authority in an area that they refuse to accept that maybe their policy is not addressing the benefits of the healing process.

[polywog999]

We, the Washington Post, find the defendant Santana Moss... GUILTY!!!

[Kindred]

This analogy works if we're in a race/relay from point A to B and one of us is running red lights while the other is waiting for them to turn green.

Player A and B both have hamstring injuries and are competing for the last roster spot. Player A injects HGH to the area in an attempt to speed the recovery. Player B plays by the rules and doesn't. Player A heals faster than Player B. Competitive advantage? I think that is fairly obvious.

We can't say PED's regardless of the intention behind their usage are victimless because there are a very limited number of jobs. Being slow to recover from an injury can cost player's their career if they aren't an established player for their team. When some players use HGH to speed the process they are gaining an unfair advantage over these players and possibly winning a job over them through cheating.

Sorry, that analogy is retarded. Traffic laws are in place so you dont kill yourself and others (which running red lights can lead to). Moss's situation is whether he heals faster or slower (which doesnt kill him, or hurt anybody else).

Your victim-less example is a little dumb as well. So those players who have a natural ability to recover quickly or play through pain or have the best dr./rehab program are 'cheating' other players who recover slowly or naturally? I thought the best player performance-wise always won? Who cares who heals faster, as long as the best player (who's able to play) wins? If you had an on the job injury and couldnt work, and your company brought in somebody temporarily to replace you, would you be cheating that replacement out of work by recovering faster?

[CaliforniaSkin]

Well, it looks as if Santana Moss (if he is indeed guilty) is going to be the poster child for legalizing HGH therapy whether he likes it or not.

The knee is a difficult area of the body to make a complete recovery and heal itself. The NFL will have to deal with this issue and not sweep it under the rug with a suspension. If Moss used the HGH therapy to hasten his complete recovery from knee surgery, I can't find him guilty with that mind set. If the league takes punitive action against players who use the drug and later down the road decides that they were short-sighted by not considering the benefits of HGH therapy - they could be the benefactor of many lawsuits.

A player cannot be condone for electing to seek out the best solution for his injury situation. The NFL is playing authority in an area that they refuse to accept that maybe their policy is not addressing the benefits of the healing process.

Moss can't be the poster child for HGH unless the FDA legalizes it for non replacement therapeutic uses. While there are certainly some proponents and some preliminary evidence that suggests it has a legitimate medical use other than replacement therapy, it's FAR from the scientific or medical consensus that it is "the best solution."

This is NOT just the NFL; the drug, not to mention Actovegin, has simply not been scientifically shown to provide a worthwhile reward to risk for this type of treatment. Given that the drug cannot be legally used in the manner that Moss allegedly used it, and that they have a CBA outlawing it, the league has no possible legal liability.

[polywog999]

Well, it looks as if Santana Moss (if he is indeed guilty) is going to be the poster child for legalizing HGH therapy whether he likes it or not.

HGH, has adverse and permanently debilitating side effects. I cannot fathom that it would ever be considered a legitimate, legal treatment for anything except small muscles and wrinkled skin.

That being said... I do not believe that Santana Moss is guilty of what he stands accused of, until I see some hardcore evidence, or hear a confession out of HIS mouth.

America has very quickly become the land of the trial by smear.

[Laxpunk2006]

A player cannot be condone for electing to seek out the best solution for his injury situation. The NFL is playing authority in an area that they refuse to accept that maybe their policy is not addressing the benefits of the healing process.

The NFL isn't playing authority here. It's Fedeal law.


Sorry, that analogy is retarded. Traffic laws are in place so you dont kill yourself and others (which running red lights can lead to). Moss's situation is whether he heals faster or slower (which doesnt kill him, or hurt anybody else).

Your victim-less example is a little dumb as well. So those players who have a natural ability to recover quickly or play through pain or have the best dr./rehab program are 'cheating' other players who recover slowly or naturally? I thought the best player performance-wise always won? Who cares who heals faster, as long as the best player (who's able to play) wins? If you had an on the job injury and couldnt work, and your company brought in somebody temporarily to replace you, would you be cheating that replacement out of work by recovering faster?

Sorry if that analogy was "retarded" I was just expanding on another poster's idea. The point of the red light analogy was suppose to be a red light with no one else around. Obviously we've all been at a red light before without another car in sight. It still doesn't mean you can legally run it.

I'm sorry you don't like my other analogy. The comparison of a regular workplace to the NFL doesn't work. Very few of us work in a field that is as competitive as the NFL. It isn't commonplace for us to have challengers every offseason competing for our jobs.

I never said those who recover faster naturally are cheating the others. This is a variable that can't be held constant as everyone's body is different. Those injecting a banned and illegal substance with life threatening side effects are.

Where are some of you guys when players are getting popped for weed or other recreational drugs? "Sorry Mr. Goodell I only smoke pot when my tummy hurts!" How or why they used is completely irrelevant.

The fact is we don't know exactly how Santana Moss was using HGH and we probably never will. I'm not exactly inclined to believe a cheating athlete after he's been caught.

The rule isn't that players can't use HGH to build muscle (which is part of the recovery process), it's that they can't use it. The federal law says they cannot possess it. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about this. If he is found to have ever possessed it through this investigation he has to be suspended for breaking the law.

[angel2]

Moss can't be the poster child for HGH unless the FDA legalizes it for non replacement therapeutic uses. While there are certainly some proponents and some preliminary evidence that suggests it has a legitimate medical use other than replacement therapy, it's FAR from the scientific or medical consensus that it is "the best solution."

This is NOT just the NFL; the drug, not to mention Actovegin, has simply not been scientifically shown to provide a worthwhile reward to risk for this type of treatment. Given that the drug cannot be legally used in the manner that Moss allegedly used it, and that they have a CBA outlawing it, the league has no possible legal liability.



But, suppose the FDA reverses itself and says that HGH does aid in the treatment of Knee and other injuries and gives its stamp of approval, say a year from now. In my opinion Moss is doing the right thing by not admitting to anything at this time.

The drug industry makes a killing on remedies that have many side effects. An athlete, along with the everyday Joe Blow, should have the option of making use of all possible treatments available to them. The scientific community is way too busy contradicting itself to the point where its difficult to make a wise decision when it comes to making up ones mind about treatments. I am not arguing your counter response to me, not at all, but I do think we have to give the onus to the patient who has to make a choice between whats best for his situation which may not be accepted by the scientific community. Some peoples bodies respond to the oft treatments better than the approved sanctions of the FDA.

I realize that the FDA is here to help us from the snake oil community and others that prey on our ignorance of medical matters. But, a one or two time HGH Therapy can't be that harmful. Or is it?

[angel2]

The NFL isn't playing authority here. It's Fedeal law.



You are right and I stand corrected. But my point is that the NFL has a product (players) that they put too many restrictions on because they deem them bad for ones health. I am speaking specifically on the HGH Therapy issue. I don't think the NFL has really given any thought to the idea that maybe some FDA banned drugs could have some merit.

[angel2]

HGH, has adverse and permanently debilitating side effects. I cannot fathom that it would ever be considered a legitimate, legal treatment for anything except small muscles and wrinkled skin.

That being said... I do not believe that Santana Moss is guilty of what he stands accused of, until I see some hardcore evidence, or hear a confession out of HIS mouth.

America has very quickly become the land of the trial by smear.



Are you suggesting that a one or two use of a HGH treatment to hasten recovery from knee surgery can have an adverse or debilitating side effect?

[polywog999]

Are you suggesting that a one or two use of a HGH treatment to hasten recovery from knee surgery can have an adverse or debilitating side effect?
Injectable HGH is not like the natural HGH that you make inside of your body... and since no one really knows the answer, then yes.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/growth-hormone/ha00030

[Laxpunk2006]

You are right and I stand corrected. But my point is that the NFL has a product (players) that they put too many restrictions on because they deem them bad for ones health. I am speaking specifically on the HGH Therapy issue. I don't think the NFL has really given any thought to the idea that maybe some FDA banned drugs could have some merit.

I think it's something the NFL might consider for localized treatment as is being claimed in this case but the legal issues prevent it from even getting that far. If it's illegal to possess then the NFL doesn't really get a chance to make their own ruling on it.

[polywog999]

I think it's something the NFL might consider for localized treatment as is being claimed in this case but the legal issues prevent it from even getting that far. If it's illegal to possess then the NFL doesn't really get a chance to make their own ruling on it.
HGH would have to be approved first. In the mad rush to crown it a wonder drug, no one bothered to check Its effectiveness

[angel2]

HGH would have to be approved first. In the mad rush to crown it a wonder drug, no one bothered to check Its effectiveness



But, it must have had some success or am I buying into the unproven hype? Is Galea a good salesman? Something is askew here. Its legal in Canada but not here in the states? Some players think its an advantage enough to take a risk in getting caught by the NFL.

[polywog999]

But, it must have had some success or am I buying into the unproven hype? Is Galea a good salesman? Something is askew here. Its legal in Canada but not here in the states? Some players think its an advantage enough to take a risk in getting caught by the NFL.
The United States has very high and strict standards. HGH has not been studied enough to warrant being approved ANYWHERE. Yes, a lot of people are buying into the hype. Does it work? I don't know... maybe.

Edit: You cannot assume that players are putting there own health interest first.
It would be fair to say that in the absence of dangerous substances, the great game of football would continue forth, unabated.

[Wyvern]

Hmmm. Now that Moss is being implicated with HGH usage and with possible NFL penalities looming -- it's surprising me to see how many in ES want an assessment of the 'real' danger of HGH and whether NFL policy should be so restrictive. We really do support our players, don't we?

However, I'm supporting the NFL on this one. My take is that an NFL rule is in place (odd to see how that was also being debated). And NFL rules in place need to be honored -- be they about gambling, off-field criminal activity, or use of illegal drugs. Maybe down the road, the NFL will change the rules -- but it's what's in place at the time that matters. So if it can be proven that Moss "crossed the line", my take is that he'll deserve whatever the NFL metes out.

As for the gray areas around HGH -- there are plenty. I tend to believe that American health authorities and the NFL took their stances simply to prevent the abusive use of HGH. After all, there's a lot of 'lore' swirling around HGH and it may take a while to sort out just how effective and approvable HGH is. Complicating this issue is that results of studies on long-term benefits and side effects involved with sustained moderate usage of HGH aren't sufficiently conclusive.

However, the lack of conclusive test results hasn't prevented various groups from taking the results they think apply to the situation and running with them. Frankly, this kind of "values/risks" debate is being fought everyday on everything from vitamins, to herbal mixes, to more the sophisticated usage of chemicals and hormone-based compounds. So we see lot of 'lore' being put out there, both good and bad. 'Good lore' creates consumer demand; 'bad lore' creates rules for consumer protection.

To be fair, there ARE side effects recorded on short-term, medically-supervised treatments involving HGH. But if you ever look at the back of any Over-The-Counter medicine you take, you'll see a lot warnings of bad things that could happen. This goes double, if the medicine is only available by precription. Essentially, there will always be some people who react adversely to courses of medicine; and even in short term medically supervised treatments, this could crop up. That gets added to the lore.

But we also need to realize HGH isn't a nutritional supplement where consumers are on an honor system on how much and how frequently they'll dose themselves.

Rather, from what I'm reading, it's one of the courses that doctors can prescribe for specific medical conditions -- one of many tactics available depending on the country where the treatment is taking place. (...Then again, so was Laetrile.) So some treatments are allowed in some countries, some are not.

:poke: The Point: While the effects of medically administered moderate HGH usage (either short term, or long term) are still being studied -- there are clear cases of what happens with self-administered abusive use of HGH. Here's where the horror stories of 'cro-Magnon man,' liver disease, etc. are generated. There ARE risks to any over-usage, especially in unauthorized circumstances with no real safeguards.

And I suspect this very risk was the basis for the conservative approach adopted by American health authorities and the NFL. Perhaps in time that will change, and regulations around HGH will adapt as more information is uncoved. Even so, this wouldn't apply to Moss's current situation, should allegations against him be proven.

[JustAfan47]

I dont understand. Moss and Brady's name where reported in the buff. article but some how all i see and read about is just Moss!. Espn, PFT, SI, ect. If I didn't read that Buff. article I would swear it's only Moss who's been put out there. I still dont understand out of all the cities and players in those cities it's still only about Washington and the Moss connection!. What happened to Brady's name?. Did the world forget about the "Golden boy"?

[Kindred]

The NFL isn't playing authority here. It's Fedeal law.



Sorry if that analogy was "retarded" I was just expanding on another poster's idea. The point of the red light analogy was suppose to be a red light with no one else around. Obviously we've all been at a red light before without another car in sight. It still doesn't mean you can legally run it.

I'm sorry you don't like my other analogy. The comparison of a regular workplace to the NFL doesn't work. Very few of us work in a field that is as competitive as the NFL. It isn't commonplace for us to have challengers every offseason competing for our jobs.

I never said those who recover faster naturally are cheating the others. This is a variable that can't be held constant as everyone's body is different. Those injecting a banned and illegal substance with life threatening side effects are.

Where are some of you guys when players are getting popped for weed or other recreational drugs? "Sorry Mr. Goodell I only smoke pot when my tummy hurts!" How or why they used is completely irrelevant.

The fact is we don't know exactly how Santana Moss was using HGH and we probably never will. I'm not exactly inclined to believe a cheating athlete after he's been caught.

The rule isn't that players can't use HGH to build muscle (which is part of the recovery process), it's that they can't use it. The federal law says they cannot possess it. I don't see what is so hard to grasp about this. If he is found to have ever possessed it through this investigation he has to be suspended for breaking the law.


I'm pretty sure all the idiots that run red lights and end up killing somebody thought nobody else was around when they ran them. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/leedogg/Emoticons/retarded2.gif The point is, you end up killing people when you break that law so it's not comparable.

Take HGH out of the equation completely, call it some new experimental treatment. Competition is about actually COMPETING on the field. Claiming that athletes who recover faster from injuries because of whatever reason is an unfair advantage to other players is utter nonsense. If the other player is a better player and you recover quickly, it really doesnt matter, they're still going to play. If you're the better player and you recover quickly, well you get your old spot back and the other player had their chance to prove they were better.

[angel2]

The United States has very high and strict standards. HGH has not been studied enough to warrant being approved ANYWHERE. Yes, a lot of people are buying into the hype. Does it work? I don't know... maybe.

Edit: You cannot assume that players are putting there own health interest first.
It would be fair to say that in the absence of dangerous substances, the great game of football would continue forth, unabated.



Good points and I find myself in agreement. As another poster has pointed out, what happen to Brady also being mentioned as another user of HGH? This is why I have issues with ESPN as a supposedly unbiased sports agency.

[polywog999]

Good points and I find myself in agreement. As another poster has pointed out, what happen to Brady also being mentioned as another user of HGH? This is why I have issues with ESPN as a supposedly unbiased sports agency.
Thank you. I appreciate open minded posters like yourself. I liked the opportunity to speak on this matter.


I dont understand. Moss and Brady's name where reported in the buff. article but some how all i see and read about is just Moss!. Espn, PFT, SI, ect. If I didn't read that Buff. article I would swear it's only Moss who's been put out there. I still dont understand out of all the cities and players in those cities it's still only about Washington and the Moss connection!. What happened to Brady's name?. Did the world forget about the "Golden boy"?

Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. Until I know something for sure, I know nothing.

[pvkeeper19]

As another poster has pointed out, what happen to Brady also being mentioned as another user of HGH? This is why I have issues with ESPN as a supposedly unbiased sports agency.
I hadn't heard that Brady was named. Link?

It wouldn't surprise me, though. After all, he does play for the Cheatriots.

[polywog999]

I hadn't heard that Brady was named. Link?

It wouldn't surprise me, though. After all, he does play for the Cheatriots.
Someone said he did it, so that means he did it?

[CaliforniaSkin]

I dont understand. Moss and Brady's name where reported in the buff. article but some how all i see and read about is just Moss!. Espn, PFT, SI, ect. If I didn't read that Buff. article I would swear it's only Moss who's been put out there. I still dont understand out of all the cities and players in those cities it's still only about Washington and the Moss connection!. What happened to Brady's name?. Did the world forget about the "Golden boy"?

While I agree with you in principle, the difference is that the woman arrested carrying the drugs was allegedly on her way to meet with Moss. So in Brady's case there is an association with the doctor, but in Moss' case in addition to the association, there were actually drugs found, albeit not in his system.

[angel2]

I hadn't heard that Brady was named. Link?

It wouldn't surprise me, though. After all, he does play for the Cheatriots.




This page (page #17), first post. I don't have a link.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I just can't believe that anyone from The U would cheat.

[Destino]

I just can't believe that anyone from The U would cheat.

:ols: Yeah, totally shocking.