CNN: Israel Easing Blockade of Gaza 'Except For Military Items'

[AsburySkinsFan]

Looks like the affects of the flotilla is beginning to have the desire effects. Now just to make sure that Israel follows through, and to make sure that the folks in Gaza don't shoot themselves in the foot.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/20/israel.gaza/index.html?hpt=T2


Israel plans to ease its blockade of Gaza, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday following an Israeli Security Cabinet meeting, a step commended by major powers and brushed off by a Palestinian organization and government. "The government position is that Israel should open all the crossings of Gaza in accordance with 2005 AMA agreement, and end the closure regime," Palestinian government spokesman Ghassan Khatib told CNN.

Tony Blair, envoy for the Middle East Quartet -- the U.S., Russia, the European Union and the United Nations -- said in a statement Israel would publish a list of weapons and war items not permitted into Gaza rather than those permitted, and allow full access of civilian goods.

The Security Cabinet said last week it planned to revamp its policy, paving the way for a vote Sunday.

"This comes as a partial manner due to international pressure but does not meet the minimal needs of the people in Gaza to live in dignity," said Hanan Ashrawi, member of the Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee.

Ashraw said the steps were an improvement but the blockade should be completely lifted and the Israeli occupation ended.

Israel's announcement comes three weeks after ships in Israel's naval blockade sparred with a flotilla of aid ships heading to Gaza. Nine Turkish activists were killed in the incident, which drew international criticism.

Israel's military stopped the flotilla and boarded the ships. Israel says its troops were attacked with knives, metal poles and other objects on one of the boats, and the flotilla passengers say they were fired upon without provocation.

The latest step is among six the Israeli government will begin implementing as soon as possible, including expanding operations at the existing operating land crossings and streamlining the permitting process of international aid groups the government recognizes, the prime minister said.

The naval blockade of Gaza remains in place, and military officials will continue to inspect goods on Gaza-bound ships, Netanyahu said. "Israel will continue to facilitate the expeditious inspection and delivery of goods bound for Gaza through the port of Ashdod."

Blair, who met with Netanyahu on Sunday, said the move should radically change the exchange of goods in the area.

"Plainly there are still issues to be addressed and the test of course will be not what is said, but what is done," Blair said in a statement. "But I welcome strongly this statement of policy and the Office of the Quartet Representative looks forward to working closely with the Government of Israel and other partners on its implementation."

The White House also commended the policy, saying in a statement it will improve conditions for Palestinians in Gaza while preventing the entry of weapons.

"We will work with Israel, the Palestinian Authority, the Quartet and other international partners to ensure these arrangements are implemented as quickly and effectively as possible and to explore additional ways to improve the situation in Gaza, including greater freedom of movement and commerce between Gaza and the West Bank," the statement said. "There is more to be done, and the president looks forward to discussing this new policy, and additional steps, with Prime Minister Netanyahu during his visit to Washington on July 6."

"Over these coming months we therefore need: to improve life in Gaza; continue the growth in the West Bank and the PA development of its institutions for statehood; and ensure that the indirect talks, led by Senator Mitchell, turn into full direct negotiations," Blair said.

The White House said, "there is no need for unnecessary confrontations, and we call on all parties to act responsibly in meeting the needs of the people of Gaza."

Israel, the United States and Blair all called for the release of Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier who has been held in Gaza for nearly four years. "We will redouble our efforts to secure his freedom," Blair said.

Separately, Germany criticized Israeli officials for denying Dirk Niebel, German minister of economic cooperation and development, entry into Gaza.

"The goal of the federal government remains the complete end of the blockade Gaza Strip," German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said in a Sunday statement. "That is not only Germany's stance but also that of our partners in the European Union."

Yigal Palmor, spokesman for the Israeli foreign ministry, said Neibel was not allowed to enter Gaza because "Hamas uses visits of this kind for purposes of manipulation and misrepresentation of international legitimacy and normal relations with the international community."

Israel's policy of denying high-ranking diplomats access to Gaza -- in place since last year's Israeli incursion into Gaza -- has angered European governments which finance various programs in Gaza. Israel made an exception earlier this year, when it allowed United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and Baroness Catherine Ashton, EU foreign policy chief, to visit Gaza.

[Thiebear]

fractional difference?

In other news: the EU has a Baroness still?

[AsburySkinsFan]

fractional difference?

In other news: the EU has a Baroness still?
Allowing full access to civilian goods is a fractional difference? :doh:
If that's a fractional difference then thank goodness for fractional differences.

[boobiemiles]

It's good to see that Israel can adjust when the situation warrants it.

[Redskins Diehard]

Allowing full access to civilian goods is a fractional difference? :doh:
If that's a fractional difference then thank goodness for fractional differences.
Seemingly a positive development. The proof will be when we can see what is on the list of "war items"

[Bang]

Seemingly a positive development. The proof will be when we can see what is on the list of "war items"

You can kill a man with a blanket and a milk bottle, and in the right hands, baby food bombs can be lethal! A single can of Gerber strained peas contains enough destructive force to level a building in Tel Aviv.

~Bang

[Kilmer17]

The over under is 6 weeks before a rocket is lobbed into Israeli lands or a bomb is exploded.

[Redskins Diehard]

The over under is 6 weeks before a rocket is lobbed into Israeli lands or a bomb is exploded.
Pretty sure your blockade will still prevent rockets from being delivered. So this change will likely have absolutely no impact on the current rate of rocket launches

[JMS]

The over under is 6 weeks before a rocket is lobbed into Israeli lands or a bomb is exploded.

Have rockets ever stopped being lobbed into Israeli territory from Gaza?

[Redskins Diehard]

Have rockets ever stopped being lobbed into Israeli territory from Gaza?

I suspect that there is some kind of insinuation that either a) the blockade was preventing rockets from getting in or b) that somehow the only issue that people have with Israel is the blockade itself.

This development while a step...is the tiniest of baby steps at best.

[JMS]

Pretty sure your blockade will still prevent rockets from being delivered. So this change will likely have absolutely no impact on the current rate of rocket launches


Hamas has thousands of rockets... and they bring them in through tunnels from Egypt. The blockade hasn't really curtained the rocketfire from Gaza. Israel still catches about one ever day on average over the given year... Least as recently as 2009 they did. I don't believe things changed in 2010.




http://current.com/groups/terrorism/90387787_statistics-of-kassam-rocket-and-mortar-fire-from-the-gaza-strip.htm

Year ------- No. of rockets-------No. of Mortar bombs

2001 ------- 4 ------- 245
2002 ------- 35 ------- 257
2003 ------- 155 ------- 265
2004 ------- 281 ------- 876
2005 ------- 179, 108 until the withdrawal, 71 afterwards ------- 238
2006 ------- 946 ------- 22
2007 ------- 896, 421 until the Hamas takeover, 475 afterwards ------- 749
2008 ------- 1,571, 571 rockets and 205 mortar shells during Operation Cast Lead ------- 1,531
2009 ------- 481, Jan 1 - June 2 ------- 183

[JMS]

I suspect that there is some kind of insinuation that either a) the blockade was preventing rockets from getting in or b) that somehow the only issue that people have with Israel is the blockade itself.

This development while a step...is the tiniest of baby steps at best.

Actually my point was

(a.) the blockade was useless in stopping the rocket fire, if that was it's purpose it failed. Hamas doesn't suffer from a shortage of rockets or a shortage of guns. Based on what was bared by the blockade, Israel had an additional purpose in the blockade. It was a punitive response on a population which elected a terorist organization as their representatives. A terrorist organization which continually day in and day out targets Israelis.

(b.) Lot's of people have issues both valid and invalid with Israel. I think the blockade began to become one valid issue which captured a lot of peoples attention. Especially after the heavy handed way Israel dealt with the freedom flotila two weeks ago. When Israel almost comes to blows with an important NATO country like Turkey, things have to change. I think that's the lesson learned here.


Now If you are thinking the crisis is over. Not so fast.



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138164

US, Israel Warships in Suez May Be Prelude to Faceoff with Iran

Egypt allowed at least one Israeli and 11 American warships to pass through the Suez Canal as an Iranian flotilla (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/news.aspx/138022) approaches Gaza. Egypt closed the canal to protect the ships with thousands of soldiers, according to the British-based Arabic language newspaper Al Quds al-Arabi.

One day prior to the report on Saturday, Voice of Israel government radio reported that the Egyptian government denied an Israeli request not to allow the Iranian flotilla to use the Suez Canal to reach Gaza, in violation of the Israeli sea embargo on the Hamas-controlled area.
International agreements require Egypt to keep the Suez open even for warships, but the armada, led by the USS Truman with 5,000 sailors and marines, was the largest in years. Egypt closed the canal to fishing and other boats as the armada moved through the strategic passageway that connects the Red and Mediterranean Seas.

[Thiebear]

Allowing full access to civilian goods is a fractional difference? :doh:
If that's a fractional difference then thank goodness for fractional differences.

Blockade is still there manned by Israeli's so yes: Fractionally different.
Some non-military goods to All non-military goods (For now).
Subject to change if rocket fire increases.

Jordon/Iran have a need for the rockets to increase so you can bet on it.

--------------------
United Nations should be manning the blockade and the borders as they created this.

[JMS]

Blockade is still there manned by Israeli's so yes: Fractionally different.


I think reasonable people can understand why Israel wants to blockade military weapons from Gaza. It's the school books, medical supplies, infrastructure, and other civilian goods which have captured the imagination of the world.



Some non-military goods to All non-military goods (For now).
Subject to change if rocket fire increases.


Hamas has been calling for a cease fire for years. maybe they'll get it this time. Israel has declined, because a cease fire just gives Hamas time to re-arm and re-fortify. Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace. They just want time to reposition themselves to kill more Israelis.



Jordon/Iran have a need for the rockets to increase so you can bet on it.


Jordan and Egypt are the two arab nations who have peace treaties and friendly relations with Israel. I think you were thinking Iran and Syria? Iran will fight Israel to the last Palistinian or Syrian. They fund this mess and are safely tucked away about 1000 miles distant from Israeli reprocussions. So they are more than willing to shoot their mouths off and play the antagonist.

Syria really doesn't want trouble with Israel. They are more than happy to allow other folks to make trouble with Israel like Hezbollah. Syria has had the snott kicked out of them ever decade since the 1940's by Israel. They don't want any one on one attention from Israel if they can help it.



United Nations should be manning the blockade and the borders as they created this.

How did the UN "create this"? You do know the UN has no standing army, so what you are saying is the United States should be manning the blockade?

I hope we don't, and I don't think we will.

[SkinsHokieFan]

You know what would be a real step?

If the people of Ramallah could actually go to the next town over without needing a visa

[Redskins Diehard]

Pretty sure your blockade will still prevent rockets from being delivered. So this change will likely have absolutely no impact on the current rate of rocket launches


Actually my point was

(a.) the blockade was useless in stopping the rocket fire, if that was it's purpose it failed. Hamas doesn't suffer from a shortage of rockets or a shortage of guns. Based on what was bared by the blockade, Israel had an additional purpose in the blockade. It was a punitive response on a population which elected a terorist organization as their representatives. A terrorist organization which continually day in and day out targets Israelis.

(b.) Lot's of people have issues both valid and invalid with Israel. I think the blockade began to become one valid issue which captured a lot of peoples attention. Especially after the heavy handed way Israel dealt with the freedom flotila two weeks ago. When Israel almost comes to blows with an important NATO country like Turkey, things have to change. I think that's the lesson learned here.


Now If you are thinking the crisis is over. Not so fast.

I said this change would have no impact on the rate of rocket fire.
I also said this was the tiniest of steps.

I think you have just said "actually, my point is the same as yours".

No disagreement.


Also and article out today that the internal Israeli investigation found issues with the way the flotilla raid. I doubt they found those issues because they are anti-semetic

[JMS]

You know what would be a real step?

If the people of Ramallah could actually go to the next town over without needing a visa

Hear Hear...... Or if Israel simple treated the secular Palestinians (Moslem, Christian, whatever) inside their boarders the same as she treats Jews anywhere in the world.

[JMS]

Also and article out today that the internal Israeli investigation found issues with the way the flotilla raid. I doubt they found those issues because they are anti-semetic

I looked it up for another thread. The United States has conducted eight or nine blockades since the 1960's. We've stopped literally hundreds of ships. We've never killed 10 unarmed guys before....

You can believe the very professional, very well trained Israeli special forces screwed up, failed to plan, or wasn't adiquately prepared. I have a very hard time believing any of that. I think those guys were told to send a message to every would be peace nic or activist eager to take a whack at the Israel blockade. Do so at the risk of your own life. Don't get between Israeli policy and a terrorist organization.

I think that's the message Israel thought they had sent. It's just not the message the rest of the world recieved. Now Israel's trying to say it was all a big mistake... It was a big mistake, but it was a mistake which went significantly higher up the chain of command than anybody on those boats.

[twa]

We've never killed 10 unarmed guys before....


Neither did the Israeli's

I doubt we would board starting with paint guns either....though ya never know nowadays:silly:

[AsburySkinsFan]

United Nations should be manning the blockade and the borders as they created this.
On this we agree, the only problem is that any decision by the UN that doesn't favor Israel has them screaming Antisemitism. Of course I'm in favor of the UN controlling all of the Palestinian borders, even the areas in Jerusalem and on the rest of the West Bank; but then I'm also in favor of Jerusalem itself being an International zone with no one group controlling it.

[JMS]

On this we agree, the only problem is that any decision by the UN that doesn't favor Israel has them screaming Antisemitism. Of course I'm in favor of the UN controlling all of the Palestinian borders, even the areas in Jerusalem and on the rest of the West Bank; but then I'm also in favor of Jerusalem itself being an International zone with no one group controlling it.

I don't agree with TheBear that the UN caused this rukus. Not the situation in Gaza or the underlying displaced Palestinian population problem...

I would be strongly against the UN getting involved with warehousing the Palistinian population or contributing in anyway to the sucess of the soluiton Israel has been trying implement there. Separating people from their property by force of arms along religious grounds is as unAmerican as any policy I can think of. I think it's doomed to fail, and I think we should try to limit not expand any support we have with regard to it.

I also would be strongly cautious in putting any UN troops between Israel, the Palestinians, or Hezbollah... History informes us any force put there would likely have to defend themselves from all three parties. It's a thankless, dangerous job.

As for Jerusalem... I don't dislike your solution... But again I'm cautious. The only way peace has any chance in these troubles if for Israeli's and the Palestinians to make hard choices which make none happy but they call can live with. Anything that contributes to that eventuality is helpful... Anything that complicates or postpones that eventuality is not. Thus the UN's assistance with the Jerusalem question only becomes helpful if it's part of a comprehensive implementation of a solution all parties have agreed too, not as some outside intervention or half step towards peace.

We are a long way from that.

[Baculus]

Good for Israel for easing it. The blockade was becoming a PR nightmare for them, and this allows any needed goods to Gaza.

Now, what will Israeli do about the settlements and the other issues which are affecting the road map to a Palestinian state, including the settlements?

[Larry]

Looks like really good news, to me. No doubt as with almost everything that has ever been done by any government, anywhere, there will be greatly trumpeted disagreements over various minor details. But at least it sounds like good news, from the summary.

Frankly, I'm surprised Israel had the political ability to make this move. I would have expected the Israeli government to need some kind of excuse to justify backing down like this, to their own people.

Props to Israel.

(Looking forward to how things work out, in practice.)

(And, as to having the UN in charge of customs and inspections: I'd bet that a lot of people on ES have me classified as one of those loony, antisemitic, terrorist lovers, and I'd vote against that idea. Israel has a very legitimate reason to blockade weapons into that area, and I would trust neither the UN's impartiality nor it's competency to carry out that mission.)

[Jrew1223]

you know what would be a real step?

If the people of ramallah could actually go to the next town over without needing a visa
+1

[Kilmer17]

What would be nice is if the Palestinians would respond positively to the gesture and make a concession of their own.

[twa]

What would be nice is if the Palestinians would respond positively to the gesture and make a concession of their own.

Yeah like releasing the hostage:pfft:

How about not blowing up the crossings?

[Predicto]

Yeah like releasing the hostage:pfft:

How about not blowing up the crossings?

I guarantee that Abbas and the West Bank government would release him. But they don't have him.

The Israelis need to cut the legs out from under Hamas by making real progress with Abbas.

[Thiebear]

I don't agree with TheBear that the UN caused this rukus. Not the situation in Gaza or the underlying displaced Palestinian population problem...

I would be strongly against the UN getting involved with warehousing the Palistinian population or contributing in anyway to the sucess of the soluiton Israel has been trying implement there. Separating people from their property by force of arms along religious grounds is as unAmerican as any policy I can think of. I think it's doomed to fail, and I think we should try to limit not expand any support we have with regard to it.

I also would be strongly cautious in putting any UN troops between Israel, the Palestinians, or Hezbollah... History informes us any force put there would likely have to defend themselves from all three parties. It's a thankless, dangerous job.

As for Jerusalem... I don't dislike your solution... But again I'm cautious. The only way peace has any chance in these troubles if for Israeli's and the Palestinians to make hard choices which make none happy but they call can live with. Anything that contributes to that eventuality is helpful... Anything that complicates or postpones that eventuality is not. Thus the UN's assistance with the Jerusalem question only becomes helpful if it's part of a comprehensive implementation of a solution all parties have agreed too, not as some outside intervention or half step towards peace.

We are a long way from that.

People say make hard choices yet take the easiest path every time. Only the peasants have to make hard choices.
Without looking it up I believe the United Nations Charter specifically applies to the Palestinian and the Israeli plight.
AND in 1947? the United Nations LITERALLY created this.

edited: Too inflammatory.

When it should be turned into a non-inhabitable example of what not to do for the last 100years.

Name any scenario that has even a breath of working short of moving Israel again. (every other scenario ends when Israel ends).
Short of a DMZ manned for 50 years. Tower facing Tower.

Then again, ask S.Korea how thats working out for them this year.

[Larry]

Name any scenario that has even a breath of working short of moving Israel again.

Peace? :whoknows:

[twa]

I guarantee that Abbas and the West Bank government would release him. But they don't have him.

The Israelis need to cut the legs out from under Hamas by making real progress with Abbas.

I would say Abbas supporting the blockade is progress

[Thiebear]

Peace? :whoknows:
Peace how: Can you give an example from a skosh lower than 30k feet.
Israeli's give up more land to Hamas?
Hamas is removed and some other (non-corrupt) group takes over? Sure.
Iran/Jordan stop using the Palestinians for their own purpose.
jump in any time now.

[Thiebear]

I guarantee that Abbas and the West Bank government would release him. But they don't have him.
The Israelis need to cut the legs out from under Hamas by making real progress with Abbas.

How do you know these things you constantly say:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6858494.ece
September of last year (3 years in).
and 4 days ago: Hamas wants Israel to free as many as 1000 prisoners in
exchange for Shalit
Its like you have some non-linkable crystal ball that allows you to say anything you feel..

Is there something you know that is shareable?

Next you'll say if Only Israel would give up Gaza and the West Bank the rockets would cease to land every other day.


On 18 March, Thai national Manee Singmueangphon was killed by a Palestinian Qassam rocket launched at a greenhouse in Netiv Haasara.
Both Ansar al Sunna, an Islamist group affiliated with al-Qaeda,
and al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the military wing of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah party,
claimed responsibility for the attack.


So if we added to the website of every rocket attempt.
Another website of every checkpoint injustice
we'd have us the ingredients of the never ending catalyst of struggle.

(we can't stop the rockets)
but we can stop the checkpoint issues by not having Israeli's involved.
Which would at least reduce some of the tension that isn't manufactured.

[Larry]

How do you know these things you constantly say:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6858494.ece
September of last year (3 years in).
and 4 days ago: Hamas wants Israel to free as many as 1000 prisoners in
exchange for Shalit

He actually reads, instead of making blanket declarations of absolutes, and then "supporting" them by posting things which actually agree with the person he's arguing with.

I'll give you a hint: See that word, "Hamas" in the one line you quoted? Notice that the word "Hamas" is not the word "Abbas"?

You just proved Predicto's point.

[JMS]

What would be nice is if the Palestinians would respond positively to the gesture and make a concession of their own.

Yeah, Israel has been nice enough to allow 1.5 milloin folks to eat, get electricity, and maybe even get clean drinking water, after 5 years and all it took was global condemnation of their policy and 10 dead and 30 more hospitilized unarmed peace activists.

Now it's time to cash in on all that good will Israel has generated..

[Kilmer17]

Yeah, Israel has been nice enough to allow 1.5 milloin folks to eat, get electricity, and maybe even get clean drinking water, after 5 years and all it took was global condemnation of their policy and 10 dead and 30 more hospitilized unarmed peace activists.

Now it's time to cash in on all that good will Israel has generated..

This is EXACTLY the attitude that will prevent any actual progress to be made.

This is why Israel should just say **** it, and keep doing what they are doing.

[JMS]

People say make hard choices yet take the easiest path every time. Only the peasants have to make hard choices.
Without looking it up I believe the United Nations Charter specifically applies to the Palestinian and the Israeli plight.
AND in 1947? the United Nations LITERALLY created this.


Pretty much entirely wrong. The United Nations passed UN resolution 181 in 1948. Which called for partition of the land, UN stuardship of Jerusalem, and respect for all religions... It wasn't implemented because of objections from the parties. Zionist didn't like it because it gave too much of the land to Arabs, land which used to be part of ancient Israel.
Arabs didn't like it because it gave roughly half the land to Jews, even though they were less than half the population.

The United Nations also passed resolution 194 in 1948. Partially in response to the Israeli's murdering the United Nations envoy to the troubles. Count Folke Bernadotte, (a man who saved more jews from Hittlers Germany than Oscar Shindler). Highlights of that resolution were

Article 7: protection and free access to the Holy Places
Article 8: demilitarization and UN control over Jerusalem
Article 9: free access to Jerusalem
Article 11: calls for the return of all refugees

Hell it's short enough to post..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_194

The General Assembly,
Having considered further the situation in Palestine,

Expresses its deep appreciation of the progress achieved through the good offices of the late United Nations Mediator in promoting a peaceful adjustment of the future situation of Palestine, for which cause he sacrificed his life; and extends its thanks to the Acting Mediator and his staff for their continued efforts and devotion to duty in Palestine;
<LI style="LIST-STYLE-TYPE: none">Establishes a Conciliation Commission consisting of three States Members of the United Nations which shall have the following functions:
To assume, insofar as it considers necessary in existing circumstances, the functions given to the United Nations Mediator on Palestine by resolution 186 (S-2) of the General Assembly of 14 May 1948;
To carry out the specific functions and directives given to it by the present resolution and such additional functions and directives as may be given to it by the General Assembly or by the Security Council;
To undertake, upon the request of the Security Council, any of the functions now assigned to the United Nations Mediator on Palestine or to the United Nations Truce Commission by resolutions of the Security Council; upon such request to the Conciliation Commission by the Security Council with respect to all the remaining functions of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine under Security Council resolutions, the office of the Mediator shall be terminated;

Decides that a Committee of the Assembly, consisting of China, France, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the United Kingdom and the United States of America, shall present, before the end of the first part of the present session of the General Assembly, for the approval of the Assembly, a proposal concerning the names of the three States which will constitute the Conciliation Commission;
Requests the Commission to begin its functions at once, with a view to the establishment of contact between the parties themselves and the Commission at the earliest possible date;
Calls upon the Governments and authorities concerned to extend the scope of the negotiations provided for in the Security Council's resolution of 16 November 1948 and to seek agreement by negotiations conducted either with the Conciliation Commission or directly with a view to the final settlement of all questions outstanding between them;
Instructs the Conciliation Commission to take steps to assist the Government and authorities concerned to achieve a final settlement of all questions outstanding between them;
Resolves that the Holy Places - including Nazareth - religious buildings and sites in Palestine should be protected and free access to them assured, in accordance with existing rights and historical practice that arrangements to this end should be under effective United Nations supervision; that the United Nations Conciliation Commission, in presenting to the fourth regular session of the General Assembly its detailed proposal for a permanent international regime for the territory of Jerusalem, should include recommendations concerning the Holy Places in that territory; that with regard to the Holy Places in the rest of Palestine the Commission should call upon the political authorities of the areas concerned to give appropriate formal guarantees as to the protection of the Holy Places and access to them; and that these undertakings should be presented to the General Assembly for approval;
Resolves that, in view of its association with three world religions, the Jerusalem area, including the present municipality of Jerusalem plus the surrounding villages and towns, the most Eastern of which shall be Abu Dis (http://www.extremeskins.com/wiki/Abu_Dis); the most Southern, Bethlehem (http://www.extremeskins.com/wiki/Bethlehem); the most Western, Ein Karim (http://www.extremeskins.com/wiki/Ein_Kerem) (including also the built-up area of Motsa); and the most Northern, Shu'fat (http://www.extremeskins.com/wiki/Shuafat), should be accorded special and separate treatment from the rest of Palestine and should be placed under effective United Nations control; Requests the Security Council to take further steps to ensure the demilitarization of Jerusalem at the earliest possible date; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to present to the fourth regular session of the General Assembly detailed proposals for a permanent international regime for the Jerusalem area which will provide for the maximum local autonomy for distinctive groups consistent with the special international status of the Jerusalem area; The Conciliation Commission is authorized to appoint a United Nations representative who shall cooperate with the local authorities with respect to the interim administration of the Jerusalem area;
Resolves that, pending agreement on more detailed arrangements among the Governments and authorities concerned, the freest possible access to Jerusalem by road, rail or air should be accorded to all inhabitants of Palestine; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to report immediately to the Security Council, for appropriate action by that organ, any attempt by any party to impede such access;
Instructs the Conciliation Commission to seek arrangements among the Governments and authorities concerned which will facilitate the economic development of the area, including arrangements for access to ports and airfields and the use of transportation and communication facilities;
Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;
Authorizes the Conciliation Commission to appoint such subsidiary bodies and to employ such technical experts, acting under its authority, as it may find necessary for the effective discharge of its functions and responsibilities under the present resolution; The Conciliation Commission will have its official headquarters at Jerusalem. The authorities responsible for maintaining order in Jerusalem will be responsible for taking all measures necessary to ensure the security of the Commission. The Secretary-General will provide a limited number of guards for the protection of the staff and premises of the Commission;
Instructs the Conciliation Commission to render progress reports periodically to the Secretary-General for transmission to the Security Council and to the Members of the United Nations;
Calls upon all Governments and authorities concerned to cooperate with the Conciliation Commission and to take all possible steps to assist in the implementation of the present resolution;
Requests the Secretary-General to provide the necessary staff and facilities and to make appropriate arrangements to provide the necessary funds required in carrying out the terms of the present resolution.




Name any scenario that has even a breath of working short of moving Israel again. (every other scenario ends when Israel ends).
Short of a DMZ manned for 50 years. Tower facing Tower.

Then again, ask S.Korea how thats working out for them this year.

I agree. It's impossible for Israel to remain unchanged and have peace. You can't create a country which dramatically discriminates and disposesses the majority of the folks who live there, and have peace. Israel's only chance for continued existance is through adopting a policy where the governance and laws are religiously blind and unbiased, and deel with the people who were displaced in a fair manor. That might mean buy outs. That might mean the right of return. It certainly will mean change.

The troubles Israel experiences are directly tied to the troubles the Palestinians experience. The solution must address both or it won't be any solution.

What's the alternative? The alternative to peace is a much less controled change. Jews are already a minority in Israel territory. That minority status is just going to grow larger and larger. Eventually Israel will face the same sort of united front which brought down the discrimination in South Africa. The larger the margin between majority and minority the more powerful the argument becomes. Overtime that is one of the two majory long term existential challenges for the status quo. The second is some clever Iranian figuring out how to put a guidence system on those Kutush rockets. Today those rockets are anoying... If they were more accurate they would be devistating.

[Larry]

This is EXACTLY the attitude that will prevent any actual progress to be made.

This is why Israel should just say **** it, and keep doing what they are doing.

This is EXACTLY the attitude that will prevent any actual progress to be made.

[Kilmer17]

This is EXACTLY the attitude that will prevent any actual progress to be made.

It's obvious to me that there is a persistant attitude amongst the pro palistinain crowd that NOTHING Israel does is good enough, and anything short of the Helen Thomas view is unnacceptable.

Israel just made a good gesture, and did something their opponents have been screaming at them to do.

The response????? A smarky comment and calls for Israel to do more.

They wont ever win this battle, so why should they try?

[JMS]

This is EXACTLY the attitude that will prevent any actual progress to be made.

This is why Israel should just say **** it, and keep doing what they are doing.

Actually I think blind partisanship devoid of reality is what will prevent any actual progress being made in these troubles. Israel's blockade policy and subsequent crack down on the outside aid flotillas was a disaster for Israel. The policy sucessfully made a box of spagetti an existential threat to the nation. Brilliant!.

Today Israel is fighting to maintain any control over what goes into Gaza, and she just might loose that fight; so extream and unreasonable were exposed by her previous position.

Claiming she's entitled to a good will gesture for getting her extremism and unreasonableness painted out before the world is a fanatical position. A better more reasoned approach would be to admit their failures, since everybody in the world including them acknowledges their failures; and explain the motivation for those flawed policies, along with the mistakes, and how they are going to move forward ensuring no repeat. Getting your hand caught in the cookie jar and getting it slapped, isn't a powerful negotiation position.... That's just facts.
Israel's Idiocy handed Hamas and Iran a huge victory here. And the issue isn't over yet.

[Kilmer17]

Actually I think blind partisanship devoid of reality is what will prevent any actual progress being made in these troubles. Israel's blockade policy and subsequent crack down on the outside aid flotillas was a disaster for Israel. The policy sucessfully made a box of spagetti an existential threat to the nation. Brilliant!.

Today Israel is fighting to maintain any control over what goes into Gaza, and she just might loose that fight; so extream and unreasonable were her previous position.

Claiming she's entitled to a good will gesture for getting her extremism and unreasonableness painted out before the world is a fanatical position. A better more reasoned approach would be to admit their failures, since everybody in the world including them acknowledges their failures; and explain the motivation for those flawed policies. Getting your hand caught in the cookie jar and getting it slapped, isn't a powerful negotiation position.... That's just facts.

Those are YOUR facts. The pro everything palistinian and anti Israeli Helen Thomas view.

Again, if Israel gets nothing out of it except more condemnation, why should they bother?

[JMS]

It's obvious to me that there is a persistant attitude amongst the pro palistinain crowd that NOTHING Israel does is good enough,

Well that's likely because Israel has done little in the name of peace for a decade. When Israel gave up on the peace talks in 1999, she moved hard to the right. She consolidated to more defensible positions and she began militarily attacking and destroying the infrastructure of the moderate Fatah and PA who once was her peace partner. Now she's faced with two more radical groups to contend with.

It's pretty messed up when you let an admitted terrorist organization like Hamas capture the sympathy of the world because your own policies are so F-ed up.

[Larry]

It's obvious to me that there is a persistant attitude amongst the pro palistinain crowd that NOTHING Israel does is good enough, and anything short of the Helen Thomas view is unnacceptable.

It is obvious to me ththere is a persistent attitude among the pro genocide crowd that NOTHING that Israel does is ever wrong, and anything short of the extermination of all non-Jews in the region is unacceptable.


Israel just made a good gesture, and did something their opponents have been screaming at them to do.

Israel just stopped making war on civilians. (Or at least, reduced the part of their war on civilians which has drawn the world's attention, lately.) Something which they never should have done in the first place.


The response????? A smarky comment and calls for Israel to do more.

The result? Smarky comments that the civilians who Israel's war have been repressing for decades should be grateful that The Empire has chosen to not lean on the boot on their throat quite so much.

For a while.

[Larry]

Those are YOUR facts. The pro everything palistinian and anti Israeli Helen Thomas view.

Right.

Those are HIS facts.

And those are YOUR lies and name calling.

Perhaps you should consider a change of weapons?

[JMS]

Again, if Israel gets nothing out of it except more condemnation, why should they bother?

You should ask yourself, why they did bother? Israel didn't end the blockade of Gaza to curt favor with the Palestinians. They did it because their hands were tied... They did so because if they didn't bother Israel had significantly more to loose than allowing a Gaza school child to read a book, or eat spegetti O's.

Two weeks ago I published an article from a conservative paper saying the US was going to lift it's protection of Israel in the United Nations over the blockade. Germany, UK, France, and Ireland aren't very big fans of Israel either now a days after the Fiasco in Dubia. Let's not forget Turkey and her 40 casualties including 10 dead. How many close Israeli allies do you think they should piss-off over this policy? How many billions a year in Aid do you think those countries represent to Israel? How many Billions in trade?

That's why Israel acted.

[JMS]

Kilmer, I'm not saying Israel doesn't have a compelling story to tell. They certainly do.
I am saying she doesn't have a compelling story to tell about the blockade in Gaza, or why folks should be throwing concessions at Israel's feet for "easing" that blockade.

[Kilmer17]

Kilmer, I'm not saying Israel doesn't have a compelling story to tell. They certainly do.
I am saying she doesn't have a compelling story to tell about the blockade in Gaza, or why folks should be throwing concessions at Israel's feet for "easing" that blockade.

I said that the Palestinians should respond positively and offer a concession of their own.

That's how negotiations work.

[Jrew1223]

Ephraim Halevy, Former Head of Mossad and former National Security Director:
“If Israel’s goal were to remove the threat of rockets from the residents of southern Israel, opening the border crossings would have ensured such quiet for a generation.”

Guys, this blockade was never about security...

In order to understand why people do what they do you have to understand their motivation and their goals. The Netanyahu government and the Likud Party have written in their charters under the security section that they will do everything necessary to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state in any shape or form. They believe that the lands in the West Bank and Gaza are exclusively Jewish and all of their actions are carried out in a manner to attain that goal.

You can read more about the specifics of their goals at the website link I placed below.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

The current Likud Party is the coalition of several parties such as the Herut Party, Free Center, State List and segments of the Land of Israel Movement. The philosophy is based on the expansionist objectives of Ze'ev (Vladimir) Jabotinsky who arrived on scene from Czarist Russia in the early 1900's. He founded the Revisionist Party, which the Likud Party's platform is based from, in 1925. He was also the founder of the Irgun.

The Revisionist Party aimed to reverse the decision the British made in 1922 to detach Trans-Jordan from the British Mandate over Palestine and reassert Jabotinsky's vision of a "Greater Israel."

Benny Morris, an Israeli historian, wrote in his book that the revisionists continued to dream of conquering Trans-Jordan down to the 1950's and 1960's and some even later. Their slogan was: "Two banks to the Jordan, one is ours and the other too."

I am sure that some of you are going to tell me that Benny Morris is some left wing fill in the blank, but that is not the case. In his personal view, although he claims that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1948, he says that sometimes ethnic cleansings are necessary. He said that the great nation of America would have never come into being without the cleansing of the Native Americans. On record he said that the Israel/Palestine conflict would probably have been ended a long time ago if Ben-Gurion had "finished the job," instead of stopping before all the Arabs were removed. When asked about his opinion on what motivates the Arabs to attack with suicide bombs he responded by saying that we shouldn't worry about what motivates such a person... you wouldn't sit down an try and figure out the motivations of a serial killer, you would just put him in prision or kill him.


The point I want to make in all of this is, when considering all the recent events, why is it that we give the Israeli narrative the benefit of the doubt in every case assuming their are right and noble while the Arabs are evil and mischeivious? In the case of the flotilla, every accusation that was made against the participants have been proven to either be out right false, or it has been proven that such accusations were not backed by any actual evidence.

"On June 3, Israeli journalist Lia Tarachansky of the Real News Network and I placed calls to the IDF Spokesman’s Office to demand further evidence of the Marmara’s Al Qaeda ties. We received identical responses from spokespeople from the IDF’s Israel and North America desks: 'We don’t have any evidence. The press release was based on information from the National Security Council.' "

"On June 7, Haaretz’s Anshel Pfeffer reported on an IDF press release claiming without evidence that five flotilla passengers had links to international terror. The press release was larded with highly implausible claims, including that Ken O’Keefe, who runs an aid organization with Tony Blair’s sister-in-law, was planning to train a Hamas commando unit in the Gaza Strip. When I called the IDF Spokesman’s Office, I learned that once again, no evidence was available to support their press release. “There is very limited intelligence we can give in this specific case,” Sgt. Chen Arad told me. “Obviously I’m unable to give you more information.” Did Pfeffer demand more evidence? If he did and was answered in the same manner as I did, why did Haaretz publish an unsubstantiated spin as fact?"

"I called Sgt. Arad at the IDF Spokesman’s Office to investigate. He told me he had no evidence to support the photo’s questionable caption. Soon after our phone conversation, Haaretz quietly altered the caption, removing its claim that the photo was taken “after” the commando raid. For nearly a week, the false photo caption had remained intact. Why did Haaretz suddenly change it? "

http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/under-scrutiny-idf-retracts-claims-about-flotillas-al-qaeda-links/

http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/idf-admits-it-doctored-flotilla-audio-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/

http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/nailed-again-under-pressure-idf-and-haaretz-retract-description-of-suspicious-idf-distributed-photo/

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/photographs-of-battered-israeli-commandos-show-new-side-of-raid/



Kilmer gave us the over under on how long it will be until the first rocket rains down on Israeli cities from Gaza now that they have stated they will ease the blockade... I agree with Kilmer that there will be a rocket fired and it will probably happen sooner than later, but I believe it will be one fired into Israel by members of the IDF or Mossad to provide pretext to tighten the blockade once again. A peaceful co-existence with Gaza has never been the goal... The mission is to take the land and get rid of the Palestinians...


This is not an indictment of the entire Jewish population of the State of Israel... I have a lot of friends over there who are against what the current government is doing... If we want some kind of peace, the Israelis need to vote out this government...

-J

[JMS]

their are right and noble while the Arabs are evil and mischeivious? In the case of the flotilla, every accusation that was made against the participants have been proven to either be out right false, or it has been proven that such accusations were not backed by any actual evidence.


One thing that did come out of this.... We have futher "clarified" our position of what a terrorist is......

Israel placed the flotilla organizers on their terririst watch list... And yesterday the supreme court of the United States concurred....

Today a terrorist is not just somebody who blows people up and engages in terrorism. Terrorists are also Lawyers who advise recognized terrorist groups in how to state their goals, negotiate grevences, or pressent their greviences before international bodies....

Terrorists are also folks who give humanitarian aid to anybody who belongs to a terrorist group...

By Israel's and America's new definition on terrorism, the flotilla organizers are terrorists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/21/AR2010062104267.html


The Supreme Court goes too far in the name of fighting terrorism

WHICH OF the following is illegal under the law that bars providing "material support" to terrorists?:
1. Giving money to a terrorist organization.
2. Providing explosives training to terrorists.
3. Urging a terrorist group to put down its arms in favor of using lawful, peaceful means to achieve political goals.
After Monday's Supreme Court ruling in Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project the answer is: all three.

[Jrew1223]

One thing that did come out of this.... We have futher "clarified" our position of what a terrorist is......

Israel placed the flotilla organizers on their terririst watch list... And yesterday the supreme court of the United States concurred....

Today a terrorist is not just somebody who blows people up and engages in terrorism. Terrorists are also Lawyers who advise recognized terrorist groups in how to state their goals, negotiate grevences, or pressent their greviences before international bodies....

Terrorists are also folks who give humanitarian aid to anybody who belongs to a terrorist group...

By Israel's and America's new definition on terrorism, the flotilla organizers are terrorists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/21/AR2010062104267.html

Yeah I read that earlier...

I would like to say that I can't understand why there are so many people here in America that are so clueless to the actual reality of the situation, but I can understand it... It's a combination of fear and purposely narrowed information resources... God help us...

[JMS]

Yeah I read that earlier...

I would like to say that I can't understand why there are so many people here in America that are so clueless to the actual reality of the situation, but I can understand it... It's a combination of fear and purposely narrowed information resources... God help us...

I put it in it's own thread.

It's the faith based reasoners. They don't see two sides to any issue, just right and wrong. You are with us, or agin us. No grey tones.

It is not a good omen.

[Larry]

I said that the Palestinians should respond positively and offer a concession of their own.

That's how negotiations work.

If Hamas stops firing rockets, is your reaction:


1) "Now Israel should give up their claim to Jerusalem."

2) "Well, about time. They shouldn't have been doing it in the first place."

[Larry]

Kilmer gave us the over under on how long it will be until the first rocket rains down on Israeli cities from Gaza now that they have stated they will ease the blockade... I agree with Kilmer that there will be a rocket fired and it will probably happen sooner than later, but I believe it will be one fired into Israel by members of the IDF or Mossad to provide pretext to tighten the blockade once again.

You would have been a lot more credible if you'd left this out.

[Thiebear]

If Hamas stops firing rockets, is your reaction:

1) "Now Israel should give up their claim to Jerusalem."

2) "Well, about time. They shouldn't have been doing it in the first place."


Seems to me:
IF the rockets stopped. Statehood would ensue.
With Statehood other rights are then transferred by default.

[Larry]

Seems to me:
IF the rockets stopped. Statehood would ensue.

Wondering where in the world you're getting that impression from.

(I'd agree that their odds would be better if they stopped. That might well be one step down the path. But I sure wouldn't assert that that one thing would be sufficient, in and of itself, to cause Peace to break out all over.)

Edit: Clarification:

Stopping the rockets is a prerequisite for peace. (Duh.) There absolutely cannot be peace without it.

I just don't think it's as simple as "Rockets stop, therefore peace".

[Kilmer17]

If Hamas stops firing rockets, is your reaction:


1) "Now Israel should give up their claim to Jerusalem."

2) "Well, about time. They shouldn't have been doing it in the first place."

Neither.

[Jrew1223]

You would have been a lot more credible if you'd left this out.

I understand what you mean since there are a lot of loons out there that blame mossad for this and that, but I just want to make sure people are aware that Israel has acted like this before when things were not going the way they wanted it to. In reponse to a question of why Israel broke the cease fire (which many here think is Arab Propaganda), the response was that a cease fire is not a part of the long term strategic goals. According to this point of view, if Israel were to abide by the cease fire, it would imply that they accept Hamas as a political entity. It would also put pressure on the Israeli government to settle the outstanding matters.

As I stated before in my first post, the goal of the current government in Israel is to settle all the land of the West Bank and Gaza and incorporate it into a Jewish only state. That's not my opinion, that is what they have come right out and said themselves.

To accomplish this goal, the government has instilled legislation and regulation to slowly make life miserable for Palestinians and acquire more of their territory. In East Jerusalem for example, laws are on the books prohibiting any Arab from purchasing land and prohibiting any Jew from selling their land to an Arab.

Getting back to Gaza though, the way that they are accomplishing there goals is to constantly portray the people as being irrational militants that cannot be reasoned with. This justifies to the international community (and many ES members here) the military responses by Israel. If Hamas hypothetically one day decided to just say screw it we are going to stop fighting back, that would lead to pressure to identify national boundaries and end the conflict with Israel and Palestine being two states. (Also take into consideration that if they did stop fighting all at once, how would we here in America even know since all the information coming out of Gaza is controlled by the Israeli military.)

Why would it be irrational to conceive that if Hamas stopped all their activities and just sat on the floor with their hands behind their backs, the Israelis would do something to instigate more fighting? The current government has made it clear that it will never stand for a Palestinian state. My originial statement that you commented on concerning my credibility would be a logical action for the Israelis to carry out their stated goals...

-J

[twa]

Hey nice new shopping mall in Gaza

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/mideastdispatches/archives/001127.html

How can they do this with their people starving like dogs?;)

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/images/printed/P210609/a.0.2106.40.1.9.jpg

[THEREALTOR1]

twa = :pokeye:

:)

[Thiebear]

Wondering where in the world you're getting that impression from.

(I'd agree that their odds would be better if they stopped. That might well be one step down the path. But I sure wouldn't assert that that one thing would be sufficient, in and of itself, to cause Peace to break out all over.)

Edit: Clarification:

Stopping the rockets is a prerequisite for peace. (Duh.) There absolutely cannot be peace without it.

I just don't think it's as simple as "Rockets stop, therefore peace".

The World (including the evil Republican Bush Admin) was dying to give the Palestinians Statehood. Then they elected Hamas due to all kinds of reasons and the rockets increased ending that.

End the Rockets = Statehood.. Plain and simple...
Statehood = your own forces in your checkpoints.
Statehood = Representatives....



Israel ceased to act in cooperation with the PNA and later on would occupy some Palestinian cities anew. In the shadow of the rising death toll from the violence, the United States initiated the Road Map for Peace (published on June 24, 2002), which is intended to end the Intifada by disarming the Palestinian terror groups and creating an independent Palestinian state. The Road Map has stalled awaiting the implementation of the step required by the first phase of that plan. It remains stalled due to the civil war between Hamas and Fatah.

In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip as part of the Disengagement Plan, which was seen as a move toward creating an independent Palestinian state.

[HailGreen28]

One thing that did come out of this.... We have futher "clarified" our position of what a terrorist is......

Israel placed the flotilla organizers on their terririst watch list... And yesterday the supreme court of the United States concurred....

Today a terrorist is not just somebody who blows people up and engages in terrorism. Terrorists are also Lawyers who advise recognized terrorist groups in how to state their goals, negotiate grevences, or pressent their greviences before international bodies....

Terrorists are also folks who give humanitarian aid to anybody who belongs to a terrorist group...

By Israel's and America's new definition on terrorism, the flotilla organizers are terrorists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/21/AR2010062104267.htmlSo you think the flotilla was about bringing aid. Huh.

[Ryman of the North]

I am always amused when people misrepresent the Likud party, go read thier charter, its pretty clear that they only dispute THE UNILATERAL declaration of a Palestinian country. but its way better to argue that they dont anything, that way the liberals can ignore the fact that when the Palestinians had the shot at a homeland they crapped the bed.

I alos notice that nobody notices that Jordan comprised the majority of the original mandate yet nobody is screaming that the the land was stolen from the jews to do so. INteresting stuff.

[Ryman of the North]

the flotillas were never about bringing aid, the organisers were very cleasr that was ancillary to the stated goal of making Israel look bad.

[Larry]

I am always amused when people misrepresent the Likud party, go read thier charter, its pretty clear that they only dispute THE UNILATERAL declaration of a Palestinian country. but its way better to argue that they dont anything, that way the liberals can ignore the fact that when the Palestinians had the shot at a homeland they crapped the bed.

Guess it would be silly to ask you for links to any of the things you're claiming, huh?

[jpyaks3]

I alos notice that nobody notices that Jordan comprised the majority of the original mandate yet nobody is screaming that the the land was stolen from the jews to do so. INteresting stuff.

Maybe thats because Jews owned a vast minority of the land and were the vast minority of the population in any part of Palestine. The partition plan greatly over represented the Jewish population by any measure. So the reason no one is talking about it in those terms is because it would make absolutely no sense to talk about it in those terms. The only reason to bring up an argument along those lines is to try to make a disingenuous point.

[Bang]

the flotillas were never about bringing aid, the organisers were very cleasr that was ancillary to the stated goal of making Israel look bad.

It worked. Propaganda can be as powerful as a nuclear bomb.

~Bang

[Ryman of the North]

Guess it would be silly to ask you for links to any of the things you're claiming, huh?

TBH the main reason I would rather people did their own research is that when they do they read the ENTIRE page.

here was a 10 second google of likud party charter you end up opn the knesset webpage

in regards to the palestinian question.... " The Palestinians
Declaration of a State

A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration."

Note the word unilateral. this has always been a sticking point.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

In regards to the mandate, the entire jordanian state came from land promised to the jews, google when it came into existence, why do you think the jews bombed the king david hotel and suddenly stopped supporting britain? again google is your friend.

I would vastly prefer people to start reading things and researching on their own, as the large part of "links" that get posted are from pretty lame sites and wikipedia.

[Ryman of the North]

Maybe thats because Jews owned a vast minority of the land and were the vast minority of the population in any part of Palestine. The partition plan greatly over represented the Jewish population by any measure. So the reason no one is talking about it in those terms is because it would make absolutely no sense to talk about it in those terms. The only reason to bring up an argument along those lines is to try to make a disingenuous point.


The mandate was very clear, if you are trying to use legalities as an argument against israel which is something you and your ilk do constantly then you cant ignore that LEGALLY the land was given to the jews. so going by that over 75% was taken away from the jews and given to the arabs, but that doesnt jive with your whole " israel is unfair to the arabs " schtick.

[Ryman of the North]

It worked. Propaganda can be as powerful as a nuclear bomb.

~Bang

True to some extent, but most intelligent people werent affected by some propoganda created by a terrorist organisation, some of us actually read and watch something other than CNN.

[jpyaks3]

The mandate was very clear, if you are trying to use legalities as an argument against israel which is something you and your ilk do constantly then you cant ignore that LEGALLY the land was given to the jews. so going by that over 75% was taken away from the jews and given to the arabs, but that doesnt jive with your whole " israel is unfair to the arabs " schtick.

Show me where in the mandate the Jewish population was given 100 percent of Trans-Jordan, the entire thing.

[Bang]

True to some extent, but most intelligent people werent affected by some propoganda created by a terrorist organisation, some of us actually read and watch something other than CNN.

It's a good thing that whole drama played out on every other channel too, huh?

~Bang

[Ryman of the North]

Show me where in the mandate the Jewish population was given 100 percent of Trans-Jordan, the entire thing.

I dont like wikipedia but its late and im lazy
llok carefully at the map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine

and yeah John, the whole gongshow was all over tv but the BBC did the best follow up on it.

[jpyaks3]

I dont like wikipedia but its late and im lazy
llok carefully at the map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine

and yeah John, the whole gongshow was all over tv but the BBC did the best follow up on it.

This is a pretty ****ing big part of that mandate



it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

Jews were promised that Britain would attempt to build a Jewish home in Palestine, but they were pretty clear that they also recognized the rights of non-Jews in the area and creating a Jewish national home over the whole of Trans-Jordan and the Palestine Mandate would infringe on those rights. So they weren't promised the entire Trans-Jordan mandate, they were promised that they would get a home in Palestine not the entirety of Palestine which was also stated here



made it clear that in the eyes of the mandatory Power, the Jewish National Home was to be founded in Palestine and not that Palestine as a whole was to be converted into a Jewish National Home

So where exactly are you getting that Jews were promised the entire mandate?

EDIT: I will make it easy for you...they weren't.

To continue



In March of 1930 Lord Passfield, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had authored a Cabinet Paper[54] which said:

In the Balfour Declaration there is no suggestion that the Jews should be accorded a special or favoured position in Palestine as compared with the Arab inhabitants of the country, or that the claims of Palestinians to enjoy self-government (subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory as foreshadowed in Article XXII of the Covenant) should be curtailed in order to facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people."

The British were very clear that the Arab's rights were to respected and that the Jewish home was not to be the entire mandate.

[Larry]

Actually, trying to decipher things from Ryman's link, I've wound up on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement), covering the "Faisal–Weizmann Agreement".


The Faisal-Weizmann Agreement was signed on January 3, 1919, by Emir Feisal (son of the King of Hejaz) and Chaim Weizmann (later President of the World Zionist Organization) as part of the Paris Peace Conference, 1919 settling disputes stemming from World War I. It was a short-lived agreement for Arab-Jewish cooperation on the development of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and an Arab nation in a large part of the Middle East.

1) Observing that the words "a Jewish homeland in Palestine" can mean two different things.

The link contains a picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Faisal-Weizmann_map.png/250px-Faisal-Weizmann_map.png
With the caption: Map showing the boundaries of the Jewish state proposed by Zionists at the Paris Conference, superimposed on modern boundaries.

Supposedly, the main points of this treaty were:


* The agreement committed both parties to conducting all relations between the groups by the most cordial goodwill and understanding, to work together to encourage immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale while protecting the rights of the Arab peasants and tenant farmers, and to safeguard the free practice of religious observances. The Muslim Holy Places were to be under Muslim control.

* The Zionist movement undertook to assist the Arab residents of Palestine and the future Arab state to develop their natural resources and establish a growing economy.

* The boundaries between an Arab State and Palestine should be determined by a Commission after the Paris Peace Conference.

* The parties committed to carrying into effect the Balfour Declaration of 1917, calling for a Jewish national home in Palestine.

* Disputes were to be submitted to the British Government for arbitration.


The "Balfour declaration" which is referred to is:


The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

[jpyaks3]

Actually, trying to decipher things from Ryman's link, I've wound up on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal-Weizmann_Agreement), covering the "Faisal–Weizmann Agreement".



1) Observing that the words "a Jewish homeland in Palestine" can mean two different things.

The link contains a picture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Faisal-Weizmann_map.png/250px-Faisal-Weizmann_map.png
With the caption: Map showing the boundaries of the Jewish state proposed by Zionists at the Paris Conference, superimposed on modern boundaries.

Supposedly, the main points of this treaty were:



The "Balfour declaration" which is referred to is:

See the problem here is that Faisal really didn't have any authority to speak for the the Arabs. He was only a smallish player in the situation. Its a pretty complex situation because numerous Arab leaders were trying to move into a position where they could take over as soon as the war ended. This resulted in numerous agreements, correspondences, and treaties made between various British officials and various Arab leaders most of which are contradictory in some manner. The one thing every other one agreed on is that Palestine was to be Arab and the rights of Palestinians were to be respected, this was the only one that went against that. On top of that the British didn't come through with the independent Arab state which voided that agreement right after it was agreed upon. So to point out a single agreement out that was significantly out of what with the numerous other agreements by someone who really didn't have the power to make that agreement doesn't really paint a true picture of the situation.

EDIT: Regarding the map: The Zionists proposed all sorts of boundaries that encompassed quite a lot more land than they ended up receiving but the problem was that they by no measure of population, land owned, or any other measure were going to be able to get anywhere near that amount of land. As it stands the boundaries that they got in 1947 still was tilted in the Zionists favor as they received more land than their land ownership or population suggests that they should have received.