Yahoo: Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs

[renaissance]

Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100624/ap_on_en_tv/us_immigration_take_our_jobs)

AP – FILE - In this April 9, 2008 file photo, Stephen Colbert is photographed at his office in New York. …

By JULIANA BARBASSA, Associated Press Writer Juliana Barbassa, Associated Press Writer – Thu Jun 24, 5:42 pm ET

SAN FRANCISCO – In a tongue-in-cheek call for immigration reform, farm workers are teaming up with comedian Stephen Colbert to challenge Americans: Come on, take our jobs.

Farm workers are tired of being blamed by politicians and anti-immigrant activists for taking work that should go to Americans and dragging down the economy, said Arturo Rodriguez, the president of the United Farm Workers of America.

So the group is encouraging the unemployed — and any Washington pundits or anti-immigrant activists who want to join them — to apply for the some of thousands of agricultural jobs being posted with state agencies as harvest season begins.

All applicants need to do is fill out an online form under the banner "I want to be a farm worker" at http://www.takeourjobs.org, and experienced field hands will train them and connect them to farms.

According to the Labor Department, three out of four farm workers were born abroad, and more than half are illegal immigrants.

Proponents of tougher immigration laws have argued that farmers have become used to labor and don't want to raise wages enough to draw in other workers.

Those who have done the job have some words of advice for applicants: First, dress appropriately.

During summer, when the harvest of fruits and vegetables is in full swing in Central Valley, temperatures hover in the triple digits. Heat exhaustion is one of the reasons farm labor consistently makes the Bureau of Labor Statistics' top ten list of the nation's most dangerous jobs. Second, expect long days. Growers have a small window to pick fruit before it is overripe.

And don't count on a big paycheck. Farm workers are excluded from federal overtime provisions, and small farms don't even have to pay the minimum wage. Fifteen states don't require farm labor to be covered by workers compensation laws.

Any takers?

"The reality is farmworkers who are here today aren't taking any American jobs away. They work in often unbearable situations," Rodriguez said. "I don't think there will be many takers, but the offer is being made. Let's see what happens."

To highlight how unlikely the prospect of Americans lining up to pick strawberries or grapes, Comedy Central's "Colbert Report" plans to feature the "Take Our Jobs" campaign on July 8.

The campaign is being played for jokes, but the need to secure the right to work for immigrants who are here is serious business, said Michael Rubio, supervisor in Kern County, one of the biggest ag producing counties in the nation.

"Our county, our economy, rely heavily on the work of immigrant and unauthorized workers," he said. "I would encourage all our national leaders to come visit Kern County and to spend one day, or even half a day, in the shoes of these farm workers."

Hopefully, the message will go down easier with some laughs, said Manuel Cunha, president of the California grower association Nisei Farmers League, who was not a part of the campaign.

"If you don't add some humor to this, it's enough to get you drinking, and I don't mean Pepsi," Cunha said, dismissing the idea that Americans would take up the farm workers' offer.

California's agriculture industry launched a similar campaign in 1998, hoping to recruit welfare recipients and unemployed workers to work on farms, he said. Three people showed up.

"Give us a legal, qualified work force. Right now, farmers don't know from day to day if they're going to get hammered by ICE," he said, referring to U.S. Immigration Customs Enforcement. "What happens to my labor pool?"
His organization supports AgJobs, a bill currently in the Senate which would allow those who have worked in U.S. agriculture for at least 150 days in the previous two years to get legal status.

The bill has been proposed in various forms since the late 1990s, with backing from the United Farm Workers of America and other farming groups, but has never passed.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

I would :rotflmao: if this backfired on them

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think the US Census tried the same thing this year, with unemployment near 10% they still had job openings...why is that if so many Americans are looking for work.

I love this article though because it exposes the soft underbelly of the hypocritical notion that the illegals are stealing American jobs, I know extremely few Americans who are willing to take up the migrant worker lifestyle in order to work. Any wonder why the tobacco that people smoke is harvested by immigrant workers?

[perturbed]

http://rlv.zcache.com/they_took_our_jobs_tshirt-d235648038281095886yhmi_325.jpg

[Hail_Skins]

I work construction and without the imported labor, the costs would skyrocket. Immigrants, latinos, Mexicans don't lay out of work. They work sun up to sun down and at least 6 days a week, smiling! They will literally work themselves to death!

On the other hand the few "American" crews left are whiney, argumentative babies, who on any given day have half the crew layed out do to workman's comp issues or just plain lazy!

I will take a Mexican/Latino over any American anyday!

[Hail_Skins]

I would :rotflmao: if this backfired on them

Won't happen you couldn't even fill a short bus!

[sjinhan]

I would :rotflmao: if this backfired on them

I think those guys will be happy if it "backfires" on them since now they will have finally found their legal workforce... Unfortunately its wont happen. I will be surprised if they can even get 10-20 people to show up.

[wshngtn1]

As long as they're all legal immigrants, I have no issues with them taking 'our' jobs...because when they are legal, they are part of 'our'. Illegals shouldn't be in the country period. Just because it makes things easier on farm owners doesn't make it right.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I work construction and without the imported labor, the costs would skyrocket. Immigrants, latinos, Mexicans don't lay out of work. They work sun up to sun down and at least 6 days a week, smiling! They will literally work themselves to death!

On the other hand the few "American" crews left are whiney, argumentative babies, who on any given day have half the crew layed out do to workman's comp issues or just plain lazy!

I will take a Mexican/Latino over any American anyday!

100 percent agree with you here. I have never had more hard working guys then my Latino crews.

As for this challenge, I bet no more then 100 people apply for these jobs. There is no way that McDonalds eating Americans will be willing to do these jobs or handle the all day labor

:ols:

[Madison Redskin]

100 percent agree with you here. I have never had more hard working guys then my Latino crews.

As for this challenge, I bet no more then 100 people apply for these jobs. There is no way that McDonalds eating Americans will be willing to do these jobs or handle the all day labor

:ols:

I don't believe in free-market competition. I would rather have the government fix the playing field so I always beat people who are willing to work harder, for less money.

[GoSkins561]

I work construction and without the imported labor, the costs would skyrocket. Immigrants, latinos, Mexicans don't lay out of work. They work sun up to sun down and at least 6 days a week, smiling! They will literally work themselves to death!

On the other hand the few "American" crews left are whiney, argumentative babies, who on any given day have half the crew layed out do to workman's comp issues or just plain lazy!

I will take a Mexican/Latino over any American anyday!

You mean, there won't be any more McMansions that people can't to afford to heat or cool in the first place?

[DCsportsfan53]

I would :rotflmao: if this backfired on them


The chances of any sort of number of lazy Americans taking them up on this and heading into a 100 degree field to pick strawberries are about the same as the chance that I'll wake up tomorrow with an 18 inch ****. Not a chance it backfires and good on them for doing this, it helps point out the inherent hypocrisy behind the immigration debates.

[Tweedr01]

100 percent agree with you here. I have never had more hard working guys then my Latino crews.

As for this challenge, I bet no more then 100 people apply for these jobs. There is no way that McDonalds eating Americans will be willing to do these jobs or handle the all day labor

:ols:

Why would they when they get their welfare check for being fat?44012

[DCsportsfan53]

I work construction and without the imported labor, the costs would skyrocket. Immigrants, latinos, Mexicans don't lay out of work. They work sun up to sun down and at least 6 days a week, smiling! They will literally work themselves to death!

On the other hand the few "American" crews left are whiney, argumentative babies, who on any given day have half the crew layed out do to workman's comp issues or just plain lazy!

I will take a Mexican/Latino over any American anyday!

I work in the auto repair industry and I agree with you 110%. I know if I'm ever starting my own shop I'm looking for the legal immigrant who didn't grow up here because just looking around my shop, those are the guys who work HARD and don't complain. It's the white boys who whine about every job they're given and are looking for every opportunity to go home early. Now, even assuming you had to pay them equally, which one are you going hire?

[twa]

Why would they when they get their welfare check for being fat?44012

Or constantly extended unemployment compensation.

A inconvenient truth.....Hunger is great motivator to work.

[Tweedr01]

I work in the auto repair industry and I agree with you 110%. I know if I'm ever starting my own shop I'm looking for the legal immigrant who didn't grow up here because just looking around my shop, those are the guys who work HARD and don't complain. It's the white boys who whine about every job they're given and are looking for every opportunity to go home early. Now, even assuming you had to pay them equally, which one are you going hire?

Racist much?

[#98QBKiller]

I work construction and without the imported labor, the costs would skyrocket. Immigrants, latinos, Mexicans don't lay out of work. They work sun up to sun down and at least 6 days a week, smiling! They will literally work themselves to death!

On the other hand the few "American" crews left are whiney, argumentative babies, who on any given day have half the crew layed out do to workman's comp issues or just plain lazy!

I will take a Mexican/Latino over any American anyday!

This is exactly right. I worked landscaping when I was a teenager and we had a bunch of Mexicans working with us and I swear they would work all day every day and wouldn't complain about anything. They were there to work and earn a paycheck for it.

This was the first job I ever had and I learned a lot about hard work from them.

[Fight for ole DC]

There are (were?) many Americans who would do this kind of work. For example, Dole Pineapple Company used to hire teenagers to work the pineapple fields during the summer in Hawaii. I know because I did it in the early 80s. Dole hired hundreds of kids to live on Lanai for the summer working 40 hours a week picking pineapples. We lived in dorms and worked the night shift, picking truck load after truck load of pineapples. It was very hard, dirty work. The first few weeks were tough as our bodies adjusted to the hard labor. Once we got used to it became easier. We learned a lot over the summer. We learned teamwork and the value of hard work. I also learned that I wanted to get a good education so that I could find a job I would enjoy.

Americans would do this and it would be good for them. Agribusinesses could follow a similar model for American teenagers. Hire them to work during school breaks. It would be good for kids to do this kind of work. They would make a little money and learn valuable life skills. Granted, Dole would now have to figure out how to deal with this generation’s helicopter parents, nevertheless, it would be beneficial for the kids and the company.

Americans can and will do this kind of work given the right opportunity. Businesses seek immigrant labor for not only low wages but also for the “low maintenance” factor immigrant labor brings. There would be an adjustment period for business as they bring on more Americans to do the work, a period that would include some difficulties but undoubtedly Americans can and will do this kind of work.

[JimboDaMan]

There are (were?) many Americans who would do this kind of work. For example, Dole Pineapple Company used to hire teenagers to work the pineapple fields during the summer in Hawaii. I know because I did it in the early 80s. Dole hired hundreds of kids to live on Lanai for the summer working 40 hours a week picking pineapples. We lived in dorms and worked the night shift, picking truck load after truck load of pineapples. It was very hard, dirty work. The first few weeks were tough as our bodies adjusted to the hard labor. Once we got used to it became easier. We learned a lot over the summer. We learned teamwork and the value of hard work. I also learned that I wanted to get a good education so that I could find a job I would enjoy.

Americans would do this and it would be good for them. Agribusinesses could follow a similar model for American teenagers. Hire them to work during school breaks. It would be good for kids to do this kind of work. They would make a little money and learn valuable life skills. Granted, Dole would now have to figure out how to deal with this generation’s helicopter parents, nevertheless, it would be beneficial for the kids and the company.

Americans can and will do this kind of work given the right opportunity. Businesses seek immigrant labor for not only low wages but also for the “low maintenance” factor immigrant labor brings. There would be an adjustment period for business as they bring on more Americans to do the work, a period that would include some difficulties but undoubtedly Americans can and will do this kind of work.If all Americans need is the opportunity, now they have it. Be interesting to see how many beat the doors down for this.

[zoony]

Big supporter of latino labor in construction... but just want to throw out that often it is not all it is cracked up to be.

Most latino crews are all about speed of completion. Expect your jobsite to be a disaster and many details overlooked... and often with things like masonry expect the work to be poor

But, if you know that going in, you can save a ton of money.

[Fight for ole DC]

If all Americans need is the opportunity, now they have it. Be interesting to see how many beat the doors down for this.

If American businesses are serious about hiring Americans they could be more proactive creating specific opportunities. They could develop job programs in coordination with local school districts to hire students during school breaks. They could work with local unemployment offices/jobs programs to develop specific programs. Right now, they don't do enough because they are happy with the low cost/low maintenance immigrant labor which requires little effort on their part to find workers. Perhaps government incentives, such as tax breaks, would motivate businesses to do more to hire Americans.

[sjinhan]

If American businesses are serious about hiring Americans they could be more proactive creating specific opportunities. They could develop job programs in coordination with local school districts to hire students during school breaks. They could work with local unemployment offices/jobs programs to develop specific programs. Right now, they don't do enough because they are happy with the low cost/low maintenance immigrant labor which requires little effort on their part to find workers. Perhaps government incentives, such as tax breaks, would motivate businesses to do more to hire Americans.

you mean basically spoon feed our youth or jobless fellow Americans with jobs that you need to create programs to motivate the lazy into work. I am sure those lazy Americans will be more than happy with just being spoon feed with welfare...

Personally I think Immigration Reform and Welfare Reform needs to happen hand in hand but thats another topic altogether.

As far as I know, EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN, LEGAL OR ILLEGAL Immigrants that I know who REALLY wants to make a living one way or another has no problem getting a job.

It seems to me that people who are claiming there arent any jobs are the people who think too highly of themselves that they are refusing to take "less glamerous" jobs and holding out for a job that is "worthy". Seriously if thats not the case then those who claim they cant find a job are probably not even looking.

[#98QBKiller]

There are (were?) many Americans who would do this kind of work. For example, Dole Pineapple Company used to hire teenagers to work the pineapple fields during the summer in Hawaii. I know because I did it in the early 80s. Dole hired hundreds of kids to live on Lanai for the summer working 40 hours a week picking pineapples. We lived in dorms and worked the night shift, picking truck load after truck load of pineapples. It was very hard, dirty work. The first few weeks were tough as our bodies adjusted to the hard labor. Once we got used to it became easier. We learned a lot over the summer. We learned teamwork and the value of hard work. I also learned that I wanted to get a good education so that I could find a job I would enjoy.

Americans would do this and it would be good for them. Agribusinesses could follow a similar model for American teenagers. Hire them to work during school breaks. It would be good for kids to do this kind of work. They would make a little money and learn valuable life skills. Granted, Dole would now have to figure out how to deal with this generation’s helicopter parents, nevertheless, it would be beneficial for the kids and the company.

Americans can and will do this kind of work given the right opportunity. Businesses seek immigrant labor for not only low wages but also for the “low maintenance” factor immigrant labor brings. There would be an adjustment period for business as they bring on more Americans to do the work, a period that would include some difficulties but undoubtedly Americans can and will do this kind of work.

I pretty much agree that jobs like this would be good for American teenagers. IMO, they would learn a more valuable skill set working a manual labor job than they would working for McDonald's and if nothing else it would show them the importance of education.

[twa]

If American businesses are serious about hiring Americans they could be more proactive creating specific opportunities. They could develop job programs in coordination with local school districts to hire students during school breaks.

Schools and businesses here have been doing that for ages.
Vocational and industrial co-op programs were even going back in my school days.

Make Right to Work laws in more States and you might see a improvement

http://www.mackinac.org/10227
989-631-0900

MIDLAND - The latest state unemployment figures, released this morning by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, show that state right-to-work laws have a significant effect on unemployment rates, said Paul Kersey, director of labor policy for the Mackinac Center. In December 2008, states with right-to-work laws had an average unemployment rate of 6.2 percent, compared to 7.0 percent for states without right-to-work.

[Ax]

Legal immigrants are welcome. Illegal, not so much.

As for Americans, there are few left that are willing to do a job they feel is beneath them.

This includes those with college degrees who would rather collect unemployment, than take a job making less than what they think their "education" has bequeathed them. Even if the dollars are the same.

Add to that, all the people who had Mommy & Daddy supply them with every new gadget, tennis shoe, whatever-the-fad, car & insurance, college tuition, and everything else, from the day they were born, without having to really ever work for it, and you've gotta bunch of lazy, over privileged malcontents who are too ****ing good to get their hands dirty.

As much as people think they could, most couldn't do a single day of tough, manual labor. Much less make a living at it.

[Larry]

Admiring the number of people who appear to believe that if you don't like the free market, then break the law, and blame the people who aren't breaking the law.

[mcsluggo]

this is always a disingenous argument, in my opinion.

the argument basically boils down to: Immigrants aren't taking away jobs, because no American-born citizens would take those jobs at those low wages if the immigrants didn't.

is that a fair (non predudicial) defintition of the argument?

that argument is bunk. the wages paid in those jobs is so low (and the working conditions so poor) BECAUSE there are immigrants available to fill them. Of course.

What would happen to farm wages, and the construction wages discussed above if there were no immigration? obviously it would shoot up.


there are many pros and cons of immigration that can justifiably be discussed (starting with::: wht the eff would happen to prices of products for those of us who DON'T work in the fields if suddenly the cost of unskilled labor increased by 75% ? ) but the BS argument that those are jobs nobody else would take gets under my skin.


you can argue FOR immigration on humanitarian grounds. Legit

you can also argue FOR immigration on some economic benefit grounds as well... but you have to own up to the fact that the economic benefit derives from driving DOWN the wages of unskilled workers--- which makes our products cheaper and more competitive abroad, but ALSO increases domestic income inequality and disproportionatley hurts America's "working poor".

Immigration is obviously and unquestionably good for the imigrant (so a strong humanitarian argument).

Immigrationis NOT obviously and unquestionably good for the country where the immigrant emigrates from. (in relieves social pressure, but also drains away some of the country's most ambitions citizens)

Immigration IS obviously and unquestionably good for prices and terms of trade in the US.

Immigration is NOT obviously and unquestionably good for all segments of the US, however.

[mcsluggo]

Legal immigrants are welcome. Illegal, not so much.

As for Americans, there are few left that are willing to do a job they feel is beneath them.

This includes those with college degrees who would rather collect unemployment, than take a job making less than what they think their "education" has bequeathed them. Even if the dollars are the same.

Add to that, all the people who had Mommy & Daddy supply them with every new gadget, tennis shoe, whatever-the-fad, car & insurance, college tuition, and everything else, from the day they were born, without having to really ever work for it, and you've gotta bunch of lazy, over privileged malcontents who are too ****ing good to get their hands dirty.

As much as people think they could, most couldn't do a single day of tough, manual labor. Much less make a living at it.

this, of course, is an EVEN MORE disingenuous argument.

[boofMcboof]

this is always a disingenous argument, in my opinion.

the argument basically boils down to: Immigrants aren't taking away jobs, because no American-born citizens would take those jobs at those low wages if the immigrants didn't.

is that a fair (non predudicial) defintition of the argument?

that argument is bunk. the wages paid in those jobs is so low (and the working conditions so poor) BECAUSE there are immigrants available to fill them. Of course.

What would happen to farm wages, and the construction wages discussed above if there were no immigration? obviously it would shoot up.




In the real world, no matter where you turn there will be competition in some way shape or form. Doesn't matter if you're at the bottom or top of the salary totem pole, citizen or illegal immigrant. If there's someone who's willing to do the same job for less, you can either compete or whine about it.

[Destino]

Big supporter of latino labor in construction... but just want to throw out that often it is not all it is cracked up to be.

Most latino crews are all about speed of completion. Expect your jobsite to be a disaster and many details overlooked... and often with things like masonry expect the work to be poor

But, if you know that going in, you can save a ton of money.

What you're describing is a management issue not a worker issue. You send out a team of workers with no manager and you'll get issues like this all the time. This isn't just construction either, walk into a poorly managed store and you'll see it looks horrible.

I've worked sales in construction before and every business owner says the same thing. They'd rather hire workers from latin america because they work harder and have a more positive attitude (a point that is too often unappreciated). Let's face it no American is raised thinking "I want to dig ditches" so when life dumps them there they aren't happy. Immigrant workers in search of jobs were raised hearing "I hope we can put food on the table tonight" so when they have a steady job they feel like they made it.

It's not a poor reflection on Americans or Latinos. It's just a case of expectations and backgrounds. There is a show on MTV called "cut off" that illustrates the point. A bunch of pampered women that never do anything are "cut off" by their benefactors.... and put up in a house and asked to do almost nothing but make their own food and clean up after themselves. To them that's hell.

It's all about the road you've been traveling.

[DCsportsfan53]

Racist much?


I mean, if that's all you took away from what I wrote then ok I guess. It's a generalization, sure, but if you were in these kinds of industries you'd understand. FWIW I'm white and my family's been here 3+ generations, I'm not being racist, I'm just speaking from what I see from Americans in my racial group. The hypersensitivity to racism and PC these days is so annoying.

[mcsluggo]

In the real world, no matter where you turn there will be competition in some way shape or form. Doesn't matter if you're at the bottom or top of the salary totem pole, citizen or illegal immigrant. If there's someone who's willing to do the same job for less, you can either compete or whine about it.

hmmm. ok



1) it might surprise you to note that I personally am one of the Americans that UNQUESTIONABLY benefit from dirt cheap unskilled labor (it simulataneusly makes my prices lower AND pushes up MY wages, as skilled labor becomes relatively scarcer AND is supported by a greater stock of cheaper unskilled labor)

2) but in any case... to describe a phenomenum is ... well to describe it. (not excuse, or whine, or tremble about it) The cranky old grandpa retort neither refutes nor supports the description. i am sorry but this is just a smug little reach-around post that really neither adds-to nor challenges anything posted previously. but rather gives you an opportunity to bang your cane on your desk, and play pocket pool :)

[Corcaigh]

It's a cute campaign but missing the point. The arguments against illegal immigration aren't that they are taking jobs from citizens.

[mcsluggo]

It's a cute campaign but missing the point. The arguments against illegal immigration aren't that they are taking jobs from citizens.

what IS the argument against illegal immigration, then?

[renaissance]

It's a cute campaign but missing the point. The arguments against illegal immigration aren't that they are taking jobs from citizens.

Go ask avg middle class anti-immigration Joe on the street, and yes, this is one of his arguments.

[Maximus71]

I work in the auto repair industry and I agree with you 110%. I know if I'm ever starting my own shop I'm looking for the legal immigrant who didn't grow up here because just looking around my shop, those are the guys who work HARD and don't complain. It's the white boys who whine about every job they're given and are looking for every opportunity to go home early. Now, even assuming you had to pay them equally, which one are you going hire?

Watch out dude, you are going to be labeled a racist, a white hater and not a patriot left wing nut :ols::silly:

[Destino]

It's a cute campaign but missing the point. The arguments against illegal immigration aren't that they are taking jobs from citizens.

Perfect. Then let's increase quotas or implement worker visas so US businesses can continue to access an obviously needed labor pool? If this isn't about jobs and isn't about too many Hispanics, you should be all for this.

[Tweedr01]

I mean, if that's all you took away from what I wrote then ok I guess. It's a generalization, sure, but if you were in these kinds of industries you'd understand. FWIW I'm white and my family's been here 3+ generations, I'm not being racist, I'm just speaking from what I see from Americans in my racial group. The hypersensitivity to racism and PC these days is so annoying.

I was just a best man in a wedding for my friend who does auto work in our area. Hasn't been able to hold down a job in the industry because just about every shop here does work off the books. All the employees are 'self-employed', and get paid by the time they spend on each car. Can you guess what the majority of workers are? Yep, you got it, illegal aliens. He can't work for $5 an hour, which is compounded by the fact that he only gets paid if there is work. So he basically has to sit around and wait for work to come to the shop, if it does great $5 an hour (not an exageration from one of the shops), if not well crap he just sat there for the day and made no money. Dude's got bills, he can't pay them because lots of shops run shady business.

Also, please don't believe I never worked in 'these industries'. I built decks in HS and worked the night shift at FreightLiner in Gainesville while at college. Both companies hired US Citizens and legal immigrants, and paid accordingly.

[Baculus]

It's a cute campaign but missing the point. The arguments against illegal immigration aren't that they are taking jobs from citizens.

Actually, that has been an argument in the past against illegal immigration, that they take jobs away from citizens and/or legal immigrants.

[Corcaigh]

Perfect. Then let's increase quotas or implement worker visas so US businesses can continue to access an obviously needed labor pool? If this isn't about jobs and isn't about too many Hispanics, you should be all for this.

I'm 100% in favor of a proper temporary visa program and then a system that allows employers to verify employment eligibility.

With that in place, you not only get insurance, benefits, and many security issues taken care of, you have proper reporting of demand (and wages) too so that the program can be adjusted.

Furthermore by reducing the scale of the illegal immigration problem it means that law enforcement resources can be better directed at serious crime. And I think most of society would be willing to take a much harder line on those entering illegally.

[DCsportsfan53]

I was just a best man in a wedding for my friend who does auto work in our area. Hasn't been able to hold down a job in the industry because just about every shop here does work off the books. All the employees are 'self-employed', and get paid by the time they spend on each car. Can you guess what the majority of workers are? Yep, you got it, illegal aliens. He can't work for $5 an hour, which is compounded by the fact that he only gets paid if there is work. So he basically has to sit around and wait for work to come to the shop, if it does great $5 an hour (not an exageration from one of the shops), if not well crap he just sat there for the day and made no money. Dude's got bills, he can't pay them because lots of shops run shady business.

Also, please don't believe I never worked in 'these industries'. I built decks in HS and worked the night shift at FreightLiner in Gainesville while at college. Both companies hired US Citizens and legal immigrants, and paid accordingly.


I don't know his background or history but there's no illegals here at my shop in NOVA and I'm definitely not paid under the table or underpaid. Actually, we've been hiring over the last few months. I have a hard time believing it's that hard to find work in the auto industry right now, from my experience a respected experienced tech ALWAYS has a job. I've actually had other shops trying to recruit me from here and offering 50k plus so again, something's missing in that story.

[sjinhan]

It's a cute campaign but missing the point. The arguments against illegal immigration aren't that they are taking jobs from citizens.

you are right that the arguement against the illegals shouldnt be about taking jobs from citizens. However thats what has been used out there.

The real arguement about illegal immigrants should be about reforming immigration laws so that workers can LEGAL come and work as needed and securing the borders one way or another so that all immigrants need to come through right legal channels to the US.

[Corcaigh]

what IS the argument against illegal immigration, then?

Industries need the workers but because it's done outside the law, it creates a whole host of problems - a segment of society that's not adequately addressed by our laws (regarding education, healthcare and many other areas). We pretend the problem doesn't exist until it reaches breaking point, like it has in some communities.

[sjinhan]

I was just a best man in a wedding for my friend who does auto work in our area. Hasn't been able to hold down a job in the industry because just about every shop here does work off the books. All the employees are 'self-employed', and get paid by the time they spend on each car. Can you guess what the majority of workers are? Yep, you got it, illegal aliens. He can't work for $5 an hour, which is compounded by the fact that he only gets paid if there is work. So he basically has to sit around and wait for work to come to the shop, if it does great $5 an hour (not an exageration from one of the shops), if not well crap he just sat there for the day and made no money. Dude's got bills, he can't pay them because lots of shops run shady business.

Also, please don't believe I never worked in 'these industries'. I built decks in HS and worked the night shift at FreightLiner in Gainesville while at college. Both companies hired US Citizens and legal immigrants, and paid accordingly.


how hard is he REALLY looking? Has he tried looking for work elsewhere other that few shops around his house? If what you are telling is true maybe he has to relocate to where the jobs are instead of just saying put and whining.

I know even for illegals.. if they have real skils sets like that they wont be paid just $5 per hour and if they were they would go elsewhere for work asap.

[Fight for ole DC]

you mean basically spoon feed our youth or jobless fellow Americans with jobs that you need to create programs to motivate the lazy into work.

Please allow me to clarify. I certainly do not mean spoon feeding teenagers. What I mean is that businesses are perfectly happy with the status quo since they get cheap labor they can exploit with less-than-desirable wages, benefits, and working conditions, and a “gravy train” of willing immigrant workers waiting for the word to get out they are hiring.

If American businesses WANT to hire Americans they can make it happen via jobs programs. No bureaucracy needed!!! Simply coordinate hiring with local schools and job programs. For example, farmer in Yuma, Arizona could work with the Yuma School District to hire kids to work during school breaks. When I picked pineapples on Lanai during the summer of 1983, there was one school who sent the football team to work in the fields. Their coach went with them and served as their boss at work. They were the hardest working group and the envy of all the work groups on the island because they could pick more pineapples than any other group (not to mention the bonuses they collected for exceeding their daily goals).

Yes, many kids are lazy and are seemingly unwilling to do work they think is beneath them. However, when offered an opportunity to do this kind of work as part of a group with their peers they are more willing to give it try. And, they are surprisingly effective when they put their mind to doing a good job.

[boofMcboof]

hmmm. ok



1) it might surprise you to note that I personally am one of the Americans that UNQUESTIONABLY benefit from dirt cheap unskilled labor (it simulataneusly makes my prices lower AND pushes up MY wages, as skilled labor becomes relatively scarcer AND is supported by a greater stock of cheaper unskilled labor)

2) but in any case... to describe a phenomenum is ... well to describe it. (not excuse, or whine, or tremble about it) The cranky old grandpa retort neither refutes nor supports the description. i am sorry but this is just a smug little reach-around post that really neither adds-to nor challenges anything posted previously. but rather gives you an opportunity to bang your cane on your desk, and play pocket pool :)


A phenomenon? As far as I know competition with work has been around a very long time. I'll always defend people who put in hard work for less over people who have a sense of entitlement through their birthright.

Strip out all the political boundaries of this discussion and see it as what it is. Someone is willing to do the same job for less. What are you going to do about it? You can do the same job for less. You can produce better work for the same wage. You can look for a better job or you can complain and vote in some measure to protect yourself.

Then ask yourself what mentality is better for this country in the long run.

[sjinhan]

Please allow me to clarify. I certainly do not mean spoon feeding teenagers. What I mean is that businesses are perfectly happy with the status quo since they get cheap labor they can exploit with less-than-desirable wages, benefits, and working conditions, and a “gravy train” of willing immigrant workers waiting for the word to get out they are hiring.

If American businesses WANT to hire Americans they can make it happen via jobs programs. No bureaucracy needed!!! Simply coordinate hiring with local schools and job programs. For example, farmer in Yuma, Arizona could work with the Yuma School District to hire kids to work during school breaks. When I picked pineapples on Lanai during the summer of 1983, there was one school who sent the football team to work in the fields. Their coach went with them and served as their boss at work. They were the hardest working group and the envy of all the work groups on the island because they could pick more pineapples than any other group (not to mention the bonuses they collected for exceeding their daily goals).

Yes, many kids are lazy and are seemingly unwilling to do work they think is beneath them. However, when offered an opportunity to do this kind of work as part of a group with their peers they are more willing to give it try. And, they are surprisingly effective when they put their mind to doing a good job.

well if you are talking about having simple community programs like that then sure go for it. However unless I am proven otherwise, the times have changed. The kids are not like that anymore. Heck I am relatively young (only 29 years old) and when I was in highschool little over 10 years ago.. the kids were still willing to work. But when I talk with my cousins who are teenagers, the times sure have changed...

[GritzRgreat]

I work construction and without the imported labor, the costs would skyrocket. Immigrants, latinos, Mexicans don't lay out of work. They work sun up to sun down and at least 6 days a week, smiling! They will literally work themselves to death!

On the other hand the few "American" crews left are whiney, argumentative babies, who on any given day have half the crew layed out do to workman's comp issues or just plain lazy!

I will take a Mexican/Latino over any American anyday!



I've worked contruction (house framer) in the Carolina heat for close to 20 years now, and without the imported CHEAP labor i could have made a lot more money. cheap labor does piss poor/half ass work. sure you can pay ten border jumpers 8 bucks an hour & have them throw a house together in a week or so, only to have someone with half a brain come back & fix all the **** ups.

i can hold my own with any carpenter alive. young & old, black, white or brown. and i will never undercut a fellow American just to save a couple bucks on labor.

[Tweedr01]

I don't know his background or history but there's no illegals here at my shop in NOVA and I'm definitely not paid under the table or underpaid. Actually, we've been hiring over the last few months. I have a hard time believing it's that hard to find work in the auto industry right now, from my experience a respected experienced tech ALWAYS has a job. I've actually had other shops trying to recruit me from here and offering 50k plus so again, something's missing in that story.

Where in NOVA? I know the guy has been looking but in between he has put a lot of time into flipping cars. It's actually the only reason he has any money to begin with, but he can't put that on any resume. Most of the shops he has worked at are right in Woodbridge/Manassas area. My wife works at a Honda shop and has tried to get him into the service dept, but the service director hasn't been the best about returning calls.

I'm not trying to say its every shop, but around our area it's a majority. The shops that do everything by the book are fully staffed, and accept the applications, but let him know that they are not hiring.

[Tweedr01]

how hard is he REALLY looking? Has he tried looking for work elsewhere other that few shops around his house? If what you are telling is true maybe he has to relocate to where the jobs are instead of just saying put and whining.

I know even for illegals.. if they have real skils sets like that they wont be paid just $5 per hour and if they were they would go elsewhere for work asap.


Wow, right off the bat some snide remarks, good for you. Dude lives almost in Clifton (think Yates Ford Rd), and has had jobs from Route 1 (Stafford/Woodbridge) to 28 (Manassas/Herndon). We have been trying to get my wife's service director to get in touch with him, but he's been very slow about getting around to it (mostly due to the amount of work he is doing himself).

How many illegals do you know? Actually, how many illegals do you know with real skill sets? Now can you take that number and let me know how many you know that live in Woodbridge/Stafford/Manassas area? Thx!

[GritzRgreat]

. but just want to throw out that often it is not all it is cracked up to be.

Most latino crews are all about speed of completion. Expect your jobsite to be a disaster and many details overlooked... and often with things like masonry expect the work to be poor

But, if you know that going in, you can save a ton of money.


happens all the time down here.

[Sandman69]

what IS the argument against illegal immigration, then?

Umm... That they are here illegally?

[Larry]

Strip out all the political boundaries of this discussion and see it as what it is. Someone is willing to do the same job for less. What are you going to do about it? You can do the same job for less. You can produce better work for the same wage. You can look for a better job or you can complain and vote in some measure to protect yourself.

Then ask yourself what mentality is better for this country in the long run.

Wow you're right.

If all you do is ignore our nation's borders, and our laws, then the criminal employers become honest businessmen, and American workers become evil lazy bums.

[Larry]

Heck I am relatively young (only 29 years old) and when I was in highschool little over 10 years ago.. the kids were still willing to work. But when I talk with my cousins who are teenagers, the times sure have changed...

Permit me to point out that I believe that every generation has said that throughout human history.

:)

[mcsluggo]

A phenomenon? As far as I know competition with work has been around a very long time. I'll always defend people who put in hard work for less over people who have a sense of entitlement through their birthright.

Strip out all the political boundaries of this discussion and see it as what it is. Someone is willing to do the same job for less. What are you going to do about it? You can do the same job for less. You can produce better work for the same wage. You can look for a better job or you can complain and vote in some measure to protect yourself.

ok.. not "phenomenon". just simply "issue."

THe isue being described in the thread is whether or not immigration displaces "native" workers. Those facts can be discussed at arms length without tossing in discussions of "entitlement" on one side, or whether foreigners "deserve" to be here from the other side.

A) Does immigration drive down the wage for unskilled labor? the answer seems a clear yes.

b) If the answer to A) is yes, does that increase income inequality? the answer to that HAS to be yes, as well. increasing the stock of low-skill workers DIRECTLY affects this ratio by DIRECTLY increasing the number of poorer-than-average people living in the US. it also drives down the wage of unskilled workers AND pushes up the wages of skilled workers.


those seem to me to be somewhat clear empirical facts. How you spin those facts depends on your political viewpoints on the issue (and which side's sense of entitlement you want to whine about)

[Tweedr01]

Permit me to point out that I believe that every generation has said that throughout human history.

:)

Ugh, you don't mean we are turning into our parents do you?

[Darth Tater]

If one is unwilling or unable to supply his goods or services at a price which meets the demanders requirements, the one unable or unwilling does not have a job taken away from him.

[Park City Skins]

Responding to the OP,I like it. Very funny and it's a great idea. In response to a few others,while I agree with you in general,(having been in the carpentry business for all those years),but I will say this. I worked as hard or harder than any of my latino/hispanic cousins during my time. That's the reason why we got along so well. Again,agreed with the general statement you made.

[twa]

i can hold my own with any carpenter alive. young & old, black, white or brown. and i will never undercut a fellow American just to save a couple bucks on labor.


I like you :cool:
I have a few regrets as far as choosing to work my ass off all these yrs,but I will never regret not hiring illegals.

[Larry]

If one is unwilling or unable to supply his goods or services at a price which meets the demanders requirements, the one unable or unwilling does not have a job taken away from him.

If one is unwilling to pay market prices for something, that does not make it the seller's fault.

[zoony]

What you're describing is a management issue not a worker issue.


I did a poor job, then. It is a worker issue, leave no doubt.

(probably to do with the fact that skilled labor might not have a hard time finding work in Mexico)

[Madison Redskin]

If one is unwilling to pay market prices for something, that does not make it the seller's fault.

If one is unwilling to work for market prices, that does not make it the payor's fault.

[Larry]

If one is unwilling to work for market prices, that does not make it the payor's fault.

:secret:"Market prices" does not mean "criminal market prices".

If "I can't get enough workers, legally, at that price", then that price isn't market price. By definition.

[sjinhan]

Permit me to point out that I believe that every generation has said that throughout human history.

:)

lol yeah i know.. when the older folks give my generate crap and working hard... i get the urge to tell them .. "Hey wait until you guys get a look at the ones following after us!" lol

[sjinhan]

Wow, right off the bat some snide remarks, good for you. Dude lives almost in Clifton (think Yates Ford Rd), and has had jobs from Route 1 (Stafford/Woodbridge) to 28 (Manassas/Herndon). We have been trying to get my wife's service director to get in touch with him, but he's been very slow about getting around to it (mostly due to the amount of work he is doing himself).

How many illegals do you know? Actually, how many illegals do you know with real skill sets? Now can you take that number and let me know how many you know that live in Woodbridge/Stafford/Manassas area? Thx!

i am not trying to be snide about it... I am going to grad school part time so I have some opportunity to talk with fellow grad students who havent enter the workforce yet. Alot of them complain about how the job market is slim and blah blah blah. While it might be true that the job market is weaker than it has been in the past, most of them realize that they havent looked hard or wide enough after I get them to actually list how and where they have been looking. Your friend there might think he is looking hard but he might just need some outside perspective to see if he is going about it the right way. Anyways if I offended you then I apologize because I didnt mean it that way.

For your other question, I don't know any close personally but I do know alot of people who are stuck in the limbo in the US immigration process where their status is up in there air for 1-6 years with no clear idea of when they will get a green card. Usually after 2-3 years of waiting alot of them face with a dilemma to work possibly "under the table" because they are running out of patience and more importantly money.

Anyways I don't have to know illegals personally to know that its just common sense that you have to pay well for good hands regardless of if they are legal or illegal. Those illegal mechanics you speak of are not bound to those $5 per hour shops. If they are good at what they do they look for better opportunities and leave when they find it.

[capt1an chaos]

Lower the compensation, don't take it away from 1.2 million people just because you are a Republican that wants the economy to fail under Obama. By not extending the unemployment they in turn are BADLY hurting the economy and I assure you that snowe, collins and brown will all be voted out come November.

[capt1an chaos]

Or constantly extended unemployment compensation.

A inconvenient truth.....Hunger is great motivator to work.


:doh:

[LaxBuddy21]

Yea the reason Americans are unwilling to do most of these jobs is because the sense of entitlement the government has supported. Americans dont want to work hard because they dont have to. Hispanics come from a country where you work hard or you starve and so does your family. We dont let that happen in this country so it takes away the motivation for many. I have no problem with immigrants taking jobs as long as they are legal. I know how hard they work and I think the American work force needs more of that to motivate the rest of the country.

[Larry]

Yea the reason Americans are unwilling to do most of these jobs is because the sense of entitlement the government has supported. Americans dont want to work hard because they dont have to. Hispanics come from a country where you work hard or you starve and so does your family.

Yeah, just think how great this country would be if workers had to take whatever their employers offer, or their families will starve.

[LaxBuddy21]

Yeah, just think how great this country would be if workers had to take whatever their employers offer, or their families will starve.

Im sensing a bit of sarcasm. But employers want the best employees and to have the best employees you need to pay competitive wages. The government sets minimum wage to keep companies from paying extremely low wages for unskilled jobs.

[DCsportsfan53]

i am not trying to be snide about it... I am going to grad school part time so I have some opportunity to talk with fellow grad students who havent enter the workforce yet. Alot of them complain about how the job market is slim and blah blah blah. While it might be true that the job market is weaker than it has been in the past, most of them realize that they havent looked hard or wide enough after I get them to actually list how and where they have been looking. Your friend there might think he is looking hard but he might just need some outside perspective to see if he is going about it the right way. Anyways if I offended you then I apologize because I didnt mean it that way.


Just to add, auto repair is a very in demand skill and there's constant turnover in this industry. Cars don't suddenly break at a lower rate because the economy is bad and, given our public transportation situation, it's pretty much impossible for most to get by without a car. Something has to give. Especially considering DC is one of the most recession proof economies in the country (and the aforementioned crappiness of the public transportation), in my experience, if you have the qualifications you have a job as a technician. I'm not trying to knock your friend but that's just what I see out there. Sure, he may have an ugly commute (60 miles, 2 hours minimum each day for me) but this is an industry that a qualified individual should not have a problem making a living at right now, in the DC metro area. I'm not saying get rich or anything, believe me, but make a living, yeah.



Yea the reason Americans are unwilling to do most of these jobs is because the sense of entitlement the government has supported. Americans dont want to work hard because they dont have to. Hispanics come from a country where you work hard or you starve and so does your family. We dont let that happen in this country so it takes away the motivation for many. I have no problem with immigrants taking jobs as long as they are legal. I know how hard they work and I think the American work force needs more of that to motivate the rest of the country.

I agree with this to an extent. There's certainly other factors and it's certainly not the rule (for example, I like to consider myself something of a hard working, blue collar type) but as a general trend I definitely agree. A lot of Americans (including US born children of immigrants) just don't have a real understanding of work ethic and the value of a dollar. A lot of us my age grew up in the waning years of the economic dominance we enjoyed pretty much since the end of the second World War. Habits and learnings are difficult to overcome for some until faced with rock bottom and we, as a society, have largely accepted the premise that people shouldn't be allowed to fall that far. Therefore they never learn and we all help support them.

[Special K]

I recognize the work ethic of many Latinos, particularly in regards to manual labor. However, there needs to be a way that this is done in a legal context. This is why I am very much in support of a major guest worker program in this country. I think that would be a significant step forward in this entire immigration issue.

While we're on the subject, I would also like the feds to start taking our border security and this entire immigration debate a bit more seriously and stop dicking around. But of course, no national politician wants to touch this issue with a ten foot pole for fear of their own personal political repercussions.


what IS the argument against illegal immigration, then?
For me, the argument revolves around the additional burden they place on our public programs.

[twa]

:doh:

You ever been hungry?...I have,and I have worked my ass off to try to make sure me and mine never are again.
By what right are unemployment payments extended?...much less extended yet again.
File for welfare IF they qualify

I would also be in favor of changing food stamps to simply basic staples.

[19Skins72]

what IS the argument against illegal immigration, then?

The argument against them are that they take advantage of whatever public service they can at the tax payers expense, and that they pose a serious security risk.

You are welcome to debate the merits of their economic impact - there are two sides to that argument and both have merit.

As for the security issue, feel free to try to convince me it's a non issue. I'll check back tomorrow with a bowl of popcorn in hand.

For the record, I do not believe illegal immigrants are taking our jobs.

[GSF]

:secret:"Market prices" does not mean "criminal market prices".

If "I can't get enough workers, legally, at that price", then that price isn't market price. By definition.

I think that probably varies greatly from region to region across the country. I own a landscape company and use Latinos. I pay very well, but have never been able to keep any white guys worth a damn because they just don't want to do the labor in the hot months when we're the most busy. They have plenty of opportunities to make similar money in more comfortable environments. I'd be sunk without the Latinos. I am a big proponent of a guest worker program. These folks could be positive contributors to our society given the opportunity.

[Teller]

I'm glad to hear that illegal immigrants only work in farms. Doesn't seem like it, but judging by this article, I'm clearly mistaken.

[Blackest Eyes]

No one will take these jobs. Farm work in reasonable weather would be hell to the vast majority of Americans. Farmers do not get anywhere near enough credit for the work they have to do.

[Jumbo]

Illegal aliens have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.
- Robert Orben

[Larry]

I think that probably varies greatly from region to region across the country. I own a landscape company and use Latinos. I pay very well, but have never been able to keep any white guys worth a damn because they just don't want to do the labor in the hot months when we're the most busy. They have plenty of opportunities to make similar money in more comfortable environments. I'd be sunk without the Latinos. I am a big proponent of a guest worker program. These folks could be positive contributors to our society given the opportunity.

Then you are not paying market wages.

You're paying the same money as jobs that aren't as unpleasant.

----------

Look, there are lots of things about this issue that frankly can't be argued. (At least not by loons.)

The fact that the illegal market exists, drives down the wages at the entire low-wage end of the marketplace.

They also reduce the prices to consumers of industries which use low-wage labor.

They take jobs away from legal workers. (They do this by underbidding them, to the point where the legal workers say "I'm not gonna do that job for that price.")

Now, whether these things are good for the nation as a whole, or bad? That's something which


a) Can be debated forever.

(And nobody does "debated forever" like Tailgate.)

b) And nobody can ever prove that their opinion is the correct one. The debate will always be one of opinions.

c) (And, I think, frankly, almost everybody will agree that some immigration is good for the country. Frankly, what we're doing is haggling over how much is the right amount.)

[Box76]

I am a home builder and anyone who says they can't get by without the cut throat illegals is full of BS. There are and will continue to be American citizens willing to work for a 'fair' wage. I know lots of contractors who use them because they make more money but in turn they have to lower their prices. Doesnt make sense to me. Before this influx I charged more yet had to pay more. It all works out the same except the 'undocumented workers' are beginning to control the market forcing everyone else out. Guess what? They are now wanting more money. The low prices were a deception to gain a toehold in our markets. Grant them amnesty and watch what happens to your cheap labor.




Benjamin Franklin said, "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both".

[polywog999]

I am a home builder and anyone who says they can't get by without the cut throat illegals is full of BS. There are and will continue to be American citizens willing to work for a 'fair' wage. I know lots of contractors who use them because they make more money but in turn they have to lower their prices. Doesnt make sense to me. Before this influx I charged more yet had to pay more. It all works out the same except the 'undocumented workers' are beginning to control the market forcing everyone else out. Guess what? They are now wanting more money. The low prices were a deception to gain a toehold in our markets. Grant them amnesty and watch what happens to your cheap labor.




Benjamin Franklin said, "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both".
If anyone can take my job, then they should. Ether I'm not a hard enough worker or they are willing to do the same job for less. More power to em. I don't work for peanuts and I don't want to work for a cheap *******.

[GSF]

Then you are not paying market wages.

You're paying the same money as jobs that aren't as unpleasant.



And you are over-simplifying. I pay $11-$12 an hour for landscaping. Well above market rate. I speak from 15 years of direct experience. You speak from theory.

Most of the Americans I've hired either move on or have turned out to be useless and unreliable.

[Larry]

And you are over-simplifying. I pay $11-$12 an hour for landscaping. Well above market rate. I speak from 15 years of direct experience. You speak from theory.

Most of the Americans I've hired either move on or have turned out to be useless and unreliable.

I quoted your exact words. Pointed out to you exactly what you said.

Please tell me which part of your words I quoted, don't say exactly what I pointed out to you.

Want a better class employee? Pay more.

Want your employees to go somewhere else? (Except for the ones that are too sucky to go somewhere else?) Keep paying what you're paying.

That's the way this thing called "the market" works. (Or at least, that's what all the "conservatives" who genuflect at this particular altar whenever we aren't talking about driving down wages, keep telling me.)

[GSF]

You don't understand Larry. That's ok. Other people that run busineses know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Larry]

You don't understand Larry. That's ok. Other people that run busineses know exactly what I'm talking about.

I understand perfectly you sanctimonious piece of ****.

You don't like paying your workers enough to attract legal workers. You've decided that "whatever the criminals will take" is "the market price", and that, therefore, if legal workers won't take that much, then it's because they're evil.

This country has been looking the other way when people hire criminals that businesses have decided that they're entitled to hire workers, and quality workers at that, at that price.

----------

Y'know, I've been buying widgets for 30 years, now. Been paying $20 a widget.

And the only people who'll sell me widgets at that price, are people selling stolen widgets, or people selling widgets that are defective and won't work.

I keep offering $20 to the legal widget makers, but they won't take it.

Well, some of 'em do. But their either good for nothing widgets, or if they are good widgets, then they leave and sell their widgets to somebody else who pays more. And I'm left buying the stolen widgets and the good for nothing ones.

That's what's wrong with this country: Here I am, offering above the market price, and the market won't sell to me.

(Problem couldn't possibly be me.)

----------

You want to paint yourself as an expert?

How much would the "market price" for landscape labor (of whatever quality of worker you consider to be acceptable) be, if there were no illegal immigrants in the US?

If Obama were to wave a magic wand, and instantly deport every illegal in the US, how much would you have to pay, to attract the kinds of workers you want? I you, and all of your competitors, had no choice but to hire legal workers. (And if all of you are bidding for the same, legal, workers.)

Whatever that number is, that is the market wage.

Anything else is "the market wage, under the effects of massive criminal behavior".

There's a lot of sanctimonious attitude in this thread, announcing that what's Wrong With America is that them lazy Americans just won't work as cheap as the criminals will. That them damned lazy Americans think they're entitled to more money, or better working conditions, or something.

Well those people are right, there is a problem with people feeling entitled, here. It's the people who think they're entitled to break the law if it gets them something cheaper.

[Cdowwe]

No reason to take their jobs when the govt will pay you to sit on your butt

[GSF]

Sanctimonious? LOL. I'm not the guy hacking away at the keyboard 8 hours a day lecturing the tailgate about every freakin topic that comes up. And you call me rightous. Why don't you log off the net for 10 minutes and go take a stab at the real world and maybe you'd have a clue about business you dumbass.

My hiring of Latinos, and btw I never said they are illegal, has nothing to do with wages and everything to do with reliablity. The simple truth is the vast majority of Americans are not interested is pushing a weedeater around in 95 degree heat 9 hours a day. Most Americans want to get an education and get into a career where they can use their brains. Sure there's college students, which I've hired many of, but unfortunately Summer jobs just aren't that important to them, and it's just a matter of time until they blow off work b/c of a sweet party the night before or whatever. What's left is mostly degenrates like addicts, alcholics, ect that most certainly will eiither fall of the wagon and dissappear or just rip you off.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Nice tantrum though. you should get into politics.

[Jumbo]

I understand perfectly you sanctimonious piece of ****.

You could have done something much like that in this context with just a slight but key modification and remained out of trouble (if it matters).


Sanctimonious? LOL. I'm not the guy hacking away at the keyboard 8 hours a day lecturing the tailgate about every freakin topic that comes up. And you call me rightous. Why don't you log off the net for 10 minutes and go take a stab at the real world and maybe you'd have a clue about business you dumbass.


The same applies to you, but you both pushed it too far, too personal. See you guys in a week.

[Teller]

c) (And, I think, frankly, almost everybody will agree that some
immigration is good for the country. Frankly, what we're doing is haggling over how much is the right amount.)

Legal? Yes. Illegal? No. Not even "some."

[TheDoyler23]

I have a relative who is a master electrician and carpenter. He spends most of his time fixing shoddy work done by shady contractors who fail to get permits and choose to hire unskilled labor to do skilled work.

[Thiebear]

Who ever said we shouldn't hire 4million legal mexican immigrants to do the job at say.

Even us whiny caucazoids dont believe its okay to make these hard workers do it all day and all night as i've been reading for no money because they can't complain to the authorities.

[Duckus]

Does anyone know when Colbert is going to do this? I heard he is going to go work in a farm for the show.