DB: 21 Killed in Mexican Shootout.

[JMS]

My wife grew up in Arizona about 15 miles from the boarder where this occured.. When she lived there she had to endure an hour and a half hour buss trip to school one way. They were about 50 miles removed form the nearest emergency vehicle or law enforcement officer....

She recounts all the illegals who would come to their home in the middle of the desert looking for water.. Which her family provided. The people down there today have it totally different. There are many many more illegals today than their were back in ghe 70's and their is a huge crime element too.




21 Killed In Mexican Shootout
(http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/21-killed-in-mexican-shootout/drug-war/?cid=cs:headline13)

Twenty-one people died and six others were wounded on Thursday in a gun fight between rival drug and trafficking gangs near the Arizona border. The violence took place on a dirt road in a primary avenue for moving drugs and immigrants near Nogales, Mexico. According to the Sonora State Attorney General's Office, police captured nine people at the crime, six of whom had been wounded in the fire fight, along with eight vehicles and seven weapons. Officials believe that all of the victims were gang members. Drug violence has now claimed more than 23,000 lives in Mexico since late 2006.

[Duncan]

"the border is as safe as it ever has been"
Barack Obama - 01/01/2010

[Hubbs]

"the border is as safe as it ever has been"
Barack Obama - 01/01/2010

Well, that's probably pretty accurate. :pfft:

[Predicto]

21 dead in mexican shootout?

What, was Clint Eastwood there?

[JMS]

21 dead in mexican shootout?

What, was Clint Eastwood there?

23,000 lives claimed in Mexico drug violence since late 2006. That's more people than we've lost in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over the same period times 5.

That's freaking nuts.

[Redskins Diehard]

21 dead in mexican shootout?

What, was Clint Eastwood there?
Whatever happened to the good old mexican standoff?

[Ellis]

"the border is as safe as it ever has been"
Barack Obama - 01/01/2010
That's a safe quote right there.
:ols:

[illone]

And people wonder why the politicians here are trying to pass laws to make this stop.

:doh:

[r3dsk1ns4L1fe]

And people wonder why the politicians here are trying to pass laws to make this stop.

:doh:

how are passing laws going to make this stop? this happened in MEXICO, I'm sure stray bullets won't travel 15 miles into Arizona. the Drug "War" isn't winnable and the cartels are getting bigger, stronger and more influential in Mexico. Illegal immigration is a touchy subject for me because both my parents came here illegally, although I completely understand the issue. I feel for many of them because like may parents, they're here for opportunities that just aren't available in our countries. This sucks because now the drug cartels are starting to exploit them which further complicates the immigration issue.

[Destino]

And people wonder why the politicians here are trying to pass laws to make this stop.

:doh:

I must have missed the laws they are trying to pass concerning the drug war. Illegal immigration and the drug war are different issues. The solution for one does nothing to stop the other.

[illone]

how are passing laws going to make this stop? this happened in MEXICO, I'm sure stray bullets won't travel 15 miles into Arizona. the Drug "War" isn't winnable and the cartels are getting bigger, stronger and more influential in Mexico. Illegal immigration is a touchy subject for me because both my parents came here illegally, although I completely understand the issue. I feel for many of them because like may parents, they're here for opportunities that just aren't available in our countries. This sucks because now the drug cartels are starting to exploit them which further complicates the immigration issue.




Most people here in AZ could care less about illegals.

I know I don't. Most of the people and families I meet or run into are hard working people like myself just trying to make a better life for themselves. I don't have any issue with that, nor do the politicians here.

It's the violence that comes with it that has most families worried. If your family came here and wasn't violent towards citizens here, then you shouldn't be so touchy about it because your family isn't part of the problem.

The lawmakers have to do SOMETHING, and you'd probably understand that if you lived here.

It's easy to point the finger from afar, but what do you suggest the state of AZ do to protect the border from violence like this?

[Destino]

The lawmakers have to do SOMETHING, and you'd probably understand that if you lived here.

It's easy to point the finger from afar, but what do you suggest the state of AZ do to protect the border from violence like this?

Absolutely understand that man. Drug Cartel violence is more like terrorism than typical US crime. Those guys don't mess around and they take action with the intent of sending a message to local government and people. So far it's stayed on the Mexican side of the fence and even that is too close for comfort.

The sad thing is that it seems that Mexico is losing their war.

[Predicto]

And people wonder why the politicians here are trying to pass laws to make this stop.

:doh:

What laws are those?

[illone]

I must have missed the laws they are trying to pass concerning the drug war. Illegal immigration and the drug war are different issues. The solution for one does nothing to stop the other.


I don't condone the immigration laws, I just understand why they are coming about.

I think most people miss the fact that it's the people commiting crimes and violence that are causing the lawmakers to ATTEMPT to protect the border by preventing ALL illegals from passing across.

Like I said, I don't condone it, or even agree with some of the ways the laws are written.

I do, however, understand why the lawmakers are running around like chickens with their heads cutoff making changes to things.

[twa]

What laws are those?

Attempting to enforce immigration/border security and allow better tracking of who is here is very related to the drug trade and public safety...and by extension the violence

I don't think you realize just how bad it is getting

[Predicto]

Attempting to enforce immigration/border security and allow better tracking of who is here is very related to the drug trade and public safety...and by extension the violence

I don't think you realize just how bad it is getting

I realize how bad it is getting. I just don't agree with you on the solutions.

We've been down this road many times, so there is little reason to rehash it again.

[Destino]

Attempting to enforce immigration/border security and allow better tracking of who is here is very related to the drug trade and public safety...and by extension the violence

I don't think you realize just how bad it is getting

No it isn't. Halting ethnic history courses, allowing cops to demand papers from anyone, and favoring pink undergarments does nothing about the drug war. The drug war is easy to understand, the people behind it are ruthless and the money is amazing. If they can't use walking drug mules they'll bribe and smuggle like they do to get drugs everywhere else. They don't just place tons of product in places within walking distance you know.

[nonniey]

Absolutely understand that man. Drug Cartel violence is more like terrorism than typical US crime. Those guys don't mess around and they take action with the intent of sending a message to local government and people. So far it's stayed on the Mexican side of the fence and even that is too close for comfort.

The sad thing is that it seems that Mexico is losing their war.

Er, no it hasn't stayed on the Mexican side of the border. Much of the impetus for the Arizona immigration law was because the violence had crossed the boarder. It just isn't as severe, yet.

[Mickalino]

allowing cops to demand papers from anyone

they are not allowed to demand papers from "anyone"

[nonniey]

they are not allowed to demand papers from "anyone"

Give it up. That is a propaganda line you're attacking, so you'll have no effect in correcting the poster.

[twa]

they are not allowed to demand papers from "anyone"

Save your breath...or fingers:silly:

[illone]

What laws are those?


Not sure if you are trying to bait a response here, but I think you clearly know which laws I'm referring to.

:D

[KAOSkins]

Most people here in AZ could care less about illegals.

I know I don't. Most of the people and families I meet or run into are hard working people like myself just trying to make a better life for themselves. I don't have any issue with that, nor do the politicians here.

It's the violence that comes with it that has most families worried. If your family came here and wasn't violent towards citizens here, then you shouldn't be so touchy about it because your family isn't part of the problem.

The lawmakers have to do SOMETHING, and you'd probably understand that if you lived here.

It's easy to point the finger from afar, but what do you suggest the state of AZ do to protect the border from violence like this?

I live forty miles north of the border and I don't feel one iota more concerned about my safety than I did 20 years ago when I didn't feel concerned about my safety in Juarez either. There is very little drug war violence in my town or county, frankly I hear of less incidents than I used to. Course I run with a different crowd these days.

Maybe I should have been concerned about my safety down there back then it's always dangerous on the border in Mexico, but I was young. Point being though, hard as a lot of people try to claim their drug war is over here the evidence continually proves that's not the case. Those cartel boys aren't dumb, they rile up our feds and they lose a lot of money.

And the Arizona governor's irresponsible claim that all illegals are smugglers is going to come back and haunt her (and the AZ GOP) in the voting booth. That sort of reckless (borderline criminal IMO) hyperbole get's you a sound byte but it's not free.

[Predicto]

Not sure if you are trying to bait a response here, but I think you clearly know which laws I'm referring to.

:D

Well, I was HOPING that you were talking about our ridiculous failed drug prohibition laws. The ones that directly create the opportunity for massive profits in criminal drug trafficing, and thus directly created this violence at the border, just the same way that alcohol prohibition in the 1930s created Al Capone.

I was hoping that you were talking about the laws that are actually relevant to the horrible violence discussed in the original post. The laws that are inexorably creating a failed narco-state on our southern border through the remorseless power of free market economics.

That's why I didn't criticize you, and just asked for clarification. :)

[Predicto]

And the Arizona governor's irresponsible claim that all illegals are smugglers is going to come back and haunt her (and the AZ GOP) in the voting booth. That sort of reckless (borderline criminal IMO) hyperbole get's you a sound byte but it's not free.

Such comments might cost you in New Mexico, but not in Arizona. A couple million scared, elderly white transplants from Ohio are going to eat that stuff up. She will be as golden in the voting booth as Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

[KAOSkins]

Er, no it hasn't stayed on the Mexican side of the border. Much of the impetus for the Arizona immigration law was because the violence had crossed the boarder. It just isn't as severe, yet.

There was always an element of the Mexican side of the drug trade here though it's between themselves in my experience and bystanders have rarely been involved. When we're so close there has to be.

There's been no escalation in cross border violence, it's just that it makes national news now.

[KAOSkins]

Such comments might cost you in New Mexico, but not in Arizona. A couple million scared, elderly white transplants from Ohio are going to eat that stuff up. She will be as golden in the voting booth as Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

A lot, I mean A LOT, of apolitical young people of all persuasions in Arizona will be voting I hear. There's something brewing there, no pun intended. ;)

[Predicto]

A lot, I mean A LOT, of apolitical young people of all persuasions in Arizona will be voting I hear. There's something brewing there, no pun intended. ;)

I never trust young people to get off their butts and vote.

On the other hand, retirees always vote, in my experience.

[KAOSkins]

I never trust young people to get off their butts and vote.

On the other hand, retirees always vote, in my experience.

There's no denying that retirees have ruled the roost in AZ for a long time and they are force to be reckoned with to be sure and they will vote.

But there are an awful lot of immigrants and middle class folks who haven't been active. My sister is middle class and further left than me and she telling me theirs some grass roots organizations working these days that expect to have an impact. They now have a specific, personal, issue to draw them in. I think you'll be surprised. The proof will be in the pudding though I hope your valid cynicism is misplaced this time.

[nonniey]

There was always an element of the Mexican side of the drug trade here though it's between themselves in my experience and bystanders have rarely been involved. When we're so close there has to be.

There's been no escalation in cross border violence, it's just that it makes national news now.

In Arizona there most certainly has been an escalation of cross boarder violence and crime over the past few years. This is likely the result of more effective border control in California and El Paso which pushed much of the transiting population into Arizona.

Kidnappings
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

Murders
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2010/03/28/cochise-county-rancher-murdered

Direct threats to the Police (last week)
http://www.svherald.com/content/news/2010/06/22/nogales-police-officers-receive-threat-mexican-cartel

[Predicto]

There's no denying that retirees have ruled the roost in AZ for a long time and they are force to be reckoned with to be sure and they will vote.

But there are an awful lot of immigrants and middle class folks who haven't been active. My sister is middle class and further left than me and she telling me theirs some grass roots organizations working these days that expect to have an impact. They now have a specific, personal, issue to draw them in. I think you'll be surprised. The proof will be in the pudding though I hope your valid cynicism is misplaced this time.

I wish that this were true, but I don't believe it.

I might have believed it, had I not seen Sheriff Joe get reelected by whopping majorities in Arizona, over and over, despite being the most corrupt and downright evil elected official in the United States.

"Arpaio may be a thug and a murderer, but he's our thug and murderer and he's the only one who protects us from the Mexican thugs and murderers that we are really scared of..."

That is how Arpaio wins, and that is how the Governor is going to win as well.

[jpyaks3]

In Arizona there most certainly has been an escalation of cross boarder violence and crime over the past few years. This is likely the result of more effective border control in California and El Paso which pushed much of the transiting population into Arizona.

Kidnappings
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

Murders
http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2010/03/28/cochise-county-rancher-murdered

Direct threats to the Police (last week)
http://www.svherald.com/content/news/2010/06/22/nogales-police-officers-receive-threat-mexican-cartel

Instead of pointing to one murder or one set of threats lets look at the big picture instead of random anecdotal evidence.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/azcrime.htm

The murder rate has consistently gone down from 2003-2008 going from 7.9 to 6.3 (in the mid 1990's it was 10.5) per 100,000 residents.

Most of the other crime has gone down as well. So lets deal with facts not with a few tragic incidents.

[jpyaks3]

Some more stats

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/29/arizona.immigration.crime/index.html

Yet, a look at statistics from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection agency and the FBI indicate that both the number of illegal crossers and violent crime in general have actually decreased in the past several years.

According to FBI statistics, violent crimes reported in Arizona dropped by nearly 1,500 reported incidents between 2005 and 2008. Reported property crimes also fell, from about 287,000 reported incidents to 279,000 in the same period. These decreases are accentuated by the fact that Arizona's population grew by 600,000 between 2005 and 2008.

[twa]

Perhaps looking at too big a picture or focusing on the wrong spot gives a false impression?

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2010/06/on-the-border.html
Let's see - here is the 2008 FBI Table 5; the 2000 counterpart is an Excel file available here.

What we see that Arizona is broken into three categories - Metropolitan Statistical Areas, Cities Outside of MSA, and rural counties. Most people reside and most crime occurs in the MSAs. On the other hand, a glance at a map tells me that the Arizona border itself is not near what to the eyes of this former Manhattanite looks like any major city.

And the stats reprinted below tell a different story - measured by violent crimes per 100,000, the non-MSA portion of Arizona has seen a dramatic increase in crime.

AZ_Crime_2000_2008C
http://www.nctimes.com/app/blogs/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/azcrimestatsmaguire.jpg


We also note that the non-MSA population has been declining while the state has been growing. Maybe what were once exurbs are now suburbs incorporated into growing cities, which certainly muddies any comparisons across eight years.

But whatever the explanation, these numbers do not support the case that the rural and border areas of Arizona are getting safer. Quite the contrary, actually.

[illone]

Well, I was HOPING that you were talking about our ridiculous failed drug prohibition laws. The ones that directly create the opportunity for massive profits in criminal drug trafficing, and thus directly created this violence at the border, just the same way that alcohol prohibition in the 1930s created Al Capone.

I was hoping that you were talking about the laws that are actually relevant to the horrible violence discussed in the original post. The laws that are inexorably creating a failed narco-state on our southern border through the remorseless power of free market economics.

That's why I didn't criticize you, and just asked for clarification. :)


I'll have my sarcasm meter checked out, false positive:ols:

In all honesty I wasn't referring to THOSE laws, but yea, can't disagree much with what you posted.

[rocazares]

The worst is this "drug war" only have one side, the cartels side.
The president support Chapo Guzman, I'm not going crazy, it's true.

All the people wants to leave this f***** country of "nothing happens", I want to leave, the crime all around the country is a living hell, between drug war, crimes, kidnapping, corruption Mejico loss at least 80 lives daily.
Since 2006 the number grows dramatically day to day.

Man, I feel so depressed to live in this hole named mejico.
We have a lot of working people, not the work for the employers from the third world (because we are third world or worst fourth if exists) but people who wants to take the next step and bring to their families everything.
The corruption already kill this part of the world.

Last week I was thinking in request an interview to exile to Canada or USA, I want to work, pay my bills, repay the opportunity for the chance to reach a better life. But I don't have university papers.

[jnhay]

23,000 lives claimed in Mexico drug violence since late 2006. That's more people than we've lost in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over the same period times 5.

That's freaking nuts.

How many Americans are killed in drug related violence though, because I would expect that would be a higher number too (though not as bad as Mexico).

[KAOSkins]

We also note that the non-MSA population has been declining while the state has been growing. Maybe what were once exurbs are now suburbs incorporated into growing cities, which certainly muddies any comparisons across eight years.

But whatever the explanation, these numbers do not support the case that the rural and border areas of Arizona are getting safer. Quite the contrary, actually.


Arizona south of I-10/I-5 is for the most part Indian Reservation and Federal Wilderness/Forest - not only are there no skylines there are no people. None.

Non-MSA AZ is going to be the northern part of the state with a little finger of civilization along the east and west boundaries. Crime for Douglas/Nogales would be it if you wanted to look at changes over time along the border. I suspect those stats would available. There are maybe 500 within a mile of the border outside of that till you get to Yuma, which is an MSA.

[KAOSkins]

How many Americans are killed in drug related violence though, because I would expect that would be a higher number too (though not as bad as Mexico).

Not very many. I'm aware of 2. In 30 years of living here and knowing people who would know. I'm not counting their people over on this side like the Barrio Azteca gang. But even with that El Paso has one of the lowest murder rates in the country a literal stones throw from Juarez where they're dropping like flies. I tell you, the cartel bosses aren't dumb, they're fighting over cash and they're not about to cut off their nose to spite their face by forcing our law enforcement to act. They know that wouldn't help the bottom line.

[nonniey]

[QUOTE=KAOSkins;7616277]Arizona south of I-10/I-5 is for the most part Indian Reservation and Federal Wilderness/Forest - not only are there no skylines there are no people. None. .... QUOTE]

Wow, only on Extremeskins can you find out you don't exist.

[mboyd784]

The War on Drugs is such a travesty.

[MEANDWARF]

Mexico is going nuts. Wish their Prez will do something about this rather than come to our country and bash one of our states immigration laws.

[KAOSkins]

[QUOTE=KAOSkins;7616277]Arizona south of I-10/I-5 is for the most part Indian Reservation and Federal Wilderness/Forest - not only are there no skylines there are no people. None. .... QUOTE]

Wow, only on Extremeskins can you find out you don't exist.

You're that little finger down the eastern side of the state. I gotta pull out maps for you? Geography aside, how's the cartel war related crime rate there? My buddy who just moved to Germany equates the SV crime rate to Cruces which is to say there is no mexican drug war there either. The times I visited I felt very safe at Chile's and I believe the military presence would probably dissuade Chapo from making any Pancho Villa type forays.

Not a great map but the colored parts are res or federal and they make up the vast majority of the southern border of AZ.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3348/borderv.png

[KAOSkins]

Mexico is going nuts. Wish their Prez will do something about this rather than come to our country and bash one of our states immigration laws.

He can't do ****. The only ones who can are us by getting rid of demand. A lot easier to ***** and moan about poor people than it is to face up to the problems we have I guess. Pretty weak.

[luckydevil]

Mexican politicians can only do so much. The drug cartels are our fault. If conservatives want to get serious about combating crime, end the War on Drugs

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

This thread gives me a chance to post this video:

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[twa]

The only ones who can are us by getting rid of demand. A lot easier to ***** and moan about poor people than it is to face up to the problems we have I guess.

Yes it is...but legalization won't end demand will it

[GoSkins561]

The worst is this "drug war" only have one side, the cartels side.
The president support Chapo Guzman, I'm not going crazy, it's true.

All the people wants to leave this f***** country of "nothing happens", I want to leave, the crime all around the country is a living hell, between drug war, crimes, kidnapping, corruption Mejico loss at least 80 lives daily.
Since 2006 the number grows dramatically day to day.

Man, I feel so depressed to live in this hole named mejico.
We have a lot of working people, not the work for the employers from the third world (because we are third world or worst fourth if exists) but people who wants to take the next step and bring to their families everything.
The corruption already kill this part of the world.

Last week I was thinking in request an interview to exile to Canada or USA, I want to work, pay my bills, repay the opportunity for the chance to reach a better life. But I don't have university papers.

We are pretty full up here, as a matter of fact were over flowing because of illegals.

What about a country in South America? Argentina? Brazil?

What about Costa Rica? that place is blowing up.

[rocazares]

We are pretty full up here, as a matter of fact were over flowing because of illegals.

What about a country in South America? Argentina? Brazil?

What about Costa Rica? that place is blowing up.


Yes what you said is so true.

In some cases South America has the same problems like Mexico.

In fact the people down here is looking to start over new in Europe, similar places like Spain or Portugal (you know food, religion, languague).
I like USA or Canada because I grow up with an influence of your culture.
Since I was 9 years old I start to learn english by myself, reading comics in english, videogames magazines, all day reading the dictionary, listening music in english and trying to translate to spanish, I guess I do a pretty well job, because in all my life I never has stepped into languague school.

I put USA because I think I can fit well, food, work ethic, society, languague, all the things that matters to stablish with all of you.
And maybe to land near Maryland to see the Skins :laugh:.

But ... don't worry, that will not happen I'm cursed with Quetzalcoatl's revenge :ols: the USA or Canadian embassy never ever will give me the green light.
Born here, grow up here, suffer here and die here, all because my ancestors betrayed Quetzatcoatl.

Costa Rica??? Is an awesome place but hot humid weather and my body don't have good relantionships

LOL.

[GoSkins561]

Since you speak English so well you should get a job on a resort or something.

[KAOSkins]

Yes it is...but legalization won't end demand will it

To be fair to me ;), I didn't say anything about legalization just ending demand.

[Special K]

The worst is this "drug war" only have one side, the cartels side.
The president support Chapo Guzman, I'm not going crazy, it's true.

All the people wants to leave this ****** country of "nothing happens", I want to leave, the crime all around the country is a living hell, between drug war, crimes, kidnapping, corruption Mejico loss at least 80 lives daily.
Since 2006 the number grows dramatically day to day.

Man, I feel so depressed to live in this hole named mejico.
We have a lot of working people, not the work for the employers from the third world (because we are third world or worst fourth if exists) but people who wants to take the next step and bring to their families everything.
The corruption already kill this part of the world.

Last week I was thinking in request an interview to exile to Canada or USA, I want to work, pay my bills, repay the opportunity for the chance to reach a better life. But I don't have university papers.
I am so sorry to hear about the situation down there. Your post depresses me because I know there are so many people like yourself who are caught in the middle of this drug war and feel completely helpless. :(

[DCsportsfan53]

23,000 lives claimed in Mexico drug violence since late 2006. That's more people than we've lost in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over the same period times 5.

That's freaking nuts.


I assume then, since the violence is clearly appalling, you must be in favor of taking away the source of power and wealth they're fighting over, right? Are you done with Prohibition II and it's associated organized crime and violence? How long do we have to keep pretending while people keep dying?

[DCsportsfan53]

Yes it is...but legalization won't end demand will it

Nothing will. It's a part of human nature to seek intoxication. The question is, since we've pretty much seen that no matter what we can't stop supply or demand, how do we handle it in the most intelligent and effective manner possible because what we're doing now is just about the most destructive way possible. How many dead and locked up people will it take for us to collectively admit failure and try a new approach? Is life that invaluable to us that the moral crusade against being high outweighs all the obvious negatives going on around us?

[twa]

Nothing will. It's a part of human nature to seek intoxication. The question is, since we've pretty much seen that no matter what we can't stop supply or demand, how do we handle it in the most intelligent and effective manner possible because what we're doing now is just about the most destructive way possible. How many dead and locked up people will it take for us to collectively admit failure and try a new approach? Is life that invaluable to us that the moral crusade against being high outweighs all the obvious negatives going on around us?

I certainly agree, but overlooking the problems of legalization and the accompanying issues that will not go away is not a good idea.

Tain't that simple

KAO, yes that was a bit unfair,but ...:)

[KAOSkins]

KAO, yes that was a bit unfair,but ...:)

It's medical. That's different. :paranoid: :ols:

I don't see any other solution, though I'm not pleased with the prospect of legalization of all drugs. There just isn't any other solution short of some 1984 type government control. I know you wouldn't like that any more than I would. The cost of the drug trade we bear, particularly the black market aspects, might not be the deaths and violence that Mexico sees but it's a very high one in terms of cash and lives. Legalization would at least remove some of the bad though no one could claim it would fix everything.

[twa]

I don't see any other solution,

Neither do I, but we will need to change societies support structure if legalization is to pass.

Let's play make a deal ;)

added

Even with legalization and reform on our end ,the problem of corruption in Mexico ain't going away....perhaps it will lessen but I doubt it.

[Hubbs]

I like USA or Canada because I grow up with an influence of your culture. Since I was 9 years old I start to learn english by myself, reading comics in english, videogames magazines, all day reading the dictionary, listening music in english and trying to translate to spanish, I guess I do a pretty well job, because in all my life I never has stepped into languague school.

I put USA because I think I can fit well, food, work ethic, society, languague, all the things that matters to stablish with all of you. And maybe to land near Maryland to see the Skins :laugh:.

But ... don't worry, that will not happen I'm cursed with Quetzalcoatl's revenge :ols: the USA or Canadian embassy never ever will give me the green light.

Born here, grow up here, suffer here and die here, all because my ancestors betrayed Quetzatcoatl.

You understand English very well for someone who's never taken classes. I wish I was that good at Spanish. I took classes for years and I'm still awful. :ols:

What exactly is Quetzalcoatl's revenge?

[deejaydana]

This complicates my travel plans to Baja next month. Well, actually it doesn't though now I'm only traveling during day light hours and camping out in the beach house at night. Still think I might be calling the State Dept before I leave....

[rocazares]

You understand English very well for someone who's never taken classes. I wish I was that good at Spanish. I took classes for years and I'm still awful. :ols:

What exactly is Quetzalcoatl's revenge?

The legend saids Quetzalcoatl was a tall white wise man, who teach the aztecs the script system and bring to them the corn. As a god he have a brother, an evil and tricky brother named Tezcatlipoca. One day Tezcatlipoca disguise himself as an elder man and trick Quetzalcoatl with "pulque", our dear friend Quetzalcoatl get the booze of his life :ols:, then Tezcatlipoca put Quetzalcoatl in front of a mirror, he get trick because his brother say to him he was horrible, Quetzalcoatl believe this and run away in a ship made of serpents.
He said someday he will be back to "fix" that treachery, also to complete and bring El sexto sol, december 2012.
The curse is Tenochtitlan will suffer until his second coming.

In fact the aztecs believes at that time Hernan Cortes was Quetzalcoatl returning from the sky for being a white tall man.
The indigenas believes Quetzal is Venus watching us patiently above volcano Popocatepetl.

Hubbs learn spanish is easier than learn english :) trust me.

[DCsportsfan53]

Neither do I, but we will need to change societies support structure if legalization is to pass.

Let's play make a deal ;)

added

Even with legalization and reform on our end ,the problem of corruption in Mexico ain't going away....perhaps it will lessen but I doubt it.


At least they won't have free reign over one of the most lucrative trades in the world with no regulation. I'd say that encourages the corruption and violence just a little bit. Just look what alcohol prohibition did for Al Capone.

[twa]

At least they won't have free reign over one of the most lucrative trades in the world with no regulation. I'd say that encourages the corruption and violence just a little bit. Just look what alcohol prohibition did for Al Capone.

Capone caused violence in Canada?

[MEANDWARF]

He can't do ****. The only ones who can are us by getting rid of demand. A lot easier to ***** and moan about poor people than it is to face up to the problems we have I guess. Pretty weak.
True. But I feel that he can do more than what he's doing right now. Where are the Mexican Armies? I know it sounds crappy, but declare "Marshall Law" if things are that bad. Just saying.

Mexican politicians can only do so much. The drug cartels are our fault. If conservatives want to get serious about combating crime, end the War on Drugs
Just curious, how would ending the war on drugs help the problem. I would think this would increase demand.

[jpyaks3]

Just curious, how would ending the war on drugs help the problem. I would think this would increase demand.

Surprisingly it doesn't people use drugs in a more safe manner where it is legalized and there also tends to be lower addiction rates as well. Portugal is a really good example of what happens when you legalize all drugs and provide proper treatment and rehabilitation services.

[luckydevil]

Just curious, how would ending the war on drugs help the problem. I would think this would increase demand.

Well it would end the need for drug cartels and remove the criminal element associated with the drug trade ( it is a black market after all). There is no doubt that demand would increase in the short term, but in the long term, I am not so sure. None the less drug addiction would be easier to combat in a open environment.

Jpyaks good post.

Drug legalization would not only lead to safer drug use, but safer drugs as well.

[MEANDWARF]

Well it would end the need for drug cartels and remove the criminal element associated with the drug trade ( it is a black market after all). There is no doubt that demand would increase in the short term, but in the long term, I am not so sure. None the less drug addiction would be easier to combat in a open environment.

Jpyaks good post.

Drug legalization would not only lead to safer drug use, but safer drugs as well.

I don't see how drug cartels would be eliminated after the legalization of drugs like pot or cocaine. Actually competition would increase once these drugs become legalized and more killings would occur.
And you cannot guarantee that we will have "safer drugs" after legalization either. Side effects could be lethal in some cases leading enormous lawsuits for the drug companies processing them. That would be good for the lawyers, but not for the poor schmo using them.

[jpyaks3]

I don't see how drug cartels would be eliminated after the legalization of drugs like pot or cocaine. Actually competition would increase once these drugs become legalized and more killings would occur.
And you cannot guarantee that we will have "safer drugs" after legalization either. Side effects could be lethal in some cases leading enormous lawsuits for the drug companies processing them. That would be good for the lawyers, but not for the poor schmo using them.

That is simply not what happens when it is practiced in real life.

Here is more on Portugal where everything is legalized and exactly zero of your concerns have manifested themselves. Instead Portugal went from having one of the worst set of drug numbers in Europe and the West to the best. If you really want to be informed on the issue look into cases like Portugal where the idea is in practice rather then rely on speculation or what seems like it should happen.



At the time, critics in the poor, socially conservative and largely Catholic nation said decriminalizing drug possession would open the country to "drug tourists" and exacerbate Portugal's drug problem; the country had some of the highest levels of hard-drug use in Europe. But the recently released results of a report commissioned by the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, suggest otherwise.

The paper, published by Cato in April, found that in the five years after personal possession was decriminalized, illegal drug use among teens in Portugal declined and rates of new HIV infections caused by sharing of dirty needles dropped, while the number of people seeking treatment for drug addiction more than doubled.

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does."


http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

[Hubbs]

I don't see how drug cartels would be eliminated after the legalization of drugs like pot or cocaine. Actually competition would increase once these drugs become legalized and more killings would occur.

You're assuming that the only thing legalization would change is whether or not people get arrested for possession. You have to look at the bigger picture.

Americans know the name Al Capone because in the 1920's, organized criminal organizations were suddenly presented with a massive influx of funds with which they could expand both their numbers and their firepower. This influx was the entire alcohol industry. When Prohibition was enacted, it was illegal to make, transport, or sell alcohol. But it was still in high demand. A huge chunk of the American population wanted to keep drinking. And by outlawing alcohol, all of a sudden the only people who would produce, transport, and sell alcohol were criminals. The revenue was enormous. Gangs fought to become more organized and more powerful so they could control more of the market. But because alcohol production had been made, by definition, an industry of criminals, different "companies" weren't very motivated to adhere to other laws in this fight. They didn't just compete with lower prices or better products. They competed with guns and drive-bys. They murdered for territory. They killed cops for the chance to gain just a few more customers. And when Prohibition was repealed, these organizations largely collapsed, because it's a whole lot easier, cheaper, and safer to produce and sell booze the legal way. Now we look back on Prohibition with the clarity of hindsight and know it was a dumb national mistake that failed to solve any problems it was intended to solve while creating new, more serious ones.

So now it's 2010. We know that gangs and cartels in the United States and Latin America have experienced a massive influx of funds over the past few decades. We know that this influx is the illegal substance industry. We know that American demand for those substances has remained high, and in many cases grown, since the War on Drugs became national policy. We know that because these drugs are illegal, the only people who will produce, transport, or sell them are criminals. We know the revenue is enormous. We know that gangs and cartels are constantly fighting to become more organized and more powerful so they can control more of the market. We know that the drug trade is an industry of criminals, and we know that the people involved aren't very motivated to adhere to other laws in this fight. We know they don't just compete with lower prices or better products. We know they compete with guns and drive-bys. We know they murder for territory. We know they kill cops for the chance to gain just a few more customers. We know from both farming industry information and the changes in marijuana prices in "medical" marijuana states that it's a whole lot easier, cheaper, and safer to produce and sell drugs the legal way. We know from the DEA's own national drug usage statistics that the War on Drugs has failed to solve any of the problems it was intended to solve, and we know from the DEA's own reports on gangs and cartels that the War on Drugs has created new, more serious problems.

What do you think we'd know decades from now with the clarity of hindsight if we ended the War on Drugs today?


And you cannot guarantee that we will have "safer drugs" after legalization either. Side effects could be lethal in some cases leading enormous lawsuits for the drug companies processing them. That would be good for the lawyers, but not for the poor schmo using them.

If illegal drugs were legalized, the FDA would inspect them, just like it inspects Xanax and Lexapro and Adderall. Right now, nobody inspects them. In fact, drug dealers often lace certain substances with other drugs with the specific goal of getting users hooked on the other, more expensive substance. How often do you hear about the maker of Lexapro intentionally lacing it with heroin?

I think it's safe to assume that inspections are safer than no inspections.

[twa]

INVASION?..interesting, just talking to a customer yesterday that owns a large ranch there that was bitching about it
might be interesting.


http://www.thecypresstimes.com/article/News/National_News/BREAKING_MULTIPLE_RANCHES_IN_LAREDO_TX_TAKEN_OVER_ BY_LOS_ZETAS/31835

BREAKING: MULTIPLE RANCHES IN LAREDO, TX TAKEN OVER BY LOS ZETAS

meanwhile

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7123449.html

18 arrested in raid at Houston flea market
Suspects nabbed by ICE-led task force accused of document fraud

added
speaking of fraud
http://www.lmtonline.com/articles/2010/07/24/front/news/doc4c4b6b53d2179200438464.txt
Officials know nothing of rumored Zeta standoff on Mines Road

By Nick Georgiou
Laredo Morning Times
Published: Saturday, July 24, 2010 5:38 PM CDT
Local law enforcement was bombarded with calls from across the country Saturday asking about a report that the Zetas had taken over two ranches off Mines Road.

But officials with the Laredo Police Department, Webb County Sheriff’s Department and Border Patrol said they knew nothing about such an incident, while Erik Vasys, an FBI spokesman in San Antonio, said the agency does not comment on rumors.

[Stadium-Armory]

23,000 since 2006 is a hard to fathom. That's no joke.