The OL is Hurting the Progression of this Offense More Than Anything

[#98QBKiller]

IMO, McNabb hasn't just suddenly fallen off. He obviously needs another weapon to throw to and needs consistency out of the running game. However, the OL hasn't improved much since the Zorn era and that is hurting the evolution of this offense more than anything.

We obviously weren't able to fix our entire OL in one season, but the injury to Chris Samuels set us back a lot further on rebuilding the line than we would like to admit. Halfway through the 2010 season, here's where we are with the OL right now:

A) LT was the only good part of the previous OL and we had to replace that position first with our offseason resources. Basically, the need to replace Chris Samuels with Trent Williams was imperative and since Samuels already had that position locked down, Trent Williams has filled in nicely for him, keeping that one spot in good shape.

B) Jamaal Brown was supposed to be the answer at RT, and he probably will be, but he still isn't fully recovered from hip surgery and we've got Stephon Heyer back at RT for the third year in a row. That position is still the same as it was last season and will remain that way until Brown is back to 100 percent.

According to this article:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81bb6ebb/article/redskins-ailing-at-tackle-ahead-of-lions-matchup

Shanahan seems to think he just needs a few more weeks to recover fully. I'm hoping the bye can give his recovery time a boost.

C) Rabach is still here and he still sucks, we have to replace him in the offseason. Nick Mangold is a UFA and one of the best Centers in the league. We need to pursue him heavily.

D) Lichtensteiger may be better at run blocking in the ZBS than Dockery but he's obviously not any better in pass protection. I don't see how he's been an upgrade over Dockery in any other way, he gets pushed back way too often in pass protection to be worth the switch IMO. This position is still full of uncertainty.

E) Artis Hicks may be an upgrade over the constantly-changing RG position from last season but it's almost a moot point with Heyer and Rabach still starting and inconsistent play at the LG position.

So at this point, all that has really changed on the OL is that we are still good at LT, but just with a different player and we now have a steady starter at RG. Once Jammal Brown is fully healthy, I think our offensive line will look better, but it's not going to be a good offensive line until we replace Rabach and find a consistent starter at LG, which won't happen until the offseason. I think it we do the right thing and fix these problems, McNabb has a very good chance at being successful here in this scheme.

[SkinsHokieFan]

C) Mangold re-signed with the Jets for the highest salary of a center in the NFL

D) Needs to be moved back to center

E) Artis is Artis. Solid not spectacular.


My offseason plan: Sign Logan Mankins. Move Lichtenshleger to center and draft Rodney Hudson out of FSU

[GaryGreenMonk]

everyone knew this..

apparently the Shanahans somehow didn't realize how bad it was... but they know now.

If Rabach and Heyer are still on this team next year, I'm going to have a hissy fit.

[SKINSFAN87]

What's costing this team is poor play from the oline (except trent williams) and not having a true #1 wide receiver (like a calvin johnson) that other teams have to respect. I will always stick behind this team no matter what, but it's hard to watch this team when we keep having the same problems year after year.

[BKSkinsFan]

Our o-line has been extremely inconsistent, so I definitely have to agree with the OP. Steady o-line play is the cornerstone of every successful offense.

They did address the o-line heavily this offseason (only 1 returning starter), and honestly I do see improvement over what it was last year. However it's more than apparent that much more needs to be done. Rabach NEEDS to go, and we need an upgrade over Lichtensteiger. I'm hoping Big Mike can nail down RG next season, and Jamaal gets healthy to solidify RT.

[bobzmuda]

Nah, all the Redskins need is a franchise QB. He could make this OL look much better.

Or at least, that's what I heard all last season.

[#98QBKiller]

C) Mangold re-signed with the Jets for the highest salary of a center in the NFL

D) Needs to be moved back to center

E) Artis is Artis. Solid not spectacular.


My offseason plan: Sign Logan Mankins. Move Lichtenshleger to center and draft Rodney Hudson out of FSU

I didn't realize Mangold had been signed by the Jets. Logan Mankins would be a nice pickup but Lichtenshieger has no business starting at Center or Guard.

We need to look at the draft for a starting Center for 2011.

[Dick Edds]

Rabach is garbage ... the guy gets tossed around like a rag doll. Liechtensteiger is average at best. Say what you want about Dockery, but the guy moved the line of scrimmage when he was in there. he also covered up for Rabach's complete lack of strength.

It doesn't matter who the more athletic/quicker OL'man is or whether they can get to the 2nd level, when you can't control the line of scrimmage, it means nothing. How's about we get our biggest strongest lineman in there and start trying to pound the ball. I saw Liechtensteiger pushing himself away from Suh to get to the next level/guy. maybe in terms of X's and o's that's what he is supposed to do. But what good does it do to run to your spot, if the line of scrimmage is getting blown up?

I'm also kind of confused as to why we keep having Dmac drop back and pass in short yardage situations whe our OL can't even give him more than one second to plant and throw. Why are we not using shotgun formations? If you want to get cute, put Banks in the backfield and let him run the sweep or pitch runs to the outside. Frustrated is a nice way to say how we are all feeling right now. Hail to the BYE week.

[Redskinjoe]

I agree. Our OL is essentially the same as it was last year with one exception. We now have problems pass protecting at LG with the absence of Dockery that we didn't have last year. The Lions DC & Schwarz both realized that Shanny was keeping McNabb on his feet using bootleg plays and playaction through the first seven games of the season. They simply used their ends to shut down the bootlegs and used their DT's to attack Gramma Rabach and company.

Me? I think Shanny pulled McNabb to save his life as evidenced by the collapse of the pocket on the "more experienced" Grossman. The entire world knew beyond a shadow of a doubt we were going to throw the ball.

Shanny: "I pulled McNabb and put it Grossman because he's more experienced in the 2-minute drill."

Translation: "Casey Rabach, Artis Hicks, etc. couldn't block your grandma. I did it to save McNabb's career."

[Homercles82]

everyone knew this..

apparently the Shanahans somehow didn't realize how bad it was... but they know now.

You seriously don't believe this do you?

It has been stated many times before. We did not have enough draft picks nor were there offseason FA's available to fill the holes. I don't know else you expected.

[Saqs]

No one is hurting this team more than Casey Rabach. He seems to get blown up 99% of the time. The guards are playing half decent but they have to over compensate for Rabachs awful ass. Hes been the definition of terribad all season.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Nah, all the Redskins need is a franchise QB. He could make this OL look much better.

Or at least, that's what I heard all last season.


the oline really started looking bad the last 2 weeks. it had been decent until then, and mcnabb being able to scramble and sense the rush made it better.

either hes actually injured, or our oline is seriously banged up (T williams) or the constant shuffling is just screwing us. either way, for the first 6 games, our oline was mediocre, it didnt resemble yesterdays debacle.

[Homercles82]

No one is hurting this team more than Casey Rabach. He seems to get blown up 99% of the time. The guards are playing half decent but they have to over compensate for Rabachs awful ass. Hes been the definition of terribad all season.

Lichtensteiger gets blown up on a consistent basis as well.

[JoeJGibbs]

I was confused by the playcalling yesterday because this Kubiak/Shanahan offense is a downfield passing attack that has some long developing routes, and double moves.
It almost requires that the O line be able ot sustain blocks for longer periods of time. With that said, the Lions were attacking so far upfield yesterday that I was surprised we didnt see any quick strikes or draw plays to keep them off balance.

It's simple. The defense is getting to the QB before the WRs are getting to where they need to be. The QB has to elude the rush instead keeping his eyes downfield. Then IF he can get a pass off, his feet aren't set, or he's throwing on the run...

[The Tris]

the oline really started looking bad the last 2 weeks. it had been decent until then, and mcnabb being able to scramble and sense the rush made it better.

The OL suddenly looking bad has coincided with playing the two best defensive lines so far this season. We can handle qiuck DE and OLBs, but the interior simply is not good enough to handle powerful DTs and strong over all DLs.

And coming up in the 2nd half, MIN, TEN, NYG in a three week stretch, and a second NYG game. Those will be bad games.

On the flip side, I expect the OL to suddenly look better coming off the bye against PHI, and play well against TB, JAX, and DAL.

[Boss_Hogg]

The OL suddenly looking bad has coincided with playing the two best defensive lines so far this season. We can handle qiuck DE and OLBs, but the interior simply is not good enough to handle powerful DTs and strong over all DLs.

And coming up in the 2nd half, MIN, TEN, NYG in a three week stretch, and a second NYG game. Those will be bad games.

On the flip side, I expect the OL to suddenly look better coming off the bye against PHI, and play well against TB, JAX, and DAL.

The Giants front 4 (or seven) depending how you look at it, are SCARY.

Rabach will get owned real bad in those two games

[SKINchiefer]

What else is new?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

it is a little funny that shanahan has no problem benching mcnabb, yet somehow rabach and kory are safe. both of those guys have been mauled recently.

[JoeJGibbs]

it is a little funny that shanahan has no problem benching mcnabb, yet somehow rabach and kory are safe. both of those guys have been mauled recently.

And THAT is what I didn't understand. When Shanahan "brought Sexxy back" with 1:45 left, it almost says that he doesn't think the problem is the O line. That he thinks, his plays are good but the QB is the issue.
But as you can see...on the very 1st play from scrimmage..we lost the game.

[#98QBKiller]

The OL suddenly looking bad has coincided with playing the two best defensive lines so far this season. We can handle qiuck DE and OLBs, but the interior simply is not good enough to handle powerful DTs and strong over all DLs.

And coming up in the 2nd half, MIN, TEN, NYG in a three week stretch, and a second NYG game. Those will be bad games.

On the flip side, I expect the OL to suddenly look better coming off the bye against PHI, and play well against TB, JAX, and DAL.

These are very good points. I think we're going to get taken to the woodshed by the Giants' front seven. Not looking forward to those games at all. I still think that Jammal Brown will be a very good RT but who knows how long his recovery will take?

I'm seriously not opposed to grabbing the best WR we can in free agency and spending our first two picks on the best C & G that we can find in the draft.

[The Tris]

I'm seriously not opposed to grabbing the best WR we can in free agency and spending our first two picks on the best C & G that we can find in the draft.

Unfortunately, this is a very weak OL class, particularly at C and G. FA might be our best option for OL help.

[GaryGreenMonk]

The Giants front 4 (or seven) depending how you look at it, are SCARY.

Rabach will get owned real bad in those two games

if there was a vegas line on that.. i'd bet my house.

[martytheman]

I was confused by the playcalling yesterday because this Kubiak/Shanahan offense is a downfield passing attack that has some long developing routes, and double moves.
It almost requires that the O line be able ot sustain blocks for longer periods of time. With that said, the Lions were attacking so far upfield yesterday that I was surprised we didnt see any quick strikes or draw plays to keep them off balance.



They ran plenty of draws, every one of them was stuffed behind the line of scrimmage.

[Homercles82]

it is a little funny that shanahan has no problem benching mcnabb, yet somehow rabach and kory are safe. both of those guys have been mauled recently.

So who should we replace them with?

[GaryGreenMonk]

So who should we replace them with?

maybe a couch?

i think it would take the D line a little longer to climb over the couch than pwn Kory, Rabach and Heyer.

[bird_1972]

We need to draft the following next year:

1) Center
2) Guard
3) NT

Everything else at this point isn't as urgent. We still need to be stout on both lines. Don't forget that on D, we cant get any decent push up the middle and still have trouble stopping the run.

[The Tris]

I wonder if the suggestion of moving Lich to C and Dock back to LG could be worse. The bye would certainly be the time to make a big change like that.



Interesting Football Outsiders OL stats here, these have not been updated to reflect this week's game: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

I found it most interesting that we ranking 32nd in the league in adjusted line yards per attempt (2.99) when running to the Middle/LG/RG. Not surprising.

We are most successful (13th in the NFL with 5.24 ALY) running to the right end, behind the oft maligned Brown/Heyer combo. Surprising.

EDIT: A few more tidbits I found interesting.

1 - We rank 27th in running plays that are stuffed (runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage), occuring on 25% of our running plays. Additionally, we rank 29th for power success (runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This includes quarterbacks.) with a 50% success rate.

Not shocking, as our OL is better at pass blocking (ranked 13th) as opposed to run blocking (27th). This leads me to believe that we might benefit from Dockery's superior run blocking at LG even if Lich might be a better ZBS fit.

2 - According to the FB Outsiders guys, a team with a low ranking in Adjusted Line Yards but a high ranking in Open Field Yards is heavily dependent on its running back breaking long runs to make the running game work. We rank 27th in ALY, and 8th in OFY.

This leads me to believe that our running backs should be viewed as a strength, and that RB should not be a need moving forward.

[alwaysaskin]

Well, this has been an issue for three years now. Williams was a no-brainer at #4, but we made a lot of stupid moves under Vinny. Rabach has been done since 2007, he gets blown up by the elite NT's in a 3-4 and when he does get blown up, he will commit a drive killing holding penalty, Kory is no better than Dockery was, as for the right side of the line, I am severely disappointed in Hicks, and Heyer well my feelings are known. We will not be a contender until we fix this O-Line, unfortunately we have missed out on major upgrades, our best hope is Gabe Carmini out of Wiscosin, he can play tackle or Guard, but we still need a center. Just realize that we passed on Shipley in 09 so the Vintard could pick up another Cornerback.

Unfortunately McNabb's impending departure, combined with a weak OL class will mean that we will draft a QB and ruin that guys Career

[vnmenon1]

Another reason why the benching of Mc5 is idiotic... put Manning behind that line and he will get killed... what a dumb decision

[Bang]

You seriously don't believe this do you?

It has been stated many times before. We did not have enough draft picks nor were there offseason FA's available to fill the holes. I don't know else you expected.

Precisely.
I thought anyone with any knowledge could see that.

Apparently i was mistaken. This year is about stopping the bleeding, those who believed otherwise set themselves up for the disappointment they feel.

~Bang

[BKSkinsFan]

I really like the idea of Lichtensteiger at C and Dockery at LG. Get Shanny on the horn and let him get this done STAT.

Seriously, something needs to be done in an attempt to get some better production out of these guys.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

maybe a couch?

i think it would take the D line a little longer to climb over the couch than pwn Kory, Rabach and Heyer.


attempt something. put kory at center, bring cook or capers up to play guard, activate dockery, etc. there are options we have, we just have to try something else. this lineup on the oline outside of trent williams is not working. if were gonna get blown up, at least lets get blown up with some different dudes lol. if we're playing for the future, see what some of these kids have to offer.

[Redskins4ever]

What the offensive line didn't do against Chicago last week, they did against Detroit this week. You can't take the Vinny Cerratto approach to building the team through free agency. Shanahan needs to draft a RT next offseason in the same way he drafted Trent Williams at LT this past offseason. Artis Hicks along with Stephen Heyer are just not producing. They need to be replaced as well. Casey Rabach has been solid for years, but yesterday is the worst game I ever seen him play. The Redskins and Shanahan are okay at 4-4. But I expect them to right this debacle down the stretch.

[Rocky21]

For how many years has every football knowledgable fan of this team stood up and screamed for the deficiencies on this offensive line to be addressed?

Williams looks like the real deal but piecing and patching this thing with guys coming off career threatening injuries, guys with funny last names that can't pass protect, guys playing out of position and undrafted local guys really hurt us yesterday. It's obviously the team's biggest weakness and has been for a long time.

[Darkstarr]

Finding a way to get Mankin would help a ton. You stick an all pro next to T. Williams, and all of a sudden the left side of our line would look great. That move alone would make this o-line so much better. Just have to be patient.

[JustAfan47]

I can't believe we are still having trouble cluing together an offensive line. I'm staring to pull my hair out over this problem!!. :(

[blue collar]

Yeah, but this offense still struggles when the O-Line plays well. I say blow it up.

[The Tris]

Just realize that we passed on Shipley in 09 so the Vintard could pick up another Cornerback.

AQ Shipley? The twice cut, never seen the field in two years, currently on the PS AQ Shipley?

[pjfootballer]

C) Mangold re-signed with the Jets for the highest salary of a center in the NFL

D) Needs to be moved back to center

E) Artis is Artis. Solid not spectacular.


My offseason plan: Sign Logan Mankins. Move Lichtenshleger to center and draft Rodney Hudson out of FSU

I was saying in another thread that Lich needs to go to center. He played well in the preseason there. I like the Mankins move only if he is good in the ZBS.

[Riggodrill44]

Nah, all the Redskins need is a franchise QB. He could make this OL look much better.

Or at least, that's what I heard all last season.

Sure Did!! Where are they now?Not a peep.

Hey do you think Jason C chuckled a little when McNabb got benched?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Sure Did!! Where are they now?Not a peep.

Hey do you think Jason C chuckled a little when McNabb got benched?


i havent heard anyone begging for campbell back. and the majority werent that down on mcnabb until yesterday. its no secret hes playing poorly, but his resume is enough to give him more time. half a season with brand new everything is not enough to warrant chucking a guy of his caliber.

campbell got 52 starts with this group and people still thought he needed more time, but mcnabb is done after 8?

[Sekhmet728]

Doing a JC - McNabb comparison should make it very clear that the O-line is the problem. No other element on this team has contributed more to our failures on offense.

[Dana87]

In the 80's and early 90's we had the Hogs. Now we have these guys...