Suffering from Front Office Bi Polar Disorder

[KDawg]

First, I think anyone who wants to see Shanahan canned at this point is seriously not remembering what we had in place prior to this front office.

But, moving on to the point of this thread...

I don't think this front office knows exactly what it wants to be.

We have moves that have occured on the win now side of the coin and the rebuilding side of the coin. There is an argument that you can do both at the same time, however it feels like we've been doing both for the last 20 years and have yielded very little in the way of results.

It's my philosophy, that at this point, we need to pick one and stick with it, and for the record it's my opinion that we need to hit the reset button and rebuild this team.

Here's how I break the moves down:

Win Now
-Trading draft picks for Donovan McNabb
-Trading a draft pick for Jamaal Brown
-Keeping young receivers such as Terrence Austin on the practice squad while older unreliable players have a place on the active roster.
-Signing Larry Johnson and Willie Parker (who have since been cut)
-Keeping Andre Carter on the roster despite the ill fit for his position
-Replacing the slew of veterans we released on Bruce Allen's revival with a slew of old veterans.

Rebuild
-Getting rid of Johnson/Parker in favor of Keiland Williams/Ryan Torain
-Installing a new defensive system with personnel that doesn't fit.
-Not acquiring Randy Moss (which for the record, I'm in favor of)
-Not acquiring different offensive line personnel. Pickings were slim, and continue to be, but with guys like Kevin Mawae on the free agent market, who is a clear upgrade over Rabach, we appear to be rebuilding. However, Rabach himself is old and we're not giving anyone else a shot at center, which is a win now move (:ols:)
-Anthony Armstrong seeing significant time
-Releasing the slew of vets we released upon Bruce Allen's arrival in DC.

There are probably many, many more on either side of the coin. However, the point is we're trying to do both things at once. Some don't believe that this fanbase would stomach a rebuild, but I beg to differ. If it was put out in front of them that we are going to build a young nucleus and build the systems around that talent, I think people would be accepting. The problem is we were told that we should have expectations for this football team. That backfires immediately when you begin to lose.

The McNabb situation is a cluster. No one knows what his status will be next year, despite what experts/insiders have said. McNabb and Brown were clear win now moves and there is a possibility that neither is on the roster come next season. Trading draft picks for players when you're in rebuild mode is not good mojo. Those picks could have been used to at least get a feeler on some young talent. No, draft picks don't always work out, but at least you're giving yourself a chance at getting younger.

To be fair, by not signing Randy Moss or Kevin Mawae, it looks like we're entering rebuild mode, as does the benching of McNabb. But doing it this way is a way that is sure to upset fans. Why? Because we were told to have expectations.

McNabb will be the starter next week again, and he's the best QB on our roster, so he should be. But my issue was with giving up picks for a guy on a team that wasn't ready to compete for a title this year.

These are mistakes that will hurt Shanahan/Allen, but it doesn't damn them, either. They can still right the ship. Next year we should have more pieces of the puzzle in place, and if we can keep our draft picks in future years and stockpile them, then trading for the occasional vet won't hurt much. Let's acquire some picks and build this team from the ground up.

Now, let me also say this: I don't see it happening, but if this team were to compete now and win a Super Bowl I'd be the first one to pull up this post and rag on me for being wrong. But it's not happening. Not with this team. Not yet. I believe that the guys we have in charge are smart football people who made some bad decisions that can be fixed and I won't give up on them quite yet. But it's a rocky start.

Let's evaluate what happens after this season and make a decision, one way or the other. Are we in rebuild mode or in win now mode? I'm fine with either, although I obviously prefer a rebuild. But we need a clear vision and right now our vision is anything but clear.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Look at the last part of your argument and tell me you weren't being hypocritical.

The problem is flushing away all of the **** at once while still fielding a team. I believe that Bang had posted something in relative details. I'll find it later...

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

[PeterMP]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.
But being 8-8 actually makes it harder to rebuild because through out the draft your picks are worse.

There is value in being REALLY REALLY bad in terms of rebuilding.

Much less losing the picks makes it much harder to get the new talent to put around the new QB.

[Dick Edds]

great post, when I look at team like the Rams and the Lions ... I get a little jealous. They suffered for several years, but their 4-4 and 2-5 records look so much more promising ... because they ARE young teams with franchise QB's and are playing above their fan base's expectations. They are improving each week and each year and have a strong nucleus of young players to build around.

We are 4-4, but it;s different ... we've been on the lucky side of the coin for several of those wins, and while our defense continues to carry us ... there is still really a lot "what if's" on our roster. Bottom line, we do need to make some trades again this off-season and cut some more of our aging vets. It's always sad to see certain players go, but I think we've all past that point. It's time to get young and build this the right way for the future.

I guess I am flip-flopping here, and I do believe in ShanAllen ... but I just want to see "improvement" from week to week and year to year more than anything else. Regardless we need to get some serious help on our offense. Some legit weapons for McNabb and some legit OL'man to protect him.

Damn ... Bradford looks like the real deal ... I was in the "Backers of Bradford" club, and still am being even more impressed with his play and his composure. I think he's gonna be a good one. So is Stafford with the Lions.

[SMOSS89]

When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

But being 8-8 actually makes it harder to rebuild because through out the draft your picks are worse.

There is value in being REALLY REALLY bad in terms of rebuilding.

Much less losing the picks makes it much harder to get the new talent to put around the new QB.


i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

[bird_1972]

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

Look at the Pats.

They have been able to stockpile picks and rebuild the defense all while staying comfortably above .500. We just need a competent scouting dept. I have yet to see the staffing up in this area I was hoping for when Allen took over.

[Metalhead]

Very good post KDawg. This has been my concern as well. Acquiring McNabb was "win now", but the o-line is a patch-work of players while installing a new offense. And bringing in washed-up vet RB's.

I still don't like the fact that we got McNabb, due to how the offense was situated at the time. As a player he is good but it was not the time to spend a high second rounder on an old qb with one year on his contract. Imo, it was a critical bad decision.

[MassSkinsFan]

We have moves that have occured on the win now side of the coin and the rebuilding side of the coin. There is an argument that you can do both at the same time, however it feels like we've been doing both for the last 20 years and have yielded very little in the way of results.

Let's evaluate what happens after this season and make a decision, one way or the other. Are we in rebuild mode or in win now mode? I'm fine with either, although I obviously prefer a rebuild. But we need a clear vision and right now our vision is anything but clear.

I'd say we've been trying to win now (mostly) for the last 20 years. Certainly under the Vinny administration we were in win-now mode, with a side of befuddlement and sacks and stuff. My point is that we have an improved FO, and being able to do both (win now and rebuild) is within the realm of possibility for these guys, whereas tying their own shoes wasn't for the previous regime.

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement either. The vision may not be to your liking, but I think given the way these guys operate, there is a clear plan.

[polywog999]

Being someone who is bi-polar I think you are being very disrespectful. Not all bi-polar people act irrationally or fall off of their "mood swing" while rocking back and forth.

That is all.....thank you.

[Mursilis]

Nice post.


To be fair, by not signing Randy Moss or Kevin Mawae, it looks like we're entering rebuild mode, as does the benching of McNabb.

That would only be true if we replaced McNabb with a young prospect, but sending in Rex Grossman instead? Makes no sense. He's not the future either. I'd have preferred they kept Colt instead of Rex. Sure, odds are Colt wouldn't have been a second coming of Brady (a great 6th round steal), but we already know the whole story on Rex, who is who we thought he was - a turnover machine. When Shanazorn sent in Rexy, he told him to go score six, but never said for which team, and there you go.

[MassSkinsFan]

Being someone who is bi-polar I think you are being very disrespectful. Not all bi-polar people act irrationally or fall off of their "mood swing" while rocking back and forth.

That is all.....thank you.

Wouldn't split personality have been a better descriptor for the OP title?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

First of all...good thread and OP. Secondly, I agree with this. Allen and Shanahan are trying to have their cake and eat it too. I also don't know if that will work, but I think it's clear that we're not in full-blown "win-now" or "rebuild" mode. I would assume (hope) that, if forced to make a decision, we will choose rebuild. Maybe Shanahan believes he can use some of his picks as currency to bring in established players and still infuse the roster with youth. Look at some of the low-round picks/UDFAs who are contributing right now...Armstrong, Banks, Torain, K. Williams, Lichtensteiger, etc. Now, I'm not saying that those guys are all solutions at their positions, but you have to assume that if our front office believes they can hit on 4-5 of those guys each off-season, draft picks become less valuable to them. There are also guys in our pipeline (practice squad) who you have to assume the staff is high on (Austin, Capers, Davis, etc.).

I'm rambling, but in short I agree. I think we're trying to do two things. In the end though, we're a team that probably only has about 25% of its eventual contributors on the active roster right now.

[Mursilis]

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?


Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

true, in order to get those bluechip QBs you usually have to pick in the top 5.

we could always trade up too if theres someone there we really want. but i dont think tanking a year to save one draft pick is a worthwhile trade.

[Duckus]

I don't think our front office bases personnel moves on the win now or rebuild mindset. I think if you try and look at their moves within that mindset it looks scattered and confused. But if you look at it through team players/leaders v individuals the moves start to make a lot more sense.

They got McNabb because he was an instant offensive team leader. Something we have lacked for decades. They got Jamal Brown to be a rock and oline leader over the next several years as they bring in a ton of young and less experienced talent. Were going to see some new faces on the online over the next 2-3 years, and I think the front office wanted a vet they could pair with Trent to build around.

The other moves are role players who buy into a system. I think they look for players (and don't care how old or young they are) who buy into the system, will commit to their roles, and be a positive element in the locker room.

They believe that if they have enough leaders, surrounded by enough talented role players they will be successful.

Then again - I have no idea. None of us do, but that is my guess.

[TheLongshot]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

Not sure what your smoking, but getting McNabb was certainly a "win now" move. You don't trade a couple high picks to get a guy to just be competitive. You make the trade because you think he can help the team attain the goal of making the playoffs and going to the Superbowl. That doesn't preclude drafting a QB at some point, but like Gibbs trading for Brunell, the goal of the move is to win now rather than later.


im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

Well, really you should be starting with the OL first, then get the QB. If you don't have an OL, the QB isn't going to do you much good. Unfortunately, the draft isn't a grocery store where you can get everything on your shopping list. Often, you either need to pick what is available to you and fill in where you can, or you make a trade to put yourself in position to pick the player you want.

[Mursilis]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it".

Which is still dumb. Out of the playoffs at 8-8 is the same as out of the playoffs at 3-13. Might as well have kept Campbell then - he can do mediocre, plus we would have kept the draft picks and likely had a higher one next year!

[KDawg]

Look at the last part of your argument and tell me you weren't being hypocritical.

I wasn't being hypocritical.


The problem is flushing away all of the **** at once while still fielding a team. I believe that Bang had posted something in relative details. I'll find it later...

That doesn't mean we needed to sign Joey Galloway and Roydell Williams, or Larry Johnson and Willie Parker. We could have fielded a team without signing the AARP crew ;)


getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

And I feel this is a strategic error. McNabb allows us to be mediocre. Hooray. A repeat of the last 20 years. Had we had a good team in place and made the move, I would have been ecstatic. And it's not McNabb's fault for the situation, either.


im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

No one is. This is a common saying here. We're discussing. Evaluate after the season, but I don't agree with the moves we've made. I think I said as much in the OP, though I may have worded it differently.


But being 8-8 actually makes it harder to rebuild because through out the draft your picks are worse.

There is value in being REALLY REALLY bad in terms of rebuilding.

Much less losing the picks makes it much harder to get the new talent to put around the new QB.

Hammer, meet the nail :)


When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

I don't think it's really possible at all. The Rams and Chiefs did it the right way. Buffalo hasn't, Washington hasn't. We've just got the money to spend on better misfits than they do.


i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

No one said anything about being "horrible". Who says we couldn't have fielded a young, decent team? Other than the OL issues, which would haunt us either way.

I also disagree that pick 13 isn't different than a top 5 pick. This year seems to be a QB rich draft. A top pick would allow us an opportunity at a QB, if that's the direction we would turn. And here's the thing, if we wound up having a good season with young guys, then guess what? We have a nucleus in place. A good season with old guys just means we have to replace them all.


I'd say we've been trying to win now (mostly) for the last 20 years. Certainly under the Vinny administration we were in win-now mode, with a side of befuddlement and sacks and stuff. My point is that we have an improved FO, and being able to do both (win now and rebuild) is within the realm of possibility for these guys, whereas tying their own shoes wasn't for the previous regime.

As I said in the OP, I agree our FO is better. I don't think we can do both. We've tried that for years with many different coaches/GMs and failed. But hey, I hope you're right here. I'd love to eat my words.


I'm not sure I agree with your last statement either. The vision may not be to your liking, but I think given the way these guys operate, there is a clear plan.

I don't see a vision. Has nothing to do with my liking.


Being someone who is bi-polar I think you are being very disrespectful. Not all bi-polar people act irrationally or fall off of their "mood swing" while rocking back and forth.

That is all.....thank you.

I think you're being sensitive. I never said anything about acting irrationally or falling off their mood swing. I said we don't know what we want. The definition of bi-polar is as follows:

bi·po·lar   /baɪˈpoʊlər/ Show Spelled
Show IPA

–adjective
1. having two poles, as the earth.
2. of, pertaining to, or found at both polar regions.
[b]3. characterized by opposite extremes, as two conflicting political philosophies.
4. Electronics . of or pertaining to a transistor that uses both positive and negative charge carriers.

The bolded one is the meaning I chose to use. Win now and rebuilding are conflicting philosophies.




That would only be true if we replaced McNabb with a young prospect, but sending in Rex Grossman instead? Makes no sense.

I do agree with this. Good point.


Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

Absolutely.


Wouldn't split personality have been a better descriptor for the OP title?

I feel the word used fits what I describe. And it certainly wasn't an insult. It was commentary.

[PeterMP]

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.
But it isn't just the first round. It is in EVERY round.

And if you think the value is about the same for a pick, then you can always trade the pick. If the 4th pick isn't much different than the 14th pick, then you trade the 4th pick and add other picks.

Having more picks will make it easier to find that QB you were talking about.

The Patriots and Steelers ARE REALLY rGOOD. It is easier to mantain being really good than becoming really good. They are destinations for players because they are good. It is harder to get people like Alge Crumpler to come play for a team that is looking to about 8-8 rather than the Patriots.

All things being equal those players are going to go the team that has a chance of being really good.

[Mursilis]

true, in order to get those bluechip QBs you usually have to pick in the top 5.

we could always trade up too if theres someone there we really want. but i dont think tanking a year to save one draft pick is a worthwhile trade.

Maybe, but what if we end up 7-9 or 6-10 anyway, with McNabb, and minus the draft picks? How's that better? KDawg is right - the front office needs to pick a philosophy and stick with it, because right now, the approach seems to be, lose now, and build toward losses in the future.

[KDawg]

I don't think our front office bases personnel moves on the win now or rebuild mindset. I think if you try and look at their moves within that mindset it looks scattered and confused. But if you look at it through team players/leaders v individuals the moves start to make a lot more sense.

They got McNabb because he was an instant offensive team leader. Something we have lacked for decades. They got Jamal Brown to be a rock and oline leader over the next several years as they bring in a ton of young and less experienced talent. Were going to see some new faces on the online over the next 2-3 years, and I think the front office wanted a vet they could pair with Trent to build around.

You very well may be correct, but I view that as a flawed strategy. Why? Because there are reports saying Shanahan isn't happy with some of the things McNabb brings to the table. Well, he hasn't been any different than he was in Philadelphia. He wasn't magically going to change the way he is after, what, a decade, in the league. And to top that off, we spent draft picks on two guys without contracts. Sure, we can still sign them. But we haven't yet. And it may be because we don't view them as good enough, or it may be because they don't want to, or it may have to do with the CBA, who knows. But there's still a chance we gave up picks for a year rental. Which is why you don't give up picks.

Put it this way, I'm annoyed at what we did as far as trading picks goes... But if I was a Viking fan and we gave up a 3rd for a couple weeks of Randy Moss I'd be livid.


Which is still dumb. Out of the playoffs at 8-8 is the same as out of the playoffs at 3-13. Might as well have kept Campbell then - he can do mediocre, plus we would have kept the draft picks and likely had a higher one next year!

I've been saying the same. In a rebuild it doesn't matter who QBs your team, so if that was the vision (obviously, it's not) then you go with someone who doesn't cost picks. Campbell, Grossman, Brennan, JaMarcus Russell, JP Losman... Whoever.

[JPCreativelab]

my opinion:

McNabb is not a WIN NOW move. He is a move set up to strengthen us at the QB position and in leadership. He is put in place to help transition a rookie QB into a starting job in the next few years. If McNabb plays well, gives us a winning record...or even gets us to the playoffs or the super bowl in those couple years, even better. But I view McNabb's presence here with the Redskins as a leadership role...A better locker room leader than Campbell with the ability to get us into the playoffs if that is in the cards. And to train and mentor a rookie for us for the future.

[Mursilis]

Win Now
-Trading draft picks for Donovan McNabb
-Trading a draft pick for Jamaal Brown
-Keeping young receivers such as Terrence Austin on the practice squad while older unreliable players have a place on the active roster.
-Signing Larry Johnson and Willie Parker (who have since been cut)
-Keeping Andre Carter on the roster despite the ill fit for his position
-Replacing the slew of veterans we released on Bruce Allen's revival with a slew of old veterans.


Just want to add:
-Cutting Devin Thomas. Sure, he probably needed to mature, but who had more upside for the future - Galloway/R. Williams, or Thomas? I still suspect this move may look foolish in the future, but who knows?

[PeterMP]

true, in order to get those bluechip QBs you usually have to pick in the top 5.

we could always trade up too if theres someone there we really want. but i dont think tanking a year to save one draft pick is a worthwhile trade.
Trade what picks?

Remember, you have already traded picks, AND you still need pieces to put around the QB.

[KDawg]

my opinion:

McNabb is not a WIN NOW move. He is a move set up to strengthen us at the QB position and in leadership. He is put in place to help transition a rookie QB into a starting job in the next few years. If McNabb plays well, gives us a winning record...or even gets us to the playoffs or the super bowl in those couple years, even better. But I view McNabb's presence here with the Redskins as a leadership role...A better locker room leader than Campbell with the ability to get us into the playoffs if that is in the cards. And to train and mentor a rookie for us for the future.

This is a good point, but there's an issue with it. I saw it this way as well, but the problem is two fold.

One, we don't have another QB learning behind McNabb. Beck is old and Grossman is not the answer. This can be addressed via the draft this year, or maybe free agency, I don't know the young QB free agent class or if there even is one.

Two, McNabb is only under contract for this year. This can be remedied. But it hasn't been yet.

If this was truly the plan, and not a win now move, don't you think something would be in place to make it look like that?

I don't mock your line of thinking, I originally had the same thought behind the McNabb trade. But I don't believe that now. It was a win now move.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Not sure what your smoking, but getting McNabb was certainly a "win now" move. You don't trade a couple high picks to get a guy to just be competitive. You make the trade because you think he can help the team attain the goal of making the playoffs and going to the Superbowl. That doesn't preclude drafting a QB at some point, but like Gibbs trading for Brunell, the goal of the move is to win now rather than later.

Well, really you should be starting with the OL first, then get the QB. If you don't have an OL, the QB isn't going to do you much good. Unfortunately, the draft isn't a grocery store where you can get everything on your shopping list. Often, you either need to pick what is available to you and fill in where you can, or you make a trade to put yourself in position to pick the player you want.


look at what gibbs did vs what shanny is doing. its 100% different.

gibbs signed like 10 starter free agents, traded the farm for portis, got brunell. i mean the entire 2004 roster was littered with vets. griffin, washington, springs, sellers, portis, thrash, big joe, daniels, brunell. the list is probably bigger than that. i think outside of arrington, pierce, and taylor as a rookie, our entire starting defense that year was made up of brand new free agents. on offense he went out and got brunell, thrash, portis, ray brown, probably others i cant remember. that whole 04 team was just vets and castoffs from spurriers year that most were gone the year after.

look at shanny. mcnabb is maybe the only real vet contributor he brought in. he gave a chance to two crappy vet RBs, both were cut way early and their jobs given to inexperienced guys or rookies, he went with a guy from the dolphins practice squad for our 2nd WR (and galloway will be gone sooner than later), drafted a rookie LT, is starting inexperienced guys on the line, inactivated our best vet OL (dockery), and im not sure we added a single starter on defense outside of carriker who is young.

if you can honestly look at our current roster and say with a straight face that were trying to "win now", youre out of your mind.

[PeterMP]

my opinion:

McNabb is not a WIN NOW move. He is a move set up to strengthen us at the QB position and in leadership. He is put in place to help transition a rookie QB into a starting job in the next few years. If McNabb plays well, gives us a winning record...or even gets us to the playoffs or the super bowl in those couple years, even better. But I view McNabb's presence here with the Redskins as a leadership role...A better locker room leader than Campbell with the ability to get us into the playoffs if that is in the cards. And to train and mentor a rookie for us for the future.
And what the heck makes you think McNabb is going to be around here for a couple of more years under those conditions?

Just MAYBE McNabb wants to play for an organization that is REALLY trying to give him another shot at the SuperBowl before he retires, and isn't of the attitude, well if we make it that's great, but it is really about building for the next QB.

(I won't even get into finding the next QB.)

[Mursilis]

I've been saying the same. In a rebuild it doesn't matter who QBs your team, so if that was the vision (obviously, it's not) then you go with someone who doesn't cost picks. Campbell, Grossman, Brennan, JaMarcus Russell, JP Losman... Whoever.

Yup. Campbell's done 8-8 before. Heck, the combo platter of Jeff George/Tony Banks did 8-8 back in the day! Now Schotty, that was a rebuild the right way, for the most part. How stupid is that McNabb move going to look if he leaves? We'll be right back at the beginning re the QB position, AND we'll be down TWO picks on a team desperate for depth and youth!

[KDawg]

if you can honestly look at our current roster and say with a straight face that were trying to "win now", youre out of your mind.

Then why trade picks for guys that aren't going to make us legit contenders. And again, that's not McNabb's fault. He doesn't have the supporting cast. And its alot tougher to get a supporting cast without picks.

[The Mayor]

I think the McNabb decision was an attempt to hold together a team that had very little talent...of any age. McNabb will sign an extension and will help develop a young QB drafted, probably, next year. As for a patch-work O-line, they did all they could with what they had. I expect them to draft more O-line talent and/or sign free agent O-lineman in the offseason.

It was planned this way, with a mix of "old" talent and "new" talent. We fans may not understand or agree, but I do believe this was carefully planned. I do think that the coaches expected more from McNabb and the offense and they're grasping at anything that might jump-start the offense.

[TheLongshot]

Just to respond to the original post. The only real "Win Now" moves are McNabb and to a lesser extent, Brown. McNabb is 33 and has more years behind him than in front of him. At best, he's a stopgap until whoever we get next replaces him. Brown is just 29, so he potentially has years ahead of him to play and the FO figured that he was better than many players who could be selected in the 3rd-4th round. (Course, it isn't turning out that way so far...)

The signing of aging veterans was more out of necessity than anything, given the FA situation this offseason. Someone needed to fill the slots, so they got who was available for relatively cheap. There weren't any big-name signings designed to win now. Also, in general you are going to play veterans over young players until the young players prove that they are ready to play. Armstrong is a good example.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Maybe, but what if we end up 7-9 or 6-10 anyway, with McNabb, and minus the draft picks? How's that better? KDawg is right - the front office needs to pick a philosophy and stick with it, because right now, the approach seems to be, lose now, and build toward losses in the future.

if we end up at 6-10 with mcnabb then we'll have good picks for next year, and hopefully a resigned franchise QB for at least one more year.

if we get to 8-8 with this garbage offensive roster we have now that means adding some players next year should help us get even better.

this is a 2-3 year plan. we should be talking about this after the 2012 season cause as of now, its a major work in progress. if we beat the lions last week this thread probably doesnt exist and were sitting at 5-3.

[PeterMP]

look at what gibbs did vs what shanny is doing. its 100% different.

gibbs signed like 10 starter free agents, traded the farm for portis, got brunell. i mean the entire 2004 roster was littered with vets. griffin, washington, springs, sellers, portis, thrash, big joe, daniels, brunell. the list is probably bigger than that. i think outside of arrington, pierce, and taylor as a rookie, our entire starting defense that year was made up of brand new free agents. on offense he went out and got brunell, thrash, portis, ray brown, probably others i cant remember. that whole 04 team was just vets and castoffs from spurriers year that most were gone the year after.

look at shanny. mcnabb is maybe the only real vet contributor he brought in. he gave a chance to two crappy vet RBs, both were cut way early and their jobs given to inexperienced guys or rookies, he went with a guy from the dolphins practice squad for our 2nd WR (and galloway will be gone sooner than later), drafted a rookie LT, is starting inexperienced guys on the line, inactivated our best vet OL (dockery), and im not sure we added a single starter on defense outside of carriker who is young.

if you can honestly look at our current roster and say with a straight face that were trying to "win now", youre out of your mind.
There is not a single position on this team where they aren't playing the best possible player.

The young RBs are playing because the older ones were REALLY REALLY bad. If LJ was better than Torrain, he'd still be here and be playing. There isn't a single position where they are saying we are going to put guy X out there and take our lumps with his mistakes and other things because in 2-3 years, he's going to be the better player, and having him out there now will speed the process up.

The FA pool this year was very weak and very shallow because of CBA and unrestricted free agents.

[Mursilis]

if you can honestly look at our current roster and say with a straight face that were trying to "win now", youre out of your mind.

If you can honestly look at our draft picks traded away for aged/injured guys and say with a straight face that we're trying to "build for the future", you're out of your mind.

[KDawg]

I think the McNabb decision was an attempt to hold together a team that had very little talent...of any age.

I can buy this line of thinking, for sure.


McNabb will sign an extension and will help develop a young QB drafted, probably, next year. As for a patch-work O-line, they did all they could with what they had. I expect them to draft more O-line talent and/or sign free agent O-lineman in the offseason.

It was planned this way, with a mix of "old" talent and "new" talent. We fans may not understand or agree, but I do believe this was carefully planned. I do think that the coaches expected more from McNabb and the offense and they're grasping at anything that might jump-start the offense.

This I can't buy. When it happens, I'll believe it.


Just to respond to the original post. The only real "Win Now" moves are McNabb and to a lesser extent, Brown. McNabb is 33 and has more years behind him than in front of him. At best, he's a stopgap until whoever we get next replaces him. Brown is just 29, so he potentially has years ahead of him to play and the FO figured that he was better than many players who could be selected in the 3rd-4th round. (Course, it isn't turning out that way so far...)

But they were win now moves. And in doing so it effected us in many ways. One, we lost draft picks to help supply a nucleus. Two, we have to find a way to get these guys under contract for another year, if they're deemed good enough/they want to be here. Three, we still need a QB to replace McNabb in a few years.


The signing of aging veterans was more out of necessity than anything, given the FA situation this offseason. Someone needed to fill the slots, so they got who was available for relatively cheap. There weren't any big-name signings designed to win now. Also, in general you are going to play veterans over young players until the young players prove that they are ready to play. Armstrong is a good example.

Armstrong appeared to be more ready than Galloway in the preseason. We didn't need to sign Willie Parker or Larry Johnson. People believed they would get the job now and help us win. That's a win now move that backfired.

[KDawg]

if we end up at 6-10 with mcnabb then we'll have good picks for next year, and hopefully a resigned franchise QB for at least one more year.

The bolded, underlined and italic part scares the crap out of me.


if we get to 8-8 with this garbage offensive roster we have now that means adding some players next year should help us get even better.

In theory. But then you take into account that we'll only get older next year and maybe more pieces of the puzzle to replace. And that also assumes Brown/McNabb resign. Although, Brown has been "meh" anyways, so the only real loss on him will be that draft pick. But he's also coming off a major injury, so he could improve next year.


this is a 2-3 year plan. we should be talking about this after the 2012 season cause as of now, its a major work in progress. if we beat the lions last week this thread probably doesnt exist and were sitting at 5-3.

I don't know if I would have created this thread or not if we won. I've been saying this for weeks on the forum. It's not a one loss panic kind of post. It's what I believe to be my honest assessment. But I do agree this is a long term plan. I just don't know if the plan was even crystal clear in the FOs eyes. Or maybe it was, but they saw things a bit different than I did. And hey, they're the professionals... Not me. But that doesn't mean I can't say "huh?" :)

[Homercles82]

Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

So what are you advocating? You want the team go 4-12 again? I don't understand this mentality.

[Mursilis]

Armstrong appeared to be more ready than Galloway in the preseason. We didn't need to sign Willie Parker or Larry Johnson. People believed they would get the job now and help us win. That's a win now move that backfired.

I have to disagree with this. In my mind, it's OK to try out old vets if they cost you little in cap space (not an issue this year), and nothing in draft picks. Sure, give them a shot, see if they still have it, and send them home if they don't - no harm, no foul. It's good to have a mix in camp - youth and vets. I don't have a problem so much with those moves, and they were cut, so there's no real negative long-term impact.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If you can honestly look at our draft picks traded away for aged/injured guys and say with a straight face that we're trying to "build for the future", you're out of your mind.

we traded a 3/4 for a franchise QB and a 29 year old RT. we also get an extra pick from the saints, most likely a 5th. you can still build for the future with what weve got (also considering how much talent we have on the defensive side of the ball).

offensive talent is the real serious issue. we're depleted almost everywhere. that can be fixed over 2 good drafts and some FA pickups. im far from worried at the moment about the future of this team.

[KDawg]

So what are you advocating? You want the team go 4-12 again? I don't understand this mentality.

No. Well. Yes.

Let me explain.

I'd rather endure a season or two of 3-13, 4-12 and then be good again than endure seasons of 10-6, 8-8, 8-8, 7-9, 5-11, 6-10, 10-6, 5-11, 9-7, 8-8, 4-12. That's a long stretch of mediocrity with NOTHING to show for it. Hey, if this works and we go 8-8 and everything falls in place and we're a Super Bowl contender, I'll be damn happy. I just don't see it happening right now. But I'll be really happy if it did happen.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Then why trade picks for guys that aren't going to make us legit contenders. And again, that's not McNabb's fault. He doesn't have the supporting cast. And its alot tougher to get a supporting cast without picks.

because we add a franchise QB and a 29 year old RT. if brown can play for 3 years it was a good move for a 4th rounder. mcnabb we give the 3rd for. but we also recoup one pick from the saints, most likely a 5th. so that means going into next year draft we have:

a franchise QB (and even if he doesnt sign we can franchise him)
a franchise LT
a hopefully healthy RT
1st, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 6th, 7th round draft choices. plus an extra 4th rounder from the raiders in 2012 which can easily be traded in this draft for another pick.

we are doing ok at the moment. this isnt a gibbs draft where we have our first rounder and 2 picks in the 7th round.

[Mursilis]

And hey, they're the professionals... Not me. But that doesn't mean I can't say "huh?" :)

Being a professional is over-rated anyway. Allegedly, Chan Gailey is a "professional" too, but I can do what he's doing - I mean, how hard is it to go 0-7?

[Mursilis]

So what are you advocating? You want the team go 4-12 again? I don't understand this mentality.

What I want is a Super Bowl victory. This year. And if that's not possible (which it's clearly not), then next year. So then, ask yourself, what's going to get that Super Bowl title next year, or the year after? Trading away your picks next year just to get 7-8 wins this year? Don't think so.

[Mursilis]

we traded a 3/4 for a franchise QB

OK, maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but didn't the McNabb trade also include a 2nd? Anyone?

[KDawg]

I have to disagree with this. In my mind, it's OK to try out old vets if they cost you little in cap space (not an issue this year), and nothing in draft picks. Sure, give them a shot, see if they still have it, and send them home if they don't - no harm, no foul. It's good to have a mix in camp - youth and vets. I don't have a problem so much with those moves, and they were cut, so there's no real negative long-term impact.

I can see why you disagree and don't fault you. But Ryan Torain was put on the practice squad and was able to be signed by anyone else due to keeping Johnson on the roster. We lucked out. Or we can give credit to the 'Skins FO there, I suppose, for knowing no one would sign Torain. Do whatever you want with that one. But yes, they both got cut, so it's a non point.


we traded a 3/4 for a franchise QB and a 29 year old RT. we also get an extra pick from the saints, most likely a 5th. you can still build for the future with what weve got (also considering how much talent we have on the defensive side of the ball).

offensive talent is the real serious issue. we're depleted almost everywhere. that can be fixed over 2 good drafts and some FA pickups. im far from worried at the moment about the future of this team.

We don't have that much talent on the defensive side of the ball. We have one real good end in 92 (who, if he really tried could be a good nose), but who knows what happens with him this offseason. We have another couple decent ends. We have no real nose. We have an aging middle linebacker (who is the heart and soul of the defense, which needs to be noted) and another inside backer that doesn't really fit. We have one very, very good edge rushing outside backer and one good depth guy that seems to be able to play any position on the field at the other outside spot. We have a corner on the last year of his contract. We don't have a free safety. We have another corner who is a GREAT playmaker but an okay corner and we have a stud strong safety. I see a lot of holes there.

That makes it harder to fix the offense when you have defensive holes as well. But maybe Perry Riley can step up and help fill one of those ILB spots. That was a very good pick, I think. Or maybe I hope. I don't even know any more :ols:

[Old Bay]

I don't know if it's really fair to give grief to Shanahan for stuff Vinny did. Trading picks shouldn't be disallowed because the previous GM failed at it.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

No. Well. Yes.

Let me explain.

I'd rather endure a season or two of 3-13, 4-12 and then be good again than endure seasons of 10-6, 8-8, 8-8, 7-9, 5-11, 6-10, 10-6, 5-11, 9-7, 8-8, 4-12. That's a long stretch of mediocrity with NOTHING to show for it. Hey, if this works and we go 8-8 and everything falls in place and we're a Super Bowl contender, I'll be damn happy. I just don't see it happening right now. But I'll be really happy if it did happen.


glad you brought this up. remember the last time the skins did this?

in 1993 the skins went 4-12 with a vet roster that had lost it. they had the 3rd overall pick, awesome, draft a franchise QB. heath shuler. and that didnt work out.
then they went 3-13, another high draft pick, time to draft another great player. michael westbrook. that didnt work out at all.
they go 6-10, trade picks, and draft an offensive lineman in the 1st round. i think he was cut in training camp.

point is tanking a few seasons doesnt always work out to your advantage. smart picks with competent people in charge work to your advantage. IMO we have that at the moment. hopefully lol!

[Homercles82]

What I want is a Super Bowl victory. This year. And if that's not possible (which it's clearly not), then next year. So then, ask yourself, what's going to get that Super Bowl title next year, or the year after? Trading away your picks next year just to get 7-8 wins this year? Don't think so.

So assuming we kept our picks and not traded McNabb who would have drafted with those picks that would immediately place us into contention for the Super Bowl next year?

There needs to be a proper combination of veteran players, players in their prime and youth.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

OK, maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but didn't the McNabb trade also include a 2nd? Anyone?

that 2nd was this season, its in the past at this point. im looking at the future.

a 2nd and 3rd spread over 2 drafts for a franchise QB is not a lot IMO. look at how much our 3 2nd rounders from 08 have worked out.

[TheLongshot]

look at what gibbs did vs what shanny is doing. its 100% different.

It is different, but not because of building philosophy but of the situation they inherited and the availablity of players. Gibbs inherited a team that 4 D-Coordinators in 4 years and a star CB who was unhappy with the FO (and if you believe the rumors, other reasons to get out of town) and needed to be shipped. Given that, it is not a shocker that an overhaul of the defense was needed. Shanahan, on the other hand, inherited a defense that has been pretty stable for 6 years. Had he stuck with the 4-3, there shouldn't have been a lot of adjustments to get the unit to perform.

Portis was more a direct result of needing to trade Bailey and trying to get the best value in return. While some disagree, Gibbs felt paying a little extra to get a Pro Bowl player in return for a Pro Bowl player was worth it.

As for who we got, do you really think if there were more players available in FA we would have been simply satisfied to sit on the sidelines and get a lot of the old and broken down veterans we did get? Had it been a normal FA period, I would expect that Shanahan would have done more to improve the line over what we have right now. We might have been able to get a real NT rather than the broken-down Kemo.


if you can honestly look at our current roster and say with a straight face that were trying to "win now", youre out of your mind.

Which is why trading for McNabb was always a head scratcher. Fact is, with the roster we have, it is going to be very difficult to win even with the best QBs. So, why trade two high picks for a QB who has been pretty good in his career, but is 33 year old and injury prone when you don't really have the other parts?

Also, Shanahan said himself that he wants to win now. Course, all head coaches say that. Their view is limited to the current year. That's why I don't like coaches having control over player personnel. They generally don't have the larger picture in mind. That was Gibbs' fatal flaw.

[KDawg]

glad you brought this up. remember the last time the skins did this?

in 1993 the skins went 4-12 with a vet roster that had lost it. they had the 3rd overall pick, awesome, draft a franchise QB. heath shuler. and that didnt work out.
then they went 3-13, another high draft pick, time to draft another great player. michael westbrook. that didnt work out at all.
they go 6-10, trade picks, and draft an offensive lineman in the 1st round. i think he was cut in training camp.

point is tanking a few seasons doesnt always work out to your advantage. smart picks with competent people in charge work to your advantage. IMO we have that at the moment. hopefully lol!

BLC, I agree, it can be a risky strategy... But, I have ALOT of confidence in this FO (mostly Bruce Allen) to do it differently. But I think for Allen to do it better, he needs to be in a rebuild mode or a win now mode. This is a point that I concede can be argued, for sure. I agree that we have competent people in charge now, which is why I think we would fare a bit differently.

[Homercles82]

that 2nd was this season, its in the past at this point. im looking at the future.

a 2nd and 3rd spread over 2 drafts for a franchise QB is not a lot IMO. look at how much our 3 2nd rounders from 08 have worked out.

Great points BLC. Draft picks, while necessary, are often overrated, especially early draft picks.

[Homercles82]

Also, Shanahan said himself that he wants to win now.

When did he say this?

[KDawg]

Great points BLC. Draft picks, while necessary, are often overrated, especially early draft picks.

And to flip the coin, because I don't disagree with you necessarily... Draft picks are also often undervalued, which has been the Redskins MO.

EDIT: We're on page four and I think we're having a VERY good conversation here. No one is getting hurt feelings and everyone seems to be bringing at the very least decent arguments to the table. Great job to all involved so far, hopefully we can keep having this good conversation :)

[dadirtbags]

When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

I have to agree...I also think Shanny has been trying to orchestrate chemistry with the combo of picking up free agents...draft picks...surrounded by vets who know what it takes to win...I will also say this...I believe some free agents chose other teams...so I would imagine if we got our wish list of free agents...we might be in better shape than what we are in right now...If we dont do so good this year...I really hope Shanny gets what he needs for next season...if he does...I think we will se a much improved Skins team...JMHO

[PeterMP]

glad you brought this up. remember the last time the skins did this?

in 1993 the skins went 4-12 with a vet roster that had lost it. they had the 3rd overall pick, awesome, draft a franchise QB. heath shuler. and that didnt work out.
then they went 3-13, another high draft pick, time to draft another great player. michael westbrook. that didnt work out at all.
they go 6-10, trade picks, and draft an offensive lineman in the 1st round. i think he was cut in training camp.

point is tanking a few seasons doesnt always work out to your advantage. smart picks with competent people in charge work to your advantage. IMO we have that at the moment. hopefully lol!
Yeah, and if the current people making the decisions is as inept as that group, there is no way we will transition from where we are to anything remotely resembling a playoff team.

[Mursilis]

that 2nd was this season, its in the past at this point. im looking at the future.


Colt McCoy and Jimmy Clausen were both there when the Eagles used our 2nd in the 2010 draft. If we'd have kept it, we could have had one of those guys.

And what's the point of having a franchise QB if he doesn't get you into the playoffs?

[KDawg]

Colt McCoy and Jimmy Clausen were both there when the Eagles used our 2nd in the 2010 draft. If we'd have kept it, we could have had one of those guys.

And what's the point of having a franchise QB if he doesn't get you into the playoffs?

I believe their reasoning is that they believe he'll be here for another 2-3 years, still be effective, and help guide the team to the playoffs then.

I wish I had their confidence that everything would line up. I guess I've been semi tainted by watching this team the last 20 years or so.

[TheLongshot]

When did he say this?

http://blog.redskins.com/2010/07/23/mike-shanahan-doesnt-want-you-tempering-your-expectations/

At least, that's the impression I have. Course, getting McNabb put expectations up a lot higher than they probably should have been.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

BLC, I agree, it can be a risky strategy... But, I have ALOT of confidence in this FO (mostly Bruce Allen) to do it differently. But I think for Allen to do it better, he needs to be in a rebuild mode or a win now mode. This is a point that I concede can be argued, for sure. I agree that we have competent people in charge now, which is why I think we would fare a bit differently.

i do too, and i honestly wouldnt mind a few seasons of bad football if i thought it was gonna net us some positive returns in the long haul. its what the nationals are doing and weve gotten harper and strasburg out of it. i know baseball is different but sometimes being crappy and having high draft picks doesnt work, so its a bigger risk to do that. the browns, rams, lions have been stuck in that rut for a long time, and even now theyre teams with all that talent are still struggling, tho it looks like st louis might be pulling out of that.

lets be honest tho, snyder is never gonna tank this team on purpose, or in essence mortgage the present for the future. the majority of this fan base would go insane because they wont be able to handle us doing that. the fan base is so rabid that losing like that would kill this city. we always have to be trying to do something, and resting for 2 seasons to gain picks and youth is just not gonna happen.

i think the way were going about it now is a good idea. we remain respectable but we are still going to be adding youth at key positions over the next 2-3 years.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Colt McCoy and Jimmy Clausen were both there when the Eagles used our 2nd in the 2010 draft. If we'd have kept it, we could have had one of those guys.

And what's the point of having a franchise QB if he doesn't get you into the playoffs?


the point of having a franchise QB for this team is it keeps us competitive and respectable. and were far from out of the playoffs, were 4-4 right in the thick of it in the NFC. in 05 we were sitting at 5-6 and still made the playoffs, we also made it in 07 with todd collins at 9-7. nothing says we cant repeat that with a few good games down the stretch.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

First of all...good thread and OP. Secondly, I agree with this. Allen and Shanahan are trying to have their cake and eat it too. I also don't know if that will work, but I think it's clear that we're not in full-blown "win-now" or "rebuild" mode. I would assume (hope) that, if forced to make a decision, we will choose rebuild. Maybe Shanahan believes he can use some of his picks as currency to bring in established players and still infuse the roster with youth. Look at some of the low-round picks/UDFAs who are contributing right now...Armstrong, Banks, Torain, K. Williams, Lichtensteiger, etc. Now, I'm not saying that those guys are all solutions at their positions, but you have to assume that if our front office believes they can hit on 4-5 of those guys each off-season, draft picks become less valuable to them. There are also guys in our pipeline (practice squad) who you have to assume the staff is high on (Austin, Capers, Davis, etc.).

I'm rambling, but in short I agree. I think we're trying to do two things. In the end though, we're a team that probably only has about 25% of its eventual contributors on the active roster right now.

This is a good post right here.

Pretty much clears up what this FO may have in store for this team.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

glad you brought this up. remember the last time the skins did this?

in 1993 the skins went 4-12 with a vet roster that had lost it. they had the 3rd overall pick, awesome, draft a franchise QB. heath shuler. and that didnt work out.
then they went 3-13, another high draft pick, time to draft another great player. michael westbrook. that didnt work out at all.
they go 6-10, trade picks, and draft an offensive lineman in the 1st round. i think he was cut in training camp.

point is tanking a few seasons doesnt always work out to your advantage. smart picks with competent people in charge work to your advantage. IMO we have that at the moment. hopefully lol!

No, it doesn't always work. But, contrary to how most remember the Norv years, that was the last team to truly try to rebuild the traditional way (by building through the draft). Sure, Casserly and Turner missed on the guys they drafted (Shuler, Westbrook, etc.). But they spent a couple drafts attempting to sign their future nucleus and actually got some pieces right (Tre Johnson as the the LT, for example).

And, in 3 years they went from 3-13 to 6-10 to 9-7. So, despite missing on two very high draft picks, they had the team in contention in a couple years. Imagine what might have transpired in the late-1990s had they hit on one or both of those picks?

I think, when all is said and done, this regime is still going to do something similar to that. It just appears that they won't start that rebuild immediately. Maybe they are bringing in some smaller-scale guys that they believe will be contributors (Banks, Armstrong, Austin, Capers, Davis, Riley, etc.) and will add the big-time names in the next couple seasons (Williams is already here as part of that foundation). In the meantime, they have McNabb, Moss, Brown, Fletcher, Daniels, etc. and can wait a year or two to find the right guys to backfill for them.

We'll see. But if I had to choose, I'd take a true rebuild any day of the week.

[Mursilis]

i do too, and i honestly wouldnt mind a few seasons of bad football if i thought it was gonna net us some positive returns in the long haul. its what the nationals are doing and weve gotten harper and strasburg out of it. i know baseball is different but sometimes being crappy and having high draft picks doesnt work, so its a bigger risk to do that. the browns, rams, lions have been stuck in that rut for a long time, and even now theyre teams with all that talent are still struggling, tho it looks like st louis might be pulling out of that.

How funny is it that you named two teams that have beaten us this year?


lets be honest tho, snyder is never gonna tank this team on purpose, or in essence mortgage the present for the future. the majority of this fan base would go insane because they wont be able to handle us doing that. the fan base is so rabid that losing like that would kill this city. we always have to be trying to do something, and resting for 2 seasons to gain picks and youth is just not gonna happen.


Heck, after last season, we were halfway there to a 2-season tanking!

[MassSkinsFan]

I don't think our front office bases personnel moves on the win now or rebuild mindset. I think if you try and look at their moves within that mindset it looks scattered and confused. But if you look at it through team players/leaders v individuals the moves start to make a lot more sense.


I As I said in the OP, I agree our FO is better. I don't think we can do both. We've tried that for years with many different coaches/GMs and failed. But hey, I hope you're right here. I'd love to eat my words.

Me too. :)


I don't see a vision. Has nothing to do with my liking.

See the Duckus post above - I may be mistaken about whether your liking the moves or not has anything to do with your perception of lack of a vision, but I think he does hit the nail on the head. The context and expectations influence the perception. If you look at the moves solely in context of win-now v. rebuild, your point is valid, but I don't think that's how the FO is looking at it, which is why I maintain they do have a plan and a vision which is clear to them, even though it isn't clear to a lot of fans.


I feel the word used fits what I describe. And it certainly wasn't an insult. It was commentary.

I know it wasn't an insult. Sorry, just me being a wise-ass M*******. I've lived here so long that it's rubbed off. I blame the Irish for bringing their sarcasm here and inflicting it on us. I should have used one of these: :silly: The biggest compliment from someone in Boston is an insult.

[flock53]

The difference between us and the Rams/Lions is that THEY finally got the FO/coaches right. All the Millen picks---GONE and in a matter of only 2 years are back to respectability. It starts w/ getting the franchise QB right and unfortunately those are in the top 5 picks unless its a deep class like Rivers/Eli/Ben. I believe this upcoming year is maybe one of those years. I so wanted Spags as coach when he became available. Regardless you need them for a good 4-5 years to turn things around and Snyder hasnt done that. Obviously Zorn/Spurrier were wrong moves and didnt deserve that long, we should have kept Marty. This will be a LONG thing as we have SO MANY holes: Interior OL, WR, QB, DL and LBs.
I would rather bring in Juron to run a 4-3, he has ALWAYS had REAL GOOD defenses. Orakpo, Haynesworth, Carriker and Jarmon/Carter as DL would be a solid if not DOMINATING front 4.
But this offseason stuff is weeks away and have to see if there will even be a season next year.

[holmester]

Part of the problem is us. The fanbase. If Shanahan came out and said we were going to rebuild for the next 2-3 years and we had consecutive 3-13 to 6-10 seasons we would have idiots sending in their fancards, not going to games or booing while there, and demanding Shanahan to be fired. I mean we already have people wanting him fired after one questionable decision. We are why this team can't rebuild.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Part of the problem is us. The fanbase. If Shanahan came out and said we were going to rebuild for the next 2-3 years and we had consecutive 3-13 to 6-10 seasons we would have idiots sending in their fancards, not going to games or booing while there, and demanding Shanahan to be fired. I mean we already have people wanting him fired after one questionable decision. We are why this team can't rebuild.

the fan card thing last season was 100% different than rebuilding. we just wanted vinny fired. you should be thanking us for that btw lol.

but i do agree, a lot of fans would cry to the hills and just couldnt take it.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Part of the problem is us. The fanbase. If Shanahan came out and said we were going to rebuild for the next 2-3 years and we had consecutive 3-13 to 6-10 seasons we would have idiots sending in their fancards, not going to games or booing while there, and demanding Shanahan to be fired. I mean we already have people wanting him fired after one questionable decision. We are why this team can't rebuild.

I don't think that would be the case at all. I really don't. You might lose some of the casual fans who tune in for 3 hours per week to watch the games and refer to the owner as "Schneider" but I don't think you'd lose a large section of the fan base if you said that we're going to rebuild and it might take us 3-4 years to be competitive.

[Capt Rich Fla]

I'm with you guys that would rather be 3-13 than 8-8. I always want to win, but the draft pics you lose is too much with 8-8. I don't think you can rebuild AND win at the same time. In a perfect world yes, but look at the last 18 years.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'm with you guys that would rather be 3-13 than 8-8. I always want to win, but the draft pics you lose is too much with 8-8. I don't think you can rebuild AND win at the same time. In a perfect world yes, but look at the last 18 years.

My acceptance of 3-13 isn't strictly to draft 10 slots higher though. It would be an indication that we're letting our young players learn on the field with live bullets. If we finished 3-13 in year 1 while playing a young, potential franchise QB and other young players who are learning how to win, that's more exciting than finishing 6-10 or 7-9 with guys who may not be in the burgundy and gold the next year. The higher draft picks to continue infusing talent are an added bonus, in my opinion.

[TheLongshot]

I'm with you guys that would rather be 3-13 than 8-8. I always want to win, but the draft pics you lose is too much with 8-8. I don't think you can rebuild AND win at the same time. In a perfect world yes, but look at the last 18 years.

Let me modify that: I'd rather be 3-13 with progress being made as the season goes on, rather than 8-8 with a pretty static team that didn't show much improvement. I'd rather not be 3-13, tho. If you are in this league, you are probably pretty awful.

[PeterMP]

Yeah, the people pushing 3-13 vs. 8-8 are giving you a false choice. This team finished 8-8 2 years in a row without McNabb and Galloway.

Certainly, if Shanahan and company are good enough to turn a franchise around without even ever being bad, they would have been good enough to get to something close to 8-8 with Campbell or QB picked up w/o giving up draft picks (e.g. Grossman) and some other young WR.

They are giving you a false choice between being bad and not getting better (e.g. the Browns) and being "good" and going to great. If Shanahan can't go from bad to good, he isn't going to be able to go from being good to great.

I think there is real long term benefit to being REALLY bad, but I don't really care what the record is so much if there was real evidence of actually trying to build something longer term.

Going 8-8 with a bunch of young guys getting a chance is fine with me.

Going 8-8 with multiple positions where you could younger and giving up draft picks for players that right now it doesn't seem like there is a really high probability of being here doesn't make much sense.

[Oldfan]

We're on the same page, KDawg.

North = Build the #1 most talented roster in the NFL

West = Win now

If you make one move to the West, then one to the North and so on, you don't have a plan that will head North or West. You have a Northwest plan.

Northwest = Guranteed mediocrity

[boofMcboof]

We're on the same page, KDawg.

North = Build the #1 most talented roster in the NFL

West = Win now

If you make one move to the West, then one to the North and so on, you don't have a plan that will head North or West. You have a Northwest plan.

Northwest = Guranteed mediocrity


Funny. Northwest = madness and insanity, if I'm remembering correctly from my english classes.

[NoCalMike]

The minute we beat Dallas to open the season, everyone forgot that we were a 4-12, and pretty awful team last year. I will admit I was caught up in the frenzy a little bit too. Beating Dallas in front of everyone is always a fun thing. However I think most of us took the angle that this team was much improved, rather then what has played out, which is that Dallas was an imploding disaster on stand-by.

Ever since Gibbs took this team to the playoffs in 2005 & 2007, it seems like our front office is hell-bent on holding onto to that magic and thinking they can re-capture it.

Lets get be real for a second. Both of those playoff berths required some pretty improbable runs to get there. 5 in a row, and 6 in a row, if I remember correctly.

I keep getting the feeling that there are too many people in charge of this team that think that team from those years still exists somewhere in this current mix of players and instead of just burning down the house and rebuilding, they think that if we insert a certain player here or there, we will magically turn it around instantly.

Here is hoping that regardless of how the rest of this season plays out. This franchise starts taking the steps to rebuild this offseason.

We have a lot of players that can be useful to other teams, but have long outgrown(aka gotten too old and slow) for the roles they are currently asked to play as part of the Washington Redskins.

What we need is draft picks, in bunches. Every draft pick is a chance, so the more you have the better off you are. Putting all our marbles into one or two selections every season is not going to help matters.

I want this FO to stop lying to us, trying to keep our hopes up every year of some mystical Superbowl run that is just around the corner.

[GoDeep81]

If the FO doesnt see the writing on the wall after this, I doubt they ever will.. Im ok with signing DMac.. He's a good leader and influence on youngsters, but imo, thats enough "old veteran experience" we need.. The rest of these guys who are old and slow and not fitting in any longer need to be shown the door.. I also dont really mind the 3-4 D, but we either are seriously under talented at the key positions, or our Defensive coordinator doesnt know how to teach the players where to be.. Or maybe he doesnt know himself? But someonething needs to be addressed on that front sooner rather than later, imo.. We're bad, but shouldnt be THAT bad.. Guys were so wide open I could pass a ball to them, and the running lanes were so wide open I could also run through them.. Something needs to happen there.. Also, the lines on both side of the ball are WEAK!! Do whatever it takes to fix that, A S A P!! That's all I got..

[F-16 CHIEF]

Blah, blah, blah.

That's all little Danny hears.

Quit wasting the key strokes until he's dead and gone. Then, and only then, will the franchise have a chance to succeed.

Until then, we are the laughing stock of professional sports.

[Burgold]

Today, we were so far below mediocre it actually is funny. Okay, it wasn't funny at all, but it should have been.

[Hunter_R]

Mediocre? That's the nicest thing I've ever heard about the team.

[MonkFan8]

Bring up Capers and Austin. This is a bad team. Getting McNabb and extending him was fine, hopefully in 1-2 years we'll be able to contend and a veteran QB will help. But for now, play the young guys over the terrible vets that are underperforming and find a way to ship off some underperforming players to recoup draft picks (even if that means trading someone like Cooley).

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

The problem with this franchise is that it thinks competing is a birthright. Ya know, sometimes I envy the small market teams who have no choice but to blow things up, like the Lions. There's a team that will be a force by 2012.

Why can't we just accept that we suck for once and stop putting bandaids over everything and start from scratch? Just maddening.

[Warhead36]

All these quick fixes and band aids keep burying us into a deeper and deeper hole. Tonight was a result of that. The difference in talent between us and the Eagles is astronomical.

[MustangSteve]

Yeppers bro, they really had me cursing all night, and if this continues, I want to sleep with his wife for pay backs and because shes pretty hot and very rich :drooley:

[Spade]

We're not that bad, this was just Karma coming back to kick our tails, We took out Vick and then he took us out. That goes for the people that wish he was still in jail or ravished by a puppy.

[WVSkinsfan]

I could'nt agree more with you about the FO of the redskins.I personaly put all the blame on the FO exspecially Daniel snyder.He has to be the worst owner in the nfl and ever since he bought the redskins he single handedly has destroyed what once was one of the best football franchises in the league.The guy has done NOTHING but put the franchise in a deep hole and made us the punching bag of jokes for people to make fun of us.Im sick of this guy b/c he clearly does'nt know how to run a team but spend money/waste money on players that come here and do nothing but take the money and do nothing on the field.

We need somebody that knows how to run a team,how to build a team and exspecially a guy who knows how to build a winning team that contends every year.Daniel Snyder is not that guy! He is far from ever being that guy and im tired of antics and tired watching him destroy the Washington Redskins.

[Painkiller]

The difference in talent between us and the Eagles is astronomical.

It really does come down to this. There is no question the Eagles have more talent then the Redskins. Dallas and the Giants do also. We need to put in all the youth on the team, and see what we have here, and where we need to go in the future. This season needs to be an audition for next year now. The worst thing that could happen is that we go on some kind of run, that continues to convince everybody we are one or two players away. We are not.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

It really does come down to this. There is no question the Eagles have more talent then the Redskins. Dallas and the Giants do also. We need to put in all the youth on the team, and see what we have here, and where we need to go in the future. This season needs to be an audition for next year now. The worst thing that could happen is that we go on some kind of run, that continues to convince everybody we are one or two players away. We are not.

That will never happen because Dan Snyder thinks his franchise is above admitting that it sucks.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

It really does come down to this. There is no question the Eagles have more talent then the Redskins. Dallas and the Giants do also. We need to put in all the youth on the team, and see what we have here, and where we need to go in the future. This season needs to be an audition for next year now. The worst thing that could happen is that we go on some kind of run, that continues to convince everybody we are one or two players away. We are not.

You know, I remember saying these exact words during Joe Gibbs' last season with the Redskins, and really we've been the same team since then. There has been very little change since that season because for some reason we thought we had a good team.

This game really doesn't upset me that much, well not at the coaching staff. This game just pisses me off even more at Vinny, Dan, Zorn and Gibbs at just how badly they mismanaged the Redskins over the past 3/4 years.

Our talent level is bottom 3 in the league. We could even have the worst talent level in the league. Which is why I wasn't too surprised when I saw how badly we were getting beaten, we just don't have the talent to matchup with the number of playmakers and their speed. Shanny I think has done a lot with what he has, but we have a severe dearth of talent on this team. Let's face it, there was a reason this team was 4-12 last season, and it wasn't all on the coaching. Until we get more talent in all areas of this team, we should expect to scrap for every win we get, and be exposed when we play with teams with talent lightyears ahead of ours.

[GoDeep81]

If we have a decent GM and Snyder lets him do his job, we'll be able to come back from this while he's still the owner.. If not, it's like someone said above, we'll suck until he's dead and buried..

[fredskins47]

Oh c'mon people. Of course we are one or two players away from contending. The problem is that it is one or two players at every postition, or in the case of the offensive line, four players. We need two RB's, three WR's, 4 O-Linemen, an OLB, two CB's, and two DL's. Oh, and a defensive coordinator. Doesn't matter what talent there is if they are being put in the wrong places constantly.

[jivelikenice]

In regards to the o-line we need to re-stock the 3 interior positions. I'm fine with what we have at Tackle right now and I don't blame this front office for that problem. In an offseason where moves were limited due to the CBA they got 4 new lineman in here and did the best they could.

Wide receivers- Definitely need two. I think Armstrong is capable of at least being a #3 and maybe a #2 depending on how he progresses. Moss, Galloway, & Roydell Williams need to go

Running backs- I'm fine with Torain and WIlliams. I'm really curious to see what James Davis can do. We do need one guy to stabilize the group.

OLB- Definitely needed, probably 2 (depth)

CB- Want to see what Barnes can do...Time to let him play over Buchanon

DL- Ditto for Jarmon. Get him in the damn game and cut Holliday.

[polywog999]

http://karlomongaya.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/spam.jpg

[scruffylookin]

I agree and that's why trading for McNabb was a mistake and the contract extension compounded that mistake.

We need to overhaul the oline. We need receivers. By the time we get those pieces (assuming we ever do) McNabb will be winding it down (assuming he isn't already).

I'm really disappointed that Mike Shanahan didn't just go for the complete rebuild and decided to go the half and half route. Rebuild but try and win. That never works for a bottom feeder. Just the good teams that have a core of winners (Patriots, Steelers) spring to mind.

[CrabR]

We have to stop trying to win it all now by adding 1 or 2 over paid over the hill players. We have not had the talent to win it all for long long time. We continue top mortgage our future by trading away draft choices so we can we now

Look at the pats they have been on top for 10 yrs and they are loaded in next yrs draft. They trade away their primma donnas for draft picks not trade trade picks for primma donnas or ovrated players

[MartinC]

All these quick fixes and band aids keep burying us into a deeper and deeper hole. Tonight was a result of that. The difference in talent between us and the Eagles is astronomical.

This is the thing, before we can start competing we need better talent. We have probably the worst skill position talent on offense in the NFL. Add in the poor Oline especially in the middle and it's actually surprising we have not been worse on offense than we have been. Similar story on defense although we have more talent on that side of the ball just talent for a 4-3 not a 3-4.

This was always more than a one year fix. We are an 8-8 team at best and maybe worse after a butt kicking like this. It will be interesting to see how we respond next week, who wants to play and who mails it in. Also how does Haslett respond to this.

[KDawg]

So, about rebuilding ;)

[KDawg]

I've said it time and time again and here it is again... Rebuild.

[Skinzfever2010]

I've said it time and time again and here it is again... Rebuild.

We cut the youth and groom the Galloway. Its the Redskin way

Hail!

[S.T.real,lights,out]

I totally agree! We need to start over and i feel like if us/the fans see the FO breaking the team up and starting over we really will give them time to build something special. I feel like with McNabb and Trent on the O side of the ball and prob Rak and Fletch maybe Rocky we have a pretty good foundation to start building around. We need to get rid of the guys that dont fit and start over. Stop bringing in older players. The thing that really bothers me is im pretty sure last night they said we have the oldest team in the NFL. And we are still this bad. Bring in the youth and lets see what we have. The season is without a doubt over for us. The Giants and Eagles are by far the best teams in our division and us and Cowgirls are the worst.

[MartinC]

I've said it time and time again and here it is again... Rebuild.

There will be a really significant roster turnover at the end of this year - I think that was always the case but now its a certainty. The problem is with no CBA in place and maybe a delayed free agency its hard to plan. We need a spectacular draft as a start and some key free agent additions and its going to take a couple of years to rebuild this roster.

[KDawg]

There will be a really significant roster turnover at the end of this year - I think that was always the case but now its a certainty. The problem is with no CBA in place and maybe a delayed free agency its hard to plan. We need a spectacular draft as a start and some key free agent additions and its going to take a couple of years to rebuild this roster.

I'm so sick of hearing about the CBA. There are plenty of young guys we could have put on this team instead of the geezers and that has NOTHING to do with the CBA. We have young guys who aren't playing that could be... That's not the CBA, that's our talent evaluation/coaching staff/front office.

[F-16 CHIEF]

We're not that bad, this was just Karma coming back to kick our tails, We took out Vick and then he took us out. That goes for the people that wish he was still in jail or ravished by a puppy.

Right. Again, if the Eagles wanted to, they could have put 80 on us. EASILY.

They are the worst team in the NFL with the worst defense in the NFL and a O that will not score 30 points this year.

Zorn 2.0. Vinny 2.0 in Allen. And Danny 1.0 is still there. So yes, they are that bad.

[F-16 CHIEF]

There will be a really significant roster turnover at the end of this year .

Right. Just like last year when the line was so bad. We said it would be significant. Well, some new faces, but none of quality. You can blame Mr. Allen for that. Vinny 2.0. Except he's terrified to go get anyone. He just goes and gives contracts out to 33 year old QB's and refuses to address the line.

[frankez99]

This sums it up for me:

Giants WRs: Nicks, Smith, Manningham
Eagles WRs: Macklin, Jackson, Avant
Cowboys WRs: Austin, Bryant, Williams

Redskins?

Moss, Galloway, Armstrong.

Absolutely disgusting.

[LD0506]

I'm so sick of hearing about the CBA. There are plenty of young guys we could have put on this team instead of the geezers and that has NOTHING to do with the CBA. We have young guys who aren't playing that could be... That's not the CBA, that's our talent evaluation/coaching staff/front office.

And there's truth in that, and quite a bit more in other posts here. It is virtually impossible to disagree with the position that talentwise we suck, and something needs to be done. Of course, simply wishing that would happen won't make it so. Should we have cut everyone based on last year and started from 0? That's just not feasible. LaRon would be elsewhere based on last year for example. So you gotta see whatcha got, and that process involves stressing the thing 'til it breaks to identify what needs changing the most.

And if the other 31 know we are going to clean out the roster and start over, what makes anyone think we'll get all these great draft picks in return? 5/10c on the dollar, that's how you buy bargains, and that's what they'll do to us. Not saying it shouldn't happen but some people seem to think we are going to have 87 draft picks if we just trade everyone away, and that's foolish.

So you keep a few key players and start a roster full of 5/6th round picks? PLEASE don't tell me y'all think that's gonna be pretty, not right away anyway.

There simply is no good, quick, easy answer to what plagues this thing of ours. It is going to take time, it is going to be hard and it is going to be ugly at times. The sole alternative is trying the quick-fix add-a-name BS that got us here. Man up, take yer lumps today and see where this process takes us.

[Mursilis]

We cut the youth and groom the Galloway. Its the Redskin way

Hail!

Don't forget giving out huge contracts to some other team's declining stars, for whom we gave up draft picks. That's also the Redskins way.

[KDawg]

And there's truth in that, and quite a bit more in other posts here. It is virtually impossible to disagree with the position that talentwise we suck, and something needs to be done. Of course, simply wishing that would happen won't make it so. Should we have cut everyone based on last year and started from 0? That's just not feasible. LaRon would be elsewhere based on last year for example. So you gotta see whatcha got, and that process involves stressing the thing 'til it breaks to identify what needs changing the most.

And if the other 31 know we are going to clean out the roster and start over, what makes anyone think we'll get all these great draft picks in return? 5/10c on the dollar, that's how you buy bargains, and that's what they'll do to us. Not saying it shouldn't happen but some people seem to think we are going to have 87 draft picks if we just trade everyone away, and that's foolish.

So you keep a few key players and start a roster full of 5/6th round picks? PLEASE don't tell me y'all think that's gonna be pretty, not right away anyway.

There simply is no good, quick, easy answer to what plagues this thing of ours. It is going to take time, it is going to be hard and it is going to be ugly at times. The sole alternative is trying the quick-fix add-a-name BS that got us here. Man up, take yer lumps today and see where this process takes us.

Apparently, you're not reading what I'm saying.

I want to rebuild. If that means struggling, fine, but at least we're in the right direction.

Landry is not a geezer, so bringing him up does nothing to combat my point. And cut everyone? No. Don't sign fogies. Or trade for fogies.

We don't even need to use all draft picks, LD0. We could have signed street free agents who are at least young and have a shot of getting better and helping us in the future. The young guys we have are barely playing... Where's Riley been? Terrence Austin? Where's our young defensive line talent? Non existant. We don't need world beaters. Bring in guys that can blossom, and if they don't, they don't. But at least we took a risk on youth and speed rather than go for the old guy who brings us nothing in the future.

More draft picks, though, allow us more young talent, which increases our hit rate.

I don't care what ANYONE says... We aren't rebuilding. I'd love to take my lumps... For a team that had youth. We're old. We're not rebuilding. We're stuck in win now mode. So I reverse what you're saying to me back to you... Take your lumps.