Please keep Stone Hands

[Rpredskins]

Carlos Rogers is an excellent corner and he is young. Lets ignore the hands of stone for a minute. I read on ESPN that he is something like 6th among corners in passes defensed in the last few years.
His coverage skills are noticable just by simply watching games. There are far less passes thrown in his direction (which, in addition to the stone hands, probably contributes to his lack of interceptions).

Whether the redskins want to call this year "rebuilding" or not, you cannot let young talent slip away from you. There is absolutely no reason for it. Letting him walk is, in my opinion, like flushing a 2nd or 3rd round pick down the toilet. Because thats what its going to take to replace him... if we get lucky.

If there is some sort of budget problem, then trade D Hall.

Hopefully they are planning to re-sign him and this whole post is just a pointless rant.

[terrifNick21]

Hopefully they are planning to re-sign him and this whole post is just a pointless rant.

It is either way. :silly:

[Dro89]

hes 30... an wanting the 7-8 mill dollar range id much rather offer few mill more to a player like Johnathan Joseph or even less money to a player like Richard Marshall..

[Hitman21ST]

Carlos Rogers is an excellent corner and he is young. Lets ignore the hands of stone for a minute. I read on ESPN that he is something like 6th among corners in passes defensed in the last few years.
His coverage skills are noticable just by simply watching games. There are far less passes thrown in his direction (which, in addition to the stone hands, probably contributes to his lack of interceptions).

Whether the redskins want to call this year "rebuilding" or not, you cannot let young talent slip away from you. There is absolutely no reason for it. Letting him walk is, in my opinion, like flushing a 2nd or 3rd round pick down the toilet. Because thats what its going to take to replace him... if we get lucky.

If there is some sort of budget problem, then trade D Hall.

Hopefully they are planning to re-sign him and this whole post is just a pointless rant.

All we need to do is convince him to take less money than he wants. He has, on multiple occasions, said he wants to get paid. He's also turning 30 this coming year, so he's not that young. Believe me, I want him to stay, I just hope he realizes he's not going to be paid the amount he thinks he deserves.

FWIW, he tied his career high in INTs this season. Hopefully next year he sets personal bests.

[Rpredskins]

damn he is really 30? could have sworn he was younger

[Dro89]

nah bro hes 30 he was like 24 when he came out.

[tdigle]

Let him walk and draft Amukamara instead.

[Dirt]

hah, you can't just say all that stuff praising Carlos, then say "cut Hall" like it's no big deal.

[the krabber]

Id like to keep Carlos if he doesnt ask for the world. he is a solid corner who can shut down large receivers with his physical play, though he cant catch a cold to save his life. his lack of playmaking ability is driving his price down, but he is still a good player. if he can get big money elsewhere, let him walk but id like to see him stick around so we can focus on the lines in the draft.

[HigSkin]

hes 30... an wanting the 7-8 mill dollar range id much rather offer few mill more to a player like Johnathan Joseph or even less money to a player like Richard Marshall..

Yep, I'm in agreement with this one...Johnathan Joseph (26) is a much younger/cheaper option who can actually catch the ball.

[elkabong82]

I'd like him to stay, but agree his lack of playmaking and his age should drive the cost down. I'm confident Bruce Allen won't break the bank for him and ultimately it will be up to Rogers whether or not he tests the FA waters.

[Burgold]

I could go either way on Rogers, but I really didn't like when he said he was not playing because he was afraid it would hurt his marketability on his future contract. I also didn't see him elevate this D at all this year. The pass defense was incredibly porous. We were the worst defense in the league with him. He's got above average corner skills, but plays hundred miles off his receiver (that may be coaching, but it's hard to believe that every coach forces him to do that). I'm sick of him playing ten yards off his man when it's 3rd and 4. I'm tired of him dropping interceptions I could catch while wearing a straight jacket.

If he wants to be paid like a Martin Mayhew or a Barry Wilburn, I could see keeping him. If he wants to be paid like a Darrell Green or a top corner (which is what he's always saying) then he's getting old, he has injury concerns, really poor hands and his negatives are beginning to outweigh his positives. We played better defense with Buchanon and Barnes then we did with Rogers out there, after all.

[jfr3ek]

let him walk...Kevin Barnes and Macho Harris are potential starters that are much younger.

[ConnSKINS26]

let him walk...Kevin Barnes and Macho Harris are potential starters that are much younger.

I like Barnes, and could do without Rogers, but we don't know that this statement is true about Harris.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I like Barnes, and could do without Rogers, but we don't know that this statement is true about Harris.

The safe bet is that it absolutely isn't true about Harris.

[tex]

Would offer him the right money where a larger offer overpays and anything less is an insult. Beyond that what else can you do?

Would like to see him remain a Skin.

[ConnSKINS26]

The safe bet is that it absolutely isn't true about Harris.

Probably. I still don't mind having him as depth and as a special teams player. Especially if Barnes moving into the starting lineup is in the cards.

[#98QBKiller]

Let him walk and draft Amukamara instead.


That would be one of the dumbest things we could possibly do. Set ourselves back even further than we already are by letting someone walk in a position that we're already good at and using our #10 pick to refill that position? No thanks.

We drafted DBs early in the 1st round for years under Vinny Cerrato and it has produced pretty much no significant results for this team.

[skinfan2k]

Start Barnes next year as the opposing CB and see what you got. You do whatever necessary to build that front 7.

[Dukes and Skins]

Yep, I'm in agreement with this one...Johnathan Joseph (26) is a much younger/cheaper option who can actually catch the ball.

Joseph is one of the top CB's in the NFL he's not going to come cheap he very well could demand 7 to 10 million a year

[Hitman#21]

It matters what he is asking for. If he is reasonable i would like for him to stay also.

[ConnSKINS26]

Start Barnes next year as the opposing CB and see what you got. You do whatever necessary to build that front 7.

Definitely agree here. Let Rogers go if he doesn't accept a reasonable offer, and see if Barnes can step up. Invest draft picks in the front 7, NOT replacing Rogers...A great front 7 that can pressure the QB relentlessly will have our DB's looking like all-pro's. Especially if they can catch.

[Dro89]

Joseph is one of the top CB's in the NFL he's not going to come cheap he very well could demand 7 to 10 million a year

yea i don't think i said Joseph was cheaper did i? if i did i correct myself because he will cost us a few more mill than Rodgers.

[paloosa]

I think he wants to stay now that he sees that there is some promise here because last year was a bad year all around with Zorn. I think we offer him a good contract that is a fair offer and if he doesn't like it then let him walk. If he truly wants to be back then he will take something less but don't offer him something that undervalues his talents. That would be a slap in the face to anyone.

[Skadden]

Definitely agree here. Let Rogers go if he doesn't accept a reasonable offer, and see if Barnes can step up. Invest draft picks in the front 7, NOT replacing Rogers...A great front 7 that can pressure the QB relentlessly will have our DB's looking like all-pro's. Especially if they can catch.

There's a reason that Barnes is playing safety right now instead of corner. He's a physical guy, but doesn't have any great cover skills. Relying on him to replace Rogers would be horrid. Also, drafting Amakura when we've got needs at other more important positions would be really dumb.

[ConnSKINS26]

There's a reason that Barnes is playing safety right now instead of corner. He's a physical guy, but doesn't have any great cover skills. Relying on him to replace Rogers would be horrid. Also, drafting Amakura when we've got needs at other more important positions would be really dumb.

Yes, there is a reason...our top two Free Safeties (Moore and Horton) were out for the rest of the season, and our top SS was as well (Landry), meaning that our 3rd FS/SS (Doughty) had to start at SS...opening up a hole for Barnes to fill out of necessity.

You notice that Barnes wasn't working at FS until all of these injuries. He was getting some time on the field at the nickle position when Rogers was out and Buchanon was shifted up into the starting lineup...then, when Barnes had to move to safety, and Rogers was injured, Westbrook played the nickel.

There's a reason that Rogers still isn't signed, and there's a reason why Tryon was traded early in the season. The coaches seem to really like Barnes, and like him enough to turn to him to play FS at the end of the season, again, out of necessity, than signing a vet to come in and plug that hole.

[Dukes and Skins]

yea i don't think i said Joseph was cheaper did i? if i did i correct myself because he will cost us a few more mill than Rodgers.

No you didnt in my quote I'm referring to HigSkin who was calling him a cheaper option

[mi6]

Time for Carlos "Butter Fingers" Rogers to pack his back and find a new home.

For the amount of money he expects to be paid, we could get better CBs ... like Nnamdi for Oakland. Rogers is getting up there in age, and has not been able to play 16 games consistently ever since he was drafted. How many pro-bowls has Carlos been to? Yeah, precisely! None!!

Besides, we have Kevin Barnes. He is a physical and talented football player.

[SkinsFTW]

Rogers is a good corner but he's never going to be worth top dollar because he drops passes that the average fan could easily catch. I think he's going to be signed by some other team for more than we are willing to pay though.

Just don't sign that guy on the Saints who gave up 3 TD's today. I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't on the market very soon as well.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I like Carlos. With that out of the way he can't catch for ****. He does tackle quite well, and plays physical which are great attributes to have. The problem is he drops SO many game changing INT's and that just isn't something you can overlook easily. If they have a chance to groom and rookie I say go for it. Hell, with the amount of money that Carlos wants, which he isn't exactly worth - we could have kept Tryon - 10 Tryons at that.

[tdigle]

That would be one of the dumbest things we could possibly do. Set ourselves back even further than we already are by letting someone walk in a position that we're already good at and using our #10 pick to refill that position? No thanks.

We drafted DBs early in the 1st round for years under Vinny Cerrato and it has produced pretty much no significant results for this team.

So you'd rather overpay a man half into his prime instead of drafting someone eight years younger than him and whose contract will be a pittance in comparison? Give me a break, man.

And what do you mean no significant results? Cerrato was terrible at free agency and his strategy of trading over-the-hill stars for draft picks was laughable, but he was a genius at evaluating defensive draftees, especially in the secondary. Without Cerrato, our defense wouldn't have been a perennial powerhouse this past decade.


There's a reason that Barnes is playing safety right now instead of corner. He's a physical guy, but doesn't have any great cover skills. Relying on him to replace Rogers would be horrid. Also, drafting Amakura when we've got needs at other more important positions would be really dumb.

What defensive needs are we going to be able fill through the draft exactly? The three players that would do wonders for our defense are going before we pick (i.e., Da'Quan Bowers, Nick Fairley, and Robert Quinn), so we can't count on any great options for our base being available (for the love of sanity I hope you don't suggest that we draft JJ Watt). Also, with us more than likely targeting a number one receiver through FA, I don't see the point of gambling on the likes of a Julio Jones since AJ Green will be gone by the time we pick.

Amukamara's a smart choice. We'll have one of the best, most youthful secondaries in the league that won't need to be tended to for at least the next six or seven years.

[GoDeep81]

hes 30... an wanting the 7-8 mill dollar range id much rather offer few mill more to a player like Johnathan Joseph or even less money to a player like Richard Marshall..

Something like this! Los can cover, no doubt, but I just hate the fact that he cant catch.. One day it'd be so nice to have a secondary who can cover, catch "and" lateral, ala a team such as the Ravens..

[frankez99]

......hmmmmm....for some reason I'm not distressed at the thought of Carlos departing; if so, hopefully he can CATCH on somewhere else (actually, no...I hope he flops if he leaves). I forgot who said it, but Carlos has dropped close to 15 "should have been caught" interceptions and cost himself big time in the $$$$$ category.

I love how people say, "So what, he's a CB, he's not supposed to be able to catch"....whatever. His lack of catching has changed the course of many-a-Redskin game.

[Chump Bailey]

Yep, I'm in agreement with this one...Johnathan Joseph (26) is a much younger/cheaper option who can actually catch the ball.

I don't know how much cheaper JJ will be. He's considered amongst the best CB's in the game. He's younger, but I doubt cheaper.

[Burgold]

Rogers is always one of those Redskins who always seems to have a very inflated self opinion. I remember him going out there and saying he should be paid like a top three corner and always proclaiming he's a pro bowler. I remember how "insulted" he was that the Redskins didn't show him sufficient respect by offering him a tender. It probably never occurred to him that no other team was willing to negotiate or try to steal him away at the cost of a pick.

[vicnielsen]

Not sure if anyone here reads any of KC Joyner's stuff on espn. He breaks down every down just about every play of every game and rates corners based on yards per attempt when a ball is thrown in their direction. This season he has said several times that Carlos is the worst in the league in this area. The below quote is from mid season.

James (Philadelphia)


What are your thoughts on Jeremy Maclin? Do his numbers shoot up now that Vick is back and DeSean is getting covered?

KC Joyner (4:27 PM)


They should move up this week. He's due to face Carlos Rogers and Rogers is having a very poor season (been hovering around the double-digit YPA mark much of the year). Maclin tends to do poorly against top competition and dominate every other level of matchup, so look for a really good game from him this week.

[#1skinsfanever]

Los is great in run support a good cover corner so if he's not breaking the bank let's keep him but that's he's decision to make if he want's to be here.

---------- Post added January-9th-2011 at 08:55 AM ----------


......hmmmmm....for some reason I'm not distressed at the thought of Carlos departing; if so, hopefully he can CATCH on somewhere else (actually, no...I hope he flops if he leaves). I forgot who said it, but Carlos has dropped close to 15 "should have been caught" interceptions and cost himself big time in the $$$$$ category.

I love how people say, "So what, he's a CB, he's not supposed to be able to catch"....whatever. His lack of catching has changed the course of many-a-Redskin game.

Very Very true i will never forget that Seattle playoff game he could've won a few games for us though them games are not his fault we lost.

[fish]

BOTTOMLINE - it it's not broken, don't fix it.

On a talent depleted team - which we are for those of you not paying attention - we CANNOT jettison acceptable talent.

We have far too many holes on this team and on this defense to be trying to do marginal adjustments which is what swapping CR with JJ would be doing. Obviously that is just an opinion and those that favor JJ or really anybody else could easily be right. But the coaching staff and his teammates know what we have w/ CR.

Unfortunately, bu NOT signing him to a long term deal already, he pretty mush is just like any other FA. We have already 'lost' him and will have to re-sign him to get him back.

For those that say draft a new starting CB - guess what; we have EXACTLY 2 draft picks we can count on being starters and by definition, those guys will be ROOKIES!

I would hope we use those 2 picks for OL and/or DL ............ unless Shanny see's a QB that he feels he can develop into a solid starter (at least).

THE ONLY REASON I would support **** canning CR is if the coaching staff has determined him a locker room problem guy. If so - MOVE OUT!

[Drockvb]

Rogers is a good cover guy and this organization should do everything in it's power to get him signed.

The team needs to submit a contract laced with bonuses for on field production.

[vicnielsen]

[QUOTE=fish;8096567]BOTTOMLINE - it it's not broken, don't fix it.

On a talent depleted team - which we are for those of you not paying attention - we CANNOT jettison acceptable talent.
QUOTE]


The problem is that our secondary is very broke. In case you missed it, we had the 2nd worse pass defense in the nfl. You do not pay big dollars to a 30 year old, below average player. You can get similar production from barnes or some other young player.

[Spear]

Don't dropped interceptions go into the stat books as passes defensed? No wonder he is so highly ranked.

[Chump Bailey]

This season he has said several times that Carlos is the worst in the league in this area. The below quote is from mid season.

Rogers needs to go IMO. People talk about Chris Cooley being overrated, which I find personally amusing, but Rogers is most definitely overrated. He has never played to the level of his draft selection at all IMO.

[Probos]

hes 30... an wanting the 7-8 mill dollar range id much rather offer few mill more to a player like Johnathan Joseph or even less money to a player like Richard Marshall..

This^^^

By NFL standards the guy is not young. He's a good cover corner, but not worth the 9th pick in the 1st round we spent on him. He's had his time here and IMO I would not resign him. This team needs new, young blood and at the same time needs to ship out as much of the old guard attitude as possible.

Also, every time I watch the guy drop an interception it just makes me think that the Skins could have drafted Demarcus Ware,......and that thought alone makes me physically ill.

[speedmike]

He's obviously done well enough that if we can get a hometown discount, we've got to resign him. I'm surprised I haven't seen more threads in the stadium regarding the other pending FA's we have. I know Rocky's been discussed as not coming back, but what about Reed Doughty? Kedric Golston? Jammal Brown? Heyer? Montgomery? Moss? Hell, even Grossman is set to hit the open market. I'll be very interested to see how the offseason plays out -- because not only do we need to do a lot to get better. We need to do a lot just to maintain status quo.

[fish]

[QUOTE=fish;8096567]BOTTOMLINE - it it's not broken, don't fix it.

On a talent depleted team - which we are for those of you not paying attention - we CANNOT jettison acceptable talent.
QUOTE]

Nope, I didn't miss it brutha. What I missed was a quality defensive line, specifically NT, and a pass rushing LB corps - things we can get with our draft picks or the money everybody seems to be so worried about.

Why is the money in ANY conversation? If there is ANYTHING the Skins have been skillful with is managing the money. All we have heard for years is how we are gonna be strapped for cash under the cap - never happened. Now we're reading stories that we have pretty much 1 player with guaranteed money next year. Son of George has done a good job at freeing up our money. While you might be right (not too much 'might' about it - you obviously are) about paying that money for a 30 yr old CB, I don't see spending an all important draft pick on a position we have a serviceable player already. That's all I'm sayin. But since he is a FA already, if we can get an upgrade in talent for cheaper - unlikely - I concur with you; we should do it.


The problem is that our secondary is very broke. In case you missed it, we had the 2nd worse pass defense in the nfl. You do not pay big dollars to a 30 year old, below average player. You can get similar production from barnes or some other young player.

[BKSkinsFan]

Los is a decent corner, but in all honesty his stone hands has cost us games. When you get the opportunity to get a turnover, RIGHT in your hands and drop it, that's huge. We can't simply keep writing it off as, well at least the WR didn't catch it.

The first Seattle playoff game, he dropped a CERTAIN pick 6. That mistake by Hasselbeck should have cost them the game, instead they breathe a sigh of relief that we have Los on the field.

Haslett's defense thrives on turnovers, which is just not part of Los' game. It's become a joke to watch him drop INT after INT that could and would completely change the outcome of a game. Not to mention he seems to be thinking he should be getting a top dollar contract. I'll reserve that for someone that deserves it. Jonathon Joseph, Antonio Cromartie, Eric Wright, Ike Taylor are free agents that I'd take any day over Los.

[Houston2Taylor2Landry]

I wouldn't be mad if we let him walk or if we signed him.

He is a good cover corner and a good tackler.

He also can't catch and if for the past 6 years he would have caught all of the INTS he has dropped maybe we are not a team that has had no success for 3 years.

[#98QBKiller]

So you'd rather overpay a man half into his prime instead of drafting someone eight years younger than him and whose contract will be a pittance in comparison? Give me a break, man.

Where did I say I wanted us to overpay him? You make an effort to keep him and if he wants too much, you let him walk and replace him via free agency or promote someone on the current roster. Corner isn't a position that we have the luxury of spending a top ten pick on anymore. We have a Pro-Bowler on one side and a very good cover guy on the other. We have more pressing needs on this team like in the trenches where the game is won and at the QB position.


And what do you mean no significant results? Cerrato was terrible at free agency and his strategy of trading over-the-hill stars for draft picks was laughable, but he was a genius at evaluating defensive draftees, especially in the secondary. Without Cerrato, our defense wouldn't have been a perennial powerhouse this past decade.

:ols:

A "perennial powerhouse?"

I guess if you count finishing in the top ten in yardage allowed per game then you could make a statement like that. But real powerhouse defenses don't finish at the bottom of the barrel in sacks and turnovers every year. Real powerhouse defenses don't fold like lawn chairs in the 4th quarter of games every year.

Picking DBs in the top ten for years did nothing to make this team a regular contender. In fact, it set us back because we refused to draft linemen on either side of the ball in the first round. And you think it's a good idea to spend our #10 overall on a CB this year?

Stop logging into ES Vinny.

[skinfan2k]

There's a reason that Barnes is playing safety right now instead of corner. He's a physical guy, but doesn't have any great cover skills. Relying on him to replace Rogers would be horrid. Also, drafting Amakura when we've got needs at other more important positions would be really dumb.

my dear, he was a corner at UMD when i watched him. He can play corner and play it well.

[bedlamVR]

At Colligate level . Tyron outplayed him most of his time here .

One thing I don't understand about our fan base is how on the one hand they say we MUST build through the draft and then in the next they say we should trade Cooley (and probably soon Landry, Williams, Davis, and Orakopo) and just let guys like Rogers walk .

Rogers is a very good complement to Hall and has looked bad at times and good at times . He may not have played up to the No9 billing but was the best of the top 3 in his class . Also throw in the injuries and overhaul of the D then I think IF he wants to come back, and the team seems interested, then why not ? 7-8 million a year may sound a lot but until the CBA is sorted and people like Joeseph and Nnmaknanmsnsi sign somewhere that might be damn cheap . Lets put it this way Buchanan was getting 4.6 mil this year and he is far from a top tier guy .

[OVCChairman]

I'm in the group that Rogers is a great cover corner who cant catch. I'd rather have that then a horrible cover corner who can catch. Rogers might drop picks but he's still in position to make the play. When he does drop the ball, he's still preventing the receiver from catching the ball.

That being said i do have to be somewhat critical of him that if you make this much money you should be able to catch the football, but i'd still take rogers over someone who gets burnt.


Also i saw a reference to Justin Tryon.... that kid starts for the colts now... and last time i checked they were in the playoffs until last night.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

Turnovers win games and the turnover ratio is key to a defense, he missed too many opportunities for them. If he can stay on the cheap, keep him, but I get the impression he wants big cash. If that is the case, pass and spend the money elsewhere

[Lavarleap56]

Carlos is gone and the skins will be better for it.

[terrifNick21]

Carlos is gone and the skins will be better for it.

How? :)

[Taylorfan2179]

7 or 8 million? thats a bit much. I love carlos, he may be unable to catch, but he is still a great cover guy. We also drafted him, and I like keeping what we draft.

[Skadden]

Yes, there is a reason...our top two Free Safeties (Moore and Horton) were out for the rest of the season, and our top SS was as well (Landry), meaning that our 3rd FS/SS (Doughty) had to start at SS...opening up a hole for Barnes to fill out of necessity.

You notice that Barnes wasn't working at FS until all of these injuries. He was getting some time on the field at the nickle position when Rogers was out and Buchanon was shifted up into the starting lineup...then, when Barnes had to move to safety, and Rogers was injured, Westbrook played the nickel.

There's a reason that Rogers still isn't signed, and there's a reason why Tryon was traded early in the season. The coaches seem to really like Barnes, and like him enough to turn to him to play FS at the end of the season, again, out of necessity, than signing a vet to come in and plug that hole.

I think you answered the question with your own post. Barnes had to start out of necessity at safety. I think that might be a good position for him given his size and quasi-cover skills. But, unless he's improved, there's a reason why he couldn't even beat out Philip Buchanon on the field.

---------- Post added January-9th-2011 at 12:37 PM ----------


my dear, he was a corner at UMD when i watched him. He can play corner and play it well.

I watched him there too. Key words "at UMD." I have relative that watched Heath Shuler play at Tennessee. They raved about him. Key words there: "at Tennessee." I'd love to see an ex-Terp make it big on the Redskins. But he's got a ways to go if he's playing CB. At safety, he might've found a spot.

[Laxpunk2006]

Some of these posts baffle me. I've probably been Carlos' biggest supporter but we need to be realistic here. The 10 yard cushions (which there was much less of) are coaching. Does anyone honestly believe he is doing this on his own and coaches don't say anything about it? It's part of the whole "bend don't break" philosophy that hopefully we see a lot less of in the future. Players do not get to decide where they line up, this should be common sense. He drops a lot of INT's but those are picks that he is getting into position for. He has the best instincts of anyone on our defense and breaks on the ball as good as anyone. As everyone knows its just the catching part that hurts him. If he had Hall's hands he would be mentioned with Revis and Asomugha. Since 2006 Carlos Rogers is #6 in pass break ups in the NFL. In those 5 seasons he missed 14 games due to injury. This raises a slight injury concern (though 9 of those were in one season) but makes the PD number that much more impressive. He is one of the bestcover corners in the league. He can tackle in run support as well.

The determining factor here is Carlos. From what I understand he wants to get paid as an elite, complete corner. While he is elite in some departments (coverage) he is poor in others (catching) which happens to be a big part of being in that teir of corners. He has age going against him as well. Sitting out due to fear of hurting market value would concern me but he was a part of the FA class that got completely screwed over. If I was told my whole career I would be able to negotiate a new contract at a certain date and then that date came and I couldn't, I would be upset too. I damn sure wouldn't be putting myself at risk by playing hurt when my chance at a payday finally came. Not the best team attitude but I can fully understand it. It's not like we were a playoff team anyway.

In summary we should do what we can to retain Carlos but it's up to him. We do not have his replacement on the roster. Buchanon is best suited covering teams #3's and Barnes is a total unknown. Macho Harris has no value at CB because of a lack of speed. We absolutely cannot afford to spend draft picks replacing players that are already in their prime. If Rogers walks his replacement is going to have to come from FA.

[tdigle]

Where did I say I wanted us to overpay him? You make an effort to keep him and if he wants too much, you let him walk and replace him via free agency or promote someone on the current roster. Corner isn't a position that we have the luxury of spending a top ten pick on anymore. We have a Pro-Bowler on one side and a very good cover guy on the other. We have more pressing needs on this team like in the trenches where the game is won and at the QB position.

You don't have to imply or explicitly state something to have it be a forgone conclusion. Snyder always overpays underperforming players. Why would Rogers be any different?


:ols:

A "perennial powerhouse?"

I guess if you count finishing in the top ten in yardage allowed per game then you could make a statement like that. But real powerhouse defenses don't finish at the bottom of the barrel in sacks and turnovers every year. Real powerhouse defenses don't fold like lawn chairs in the 4th quarter of games every year.

After doing some research (something you're obviously averse to), I decided to stop taking you seriously when you made this completely false statement. Let's look at the yardage allowed rankings for each year of Cerrato's second tenure (my source: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/):

2002 - 5th fewest yards allowed
2003 - 25th fewest yards allowed
2004 - 3rd fewest yards allowed
2005 - 9th fewest yards allowed
2006 - 31st fewest yards allowed
2007 - 8th fewest yards allowed
2008 - 4th fewest yards allowed
2009 - 10th fewest yards allowed

They finished in the top ten for five out of seven years in a statistical category that you deemed them to be bottom-feeders in. Did you only watch the 2003 and 2006 seasons?

Maybe I'll entertain your posts more when you show that you're able to properly back up your claims instead of just throwing lies out there in the hopes that someone won't fact-check them.



Picking DBs in the top ten for years did nothing to make this team a regular contender. In fact, it set us back because we refused to draft linemen on either side of the ball in the first round. And you think it's a good idea to spend our #10 overall on a CB this year?

Yes, I do. Also, it wasn't the DBs that set us back; it was the fact that we kept on trading away valuable draft picks that set us back so much.


Stop logging into ES Vinny.

I'd rather be Cerrato than someone like yourself, a poster allergic to truth.

[HitStickTaylor21]

Let Rogers walk, let Barnes come into his own. Barnes has shown some promise, whether it will be an corner or safety. I still wish we didn't off load Tryon, he would have been great to round out the corps. I still don't know what the coaching staff sees in Byron Westbrook.

[skinfan2k]

Let Rogers walk, let Barnes come into his own. Barnes has shown some promise, whether it will be an corner or safety. I still wish we didn't off load Tryon, he would have been great to round out the corps. I still don't know what the coaching staff sees in Byron Westbrook.

Westbrook plays fantastic special teams.

[ncr2h]

Offer him 3rd corner money, and if he signs make it clear that he has to compete to get that 2nd corner spot. Dude is 30 and not that good - he's not worth taking up a starting spot unless he takes his game to the next level. Otherwise, we have a young guy behind him that could use that opportunity, and the drop-off in talent from Rogers to Buchannon is either non-existent or small enough that we won't miss him.

This isn't Shawn Springs at age 30...it's Carlos Rogers. The guy who we're still all waiting on to break out. He's had one outstanding season and a bunch of decent seasons. He's not worth breaking the bank for. And judging by the past several offseasons, someone will certainly break the bank for him.

That being said, we don't need to use the #10 pick on his replacement. Find a guy that's going to be good, no matter where he is in the draft. Use the top 2 picks on the best player available.

---------- Post added January-9th-2011 at 02:54 PM ----------

Oh, and props to Vinny on a smart move - not extending Rogers after that outstanding 2008 season. Rogers followed it up with 2 sub-par seasons in a row, and we would have been grossly overpaying Rogers if we were giving him D Hall money right now.

[skinfan2k]

Teams find corners anywhere in the draft. a front 7 can make any CB look good. build the front 7 and get a safety to help Landry

[Laxpunk2006]

Haslett's defense thrives on turnovers, which is just not part of Los' game. It's become a joke to watch him drop INT after INT that could and would completely change the outcome of a game. .

Our defense is modeled after Pittsburgh. The highest INT total for a CB this season was 2. The same number as Carlos. In this scheme the safeties and linebackers are the play makers and the CB's are there to lock recievers down. When is the last time you saw a Pittsburgh team have a high INT total from a CB? The fact that Hall is such a game changer (both ways) is just a bonus. Players like Hall are a ton of fun to watch but if I'm a coordinator I'd much rather have a guy just do his job.


Teams find corners anywhere in the draft. a front 7 can make any CB look good. build the front 7 and get a safety to help Landry

I agree on building the front seven but your statement could be said for literally any position.

[#98QBKiller]

You don't have to imply or explicitly state something to have it be a forgone conclusion. Snyder always overpays underperforming players. Why would Rogers be any different?

So you're just making assumptions now? Stop with the straw man arguments. The Rogers situation is different because Bruce Allen is running the financial side of things for this organization and he isn't going to overpay players like we have in the past.


After doing some research (something you're obviously averse to), I decided to stop taking you seriously when you made this completely false statement. Let's look at the yardage allowed rankings for each year of Cerrato's second tenure (my source: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/):

2002 - 5th fewest yards allowed
2003 - 25th fewest yards allowed
2004 - 3rd fewest yards allowed
2005 - 9th fewest yards allowed
2006 - 31st fewest yards allowed
2007 - 8th fewest yards allowed
2008 - 4th fewest yards allowed
2009 - 10th fewest yards allowed

They finished in the top ten for five out of seven years in a statistical category that you deemed them to be bottom-feeders in. Did you only watch the 2003 and 2006 seasons?

Maybe I'll entertain your posts more when you show that you're able to properly back up your claims instead of just throwing lies out there in the hopes that someone won't fact-check them.

Looks like you're not very good with reading comprehension. Let's look at what I said:


I guess if you count finishing in the top ten in yardage allowed per game then you could make a statement like that. But real powerhouse defenses don't finish at the bottom of the barrel in sacks and turnovers every year. Real powerhouse defenses don't fold like lawn chairs in the 4th quarter of games every year.

^----I clearly posted that we finished top ten in yardage allowed per game but failed in turnovers and sacks, both of which are better indicators of "powerhouse" defenses than yards per game.

Maybe I'll entertain your posts more when you show that you are able to understand basic English.


Yes, I do. Also, it wasn't the DBs that set us back; it was the fact that we kept on trading away valuable draft picks that set us back so much.

I'd rather be Cerrato than someone like yourself, a poster allergic to truth.

What set us back was a combination of trading away picks for players that weren't worth it and building from the outside - in by not drafting young, talented players to build the lines. You're proposing to do exactly what has hurt us for many years by drafting a CB with our #10 pick overall and neglecting other positions that are much bigger problems on this team. Terrible idea. And it's not surprising considering your lack of reading skills.

[BKSkinsFan]

Our defense is modeled after Pittsburgh. The highest INT total for a CB this season was 2. The same number as Carlos. In this scheme the safeties and linebackers are the play makers and the CB's are there to lock recievers down. When is the last time you saw a Pittsburgh team have a high INT total from a CB? The fact that Hall is such a game changer (both ways) is just a bonus. Players like Hall are a ton of fun to watch but if I'm a coordinator I'd much rather have a guy just do his job.

We can say what we want about Haslett's defensive philosophy, but I'm sure no coach preaches to drop sure INTs. We don't have the luxury of having Troy Polamalu to rely on for our INTs. If I'm a coordinator, and my CB is in position to take advantage of a QB's mistake, I want him to have the ability to make that play.

[skinfan2k]

I agree on building the front seven but your statement could be said for literally any position.[/QUOTE]

Oh i agree, but in a 3-4, the front 7 matters much more than a CB

[RandyHolt]

It seems like he lost his job to Buchanan.

I dont think he's that great a cover corner as we are told. All our DC's have largely had him zone his career here. I cant remember the last time he got shutdown duty on a wideout, nor one that he dominated.

He is a physical corner. Having him in press man, I would keep him around. Zone, let him go.

[Truant]

No. He's 3 to 4 years OLDER than Hall. When Rogers loses a step he'll be completely useless. A mid-round pick in any draft can replace the mediocre play we've gotten from Rogers over his career.

Hopefully he'll leave via FA and we can get a comp pick for him. But that'd require him playing well, which is a longshot.

[Laxpunk2006]

It seems like he lost his job to Buchanan.

I dont think he's that great a cover corner as we are told. All our DC's have largely had him zone his career here. I cant remember the last time he got shutdown duty on a wideout, nor one that he dominated.

He is a physical corner. Having him in press man, I would keep him around. Zone, let him go.

I believe it was 2008 that last year we had Shawn Springs. On one series against Dallas Romo went to TO three times in a row. With Rogers in man coverage he shut him down all three plays to force a punt. It was one of the better games of his career. I agree with your assesment as far as man/zone. If we want to be a zone team relying on turnovers to make up for other defensive shortcomings he isn't the guy. If we want a guy that can jam a reciever and get him frustrated he is one of the better players available. From what I understand Haslett is a big fan. Rocky as well but that is a differen thread.

[tdigle]

So you're just making assumptions now? Stop with the straw man arguments. The Rogers situation is different because Bruce Allen is running the financial side of things for this organization and he isn't going to overpay players like we have in the past.

:ols: This is not a straw man (I have unintentionally committed one straw man in my posts here, but we'll get to that in a bit). I never misinterpreted what you said for the benefit of my own argument. I believe Snyder overplays players, I believe he will continue to do so, and the facts back me up. Furthermore, I never claimed that this belief was an implication of your argument that the Redskins should keep Rogers/not draft Amukamara; I merely stated that Snyder overpaying someone was a "forgone conclusion (i.e., an inevitability)." I see that you attack my understanding of the English language later in the argument (I'll admit to my mistake in a bit), but I think you should take a look in the mirror yourself.

Furthemore, Donovan McNabb's contract extension begs to differ with you in regards to Allen overpaying players; I see a lot more weasel clauses (which is a step in the right direction), but that's about it. The jury's still out on whether or not players will be overpaid in the offseason; I'm confident that this will still be the case.



Looks like you're not very good with reading comprehension. Let's look at what I said:

Yep, I thought you said something that wasn't there. I'll own up to that mistake. Obviously, I thought you said the opposite of what you were saying, and I was wrong.




^----I clearly posted that we finished top ten in yardage allowed per game but failed in turnovers and sacks, both of which are better indicators of "powerhouse" defenses than yards per game.

This is not true. Over Cerrato's second-term, the team averaged a rank in turnovers of 24th/25th in the league (24.25), but they averaged a rank in interceptions of 19th in the league. This is nowhere near the bottom of the barrel (unless you consider all of the teams in the bottom 25% as bottom of the barrel, but this contention wouldn't hold for the team's interception statistic).


Maybe I'll entertain your posts more when you show that you are able to understand basic English.

I see you plan on riding that one for a while. I'll give it to you since it's the only thing you'll ever be able to get off of me.


What set us back was a combination of trading away picks for players that weren't worth it and building from the outside - in by not drafting young, talented players to build the lines. You're proposing to do exactly what has hurt us for many years by drafting a CB with our #10 pick overall and neglecting other positions that are much bigger problems on this team. Terrible idea.

It's not a terrible idea at all. You take the best player that's still available in the draft, and it's not like a CB would be totally superfluous to our needs. There are no offensive linemen worthy of a #10 pick this year and any lineman that would greatly improve our defense will definitely go before it's our turn.


And it's not surprising considering your lack of reading skills.

I occasionally misread things from time to time. I hope to Christ I don't make a habit of it like you make a habit of throwing out arguments with false, lazily unverified premises and logical terms that you don't even know the definition of.

[Skinzfever2010]

Please Keep Stone Hands

We can't afford to pick another player for the secondary in this years draft


"And with the 10th pick in the 2011 NFL Draft, The Washington Redskins select SAFETY/CORNER............" smh....

[Dallsux]

I could go either way on Rogers, but I really didn't like when he said he was not playing because he was afraid it would hurt his marketability on his future contract. I also didn't see him elevate this D at all this year. The pass defense was incredibly porous. We were the worst defense in the league with him. He's got above average corner skills, but plays hundred miles off his receiver (that may be coaching, but it's hard to believe that every coach forces him to do that). I'm sick of him playing ten yards off his man when it's 3rd and 4. I'm tired of him dropping interceptions I could catch while wearing a straight jacket.

If he wants to be paid like a Martin Mayhew or a Barry Wilburn, I could see keeping him. If he wants to be paid like a Darrell Green or a top corner (which is what he's always saying) then he's getting old, he has injury concerns, really poor hands and his negatives are beginning to outweigh his positives. We played better defense with Buchanon and Barnes then we did with Rogers out there, after all.

I agree completely. Nothing more to say, IMHO.

[#98QBKiller]

This is not a straw man (I have unintentionally committed one straw man in my posts here, but we'll get to that in a bit). I never misinterpreted what you said for the benefit of my own argument.

That's exactly what you did right here:


So you'd rather overpay a man half into his prime instead of drafting someone eight years younger than him and whose contract will be a pittance in comparison? Give me a break, man.



Furthemore, Donovan McNabb's contract extension begs to differ with you in regards to Allen overpaying players; I see a lot more weasel clauses (which is a step in the right direction), but that's about it. The jury's still out on whether or not players will be overpaid in the offseason; I'm confident that this will still be the case.


McNabb's contract as a whole, looks like the same old, same old when it comes to the FO's financial bumblings. But upon further review, like you mentioned, Allen added clauses which help save the team a lot of money if McNabb doesn't work out. If he has to be cut or traded, (which looks to be the case) we only owe McNabb $3.75 million for 2010.

The rest breaks down like this:


• 2010: $3.5 million signing bonus/$250,000 if active eight games

• 2011: $10 million option bonus/$2.5 million salary/$750,000 if active 16 games/$250,000 workout/$2 million possible playoff incentives

• 2012: $12.75 million salary/$750,000 if active 16 games/$250,000 workout/$2 million possible playoff incentives

• 2013: $13 million salary/$1.5 million if active 16 games/$250,000 workout/$2 million possible playoff incentives

• 2014: $13.75 million salary/$3 million if active 16 games/$250,000 workout/$2 million possible playoff incentives

• 2015: $13.55 million salary/$2.25 million if active 16 games/$250,000 workout/$2 million possible playoff incentives

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5812371


Yep, I thought you said something that wasn't there. I'll own up to that mistake. Obviously, I thought you said the opposite of what you were saying, and I was wrong.

Thank you for acknowledging that.


This is not true. Over Cerrato's second-term, the team averaged a rank in turnovers of 24th/25th in the league (24.25), but they averaged a rank in interceptions of 19th in the league. This is nowhere near the bottom of the barrel (unless you consider all of the teams in the bottom 25% as bottom of the barrel, but this contention wouldn't hold for the team's interception statistic).

A rank of 24th/25th is in the bottom 1/4 of the NFL. A rank of 19th is in the bottom half of the NFL. While the first stat does put us in the bottom of the barrel, the second one doesn't necessarily, but it does not put us in a favorable position either. And both rankings are far from a team that would be considered a "perennial powerhouse."



It's not a terrible idea at all. You take the best player that's still available in the draft, and it's not like a CB would be totally superfluous to our needs. There are no offensive linemen worthy of a #10 pick this year and any lineman that would greatly improve our defense will definitely go before it's our turn.


It is a terrible idea unless you're planning on setting the defense back yet another year. Our defense has already been set back by changing to a scheme that we were poorly equipped for personnel-wise. Right now our secondary is the deepest group on our defense and maybe even on the entire team. Selecting a DB with the #10 overall would be a mistake for a team with so many needs elsewhere. If we're on the clock and there is absolutely no other position of need available that isn't a reach (which isn't likely considering our needs), then we trade back and use the extra pick(s) to build the lines.

[fish]

[QUOTE=fish;8096567]BOTTOMLINE - it it's not broken, don't fix it.

On a talent depleted team - which we are for those of you not paying attention - we CANNOT jettison acceptable talent.
QUOTE]


The problem is that our secondary is very broke. In case you missed it, we had the 2nd worse pass defense in the nfl. You do not pay big dollars to a 30 year old, below average player. You can get similar production from barnes or some other young player.

What I missed mah brutha, is a defensive line that could apply ANY pressure whatsoever and a pass rushing LB corps. Poor pass defense isn't necessarily bad backfield play. But sometimes it is. One last year's team, I would have stuck responsibility for that on safety play at LEAST as much as CB play.

I agree with you that 30 mill for a 30 year old isn't the preferred scenario, but we are in such bad straits in terms of draft picks available and talent on the roster, we do not have the luxury of dumping guys for marginal upgrades is all I'm saying. But since he is already a FA, we now need to get the best CB available. The one advantage we have w/ CR is that we know exactly what we are going to get from him as opposed to what we might THINK we're gonna get from a draftee or a FA.