INN: Islamists Massacre Two Coptic Families in Egypt

[btfoom]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142147

News of an Islamist massacre of two Christian Coptic families has emerged from Upper Egypt with the return of Internet connections to the country, after a one-week Internet blackout imposed by the troubled regime. The massacre, not the first in Egypt in recent weeks (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135445), took place on Sunday afternoon (January 30) at the village of Sharona near Maghagha, in Minya province, and is being reported by AINA, the Assyrian International News Agency.

According to the report, the Islamist murderers, aided by Muslim neighbors of the Copts, stormed the homes of the families, gaining access to the houses' roofs from the roofs of the families' Muslim neighbors. They killed eleven, including children, and seriously injured four more people.

Anba Agathon, Bishop of Maghagha, told Coptic activist Dr. Mona Roman in a televised interview on Al-Karma TV that the killers are neighbors of the Copts, who "seized the opportunity of the mayhem prevailing in Egypt and the absence of police protection to slaughter the Copts." <more at link>


Maybe folks here at the tailgate need to stop reading so much of that left-wing blog freepress and see what is really going on over in Egypt/Middle East.

[thebluefood]

And just when I was starting to have faith in humanity...

They're with Christ now.

[Larry]

Maybe folks here at the tailgate need to stop reading so much of that left-wing blog freepress and see what is really going on over in Egypt/Middle East.

Yep. We should get all our news from Israel National News.

And then when we do, we should take the actions of some people in a town 300 miles south of Cairo, some murderers who are taking advantage of the chaos, and announce that now we "see what is really going on over in Egypt/Middle East".

[PeterMP]

The massacre, not the first in Egypt in recent weeks (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135445), took place on Sunday afternoon (January 30) at the village of Sharona near Maghagha, in Minya province, and is being reported by AINA, the Assyrian International News Agency.
This link is from 1-10-10. That's an odd definition of "recent weeks".

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Well someone feels stupid.

[twa]

This link is from 1-10-10. That's an odd definition of "recent weeks".

This story?
http://www.aina.org/news/20110202205758.htm

the other link references the Christmas eve attack and subsequent ones...you know 4-5 weeks ago

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

This link is from 1-10-10. That's an odd definition of "recent weeks".

:ols: nice.

[twa]

are the laughing crowd reading the link?....obviously not.

[No Excuses]

are the laughing crowd reading the link?....obviously not.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135445

This one?

It's dated for 1-10-10, more than a year from today and is referenced in the main article as happening in "recent weeks".
...

[twa]

Funny that it features the attack on Christmas eve and subsequent ones....you worried over a time stamp or real events listed over the last 6 weeks?

I agree it is a oddity(perhaps a yr change glitch),but it is clearly describing recent weeks events....unless you believe they predict the future:pfft:

[visionary]

Reading the article, it seems old. Anyway, these guys would probably be some of Mubarak's most ardent supporters going by their xenophobia and leap to violence and all. If anything it's a further condemnation of what Egypt has become under Mubarak.

[No Excuses]

Funny that it features the attack on Christmas eve and subsequent ones....you worried over a time stamp or real events listed over the last 6 weeks?

I agree it is a oddity(perhaps a yr change glitch),but it is clearly describing recent weeks events....unless you believe they predict the future:pfft:

The "recent weeks" article is no time stamp glitch.

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-anchorage/muslims-murder-six-christians-egyptian-religious-warfare

http://www.zeenews.com/news594608.html

It was poor journalism citing an event that happened over a year ago.

[twa]

The "recent weeks" article is no time stamp glitch.

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-anchorage/muslims-murder-six-christians-egyptian-religious-warfare

http://www.zeenews.com/news594608.html

It was poor journalism citing an event that happened over a year ago.

Dejavu?...or are they killing so many a regular occurence?

http://www.thecypresstimes.com/article/Christian_News/Christian_News_International/MAN_SENTENCED_TO_DEATH_OVER_COPTIC_CHRISTIAN_KILLI NGS_IN_EGYPT/38948
Published 01/17/2011 - 8:59 a.m. CST

CAIRO, EGYPT - (ANS)- Egyptian authorities have sentenced a man to death for killing six Coptic Christians and a Muslim policeman earlier this month.

..


The BBC explained that Egypt's Copts have often complained of harassment and discrimination, and argue that attacks on them go unpunished or result in light sentences.

Twenty-three people were killed and 70 injured as worshippers were leaving midnight Mass at al-Qiddissin church to bring in the New Year.

added

Obviously it is a regular occurrence

Seems they shoot Copts like we shoot fireworks

[jnhay]

It was poor journalism citing an event that happened over a year ago.
More like poor editing. Not a big deal if they actually intended to cite a recent event.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Does the date even really matter? Do the acts of a couple of extremists overshadow all the events of the past week like the OP is saying? The Muslims forming human shields for Coptic Churches means less than this? Coptics forming human shields for Muslim protesters praying? Both standing hand and hand to protest a dictator?

This is just more whooo scary "Muslim and Arab = bad" fear mongering nonsense. Simple as that.

[Bang]

Dejavu?...or are they killing so many a regular occurence?

http://www.thecypresstimes.com/article/Christian_News/Christian_News_International/MAN_SENTENCED_TO_DEATH_OVER_COPTIC_CHRISTIAN_KILLI NGS_IN_EGYPT/38948
Published 01/17/2011 - 8:59 a.m. CST

CAIRO, EGYPT - (ANS)- Egyptian authorities have sentenced a man to death for killing six Coptic Christians and a Muslim policeman earlier this month.

..


The BBC explained that Egypt's Copts have often complained of harassment and discrimination, and argue that attacks on them go unpunished or result in light sentences.

Twenty-three people were killed and 70 injured as worshippers were leaving midnight Mass at al-Qiddissin church to bring in the New Year.

added

Obviously it is a regular occurrence

Seems they shoot Copts like we shoot fireworks

or like we shoot Christians.

I don't really feel like posting all the links to murders of Christians by Christians in this country.

~Bang

[twa]

More like poor editing. Not a big deal if they actually intended to cite a recent event.

I'm getting confused,can we force everyone to speak English and have the same calendar and celebrations?;)

There have been other shootings and bombing in recent weeks regardless.

I would like confirmation on the two family one in the op

[PeterMP]

This story?
http://www.aina.org/news/20110202205758.htm

the other link references the Christmas eve attack and subsequent ones...you know 4-5 weeks ago
No, I'm talking about this link:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135445

You know the one in my quote where they are talking about "recent weeks".

[mardi gras skin]

or like we shoot Christians.

I don't really feel like posting all the links to murders of Christians by Christians in this country.

~Bang

Its more like a hate crime against a minority. Like rednecks lynching blacks.

[Larry]

Actually, I'm wondering what the point of the thread, is. (Well, other than the claim that anybody who hasn't read this story is "reading so much of that left-wing blog freepress [to] see what is really going on over in Egypt/Middle East.")

(Well, that and the usual "All Muslims are terrorists, but we know we look like idiots when we say it, therefore, we simply hint at it a lot, while being careful to never actually say what our point is".)

Is there a point, here?

[Bang]

Its more like a hate crime against a minority. Like rednecks lynching blacks.

I get that, but to isolate it in regards to trying to cast a feaful shadow over this peaceful revolt is kind of cheap tactics, IMO.
Be scared of the muslims! They're killing famileis.. maybe yours!
That's the message I hear.

~Bang

[Madison Redskin]

In other recent news, Christian extremist militants massacred (http://srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/) thousands of Muslim civilians in a city in Bosnia. Oh, and a bunch of Catholic priests molested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases) a lot of children. Clearly, all Christians are murderous child molesters.

[Jumbo]

Actually, I'm wondering what the point of the thread, is. (Well, other than the claim that anybody who hasn't read this story is "reading so much of that left-wing blog freepress [to] see what is really going on over in Egypt/Middle East.")

(Well, that and the usual "All Muslims are terrorists, but we know we look like idiots when we say it, therefore, we simply hint at it a lot, while being careful to never actually say what our point is".)

Is there a point, here?

Well, perhaps not perfectly, but I would say, mostly , you likely nailed it.

[mardi gras skin]

I get that, but to isolate it in regards to trying to cast a feaful shadow over this peaceful revolt is kind of cheap tactics, IMO.
Be scared of the muslims! They're killing famileis.. maybe yours!

~Bang

I don't know. It this were an isolated incident, you'd have a point. But to pretend the Copts haven't been singled out for some serious hate crimes is weak. Its been going on, its still going on. The peaceful demonstrations are great. The Copts not getting killed would be great too.

Egypt is front and center right now. This is Egypt, too.

[twa]

Well, perhaps not perfectly, but I would say, mostly , you likely nailed it.

Yes it does seem a bad way to start a thread

Though I do find it as relevant as a reporter getting knots on his head...but I admit to a bias

[Destino]

This thread is comedy.
What actually happened: Christian families killed by Muslim extremist.

Reaction to this:
- The leftist press is lying to us about what is really going on over there. No attempt to tell us what the dirty leftist press is hiding from us.
- Christians kill people too!

How about we try something more adult? Something like... That's terrible! Extremist groups are taking advantage of the chaos and Egypt's native Christian population has been put at even greater risk. Hopefully the government that emerges from all this results in secular liberties that are strictly enforced so that this stuff can be put in the past and Egypt can take a large step forward. The Middle East could use a successful modern democracy and it would give hope to other groups, like say in Iran, that there is a better way and it can be achieved by a determined peaceful revolution.

[visionary]

If anything it shows that things haven't been nearly as stable and nice in Egypt as the government wants people to think.
If this thread is somehow supposed to prove that the people behind the protests are doing these things, then it failed.

Seems like with all the "chaos" and "instability" going on in Egypt right now, we would be hearing about a lot more of this stuff happening without the police on the streets to protect the minorities like they were before...right? ;)

And yet the only things similar to this that we've seen since the protests started is by the people supporting and in at least some cases working for the government that is supposed to be keeping back the extremism and acts of violence.

[jpyaks3]

I don't know. It this were an isolated incident, you'd have a point. But to pretend the Copts haven't been singled out for some serious hate crimes is weak. Its been going on, its still going on. The peaceful demonstrations are great. The Copts not getting killed would be great too.

Egypt is front and center right now. This is Egypt, too.

Yes there are intercommunal problems in Egypt, specifically the institutional discrimination that the Coptic community has faced. But I think incidents like the terrorist attack on the Coptic Church New Years day end up showing the true colors of the situation. When something major happens like that attack the average citizen gets involved and the response was overwhelmingly and almost universally in support of the Coptic community. Hopefully some of the institutionalized discrimination can be dismantled but the average person on both sides are certainly not the problem. I think there isn't a whole lot you can really do about extremist elements/people killing other people, what should be focused on is the institutionalized problems which can be actually addressed not random violence.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 12:00 AM ----------


This thread is comedy.
What actually happened: Christian families killed by Muslim extremist.

Reaction to this:
- The leftist press is lying to us about what is really going on over there. No attempt to tell us what the dirty leftist press is hiding from us.
- Christians kill people too!

How about we try something more adult? Something like... That's terrible! Extremist groups are taking advantage of the chaos and Egypt's native Christian population has been put at even greater risk. Hopefully the government that emerges from all this results in secular liberties that are strictly enforced so that this stuff can be put in the past and Egypt can take a large step forward. The Middle East could use a successful modern democracy and it would give hope to other groups, like say in Iran, that there is a better way and it can be achieved by a determined peaceful revolution.

Problem is no one took advantage of the chaos, instead people like the OP are trying to push along bull**** stories like this and blame a group of peaceful protesters and paint a region as something that can't be fixed.

[mardi gras skin]

Reaction to this:
- The leftist press is lying to us about what is really going on over there. No attempt to tell us what the dirty leftist press is hiding from us.


I don't think the press is lying about anything, but it does seem to me that the press likes to get behind a narrative. I've seen it steam roll the left and the right, so its not a leftist thing, just a weird phenomenon where the press locks on to a particular set of stories and seems to ignore a different set of stories. The result is a real unbalanced/warped reality. A Disneyfication of reality.

Right now, the Copt/Muslim narrative is about a growing harmony. Thats VERY real and I am so glad that's getting reported. But other stories get pushed aside. Stories about continued hate crimes against the Copts sound discordant. Its real too, but no one wants to hear about it.

And again, not a left/right thing. I think Obama recently got steam rolled in one of these surreal events...but then, I think he became President for the same reason.

[Halofan21]

Most Egyptians that I talked to believe the christmas day bombing was planned by the Mubrak govt. With thier actions during those protest I believe that isn't to far from the truth.

[Jumbo]

I usually find a fair amount of agreement with much of mardi gras posts (and disagree often enough, too), and this is another such occasion. Mostly, I applaud how little game-playing posters like mardi engage in, their sincerity and forum conduct, and their willingness to at least try to be open and apply critical thinking in discussion over lock-step side-taking or habitual reactions mined from a narrow vein of ingrained and reflexive thought.

[jpyaks3]

Most Egyptians that I talked to believe the christmas day bombing was planned by the Mubrak govt. With thier actions during those protest I believe that isn't to far from the truth.

Why would the government do that? I think there is some problems with the governments approach after the event (immediately blaming foreigners, etc.) but I don't see any motive behind bombing a church. All that did was make the population unified and that played an enormous role in the success of these protests. I don't think these protests would have been nearly as successful if the church bombing had not occurred.

[mardi gras skin]

Thanks Jumbo. The part I understood sounded very complimentary. :)

[Bang]

I don't know. It this were an isolated incident, you'd have a point. But to pretend the Copts haven't been singled out for some serious hate crimes is weak. Its been going on, its still going on. The peaceful demonstrations are great. The Copts not getting killed would be great too.

Egypt is front and center right now. This is Egypt, too.

Well, maybe I'm being shortsighted in my reply. You're right, I'm sure it's a problem, Oil and water are mixing over there. There's bound to be some crime and exploitation especially against the minority.

I guess what I mean to say is I hope that these sorts of (relatively) expected problems don't undermine an open view on the situation as a whole.
I see what's happening as a positive effect of what we've been trying to accomplish in the middle east, be it directly or indirectly.

~Bang

[Larry]

Right now, the Copt/Muslim narrative is about a growing harmony. Thats VERY real and I am so glad that's getting reported. But other stories get pushed aside. Stories about continued hate crimes against the Copts sound discordant. Its real too, but no one wants to hear about it.

But maybe that's because the Copt/Muslim cooperation is new.

Granted, I'm certainly not an Egypt expert, but the impression I get (and the prejudices I have) is that violence against non-Muslims has been going on for decades. (Probably centuries.) Whereas the two groups coming together to lend aid to each other is an almost-unheard-of event.

Can anybody but a loon claim that it's "media bias" if the media shows us a new and growing trend? Is it bias to show us the unprecedented, without also going out of their way to rub our noses in the fact that the entire world isn't perfect, yet?

Folks, a new government is springing up in the Mideast. It didn't take a war for it to happen, and it looks like there's elements of Freedom of Religion in it (so far). Is it bias to think that this is more newsworthy than the fact that last week, in BFE, some **** that's been going on for centuries, happened again?

[mardi gras skin]

Can anybody but a loon claim that it's "media bias" if the media shows us a new and growing trend? Is it bias to show us the unprecedented, without also going out of their way to rub our noses in the fact that the entire world isn't perfect, yet?

I don't know about the loon thing, but like I said, I don't think its media bias. Its just distorted. I can't trust the news to present an accurate description of accounts because they are drawn to unique stories. I guess that is media bias. They are biased toward the sensationalistic stories and are willing to allow the audience to come to the conclusion that these unique stories are an accurate representation of the whole society.

Maybe the news is just too clunky an instrument to expect it could present a more complex and true picture of events.

[DRSmith]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

Only those with their own agendas make issues of a criminals fiath or lack there of.

Although it is interesting in a preverted way we will admit that the things we can take in can affect how one reacts.

Be it blaming Islam for violence or talk radio

[mardi gras skin]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

Yeah, I think so. If one person kills a person over a personal disagreement, that issue very specific. If a group of people targets a person from another group, the murder extends past the individual and spreads fear to the entire community. That murder says, "you could be next."

[twa]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?




It does when the country in question is currently addressing needed reforms in govt and rights.

---------- Post added February-7th-2011 at 07:50 AM ----------


It does when the country in question is currently addressing needed reforms in govt and rights.

added

ignoring trends and destabilizing factors(in a already unstable area) can get ya in trouble.,while eyes are focus on the square many things are going on

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/02/american-warships-heading-to-egypt/

[Dan T.]

I don't think the press is lying about anything, but it does seem to me that the press likes to get behind a narrative. I've seen it steam roll the left and the right, so its not a leftist thing, just a weird phenomenon where the press locks on to a particular set of stories and seems to ignore a different set of stories. The result is a real unbalanced/warped reality. A Disneyfication of reality.

Right now, the Copt/Muslim narrative is about a growing harmony. Thats VERY real and I am so glad that's getting reported. But other stories get pushed aside. Stories about continued hate crimes against the Copts sound discordant. Its real too, but no one wants to hear about it.

And again, not a left/right thing. I think Obama recently got steam rolled in one of these surreal events...but then, I think he became President for the same reason.

I think that's a valid point, mardi gras. Not to sidetrack this thread, but another example of media sticking to a narrative is how Daniel Snyder has become the caricature of the impatient, bad guy sports owner out to milk the fans. .. the billionaire bully. To the media, whatever kernels of truth spawned that reputation is almost irrelevant nowbecause that archetype has been set in stone. All stories about him must fit into that narrative arc. That's what he's up against in his battle against the press.

[Destino]

Does it matter what faith a murder or claims or why a person takes the life of another?

Only those with their own agendas make issues of a criminals fiath or lack there of.

Although it is interesting in a preverted way we will admit that the things we can take in can affect how one reacts.

Be it blaming Islam for violence or talk radio
1 - Faith matters when it's the motive for murder. Not sure how one could even begin to argue otherwise in this situation. I'm not saying I blame Islam because that would be absurd, but I do think religion plays a major role in the violence currently gripping the middle east.

2 - I will absolutely blame the instigators for the results of their behavior. Be it talk radio or crazy religious loons. It's easier to divide and inflame than it is to bring together and heal. The people that draw their power by spreading rage and distrust around the world are a big part of the problem.

[DRSmith]

1 - Faith matters when it's the motive for murder. Not sure how one could even begin to argue otherwise in this situation. I'm not saying I blame Islam because that would be absurd, but I do think religion plays a major role in the violence currently gripping the middle east.

2 - I will absolutely blame the instigators for the results of their behavior. Be it talk radio or crazy religious loons. It's easier to divide and inflame than it is to bring together and heal. The people that draw their power by spreading rage and distrust around the world are a big part of the problem.

As long as one is consistent in the application of cuase and effect I have no problem but for the last few weeks I heard how the indivual is responsible not the enviroment around them.

The next question is if you people are okay with identifying the faith of the person and say it is a factor can the same be done with those who kill abortion doctors and blow up their facilities and lie and who claim the Christian faith?

[twa]

As long as one is consistent in the application of cuase and effect I have no problem but for the last few weeks I heard how the indivual is responsible not the enviroment around them.

The next question is if you people are okay with identifying the faith of the person and say it is a factor can the same be done with those who kill abortion doctors and blow up their facilities and lie and who claim the Christian faith?

I'm perfectly fine with being identified as a potential threat if I espouse violence or am a member of a body that does.(and likely am tracked ,despite holding that killing abortion providers is wrong)

The liberals squishy linkage of what it calls violent rhetoric in certain cases (such as the Arizona shooting) is amusing....Environment :ols:

Both can be culpable...and I like profiling

[Riggo-toni]

But maybe that's because the Copt/Muslim cooperation is new.

Granted, I'm certainly not an Egypt expert, but the impression I get (and the prejudices I have) is that violence against non-Muslims has been going on for decades. (Probably centuries.) Whereas the two groups coming together to lend aid to each other is an almost-unheard-of event.


I already posted this in another thread, but in case you missed it:

Coptic Christians make up about 10% of Egypt's current population. In the early years of Egypt's independence from the decaying Ottoman Empire, they were extraordinarily successful. Their downward spiral began when Nasser seized power. Although Nasser was tolerant of their religious practices (in the 50s and 60s the emphasis was on Arab nationalism, not Islamicism), Coptics at the time of his coup owned about half of the nation's wealth, much of which the gov't seized and redistributed under its socialist policies.

Things got much worse when Sadat took power. As Muslim fundamentalism grew, Copts came under attack from extremists. Sadat ignored pleas for protection, and would later exile Pope Shenouda III to a monestary and arrest a number of Coptic bishops and priests who protested against his failure to protect them.

In '85, Mubarak allowed the Pope to return. Though Mubarak's rule over Copts was still repressive, his determination to clamp down on Muslim extremists earned him a degree of loyalty. As bad as Mubarak might be, it seemed better to give up some freedom in exchange for security. All that has changed over the last year. In the wake of renewed attacks, Copts no longer seem to view Mubarak as a necessary evil.

[Spec138]

1 - Faith matters when it's the motive for murder. Not sure how one could even begin to argue otherwise in this situation. I'm not saying I blame Islam because that would be absurd, but I do think religion plays a major role in the violence currently gripping the middle east.


If faith is the reason, why not blame Islam? I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but it's apparent that Islam is really good at motivating people to kill. IMO we should be able to speak up and say that these kind of things aren't acceptable in a modern society; Islam needs to change something.

I'm not talking about race and Arabs here, just this acceptance of a faith that has had very violent trends lately. Christianity has had to reconcile it's teachings with secular ethics throughout history and I really hope Islam can do the same.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I'm not talking about race and Arabs here, just this acceptance of a faith that has had very violent trends lately. Christianity has had to reconcile it's teachings with secular ethics throughout history and I really hope Islam can do the same.

I think that's why Egypt is so important. To have the largest Muslim/Arab nation in the Middle East become a modern, secular society would be a game changer. Something for other peoples and nations in the region to emulate. It's what some envisioned Iraq to be when we invaded and ousted Sadaam (I'm not getting into that disaster) but this is happening naturally.

That's just my opinion though. I was big on the Green Revolution in Iran (and ultimately disappointed) and I thought that would be the game changer. But this has even bigger potential as it's a Sunni country.

[Larry]

I think that's why Egypt is so important. To have the largest Muslim/Arab nation in the Middle East become a modern, secular society would be a game changer. Something for other peoples and nations in the region to emulate.

Especially if they can become a prosperous, modern, secular society.

It we could achieve that, for a Trillion dollars, it would be the best money we've spent since the Louisiana Purchase.

[twa]

It is not for us to achieve,though we can encourage it

[DRSmith]

I think that's why Egypt is so important. To have the largest Muslim/Arab nation in the Middle East become a modern, secular society would be a game changer. Something for other peoples and nations in the region to emulate. It's what some envisioned Iraq to be when we invaded and ousted Sadaam (I'm not getting into that disaster) but this is happening naturally.

That's just my opinion though. I was big on the Green Revolution in Iran (and ultimately disappointed) and I thought that would be the game changer. But this has even bigger potential as it's a Sunni country.

Turkey is trying to become more secular but all nations face struggles as they try to change the US is not different, ending slavery, getting civil rights both came with battles look at things like ending DADT or gay marriage or even health care all these things are coming with huge battles inside the country and people protesting change.

[Bang]

It is not for us to achieve,though we can encourage it

good point, and that is how I see a lot of this in Egypt and in America.
I get a little frustrated when peole talk in terms of what we should allow or what we want, and the fact is this is about what THEY want, and our attitude to the opposite is part and parcel why they need to have these revolts.

I am concerned about radicals taking over, but we need to step lightly.

I see a lot of this,, the Iranian revolt, tunisia, egypt, and all of the other ripples around the region as an indication that what we went to war for could work, and that what we're seeing is the fruition of what was envisioned when we went off "nation building".

I hope it works.

~Bang

[twa]

Not encouraging

http://www.aina.org/news/20110223210634.htm
(AINA) -- For the second time in as many days, Egyptian armed force stormed the 5th century old St. Bishoy monastery in Wadi el-Natroun, 110 kilometers from Cairo. Live ammunition was fired, wounding two monks and six Coptic monastery workers. Several sources confirmed the army's use of RPG ammunition. Four people have been arrested including three monks and a Coptic lawyer who was at the monastery investigating yesterday's army attack.

Monk Aksios Ava Bishoy told activist Nader Shoukry of Freecopts the armed forces stormed the main entrance gate to the monastery in the morning using five tanks, armored vehicles and a bulldozer to demolish the fence built by the monastery last month to protect themselves and the monastery from the lawlessness which prevailed in Egypt during the January 25 Uprising.

"When we tried to address them, the army fired live bullets, wounding Father Feltaows in the leg and Father Barnabas in the abdomen," said Monk Ava Bishoy. "Six Coptic workers in the monastery were also injured, some with serious injuries to the chest."

The injured were rushed to the nearby Sadat Hospital, the ones in serious condition were transferred to the Anglo-Egyptian Hospital in Cairo.

Father Hemanot Ava Bishoy said the army fired live ammunition and RPGs continuously for 30 minutes, which hit part of the ancient fence inside the monastery. "The army was shocked to see the monks standing there praying 'Lord have mercy' without running away. This is what really upset them," he said. "As the soldiers were demolishing the gate and the fence they were chanting 'Allahu Akbar' and 'Victory, Victory'."

He also added that the army prevented the monastery's car from taking the injured to hospital.

The army also attacked the Monastery of St. Makarios of Alexandria in Wady el-Rayan, Fayoum, 100 km from Cairo. It stormed the monastery and fired live ammunition on the monks. Father Mina said that one monk was shot and more than ten have injuries caused by being beaten with batons. The army demolished the newly erected fence and one room from the actual monastery and confiscated building materials. The monastery had also built a fence to protect itself after January 25 and after being attacked by armed Arabs and robbers leading to the injury of six monks, including one monk in critical condition who is still hospitalized.

The army had given on February 21 an ultimatum to this monastery that if the fence was not demolished within 48 hours by the monks, the army would remove it themselves (AINA 2-23-2011).

The Egyptian Armed Forces issued a statement on their Facebook page denying that any attack took place on St. Bishoy Monastery in Wady el-Natroun, "Reflecting our belief in the freedom and chastity of places of worship of all Egyptians." The statement went on to say that the army just demolished some fences built on State property and that it has no intention of demolishing the monastery itself (video of army shooting at Monastery).

Father Hedra Ava Bishoy said they are in possession of whole carton of empty bullet shells besides the people who are presently in hospital to prove otherwise.

...
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/coptic-christian-priest-killed-in-egypt-setting-off-new-protests-by-religious-minority-116719964.html

ASSIUT, Egypt - A Coptic Christian priest has been killed in southern Egypt, triggering street demonstrations by several thousand Christians.

The priest was found dead in his home. A fellow clergyman, Danoub Thabet, says his body had several stab wounds. He says neighbours reported seeing several masked men leaving the apartment and shouting "Allahu akbar," or "God is great," suggesting the killing was motivated by the divide between Egypt's Muslims and its minority Coptic community.

About 3,000 protesters scuffled with Muslim shop owners Tuesday night and smashed the windows of a police car in the city, Assiut.

Egypt's religious tension spiked in January when a suicide bomber killed 21 people outside a Coptic church in the port city of Alexandria. Days of protests followed.

[visionary]

First article: Very odd and deeply disturbing if true.
Second article: Sad and dissapointing, but unfortunately not too surprising.
We already know there are some very bigoted, xenophobic, and violent people in Egypt.
There's also a lot of people who aren't.
The military attacking monks however is incredibly worrying and bizzare.

[grego]

I know not all Muslims are terrorists, but it's apparent that Islam is really good at motivating people to kill. .

lunacy.

jesus not only taught his followers to kill in his name, but i'm pretty sure he wacked a few degenerates who got out of line, too.

[twa]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/261405/egypt-s-copts-suffer-more-attacks-nina-shea

Copts in Egypt are begging for Egyptian Armed Forces protection today after a Muslim mob of several thousand attacked their church in the village of Soul, about 30 kilometers from Cairo, last night. The Church of St. Mina and St. George was torched, and its clergy are unaccounted for. The fire department and security forces failed to respond to Coptic pleas for help during the arson attack.

According to a report from the Washington-based Coptic American Friendship Association, the mob, chanting “Allahu Akbar,” pulled down the church’s cross and detonated a handful of gas cylinders inside the structure. The ensuing fire destroyed the church and all its contents, including the sacred relics of centuries-old saints. It is reported that a romantic relationship between a Christian man and a Muslim woman, which sharia forbids, and the refusal of the woman’s father to kill her to restore the community’s “honor,” aroused the Muslim ire. An account of this incident is here. (I also received a message from a Coptic friend that this week members of the Muslim Brotherhood, shouting “Allahu Akbar,” stormed a Christian school on Thabit Street in downtown Asyut and attempted to take it over. Egyptian security forces, including an army unit, intervened and routed out the Brotherhood members. The school had been built by Presbyterian missionaries in the early 1900s, and is now directed by Presbyterian Pastor Naji. Christian leaders from this southern area expressed a deepening sense of insecurity as the Muslim Brotherhood emerges from the underground.)

This incident follows separate brutal attacks by armed forces using heavy machine-gun fire against two monasteries, ostensibly for zoning problems, on February 23. Compass Direct, an American-based Christian news agency, reported that one monk and six church workers were shot and wounded when the Egyptian Army attacked the Coptic Orthodox Anba Bishoy Monastery in Wadi Al-Natroun, 110 kilometers north of Cairo, in order to destroy a wall monks had built to defend their property from raiders. On the same day, it reported that, in a similar incident, the army also attacked the Anba Makarious Al Sakandarie Monastery in Al Fayoum, 130 kilometers southwest of Cairo. Under an Egyptian law carried over from Ottoman times, state permission is required to build or repair church property and such permits are rarely issued.

There are growing concerns that Egypt’s 10 million or so Coptic Christians are being targeted under the cloak of political chaos during these uncertain times.

[twa]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/07/egypt.clashes/index.html?hpt=T2

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/WORLD/africa/05/07/egypt.clashes/t1larg.church.afp.gi.jpg

At least six people were killed and 120 injured in sectarian clashes outside a church in Cairo on Saturday, officials said.

A group of Muslim Salafists attacked the Saint Mena Coptic Orthodox Church. Gunfire rang out as people sprinted for cover.

"With my own eyes I saw three people killed and dozens injured," said Mina Adel, a Christian resident. "There's no security here. There's a big problem. People attacked us, and we have to protect ourselves."

Egyptian Interior Ministry spokesman Alla Mahmoud said in a statement that six people were killed and 120 injured.

He said the clashes were sparked by reports of a Christian woman who married a Muslim man and was allegedly being held inside the church.

[Destino]

Disappointing and upsetting. Amazing how much the worlds media had to say about the so called "ground zero mosque" (utter nonsense) and when that all boils down to it, it's an argument about building permits. 9% of Egypt's population are being attacked by a violent minority allowed to exist by an accommodating majority.

[DRSmith]

I find it more disappointing people try to lay the blame at the feet of one group in hopes of furthering their own agendas, both sides are engaging in this behaviour as the violence is not one sided.

The violence on both sides is being condemned as niether are following the teachings of the religions they claim to follow.

The difference in religions is being used as an excuse for violence

[jpyaks3]

Disappointing and upsetting. Amazing how much the worlds media had to say about the so called "ground zero mosque" (utter nonsense) and when that all boils down to it, it's an argument about building permits. 9% of Egypt's population are being attacked by a violent minority allowed to exist by an accommodating majority.

There is definitely push back against Salafism here. http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/428140 Military is trying to control the problem but there are also plenty of anti-salafi protests and the people just took back the Mosque of Light from Salafi hardliners. So to say that it there is an accommodating majority isn't really true.

[visionary]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/05/201157222446186609.html


Scores held in Egypt after sectarian clashes

At least 230 people injured in violence between Muslims and Christians that left 12 people dead in Cairo.
Last Modified: 08 May 2011 11:19

Egypt's military rulers have detained 190 people in connection with the clashes between Muslims and Christians in Cairo in which at least 12 people were killed and more than 230 wounded.

The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces ordered "the transfer of all those arrested in connection with (Saturday's) events, and they number 190, to the Supreme Military Court, as a deterrent to all those who think of toying with the potential of this nation."


The council, which has ruled Egypt since a popular uprising toppled president Hosni Mubarak, also said it would "set up a committee to assess the damage from the clashes" and restore property.

In a statement on Sunday, it also called on "all communities in Egypt, the youth of the revolution, the national forces and Islamic and Christian scholars to stand like a wall against any attempt by the forces of evil and darkness to tear the national fabric."

Egypt's cabinet also said on Sunday in an emergency meeting that it will use an "iron hand" to protect national security.

The government has said it will step up security at religious sites and activate laws dealing with terrorism, to give police more power to prevent interfaith clashes. The rules also enable stricter punishments for vandalising houses of worship.

Egypt's prime minister had called Sunday's meeting to discuss the sectarian violence, a day after witnesses said a mob of conservative Muslims marched on a Coptic church in the northwestern neighbourhood of Imbaba

[visionary]

http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn


Atmosphere in imbaba very tense. Cnn crew had to flee angry stick wielding, stone throwing crowd. Army firing in air to disperse crowd. 6 hours ago


Small group of Copts protesting in front of US embassy calling for int'l protection, say military doing nothing to protect them. 3 hours ago


Large crowd of Coptic demonstrators in front of TV building in Maspiro. 1 hour ago


Muslim woman with headscarf carrying cross at protest in front of TV building. People chanting "Christians, Muslims, one hand." 1 hour ago


stones being thrown at demo getting very nasty 1 hour ago


Small group of military riot police trying to break it up outside Egyptian TV...not sure if there are enough to restore order. 1 hour ago


Have seen four people already injured by stones. SOme people throwing rocks from rooftops onto protesters. 1 hour ago


Now seeing Muslims and Christians chanting "Muslims, Christians, one hand" again. People on side of road clapping. 27 minutes ago

[Koala]

^^^ Bigger, I cant quite read your post from the swimming pool.

So, anyhow, did they ever figure out if their was any truth to the rumor that a convert girl had been abducted? I understand that things are hectic in Cairo, but this is basic journalism.

[visionary]

http://twitter.com/#!/bencnn

Calmer now in Maspiro in front of TV building. Crowd continues to grow, no more rock throwing. 47 minutes ago


Sound system has arrived at protest outside Maspiro TV building. Vendors are at work. Crowd growing. Peaceful for now. 9 minutes ago

:)

[SackMachine]

^^^ Bigger, I cant quite read your post from the swimming pool.

So, anyhow, did they ever figure out if their was any truth to the rumor that a convert girl had been abducted? I understand that things are hectic in Cairo, but this is basic journalism.

Nope. From what my family in Egypt are telling me, is every time an extremist group wants to attack Christians, they will create a story/rumor and then use that to recruit more people for their attack. The shooters that attacked a Church a few years ago also stated a similar story as the reason behind why they attacked.

Most recently the reason behind the attacks on Christians was Camilla. She is the wife of a Priest in Egypt and the extremist group claimed that she had converted to Islam and was now being held hostage in a Church. She made a video where she stood next to her husband the Priest and her kids stating that she had been kidnapped by the extremists and forced to convert to Islam or they would go after her family.

[DRSmith]

How can one be forced to convert?

[twa]

Read a history book

[SackMachine]

How can one be forced to convert?

In order for one to become Muslim, all they have to do is state a sentence.
Her story is that she was forced to state that sentence or else her kidnappers would kill her family.

[DRSmith]

Read a history book

If you agree to convert to save you life you are still agreeing, no one can force a person to convert to another religion.

And in Christianity disowning your faith is pretty bad

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 02:42 PM ----------


In order for one to become Muslim, all they have to do is state a sentence.
Her story is that she was forced to state that sentence or else her kidnappers would kill her family.

So she was not forced she chose to say it

[SackMachine]

Yes in Christianity disowning your faith is bad but it is also a forgiving faith that will take you back. In this case, what do you think a mother would do when her kids are threatened? Say a sentence even though she didn't believe in what she was saying OR tell her kidnappers to go ahead and kill her kids.

She may never have "converted" in her heart, but to those who heard her say that sentence, she converted.

[DRSmith]

Yes in Christianity disowning your faith is bad but it is also a forgiving faith that will take you back. In this case, what do you think a mother would do when her kids are threatened? Say a sentence even though she didn't believe in what she was saying OR tell her kidnappers to go ahead and kill her kids.

She may never have "converted" in her heart, but to those who heard her say that sentence, she converted.

The bible is full of examples of people who either lost thier life for their faith or in the case of Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son in faith

Matthew 10:but whoever disowns me before men, I will also disown him before my Father who is in the heavens. 34*Do not think I came to put peace upon the earth; I came to put, not peace, but a sword. 35*For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. 36*Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household. 37*He that has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and he that has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me

[Destino]

There is definitely push back against Salafism here. http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/428140 Military is trying to control the problem but there are also plenty of anti-salafi protests and the people just took back the Mosque of Light from Salafi hardliners. So to say that it there is an accommodating majority isn't really true.

So have the government publicly state that their coptic population is equal in all ways and free to practice their religion without restrictions *and* announce that these hardliners are criminals that will now be placed under investigation for their role in recent attacks. Raid their compounds and arrest any and all leaders found to have been involved in any of these attacks. Also investigate the claims the the Egyptian military is complicit in these attacks as has been the claim of Coptic's for quite some time now.

Anything short of that is accommodating. In the US we would not tolerate the KKK launching attacks on mosques only to have a few people actually involved in the attacks arrested... meanwhile their leadership goes untouched and reports of police officers conspiring with them gets ignored or brushed off without a serious investigation. We've been through that here and we know it today as "institutionalized racism". It's when the government did the bare minimum in order to pretend it was doing something.

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 06:49 PM ----------


If you agree to convert to save you life you are still agreeing, no one can force a person to convert to another religion.

And in Christianity disowning your faith is pretty bad

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 02:42 PM ----------



So she was not forced she chose to say it
Is this post a joke? Please tell me it's a joke.

[DRSmith]

If you think faith should only be a matter of convience then I can how you would want to see it that way

[twa]

If you think faith should only be a matter of convience then I can how you would want to see it that way

So if the story is true you judge her apostate and the cause of the problem?....What would Peter say

[DRSmith]

Not saying this woman could not end up like Peter and be really sorry for what she had done but what if she said to them she wanted to convert but her husband would not allow her and was abusive.

[Destino]

If you think faith should only be a matter of convience then I can how you would want to see it that way

If someone kidnaps you and threatens your family in order to get you to do X then you are being forced to do X. It is that simple.

[SackMachine]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110508/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt_sectarian_clashes

Tensions have been building for the past year as Salafis protested the alleged abduction by the Coptic Church of a priest's wife, Camilla Shehata. The Salafis claim she converted to Islam to escape an unhappy marriage — a phenomenon they maintain is common.


On Saturday just before the violence erupted in Imbaba, Shehata appeared with her husband and child on a Christian TV station broadcast from outside of Egypt and asserted that she was still a Christian and had never converted.

"Let the protesters leave the Church alone and turn their attention to Egypt's future," she said from an undisclosed location.

Then right after


The bloodshed began Saturday around sundown when word spread around the neighborhood that a Christian woman who married a Muslim had been abducted and was being kept in the Virgin Mary Church against her will.

The report, which was never confirmed by local religious figures, sent a large mob of Muslims toward the church. Christians created a human barricade around the building and clashes erupted. Gunfire sounded across the neighborhood, and witnesses said people on rooftops nearby were firing into the crowd.

[DRSmith]

If someone kidnaps you and threatens your family in order to get you to do X then you are being forced to do X. It is that simple.

NO you still chose to do x.

People can threaten you but you still chose to act, the question is which has a greater pull over you.

[Destino]

NO you still chose to do x.

People can threaten you but you still chose to act, the question is which has a greater pull over you.
That's ridiculous. Do you apply this ridiculous standard to rape cases as well?

[Hubbs]

If you agree to convert to save you life you are still agreeing, no one can force a person to convert to another religion.

And in Christianity disowning your faith is pretty bad

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 02:42 PM ----------



So she was not forced she chose to say it

This is the most ridiculous post I've read here in a while.

[DRSmith]

That's ridiculous. Do you apply this ridiculous standard to rape cases as well?

History is full of examples of people who lost their lives or watched loved ones die rather than deny their faith.

[Destino]

History is full of examples of people who lost their lives or watched loved ones die rather than deny their faith.
1 - Answer the question.
2 - Are you arguing that refusing to make a martyr of herself indicates that she was not forced. Martyr or willingly are the only options in your mind?

[Ancalagon the Black]

NO you still chose to do x.

People can threaten you but you still chose to act, the question is which has a greater pull over you.

You appear to be using the most trivial and meaningless definition of "force" anyone has ever used.

[DRSmith]

If I tell you that I will kill someone you love unless you kill a hundred people, you are given a choice
Everything in life is a choice the bible is full of examples of different ways one is tempted into denying their faith.

Some are subltle and some are straight out.

[mardi gras skin]

Smith, I'm making some assumptions about your position that you could clear up for me if you would answer these two questions:

Do you think this girl has become apostate because she renounced her faith under duress?

If you were in her position, would it be the more honorable choice for you to renounce your faith or to let them kill your family? And I am asking this about you and your family because I want to make sure that the theoretical and practical responses align so if you could answer the question asked that would be most helpful.

[Thiebear]

I'd say/do A LOT to save my family. it's easier to be heroic when the consequences affect only yourself.

The crux of this is your belief and my belief stem from exactly the same thing and end up in the same location with a slightly different paths?
Thats a death sentence? Should be a Tuesday morning discussion over breakfast tea/chai.

[jpyaks3]

So have the government publicly state that their coptic population is equal in all ways and free to practice their religion without restrictions *and* announce that these hardliners are criminals that will now be placed under investigation for their role in recent attacks. Raid their compounds and arrest any and all leaders found to have been involved in any of these attacks. Also investigate the claims the the Egyptian military is complicit in these attacks as has been the claim of Coptic's for quite some time now.

Anything short of that is accommodating. In the US we would not tolerate the KKK launching attacks on mosques only to have a few people actually involved in the attacks arrested... meanwhile their leadership goes untouched and reports of police officers conspiring with them gets ignored or brushed off without a serious investigation. We've been through that here and we know it today as "institutionalized racism". It's when the government did the bare minimum in order to pretend it was doing something.

---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 06:49 PM ----------


Is this post a joke? Please tell me it's a joke.

The situation is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. A lot of these attacks are coming in cycles of protests, Copts protest and Salafi's counterprotest and it gets violent between the two sides. We saw this in November with the police and the Copts over building permits and since the revolution there have been a few other examples. There isn't compounds and there really isn't anything to raid, its intercommunal violence stemming from protests and counter protests clashing. The military right now has not been stepping in forcefully enough in my opinion to protect the Coptic community and to prevent these clashes of communities in protests. But they are in a very difficult position, this violence is arising from Coptic protests for more rights and some anti-Salafi protests too so they don't want to just squash protests and demonstrations but these demonstrations are where these clashes are happening. This is a case where community leaders on both sides need to try and step in and calm down their respective communities, hopefully once the new government and Constitution are formed Coptics will be more protected but until then its a difficult situation for everyone involved. But there has been significant pushback against Salafi ideology.

Upper Egypt is a different story, there are blood feuds that have nothing to do with religion and are just familial things so I can't really comment on reports from upper Egypt, but in the cities this is clear inter communal violence that can't be solved simply by raiding compounds.

[DRSmith]

Smith, I'm making some assumptions about your position that you could clear up for me if you would answer these two questions:

Do you think this girl has become apostate because she renounced her faith under duress?

If you were in her position, would it be the more honorable choice for you to renounce your faith or to let them kill your family? And I am asking this about you and your family because I want to make sure that the theoretical and practical responses align so if you could answer the question asked that would be most helpful.

My view of her on this issue is a non starter as we only see one thing here, we do not know if this was lie, a temporary fear or if she lacked faith all together.

If it was me then I would hope my faith is strong enough to with stand this.

At the end of the day what is the purpose of having faith if when under pressure you cast it aside to please others.

[mardi gras skin]

If it was me then I would hope my faith is strong enough to with stand this.

So then, renouncing your faith in order to save the lives of your children is an act of disloyalty to God. That is an interesting point of view.

I would see it something like this. If, for some some strange reason, I were told to renounce my marriage vows or my children would be killed, which choice would be the faithful one? Would holding my vows be the faithful act of love or would protecting our children be the act of faithfulness?

[DRSmith]

There is a difference between a marriage mate and God.

One actually has the ability to make right the wrongs and restore the dead back to life, and that is where faith comes in, do you believe God will actually reward the faithful or not.

[Destino]

The situation is a hell of a lot more complicated than that. A lot of these attacks are coming in cycles of protests, Copts protest and Salafi's counterprotest and it gets violent between the two sides. We saw this in November with the police and the Copts over building permits and since the revolution there have been a few other examples. There isn't compounds and there really isn't anything to raid, its intercommunal violence stemming from protests and counter protests clashing. The military right now has not been stepping in forcefully enough in my opinion to protect the Coptic community and to prevent these clashes of communities in protests. But they are in a very difficult position, this violence is arising from Coptic protests for more rights and some anti-Salafi protests too so they don't want to just squash protests and demonstrations but these demonstrations are where these clashes are happening. This is a case where community leaders on both sides need to try and step in and calm down their respective communities, hopefully once the new government and Constitution are formed Coptics will be more protected but until then its a difficult situation for everyone involved. But there has been significant pushback against Salafi ideology.


It seems like you want to complicate the simple. Coptic Christian are demanding equal treatment under the law. Basic civil rights. There is no justice so long as inequality exists. The belief, and a state supporting that belief, that one group is less valuable or worthy than another always without fail leads to atrocities committed against the lesser group. We've seen it throughout history and it remains true today. In the US we tell ourselves we've moved beyond such problems but we have not. The US is currently seeing challenges to charging minors with prostitution. (http://www.texastribune.org/texas-courts/texas-supreme-court/texas-supreme-court-rules-on-child-prostitutes/) This has gone on because prostitutes are not seen as equal people by much of society. They are whores.

Anything less than equal status will lead to continued bloodshed, abuse, and injustice. The Coptic Christians know this and that is why they are out in the streets protesting. They do not need to be reigned in by their leaders because what they are doing has to be done and those seeking to use violence to silence them and seeking to make a theocracy that views them as a tolerated evil have to be stopped. Failing to do so will lead to tremendous pain with no chance of justice for those people.

Inequality always leads to horror.

[Thiebear]

So if you renounce your loyalty to GOD to a godless heathen to save your family you have failed? Your a tough group.
I would think it would only matter what you hold in your heart for God himself that would matter between the two of you.
Never renounce your love for God to God, but tell a punk anything you need to get back home and hug that beautiful daughter.

I'm a godless heathen, but i've read pieces/parts

[mardi gras skin]

There is a difference between a marriage mate and God.

Faithfulness is faithfulness. I know my wife would consider it an act of faithfulness to her and to our family to save our children. And I know God loves my children at least as much as my wife.

[Hubbs]

So, here's yet another wrinkle in the ongoing game of determining just how DR has come to his conclusion: It appears that he's of the belief that only the spoken word matters to God.

In other words, despite the fact that most of your friends and family will know when you're being sarcastic, hyperbolic, or outright lying - especially when they know you're in a situation that would cause you to lie for some sort of greater good - an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, who knows your thoughts and is in control of your very soul, is apparently incapable of figuring out whether or not you mean what you say when someone is pointing a gun at your child's head.

I know, I know. DR is going to come in and say that there are examples in the Bible of those who would rather die than give into demands of saying something out loud that they didn't actually mean, and those people are exalted. In my opinion, those are classic stories of defiance that arise when a certain group is being oppressed by the powers that be of any given era. In this case, the powers were those of Rome. Stories of defiance are very inspirational to those who have to live in underground tunnels. But that doesn't mean that I think that the spoken word trumps all. In fact, one of the things I appreciate most about Christianity is the frequent teaching that what matters most is what lies in your heart. And I'll never believe that an all-knowing God would find you at fault for uttering a sentence you absolutely don't believe in order to save your kids. If it's not true, then it's not true.

[twa]

If giving your life to save/protect others is respected/worthy,how much mores so should be risking your soul sir?

[DRSmith]

Faithfulness is faithfulness. I know my wife would consider it an act of faithfulness to her and to our family to save our children. And I know God loves my children at least as much as my wife.

Well I tell you what you show me scriptures that state it is okay to deny your faith and love, and claim love for another as a means of saving your life and I will change my stance.

The claim is not only denying her faith but claiming another.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 12:37 AM ----------


If giving your life to save/protect others is respected/worthy,how much mores so should be risking your soul sir?

Are you not one of those who believe his morals should be placed on others through the rule of law?

Now if you can disown your faith as a matter of convience then why should your morals be imposed upon others?

[Hubbs]

Well I tell you what you show me scriptures that state it is okay to deny your faith and love, and claim love for another as a means of saving your life and I will change my stance.

Peter: I don't know that guy.

Peter: No, seriously, I don't know that guy.

Peter: Look, I'm not making **** up, I don't know that guy.

Upon this rock a church is founded....

[DRSmith]

Peter: I don't know that guy.

Peter: No, seriously, I don't know that guy.

Peter: Look, I'm not making **** up, I don't know that guy.

Upon this rock a church is founded....

Peter was not the rock to begin with and he was deeply ashamed of himself for his actions, and Jesus told him he was going to do this, but Jesus did not claim to say he was something else. Peter still in the ended up in prison for his faith and tradition has it that he was martyred.

This is account does not show it is okay so please find another that states it is okay

[twa]

[/COLOR]

Are you not one of those who believe his morals should be placed on others through the rule of law?

Now if you can disown your faith as a matter of convience then why should your morals be imposed upon others?

My morals?....No,though most all law is based on someones morals

Afraid to answer?..... Convenience?

[mardi gras skin]

Well I tell you what you show me scriptures that state it is okay to deny your faith and love, and claim love for another as a means of saving your life and I will change my stance.

The claim is not only denying her faith but claiming another.

The correct question is, "Is it ok to lie to protect defenseless people from violence?" And of course it is. In Joshua 2:1-6, Rahab lies to protect the Hebrew spies and goes down as a hero. She's commended for her faithfulness in Hebrews 11:31 and she's an example of faithfulness in James 2:25.

This lady in Egypt was given a choice. Telling the truth would make her complicit in murder but telling a lie would protected the innocent. She made the most loving choice she could make and in doing so she showed herself to be a faithful disciple of Christ:

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
_Jesus

[DRSmith]

My morals?....No,though most all law is based on someones morals

Afraid to answer?..... Convenience?

Answer what?

[mardi gras skin]

Smith, as you believe faithlessness can be coerced at gunpoint, do you believe that faithfulness can be coerced at gunpoint as well?

[DRSmith]

The correct question is, "Is it ok to lie to protect defenseless people from violence?" And of course it is. In Joshua 2:1-6, Rahab lies to protect the Hebrew spies and goes down as a hero. She's commended for her faithfulness in Hebrews 11:31 and she's an example of faithfulness in James 2:25.

This lady in Egypt was given a choice. Telling the truth would make her complicit in murder but telling a lie would protected the innocent. She made the most loving choice she could make and in doing so she showed herself to be a faithful disciple of Christ:

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
_Jesus

No telling the truth would not make her complicite, those who do the act would be guilty by themselves.

Was Jesus guilty for the death of his followers, he knew they would suffer and told them so

If Rahab had been caught lying she would have been killed, and one must remember at the time Rahab was not a worshipper of God if you want to say her lying at that point was okay you have to say her harlotry was too. If the claim is true and she was lying to her captors then I guess they will have to go ahead with their threat of course her telling the truth now would make her complicit.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 07:01 AM ----------


Smith, as you believe faithlessness can be coerced at gunpoint, do you believe that faithfulness can be coerced at gunpoint as well?

No God never forces a person to be faithful you either are or you are not

[mardi gras skin]

No telling the truth would not make her complicite, those who do the act would be guilty by themselves.

Was it a loving act for her to save the lives of her family or wasn't it?


If Rahab had been caught lying she would have been killed, if the claim is true and she was lying to her captors then I guess they will have to go ahead with their threat of course her telling the truth now would make her complicit.

I can't unscramble the code you used here. Can you try again?

[DRSmith]

Was it a loving act for her to save the lives of her family or wasn't it?



I can't unscramble the code you used here. Can you try again?

So you would say that Abraham by being willing to offer up his son as a show of faith was an unloving parent?

God was an unloving parent sending his son to Earth knowing he was going to be tortured and killed?

If they were going to kill her kids before why won't they kill them now?

[mardi gras skin]

Ok, so we are left to assume that you believe her lying to protect her family was not a loving act.

Fine. You're theology is one that values honesty above the lives of people.

[DRSmith]

Ok, so we are left to assume that you believe her lying to protect her family was not a loving act.

Fine. You're theology is one that values honesty above the lives of people.

No because at the end of the day if you teach your children that it is okay to deny your faith to save you life then what are teaching them for the future?

If Jesus words are to be believed and that found in Revelation

Jesus never said being a Christian was going to be easy in fact he said the opposite and he knew people would be faced with these sorts of situations so he said in Matthew

28*And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na

[mardi gras skin]

No because at the end of the day if you teach your children that it is okay to deny your faith to save you life then what are teaching them for the future?

I will teach my daughters this: "This is how everyone will know that you are a disciple of Christ...that you love each other." I will teach them that a theology that devalues innocent life so much that you'd rather see people killed than tell a lie to protect them is not a loving theology. I will point them to great men and women in the Bible who loved God and loved their fellow humans more than they loved a rigid, cold hearted philosophy that unthinkingly demands honestly regardless of the consequences.

In short, I will point to you and tell them, "Avoid becoming like this man at all costs."

[Burgold]

No because at the end of the day if you teach your children that it is okay to deny your faith to save you life then what are teaching them for the future?

If Jesus words are to be believed and that found in Revelation

Jesus never said being a Christian was going to be easy in fact he said the opposite and he knew people would be faced with these sorts of situations so he said in Matthew

28*And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na

In Judaism, there is a long history of hiding one's faith that pretty much goes back to biblical times. When you are surrounded by armies who will slaughter you for the crime of faith, faith becomes a more private devotion. In the 1950's most Jews in the United States refused to wear a chai or talk about their faith for fear of ostracization, abuse, or denial of jobs. That doesn't mean that in their homes or amongst their community that they weren't devout, serious, and fervant. It means that sometimes a public mask is a greater good.

Even today, my mother winces when I admit on radio or even here on ES that I'm Jewish beause she thinks it puts me in danger. These people were not unfaithful because they protected their families and themselves from extinction. It's easy as a member of a comfortable majority to look down and declare right and wrong. In practical terms, faith is a private thing. It is a communion between you and God or your family and God. If you believe, God knows your heart. That's enough. A rose by any other name, you know... My devotion to my faith can be seen in how I live my life and in my heart. Hopefully, that's sufficient.

[DRSmith]

I will teach my daughters this: "This is how everyone will know that you are a disciple of Christ...that you love each other." I will teach them that a theology that devalues innocent life so much that you'd rather see people killed than tell a lie to protect them is not a loving theology. I will point them to great men and women in the Bible who loved God and loved their fellow humans more than they loved a rigid, cold hearted philosophy that unthinkingly demands honestly regardless of the consequences.

In short, I will point to you and tell them, "Avoid becoming like this man at all costs."

Okay and will you rip out those pages from the bible that say things you do not like that I quoted?

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 08:00 AM ----------


In Judaism, there is a long history of hiding one's faith that pretty much goes back to biblical times. When you are surrounded by armies who will slaughter you for the crime of faith, faith becomes a more private devotion. In the 1950's most Jews in the United States refused to wear a chai or talk about their faith for fear of ostracization, abuse, or denial of jobs. That doesn't mean that in their homes or amongst their community that they weren't devout, serious, and fervant. It means that sometimes a public mask is a greater good.

Even today, my mother winces when I admit on radio or even here on ES that I'm Jewish beause she thinks it puts me in danger. These people were not unfaithful because they protected their families and themselves from extinction. It's easy as a member of a comfortable majority to look down and declare right and wrong. In practical terms, faith is a private thing. It is a communion between you and God or your family and God. If you believe, God knows your heart. That's enough. A rose by any other name, you know... My devotion to my faith can be seen in how I live my life and in my heart. Hopefully, that's sufficient.

So if I was in Germany in the thirities and forties I should have done what ever it would have took to survive and blend in inlcuding treating Jews as less than human?

By the way did Daniel and his three friends hide their faith?

[mardi gras skin]

Okay and will you rip out those pages from the bible that say things you do not like that I quoted?

nope.


So if I was in Germany in the thirities and forties I should have done what ever it would have took to survive and blend in inlcuding treating Jews as less than human?

If you were in Germany in the thirties and forties you should have been willing to lie to protect the Jews who were being treated as less than human just as this lady in Egypt lied to protect the lives of people who were being treated as less than human.

That might have been the worst analogy you could have used.

Edit: wait...did you edit that out or something? Weird.

[DRSmith]

nope.



If you were in Germany in the thirties and forties you should have been willing to lie to protect the Jews who were being treated as less than human just as this lady in Egypt lied to protect the lives of people who were being treated as less than human.

That might have been the worst analogy you could have used.

Well then you have youself a problem because by in large all I have done is quote Jesus's word and showed examples of men such as Abraham whose faith was not out weighed by love for his son.

In Germany I would have run into more problems not taking up arms and engaging in killing people.

By the way does she not now rish the life of children by saying she only said the things she said to save them? I mean what is to stop these people from now killing her children?

[Burgold]

So if I was in Germany in the thirities and forties I should have done what ever it would have took to survive and blend in inlcuding treating Jews as less than human?

If you were a person of true faith, you wouldn't need to proclaim your Jewishness on the streets. However, if you were a person of true faith you could not act in opposition to your teachings either. In other words, saying "I'm not a Jew" when confronted is Kosher. Hurting or betraying others is not. I can tell you that my Grandmother in Lodz in 1939 (before it was ghettoized) snuck into a line for food that was for Polish "citizens" and not Jews (Polish Jews were already not considered citizens) when asked if she was Jewish she denied it. When asked where her papers were she said there was so little food these days that when she saw the truck she ran to the line and begged not to be sent away because if she left to get her papers there would be nothing left by the time she returned. Eventually, they gave in and gave her some food. As she was walking away, someone from the line shouted that she was indeed a Jew. The Germans fired some shots at her, but she got away. When I asked her why she took this risk she said simply, "I had a family"

She did not betray God nor her family by lying that day.

[DRSmith]

If you were a person of true faith, you wouldn't need to proclaim your Jewishness on the streets. However, if you were a person of true faith you could not act in opposition to your teachings either. In other words, saying "I'm not a Jew" when confronted is Kosher. Hurting or betraying others is not. I can tell you that my Grandmother in Lodz in 1939 (before it was ghettoized) snuck into a line for food that was for Polish "citizens" and not Jews (Polish Jews were already not considered citizens) when asked if she was Jewish she denied it. When asked where her papers were she said there was so little food these days that when she saw the truck she ran to the line and begged not to be sent away because if she left to get her papers there would be nothing left by the time she returned. Eventually, they gave in and gave her some food. As she was walking away, someone from the line shouted that she was indeed a Jew. The Germans fired some shots at her, but she got away. When I asked her why she took this risk she said simply, "I had a family"

She did not betray God nor her family by lying that day.

Question for you should Abraham had said no this my son that you promised this is my family?

By the way would your grandmother have said she was a convert to another faith, this is not a case of someone simply saying I am not this, this person claimed to convert to another faith.

[Burgold]

Impossible to know since admitting you were Jewish was an immediate death sentence. I know that she lied to the Germans, lied to the KGB, and did whatever she could to preserve her family. In my view in none of these circumstances did she betray herself.

As for the Biblical Abraham, I think I would argue there's a very big difference between ignoring or disobeying a direct and indisputable edict from God and lying to a murdering bastard.

[grhqofb5]

Impossible to know since admitting you were Jewish was an immediate death sentence. I know that she lied to the Germans, lied to the KGB, and did whatever she could to preserve her family. In my view in none of these circumstances did she betray herself.

As for the Biblical Abraham, I think I would argue there's a very big difference between ignoring or disobeying a direct and indisputable edict from God and lying to a murdering bastard.

William Wallace said it best: "An oath to a liar is no oath at all."

[DRSmith]

And the end of this 12 people were still killed hundreds injured and now close too two hundred people face military trials. So in the end even if the story she is telling is true it did not mean the saving of lives.

[Bang]

"Rumpelstiltskin is king!"
"No! Aquaman is king!"
"Take that back or I'll kill you!"
"Rahhhr!"
"Wait! what about King Hello Kitty?"
"Shut up, Buddhist freak! Rumplestiltskin!"
"Aquaman!"
"Rumplestiltskin!"
"Aquaman!"
"Raaahhhr!"

This is what I hear.

~Bang

[twa]

God asking something from Abraham is fundamentally different from this situation.

[DRSmith]

Impossible to know since admitting you were Jewish was an immediate death sentence. I know that she lied to the Germans, lied to the KGB, and did whatever she could to preserve her family. In my view in none of these circumstances did she betray herself.

As for the Biblical Abraham, I think I would argue there's a very big difference between ignoring or disobeying a direct and indisputable edict from God and lying to a murdering bastard.

Does not the bible speak many times against lying, we are all human imperfect but if the edict from God is to not lie should we try our very best to not do it?

Daniel and his friends could have denied their faith at any point in time while in Babylon and enjoyed an easier time of it.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 08:32 AM ----------


God asking something from Abraham is fundamentally different from this situation.

How is Abrham being asked to show faith in the face of a difficult request any different than us being asked to show faith even when it presents a hardship to us?

[Bang]

Eh,, i got up in a vinegary mood. It'd be best if i stayed out of here.
Sorry y'all!

~Bang

[DRSmith]

Gone hope your cornflakes taste better

[mardi gras skin]

Well then you have youself a problem...

God specifically told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Did God tell this woman to sacrifice her family? No, he did not. She also wasn't told to leave her homeland. There are a lot of things Abraham was told to do that this lady was not told to do. So what?


And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na

Matthew 10 is talking about loyalties. Is a person willing to be a loyal follower of Christ even though it means division, even a division between kin? That is not the issue at hand. The issue here is, "was this lady disloyal to God when she lied to protect her family?" Unless you believe that loyalty to God is something can be coerced at gunpoint, the answer has to be "no".

So I'll ask you again, Do you believe that a person can be coerced at gunpoint to be loyal and disloyal to God? Can we go around and make or break converts by threatening to kill family members?

[Bang]

No because when one looks at it we realize God was only showing us what he was going to do in regards to his own son.

Sorry DR. i edited while you posted it seems.
My cornflakes tasted kind of uriney today.

peace

~Bang

[Burgold]

That you can't know.

I remember asking my Grandmother why they didn't fight. She said something like... her parents told her that no one believed they would do this. Why would the Germans kill a people who were doing nothing to them and weren't a threat? The Jews were always persecuted and usually if they just stayed quiet it would settle down and life would go on. After all, the Germans were people not monsters. On the other hand, if the Jews resisted there was sure to be reprisals. Better to put up with a little bullying and a little stealing.

It's sort of like airline hijackings. In the 70's and 80's.... really, until 9/11 if you were unlucky enough to be hijacked the terrorists would divert the plane, scare the hell out of you, and go on their merry way. No one dreamed that they would ram the plane into buildings killing themselves and others. That's why they didn't resist on the first two flights. When word was passed on the third flight, the passengers did fight back. The Germans and Al Qaeda broke the rules. They actually were monsters.

[DRSmith]

God specifically told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Did God tell this woman to sacrifice her family? No, he did not. She also wasn't told to leave her homeland. There are a lot of things Abraham was told to do that this lady was not told to do. So what?



Matthew 10 is talking about loyalties. Is a person willing to be a loyal follower of Christ even though it means division, even a division between kin? That is not the issue at hand. The issue here is, "was this lady disloyal to God when she lied to protect her family?" Unless you believe that loyalty to God is something can be coerced at gunpoint, the answer has to be "no".

So I'll ask you again, Do you believe that a person can be coerced at gunpoint to be loyal and disloyal to God? Can we go around and make or break converts by threatening to kill family members?

Really so those words of Jesus to his followers in Matthew then mean nothing?

No the issue at hand was did she have faith God could make it right or did she love one more than the other?

No a person can not be forced they can choose to be disloyal.

You will not make a real convert what you will do is show what a person values the most.

Luke 14 25-33 present this in another way but says the same thing.

If you read the words of Jesus you see that following him was not going to be a life of ease there were going to be hardships and he told people this, because we for the most part live in a part of the world where we do not face such situations as decribed in the bible we often do not give much thought to these passages.

---------- Post added May-10th-2011 at 08:48 AM ----------


That you can't know.

I remember asking my Grandmother why they didn't fight. She said something like... her parents told her that no one believed they would do this. Why would the Germans kill a people who were doing nothing to them and weren't a threat? The Jews were always persecuted and usually if they just stayed quiet it would settle down and life would go on. After all, the Germans were people not monsters. On the other hand, if the Jews resisted there was sure to be reprisals. Better to put up with a little bullying and a little stealing.

It's sort of like airline hijackings. In the 70's and 80's.... really, until 9/11 if you were unlucky enough to be hijacked the terrorists would divert the plane, scare the hell out of you, and go on their merry way. No one dreamed that they would ram the plane into buildings killing themselves and others. That's why they didn't resist on the first two flights. When word was passed on the third flight, the passengers did fight back. The Germans and Al Qaeda broke the rules. They actually were monsters.

It is has always been my belief that if the German people who had claimed the Christian faith had held to it the Jews would have been fine as no one would have done to them what was done.

[Burgold]

Well sure. I think that goes for most religions though. Most religions are great until you get humans involved in them.

I don't blame Christianity for the Holocaust. That'd be insanity. I blame insanity for the Holocaust. Now, the Crusades and the Inquistion, I do think Christianity has a bit to answer for. There has been a ton of bad (and good) done in the name of God. God probably gets really irritated by all the stuff done in his name. For example, God has no interest in Dallas winning the Superbowl. He just doesn't take sides that ways. Anyways, I spotted God sporting the burgandy and gold once and when I asked him about the pagan connection he told me to "Silence mine lips" and began singing "Hail to the Redskins"

[DRSmith]

Well sure. I think that goes for most religions though. Most religions are great until you get humans involved in them.

I don't blame Christianity for the Holocaust. That'd be insanity. I blame insanity for the Holocaust. Now, the Crusades and the Inquistion, I do think Christianity has a bit to answer for. There has been a ton of bad (and good) done in the name of God. God probably gets really irritated by all the stuff done in his name. For example, God has no interest in Dallas winning the Superbowl. He just doesn't take sides that ways. Anyways, I spotted God sporting the burgandy and gold once and when I asked him about the pagan connection he told me to "Silence mine lips" and began singing "Hail to the Redskins"

Well even today I see things that make me shake my head, even this incident both sides were doing harm to each and Jesus told his followers to leave a city if they presecuate you.

We have 10 of thousands of Coptics here in Canada I know we could accomodate millions more.

[mardi gras skin]

Really so those words of Jesus to his followers in Matthew then mean nothing?

Jesus' words don't mean, "the lives of your family members are worthless to me" as you apparently think they do.

[mardi gras skin]

No the issue at hand was did she have faith God could make it right or did she love one more than the other?

No a person can not be forced they can choose to be disloyal.

You will not make a real convert what you will do is show what a person values the most.

So, if I understand you correctly, (a decoder ring would be so helpful) if someone tells me they believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to believe in God, I should not believe them...they aren't really faithful. But if a person tells me the do not believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to reject God, I should believe them...because they aren't really faithful. Did I get that right?

[Destino]

If we want to get biblical perhaps we should stop questioning this woman's faith? If you think in your heart that what she did was wrong, forgive her and pray for her. It is not our place pass these sorts of judgments.

The focus should be on those that kidnapped her and threatened her family. That action on it's own is terrible enough but to then turn around and use this to foment violence by claiming she was being held against her will is unconscionable. People are dying. People are fearing for their safety. God can deal with the worthiness of souls and man must deal with the crimes happening right now.

[twa]

Seems rather simple when ya put it like that.

[DRSmith]

So, if I understand you correctly, (a decoder ring would be so helpful) if someone tells me they believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to believe in God, I should not believe them...they aren't really faithful. But if a person tells me the do not believe in God because I put a gun in their face and told them to reject God, I should believe them...because they aren't really faithful. Did I get that right?

Guns or any weapons are not things that will build real faith, much like making laws.

But the they can test a person's faith a person faced with the threat of death can deny their faith or they can show that their faith in God can not be broken.

There was a reason why Paul used violence before his conversion and there is a reason violence was used on Jesus after other means had been used.

---------- Post added May-11th-2011 at 09:25 AM ----------


If we want to get biblical perhaps we should stop questioning this woman's faith? If you think in your heart that what she did was wrong, forgive her and pray for her. It is not our place pass these sorts of judgments.

The focus should be on those that kidnapped her and threatened her family. That action on it's own is terrible enough but to then turn around and use this to foment violence by claiming she was being held against her will is unconscionable. People are dying. People are fearing for their safety. God can deal with the worthiness of souls and man must deal with the crimes happening right now.

I said one can not be forced to convert and that is what brought about this discussion.

Problem is there is now three different stories about what has happened over there.

And yes those who use violence should be punished.

[Dan T.]

DR you're not doing organized religion any favors by clinging so fiercely to your moronic argument.

[DRSmith]

DR you're not doing organized religion any favors by clinging so fiercely to your moronic argument.

I have backed it up with scripture it may not be popular but the bible is full of examples of people who were losing to lose thier life of lost love ones becuase of being faithful, being faithful is not suppose to be a cake walk. Jesus never said it was going to be, he told his followers it would be rough for them.

[Tweedr01]

Man, I'm split on this, I have no idea what I would do in this situation. It reminds me of Columbine where the shooter asked the girl if she was a Christian, as soon as she said yes, he shot and killed her.