ESPN.com: Fired-up Friday: Redskins D or Cowboys D?

[Califan007]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/27864/fired-up-friday-redskins-d-or-cowboys-d

Apparently this is in the Bubba's Breaking News forum as well :thumbsup:



Hey, we're not talking about the 1985 Bears here, OK? Only one team in the league gave up more points last year than the Cowboys did. Only one team in the league gave up more yards last year than the Redskins did. (In both cases, it was the Broncos, by the way. You wanna talk about bottoming out?) It's safe to say that both Washington and Dallas had higher defensive expectations in 2010, even though the Redskins were switching to a 3-4 and their highest-paid player didn't want to play.

There's work yet to do in both places. The Cowboys need to address safety (and maybe cornerback), and the Redskins need a nose tackle and likely will have to replace Carlos Rogers at cornerback and Rocky McIntosh at inside linebacker. But my debate question for you this Friday is this:

Which defense will have a better 2011 season? The Cowboys' defense or the Redskins' defense?

It's not as crazy a question as you might think. Washington does need the nose tackle, but as of right now I think they're ahead of Dallas in the secondary. And while the mere presence of DeMarcus Ware on the roster gives the Cowboys the edge at linebacker, I'm not sure how far behind the Redskins are at the position overall. Orakpo is an emerging force and London Fletcher and Lorenzo Alexander are strong, steadying presences. If Anthony Spencer plays the way he did in 2009, this is no contest. But at this point that's a big "if," and the linebacker comparison between these two teams could come down to Kerrigan vs. Spencer. If the rookie has a big year and Spencer disappoints again, we might be sitting here this time next year saying the Redskins have the better linebackers.

Might even be saying the Redskins have the better defense.

I'm going to pick the Cowboys in this debate for now, but I think it's close. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to Ryan and his ability to rejuvenate the good veteran personnel they have there, and I'm going to assume they upgrade at safety. I think Bradie James and Keith Brooking still have plenty to offer, and I think Spencer and Mike Jenkins will bounce back.

But if I'm wrong on any of that, I'm not going to be surprised if the Redskins end up with the better defense. The second year is a big one, coaches say, for making strides in the 3-4 defense. The Packers, who just won the Super Bowl in Year Two of Dom Capers' 3-4 scheme, are the best recent example of that. The Redskins don't have as many star-caliber defensive players as Green Bay has (nor do they have a quarterback), so there's no reason for Redskins fans to get their hopes up too high. But I don't think Washington's defense is too far away from challenging for a spot as the best in the NFC East.

[B55Green]

Woah woah, someone from ESPN actually speaking positive of the Redskins?

[Califan007]

But at this point that's a big "if," and the linebacker comparison between these two teams could come down to Kerrigan vs. Spencer. If the rookie has a big year and Spencer disappoints again, we might be sitting here this time next year saying the Redskins have the better linebackers.
Only if we can adequately replace Fletcher...because relying on Fletcher season after season at this stage of his career will come back to bite us in the ass sooner than we'd like.

[Hitman21ST]

Cue everyone saying it was still a bad choice and none of our players fit, etc.

Haslett may have not been a good head coach, but he's just fine as a Defensive Coordinator

---------- Post added June-24th-2011 at 06:08 PM ----------


Only if we can adequately replace Fletcher...because relying on Fletcher season after season at this stage of his career will come back to bite us in the ass sooner than we'd like.

That's what next year's draft is for. That, or Lorenzo Alexander beefing up his resume...

[Califan007]

That's what next year's draft is for. That, or Lorenzo Alexander beefing up his resume...

Are we missing any of our draft picks for 2012?

[Chump Bailey]

I absolutely think our defense will be better than Dallas's.

[bedlamVR]

Are we missing any of our draft picks for 2012?

We actually have an extra 2012 pick already don't we ? For Campbell ?

[Llevron]

We actually have an extra 2012 pick already don't we ? For Campbell ?


Yep. Its a 4th I think.

[Goingforburgundy]

Yep. Its a 4th I think.

Yeah its a 4th

[grego]

with a respectable NT, our D will be good this year. we allowed yards, but not tons of points, on average, last year. this year, with a couple of additions, this D could be very good. the S position along with rak and kerrigan could be scary.

[Hitman21ST]

Are we missing any of our draft picks for 2012?

We're +1 with picks. An extra 4th for Campbell.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Woah woah, someone from ESPN actually speaking positive of the Redskins?

Rest easy brother. The infidel will be publicly hanged for his insolence at half-time of the Cowboys home opener to appease the baying masses.

The Extremely Stupid Peoples Network apologizes henceforth to it's majority Texas viewership.

Hail.

[aszumilo]

Woah woah, someone from ESPN actually speaking positive of the Redskins?

He may have said nice things about the Redskins, but, he still works for ESPN. So, naturally he picks the cowboys to be better.

[Laxpunk2006]

But if I'm wrong on any of that, I'm not going to be surprised if the Redskins end up with the better defense. The second year is a big one, coaches say, for making strides in the 3-4 defense. The Packers, who just won the Super Bowl in Year Two of Dom Capers' 3-4 scheme, are the best recent example of that. The Redskins don't have as many star-caliber defensive players as Green Bay has (nor do they have a quarterback), so there's no reason for Redskins fans to get their hopes up too high. But I don't think Washington's defense is too far away from challenging for a spot as the best in the NFC East.

Green Bay was the #2 ranked defense in the league in their first season in the 3-4 and #1 in rushing. While I agree with his point that a jump is expected the second year this is about the worst example possible. I wish I worked at ESPN.

[ConnSKINS26]

Green Bay was the #2 ranked defense in the league in their first season in the 3-4 and #1 in rushing. While I agree with his point that a jump is expected the second year this is about the worst example possible. I wish I worked at ESPN.

Not really. Because Green Bay invested significant draft resources in the switch the very first year. We didn't, and learned our lesson it seems.

[grego]

if i remember correctly, GB started off a little rough the first half of the season, but turned it around to finish well.

[Laxpunk2006]

Not really. Because Green Bay invested significant draft resources in the switch the very first year. We didn't, and learned our lesson it seems.

How is it not really? The author is implying that defenses generally make a large jump in production from year one to year two in a 3-4 defense because of the added familiarity with the scheme. Green Bay performed extremely well in their first season making it nearly impossible to greatly increase their production in year two.

Green Bay allowed nearly 30 yards more per game in 2010 than 2009. Their points per game dropped significantly from 18 to 15 but I stand by my point that Green Bay isn't a very good example.

When discussing a team that was terrible in year one and suggesting they could make a leap in year two it would be much more applicable to use a team that made a similar leap as an example. Green Bay improved, and quite well considering how good they already were but it wasn't a worst to first or anywhere close type situation. They went from great to greater.

[ConnSKINS26]

How is it not really? The author is implying that defenses generally make a large jump in production from year one to year two in a 3-4 defense because of the added familiarity with the scheme. Green Bay performed extremely well in their first season making it nearly impossible to greatly increase their production in year two.

Green Bay allowed nearly 30 yards more per game in 2010 than 2009. Their points per game dropped significantly from 18 to 15 but I stand by my point that Green Bay isn't a very good example.

When discussing a team that was terrible in year one and suggesting they could make a leap in year two it would be much more applicable to use a team that made a similar leap as an example. Green Bay improved, and quite well considering how good they already were but it wasn't a worst to first or anywhere close type situation. They went from great to greater.

I didn't mean to say that the author made the best comparison, or even a good one. I misunderstood your post a bit, and thought that you were implying something else. My bad.

My point does stand that you can't really compare GB's first year in the 3-4 to ours. Because they invested in it considerably right from the get-go, and we didn't. The only comparison you can make is that we were stupid not to do what they originally did. Hopefully that's turned around.

[Laxpunk2006]

I didn't mean to say that the author made the best comparison, or even a good one. I misunderstood your post a bit, and thought that you were implying something else. My bad.

My point does stand that you can't really compare GB's first year in the 3-4 to ours. Because they invested in it considerably right from the get-go, and we didn't. The only comparison you can make is that we were stupid not to do what they originally did. Hopefully that's turned around.

No worries it sounds like we agree and just misunderstood each other. As you've explained Green Bay made the switch the right way. They didn't try to throw a bunch of 4-3 players into a 3-4 but instead went out and spent significant resources on the most important parts (NT and OLB) while already having the second most important (CB and S) on the roster. Even a lot of their previous 4-3 guys fit the scheme pretty well. Outside of Orakpo and possibly Jarmon if he earns a role this year we didn't really have that.

[ConnSKINS26]

No worries it sounds like we agree and just misunderstood each other. As you've explained Green Bay made the switch the right way. They didn't try to throw a bunch of 4-3 players into a 3-4 but instead went out and spent significant resources on the most important parts (NT and OLB) while already having the second most important (CB and S) on the roster. Even a lot of their previous 4-3 guys fit the scheme pretty well. Outside of Orakpo and possibly Jarmon if he earns a role this year we didn't really have that.

Good points, except for one thing I have to disagree with.

I think Jarmon is one of the biggest losers in this switch. What a waste of a 3rd round pick. He's a prototypical 4-3 LE. He was tailor-made to take over for Phillip Daniels. Now we've got him losing weight, putting on weight, trying to fit him in somewhere without getting him comfortable anywhere. Not to mention that weight fluctuation and the different weight training, etc. that go along with that are terrible for his healing leg.

In the first year, Shanahan/Allen/Haslett did a few things right in terms of the 3-4, and that's it. Here they are:

1. Picking a scheme that will showcase your best, young defensive talent: Orakpo and Landry.

2. Moving Landry back to SS and letting him do what he does best. He IS Polamalu in this defense, with less coverage skills. Which might not even be the case, since the Steelers can scheme to cover up any deficiencies in Troy's game.

3. Trading for Adam Carriker. Such a great value move, and he fits the defense.

[Hitman21ST]

Good points, except for one thing I have to disagree with.

I think Jarmon is one of the biggest losers in this switch. What a waste of a 3rd round pick. He's a prototypical 4-3 LE. He was tailor-made to take over for Phillip Daniels. Now we've got him losing weight, putting on weight, trying to fit him in somewhere without getting him comfortable anywhere. Not to mention that weight fluctuation and the different weight training, etc. that go along with that are terrible for his healing leg.

In the first year, Shanahan/Allen/Haslett did a few things right in terms of the 3-4, and that's it. Here they are:

1. Picking a scheme that will showcase your best, young defensive talent: Orakpo and Landry.

2. Moving Landry back to SS and letting him do what he does best. He IS Polamalu in this defense, with less coverage skills. Which might not even be the case, since the Steelers can scheme to cover up any deficiencies in Troy's game.

3. Trading for Adam Carriker. Such a great value move, and he fits the defense.

Year two is starting off well:

1. Signing Atogwe

2. Drafting a pass rusher opposite Orakpo

3. Drafting a DE/NT and pure NT (am I the only one thinking Jenkins might turn out to be similar to Haloti Ngata?)

4. Moving Lorenzo Alexander to ILB (90% sure thing on that). He's a much better fit at ILB in our defense. Stout against the run, and can take on guards, centers, and tackles.

[ConnSKINS26]

Year two is starting off well:

1. Signing Atogwe

2. Drafting a pass rusher opposite Orakpo

3. Drafting a DE/NT and pure NT (am I the only one thinking Jenkins might turn out to be similar to Haloti Ngata?)

4. Moving Lorenzo Alexander to ILB (90% sure thing on that). He's a much better fit at ILB in our defense. Stout against the run, and can take on guards, centers, and tackles.

Only thing I'd change is adding Kerrigan at OLB. *Edit: somehow missed it in your post originally. Oops. But if he works out, Jenkins at DE/NT could be just as important. I know what you mean, I see him moving around a lot on the DL.

Then I'd add the addition of Nield in the 7th. I know, crazy. But I've got a good feeling about this guy. Even having him rotate in on running downs to give Bryant and Jenkins a breather will be great to see. But I think he can grow to be a legit NT.

[Hitman21ST]

Only thing I'd change is adding Kerrigan at OLB. But if he works out, Jenkins at DE/NT could be just as important. I know what you mean, I see him moving around a lot on the DL.

Then I'd add the addition of Nield in the 7th. I know, crazy. But I've got a good feeling about this guy. Even having him rotate in on running downs to give Bryant and Jenkins a breather will be great to see. But I think he can grow to be a legit NT.

Kerrigan fulfills number 2, Nield fulfills the "pure NT" part of number 3.

One step ahead of you ;)

[ConnSKINS26]

Kerrigan fulfills number 2, Nield fulfills the "pure NT" part of number 3.

One step ahead of you ;)

Yeah, I didn't read carefully enough haha. My contacts are drying out on me, its not my fault! :ols:

[SpacePenguin]

4. Moving Lorenzo Alexander to ILB (90% sure thing on that). He's a much better fit at ILB in our defense. Stout against the run, and can take on guards, centers, and tackles.


I'm happy someone else sees this. Lorenzo is great against the run but just doesn't have the speed or agility to play on the outside. He's a perfect fit as the runstop MLB that comes out in nickel sets. Riley and Henson can provide depth to he and Fletcher, hopefully.

I agree with the rest of your points, and also anything Connskins posts normally, but Lorenzo being a success at MLB seems to be the surest bet of all.. He's everything Rocky wasn't, and should have been playing there all along.

I'm sure we all would have loved to see Chris Wilson or Rob Jackson opposite Orakpo last year, anyways.

[Hitman21ST]

Yeah, I didn't read carefully enough haha. My contacts are drying out on me, its not my fault! :ols:

No glasses or contact moisturizer?

---------- Post added June-25th-2011 at 01:09 AM ----------


I'm happy someone else sees this. Lorenzo is great against the run but just doesn't have the speed or agility to play on the outside. He's a perfect fit as the runstop MLB that comes out in nickel sets. Riley and Henson can provide depth to he and Fletcher, hopefully.

I agree with the rest of your points, and of course anything Connskins posts normally, but Lorenzo being a success at MLB seems to be the surest bet of all.. He's everything Rocky wasn't, and should have been playing there all along.

I'm sure we all would have loved to see Chris Wilson or Rob Jackson outside more, anyways.

I think that Riley might start the season out next to Fletch, but it was said in another thread that we need to have a quality backup for 59 to give him a spell or learn the reins once he retires. He's been a key component, but unfortunately we can't count on him forever. Zo starts the season as a backup to learn the ins and outs of ILB, but might earn himself a starting job by midseason.

[ConnSKINS26]

No glasses or contact moisturizer?

Both. But also lots of laziness. Lots. I find that yawning creates enough tears/moisture in your eyes to prolong the inevitable :ols:

Yes, that is indeed a recipe for ghetto late-night eye drops. Just yawn.

---------- Post added June-25th-2011 at 01:11 AM ----------


I agree with the rest of your points, and of course anything Connskins posts normally

Ah man...I'm not controversial enough, I'm gonna have to start posting some wacky things to throw you off! Haha. I have noticed that since you joined, we've done lots of agreeing.

[Hitman21ST]

Both. But also lots of laziness. Lots. I find that yawning creates enough tears/moisture in your eyes to prolong the inevitable :ols:

Yes, that is indeed a recipe for ghetto late-night eye drops. Just yawn.

:ols: I like that. Lucky for me I don't need to worry about that. Pilot's eyes

[SpacePenguin]

Blasphemy! London Fletcher is immortal!

But yeah, I was worried about Fletcher a few years ago...but he's so durable and has such a work ethic that we, as fans, tend to take him for granted. I know his body won't hold out much longer, but year after year....He keeps playing at a high level. Eventually the concerns get muted.

I wouldn't count out Henson either, ever since that preseason game I've been rooting for the guy. Talk about effort.....he was a madman that day.

I'm fine with Henson, Riley, or LA winning the job in camp, I just think Lorenzo, even if he is changing positions, has enough experience to beat out Henson or RIley at ILB. Oh well, competition should be a good one.

[ConnSKINS26]

:ols: I like that. Lucky for me I don't need to worry about that. Pilot's eyes

Lucky bastard. I was actually told in high school by my guidance counselor, after taking the ASVAB, that if I wanted to go the military route I had scored high enough to qualify to be some type of pilot. Ironically, I have horrendous eyesight.

---------- Post added June-25th-2011 at 01:24 AM ----------

SP, there are going to be some GREAT position battles in camp this year. Those tweet updates from training camp are going to be 10x more addicting than normal.

We've got the various competitions going on at WR, RB, ILB, CB (most likely), and I'm sure much of the OL and most likely NT and DE, too.

Man. Especially the flashy skill position battles are going to be crazy to monitor in camp and during preseason. Match that up with the WR vs. CB 1-on-1 drills? We'll all be knee-deep in man-crushes by mid-July. I've already developed preliminary bouts of mancrush-itis on Hankerson and Paul.

[Hitman21ST]

Lucky bastard. I was actually told in high school by my guidance counselor, after taking the ASVAB, that if I wanted to go the military route I had scored high enough to qualify to be some type of pilot. Ironically, I have horrendous eyesight.

---------- Post added June-25th-2011 at 01:24 AM ----------

SP, there are going to be some GREAT position battles in camp this year. Those tweet updates from training camp are going to be 10x more addicting than normal.

We've got the various competitions going on at WR, RB, ILB, CB (most likely), and I'm sure much of the OL and most likely NT and DE, too.

Man. Especially the flashy skill position battles are going to be crazy to monitor in camp and during preseason. Match that up with the WR vs. CB 1-on-1 drills? We'll all be knee-deep in man-crushes by mid-July. I've already developed preliminary bouts of mancrush-itis on Hankerson and Paul.

Coulda gone NFO (backseater - doesn't need the perfect eyesight)...

Me? My mancrushes are Hankerson, Paul, Kerrigan, and Gomes, with Helu coming awfully close

[SpacePenguin]

---------- Post added June-25th-2011 at 01:24 AM ----------

[/COLOR]SP, there are going to be some GREAT position battles in camp this year. Those tweet updates from training camp are going to be 10x more addicting than normal.

We've got the various competitions going on at WR, RB, ILB, CB (most likely), and I'm sure much of the OL and most likely NT and DE, too.

Man. Especially the flashy skill position battles are going to be crazy to monitor in camp and during preseason. Match that up with the WR vs. CB 1-on-1 drills? We'll all be knee-deep in man-crushes by mid-July. I've already developed preliminary bouts of mancrush-itis on Hankerson and Paul.

They were already addictive enough, and while i share your enthusiasm for the long overdue rebuild, we should remember what the goal is when growing pains strike this upcoming season. I'm positive you understand this, but many others will scream Superbowl just because we have more than one good WR.

I like the HB and WR competitions, but my Husker fan friend is not fond of Paul at all. I think Niles will be more of a special teams guy for at least his rookie year. I like Gomes the best out of all the Nebraska players. The kid has a nose for the ball and plays smart.

If James Davis or Brandon Banks gets cut, I'm going to be angry.

[ConnSKINS26]

Didn't know that!

And yeah, I'm sure Kerrigan will get me soon enough. Strangely, I hated the Gomes pick when we made it, but he's grown on me. Very underrated guy, it seems, and I can't wait to see him laying the wood in preseason. He, LL, and Barnes in the defensive backfield someday should make WR's scared.

As for Helu, I really, really had my heart set on Kendall Hunter. And when we traded up to the top of the 4th round, I just knew that's who we were taking. Of course, Helu's name was called instead, and Hunter went not long after to SF. Helu's growing on me, and I'll happily be wrong, but he wasn't a guy I was high on before the draft at all. One big preseason run will probably change that, though. That's just the nature of a fan starved for a competent offense.

---------- Post added June-25th-2011 at 01:47 AM ----------


They were already addictive enough, and while i share your enthusiasm for the long overdue rebuild, we should remember what the goal is when growing pains strike this upcoming season. I'm positive you understand this, but many others will scream Superbowl just because we have more than one good WR.

I like the HB and WR competitions, but my Husker fan friend is not fond of Paul at all. I think Niles will be more of a special teams guy for at least his rookie year.

If James Davis or Brandon Banks gets cut, I'm going to be angry.

I'm with you there. I took quite an interest in Davis when we picked him up mid-season, and he had a couple decent runs in my first live NFL game, @ Giants. A quiet little bright spot on a miserable afternoon, ugh. Also love Banks, though I really could see him getting cut in favor of one of the rookies, if not this year, then next. Not going to bring that into this thread though, as I've gotten into lengthy arguments in other threads about it in the past month or three. Maybe one of the few things we disagree on, though I'll repeat that I love the little guy too as a returner. Pure electricity.

And trust me when I say that I'm on board with the rebuild, even if it means losing almost every week. There's even that little part of me that realizes that painfully hitting rock bottom may be what this team needs, in the form of Luck. Maybe we could rise, reborn, from the ashes then with a franchise QB.

But don't misunderstand me. I'm not in any way, shape, or form on the "Suck for Luck" bandwagon. I will root for us till I can't yell anymore every Sunday, and vent/celebrate on here every week no matter what happens. There's just that small part of me that realizes WHAT rebuilding really entails, and the messy details that people don't like to think about: the actual losing that comes along with it, and the growing pains.

I just hope to see lots of young guys on the field this year. I could watch a 2-14 season, as long as there were young guys, future core Redskins, out there losing while learning on the job. I'd die inside every Sunday, but I'd know it was for the betterment of the future. As long as Snyder wouldn't get all excited and fire Shanahan before his contract's up. Which I couldn't see happening, with the money he's making. But who knows. Either way, I'm actually in the minority that objectively thinks we're going 7-9/8-8 this year, with someone like Grossman at QB.

Oh, and on Paul: If I'm to understand it correctly, he was VERY underutilized in college, but did show lapses in concentration. Of course, a low number of targets every week can do that. Some guys need to get in the rhythm, like Portis used to need to do with carries. We'll see what the competitive fire in him shows off this preseason.

[SKIN4WAHOOZ]

Not really. Because Green Bay invested significant draft resources in the switch the very first year. We didn't, and learned our lesson it seems.


HUH?? I think you missed his point. Since GB was in the top 3 of D's in year one of the 3-4, their success last year, in year two, was not that significant.

The writer made it seem as if GB's 3-4 D was in the bottom half in year one and improved all the way to #2 D last year. That was not that case. Therefore....bad example!!

[Laxpunk2006]

Good points, except for one thing I have to disagree with.

I think Jarmon is one of the biggest losers in this switch. What a waste of a 3rd round pick. He's a prototypical 4-3 LE. He was tailor-made to take over for Phillip Daniels. Now we've got him losing weight, putting on weight, trying to fit him in somewhere without getting him comfortable anywhere. Not to mention that weight fluctuation and the different weight training, etc. that go along with that are terrible for his healing leg.


I think Jarmon missed out because of the flip flopping of positions. He has a big enough frame that I think he could put on the weight and be an undersized 3-4 DE. Probably not a full time starter but maybe a guy that comes in on third downs as a rusher. Agreed that he's a prototypical 4-3 LE. I was really excited for him in that role and between the injury and the coaches not settling on a position for him its going to be difficult for him to make a career for himself here. He may be best off leaving for a 4-3 team where he could potentially compete for a bigger role.

[alwaysaskin]

I really hope Neld can become a solid contributor at NT, that's my position of concern, as well as finding a CB to replace stone hands. Hopefully we sign Ike Taylor at CB and our 3-4 might be pretty good

[Hitman21ST]

I really hope Neld can become a solid contributor at NT, that's my position of concern, as well as finding a CB to replace stone hands. Hopefully we sign Ike Taylor at CB and our 3-4 might be pretty good

Nield will definitely get some playing time. As weird as it is to say this, the guy taken next to last in the NFL draft is one of the people most assured of a job.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

I know I rather have Rob Ryan over Haslett. I believe Ryan will do wonders for the Cowgirls defense