NFL.com: TE Rankings (Kirwan says Cooley on the decline)

[rockfan7224]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8209ba73/article/familiar-faces-top-te-rankings-but-young-crop-making-noise



As I have done with the other position rankings, the players will be in groups of five and in alphabetical order inside each group. Each player listed either has an (^) for guys on the rise, (>) for players maintaining their status or (v) for those on the decline.

Group A

Dallas Clark (http://www.nfl.com/players/dallasclark/profile?id=CLA236596), Colts (>): It's true that playing with Peyton Manning (http://www.nfl.com/players/peytonmanning/profile?id=MAN515097) is a big plus, but Clark is a very capable receiver with 137 receptions and 13 touchdowns over the last two seasons despite missing 10 games with a wrist injury last year.
Vernon Davis (http://www.nfl.com/players/vernondavis/profile?id=DAV785142), 49ers (^): An emerging star, the sky is the limit for him. He has 134 receptions and 20 touchdowns over the last two years with a questionable situation at quarterback. He's also an underrated blocker.
Antonio Gates (http://www.nfl.com/players/antoniogates/profile?id=GAT194627), Chargers (>): Gates is the gold standard for the athletic tight end. He has been to seven straight Pro Bowls. Injuries are the only thing that kept him from having a career year in 2010.
Marcedes Lewis (http://www.nfl.com/players/marcedeslewis/profile?id=LEW492053), Jaguars (^): Lewis took a quantum leap in his career last year and was rewarded with his first Pro Bowl nod after scoring 10 touchdowns, which was tied for tops among tight ends. He has excellent blocking skills to complement his skills as a receiver.
Jason Witten (http://www.nfl.com/players/jasonwitten/profile?id=WIT559021), Cowboys (>): A perennial Pro Bowl selection, Witten was the most targeted tight end last season. He also had more first-down grabs than any other tight end with 49. Over the past two seasons, his 188 receptions are the most at the position.

Group B

Chris Cooley (http://www.nfl.com/players/chriscooley/profile?id=COO376642), Redskins (v): Cooley was the second-most targeted tight end in 2010 and finished with 77 receptions, including 40 that went for first downs. Cooley is a two-time Pro Bowl selection and has 106 receptions over the past two seasons, but just five touchdowns.
Tony Gonzalez (http://www.nfl.com/player/tonygonzalez/2500835/profile), Falcons (v): A future Hall of Famer, still a go-to guy with 153 receptions and 12 touchdowns over the last two years. While he was the third-most targeted tight end a year ago, his 9.4 yards per catch was the lowest among the top 15 tight ends.
Heath Miller, Steelers (>): Pittsburgh's offense doesn't feature the tight end, which is why Miller was the 20th-most targeted player at the position in 2010. Still, he has managed 118 receptions and eight touchdowns since 2009 and is a great blocker.
Zach Miller (http://www.nfl.com/player/zachmiller/2507170/profile), Raiders (>): A potential free agent when the new CBA is resolved, Miller could be a hot item if he hits the market. He was the ninth-most targeted tight end in 2010 and managed 60 receptions and five touchdowns.
Kellen Winslow (http://www.nfl.com/player/kellenwinslow/2506107/profile), Bucs (>): If he could ever stay healthy enough to play 16 games, Winslow's numbers would be off the charts. Still, his 143 receptions rank third among tight ends over the last two seasons.


I definitely don't agree, but an interesting read nonetheless. He organizes them from A to E (A being the top), his full list is on the link

[Skinzfever2010]

When you have no receivers and hes the only option for opposing Ds to scheme against Cooley becomes irrelevant. He would be a great 3rd option on a good offensive team like Dallas Clark. However, due to the lack of talent @ WR he has been beat up pretty badly the last few years.

Fred Davis is better than Chris Cooley right now

[Califan007]

Fred Davis is better than Chris Cooley right now

Based on what, exactly?

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

When you have no receivers and hes the only option for opposing Ds to scheme against Cooley becomes irrelevant. He would be a great 3rd option on a good offensive team like Dallas Clark. However, due to the lack of talent @ WR he has been beat up pretty badly the last few years.

Fred Davis is better than Chris Cooley right now

I'm not so sure Fred is a "better" player than Chris right now.

But I would say that Fred is more "physically" gifted.


Either way, we're going to have to make a decision between the two.

[NewCliche21]

When Davis was out there, he was pretty unstoppable. I love me some Cooley, but I don't see a drop in production when Sleepy takes over.

[Califan007]

When Davis was out there, he was pretty unstoppable. I love me some Cooley, but I don't see a drop in production when Sleepy takes over.
If by "unstoppable" you mean when he was out there he was hard to tackle, then ok. But I'd rather he be "unstoppable" in terms of can't stop him from making important catches. I haven't really seen that with any consistency yet. I saw that from Cooley his rookie season.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

If by "unstoppable" you mean when he was out there he was hard to tackle, then ok. But I'd rather he be "unstoppable" in terms of can't stop him from making important catches. I haven't really seen that with any consistency yet. I saw that from Cooley his rookie season.

When Fred was given a chance to start, I saw the same consistency from him as well. :2cents:

[NewCliche21]

If by "unstoppable" you mean when he was out there he was hard to tackle, then ok. But I'd rather he be "unstoppable" in terms of can't stop him from making important catches. I haven't really seen that with any consistency yet. I saw that from Cooley his rookie season.

When Cooley went down after the Monday night game in October 2009, Davis came in with a crap coach/offensive line/quarterback/other receivers and still got five touchdowns to finish the year. That year he had 48 receptions, a 10.6 average, and almost two-thirds of his receptions were for first downs.

Yeah, I wouldn't be slitting my wrists over 86.

[Hitman21ST]

When Cooley went down after the Monday night game in October 2009, Davis came in with a crap coach/offensive line/quarterback/other receivers and still got five touchdowns to finish the year. That year he had 48 receptions, a 10.6 average, and almost two-thirds of his receptions were for first downs.

Yeah, I wouldn't be slitting my wrists over 86.

The big question is, if we trade Cooley, how fast does that "decline" change to "getting better"?

[sideshow24]

If Cooley is in decline then so is Dallas Clark. They are pretty much the same player, but Cooley is much more fun.

[Crazy Levi]

Cooley didn't look too good last year. He had some costly drops and didn't look too sharp. Maybe this year will be different.

[Califan007]

When Cooley went down after the Monday night game in October 2009, Davis came in with a crap coach/offensive line/quarterback/other receivers and still got five touchdowns to finish the year. That year he had 48 receptions, a 10.6 average, and almost two-thirds of his receptions were for first downs.

Yeah, I wouldn't be slitting my wrists over 86.
Ironic that Davis' production just happened to coincide with Zorn being stripped of playcalling and the "Bingo Caller" arriving in D.C., huh lol...Everyone's production went up on offense after the BC arrived...even Campbell's to a significant degree. The anemic rushing game started scoring TDs after having scored a grand total of one TD all season prior. The red zone offense improved dramatically as well. So, yeah, I'm not chalking up that Davis performance simply to him being "unstoppable". He, like most everyone else on offense, benefited noticeably from the Bingo Caller's presence.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I agree with everything in this article. Cooley is fun, but his lack of touchdowns leaves a lot to be desired. The guy needs to step up his redzone production. Only target/no QB/horrible line be damned, Davis had no problem producing when he played.

The real question is "Even if Cooley isn't on the decline, other teams seem to think he is. When is his value at the highest point, and will it ever go back up?" If you can get a 3rd for Cooley now, or sit around as Cooley has decently productive years and Davis sits the rest of his rookie contract on the bench, what's the point?

And if Cooley is worth a 3rd and Davis somewhere between a 3rd and a 4th, you keep Davis, because you used a 2nd on him and thus don't "lose" out on him. He seems well on his way to living up to 2nd round potential.

[Califan007]

The real question is "Even if Cooley isn't on the decline, other teams seem to think he is.."
Where did you get that from?...

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Where did you get that from?...

Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet, I didn't mean for that to sound so definitive. I was more thinking that if articles like these keep coming out, it will skew his perception. I don't think it matters why he isn't producing, if he doesn't produce then teams won't want him. Any GM will look at his combined 6 touchdowns in the last three years and see it as a red flag. This is after four seasons in which he posted 6,7,6, and 8 touchdowns before that.

I personally don't think he is on the decline in terms of talent; I think the guy is just as physically gifted as he ever was. But you can't argue with his redzone production dropping, quite drastically actually, over the past three years. It's unfortunate that his yardage keeps going up and his touchdowns down, because it makes people ask questions about his redzone ability.

Not long ago Shockey and Winslow were going for 2nd rounders plus. Is Cooley going to net a 2nd rounder, from anyone? He doesn't have the raw talent and potential of these guys, though it wouldn't matter if he were scoring 8 TDs a season still. Unfortunately, he isn't. So objectively, from the fans of opposing teams, what is he worth?

What would a team that needs a TE give up for Cooley? The problem with the TE position is that you can find studs in the 3-4 round, so why would you give up a 2nd for a guy with low TD numbers?

[greenspandan]

i do not see any evidence that cooley is in decline. they cite the lack of touchdowns, but ignore the fact that he still has been catching an enormous number of balls and converting tons of first downs:

he was 2nd in the entire NFL last year in receptions for a tight end, and 3rd in first downs.

it's true he didn't find the end zone, but NOBODY on this team did, and that's purely a product of our team being terrible all over the place, particularly along the o-line, and in redzone playcalling.

[DC9]

Be careful saying Cooley is on the decline around these parts. You're liable to get beat up in the parking lot. I've said he should be traded since he broke his leg.... I mean.... his "ankle."

[Vilandil Tasardur]

i do not see any evidence that cooley is in decline. they cite the lack of touchdowns, but ignore the fact that he still has been catching an enormous number of balls and converting tons of first downs:

he was 2nd in the entire NFL last year in receptions for a tight end, and 3rd in first downs.

it's true he didn't find the end zone, but NOBODY on this team did, and that's purely a product of our team being terrible all over the place, particularly along the o-line, and in redzone playcalling.
I don't disagree with you. I think Cooley still has all the skills and ability. But lets say the offense sucks again next year, which is more than possible. Lets say Cooley catches 2-3 TDs again. Then what? Then you've got a 29 year old tight end going into his ninth season who hasn't had a big season in half of his career. One more bad season, or God forbid, one more injured season, and Cooley's value is shot. Right now he at least can get us something.

[NewCliche21]

The big question is, if we trade Cooley, how fast does that "decline" change to "getting better"?

I don't think that we should trade Cooley in the least. I'm more happy that we have two excellent tight ends.


Ironic that Davis' production just happened to coincide with Zorn being stripped of playcalling and the "Bingo Caller" arriving in D.C., huh lol...Everyone's production went up on offense after the BC arrived...even Campbell's to a significant degree. The anemic rushing game started scoring TDs after having scored a grand total of one TD all season prior. The red zone offense improved dramatically as well. So, yeah, I'm not chalking up that Davis performance simply to him being "unstoppable". He, like most everyone else on offense, benefited noticeably from the Bingo Caller's presence.

We're really attributing anything to Lewis? You don't think that's a bit of revisionist history?

"Unstoppable" was a bad word choice, but if I had to pick between Cooley and Davis, I can't see a bad option.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I don't think that we should trade Cooley in the least. I'm more happy that we have two excellent tight ends.



You mean we have two excellent tight ends for ONE more season.:2cents:

[DA SKINS!]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm! And btw, I agree. Hopefully this time I don't get attacked lol.

[The Tris]

I'm more happy that we have two excellent tight ends.

I'd be happier if we actually utilized two excellent TEs.

[scruffylookin]

I'm still waiting on the supposed "awsomeness" of having two pass catching tight ends on this team. I'm still waiting for the fear to be instilled in opposing defenses who vainly must try to cover two "stud" tight ends in the redzone. Fact is Davis looked pretty damn good only after Cooley went out in 2009.

Said it back when Davis was drafted and whenever the subject comes up, if we are keeping Davis then Cooley should be traded. Keeping both, especially on a team as devoid of talent as this, and not trading one for help elsewhere is inexcusable.

[Botched]

Dallas Clark is overrated as usual.

[JustAfan47]

I don't see how he is on the decline. Are O was nothing special in the redzone last year. Cooleys yrds haven't dropped off the charts.

[Califan007]

Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet, I didn't mean for that to sound so definitive. I was more thinking that if articles like these keep coming out, it will skew his perception. I don't think it matters why he isn't producing, if he doesn't produce then teams won't want him. Any GM will look at his combined 6 touchdowns in the last three years and see it as a red flag. This is after four seasons in which he posted 6,7,6, and 8 touchdowns before that.
I doubt there's a GM in the league that would be scared away from Cooley due to his TD totals. They don't look at Cooley in a vacuum, and I'm positive those same GMs have an opinion about the Skins' offense and team as a whole to go along with their assessments of individual players.




What would a team that needs a TE give up for Cooley? The problem with the TE position is that you can find studs in the 3-4 round, so why would you give up a 2nd for a guy with low TD numbers?

Would Cooley garner a 2nd round draft pick or higher? Eh, doubt it but who knows. 6 of the top 10 TEs last season were drafted in the 1st round. 9 of the top 10 TEs last year were drafted in the first 3 round. So GMs waiting until the 4th round in hopes of getting a "stud" TE might find themselves still looking for one a few years later. Besides, wouldn't this argument indicate that we should trade Davis, since by this line of thinking he would garner a higher draft pick? lol...We can easily survive several more seasons with Cooley, and use that higher draft pick from Davis to keep rebuilding.

And I don't care what fans of opposing teams think, though lol...

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 08:31 AM ----------


We're really attributing anything to Lewis? You don't think that's a bit of revisionist history?

"Unstoppable" was a bad word choice, but if I had to pick between Cooley and Davis, I can't see a bad option.
Nothing revisionist about it, since there was a HUGE debate at the time as to if Lewis' arrival helped the offense.;.because the offense definitely did improve. Hell, they were having debates about it on NFL Network and in the media...

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I still believe we should have been looking to trade Cooley over the past 2 off-seasons. What Davis showed at the end of 2009 is MORE than enough for me to be comfortable allowing him to take over for Cooley as the starting TE. I personally believe he can fill in just as well, if not better. However, even if you believe he couldn't do quite as well...whatever compensation we'd have gotten for Cooley and applied to improving another position would have more than made up for the loss of #47.

My equation all along has been:

Davis + Upgrade somewhere else > Cooley

[JustAfan47]

i do not see any evidence that cooley is in decline. they cite the lack of touchdowns, but ignore the fact that he still has been catching an enormous number of balls and converting tons of first downs:

he was 2nd in the entire NFL last year in receptions for a tight end, and 3rd in first downs.

it's true he didn't find the end zone, but NOBODY on this team did, and that's purely a product of our team being terrible all over the place, particularly along the o-line, and in redzone playcalling.

Amen to that. Nice post brother

[Califan007]

I still believe we should have been looking to trade Cooley over the past 2 off-seasons. What Davis showed at the end of 2009 is MORE than enough for me to be comfortable allowing him to take over for Cooley as the starting TE. I personally believe he can fill in just as well, if not better. However, even if you believe he couldn't do quite as well...whatever compensation we'd have gotten for Cooley and applied to improving another position would have more than made up for the loss of #47.

My equation all along has been:

Davis + Upgrade somewhere else > Cooley

What about Cooley + even better upgrade(s) > Davis?

[Coach Janky Spanky]

Isn't now a good time to trade Cooley? I mean, I love the guy....but it seems like the really good organizations are able to tell when a guy is on the decline and trade him for a couple picks just before anyone else sees he's declining. Given that we have Fred Davis, and still have multiple holes that need addressing, I'd be OK with doing something as seemingly drastic as this.

[GameWinner]

What no one has yet brought up is the fact that Cooley is a much better and experience blocker than Davis. That was Davis' biggest knock coming out, he wasn't a complete player yet. Other than that, I'd say they are probably even receiving wise. Lets see: In 2009, Cooley played and started 7 games: he had 29 catches 332 yards 11.4 yards/reception and 2 TDs.
Fred, that same season, played in 16 games with 10 starts and had: 48 receptions 509 yards for 10.6 yd/rec and 6 TD.
So Cooley actually averaged more YPC, he was slacking on TDs, but that could be attributed to the horrible Zorn playcalling. I say they're even receiving, or Cooley is better with his experience, while he is also a better blocker.

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 11:41 AM ----------

And remember, Devin Thomas had flashes that year as well and we all know how that turned out

[Audible_Red40]

I am a huge fan of the peanut butter, ham and mustard sandwich. No one does it like he does and it's certainly not on the decline!!!

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I'm still waiting on the supposed "awsomeness" of having two pass catching tight ends on this team. I'm still waiting for the fear to be instilled in opposing defenses who vainly must try to cover two "stud" tight ends in the redzone. Fact is Davis looked pretty damn good only after Cooley went out in 2009.

Said it back when Davis was drafted and whenever the subject comes up, if we are keeping Davis then Cooley should be traded. Keeping both, especially on a team as devoid of talent as this, and not trading one for help elsewhere is inexcusable.
This.

[Califan007]

Isn't now a good time to trade Cooley? I mean, I love the guy....but it seems like the really good organizations are able to tell when a guy is on the decline and trade him for a couple picks just before anyone else sees he's declining. Given that we have Fred Davis, and still have multiple holes that need addressing, I'd be OK with doing something as seemingly drastic as this.
The "really good organizations" rarely trade away Pro Bowl players who are still in their 20's unless they are able to get something really nice in return, the player is a locker room cancer or is having tension with the head coach, or the decline is noticeable and steep due to injury.

[NewCliche21]

The big question is, if we trade Cooley, how fast does that "decline" change to "getting better"?


You mean we have two excellent tight ends for ONE more season.:2cents:


What no one has yet brought up is the fact that Cooley is a much better and experience blocker than Davis. That was Davis' biggest knock coming out, he wasn't a complete player yet. Other than that, I'd say they are probably even receiving wise. Lets see: In 2009, Cooley played and started 7 games: he had 29 catches 332 yards 11.4 yards/reception and 2 TDs.
Fred, that same season, played in 16 games with 10 starts and had: 48 receptions 509 yards for 10.6 yd/rec and 6 TD.
So Cooley actually averaged more YPC, he was slacking on TDs, but that could be attributed to the horrible Zorn playcalling. I say they're even receiving, or Cooley is better with his experience, while he is also a better blocker.

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 11:41 AM ----------

And remember, Devin Thomas had flashes that year as well and we all know how that turned out

Uh, you kind of negated your entire post with that last sentence. Davis had a hell of a year when he became starter. Thomas never did anything.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I don't think Davis garners even better upgrades. You think GMs would give more for Davis then for Cooley? If so, do it! I don't hate Cooley, I want the upgrades. Trade whichever one gets you more firepower. I think it's Cooley because it is easier to trade a known starter then a backup with potential. If Davis gets you more picks, do it.

[techboy]

This article doesn't say that Chris Cooley is on the decline.

The way Kirwan does these ratings is by groups. There are 5 people in each group. Cooley was in the A group, but this year Vernon Davis and Marcedes Lewis are in the A group ahead of him, so he and Tony Gonzalez were moved down to the B group. He could easily be just as good as he ever was (or even better), but if Vernon Davis and Marcedes Lewis improve to the point that they are even better (and both blew up last year), then Cooley gets moved down.

The arrow represents a movement in ranking, not individual skill.

[Califan007]

This article doesn't say that Chris Cooley is on the decline.

The way Kirwan does these ratings is by groups. There are 5 people in each group. Cooley was in the A group, but this year Vernon Davis and Marcedes Lewis are in the A group ahead of him, so he and Tony Gonzalez were moved down to the B group. He could easily be just as good as he ever was (or even better), but if Vernon Davis and Marcedes Lewis improve to the point that they are even better (and both blew up last year), then Cooley gets moved down.

The arrow represents a movement in ranking, not individual skill.
I think you might be right...

[Coach Janky Spanky]

The "really good organizations" rarely trade away Pro Bowl players who are still in their 20's unless they are able to get something really nice in return, the player is a locker room cancer or is having tension with the head coach, or the decline is noticeable and steep due to injury.

This is true. But I still think we should do it. Yes, teams rarely trade those type players away, but not never, and yeah I wouldn't do it unless we'd be able to get a couple relatively high picks in return.

And yes he's a great player, but it's not like he's a perennial Pro-Bowler. I just think having 2 TE's of the caliber of Cooley and Davis, given our other needs and given that we have a hard time getting both of them on the field, is a luxury given our multiple other pressing needs.

[techboy]

I think you might be right...

I know I am. I listen to his show on satellite radio all the time, and while I haven't heard him discuss his specific tight end rankings, I've heard him talk about his methodology, because he catches a lot of grief from people that don't understand it.

The one he catches the most heat for is that because he lists players by group, alphabetically, people think the guy on the top of each list is the best, and that's not right either.

Now, he might well think that Cooley is on the decline individually, but these rankings aren't an indication of that.

[greenspandan]

i seriously can't fathom trading away one of the few components that actually WORKS on this team. it's not like cooley is getting old. we need all the functionable/serviceable parts we can get. it does us no good to trade one that is performing near the top tier in the league at his position (and is still relatively young) for an unknown quantity in draft pics or other players.

just look at our success rate of bringing in players, either by trade or free agency, and i think it becomes pretty obvious that if something is actually working out here, we are (statistically) far better off sticking with that player than giving him away in the hopes that we can get something else that also happens to work out for us.

[Califan007]

This is true. But I still think we should do it. Yes, teams rarely trade those type players away, but not never, and yeah I wouldn't do it unless we'd be able to get a couple relatively high picks in return.

And yes he's a great player, but it's not like he's a perennial Pro-Bowler. I just think having 2 TE's of the caliber of Cooley and Davis, given our other needs and given that we have a hard time getting both of them on the field, is a luxury given our multiple other pressing needs.

What about if we still have our full set of draft picks next season, plus the extra 4th rounder for Campbell...combined with two free agency signing periods (this year and next year)....could we fill in the rest of our holes without getting rid of Cooley or Davis? Holes right now are: QB, NT, ILB, CB, OG, WR and Center. If we get one starting-caliber player in each of those spots--7 players--from this year's draft, next year's draft, this year's FA market and next year's FA market, the team should be pretty well stocked for the next 4-5 years.

[samy316]

I don't know what the point is of keeping both Davis and Cooley. We shoul've traded one or the other either last year or the year before. The organization would have to decide which one would would be more valuable at this point to make that decision. We don't have a real QB, and our offense as of right now sucks, so we don't need to pass catching tight ends. Before anyone shouts me down and mentions that we can utilize both TE's at the same time, why didn't we do that last year with a good QB on the roster? What makes you think that they would utilize a two TE set this year with a considerably worse QB situation?

I love Cooley and have his autographed jersey at my house. but I think he might start to decline here within the next two to three years. I can't remember where I exactly saw the stat, but in the last three years, he actually has more fumbles than TD catches. I know that he was near the top in yards and first down catches for TE's, but that is an alarming statistic right there. With our QB situation looking dreadful this coming year, Cooley has to step it up and score some TD's for us.

[SpacePenguin]

Before anyone shouts me down and mentions that we can utilize both TE's at the same time, why didn't we do that last year with a good QB on the roster?

I'm stuck on this. We had a good qb? We must be watching different games ;p

Cooley looked to be slowing down, but I don't think Davis blocks well enough for Shanny to deal him. Maybe CC was just beat up.

Time will tell I suppose.

[PokerPacker]

Jermichael Finley is group E... :/

[pjfootballer]

I agree with everything in this article. Cooley is fun, but his lack of touchdowns leaves a lot to be desired. The guy needs to step up his redzone production. Only target/no QB/horrible line be damned, Davis had no problem producing when he played.


This I disagree with. I'll admit, he drops passes and occassionally fumbles, but he catches alot of passes every year. The team as a whole has trouble getting into the endzone, so Cooley shouldn't always bear the brundt of criticism. The whole offense should be criticized. We are consistantly among the leaders in field goals attempted every year because we can't get into the godamn endzone.

Funny how Vernon Davis can get a pass for having a crappy QB situation, yet Cooley matches or exceeds him every year, but doesn't get the same pass for having possibly an even crappier QB situation. I'm not trying to put CC on a pedastool, but if/when he leaves, he and his production will be missed.

[wilco_holland]

Fantasy wise I agree, but as a player I would put CC higher because he is a way better blocker then Lewis, Davis and Gates.

Cooley is just a great player and persone. I really don´t see why you want to trade a player like that...even if you trade him you get almost no value in return.
You need guys like CC to keep the locker room fun and the fans happy. You can always count on a great quote from him.

[pjfootballer]

I don't disagree with you. I think Cooley still has all the skills and ability. But lets say the offense sucks again next year, which is more than possible. Lets say Cooley catches 2-3 TDs again. Then what? Then you've got a 29 year old tight end going into his ninth season who hasn't had a big season in half of his career. One more bad season, or God forbid, one more injured season, and Cooley's value is shot. Right now he at least can get us something.

Dallas Clark is 31 going on 32, shouldn't the Colts trade him? Witten is going on 28, should they trade him? Hell Gates has to be close to 30. Gonzalez, whew, he's 37, get rid of him.

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 01:34 PM ----------


This is true. But I still think we should do it. Yes, teams rarely trade those type players away, but not never, and yeah I wouldn't do it unless we'd be able to get a couple relatively high picks in return.

And yes he's a great player, but it's not like he's a perennial Pro-Bowler. I just think having 2 TE's of the caliber of Cooley and Davis, given our other needs and given that we have a hard time getting both of them on the field, is a luxury given our multiple other pressing needs.

The one area we have depth in (including Paulsen) and everyone wants to trade them.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

Dallas Clark is 31 going on 32, shouldn't the Colts trade him? Witten is going on 28, should they trade him? Hell Gates has to be close to 30. Gonzalez, whew, he's 37, get rid of him.

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 01:34 PM ----------



The one area we have depth in (including Paulsen) and everyone wants to trade them.

Those teams don't trade their tight ends because they don't have an almost as good player right behind then, and because they are all super bowl contenders with the exception of Dallas. Why would Clark, Gonzalez, and Gates get traded? Their teams can win the superbowl any year for the next 3-4 years.

We on the other hand are 2-3 years away, and I'd rather lock up Davis for 5 years then let him walk and have to resign Cooley for 5 years when his contract is up. Just my opinion.

[pjfootballer]

Those teams don't trade their tight ends because they don't have an almost as good player right behind then, and because they are all super bowl contenders with the exception of Dallas. Why would Clark, Gonzalez, and Gates get traded? Their teams can win the superbowl any year for the next 3-4 years.

We on the other hand are 2-3 years away, and I'd rather lock up Davis for 5 years then let him walk and have to resign Cooley for 5 years when his contract is up. Just my opinion.

We have plenty of cap room to lock up Davis if we need to. Landry is the most important player to lock up for the future. Davis can be taken care of later.

[Coach Janky Spanky]

What about if we still have our full set of draft picks next season, plus the extra 4th rounder for Campbell...combined with two free agency signing periods (this year and next year)....could we fill in the rest of our holes without getting rid of Cooley or Davis? Holes right now are: QB, NT, ILB, CB, OG, WR and Center. If we get one starting-caliber player in each of those spots--7 players--from this year's draft, next year's draft, this year's FA market and next year's FA market, the team should be pretty well stocked for the next 4-5 years.

I think theoretically we could address the 7 needs you've listed within the next 2 offseasons, as far as starters go, but we are sorely lacking depth at a lot of spots. The fact is, we had an excellent draft this year and free agency is going to be huge, especially with our cap room and all the free agents available...but I still think we should be of the mindset of doing something unconventional to rebuild, for the long term. Maybe I'm just still bitter at always being the team who picks up the guy right as he's declining, and would like to see a role reversal by dumping Cooley for some quality picks. I will say however that even though the 2012 draft is still almost a year away, it's nice to still have all our picks, plus one.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

What about Cooley + even better upgrade(s) > Davis?

Trading Davis and keeping Cooley? If we could get better return for Davis, I'm fine with that. I assume Cooley's Pro Bowls and accumulation of statistics would give him more value. If not, I'm fine with unloading the TE who brings back the most return...even though I believe Davis would play a little better on the field from this point forward.

[Skinzfever2010]

Trading Davis and keeping Cooley would simply be summed up as "Business as usual in Redskins Park". We love hanging on to our used goods a little to long. Trading away the youthful player with less mileage and more upside is how we do it. Fred Davis goes onto to a new place and becomes yet another redskin who thrived in a different situation. Chris has had a bad case of the drops and fumbles at inopportune time syndrome the last 2 years.

Keep Chris Trade Fred
Trade Chris keep Fred

We have a long way to go getting things on the right track in DC. It would be in our best interest to start righting those wrongs sooner than later. Danny will fall out of love with Shanny quick if we don't.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

We have plenty of cap room to lock up Davis if we need to. Landry is the most important player to lock up for the future. Davis can be taken care of later.

Sure we have plenty of room. But Davis is entering a contract year and he and the whole world knows he can be a starter. He wants a chance to earn his money this year, and if he doesn't get that chance why would he stick around. You think he wants to be Cooley's back up and get paid like a backup? You think paying him starter's money is a good idea if Cooley doesn't get moved?

You don't pay a guy starter money just to let him play 2nd string tight end. And a guy doesn't stay with a team where he's riding the bench when he knows he can get paid to make plays elsewhere.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Those teams don't trade their tight ends because they don't have an almost as good player right behind then, and because they are all super bowl contenders with the exception of Dallas. Why would Clark, Gonzalez, and Gates get traded? Their teams can win the superbowl any year for the next 3-4 years.

We on the other hand are 2-3 years away, and I'd rather lock up Davis for 5 years then let him walk and have to resign Cooley for 5 years when his contract is up. Just my opinion.

This is my thinking as well.

---------- Post added July-5th-2011 at 09:08 PM ----------


This I disagree with. I'll admit, he drops passes and occassionally fumbles, but he catches alot of passes every year. The team as a whole has trouble getting into the endzone, so Cooley shouldn't always bear the brundt of criticism. The whole offense should be criticized. We are consistantly among the leaders in field goals attempted every year because we can't get into the godamn endzone.

Funny how Vernon Davis can get a pass for having a crappy QB situation, yet Cooley matches or exceeds him every year, but doesn't get the same pass for having possibly an even crappier QB situation. I'm not trying to put CC on a pedastool, but if/when he leaves, he and his production will be missed.

I like Cooley but QB issues aside, Vernon is on a different level entirely.

[skins2victory]

Cooley is the redskins to me.......... Last season may not have been his best, but still above average for a TE. My guess is that his numbers will be even better in year 2 of this offence, not decline. I would bet money on it, but thats just me.

[HailfrmDEN]

I can believe the statement " he will decline next", because of two good reasons. Again no answer at QB and even worse status on the OL.

[McD5]

Trade him. This should have been done a year ago.

Davis isn't much, if any of a dropoff. And we have too many other holes to fill.

[B55Green]

I think Davis is better than Cooley because he blocks better, however, I don't think he's on the decline, didn't he just have his 2nd best season?

[ConnSKINS26]

What about Cooley + even better upgrade(s) > Davis?

If you're still running with the logic that the rest of the league values Davis more than Cooley...then don't you think we should learn something from that?

I don't think that either of us actually believes the above, though.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 02:21 AM ----------


I'm not trying to put CC on a pedastool, but if/when he leaves, he and his production will be missed.

We didn't in '09, when Cooley was younger and Davis less experienced. Not sure why we would now.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 02:25 AM ----------


Cooley is the redskins to me.......... Last season may not have been his best, but still above average for a TE.

I think this explains a lot about us as Skins fans.

[bedlamVR]

Sure we have plenty of room. But Davis is entering a contract year and he and the whole world knows he can be a starter. He wants a chance to earn his money this year, and if he doesn't get that chance why would he stick around. You think he wants to be Cooley's back up and get paid like a backup? You think paying him starter's money is a good idea if Cooley doesn't get moved?

You don't pay a guy starter money just to let him play 2nd string tight end. And a guy doesn't stay with a team where he's riding the bench when he knows he can get paid to make plays elsewhere.

The whole world knows he is a starter - how ? How do they know that ? I think Davis is a great player and I think he should be getting more playing time but that is down to him to show on the practice field in the class room and in the training field he deserves to get more playing time . He is 4 years younger than and should be outshining Captain Chaos but he doesn't . To me Davis is a Ladell Betts or a Ben Utept - a very good back up who had a moment in the sun but has shown no reason why he could be the starter down the line .

This season if he has an amazing season then sure lock him up but he has at least one year left here if Cooley does show signs of slowing down and if Davis does want a future with the Redskins then this is the year he has to show it - he has to outshine Cooley in every aspect of the game . If he does then fine - but I get the feeling he wont (and he hasn't in the past)

Pass catching TEs are the QBs best friend but not many teams really value them and so to trade Cooley now we would get essentially pennies on the $$ . Cooley signed a very reasonable contract to stay with the skins a couple of seasons ago and when Davis comes to contract negociations that will be the bar to compare to . We will see what FD wants to do .

[DieselPwr44]

Considering the garbage we've had under center his entire career here, I'm surprised Cooley has done as well as he has.

Imagine a guy like Brady throwing to him......my Lord, his numbers would jump off the charts.

[authentic]

I've read through most of this thread (not all of it). however i haven't seen anyone mention Logan Paulsen as an option if either Cooley or Davis were to be traded. IMO if either of these guys go, I wouldn't mind him getting a promotion. It seemed everytime this guy touched the field last year, he made plays (whether it was the preseason or regular season). Plus he's 6'5 and about 270. Reminds me of a Kevin Boss-type who can either stay in and be an effective blocker or be a recieving threat.... Personlly i will be looking at him closely in preseason action.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 07:34 AM ----------


Considering the garbage we've had under center his entire career here, I'm surprised Cooley has done as well as he has.

Imagine a guy like Brady throwing to him......my Lord, his numbers would jump off the charts.

And that's the point!! Cooley would go to another team and florish. But at some point a decision would need to be made. How long can you keep 2 recieving TEs on one team?

[NoCalMike]

Until this team gets an O-line that can consistently block without using max protect, then the TE position will always be limited as far as numbers go.

Fred Davis I would say is definitely more "physically gifted" than Cooley, however he is also been the type of player that tends to make 1 or 2 really good plays a game that stick in people's minds, while Cooley puts in the bigger work rate as far as catching the tough 3rd down catches that move chains but don't make highlights.

Fred Davis has the POTENTIAL to be the better player. Whether we will ever see it or not, who knows. Don't forget Michael Westbrook who had the physical tools to be Andre Johnson....before well....yeah.

[greenspandan]

Until this team gets an O-line that can consistently block without using max protect, then the TE position will always be limited as far as numbers go.

pardon me, but how is second in the NFL in receptions and third in the NFL in first downs "limited"? man, Redskins fans are so spoiled regarding what they have in Cooley.

[samy316]

pardon me, but how is second in the NFL in receptions and third in the NFL in first downs "limited"? man, Redskins fans are so spoiled regarding what they have in Cooley.


He means the most important stat which is TD's. Like I said earlier, Cooley has had more fumbles than TD's the last 2-3 years. It sucks because as much as I like Cooley, our QB situation is going to suck for a while which is bad for CC. Cooley might be wasting, or has already wasted his prime years with this team sadly. There's no telling how amazing his numbers would've been if he had played with a semi-competent QB the last couple of years.

[MartinC]

pardon me, but how is second in the NFL in receptions and third in the NFL in first downs "limited"? man, Redskins fans are so spoiled regarding what they have in Cooley.

I assumed he meant limited in terms of production from the second TE spot. We played 2 or more TEs on a significant proportion of snaps last year - the multiple TE set was a core part of our offense and week to week game plan. Thing is on most occasions one of those TEs was pass blocking or at least doing a check pattern were the player checks for a specific player (say the OLB) to see if he rushes or drops into coverage before committing to a pass pattern.

In short while we often had 2 TEs on the field at the same time we did not often have 2 TEs out on patterns at the same time. If the coaches had more faith in our pass protection then that might change, especially in the red zone.

I do agree with you though we need to be realistic about the production you are going to get from the TE spot overall - there are only so many balls to spread around your receivers, TEs and backs.

[jwmann2]

You cannot argue that Cooley belongs in that first group. Where is Jeremy Shockey on this list? Far more talented than Miller...expect for Jermaine Gresham to make some noise if there is a season this year. Even though he won't have much of a QB either.

[paloosa]

What does Kirwan know? or anyone else in the media? They put these rankings together based on their opinion. Antonio Gates was hurt last year and he is the "Gold standard?" based on what? Mercedes Lewis is in that elite group because he had a breakout year with 10 TD's and has excellent blocking skills? So if Lewis has only 4 TD's this year is he going to be in the elite group next year? or If Antonio "Gold Standard" Gates gets hurt this year will he still be in his elite group? One year of injuries or one good year of catching TD's make you at the top or on the decline. This is all about an opinion of a sports media writer that is a dime a dozen this day and age. Not really that big of a deal. And for the record, Kirwan never said in his evaluation that Cooley was on the decline. So the thread is misleading.

[pjfootballer]

I like Cooley but QB issues aside, Vernon is on a different level entirely.

As a MD fan, Davis was a huge disappointment his first couple of years. He's been good the last 2 seasons and finally reached his potential. Cooley has been doing this since day 1. Vernon is not on a different level. He is still very inconsistant. I know this is stupid to say, but I'll say it anyway. I run a fantasy football league (keeper league) and I've had Cooley on my one team since day 1. Davis is far more inconsistant when I look at his stats. He'll blow up for 130 yards one week, and have 30 the next. Cooley can be counted on for 50+ yards a game. Vernon is a good player, but I'm not ready to crown him a HOFer yet and like I said, I'm a Terps fan.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 01:20 PM ----------


We didn't in '09, when Cooley was younger and Davis less experienced. Not sure why we would now.

Half a season. Davis hasn't proven anything yet other than a half a season and if he's better than Cooley why hasn't he (pardon the pun) wrestled the position away from Chris?

We have good depth at TE. Something we don't have at other positions. Why trade the only area of depth we have when there are other ways to improve the team (2012 draft, 2011 free agency)? I'd like to keep both of them.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 01:25 PM ----------


I think Davis is better than Cooley because he blocks better, however, I don't think he's on the decline, didn't he just have his 2nd best season?

Really? Cooley has improved his blocking every year. Fred is the end guy on field goals and has allowed a couple of guys to get in and block or get a piece of the ball. I disagree that FD is a better blocker.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 01:25 PM ----------


Until this team gets an O-line that can consistently block without using max protect, then the TE position will always be limited as far as numbers go.

Fred Davis I would say is definitely more "physically gifted" than Cooley, however he is also been the type of player that tends to make 1 or 2 really good plays a game that stick in people's minds, while Cooley puts in the bigger work rate as far as catching the tough 3rd down catches that move chains but don't make highlights.

Fred Davis has the POTENTIAL to be the better player. Whether we will ever see it or not, who knows. Don't forget Michael Westbrook who had the physical tools to be Andre Johnson....before well....yeah.

Good post.

[ConnSKINS26]

You cannot argue that Cooley belongs in that first group. Where is Jeremy Shockey on this list? Far more talented than Miller...expect for Jermaine Gresham to make some noise if there is a season this year. Even though he won't have much of a QB either.

Jeremy Shockey? Little out of touch, huh? He doesn't belong. Gresham does though. Good call there.

[addicted]

You mean we have two excellent tight ends for ONE more season.:2cents:

The tight end position isn't what it used to be. Now almost every team has a pass catching TE and some teams like us have two guys who can do that job. I've been saying for the past two seasons that if I were in charge I'd trade one of the two TE's if it were up to me. Your point that next year Davis is a free agent has me thinking why any one would think the right thing to do here is to trade Cooley. Seems to me that the thing to do here with them if your going to trade one of them is to trade Davis. For one he's younger, two he's in his "contract year" and all good players perform at the highest levels when they are playing for a new contract, and lastly we likely will not be able to keep Davis. Cooley's contract is much more then Davis contract

From Rotoworld:
8/1/2007: Signed a six-year, $30 million contract. The deal contains $14 million guaranteed, including an $11 million roster bonus in the second year. Annual $100,000 workout bonuses are available 2009-2013. 2011: $3.7 million, 2012: $3.8 million, 2013: $3.85 million, 2014: Free Agent

So the question to me is if your going to do a trade where do you go? Cooley is older and more used but would count against the cap to move. Davis is in the last year of his deal, hasn't been given much of a shot outside of when Cooley was injured, and I can't imagine too pleased with the way he was used here. He's likely gone after this year.

If it were me based on these points I'd keep Cooley and dangle Davis to the league. We might get lucky and get a 3rd for Davis but I don't think we end up with a 2nd or higher for him. Or we can keep him on the team as an insurance policy and watch him go next year for nothing. Im thinking there would be a trade partner for Davis since this is a copycat league and the Patriots showed how to use two TE's last season effectively. Of course it would be nice to one day see that here but with our offensive line sucking ass like it does my faith in that ever happening is admittedly gone. I'd take something for Davis and keep the wild man here personally

[ConnSKINS26]

We have good depth at TE. Something we don't have at other positions. Why trade the only area of depth we have when there are other ways to improve the team (2012 draft, 2011 free agency)? I'd like to keep both of them.

Davis won't be staying here if we let him hit FA. And he won't re-sign here if Cooley's still starting/here. So that one position of depth? It won't be, and it'll be out of our control. That's the idea behind making a decision now, and getting some value for one.

[pjfootballer]

Davis won't be staying here if we let him hit FA. And he won't re-sign here if Cooley's still starting/here. So that one position of depth? It won't be, and it'll be out of our control. That's the idea behind making a decision now, and getting some value for one.

That's just an assumption that he won't re-sign here unless you've seen a direct quote from Davis himself saying he won't re-sign if Cooley is still here. Tight ends rarely make good money in free agency. Nobody breaks the bank for a TE. I wish the lockout would end so we can make some decisions with regards to players whose contract ended or will end after this season. It's frustrating to speculate.

[ConnSKINS26]

That's just an assumption that he won't re-sign here unless you've seen a direct quote from Davis himself saying he won't re-sign if Cooley is still here. Tight ends rarely make good money in free agency. Nobody breaks the bank for a TE. I wish the lockout would end so we can make some decisions with regards to players who's contract ended or will end after this season. It's frustrating to speculate.

I can agree wholeheartedly there. I can't wait for some real decisions to be made, so that we can debate results, rather than possibilities.

[addicted]

That's just an assumption that he won't re-sign here unless you've seen a direct quote from Davis himself saying he won't re-sign if Cooley is still here. Tight ends rarely make good money in free agency. Nobody breaks the bank for a TE. I wish the lockout would end so we can make some decisions with regards to players whose contract ended or will end after this season. It's frustrating to speculate.

All professional atheletes need the opportunity to perform so they can get that payday. The problem with your post is that in reality Davis hasn't had an opportunity to perform other then what he did when Cooley was out of the picture. You don't think that Davis hasn't noticed this lack of an opportunity since he was drafted? Anyone thinking that we need "confirmation" that Davis is headed out of here to me is being exteremly optimistic and ignoring some simple mechanics of the business of professional sports. Davis likely will want to go anywhere where he can get involved in the offense more then he is now so he can get that payday. And I think that speaks about atheletes in general with no disrespect to Davis. That to me is just business.

Sorry that this reality is frustrating to you but I see it like this. If the team starts being more proactive instead of reactive we won't see guys like Davis or Andre Carter go to waste. Had we taken a similar approach last year to Andre Carter who was coming off his career best sacks recorded in a season for his career, instead of cutting him for nothing like we did we likely could have gotten a draft pick for him even if it was just for a 7th round pick last year for him. Davis is likely the same situation. We didn't cash in on Carters value and that hurt us. We need to be more like the Eagles who are faced with a similar situation with Kolb and just do the right thing for the future and trade him if we can. It's better to get something instead of nothing.

[Califan007]

I've read through most of this thread (not all of it). however i haven't seen anyone mention Logan Paulsen as an option if either Cooley or Davis were to be traded. IMO if either of these guys go, I wouldn't mind him getting a promotion. It seemed everytime this guy touched the field last year, he made plays (whether it was the preseason or regular season).

I have zero against Paulsen, but he only caught 2 passes last year lol...that's nowhere near enough to draw any conclusions about the guy. I don't really consider the 3 passes he caught in preseason to mean anything...the preseason is stocked full of guys who "make plays" against 3rd stringers and then disappear altogether in the regular season. If preseason production from and against back-ups meant anything, Colt Brennan, Marko Mitchell and Marcus Mason (just for starters) would have been leading this team to multiple playoff births lol :)...

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 11:18 AM ----------


All professional atheletes need the opportunity to perform so they can get that payday. The problem with your post is that in reality Davis hasn't had an opportunity to perform other then what he did when Cooley was out of the picture. You don't think that Davis hasn't noticed this lack of an opportunity since he was drafted? Anyone thinking that we need "confirmation" that Davis is headed out of here to me is being exteremly optimistic and ignoring some simple mechanics of the business of professional sports. Davis likely will want to go anywhere where he can get involved in the offense more then he is now so he can get that payday. And I think that speaks about atheletes in general with no disrespect to Davis. That to me is just business.
The same could have been said for Ladell Betts, but he resigned with the Skins in the middle of the season a year after having piled up big numbers as Portis' back-up...

[authentic]

I have zero against Paulsen, but he only caught 2 passes last year lol...that's nowhere near enough to draw any conclusions about the guy. I don't really consider the 3 passes he caught in preseason to mean anything....

I swore he did more than that... I suppose the 1 TD was more than i expected of him coming into the year. However, point taken.

[Califan007]

I swore he did more than that... I suppose the 1 TD was more than i expected of him coming into the year. However, point taken.

Considering that we have a Pro Bowl TE and a back-up TE that many on here think is even better than the Pro Bowl TE he's backing up, I'm surprised Paulsen had ANY passes thrown his way :ols:...that he turned one of them into a TD is promising. :yes:

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

That's just an assumption that he won't re-sign here unless you've seen a direct quote from Davis himself saying he won't re-sign if Cooley is still here. Tight ends rarely make good money in free agency.


Fred didn't actually say he wouldn't re-sign if Cooley was here but close enough.


Typically, award-winning players end up on a team in need of an upgrade at that particular position. In Washington, Davis found himself behind a Pro Bowl tight end who also happened to be his team’s most popular player. Not exactly a dream scenario for a new guy hoping to make a strong first impression.

“I mean, it does get frustrating sometimes, but you’ve got to think about it and be thankful you’re in the league,” Davis said. “In the NFL, it’s all about opportunity. I get people asking me, ‘Why aren’t you performing better?’ But how do you expect me to show my best and show my abilities when I’m not getting an opportunity?

“He’s the guy getting paid the big money,” he continued. “He’s the guy who has made a name for himself as a Redskin. That’s just the way it goes. I’m not going to sit around and cry about it. I’ve just got to do what I can to be ready so when I get a chance, I make the most of it. I’m either going to do it here, or eventually I’ll end up on another team that needs me more. I’ve just got to continue to prove to everyone that I can do it.”



http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?340192-Hail!-Magazine-Fred-Davis-talks-USC-scandals-Redskins-failures-and-his-relationship-w-Chris-Cooley&highlight=fred+davis+chris+cooley

[Hitman21ST]

Fred didn't actually say he wouldn't re-sign if Cooley was here but close enough.



http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?340192-Hail!-Magazine-Fred-Davis-talks-USC-scandals-Redskins-failures-and-his-relationship-w-Chris-Cooley&highlight=fred+davis+chris+cooley

I think that might have been in reference to if we didn't make an attempt to re-sign him. I don't know why, nor do I have anything to back this up, but I think that he'll stay a Skin if we make him an offer.

[addicted]

Fred didn't actually say he wouldn't re-sign if Cooley was here but close enough.

Wow...I didn't know he came out and said all that when I originally posted but for those silly enough to think that Davis is staying after his contract expires next season this just about sealed that coffin. Think the Patriots would let someone like Davis rot on the bench? I don't. If this was the Pats they would have gone way out of the way last season to put him on display for the entire league to see and created a bidding war and traded him this offseason. Davis is as good as gone after this year, unless you think he's worth a franchise tag, lol.

Trade him while we still can get something for the wasted second rounder please

[pjfootballer]

All professional atheletes need the opportunity to perform so they can get that payday. The problem with your post is that in reality Davis hasn't had an opportunity to perform other then what he did when Cooley was out of the picture. You don't think that Davis hasn't noticed this lack of an opportunity since he was drafted? Anyone thinking that we need "confirmation" that Davis is headed out of here to me is being exteremly optimistic and ignoring some simple mechanics of the business of professional sports. Davis likely will want to go anywhere where he can get involved in the offense more then he is now so he can get that payday. And I think that speaks about atheletes in general with no disrespect to Davis. That to me is just business.

Sorry that this reality is frustrating to you but I see it like this. If the team starts being more proactive instead of reactive we won't see guys like Davis or Andre Carter go to waste. Had we taken a similar approach last year to Andre Carter who was coming off his career best sacks recorded in a season for his career, instead of cutting him for nothing like we did we likely could have gotten a draft pick for him even if it was just for a 7th round pick last year for him. Davis is likely the same situation. We didn't cash in on Carters value and that hurt us. We need to be more like the Eagles who are faced with a similar situation with Kolb and just do the right thing for the future and trade him if we can. It's better to get something instead of nothing.

Then Davis needs to beat him out and not be handed his opportunity.

I agree with you that we don't maximize the value of our players in trades, but using Carter, who was 31 or 32 at the time, what exactly could we have gotten for a smallish 4-3 DE? We kept him after his career high in sacks and then tried to convert him to a 3-4 LB. I think alot of Redskins fans also over-value our players.

And I'm not frustrated about Davis decision. I'm frustrated at the lockout that teams aren't able to resolve these issues. And I think the Eagles make too many moves for the sake of staying young. I think they need a more veteran presence to get them over the hump to win a championship. Sometimes a team can be too young.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 04:35 PM ----------


Fred didn't actually say he wouldn't re-sign if Cooley was here but close enough.



http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?340192-Hail!-Magazine-Fred-Davis-talks-USC-scandals-Redskins-failures-and-his-relationship-w-Chris-Cooley&highlight=fred+davis+chris+cooley

Thanks for the info. Then we really need to make this guy a priority after Landry to re-sign him.

[skinfan2k]

Cooley is our only redzone option. Thats why we dont have any touchdowns.

[Burgold]

Right now, Davis is another one of those "high potential" guys the Redskins seemingly have always had over the last decade. With all the drops Cooley had last year and with a fair amount of playing time and certainly adequate practice time Davis needs to force his coach's hand or make his qb feel stupid in tape sessions for not finding him.

Davis has been okay on the field, but he hasn't really exploded. He needs to. Part of that is the qb and oline situation, but we went to a fair amount of max protect which means two te I think and that should equal opportunity either for him to prove himself indespensible in the run/pass blocking game or as a playmaker. If he couldn't get on the field it means the coaches felt that the three WR packages were more effective or more dangerous and lord knows Davis should have more impact than Roydell or Galloway did... even if he can't unseat Cooley.

If he's good enough those two tight end formations and plays would start appearing. It's up to him to make a loud statement in practice and on the field.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 05:53 PM ----------

The fact that Anthony Armstrong and Keiland Williams saw substantial playing time even leading to well known vets getting canned suggests that Shannahan was welling to play better playing performers over better known athletes.

[bedlamVR]

Had we taken a similar approach last year to Andre Carter who was coming off his career best sacks recorded in a season for his career, instead of cutting him for nothing like we did we likely could have gotten a draft pick for him even if it was just for a 7th round pick last year for him. Davis is likely the same situation. We didn't cash in on Carters value and that hurt us. We need to be more like the Eagles who are faced with a similar situation with Kolb and just do the right thing for the future and trade him if we can.

Except Carter still had that no trade clause in his contract and would have had to agree to any trade - which he evidently did not .

Davis has to make his own opportunities - I have said this before and I will say it again . No one is going to give you anything in life you have to take it when you have the opportunity . Davis and Cooley are not the same player - Cooley is amazingly constant (849 yards in 2008 and 2010 - now that is consistency)- People bang on and on about Cooleys drops (of which i think he had 6 - or a 4.9% drop rate on 123 target - Davis incidentally had 3 drops, 10.3% on 29 targets (http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/38946/which-tight-ends-had-most-fewest-drops) but Cooley has for years put in amazing effort always near the top of the league in terms of yards and 1st downs and receptions with the coaching and QB mess that occurs in Washington on a yearly - basis - Davis makes those big mid distance plays that make people forget the three or four bone headed plays he also makes in a game .

And when it comes to TDs - Not everyone is a TD machine - Hell not even all TEs are touchdown machines . In 2009 Jason Witten had 94 receptions and 2 TDs . With the Redskins it is not easy for pass catchers to cross the goal line - in 2004 Coles had 90 receptions and 1 TD - in 1985 Art Monk had a bad season for TDs but hauled in 91 receptions and 1235 yards but only 2 scores{ http://www.tbd.com/articles/2010/12/chris-cooley-is-not-a-touchdown-machine-and-that-s-ok-39734.html }

With Cooley it is especially difficult because with Gibbs in charge as soon as we hit the redzone we would come out in heavy packages and pound the ball into the EZ and Cooley would be taken out the game in favor of bigger blockers like Sellers and Todd Yoda and Lorenzo Alexander (back in the days he was the third tackle / eligible receiver) .

When Cooley is let loose in the redzone he is a low priority target because he tends to occupy the muddled middle - the last place QBs want to throw in the opponents RZ .

I am not sure what Kirwan has seen or thought he has seen - Cooley keeps ticking not sure he is quite on the way to the knackers yard just yet .

[authentic]

Cooley's issue in the redzone is a direct result of not having other legit redzone threats around him. So other teams were willing to double Cooley and go 1 on 1 with the smaller recievers. Hopefully with the addition of Hankerson and a healthy M. Kelly, things will open up for everyone, including Cooley. We'll see..

[TANAMAN]

In my opinion we need to trade Cooley, NOW. Don't get me wrong I love Chris and I understand that as fans we fall in love with our favorite player, I get it, we as fans are supposed to do that. The front office however is paid to make good football decisions. Davis won't resign here if Cooley is on the roster, period, and I don't blame him, he'd without a doubt get a chance to start somewhere. Which is what any player really wants, and if they don't, do you really want them on your team? The only way you don't move Cooley in our situation is if A) You have the capability of making a run for a title or B) that player is an absolute stud making it stupid to move him. See Tony Gonzalez in KC, it didn't matter what young TE was behind him he was simply too good to get rid of all those years, even though he had began to age. It took a regime change for the decision to be made.

If we were in a position to win now I'm on board with keeping Chris. But this isn't our situation, I don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years. And in this case you keep the younger player who may be a step behind in a few areas of his game but is the superior athelete. That way in 2-3 years we have a solid 27-28 year old TE who we can count on for another 3-5 years, rather than a 31-32 year old who we'll be looking to replace in a year. Plus Cooley at this point would garner the most return, he's been to multiple pro bowls he's proven and respected. We wouldn't get a 1st or 2nd for him but we could be looking at a 3rd and a late conditional pick. Letting a younger player (who's knocking on the door of being just as good as the vet) walk for nothing when your not in a position to win now makes no FOOTBALL sense.

Look at what Philly did to us in the McNabb trade. Whether it was due to Andy Reid's playbook, McNabb's fimiliarity with the system, the talent around him or whatever he was a hell of a QB in Philly. But after his last year people began to think McNabb was on the decline. Even though he was coming off of one of his best statistical years as a pro with 3,500 yards and 22 TD's in only 14 games. That was the 3rd highest yardage total and 4th highest TD total for his career and he missed two games. McNabb's value would never be higher than it was after that season. Reid knew this, and even though Kevin Kolb wasn't as good of a QB as McNabb, Reid knew that he had the potential and that he was much younger. (They got lucky as hell that Vick regained his old form but Reid was going with Kolb as the starter all the way.) And they raped us for a 2nd and a 4th round pick for a 1 year rental. Good franchises know when it's time to move on and when to unload a player while their value is still high, especially if there's a younger talented player waiting in the wings. We need to be that franchise this time and for a change not be the ones getting burned. IMO.

[authentic]

In my opinion we need to trade Cooley, NOW. Don't get me wrong I love Chris and I understand that as fans we fall in love with our favorite player, I get it, we as fans are supposed to do that. The front office however is paid to make good football decisions. Davis won't resign here if Cooley is on the roster, period, and I don't blame him, he'd without a doubt get a chance to start somewhere. Which is what any player really wants, and if they don't, do you really want them on your team? The only way you don't move Cooley in our situation is if A) You have the capability of making a run for a title or B) that player is an absolute stud making it stupid to move him. See Tony Gonzalez in KC, it didn't matter what young TE was behind him he was simply too good to get rid of all those years, even though he had began to age. It took a regime change for the decision to be made.

If we were in a position to win now I'm on board with keeping Chris. But this isn't our situation, I don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years. And in this case you keep the younger player who may be a step behind in a few areas of his game but is the superior athelete. That way in 2-3 years we have a solid 27-28 year old TE who we can count on for another 3-5 years, rather than a 31-32 year old who we'll be looking to replace in a year. Plus Cooley at this point would garner the most return, he's been to multiple pro bowls he's proven and respected. We wouldn't get a 1st or 2nd for him but we could be looking at a 3rd and a late conditional pick. Letting a younger player (who's knocking on the door of being just as good as the vet) walk for nothing when your not in a position to win now makes no FOOTBALL sense.

Look at what Philly did to us in the McNabb trade. Whether it was due to Andy Reid's playbook, McNabb's fimiliarity with the system, the talent around him or whatever he was a hell of a QB in Philly. But after his last year people began to think McNabb was on the decline. Even though he was coming off of one of his best statistical years as a pro with 3,500 yards and 22 TD's in only 14 games. That was the 3rd highest yardage total and 4th highest TD total for his career and he missed two games. McNabb's value would never be higher than it was after that season. Reid knew this, and even though Kevin Kolb wasn't as good of a QB as McNabb, Reid knew that he had the potential and that he was much younger. (They got lucky as hell that Vick regained his old form but Reid was going with Kolb as the starter all the way.) And they raped us for a 2nd and a 4th round pick for a 1 year rental. Good franchises know when it's time to move on and when to unload a player while their value is still high, especially if there's a younger talented player waiting in the wings. We need to be that franchise this time and for a change not be the ones getting burned. IMO.

Hard to argue with this^^.....

[TANAMAN]

Hard to argue with this^^.....
Thanks, I've had this argument many times with my father and my brothers, so I'm getting pretty good at making my points........lol

[Califan007]

Hard to argue with this^^.....
No too hard, actually. This part stands out in my mind...

"I don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years."

Wonderful that some fans don't see the Skins competing for "anything" until 2014. But fan perception has shown itself to be notoriously inaccurate. If you remember, this board almost went ballistic when we drafted Davis, with the mantra at the time being "We already HAVE a tight end! A Pro Bowl tight end! What a wasted pick!" :ols:...We also had threads back then with topics like "Is now the time to trade Moss now that we have Thomas and Kelly?" lol...That's fan perception at its best, right there. So, yeah, I don't really care if fans are thinking the Redskins won't be worth squat for another 3 years.

Better would be to say "If the coaches don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years", THEN trading Cooley might make sense. But if the coaches see the Redskins legitimately competing for the division by next season, then what?

Can argue this part, too:

"That way in 2-3 years we have a solid 27-28 year old TE who we can count on for another 3-5 years, rather than a 31-32 year old who we'll be looking to replace in a year."

The thinking here, it seems, is that the Redskins can not and will not be anything of worth for the next 3 years, so having an established vet on the team now is a waste of roster space...that damn near the entire team needs to be coming into the primes of their careers simultaneously. The logic also assumes that if we were without Davis (either through trade or through losing him in FA), that the front office wouldn't look for a valuable TE back-up until some 3 years down the road...and that of course anyone we could end up with couldn't possibly be as good as Fred Davis was in his first 2 seasons.

Definitely not hard to argue against that stance imo.

[Burgold]

The other thing that stands out to me is that when you have a team that's built and running smoothly you can more afford to get rid of your good players a year early. For a team like the Redskins with only a few really good players, you actually need someone on the team that can set the example, show the work ethic, and teach the pups the right way to be an NFL player. That's why having a Fletcher on this team is still important even if we don't win. That's why having a Lorenzo Alexander is essential. On the offensive side, Cooley's the guy. Moss should have been the guy, but he's always training in Florida so he can't set that in house example. You need that Monk or Green type of star that wows the young uns and works harder than everyone. They say Jerry Rice trained harder than anyone else on any team he was on. That pushes players. They try to match that. That's a reason that Portis and Haynesworth were continually so destructive. Our best players were sometimes our laziest players on the practice field. It set a bad example.

Cooley is a pro. He works hard and does what needs to be done. We need more Cooleys not less.

[TANAMAN]

Better would be to say "If the coaches don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years", THEN trading Cooley might make sense. But if the coaches see the Redskins legitimately competing for the division by next season, then what?

Can argue this part, too:

"That way in 2-3 years we have a solid 27-28 year old TE who we can count on for another 3-5 years, rather than a 31-32 year old who we'll be looking to replace in a year."

The thinking here, it seems, is that the Redskins can not and will not be anything of worth for the next 3 years, so having an established vet on the team now is a waste of roster space...that damn near the entire team needs to be coming into the primes of their careers simultaneously. The logic also assumes that if we were without Davis (either through trade or through losing him in FA), that the front office wouldn't look for a valuable TE back-up until some 3 years down the road...and that of course anyone we could end up with couldn't possibly be as good as Fred Davis was in his first 2 seasons.

Definitely not hard to argue against that stance imo.
I agree with your first response, if the front office believes we can compete now than so be it I trust their decision. I honestly don't believe Cooley is going anywhere I still give my opinion though.

Your second part however is a bit out of the context of what I was saying. First I was talking about Cooley and Davis' situation singularly not trading every aging player on the roster because they have value. Thier situation is unique because the backup is damn as good as the starter and is 4 years younger. In that case the vet is taking up valuable space by occupying the position the younger player could be growing into and the value we receive in trade is a major plus.

[authentic]

BG, you make some good points. The ONLY reason i wouldn't consider trading Cooley this year is because of our QB situation. Cooley is one of the few leaders we have on offense, esp with no leadership under center. Right now, its hard to say anything definitive about this roster until we get back to business and FA runs its course.

[TANAMAN]

The other thing that stands out to me is that when you have a team that's built and running smoothly you can more afford to get rid of your good players a year early. For a team like the Redskins with only a few really good players, you actually need someone on the team that can set the example, show the work ethic, and teach the pups the right way to be an NFL player. That's why having a Fletcher on this team is still important even if we don't win. That's why having a Lorenzo Alexander is essential. On the offensive side, Cooley's the guy. Moss should have been the guy, but he's always training in Florida so he can't set that in house example. You need that Monk or Green type of star that wows the young uns and works harder than everyone. They say Jerry Rice trained harder than anyone else on any team he was on. That pushes players. They try to match that. That's a reason that Portis and Haynesworth were continually so destructive. Our best players were sometimes our laziest players on the practice field. It set a bad example.

Cooley is a pro. He works hard and does what needs to be done. We need more Cooleys not less.
I agree with the premise of your post however, again I'm not saying trade every vet. This thread is talking about Cooley and that is the situation I was reffering to. All I'm saying in a nut shell is, if we have to decide between losing Davis who I believe to be a quality TE from the opportunities he's had and losing Cooley who's 4 years older, for this team which I don't believe to be in position to win now would be a mistake.

[authentic]

No too hard, actually. This part stands out in my mind...

"I don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years."

Wonderful that some fans don't see the Skins competing for "anything" until 2014. But fan perception has shown itself to be notoriously inaccurate. If you remember, this board almost went ballistic when we drafted Davis, with the mantra at the time being "We already HAVE a tight end! A Pro Bowl tight end! What a wasted pick!" :ols:...We also had threads back then with topics like "Is now the time to trade Moss now that we have Thomas and Kelly?" lol...That's fan perception at its best, right there. So, yeah, I don't really care if fans are thinking the Redskins won't be worth squat for another 3 years.

Better would be to say "If the coaches don't see us competing for anything for another 2-3 years", THEN trading Cooley might make sense. But if the coaches see the Redskins legitimately competing for the division by next season, then what? .

We'll see how things look after FA...But i hear you though. Based on the draft, i think Shanny will stick with his plan on getting younger to build for the long term, which i actually like.

[Burgold]

I agree with the premise of your post however, again I'm not saying trade every vet. This thread is talking about Cooley and that is the situation I was reffering to. All I'm saying in a nut shell is, if we have to decide between losing Davis who I believe to be a quality TE from the opportunities he's had and losing Cooley who's 4 years older, to a team the I don't believe to be in position to win now would be a mistake.

I'm arguing something slightly different. I'm saying different vets have different values. Cooley is one of the few on this team that really sets the right tone and always gives effort. Quite a few of our aging vets don't. More, you want some of your best players to provide the best example. That's why Shawn Springs practicing in Arizona while not effecting Shawn's play was detrimental. That's why Moss and Portis doing their own thing in Florida didn't increase team chemistry and make the team excel. Cooley is the vet on offense with status who can be a role model. Who else do we have? Anthony Armstrong can't fulfill that role. Banks can't. Moss can't. Rabach can't. Beck and Grossman don't have the gravitas to pull it off. Torrain can't. The only guy we have with stature on offense is Cooley. That's it. Moss might be gone. Moss also isn't the guy you want players emulating. He loafs in practice and even in games sometimes. We've all seen him jog routes during running plays cuing the dbs or giving up on plays before the whistle.

So, that's why I don't think it'd be wise to trade Cooley for a guy high on potential but nowhere near the same in production. Besides, a guy with the nickname sleepy just doesn't sound like a locker room leader to me :silly:

[Califan007]

I agree with your first response, if the front office believes we can compete now than so be it I trust their decision. I honestly don't believe Cooley is going anywhere I still give my opinion though.

Your second part however is a bit out of the context of what I was saying. First I was talking about Cooley and Davis' situation singularly not trading every aging player on the roster because they have value. Thier situation is unique because the backup is damn as good as the starter and is 4 years younger. In that case the vet is taking up valuable space by occupying the position the younger player could be growing into and the value we receive in trade is a major plus.

Well, my second point was basically posted in more detail by Burgold :yes:...Veterans like Cooley bring more to the team than just number of receptions/TDs...things that rebuilding teams definitely need. And teams don't usually bounce quality starters because they have quality back-ups in the wings...the good teams tend to prepare for a possibly losing the quality starter and groom his replacement, but they don't toss out the quality starter because they have a capable back-up. Most teams hope for the best in FA when it comes to their own players, and keep the good players they already have under contract on the roster.

As for Davis being as good as Cooley, we'd have to ask ourselves:

- Does Davis understand the offensive scheme and his responsibilities on plays as well as or better than Cooley?
- Does Davis run his routes as well as or better than Cooley?
- Does Davis block as well as or better than Cooley?
- Does Davis have a better dropped pass percentage than Cooley?
- Does Davis approach his profession and his practice/meetings/playbook as professionally as Cooley?
- Is Davis a better leader than Cooley?
- Is Davis as reliable or more reliable than Cooley?
- Will Davis instruct the other TEs in his unit as well as Cooley?
- Will Davis make as many (or more) clutch catches as Cooley?
- Can Davis make as many difficult/acrobatic catches when the ball is off-target as Cooley?

There's probably more I could add to this list, but you get the point. There's a long list of things, tangible and intangible, that should be considered by coaches when it comes to offering up a player like Cooley for trade.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 05:09 PM ----------


We'll see how things look after FA...But i hear you though. Based on the draft, i think Shanny will stick with his plan on getting younger to build for the long term, which i actually like.

I do, too :yes:...but I don't think Shanahan's gonna dismiss the value that reliable, consistently productive veteran starters bring to the team, no matter how much promise the back-up has. I also think Shanahan is in no way, shape or form gonna tell himself that the Redskins won't be truly competitive for another 3 years lol :)...he'd never use that as a reason for trading someone like Cooley.

[TANAMAN]

I'm arguing something slightly different. I'm saying different vets have different values. Cooley is one of the few on this team that really sets the right tone and always gives effort. Quite a few of our aging vets don't. More, you want some of your best players to provide the best example. That's why Shawn Springs practicing in Arizona while not effecting Shawn's play was detrimental. That's why Moss and Portis doing their own thing in Florida didn't increase team chemistry and make the team excel. Cooley is the vet on offense with status who can be a role model. Who else do we have? Anthony Armstrong can't fulfill that role. Banks can't. Moss can't. Rabach can't. Beck and Grossman don't have the gravitas to pull it off. Torrain can't. The only guy we have with stature on offense is Cooley. That's it. Moss might be gone. Moss also isn't the guy you want players emulating. He loafs in practice and even in games sometimes. We've all seen him jog routes during running plays cuing the dbs or giving up on plays before the whistle.

So, that's why I don't think it'd be wise to trade Cooley for a guy high on potential but nowhere near the same in production. Besides, a guy with the nickname sleepy just doesn't sound like a locker room leader to me :silly:

With it being put that way I absolutely agree with you. And I'm in no way saying Davis can replace the veteran presence that Cooley brings to this team which is badly in need of leadership. And no sleepy isn't a great nickname for a locker room leader.....lol. I guess I'm just so damn tired of us trading our draft picks away for players knocking on 30's door, then I watch that team not skip a beat because they had some young guy on the bench ready to fill the spot and on top of that they bolster their roster the next year with our draft picks. I just want to be that team this time.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 08:43 PM ----------


As for Davis being as good as Cooley, we'd have to ask ourselves:

- Does Davis understand the offensive scheme and his responsibilities on plays as well as or better than Cooley?
- Does Davis run his routes as well as or better than Cooley?
- Does Davis block as well as or better than Cooley?
- Does Davis have a better dropped pass percentage than Cooley?
- Does Davis approach his profession and his practice/meetings/playbook as professionally as Cooley?
- Is Davis a better leader than Cooley?
- Is Davis as reliable or more reliable than Cooley?
- Will Davis instruct the other TEs in his unit as well as Cooley?
- Will Davis make as many (or more) clutch catches as Cooley?
- Can Davis make as many difficult/acrobatic catches when the ball is off-target as Cooley?

There's probably more I could add to this list, but you get the point. There's a long list of things, tangible and intangible, that should be considered by coaches when it comes to offering up a player like Cooley for trade.

I also think Shanahan is in no way, shape or form gonna tell himself that the Redskins won't be truly competitive for another 3 years lol ...he'd never use that as a reason for trading someone like Cooley.

CF with all due respect, I know the game, and I see where you're coming from, but honestly you can only answer a few of those questions about Cooley himself unless you have access to coaches film, daily practice, or direct communication with coaches. Plus in none of those catagories does Cooley jump off the charts to me. And don't get me wrong I'm not bashing Cooley I like him, but I as a fan can only go on what I can see, which is production vs. opportunity. Cooley is consistantly productive and is a better player today than Davis is, but Davis for the opportunities he's been afforded has shown that he could possibly be just as good if not better due to his advanced athletic ability. I truly don't believe we'll ever know if Davis could be better than Cooley for us because after this season he will probably leave for free and sign with a team where he can start.

I also never said that Shanahan said anything I said I don't believe we'll be competitive for 2-3 years, and my main reason for trading Cooley was that we had a younger player behind him that I believe is ready to take the next step and be the starter. I actually said if a team is in position to compete for a title then keeping the vet is the way to go. My opinion is that we aren't if the coaches opinion is that we are then so be it.

[Skinzfever2010]

With it being put that way I absolutely agree with you. And I'm in no way saying Davis can replace the veteran presence that Cooley brings to this team which is badly in need of leadership. And no sleepy isn't a great nickname for a locker room leader.....lol. I guess I'm just so damn tired of us trading our draft picks away for players knocking on 30's door, then I watch that team not skip a beat because they had some young guy on the bench ready to fill the spot and on top of that they bolster their roster the next year with our draft picks. I just want to be that team this time.

---------- Post added July-6th-2011 at 08:43 PM ----------



CF with all due respect, I know the game, and I see where you're coming from, but honestly you can only answer a few of those questions about Cooley himself unless you have access to coaches film, daily practice, or direct communication with coaches. Plus in none of those catagories does Cooley jump off the charts to me. And don't get me wrong I'm not bashing Cooley I like him, but I as a fan can only go on what I can see, which is production vs. opportunity. Cooley is consistantly productive and is a better player today than Davis is, but Davis for the opportunities he's been afforded has shown that he could possibly be just as good if not better due to his advanced athletic ability. I truly don't believe we'll ever know if Davis could be better than Cooley for us because after this season he will probably leave for free and sign with a team where he can start.

I also never said that Shanahan said anything I said I don't believe we'll be competitive for 2-3 years, and my main reason for trading Cooley was that we had a younger player behind him that I believe is ready to take the next step and be the starter. I actually said if a team is in position to compete for a title then keeping the vet is the way to go. My opinion is that we aren't if the coaches opinion is that we are then so be it.

You my friend need to be doing an internship with the FO because YOU GET IT.

Hail!

[TANAMAN]

You my friend need to be doing an internship with the FO because YOU GET IT.

Hail!

Thanks, you just don't know how much of a dream come true that would be.

[Califan007]

I guess I'm just so damn tired of us trading our draft picks away for players knocking on 30's door, then I watch that team not skip a beat because they had some young guy on the bench ready to fill the spot and on top of that they bolster their roster the next year with our draft picks. I just want to be that team this time.
I can't think of ANY starters "knocking on 30's door" that we traded draft picks for, can you?

TJ Duckett wasn't a starter, and was 25 at the time. Brandon Lloyd was 25 at the time. Jason Taylor was 33. So not sure who you're referring to, there.

Teams that don't "miss a beat" after trading a starter don't transition smoothly simply because they have a capable back-up waiting...they can do this without missing a beat because their entire organization is sound and established, from coaches to GM to offensive and defensive schemes. When your franchise is that established in its goals then you have the luxury of letting some players go sooner than you'd like in order to help keep things going forward. When you're in the situation the Skins are in--new FO, new coaches, new offensive and defensive schemes, and coming off three losing seasons in the last 5 years--that's a luxury we can't afford, imo.




CF with all due respect, I know the game, and I see where you're coming from, but honestly you can only answer a few of those questions about Cooley himself unless you have access to coaches film, daily practice, or direct communication with coaches.
That's my point lol...with so many here convinced that Davis is not only equal to Cooley, but even "better" than him, there are a lot of things we have zero clue about that should play a definite role in making that assumption. If Shanahan never contemplates shipping Cooley out for draft picks I'm gonna assume that it's because Cooley brings more to his entire game than we're willing to acknowledge.



Plus in none of those catagories does Cooley jump off the charts to me. And don't get me wrong I'm not bashing Cooley I like him, but I as a fan can only go on what I can see, which is production vs. opportunity.
But as smart fans we should acknowledge to ourselves that being a starting TE worth keeping involves far more than we can assess from our couches. We'd rather describe him as "unstoppable" and make it seem as if it's obvious that he could produce as well as, if not better than, Cooley.

And Cooley definitely does stand out to me as a team leader, someone who understands the value of team chemistry, who has been VERY vocal in the past about the value of his younger team mates being part of as much team-oriented activities as possible--and then leading by example by being at Redskins Park every chance he got. He does run really good routes (that's never been a knock on him during his career), and he definitely does jump off the charts to me in terms of making those catches of passes that were obviously off-the-mark. He's also established himself rather well as being someone who can make the much-needed catch when the game is close and the Skins need to march down the field.



Cooley is consistantly productive and is a better player today than Davis is, but Davis for the opportunities he's been afforded has shown that he could possibly be just as good if not better due to his advanced athletic ability.
Devin Thomas has an advanced athletic ability over pretty much every WR on the team. Athletic ability only gets you so much.

Fred Davis is pretty much a bull to bring down when he has the ball in his hands (as is Cooley), and he's good in the red zone (or seems to be, anyway), I'll give him that. I don't know if he brings the same level of scoring ability outside the red zone like Cooley does, though. All of Davis' TDs have been within the red zone.




I also never said that Shanahan said anything I said I don't believe we'll be competitive for 2-3 years
And I never said you did...I only said that fans claiming we won't be truly competitive for 2-3 years means zero in the debate about whether or not Cooley should be traded. Only Shanahan's views about the possibilities for the team should matter.

[TANAMAN]

Cali you've got it bro, I'm not going to continue to debate with you. I respect your opinion but I don't agree with it. I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine. We've both given our reasons for why we feel the way we do, so I say we agree to disagree. Cheers, and Hail To The Skins.

[bedlamVR]

CF with all due respect, I know the game, and I see where you're coming from, but honestly you can only answer a few of those questions about Cooley himself unless you have access to coaches film, daily practice, or direct communication with coaches. Plus in none of those catagories does Cooley jump off the charts to me. .

.

Really Cooley does not jump off the page to you ? Cooley is an excellent route runner - he has the knack of being in the right place at the right time he is exceptionally consistent . I posted the stats earlier about Davis and Cooleys drop rates and Davis is no where near as consistent -Davis has had opportunities, for example in 2009 he was the starter with a new coach new regime - there was never a better time to step up and Davis - didn't .

Since Cooley joined the team in 2004 there have been a handful of players in the NFL that have been more productive at the TE position and they tend to be on teams that are overall more established with better offensive schemes and players around them with better QBs throwing the ball . The skins fan base is like the anti Steelers who insist Tod Heap is the best TE in the NFL - Heap is a damn fine player but I think Cooley is a little bit better .

Also their is a tendency for players in the NFL to flash potential then disappear - i note with interest Brent Celek is not being touted as the next great NFL TE - Shokey was then wasn't etc etc .. Cooley has been very very consistant - throw him away and we will regret it regardless of the potential Davis has - Trading Cooley I just don't see the return being worth the loss .

If we are 2-3 years away from being competitive (which I am not sure about) then surely the best thing would be to trade Fred Davis now and have Cooley tutor his replacement .......then all we are trading is potential for potential ...

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Davis has had opportunities, for example in 2009 he was the starter with a new coach new regime -there was never a better time to step up and Davis - didn't .


Actually, Fred played very well after Cooley was injured.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviFr01/gamelog/2009/

[IrepDC]

Davis has already hinted at the fact that he will find a team that will use him if we don't. We can trade him or Cooley this year, or we can watch Davis walk next year. Fred isn't going to spend the prime of his career playing behind a guy he might be better than.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Davis has already hinted at the fact that he will find a team that will use him if we don't. We can trade him or Cooley this year, or we can watch Davis walk next year. Fred isn't going to spend the prime of his career playing behind a guy he might be better than.
I don't blame him. :(

[IrepDC]

I also think some people are still undervaluing draft picks. How can you all still say a 3rd or 4th round pick has no value when we got Hankerson in that slot this year? He's unproven now, but we definitely showed that there is value in those picks. That 3rd plus a late pick could be another Hankerson + Neild combo; two guys that have the potential to help this team immensely.

[RandyHolt]

Cooley has been double and triple covered in the red zone and goal to go for years. Our tiny and thin WR corps, often not even on the field in the old Gibbs 1WR goal line package ft. Thrash. :doh: I think on a team with a deep WR crew, Cooley has more TD's and recognition.

Davis vs Cooley, I call a draw. Even hands and speed and playmaking. Davis is better at hurding and break tackle, Cooley a better blocker.

[Coach Janky Spanky]

Davis vs Cooley, I call a draw. Even hands and speed and playmaking. Davis is better at hurding and break tackle, Cooley a better blocker.

I'd agree with this, which is why I'd like to trade Cooley now. Cooley is probably more valued around the league and provides better trade value. Meanwhile, Davis is younger and potentially has more upside.

[addicted]

I agree with the premise of your post however, again I'm not saying trade every vet. This thread is talking about Cooley and that is the situation I was reffering to. All I'm saying in a nut shell is, if we have to decide between losing Davis who I believe to be a quality TE from the opportunities he's had and losing Cooley who's 4 years older, for this team which I don't believe to be in position to win now would be a mistake.

So many of you are missing some serious points saying Cooley should be traded and Davis kept that I'd like any of you to speak on:

Point 1 - Cooley is under contract for the next 3 years. To trade him we would take a cap hit. Trading Davis would not be adding millions to dead money. Why would we want to do that?

Point 2 - Just because Davis is younger doesn't mean he is as good as Cooley. What makes anyone believe that Davis is the player that Cooley is? Sure he had that productive run when Cooley was injured but he isn't the route runner or the receiver or blocker that Cooley is. We would be choosing the lesser player over the better athlete simply because he's younger if we traded Cooley. Too many of you are always wrapped around the "age" of a player ignoring his skill set. Does anyone think that Davis is the better TE?

Point 3 - Speaking about age Cooley today is 28 years old. Tony Gonzalez is the best receiving TE in the history of the league and he is 35 years old and still productive. Why are some of you thinking that Cooley won't be productive like this in 7 years? Regardless of if it will take 2 or 3 years to be a championship team thinking that Cooley can't be productive for us then to me is silly

Point 4 - Last point. Davis has been on this team for the past 3 years and barely given a chance to become the player he thinks he can be. The comments from him along with the backlash he received from the fan base because he missed his alarm in his rookie year and all of the combined mess that's gone on since he joined the team most likely would have some sort of effect on him. He is a FA next year. I'd love to see some sort of guarantee that he is willing to re-sign with us but fact is he might just want to leave anyway, those wanting us to trade Cooley today need to accept that until that extension is signed that we could very well lose both players next year. It's wishful thinking to overspend on this position and depending on Fred's feelings today I can see a player just wanting to leave. If that happens we screwed ourselves. We avoid this by trading the contract year player and keeping the guy who is under contract.

And for the record Cooley isn't my favorite Redskins nor is this post based on homerism, to me it's smart business. No more no less. Trade Davis this year.

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 10:48 AM ----------


Then Davis needs to beat him out and not be handed his opportunity.

If they were equal in ability or Davis was the better player don't you think he would have by now? That's the problem imo. Davis has age over Cooley, nothing else. Cooley is the better player

[Chump Bailey]

Too many of you are always wrapped around the "age" of a player ignoring his skill set.

Completely agree with this.

[MartinC]

I also think some people are still undervaluing draft picks. How can you all still say a 3rd or 4th round pick has no value when we got Hankerson in that slot this year? He's unproven now, but we definitely showed that there is value in those picks. That 3rd plus a late pick could be another Hankerson + Neild combo; two guys that have the potential to help this team immensely.

The point about draft picks is you have no idea what you are getting - Hankerson may be great or he may be a bust. We know with Cooley we have a Pro Bowl level TE - trade him for a 3rd round pick and you may end up with a guy who gets cut after his first year or a super star. I actually think fans can over value draft picks rather than the opposite in relation to trading proven vets for picks.

[Skins4SB]

What a joke. Tell me which of those TEs have had a revolving door at QB and different systems to perform under. Not to mention, our offense has been anemic. I'll take a "declining" Cooley over many TEs in the league.

[Reaper 21]

i feel as if we are in a brees and rivers situation, however you want to put it but san diego was not to wise to give up brees but didnt do all that bad with rivers either way they are ok so if we can get a pick for cooley then we might want to consider giving him a shot to win a title he was a great player for us, and would help another team. while we can focus on other parts of this team that are needed.

cooley for second sounds just right

[Califan007]

i feel as if we are in a brees and rivers situation, however you want to put it but san diego was not to wise to give up brees but didnt do all that bad with rivers either way they are ok so if we can get a pick for cooley then we might want to consider giving him a shot to win a title he was a great player for us, and would help another team. while we can focus on other parts of this team that are needed.

cooley for second sounds just right
Except the Chargers spent a top-5 pick on Rivers, so it was obvious they wanted him as the starting QB all along. Also, Brees had been benched the season prior to drafting Rivers, and was coming off a bad shoulder injury when they decided to trade him. The fates aligned in such a way as to make trading Brees and promoting Rivers understandable. They didn't trade Brees simply because his back-up was good, too.

[Skinzfever2010]

Cooley deserves to play for a contender. He has done nothing but bust his ass here. Its not his fault he never had solid QB and legit WRs to accompany him. If the Pats, Chiefs, Falcons, or Texans need a TE and want to send us a 2nd or 3rd we need to Bruce to make this happen.

Hail!

[Califan007]

So many of you are missing some serious points saying Cooley should be traded and Davis kept that I'd like any of you to speak on:

Point 1 - Cooley is under contract for the next 3 years. To trade him we would take a cap hit. Trading Davis would not be adding millions to dead money. Why would we want to do that?

Point 2 - Just because Davis is younger doesn't mean he is as good as Cooley. What makes anyone believe that Davis is the player that Cooley is? Sure he had that productive run when Cooley was injured but he isn't the route runner or the receiver or blocker that Cooley is. We would be choosing the lesser player over the better athlete simply because he's younger if we traded Cooley. Too many of you are always wrapped around the "age" of a player ignoring his skill set. Does anyone think that Davis is the better TE?

Point 3 - Speaking about age Cooley today is 28 years old. Tony Gonzalez is the best receiving TE in the history of the league and he is 35 years old and still productive. Why are some of you thinking that Cooley won't be productive like this in 7 years? Regardless of if it will take 2 or 3 years to be a championship team thinking that Cooley can't be productive for us then to me is silly

Point 4 - Last point. Davis has been on this team for the past 3 years and barely given a chance to become the player he thinks he can be. The comments from him along with the backlash he received from the fan base because he missed his alarm in his rookie year and all of the combined mess that's gone on since he joined the team most likely would have some sort of effect on him. He is a FA next year. I'd love to see some sort of guarantee that he is willing to re-sign with us but fact is he might just want to leave anyway, those wanting us to trade Cooley today need to accept that until that extension is signed that we could very well lose both players next year. It's wishful thinking to overspend on this position and depending on Fred's feelings today I can see a player just wanting to leave. If that happens we screwed ourselves. We avoid this by trading the contract year player and keeping the guy who is under contract.

And for the record Cooley isn't my favorite Redskins nor is this post based on homerism, to me it's smart business. No more no less. Trade Davis this year.

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 10:48 AM ----------



If they were equal in ability or Davis was the better player don't you think he would have by now? That's the problem imo. Davis has age over Cooley, nothing else. Cooley is the better player

Good post :applause:

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 10:11 AM ----------


Cooley deserves to play for a contender. He has done nothing but bust his ass here. Its not his fault he never had solid QB and legit WRs to accompany him. If the Pats, Chiefs, Falcons, or Texans need a TE and want to send us a 2nd or 3rd we need to Bruce to make this happen.

Hail!
So we should weaken our team in order to give Cooley props lol...

[Skinzfever2010]

Good post :applause:

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 10:11 AM ----------


So we should weaken our team in order to give Cooley props lol...

Fred can fill the void nicely and the extra pick will help fill one of the many gaps we have on our team. Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to move forward. These types of moves happen all the time in the NFL.

#BYCHRIS

HAIL!

[MartinC]

Fred can fill the void nicely and the extra pick will help fill one of the many gaps we have on our team. Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to move forward. These types of moves happen all the time in the NFL.

#BYCHRIS

HAIL!

Correction - the extra pick MIGHT fill one of the gaps on our team. He MIGHT of course turn into a bust and Davis when asked to carry the load full time MIGHT not deliver and we end up in worse shape than if we just keep Cooley. Lots of mights.

[Skinzfever2010]

Correction - the extra pick MIGHT fill one of the gaps on our team. He MIGHT of course turn into a bust and Davis when asked to carry the load full time MIGHT not deliver and we end up in worse shape than if we just keep Cooley. Lots of mights.

Yep but one thing we can call a "safe assumption" in this big game of "might" is chances are we're a 5-6 win team next year and Christopher busts his ass yet again and receives nothing but stats and game checks (maybe a Probowl nod). No Playoffs No Championship No Super Bowl ring. He deserves better.

[MartinC]

Yep but one thing we can call a "safe assumption" in this big game of "might" is chances are we're a 5-6 win team next year and Christopher busts his ass yet again and receives nothing but stats and game checks (maybe a Probowl nod). No Playoffs No Championship No Super Bowl ring. He deserves better.

If I'm the GM/Coach my concern is what makes the team better not doing a trade to help out a deserving player no matter how good a guy he is.

[Skinzfever2010]

If I'm the GM/Coach my concern is what makes the team better not doing a trade to help out a deserving player no matter how good a guy he is.

I almost forgot Chris runs the risk of getting hurt again next season. That would be a real blow to our chances of getting anything in return. These types of moves happen all the time man. Thats why being a GM is a tough job. I'm sure Vinny would keep Chris around as long as he possibly could if he was still here. He kept Clinton as long as he could and that movie didn't end well. Coach Shanahan and Mr.Allen will make the right decision at the end of the day.

[bedlamVR]

Actually, Fred played very well after Cooley was injured.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviFr01/gamelog/2009/

Okay how about last year - Davis and Cooley were on the same stage - Davis coming off an impressive 2009 - Cooley a past probowler top 5/6 at his position but coming off a major injury - New coach, new offense and new chances to impress - What happens - Cooley works his butt off and carries on from where he left off . He was the second most targeted guy on the team targeted well over 100 times - had 77 receptions for a 61% success rate - From a number of sources I found he had 6 drops last season - 6 that were his fault - Davis had 3 drops - but he had 3 off just less than 30 targets - Davis to me is a very very good back up - 2009 may be a career year for him in terms of yards and receptions or he may still flourish if he decides he wants to ply his trade somewhere else - but realistically to even get a shot at the big money he is looking for he has to step it up big time . There is a reason Cooley got the lions share of the looks - not because he was entitled or because the QBs owed him anything but because he worked his ass off for it - he was there when we needed that 3rd down conversion he found the space to give the QB the safety valve and the thing with Cooley is i seldom see him go down on first contact . Davis has made plays but not nearly on a consistent enough basis and his babyish whining to the press about not being given a chance (in 4 years fred - 4 years) really doesnt impress the coaches .... .

[Skinzfever2010]

Okay how about last year - Davis and Cooley were on the same stage - Davis coming off an impressive 2009 - Cooley a past probowler top 5/6 at his position but coming off a major injury - New coach, new offense and new chances to impress - What happens - Cooley works his butt off and carries on from where he left off . He was the second most targeted guy on the team targeted well over 100 times - had 77 receptions for a 61% success rate - From a number of sources I found he had 6 drops last season - 6 that were his fault - Davis had 3 drops - but he had 3 off just less than 30 targets - Davis to me is a very very good back up - 2009 may be a career year for him in terms of yards and receptions or he may still flourish if he decides he wants to ply his trade somewhere else - but realistically to even get a shot at the big money he is looking for he has to step it up big time . There is a reason Cooley got the lions share of the looks - not because he was entitled or because the QBs owed him anything but because he worked his ass off for it - he was there when we needed that 3rd down conversion he found the space to give the QB the safety valve and the thing with Cooley is i seldom see him go down on first contact . Davis has made plays but not nearly on a consistent enough basis and his babyish whining to the press about not being given a chance (in 4 years fred - 4 years) really doesnt impress the coaches .... .

Your post is awesome. His handwork deserves to be rewarded. Another year of 77 recps on a 5 win team is irrelevant if your trying to become a champion. It takes a big fan to type something like that. I met Chris at training camp in 2005 and hes a great guy (TRUE Redskin). Its time to let him become a truly great TE. Truly great players play on great teams and compete for championships. Chris has been great on lackluster teams. He deserves a shot elsewhere. Bruce needs to make this happen.

Hail!

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Davis has made plays but not nearly on a consistent enough basis and his babyish whining to the press about not being given a chance (in 4 years fred - 4 years) really doesnt impress the coaches .... .



Personally, I don't see any "whining" in the post below. Fred is just acknowledging the reality of the situation.

The following year, Davis was drafted in the second round (48th overall) by the Redskins.

“I was definitely surprised,” he said. “I didn’t know much about them, but they already had a good tight end in Chris Cooley. I knew they had a great history and that they had won multiple Super Bowls back in the day, but that’s about it. I didn’t even talk to them or work out for them.”

Typically, award-winning players end up on a team in need of an upgrade at that particular position. In Washington, Davis found himself behind a Pro Bowl tight end who also happened to be his team’s most popular player. Not exactly a dream scenario for a new guy hoping to make a strong first impression.

“I mean, it does get frustrating sometimes, but you’ve got to think about it and be thankful you’re in the league,” Davis said. “In the NFL, it’s all about opportunity. I get people asking me, ‘Why aren’t you performing better?’ But how do you expect me to show my best and show my abilities when I’m not getting an opportunity?

“He’s the guy getting paid the big money,” he continued. “He’s the guy who has made a name for himself as a Redskin. That’s just the way it goes. I’m not going to sit around and cry about it. I’ve just got to do what I can to be ready so when I get a chance, I make the most of it. I’m either going to do it here, or eventually I’ll end up on another team that needs me more. I’ve just got to continue to prove to everyone that I can do it.”

[pjfootballer]

I'm all for getting younger, but the team still needs a certain amount of veterans on the team. TE is the only area we are deep at and I don't want to give up one area of depth to save another. Too many Redskins fans see what the Eagles are doing, but don't realize, they still haven't won a championship. There are some veterans that we need(ed) to get rid of (Portis, Dockery, Fatass) and some you need to keep (Cooley, Daniels, Fletch, Moss) to have a good balance of youth and experience.

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 02:28 PM ----------


Your post is awesome. His handwork deserves to be rewarded. Another year of 77 recps on a 5 win team is irrelevant if your trying to become a champion. It takes a big fan to type something like that. I met Chris at training camp in 2005 and hes a great guy (TRUE Redskin). Its time to let him become a truly great TE. Truly great players play on great teams and compete for championships. Chris has been great on lackluster teams. He deserves a shot elsewhere. Bruce needs to make this happen.

Hail!

As a GM, you do whats best for the team, not one player.

[Skinzfever2010]

I'm all for getting younger, but the team still needs a certain amount of veterans on the team. TE is the only area we are deep at and I don't want to give up one area of depth to save another. Too many Redskins fans see what the Eagles are doing, but don't realize, they still haven't won a championship. There are some veterans that we need(ed) to get rid of (Portis, Dockery, Fatass) and some you need to keep (Cooley, Daniels, Fletch, Moss) to have a good balance of youth and experience.

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 02:28 PM ----------



As a GM, you do whats best for the team, not one player.


One of the best GMs in the business did whats best for the player and team in NE back in 2009. He sent a backup to KC because he had no chance at becoming a starter there. It happens all the time my friend. Open your eyes.

Hail!

[MartinC]

One of the best GMs in the business did whats best for the player and team in NE back in 2009. He sent a backup to KC because he had no chance at becoming a starter there. It happens all the time my friend. Open your eyes.

Hail!

Right. But Chris Cooley is the starter here and in his prime whatever Kirwan say. He is not a vet well on the down swing being traded for a ham sandwich and a last ride in the sun before retirement.

Look if the coaches decide it's in the best interest of team development to trade Cooley I'm fine with that - they know more these guys than we do as fans. I would surprised if I happens though not because they will keep Cooley for sentimental reasons or to sell jerseys but because he is the best TE on our squad and indeed one of the best in the league.

[IrepDC]

It's just my personal opinion that our offense would not skip a beat if we had to rely on Fred Davis at the TE position. I believe that he can do what we need our TE to do and be successful at it. I also believe that Davis is going to go to another team next year if we don't trade him or Cooley this year. I really don't see that big of a difference in our offense with the two so trading one would be fine with me.

[pjfootballer]

One of the best GMs in the business did whats best for the player and team in NE back in 2009. He sent a backup to KC because he had no chance at becoming a starter there. It happens all the time my friend. Open your eyes.

Hail!

I seriously doubt Belichick really gave a rats ass about Matt Cassells career. He has a thoroughbred with Brady and saw an opportunity to garner a high pick for Cassell (2nd rounder) while the getting was good. The move was made for the Patriots, not Matt Cassell. I think your eyes are the ones that are closed. When has Belichick ever been duped on a trade. Never. This move was for the Patriots.

[Reaper 21]

Except the Chargers spent a top-5 pick on Rivers, so it was obvious they wanted him as the starting QB all along. Also, Brees had been benched the season prior to drafting Rivers, and was coming off a bad shoulder injury when they decided to trade him. The fates aligned in such a way as to make trading Brees and promoting Rivers understandable. They didn't trade Brees simply because his back-up was good, too.


the chargers didnt trade brees he was a fa. and when rivers missed all of camp becasue of a hold out brees stepped up as the starter and was legit. thats how he became such a highly recruited fa by the dolphins and saints. the chargers were thinking about keeping him but had already made a top 5 selection that had to get his shot.

[ConnSKINS26]

I think our lack of mid-round picks under Gibbs has made people forget what a goldmine that area of the draft can be, and how important it is.

[ConnSKINS26]

MartinC- sorry, reply fail...meant for Skinzfever2010

---------- Post added July-7th-2011 at 11:57 PM ----------



Am I reading your post right? Trade a top 8 player (Cooley) at his position for a big question mark?

It would depend on the compensation. But if you really think that Davis can perform at a level close enough to Cooley to make it worth it, then yes.

And Cooley's stats might rate "top-8" (which is a totally arbitrary number), but there are more than 8 TE's in the league that i'd rather have, despite the fact that he's one of my favorite Skins.

Downplay a 3rd rounder all you want, but the 2nd-4th rounds are where champions are built, both in starting talent and quality depth. If we aren't going to have Cooley and Davis for more than this year anyways, and believe in Fred, then why not do it?

[Califan007]

the chargers didnt trade brees he was a fa. and when rivers missed all of camp becasue of a hold out brees stepped up as the starter and was legit. thats how he became such a highly recruited fa by the dolphins and saints. the chargers were thinking about keeping him but had already made a top 5 selection that had to get his shot.

I could have sworn he was traded :ols:...

[ATLredskin]

I don't think some of you guys get it. What is the point in having 2 good tight ends when you are not really using the lesser one. You trade one to get better at another position instead of saying you are stacked at a position you really don't NEED to be stacked at. Plus tight ends come a dime a dozen. Aaron Rodgers was fine without Finley. When we took Shockey out during Giants SB year they were fine with Boss. Please Cooley is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. Finley was a 3rd round pick. Aaron Hernandez was a 4th round pick. Brees soon to be favorite target (Jimmy Graham) was a 3rd round pick. Cooley can EASILY be replaced...if we take Luck then I hope we take Flenner, his tight end from Stanford.

[bedlamVR]

It would depend on the compensation. But if you really think that Davis can perform at a level close enough to Cooley to make it worth it, then yes.

And Cooley's stats might rate "top-8" (which is a totally arbitrary number), but there are more than 8 TE's in the league that i'd rather have, despite the fact that he's one of my favorite Skins.

Downplay a 3rd rounder all you want, but the 2nd-4th rounds are where champions are built, both in starting talent and quality depth. If we aren't going to have Cooley and Davis for more than this year anyways, and believe in Fred, then why not do it?

I suspect that the more than 8 TEs as a little argumentative - but I want to address the issue of the value of draft picks - they are gambling chips - would you put your house and wife for a role of the dice ?

Proven players rarely bring their value in chips (draft picks) but draft picks have value on draft day - This year demonstrated with a little sacrifice you can generate more draft picks with relative ease ....

[Califan007]

I don't think some of you guys get it. What is the point in having 2 good tight ends when you are not really using the lesser one. You trade one to get better at another position instead of saying you are stacked at a position you really don't NEED to be stacked at.
The whole idea is to be "stacked" at EVERY position, or as close to it as possible.



Plus tight ends come a dime a dozen.
Then that more or less blows a hole in the theory that we could get a good draft pick from trading either Davis or Cooley, huh lol...if TEs really are a dime a dozen, then we MIGHT get a low 5th rounder for one of them, if we're lucky. I think we could trade back with one of our two 4th rounders and pick up that extra low 5th round pick without having to trade either player.


Cooley can EASILY be replaced..

Then so can Davis. Let's trade him instead, and then replace him with any "dime a dozen" 4th round TEs :thumbsup:...

[MartinC]

I don't think some of you guys get it. What is the point in having 2 good tight ends when you are not really using the lesser one. You trade one to get better at another position instead of saying you are stacked at a position you really don't NEED to be stacked at. Plus tight ends come a dime a dozen. Aaron Rodgers was fine without Finley. When we took Shockey out during Giants SB year they were fine with Boss. Please Cooley is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. Finley was a 3rd round pick. Aaron Hernandez was a 4th round pick. Brees soon to be favorite target (Jimmy Graham) was a 3rd round pick. Cooley can EASILY be replaced...if we take Luck then I hope we take Flenner, his tight end from Stanford.

So given TEs are so easy to find just what trade value do you think Cooley has? If you were an NFL GM what would you give up for him?

[ATLredskin]

The whole idea is to be "stacked" at EVERY position, or as close to it as possible.

But we have needs....too much needs to be stacked at somewhat of a irrelevant position. Even if we were not stacked at the TE position i'm sure that would be the last thing Shanahan would be worrying about.


Then that more or less blows a hole in the theory that we could get a good draft pick from trading either Davis or Cooley, huh lol...if TEs really are a dime a dozen, then we MIGHT get a low 5th rounder for one of them, if we're lucky. I think we could trade back with one of our two 4th rounders and pick up that extra low 5th round pick without having to trade either player.

You should check to see what Gonzalez, Shockey, and Winslow went for on the market. Two of those being stupid trades for the Saints and Bucs. The Falcons is a running team so Gonzalez made sense plus Ryan needed another target to throw to. A smart team though would use tight ends like running backs are used today, a committee. A blocking TE, a pass catching TE, and maybe a red zone TE. Hell even Mike Vabrel was making plays at tight end. New England has it right with (in order of what I just said) Crumpler, Hernandez, and Gronkowski. Like I said a dime a dozen...at least test the market and see what you can get...


Then so can Davis. Let's trade him instead, and then replace him with any "dime a dozen" 4th round TEs :thumbsup:...

Well I wouldn't mind trading him either, but it is still about the youth movement. Its funny how everyone love Cooley though, but don't see how he is part of the problem. The problem that we have over the years of scoring in the redzone. See Cooley is not your typical TE. He relies on his speed and finding the soft spots, but in the redzone those spots are very limited which is why our QBs over the years would benefit from having a big body TE that is "always open" because of his size. Cooley is not the type that you can just throw it up to and that is what we are missing...

[SpacePenguin]

I'd say Shanahan showed how easy it is to generate draft picks this year if you go in with most of your picks. Keeping that in mind, why not keep both TEs. Like many others have said you're not going to get much for either one.

Maybe if the interior line(Tiddlywinks Rabach) is improved through FA, then Kyle will actually get 2 tight ends on the field more often. Even if not, Cooley seems to be getting banged up much more as he ages, so Davis may end up playing major time more years than not,even if both TEs are around long term.

If Davis wants a big contract, keep in mind he's a Vinny drafted player. Shanahan may prefer Paulsen, time will tell.

[pjfootballer]

Aaron Rodgers was fine without Finley. When we took Shockey out during Giants SB year they were fine with Boss. Please Cooley is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. Finley was a 3rd round pick.

Because Green Bay built up the position with depth. Something we never do. We have depth at TE. Leave it alone. Why cut one area of depth to fill a hole that has no depth. Now you have 2 positions with no depth. Use draft picks and free agency to fill the other holes.


Well I wouldn't mind trading him either, but it is still about the youth movement. Its funny how everyone love Cooley though, but don't see how he is part of the problem. The problem that we have over the years of scoring in the redzone. See Cooley is not your typical TE. He relies on his speed and finding the soft spots, but in the redzone those spots are very limited which is why our QBs over the years would benefit from having a big body TE that is "always open" because of his size. Cooley is not the type that you can just throw it up to and that is what we are missing...

The Redskins in general cannot get into the endzone. Its not all Cooley's fault. I believe we are among the leaders in field goal attempts each year because of our inability to get into the endzone as an offense.

[ConnSKINS26]

Cooley is our best offensive player and his stats while on a terrible team cannot be dismised.

I'm not dismissing them. I'm saying that even on a terrible team, SOMEONE has to get the receptions. That's all. I'm not saying that Cooley isn't good. Just that his stats aren't a reliable way to measure whether he is or not, by themselves.

[TANAMAN]

Because Green Bay built up the position with depth. Something we never do. We have depth at TE. Leave it alone. Why cut one area of depth to fill a hole that has no depth. Now you have 2 positions with no depth. Use draft picks and free agency to fill the other holes.

I see what your saying about depth, which is something we seriously lack. The problem with this theory is, we're going to (more than likely) lose Fred Davis if Chris is still on the roster when his free agency period comes up NEXT YEAR. What young player is going to want to spend his career behind a veteran player when he knows he has the ability and can have a chance to start somewhere else. In the posted media quotes he all but says it himself, he's gone after this year if he's still not getting any real opportunities. And there goes your depth theory. The killer part is he's shown promise with every opportunity he's been given. There's really not a hell of a lot more that Fred can do at this point. He's simply not getting the playing time because he has a quality veteran ahead of him.

The point trying to be made by the pro trade folks including myself is, if you're going to lose one anyway at least get something out of it. And with that I look at it like this, Fred is 4 years younger and he's not THAT far behind Cooley in ability, he may lack some of the intangibles but that MAY, and I know it's a big may, but it may just come with time. What I don't want is to watch him go to another team, turn into the pro bowl caliber TE I truly believe he has the capability of becoming and in 3 years when he's squarely in his prime we're looking for Chris's replacement. We could instead trade Chris get what we can get for him and hopefully that pick turns into a productive starter for us. Meanwhile Fred is the starting TE and that's not that much of a step back just as it wasn't when Cooley went down before. For a team in rebuild mode not expected to be overly competitive, taking a step back to set yourself up to take two forward is the way to go. IMO of course.

[NLC1054]

I think what gets lost on people in the "trade Chris Cooley/trade Fred Davis" debate is what exactly Mike means when he says we have depth at the position. Having depth at the position doesn't mean just having guys, it means having three guys who can all start and can all contribute and can all succeed.

So why, if the only place you have any depth and have three players capable of starting, would you trade any of those three guys, Cooley and Davis in particular?

As for Fred not getting enough playing time, towards the end of the season, I saw a lot more sets where he'd line up at tight end and Cooley would be split out wide or in motion or something. But you know how it is with Mike; people earn their playing time, and with a nickname like "Sleepy"...you have to practice hard, you have to earn your way onto the field, and if Fred didn't get a lot of looks, it has to be because he can't beat out Cooley. I mean, that's the bottom line, whether you agree with the philosophy or not.

That's why Fred's dropped a lot of weight and is eating and training better this season. If he wants his touches and watches a shiny new contract he knows he's going to have to put in the work to get on the field, either to get a job here or elsewhere. And there's only so many catches to go around. I mean, this season we could actually have a pretty decent core of receivers that can cause all sorts of match up nightmares, so maybe both tight ends don't end up getting lots of catches.

[stevemcqueen1]

Your post is awesome. His handwork deserves to be rewarded. Another year of 77 recps on a 5 win team is irrelevant if your trying to become a champion. It takes a big fan to type something like that. I met Chris at training camp in 2005 and hes a great guy (TRUE Redskin). Its time to let him become a truly great TE. Truly great players play on great teams and compete for championships. Chris has been great on lackluster teams. He deserves a shot elsewhere. Bruce needs to make this happen.

Hail!

Why in the hell would you assume Cooley wants to leave? Why in the hell would leaving help him get better? Most players never want to leave a good situation where they are producing at a high level.

That's a really stupid assumption.