CNN: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway; shooter fires at youth camp

[sacase]

I am suprised no one posted this. I am a little shocked that Norway would be targetted.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/?hpt=hp_t1



[Update: 1:23 p.m. ET, 7:23 p.m. Oslo] One person has been arrested on a Norwegian island where someone dressed as a policeman has been firing at a Labour Youth Party Camp, a police representative tells Norwegian state broadcaster NRK. Witnesses tell NRK the scene is chaotic and many shots have been fired.



[10 a.m. ET, 4 p.m. Oslo] An explosion rocked a part of central Oslo, Norway, on Friday, state TV reported. State TV broadcaster NRK said on its website that windows in several buildings had been blown out and people were in the street bleeding. News reports suggest the government building has been affected.

[Predicto]

I am suprised no one posted this. I am a little shocked that Norway would be targetted.



My understanding is that no one yet knows who did this. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Al Qaeda terrorists, but they haven't said yet.

If Norway was targeted by Muslim extremists, it is probably because of the cartoons of the Prophed Muhammed thing - I think Norway was in the middle of that.

[abdcskins]

Scared maggots too weak to fight like real soldiers. I hate them all.

RIP to the dead.

[ixcuincle]

Condolences. I had the opportunity to visit Oslo as well as Norway 2 years ago. Great country.

[Predicto]

Scared maggots too weak to fight like real soldiers. I hate them all.



Welp, that is how assymetrical warfare has worked, pretty much back to the day when those cowardly minutemen hid behind trees and shot at the Brits instead of standing in brave formations and fighting like real soldiers.

(no, i'm not sympathetic to terrorists - they are evil as can be, and targeting civilians is never, ever justifiable. But I wouldn't call it cowardly to decline to "fight like real soldiers" against a US military that can kill you from a thousand miles away with a drone anytime they want. I call that basic survival tactics.)

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 11:09 AM ----------




RIP to the dead.

Absolutely. RIP.

[DeaconTheVillain]

Looks serious

1 confirmed dead
http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2011/07/352723806-1.jpg

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2011/07/352721715.jpg

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2011/07/352731201.jpg

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 02:13 PM ----------


My understanding is that no one yet knows who did this. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Al Qaeda terrorists, but they haven't said yet.

If Norway was targeted by Muslim extremists, it is probably because of the cartoons of the Prophed Muhammed thing - I think Norway was in the middle of that.

This is what Norwegian gov't is now reporting. That it is indeed retaliation for the Muhammed drawing.

[abdcskins]

Welp, that is how assymetrical warfare has worked, pretty much back to the day when those cowardly minutemen hid behind trees and shot at the Brits instead of standing in brave formations and fighting like real soldiers.

(no, i'm not sympathetic to terrorists - they are evil as can be, and targeting civilians is never, ever justifiable. But I wouldn't call it cowardly to decline to "fight like real soldiers" against a US military that can kill you from a thousand miles away with a drone anytime they want. I call that basic survival tactics.)



I respect your opinion but nothing you just said matters to me.

Who exactly would they be fighting anyway? Why are they trying to kill innocent civilians? They are cowards and pieces of scum that deserve to be annihilated. And Norway is not the US military.

[FanboyOf91]

Vancouver Sun (http://www.vancouversun.com/Live+Updates+Oslo+bombing/5144505/story.html), 1:22 PM:

Gunman description via @ketilbstensrud: "TV2, 1500 metres from Utøya, speaking to youths: "A man, 190 cm tall, blonde hair, light skin, athletic, disguised in police uniform"

2:03 PM:

This was also posted to a web forum today:


Praise be to God Nasser slaves combined and humiliating the people of shirk and kufr companions, prayer and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, his family and companions and after
The Almighty said: (then fight for God but do not cost yourself and rouse the believers may be that Allah keeps those who disbelieve and Allah is more powerful and in punishment) [women: 84]
Here have reached the countries of Europe is another message from the militants and further proof of the countries of Europe that the Mujahideen will not stand idly towards their war against Islam and Muslims.
Today has been targeting Norway to be a lesson and a lesson to the rest of Europe has already threatened us since the invasion of Stockholm more operations has asked European countries to withdraw their armies from the land of Afghanistan and stop its war against Islam and Muslims, and we repeat our warning again to the countries of Europe and tell them carried out the demands of the mujahideen, what you see is only the beginning and the next more.
The reasons for the targeting of Norway there are many of the most important of their participation in the occupation of Afghanistan and the abuse of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Praise God that enabled slaves to the combined .. and pray to God to save our brothers and our fighters everywhere.
Glory and praise God I bear witness that no god but You Astgrk and I repent to you.

Abu Suleiman Al-Nasser
Ansar al-Jihad of the world

However, to give ... some context -- Abu Suleiman Al-Nasser, Al-Qaeda's "military leader" was killed months ago. Although, it is reportedly used as a nom de guerre.

[DeaconTheVillain]

street view before bombings

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Market...&cbp=12,179.47

after bombings

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/174...ctive/978x.jpg

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Sighs.

It's an evil, evil World out there.

Hail.

[FanboyOf91]

Ugh!

http://twitter.com/#!/ketilbstensrud/status/94471217402224641


LATEST: Eye-witness on Utøya LIVE on NRK just said that he saw 20-30 dead youths floating by the shore. Shocking.

[thebluefood]

This is what Norwegian gov't is now reporting. That it is indeed retaliation for the Muhammed drawing.

Wasn't that, like, 5 years ago? Those Muslim extremists are just quick on the uptake.

RIP to the dead. This is absolutely disgusting.

[Destino]

I respect your opinion but nothing you just said matter to me.

Who exactly would they be fighting anyway? Why are they trying to kill innocent civilians? They are cowards and pieces of scum that deserve to be annihilated. And Norway is not the US military.

They seem like violent bigots to me. They've decided that those that do not share their religious views deserve to die. I wouldn't call them cowards frankly I don't think they fit that definition. They are murderous bigots out to spread their own brand of hatred and cause as much pain to those they hate as possible. The world has seen their kind before and I'm sure will see them again. There can be no doubt however that they will lose and turn into nothing more than another dark chapter in history books.

Hatred is a disease in all it's forms. This latest infection is in the process of being eliminated and it's no surprise those being systematically stamped out aren't going quietly. They are doomed and they know it.

[Thiebear]

If your fighting NORWAY of all places you're are a pathetic punk.
If your doing it over a cartoon drawing, you're a crazy pathetic punk.
convert or die is a horrible thought process past the 1400's

[jpyaks3]

The fact that the youth political camp was attacked suggests something local, something against the party rather than against Norway as a whole. Terrible situation especially as more news comes out from the island shooting.

[Skins_Fan82]

Damn! Those buildings got hit hard.

RIP to the dead and middle finger to the terrorists responsible...

[Hubbs]

My understanding is that no one yet knows who did this. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Al Qaeda terrorists, but they haven't said yet.

If Norway was targeted by Muslim extremists, it is probably because of the cartoons of the Prophed Muhammed thing - I think Norway was in the middle of that.

Wait, didn't the Mohammad drawing thing happen in the Netherlands?

[DeaconTheVillain]

It seems to me that some nut decided to use this situation as a chance to dress up like a policeman and open fire.

I don't the the shooting and the bomb is related.

[jpyaks3]

It seems to me that some nut decided to use this situation as a chance to dress up like a policeman and open fire.

I don't the the shooting and the bomb is related.

Vice Chief of Police is saying they are related.

[Teller]

I don't understand. It's this great crime against humanity if you draw Muhammed, yet anyone came name their kid "Muhammed."

What if your kid is an ugly dip****, and you give him that name? What if he's a terrorist? Isn't that infinitely more insulting than a damned cartoon?

GTF over it. Damn.

[jpyaks3]

I don't understand. It's this great crime against humanity if you draw Muhammed, yet anyone came name their kid "Muhammed."

What if your kid is an ugly dip****, and you give him that name? What if he's a terrorist? Isn't that infinitely more insulting than a damned cartoon?

GTF over it. Damn.

For the record no one knows why this attack was committed, as of right now its all speculation. It may very well be in response to the cartoon but no one has confirmed anything regarding that.

[Teller]

For the record no one knows why this attack was committed, as of right now its all speculation. It may very well be in response to the cartoon but no one has confirmed anything regarding that.

According to Deac, the Norweigan government is reporting that it is. I'm not near a TV, so I kind of have to rely on others right now. I'll go ahead and take the point you'll probably (and rightfully) make though, that that's usually not a rock-solid idea.

[Park City Skins]

It could be for these reasons as well.


Other Scandinavian countries have been the targets of terrorism, most recently Sweden in December, when two explosions hit Stockholm; in one of the blasts, a suspected terrorist bomber killed himself and injured two other people in a central area of the city. The suspect had made recordings condemning Sweden’s involvement in Afghanistan.

Norway has also contributed significantly to the NATO-led effort to protect civilians in Libya, sending several F-16 jets that had been carrying out 10 percent of the strikes on the country since March, according to the Norwegian Air Force. The aircraft are scheduled to return home at the end of the month.

Earlier this month, Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi threatened Europe with suicide bombings as revenge for the NATO campaign.

Norway had also filed charges last week against an Iraqi-born cleric, Mullah Krekar, a founder of the Kurdish militant group Ansar al-Islam, for threatening Norwegian officials with death if he was deported from the country.


Staff writer Greg Miller in Washington contributed to this report.


Who knows? Very tragic though. Very open country and then this happens.

[sacase]

For the record no one knows why this attack was committed, as of right now its all speculation. It may very well be in response to the cartoon but no one has confirmed anything regarding that.



A terror group, Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or the Helpers of the Global Jihad, issued a statement claiming responsibility for the attack, according to Will McCants, a terrorism analyst at C.N.A., a research institute that studies terrorism. The message said the attack was a response to Norwegian forces’ presence in Afghanistan and to unspecified insults to the Prophet Muhammad. “We have warned since the Stockholm raid of more operations,” the group said, according to Mr. McCants’ translation, apparently referring to a bombing in Sweden in December 2010. “What you see is only the beginning, and there is more to come.” The claim could not be confirmed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp

[HailGreen28]

Ever since the Oklahoma City bombing, it's been prudent not to make assumptions who the attacker is.

But as a group, Muslims worldwide have certainly earned their "not being given a doubt" on stuff like this. We'll see.

[jpyaks3]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp

This was retracted by Will Mccants.

Also multiple eye witnesses have said it was a guy with fair skin fair hair who spoke fluent Norweigen. Now he may still be a Muslim, but to me this looks more like an internal attack on a political party.

[DeaconTheVillain]

Islamic Terrorist groups are already claiming responsibilty

[jpyaks3]

Islamic Terrorist groups are already claiming responsibilty

One did, and it was debunked, has another made a claim?

I would be surprised if Islamic terrorist groups were able to recruit a Norweigen who was able to obtain a weapon and police badge and all that to carry out an attack, but once again anything is possible.

Also a Palestinian group claimed responsibility for OKC right off the bat, so claims like this aren't terribly reliable.

[DeaconTheVillain]

A few weeks ago, there was a book with carricatures of Muhammand released in Norway

http://www.cappelendamm.no/main/Katalog.aspx?f=15&isbn=9788202346928

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

According to Deac, the Norweigan government is reporting that it is. I'm not near a TV, so I kind of have to rely on others right now. I'll go ahead and take the point you'll probably (and rightfully) make though, that that's usually not a rock-solid idea.

Still unconfirmed who's behind it but security experts on the BBC are saying there's a strong chance it's the first Jihadi attack on a major Country since 7/7. Their saying both bare the hallmarks of Al Qaeda. Lot of connections being thrown up between Norway's support of the US/UK.

Those poor, poor people.

Hail.

[sacase]

One did, and it was debunked, has another made a claim?

I would be surprised if Islamic terrorist groups were able to recruit a Norweigen who was able to obtain a weapon and police badge and all that to carry out an attack, but once again anything is possible.

Also a Palestinian group claimed responsibility for OKC right off the bat, so claims like this aren't terribly reliable.

Where is the retraction?

[Predicto]

I respect your opinion but nothing you just said matters to me.

Who exactly would they be fighting anyway? Why are they trying to kill innocent civilians? They are cowards and pieces of scum that deserve to be annihilated. And Norway is not the US military.

All of that is true, and I already made it clear that I felt that way.

I was just responding to your comment that they were "scared maggots too weak to fight like real soldiers."

Fighting against the US and its allies in 2011 "like real soldiers" is suicide, not bravery. Evil crap like this is all they have available to them.

[Teller]

All of that is true, and I already made it clear that I felt that way.

I was just responding to your comment that they were "scared maggots too weak to fight like real soldiers."

Fighting against the US and its allies in 2011 "like real soldiers" is suicide, not bravery. Evil crap like this is all they have available to them.

If they were targeting soldiers, I could find some level of agreement with this.

[Redskins Diehard]

Welp, that is how assymetrical warfare has worked, pretty much back to the day when those cowardly minutemen hid behind trees and shot at the Brits instead of standing in brave formations and fighting like real soldiers.

(no, i'm not sympathetic to terrorists - they are evil as can be, and targeting civilians is never, ever justifiable. But I wouldn't call it cowardly to decline to "fight like real soldiers" against a US military that can kill you from a thousand miles away with a drone anytime they want. I call that basic survival tactics.)

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 11:09 AM ----------



Absolutely. RIP.

I think it is cowardly to decide not to fight against soldiers. Whether they are more skilled, more lethal, better resourced or not. It is not the TTP that is cowardly in my opinion...it is the choice of target. Which is in a way why in my mind the attacks on the Pentagon and the attack on the World Trade Center were not exactly the same. The Pentagon is a legitimate military target....WTC...nope.

[jpyaks3]

Where is the retraction?
The guy who broke the claim said its not real.
http://twitter.com/#!/will_mccants

And the group apparently retracted it as well.

http://www.jihadica.com/alleged-claim-for-oslo-attacks/

[sacase]

The guy who broke the claim said its not real.
http://twitter.com/#!/will_mccants

And the group apparently retracted it as well.

http://www.jihadica.com/alleged-claim-for-oslo-attacks/

Thanks!

[Predicto]

If they were targeting soldiers, I could find some level of agreement with this.


I think it is cowardly to decide not to fight against soldiers. Whether they are more skilled, more lethal, better resourced or not. It is not the TTP that is cowardly in my opinion...it is the choice of target. Which is in a way why in my mind the attacks on the Pentagon and the attack on the World Trade Center were not exactly the same. The Pentagon is a legitimate military target....WTC...nope.

How can you ever fight against our soldiers? If they know who you are, they can kill you from miles away, even thousands of miles away. No one has stood up against us since Saddam Hussein, when his "4th strongest military in the world" got rolled up like cheap newspaper in about 24 hours by our juggernaut.

I guess I'm saying that going after civilians inside a building isn't really any more "cowardly" than going after soldiers sleeping in a barracks. It is despicable, but not cowardly. No one can go toe to toe with the big boys, so if you don't want to just give up in the face of our overwhelming military might, you have to do something other than simply "stand up and fight." :whoknows:

edit: anyone who reads this as a justification or apology for terrorism or for targeting civilians is misreading me, so don't go there, please.

[sacase]

BBC LIve video

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 03:30 PM ----------


How can you ever fight against our soldiers? If they know who you are, they can kill you from miles away, even thousands of miles away.

I guess I'm saying that going after civilians inside a building isn't really any more "cowardly" than going after soldiers sleeping in a barracks. It is despicable, but not cowardly. :whoknows:

It is very cowardly. Its like fighting a child instead of fighting an adult because you know you can't win.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think all Predicto is saying is that it's the only potentially successful choice they have if they decide to fight at all. They can choose not to fight, fight us "toe to toe" and get annihilated, or resort to acts like this and have a marginal chance to succeed on a small scale. It's not justification, more of an explanation.

[HailGreen28]

How can you ever fight against our soldiers? If they know who you are, they can kill you from miles away, even thousands of miles away. No one has stood up against us since Saddam Hussein, when his "4th strongest military in the world" got rolled up like cheap newspaper in about 24 hours by our juggernaut.

I guess I'm saying that going after civilians inside a building isn't really any more "cowardly" than going after soldiers sleeping in a barracks. It is despicable, but not cowardly. No one can go toe to toe with the big boys, so if you don't want to just give up in the face of our overwhelming military might, you have to do something other than simply "stand up and fight." :whoknows:

edit: anyone who reads this as a justification or apology for terrorism or for targeting civilians is misreading me, so don't go there, please.9/11 terrorists certainly were cowardly. Hijacking airliners that included a lot of children and elders, to begin with.

No excuses. The 9/11 terrorists are scum.

[Predicto]

9/11 terrorists certainly were cowardly. Hijacking airliners that included a lot of children and elders, to begin with.

No excuses. The 9/11 terrorists are scum.

They were scum. Evil. Despicable. Horrible. No excuses are being made.

Just noting that being willing to die yourself to take out the target you have set isn't really "cowardly" is it? It's more like insanely, fanatically brave. And evil.

[jpyaks3]

Apparently the guy wasn't a police officer. And the death total on the island seems to be dropping and is now at 10 which is a very good thing after reports of 20-30 or so. Also they are saying that the guy was seen in conjunction with the bombing.

[Predicto]

I think all Predicto is saying is that it's the only potentially successful choice they have if they decide to fight at all. They can choose not to fight, fight us "toe to toe" and get annihilated, or resort to acts like this and have a marginal chance to succeed on a small scale. It's not justification, more of an explanation.

Exactly. There is no way for them to "fight fair" and win.

[Bliz]

Horrible. Just horrible. Particularly the stories coming out of that camp. My heart breaks for all of Norway

[HailGreen28]

They were scum. Evil. Despicable. Horrible. No excuses are being made.

Just noting that being willing to die yourself to take out the target you have set isn't really "cowardly" is it? It's more like insanely, fanatically brave. And evil.Wrong. Since when is a murder-suicide considered brave?

April 16, 2011 11:52 AM - 5 dead in apparent murder-suicide in Ohio. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/16/national/main20054591.shtml)
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/04/16/Ohio_Murder_suicide_244x183.jpg
Is anybody going to call that killer "brave"?

The people that coward in Norway killed, weren't trying to hurt him. If he thought so in his own diseased mind, that's not the victims' fault. No more than the family in Ohio's fault. Whoever committed the terrorism in Norway, is a despicable coward. Plain and simple. No bravery involved.

[Redskins Diehard]

How can you ever fight against our soldiers? If they know who you are, they can kill you from miles away, even thousands of miles away. No one has stood up against us since Saddam Hussein, when his "4th strongest military in the world" got rolled up like cheap newspaper in about 24 hours by our juggernaut.

I guess I'm saying that going after civilians inside a building isn't really any more "cowardly" than going after soldiers sleeping in a barracks. It is despicable, but not cowardly. No one can go toe to toe with the big boys, so if you don't want to just give up in the face of our overwhelming military might, you have to do something other than simply "stand up and fight." :whoknows:

edit: anyone who reads this as a justification or apology for terrorism or for targeting civilians is misreading me, so don't go there, please.

I don't read that as you justifying or apologizing for terrorism at all. The Iraqi Insurgents actually had a much better plan for fighting our military than the Iraqi military. And were pretty successful in it. IED's. Supply route ambushes. Indirect Fire Attacks. Exactly what they were doing before the surge and Petraeus' new doctrinal approach.

[Predicto]

Apparently the guy wasn't a police officer. And the death total on the island seems to be dropping and is now at 10 which is a very good thing after reports of 20-30 or so. Also they are saying that the guy was seen in conjunction with the bombing.

Great news!

[twa]

Exactly. There is no way for them to "fight fair" and win.

I understand what you convey,but to even use the word fight to describe murder of civilians lends them more than they are due.

They are murders for a cause...nothing more....just like abortion provider murderers

Even those that support the cause should find them abhorrent.

[Predicto]

Wrong. Since when is a murder-suicide considered brave?

April 16, 2011 11:52 AM - 5 dead in apparent murder-suicide in Ohio. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/16/national/main20054591.shtml)
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2011/04/16/Ohio_Murder_suicide_244x183.jpg
Is anybody going to call that killer "brave"?



No, I don't call that murder/suicide guy in Ohio brave.

I don't call him cowardly either. I call him evil and insane.




The people that coward in Norway killed, weren't trying to hurt him. If he thought so in his own diseased mind, that's not the victims' fault. No more than the family in Ohio's fault. Whoever committed the terrorism in Norway, is a despicable coward. Plain and simple. No bravery involved.

If you really think that I am claiming that any of this is the "victims' fault," then you are having a conversation with yourself, and not with me.

I guess I just don't understand your definition of "coward." I can hate these evil scumbags down to the core of my being without having to think of them as cowards. :whoknows:

And I hate the derailing that I have done to this thread, so I apologize and I won't do it anymore.

[Bliz]

I understand what you convey,but to even use the word fight to describe murder of civilians lends them more than they are due.

They are murders for a cause...nothing more....just like abortion provider murderers

Even those that support the cause should find them abhorrent.

misread and deleted

[Predicto]

I understand what you convey,but to even use the word fight to describe murder of civilians lends them more than they are due.

They are murders for a cause...nothing more....just like abortion provider murderers

Even those that support the cause should find them abhorrent.

I'm still looking for the first time that I said that anyone should not find them abhorrent. Abhorrent and cowardly are not synonyms.

And yes, I really am done picking this nit. I just don't want anyone to skim this thread and think that I support terrorist and their tactics. I don't.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 01:17 PM ----------


Seriously? I know you like to drive everything back to your pet topics, but that was just completely unnecessary. Is this the best we can do in the face of tragedy?

Take it somewhere else.

You misread him. He was talking about the people who murder abortion clinic doctors - and his point was correct.

[twa]

You have a better analogy?

add
I could have used eco-terrorists or anarchists,but I though I'd make it more relevant to me.

Predicto,I know you find them abhorhent

[DeaconTheVillain]

Most terrorist (or people we dub as terrorists) are far from cowardly.

[Teller]

I'm still looking for the first time that I said that anyone should not find them abhorrent. Abhorrent and cowardly are not synonyms.

And yes, I really am done picking this nit. I just don't want anyone to skim this thread and think that I support terrorist and their tactics. I don't.

Any tailgate regular knows better than that, P. No question.

I just think maybe, in this rare instance, you're either not communicating your point all that effectively, or your argument just doesn't translate accurately over the interwebz.

In combat, I agree with you. It reminds me of "Red Dawn." If a superior power were ever to come invade this country, and it was every man for himself, you can bet I'd use anything I could get my hands on to kill as many of them as possible. And if we were outmatched, I sure as hell wouldn't fight fairly. So there, your point is well-taken.

And I'm going to leave it there, agreeing under those circumstances, since you've asked out of this train of thought (like a gentleman) a few times without success.

[Bliz]

You misread him. He was talking about the people who murder abortion clinic doctors - and his point was correct.

You're right. I did misread him. Rescinded

[HailGreen28]

No, I don't call that murder/suicide guy in Ohio brave.

I don't call him cowardly either. I call him evil and insane.

If you really think that I am claiming that any of this is the "victims' fault," then you are having a conversation with yourself, and not with me.

I guess I just don't understand your definition of "coward." I can hate these evil scumbags down to the core of my being without having to think of them as cowards. :whoknows:

And I hate the derailing that I have done to this thread, so I apologize and I won't do it anymore.Naw, you're cool. I think you're just repeating the mantra that somehow these terrorists are "brave", when they aren't. And that's all I'm arguing against you about.

Bushwhacking people that have no animosity towards you, killing them just because you don't like the group they are part of, even though they aren't acting against you, aren't even trying to attack or defend themselves against you.... that's cowardice. That's what the 9/11 terrorists did hijacking those airplanes, that's what the guy in Norway did.

The "not the victim's fault" is just me trying to pre-empt some of the other stupid cliches, putting terrorists in a less despicable light, that's all.

How about this definition of a "coward": Being mad at someone, so deciding to go shoot one of their family members in the back despite them having no animosity towards you. As if that somehow furthers whatever "cause" you had against the guy you're mad with, but were too chicken to confront directly. That's basically what the terrorists in question are doing. Does this definition make sense?

[ixcuincle]

http://twitter.com/camanpour/statuses/94503861707997184

Have spoken with Norwegian diplomatic source, who describes center of Oslo as a “war zone”

[jpyaks3]

Norweigen Police apparently don't think this is related to international terrorism. Looks like either a lone attacker or a right wing group (I say this because the Socialist party HQ and their youth camp were attacked).

[ixcuincle]

Sickening how they attacked a camp

Innocent lifes snared for sick purposes, these people did nothing to you

It's sheer cowardice to attack innocents. Sheer cowardice. Makes you sick.

[nonniey]

9/11 terrorists certainly were cowardly. Hijacking airliners that included a lot of children and elders, to begin with.

No excuses. The 9/11 terrorists are scum.

Scum, yes. Evil Yes. Criminal, yes. Cowardly? No.

[ixcuincle]

Why are they cowards? Because they attacked innocents who aren't doing **** to them.

If you have beef, you take it up like a civil person with political discourse and voting and stuff like that. Let your voice be heard. Don't go around shooting **** up just because you're pissed over some political crap or international policy. That to me is cowardice, when you have to make your point be heard by shooting people who have nothing to do with the policy whatsoever.

[Predicto]

How about this definition of a "coward": Being mad at someone, so deciding to go shoot one of their family members in the back despite them having no animosity towards you. As if that somehow furthers whatever "cause" you had against the guy you're mad with, but were too chicken to confront directly. That's basically what the terrorists in question are doing. Does this definition make sense?


Fair enough. :cheers:

On the other hand, I guess there can be lots of definitions of cowardice. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afganistan have died as collateral damage, and THEIR families' definition of cowardice might be someone who sits on an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean and pilots a drone that kills a suspected terrorist along with 17 innocent nearby villagers, while facing no danger himself. :whoknows:

(I wouldn't agree with that, by the way).


Oh dammit I've been sucked back in. No more, I promise. Terrorists are scum, leave it at that.

[HailGreen28]

Scum, yes. Evil Yes. Criminal, yes. Cowardly? No.What were the people in the airplanes doing to the terrorists?

Attacking someone minding their own business, not even aware of you = coward.

[Koolblue13]

What were the people in the airplanes doing to the terrorists?

Attacking someone minding their own business, not even aware of you = coward.

If you're mad at a government that has been elected by the people, the people aren't exactly innocent.

That said, I'm not condoning violence, by us or them.

[HailGreen28]

Fair enough. :cheers:

On the other hand, I guess there can be lots of definitions of cowardice. Hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afganistan have died as collateral damage, and THEIR families' definition of cowardice might be someone who sits on an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean and pilots a drone that kills a suspected terrorist along with 17 innocent nearby villagers, while facing no danger himself. :whoknows:

(I wouldn't agree with that, by the way).


Oh dammit I've been sucked back in. No more, I promise. Terrorists are scum, leave it at that.Until we have war like in the movies, where innocent bystanders aren't victims, there isn't much you can do about that. Especially when some terrorists actually hide in residential areas.

LOL, you're OK. Just disputing those scum being brave in any way shape form. Attacking troops with IEDs? I don't like it, but they're actually fighting for a cause. Blowing up an IED at a school for girls? There is so much difference between the two, even if the same type weapon is used, in the same country. I cannot believe the number of people who *just* *don't* *get* *it*.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 04:50 PM ----------


If you're mad at a government that has been elected by the people, the people aren't exactly innocent.Why aren't the people innocent? What made the people on those 9/11 airplanes deserve death? :doh:


That said, I'm not condoning violence, by us or them.Yes you did. With the flimsiest and evilest analogy I can recall anybody making. :doh:

[Sticksboi05]

LOL, if you don't think surprisingly assaulting unarmed people is cowardly you are crazy.

[DeaconTheVillain]

Scum, yes. Evil Yes. Criminal, yes. Cowardly? No.

This exactly

And I think that killing civilians on purpose is about oslo as it goes.

[stupidmorals]

This exactly

And I think that killing civilians on purpose is about oslo as it goes.

I wanted to get all indignant about it being too soon for jokes but, damn it, that made me laugh! :ols:

...Because I'm a horrible person. :(

[ixcuincle]

Wow, I didn't even notice that at first

[HailGreen28]

This exactly

And I think that killing civilians on purpose is about oslo as it goes.*must.... stop.... grinnng.... at... that.... joke.....*

<scratch this. I can't think of a good way to make this analogy. >

[Koolblue13]

[/COLOR]Why aren't the people innocent? What made the people on those 9/11 airplanes deserve death? :doh:

Yes you did. With the flimsiest and evilest analogy I can recall anybody making. :doh:

It's sad how many people still don't know why we were attacked on 9/11.

[HailGreen28]

It's sad how many people still don't know why we were attacked on 9/11.Oh, this ought to be good.

You wanna debate the evil Sauds having us liberate Kuwait, rather than let Osama's buddies turn it into Afghanistan?

Or maybe we should have just let Muslim extremists push Jews into the sea?

Go ahead and finish your statement. Why did the people on civilian airliners have to die on 9/11, Koolblue?

[DeaconTheVillain]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w186/vaskidmark/deereatingpopcorn.gif

[Unforgiven]

This thread is a microcosm of modern America, and it's really sad.

I'm not going to reply to individual people, just wanted to say RIP to the innocent people that died today.

[Park City Skins]

http://bestsmileys.com/sports1/18.gif

Okay. I think that'll be enough of all the other talk that doesn't have to do with the bombing and shootings in Norway thanks. Few of you may be responding as I type this,so there's a pass there. Otherwise,let's keep this on track from here on out.

[Koolblue13]

Oh, this ought to be good.

You wanna debate the evil Sauds having us liberate Kuwait, rather than let Osama's buddies turn it into Afghanistan?

Or maybe we should have just let Muslim extremists push Jews into the sea?

Go ahead and finish your statement. Why did the people on civilian airliners have to die on 9/11, Koolblue?

We have been screwing with different countries for a long time, have military bases all over their land, blindlessly back Israel and have been causing pain, suffering and death over there for a long time. They brought the fight to us, to try and open Americas eyes, despite liking the people here. We were held accountable, for what the government we elected have been doing. That's according to Bin Laden.

And they didn't have to die. We could have stopped ****ing with the people in other countries and took care of ourselves, but we didn't and this was the result, but as long as we are doing the evil we are doing throughout the world, you and I are not innocent. Each one of us is accountable for our government, our military, our drone attacks, our land mines, our CIA, our ATF giving guns to drug lords, all of it.

[Duckus]

The picture on the front page of Drudge is tragic. . . . . :(

I wont post it as it is pretty graphic.

Interesting that none of the 24 hour networks are even talking about it right now.

[Mad Mike]

When you consider the size and population of the country, this is a 9/11 scale attack for them. Norway has no known internal terrorist group so I'm assuming AQ or some associated/sympathiser group. As I said in this (http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?349552-reason.com-Return-to-Normalcy-%28When-Al-Qaeda-is-defeated-can-we-have-our-liberties-back-%29) thread, the world has forever changed. The constant threat of terrorism is the new normal.

My deepest sympathy for those who were killed and those who lost loved ones as well as my best wishes to a fantastic country. When I worked in the skydiving industry it was my great pleasure to meet and work with many Norwegians. My biggest impression was one of a people who live life to the fullest. In that light, today's events are truly heartbreaking.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 10:01 PM ----------


We have been screwing with different countries for a long time, have military bases all over their land, blindlessly back Israel and have been causing pain, suffering and death over there for a long time. They brought the fight to us, to try and open Americas eyes, despite liking the people here. We were held accountable, for what the government we elected have been doing. That's according to Bin Laden.

And they didn't have to die. We could have stopped ****ing with the people in other countries and took care of ourselves, but we didn't and this was the result, but as long as we are doing the evil we are doing throughout the world, you and I are not innocent. Each one of us is accountable for our government, our military, our drone attacks, our land mines, our CIA, our ATF giving guns to drug lords, all of it.

Seriously dude. There is a limit to rational free speech and good taste. You just crossed WAY over it. If I said what was on my mind right now I would be banned. So Instead I will just say that IMO, you just crossed into the land of human scum.

[sacase]

We have been screwing with different countries for a long time, have military bases all over their land, blindlessly back Israel and have been causing pain, suffering and death over there for a long time. They brought the fight to us, to try and open Americas eyes, despite liking the people here. We were held accountable, for what the government we elected have been doing. That's according to Bin Laden.

And they didn't have to die. We could have stopped ****ing with the people in other countries and took care of ourselves, but we didn't and this was the result, but as long as we are doing the evil we are doing throughout the world, you and I are not innocent. Each one of us is accountable for our government, our military, our drone attacks, our land mines, our CIA, our ATF giving guns to drug lords, all of it.

Please name all the military bases we have all over their land prior to 9/11. Please share with everyone where these bases with without permission from their governments. PLease tell us what pain, suffering and death we have brought to them.

Let's get to the real meat of the matter, you have an oppressed, uneducated, disenfranchised group of people who live in a miserable part of the world that produces absolutely nothing of value. The only redeeming thing about the whole region is the oil. If there was no oil there, the whole area would be irrelevant. You have a small group of educated individuals who decided that they did not like America and manipulated parts of the populace that they could live a better life in death fighting jihad. Like other before them (christian, muslim and any other violent religious you can thing of), they used religion to combat the moral conflict in the person. Plain and simple, most of these people have been brainwashed.

You last paragraph is particularly galling. We don't go mess with people just to mess with them. Typically, they have done something to us or our allies. But regardless, we were acting in our best interest. You talk about all the "evil" we do. At least don't go an intentionally target civilians and massacre them. Hell, when we even plan our mission we go FAR out of our way to make sure that we don't kill more than those who we intended. Things, such as angle of attack, weather, building material and explosive damage are taking into consideration. When we hit a target, we know exactly how big the crater will be and how much collateral damage is going to be done, hell we even figure out which direction the blast is going to be and where the material ejected from the blast is going to end up. So get off your high horse with this America is evil kick. Those individuals are responsible for their actions and they are much closer to the evil side than America has ever been.

[HailGreen28]

We have been screwing with different countries for a long time, have military bases all over their land, blindlessly back Israel and have been causing pain, suffering and death over there for a long time.We went into Kuwait with everybody's INVITATION. Except Saddam and nutcases like Osama. And that region has been beset by war before, since, and may likely still be after America is a country. What exactly are you trying to blame us for, again? Backing the pesky Isrealis? How dare they fight back!


They brought the fight to us, to try and open Americas eyes, despite liking the people here. We were held accountable, for what the government we elected have been doing. That's according to Bin Laden.They brought no fight to us. They hijacked planes full of innocent unsuspecting people, and crashed them into office buildings. That's like trying to say that Charles Manson was holding us "accountable" for something. :doh:


And they didn't have to die. We could have stopped ****ing with the people in other countries and took care of ourselves, but we didn't and this was the result, Completely and totally wrong. The 9/11 terrorists are responsible for their own actions. Their own cowardly evil actions. Like Charles Manson.


Tbut as long as we are doing the evil we are doing throughout the world, you and I are not innocent. Each one of us is accountable for our government, our military, our drone attacks, our land mines, our CIA, our ATF giving guns to drug lords, all of it.What "evil"? I can't believe you're trying to compare deliberately targeting children and elderly to what we do. Drone attacks are a way for us to attack terrorists without having those awful bases you just railed about. Our land mines are one reason there hasn't been war in Korea the last 50 years. (You want to talk landmines in other places, let's talk about where they come from and who uses them.) Our CIA does some bad things, and should be called on it. They're still saints compared to Al Quieda and muslim extremists. You can find running tallies on those guys at sites like this. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

2011.07.20 (Aden, Yemen) - A British businessman is killed in a targeted car bombing.
2011.07.19 (Landi Kotal, Pakistan) - Islamic militants lob mortars into a town, injuring nine children playing cricket.
2011.07.19 (Charkhel, Pakistan) - Religious radicals kill two hostages, burning a student and shooting the other civilian to death.
2011.07.19 (Pattani, Thailand) - Islamists bomb a group of men trying to protect teachers, killing two of the guards.
2011.07.19 (Karachi, Pakistan) - A shopkeeper is killed when two religious groups shoot at each other following a funeral.
2011.07.18 (Farah, Afghanistan) - The Taliban send the beheaded bodies of two hostages to their families.

etc.

Again, what on earth justifies those people on airliners dying on 9/11, koolblue?

[Koolblue13]

PCS said not to continue this discussion on the last page. I'm not going to reply.

[Sticksboi05]

Oh God are we really going to go there? Really..really.

[Park City Skins]

Oh God are we really going to go there? Really..really.

Really? Nope. Like I said. That's enough. Final warning for those who may have missed it on the previous page.

[Sticksboi05]

Thank you PCS - there's absolutely no reason this thread has to go foul.

[The Evil Genius]

So is the threory still that this Al Queda? Or is it now being seen as a domestic terrorism? I am confused.

BTW - why wouldn't AQ take credit for it? Even if (and that's the big if) they didn't do it...

[Jumbo]

Love that gif, PCS. :)

[HailGreen28]

The picture on the front page of Drudge is tragic. . . . . :(

I wont post it as it is pretty graphic.

Interesting that none of the 24 hour networks are even talking about it right now.They may be holding off, because there's so many opportunities to jump to conclusions about who did it and why.

edit: lol at deacons and PCS's gifs.

[Special K]

Absolutely heartbreaking images on the news. My sincerest condolences to the Norwegian people and the victims of this horrible tragedy.

My first thoughts when I saw the news was to contact my friend who lives in Oslo to make sure she and her family are ok. Thankfully she and everyone she knows is fine, but she's shocked and devastated right now. I get the impression she is feeling a very similar pain myself, and most of us felt on 9/11. My heart truly goes out to everyone in that country right now. :(

[Park City Skins]

I'm practicing for when the season is back on in The Stadium.

[Koolblue13]

I think Heli, Symbols girl lives near there. I hope she's okay. This is so tragic.

[Special K]

So is the threory still that this Al Queda? Or is it now being seen as a domestic terrorism? I am confused.

BTW - why wouldn't AQ take credit for it? Even if (and that's the big if) they didn't do it...
All I've seen is that the person who attacked the youth camp was a Norwegian...

Who really knows if this is AQ or domestic at this point.

[Sticksboi05]

I'm practicing for when the season is back on in The Stadium.

Godspeed.

[Jumbo]

I'm practicing for when the season is back on in The Stadium.


I've noted the more strike-oriented katas you've performed in the forums lately :pfft:.

I'm trying to get back in shape for the season too, in all forums, but just had another damn birthday and find the challenge increases :D


Ok, I'll stop getting OT.:cool:

[Park City Skins]

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2011/07/oslo-explosion/40289/



5:48 pm - In Brief: Police have arrested a 32 year old Norwegian man who is being linked to both the downtown Oslo bombing of the government building that houses Prime Minster Jens Stoltenberg's office and the shootings at a youth meeting on the nearby Utoya Island. The attacks combined have currently left at least 16 or 17 people dead and over a dozen injured. U.S. officials cited by CNN say that they haven't seen evidence that this had "hallmarks of a big sophisticated attack." Reuters published a list of likely suspects of groups/individuals behind the attack. In remarks on the attack, Prime Minister Stoltenberg said: "No one can bomb us to be quiet. No one can shoot us to be quiet no one can ever scare us from being Norway."

[Jumbo]

People who think those Scandahoovian countries can't be formidable opponents in combat are sorely mistaken.

[FanboyOf91]

Vancouver Sun (http://www.vancouversun.com/Live+Updates+Oslo+bombing/5144505/story.html) twitter feed:


New police pressr: "We can confirm that there are 10 killed at Utøya, and several injured. Search continues."

Police pressr: "The assailant is being interrogated, and we can confirm that he was dressed as a policeman."

Police pressr: "The assailant has NEVER been part of the police force, and has no relation to us. We can't say anything about nationality"

Police pressr: "As we said, we're still searching for people on Utøya, and we can't say anything about any youths in the water."

Police pressr: "We still believe that the bombings in Oslo are connected with the shootings at Utøya, and we've had reports suggesting..

Police pressr cont: ..that someone looking like the assailant may have been observed acting strangely just by the bomb scene."

[Park City Skins]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/22/blast-rips-through-norways-capital-injuries-reported/



[Update: 5:40 p.m. ET, 11:40 p.m. Oslo] Undetonated explosives were found on Utoya Island, where a gunman opened fire earlier in the day on a Labour Party Youth Camp, Oslo, Norway, acting Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim said late Friday night.

Authorities believe the man traveled to the island from Oslo, where at least seven were killed in a bombing in the city center. The suspect, a 32-year-old Norwegian, was taken into custody after he killed or wounded an unknown number of people, Sponheim said.

[Predicto]

So, this is looking more like Timothy McVeighstronderoogheim than anyone named Abdullah. Or is it?

Why is it taking so long to get any info about who this guy is?

[FanboyOf91]

With a grain of salt...

http://www.vancouversun.com/Live+Updates+Oslo+bombing/5144505/story.html


Daily News is naming the accused in the attacks today as Anders Behring Breivik. www.dailymail.co.uk

Sky News report that the gunman's name is Anders Behring Breivik. Here's his Facebook profile: www.facebook.com (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002651290254)ABSOLUTELY UNCONFIRMED!


BREAKING: The gunman had his own company, dealing with geofarming, which would explain access to explosives.


Anders Behring Breivik has a sparse Facebook page (built and populated on July 17 - no friends): and a Twitter account ([url]http://twitter.com/#!/AndersBBreivik (]www.facebook.com[/url)) - with one message, dated July 17 - "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests."

The gunman 'have no police record' apart from some speeding tickets. Been to the army for just one year at 18 years of age, VG reports.

[Predicto]

With a grain of salt...

http://www.vancouversun.com/Live+Updates+Oslo+bombing/5144505/story.html


That is the most boring Facebook profile I have ever seen. How odd.

[MrSilverMaC]

People who think those Scandahoovian countries can't be formidable opponents in combat are sorely mistaken.

Bunch of viking berserkers. This is a Finnish example of that from WWII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4


Norway would seem an odd target if this is a muslim terror linked attack and they are going after countries with a presence in Afghanistan. Norway only has like 200 troops there I think.

[SkinsHokieFan]

With a grain of salt...

http://www.vancouversun.com/Live+Updates+Oslo+bombing/5144505/story.html


Sounds pretty Muslim to me

[MrSilverMaC]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/07/22/general-eu-norway-explosion_8580199.html

A police official said the 32-year-old ethnic Norwegian suspect arrested at the camp on Utoya island appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all."

[jpyaks3]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/07/22/general-eu-norway-explosion_8580199.html

A police official said the 32-year-old ethnic Norwegian suspect arrested at the camp on Utoya island appears to have acted alone in both attacks, and that "it seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organizations at all."

Norweigen news said a childhood friend said that he is a right wing extremist which fits with the targets of the attack.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

People who think those Scandahoovian countries can't be formidable opponents in combat are sorely mistaken.

Tiny little Finland fought the Soviet Union to a standstill at the the start of WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Of course Stalin killing almost anyone with a brain in the Soviet military a couple of years prior didn't help.

[HailGreen28]

sniphttp://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lklhpumfBl1qh9iuvo1_500.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another note, if they got the terrorist, can they fry him like McVeigh?

[Koala]

Scared maggots too weak to fight like real soldiers. I hate them all.

RIP to the dead.


You hate Norwegians? Oh you meant Muslims. Hmm somehow I dont think you're gonna take back that comment, or learn anything from the fact that your reflexive hatred of muslims just made you look pretty stupid.

[FanboyOf91]

http://www.vancouversun.com/Live+Updates+Oslo+bombing/5144505/story.html


Breaking from #VGNett Police confirms at least 80 killed at Utøya #oslexpl

:puke:






I dag er vi alle norske.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 10:40 PM ----------



On another note, if they got the terrorist, can they fry him like McVeigh?

Norway doesn't have a death penalty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Norway).

The maximum sentence is apparently (warning: Wikipedia reference) 21 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway), though they might have a "containment" punishment that allows indefinite extension if the prisoner is considered dangerous.

[Destino]

Wait... so one guy built a massive bomb by himself, detonated it near a government building, while at the same time managing to kill 80 people in an outdoor environment. Anyone hear anything about a machine gun or something? Trying to wrap my head around how he could have managed to shoot 80 people dead.

[FanboyOf91]

Wait... so one guy built a massive bomb by himself, detonated it near a government building, while at the same time managing to kill 80 people in an outdoor environment. Anyone hear anything about a machine gun or something? Trying to wrap my head around how he could have managed to shoot 80 people dead.

He apparently had served in the Norwegian military for a short period. He was dressed as a police officer, which he used to lure his victims into killing range. Then there's the size of the island:

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20110722&t=2&i=464212736&w=460&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=2011-07-22T223743Z_01_BTRE76L1QV000_RTROPTP_0_NORWAY-BLAST

[Destino]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/23/article-2017709-0D1F33FB00000578-704_306x512.jpg

That picture is sure to stir up the conspiracy theorists.

Caution NSFW http://i53.tinypic.com/23r263t.jpg

Picture is supposedly one of the killer in the act. Appears to be holding a rifle of some sort.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Yeah I was about to post that picture. The guy in the water seemingly begging for his life...**** man.

Here's another one:

http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/s/s/16/media16/2011/Jul/22/LiveLeak-dot-com-b0ad22b95282-2ymj8rs.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4 db65f5e99818bad6974e4dd9d07bfc&ec_rate=300

Horrible.

[abdcskins]

I am so shocked he was able to kill that many people. That has to be like one of the biggest mass shootings ever yeah? So awful a man go to those measures to dress up like a police officer and attack people on an island. All the elements were there for him to kill many people. He obviously was sick in the head these were kids some of them other young adults. He concocted a very elaborate scheme to plan this out. How do people think so badly and want to hurt people and the government? It is scary really. And btw I jumped to conclusions thinking it was international terrorists it was just one horrible sick man.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Wait... so one guy built a massive bomb by himself, detonated it near a government building, while at the same time managing to kill 80 people in an outdoor environment. Anyone hear anything about a machine gun or something? Trying to wrap my head around how he could have managed to shoot 80 people dead.

Heard he had an automatic weapon.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2011 at 11:22 PM ----------

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/sws_path/suns-prod-images/1311373729981_ORIGINAL.jpg?quality=80&size=650x

[jpyaks3]

Reading his posts through google translate on this site, http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/

This guy is extreme right wing, ranting against multiculturalism, "marxism", and he is islamophobic and ultra nationalist. Truly a hateful piece of ****. Its despicable that 80 young men and women were killed simply for attending the wrong political camp.

[Sticksboi05]

Too bad he cannot be punished in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Norway goes easy on their criminals.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3710902/At-least-87-people-are-killed-in-two-gun-and-bomb-attacks-in-Norway-by-a-crazed-hunting-fan.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News


Hunter killer
'87 die' in Norway bomb and gun massacre

AT least 87 people were killed yesterday in two gun and bomb attacks in Norway by a crazed hunting fan.

The gunman, dressed as a policeman, massacred more than 80 youths camping on an island - two hours after a huge car bomb wrecked government buildings in capital Oslo.

Police arrested a Norwegian - named last night as farming firm boss Anders Behring Breivik. Explosives were also found on the island.

Terrified survivors last night told how a blue-eyed gunman beckoned them towards him - then coldly opened fire.

80 were confirmed dead - with more feared to be victims - after the assassin attacked a youth camp on the tiny Norwegian island of Utoya.

A massive car bomb had earlier left seven dead and ten wounded in capital Oslo around 20 miles away. And last night police believed a "madman" arrested on the island - named in Norwegian reports as Anders Behring Breivik - carried out BOTH attacks.

He was said to have been seen at the scene of the bombing.

What appears to be the 32-year-old's Facebook page describes him as "single" and a "Christian" - and lists serial killer drama Dexter as one of his favourite TV shows.

He also names Dexter, a series about a serial killer, and vampire show True Blood among TV programmes he likes.

Bizarrely he lists cartoon He-Man among his choice watches as well as violent films Gladiator and 300.

Under political views, he lists himself as "Conservative" - but Norwegian TV reported he has links to right-wing extremism.

A pal said he ranted on anti-Islam websites and was "strongly opposed to multiculturalism".

Among his interests are hunting, body building and freemasonry. He was also pictured in a ceremonial outfit on Facebook.

Breivik is said to have had a machine gun and a Glock pistol registered in his name.

And as boss of farming firm Breivik Geofarm, he would have had access to fertiliser for a bomb.

On a Twitter page set up under his name, there is just one message posted on July 17.

It says: "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests."

The gunman - described as over 6ft and blond with blue eyes - had arrived on the island by boat, dressed as a police officer.

Survivor Jorgen Benone said the "cop" beckoned to some youngsters and said "Come here" - then produced an automatic gun and shot at them.

Jorgen, who hid behind rocks 20 metres away, said: "People were running in all directions."

Some youngsters fled towards the sea hoping to swim to safety. But the fanatic gunned down some of them on the beach - and shot others as they swam.

A 22-year-old witness, who would only give her name as Helene, said: "I saw several youths in the water. The man shot after them while they swam."

Some youths barricaded themselves inside wooden shacks.

Others posted harrowing messages on Twitter.

One wrote: "We are sitting down by the beach. A man is shooting clothed in a police uniform. Help us! When are the police coming to help us!"

Another had received a text from a survivor which read: "I'm safe. We've hidden in a tree. One of us is shot twice in the foot."

The car bomb exploded in the heart of Oslo's government quarter and close to the PM's office - and the camp was hosting a youth rally for his Labour Party.

The device exploded at around 2.30pm UK time - 3.30pm in Norway. Norway's finance ministry and the country's biggest tabloid newspaper were also hit.

Detectives believe fertiliser-based explosives had been packed into the vehicle - which lay mangled and blackened on its side amid the debris. Reporter Harald Klungtveit, in his office near the blast, said: "The block where the PM is situated is smashed." Colleague Anne Marte Blindheim said: "It looks like a war zone."

Rescuers were last night trying to free dozens of survivors trapped in the debris amid growing fears the death toll would grow. Norway's borders were shut "within minutes" of the blast. But two hours later terror came to Utoya. Around 560 youngsters, aged from 14 to 25, had gathered there for the political rally.

Former prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland had been the key speaker yesterday and Stoltenberg was due there today. When the killer got on the island, he claimed to be carrying out a routine check due to the Oslo bombing.

Police last night revealed they had found explosives on the island, and confirmed they were quizzing a 32-year-old man arrested there. One police official said: "It seems like that this is not linked to any international terrorist organisations at all. This looks like a madman's work."

Officers were searching Breivik's flat in the posh West End of Oslo for clues.

There were no reports of any Britons killed, injured or missing in either attack. But PM David Cameron said: "These attacks are a stark reminder of the threat we all face from terrorism."

[jpyaks3]

Too bad he cannot be punished in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Norway goes easy on their criminals.

He will never see the outside of prison in his lifetime. Executing him won't solve anything. Killing anyone is wrong, even evil people like this guy.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

He will never see the outside of prison in his lifetime. Executing him won't solve anything. Killing anyone is wrong, even evil people like this guy.

I agree with you but lets please not start that discussion now. Nobodies mind will be changed and it'll just go on and on.

[FanboyOf91]

Reading his posts through google translate on this site, http://www.document.no/anders-behring-breivik/

This guy is extreme right wing, ranting against multiculturalism, "marxism", and he is islamophobic and ultra nationalist. Truly a hateful piece of ****. Its despicable that 80 young men and women were killed simply for attending the wrong political camp.

An interesting site itself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document.no).

From Chrome translation:
I have worked with the project for 14 years with several projects related to web solutions, have the financial education + two other Bachelor's degrees, earned my first million as an entrepreneur at the age of 24 and have many friends who today are successful entrepreneurs in most industries. Several of my friends are experts on the development of social networking sites (one of them runs Deiligst.no, Norway's probably the most profitable online communities despite the frayed moral concept).

Wait, this guy's a millionaire?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I mean he owns his own company. Probably.

[Koala]

. And btw I jumped to conclusions thinking it was international terrorists it was just one horrible sick man.

Calling him sick excuses him, and Im not accusing you of this, but its funny how people just write it off to lunacy when something like this is done by a causcasian man. No discussion about his religious beliefs, no analyzing his politcal beliefs to see what role they played, no talk about the blame that belongs to the culture he was raised in, no wondering if he recieved help and how many other people out there like him are still lurking, no analysis about the frequency of mass murder committed by people of similar race and background -- you know all the things we would do if he was muslim for example.

[NoCalMike]

So does FOX news decide to drop all coverage since this terrorist attack wasn't committed by a brown man railing against "western values" ?

[SkinsHokieFan]

Some of his rantings


In all cases.

It is very important that we here in the document does not restrict our "political commitment" to this page. There is great political upheavals taking place in Western Europe at this moment (a subversion of gressrotnivå). The cultural conservative movement is growing at record speed and it is a consolidation process going on in all Western European countries. ANYONE can contribute and every contribution counts:) The best thing you can do in Norway is to support Dokument.no either financially or through volunteer work. Visit the various Norwegian debate forum and market articles on the Dokument.no. With dedicated effort, I am sure that the document has the potential to become the new "Event".

He will soon present their ideas for how this can be done.

I recommend to you all also strongly recommended to extend Facebook their networks, using the daily quota of 50 invitations to connect with Brits, French, Swedes, etc. Join groups that SIOE - Stop the Islamisation of Europe, Against Multiculturalism, join Progress Party, if anything:)

Watch the pages gatesofvienna, brussels journal, Jihad Watch, religionofpeace etc.

Read Fjord Man's work "Defeating Eurabia". This is f as the perfect Christmas gift for family and friends.

Add: Analekta Informatics on Facebook. This group communicates news articles that are unknown to most people. Very good news that the document can use if desired.

It is especially important that we, the Norwegian cultural conservatives, are making an effort. Norway and Sweden are among the world's most repressive regimes the press (press censorship) when it comes to a critical view of Islamization and multiculturalism.

The biggest mistake most people make is they assume that "someone else" to make efforts for them. There is no other, it's just us;)

Looking forward to meeting as many as possible of you on Thursday:). Let's hope his not choose Blitz Café or International:)).

(To Adde me on Facebook please send an email to year2083@gmail.com)


Speaking of stubborn multiculturalists. I remember a story from the Oslo newspaper Aftenposten for approx. 6 months ago very good (I find, unfortunately, not this).

I can remember that it was a school in the City Center East, in a class where there was only a single Norwegian boy again (the majority were Muslims). Most others had taken their children out of school. The mother of this boy was, of course, a hardcore Marxist who died and life was to prove that multiculturalism and Islam will be functioning. She refused to move to another area or take him out of school. Her son would prove once and for all that Islamophobes on documents and other cultural conservatives were wrong and that it WAS possible.

The poor boy was harassed for several years until satisfactory one day he began to self harm. He told his marxistmor that he wanted to die. Only after this the mother realized that she had been wrong. The result was that they moved to another neighborhood and changing schools.

So one should not underestimate the fact how "hardcore" some of these kulturmarxistene is. I'm sure some of these actually had sacrificed their own children just to prove this sick Marxist theory.

But there are, after all, some justice up in it all. The positive for us, the cultural conservatives, is that we are among the first to protect our children, we move to safe areas where our children do not need to live in dhimmitude.

It is often the children of the boundless naive and Marxist kids who end up as victims. The irony here is that those who survive with psyche intact ends up as a dedicated cultural conservatives or to with which etnosentrerte of great frustration for their kulturmarxistiske or humanist parents:))


Here is a nice overview - 10 reasons why the modern church will die:

http://gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-modernist-christianity-will-die.html

I myself am a Protestant and baptized / confirmed to me by my own free will when I was 15

But today's Protestant church is a joke. Priests in jeans who march for Palestine and churches that look like the minimalist shopping centers. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic. In the meantime, I vote for the most conservative candidates in church elections.

The only thing that can save the Protestant church is to go back to basics.

[Mad Mike]

Let me get this straight. This evil ******* moron hated Muslims and multiculturalism, so he acted on his hatred and intolerance of others as if inspired by the worst Islamic extremists. :doh:

[Sticksboi05]

He will never see the outside of prison in his lifetime. Executing him won't solve anything. Killing anyone is wrong, even evil people like this guy.

This isn't the place for a death penalty referendum.

[abdcskins]

Calling him sick excuses him, and Im not accusing you of this, but its funny how people just write it off to lunacy when something like this is done by a causcasian man. No discussion about his religious beliefs, no analyzing his politcal beliefs to see what role they played, no talk about the blame that belongs to the culture he was raised in, no wondering if he recieved help and how many other people out there like him are still lurking, no analysis about the frequency of mass murder committed by people of similar race and background -- you know all the things we would do if he was muslim for example.

Not sure if you misunderstood me or something but I just meant "sick" as in he was an evil person. I'm not sure what you are trying to say really but I just mean like he's a bad person. I actually kinda see what you mean like what he was following in terms of ideology.

All this stuff really is crazy it got me to thinking about people who kill for their political and personal beliefs, which end up mostly being a hateful rant against people. Reading what that guy today wrote made very little to no sense he was rambling I couldn't really read it to be honest. Whether it is Timothy McVeigh or Muammar Gaddafi or Bin Laden these people need to be stopped. I looked up the biggest mass murders and read about some of them. Pan Am Flight 103, Oklahoma City bombings, 9/11, Beslan school hostage crisis in Russia....it sorta just tripped me out how the world is run and how people fight I dunno maybe I'm just blazed or something haha. The world is a scary place.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Let me get this straight. This evil ******* moron hated Muslims and multiculturalism, so he acted on his hatred and intolerance of others as if inspired by the worst Islamic extremists. :doh:

And killed his own people.

[Destino]

Something about all of this seems off to me. All of his pictures look professionally done including the one of him in a freemason apron. His facebook is brand new and lists Christan conservative hunter. He acted entirely alone in creating, placing, and detonating a bomb... while still killing 80 kids on an island. I don't know what it is yet but something feels strange about this.

[sacase]

Something about all of this seems off to me. All of his pictures look professionally done including the one of him in a freemason apron. His facebook is brand new and lists Christan conservative hunter. He acted entirely alone in creating, placing, and detonating a bomb... while still killing 80 kids on an island. I don't know what it is yet but something feels strange about this.

Well it did happen 2 hours later. But I think there has to be more to the story.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I wonder if he was trying to frame Muslims for it? Build up anti-Muslim sentiment. And given the groups he's involved with, I wouldn't doubt others were in on it.

[thebluefood]

Let me get this straight. This evil ******* moron hated Muslims and multiculturalism, so he acted on his hatred and intolerance of others as if inspired by the worst Islamic extremists. :doh:

That's the funny thing about extremists. No matter what end of the spectrum they're on, they seem to have the same tendencies.

[Mickalino]

it is probably because of the cartoons of the Prophed Muhammed thing - I think Norway was in the middle of that.


This is what Norwegian gov't is now reporting. That it is indeed retaliation for the Muhammed drawing.


Wasn't that, like, 5 years ago? Those Muslim extremists are just quick on the uptake.


If your doing it over a cartoon drawing, you're a crazy pathetic punk.


Wait, didn't the Mohammad drawing thing happen in the Netherlands?

None of the above.

It happened in Denmark.

[ixcuincle]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-norway-attacks-20110724,0,3637984.story


Norwegian police said Saturday that the death toll from Friday's attacks has risen to 91 and confirmed that they have arrested a suspect whom they described as a right-wing Christian fundamentalist.

In a news conference Saturday morning in Oslo, police confirmed that they had arrested Anders Behring Breivik, 32, on suspicion of orchestrating both the Oslo bombing and the youth-camp shooting rampage and had begun searching two apartments that he owns.

Breivik reportedly owns four properties including a farm on the outskirts of Oslo, allegedly to enable him to store legally a large amount of fertilizer.

[SnyderShrugged]

Something about all of this seems off to me. All of his pictures look professionally done including the one of him in a freemason apron. His facebook is brand new and lists Christan conservative hunter. He acted entirely alone in creating, placing, and detonating a bomb... while still killing 80 kids on an island. I don't know what it is yet but something feels strange about this.

I agree with this. It feels off.

[aREDSKIN]

Update-


SUNDVOLLEN, Norway (AP) — Norway's national news agency says police are investigating whether a second suspect was involved in a shooting spree on an island where 84 people were killed.

Police have arrested one man on preliminary charges in the massacre and a bombing in Oslo hours earlier.

NTB is reporting Saturday that witnesses told police two people were involved in the shooting on Utoya island. The agency says police are looking into it.

The agency says that the second man apparently wasn't disguised in police uniform. The man under arrest was wearing a sweater with a police emblem on it.

In total, 91 people were killed in the two attacks.



continues....http://news.yahoo.com/report-police-investigating-2nd-suspect-spree-120330168.html

[HailGreen28]

Horrifying thought I didn't see in the article. How many of the dead were children?

How you don't have the death penalty for that guy, is beyond me.

[SnyderShrugged]

Horrifying thought I didn't see in the article. How many of the dead were children?

How you let someone like that scumbag live, is beyond me.

I read something someway last might that claimed the maximum he could get is 21yrs in prison. No idea if thats accurate, but if so, sad.

[Mad Mike]

My penalty for this scumbag...

One bullet for each person he killed. Slowly. With nicks and flesh wounds to keep him alive as long as possible. Let him suffer, waiting for the next bullet to hit as the fear builds inside him as it did for those children.

Let's see if anyone wants to imitate him after that.

[jpyaks3]

I read something someway last might that claimed the maximum he could get is 21yrs in prison. No idea if thats accurate, but if so, sad.

Yes as a prison sentence but he must be rehabilitated and ready to re-enter society, if he isn't they can keep him there for 5 year periods until he is ready. So more than likely he will be in prison the rest of his life.

[SnyderShrugged]

Yes as a prison sentence but he must be rehabilitated and ready to re-enter society, if he isn't they can keep him there for 5 year periods until he is ready. So more than likely he will be in prison the rest of his life.

I'd place money he could play his "rehabilitated" card easily after 21 yrs of prison. Madmen like these are often excellent actors too. Wish it wasnt the case.

[jpyaks3]

I'd place money he could play his "rehabilitated" card easily after 21 yrs of prison. Madmen like these are often excellent actors too. Wish it wasnt the case.

I trust the Norweigen prison system, it is one of the best in the world. I doubt they would let him out unless he was fully rehabilitated (not terribly likely since he will be in solitary or confined away from other prisoners for most of his sentence).

[SWFLSkins]

NO matter the extremist's religeous affliations, a sane person would not even conceive of doing this. Jim Jones was nuts, David Karesh (sic) was nuts, Osama Bin Laden was nuts, this guy was nuts. In the name of God nobody would ever kill another to promote self-interest. That being said mental illness is no excuse for committing a crime, sorry, but it is not.

---------- Post added July-23rd-2011 at 01:38 PM ----------


I trust the Norweigen prison system, it is one of the best in the world. I doubt they would let him out unless he was fully rehabilitated (not terribly likely since he will be in solitary or confined away from other prisoners for most of his sentence).


This is what I am talking about, fully rehabilitated? Are you f'n kidding me> He should never walk the earth as a free man again.

[thebluefood]

NO matter the extremist's religeous affliations, a sane person would not even conceive of doing this. Jim Jones was nuts, David Karesh (sic) was nuts, Osama Bin Laden was nuts, this guy was nuts. In the name of God nobody would ever kill another to promote self-interest. That being said mental illness is no excuse for committing a crime, sorry, but it is not.


This. Anyone that sees this as something that will sully the reputation of Christianity doesn't know a darn thing about Christianity; just like those people that hate Muslims because of what a few choice idiots choose to do (and yes, thousands in an organization is "few" when you consider there are over a billion Muslims worldwide).

It's a shame because, from what I understand, religion is rather frowned upon in Scandinavian nations.

God help this bastard if he ever pulled this **** in the states, especially in a state like Texas. He'd be on a gurney tomorrow.

[Koolblue13]

This. Anyone that sees this as something that will sully the reputation of Christianity doesn't know a darn thing about Christianity; just like those people that hate Muslims because of what a few choice idiots choose to do (and yes, thousands in an organization is "few" when you consider there are over a billion Muslims worldwide).

It's a shame because, from what I understand, religion is rather frowned upon in Scandinavian nations.

God help this bastard if he ever pulled this **** in the states, especially in a state like Texas. He'd be on a gurney tomorrow.

What? People have been killing for Jesus for a long, long time. Religion is responsible for tons of wars and the Christians are no saints.

[thebluefood]

What? People have been killing for Jesus for a long, long time. Religion is responsible for tons of wars and the Christians are no saints.


No where have I ever denied people have killed in the name of Christ. What am I saying, though, is that the people who have, and the people that choose to condemn the faith as a whole, don't truly understand the tenants of the faith.

[SWFLSkins]

This. Anyone that sees this as something that will sully the reputation of Christianity doesn't know a darn thing about Christianity; just like those people that hate Muslims because of what a few choice idiots choose to do (and yes, thousands in an organization is "few" when you consider there are over a billion Muslims worldwide).

It's a shame because, from what I understand, religion is rather frowned upon in Scandinavian nations.

God help this bastard if he ever pulled this **** in the states, especially in a state like Texas. He'd be on a gurney tomorrow.

I have studied the Native American Indians spiritual practices in the past and always have been interested in other religions, call it a comparative for spiritual value. I consider myself Christian primarily because of cultural upbringing, but first and foremost I like anyone else have a relationship with God. I can't tell others that their God is not the right God, only that God is good and not evil. Doing evil in Gods name is not taught in any spritually based religions in which a higher level of closeness to God is the quest. The NA Indians I found to be really in tune with nature-God's affirmation and creation. One think I read that has always stuck with me is that most Indian tribes built temporary places of worship. Temporay. When nature, be it animals or weather tore down their place of worship it was as God intended to preserve the experience he desired. The quote was, "When the stench of humanity interupts the ability to connect to the creator, the creator changes the place to connect."

Think about that for a minute. Bob Marley said through Rastafarian teachings, i and High. I always thought is was i and I. But the meaning is the same, between you and God. And between God and this guy is not the teaching to kill another, but to help each other along the way, no matter the beliefs that were taught while being raised as a child. And that is why we all should fear any culture teaching hate to children.

---------- Post added July-23rd-2011 at 02:04 PM ----------


What? People have been killing for Jesus for a long, long time. Religion is responsible for tons of wars and the Christians are no saints.

Religions don't kill people, people kill people. People use religions for personal gain since the beginning of time. Organized Religion is an oxy moron ,,such as military intelligence....An oxymoron (plural oxymorons or oxymora) (from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull") is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms. Oxymorons appear in a variety of contexts, including inadvertent errors such as ground pilot and literary oxymorons crafted to reveal a paradox


Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual's inner life; spiritual experience includes that of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

[spjunkies]

Why can't nuts like this fool just put a bullet in his own head before taking his crazy out on innocent people?

Makes me sick to my stomach.

[thebluefood]

Why can't nuts like this fool just put a bullet in his own head before taking his crazy out on innocent people?

Makes me sick to my stomach.

That's the truth. That, or just get HELP. For God's sake, go and see a head shrink or something.

[jpyaks3]

Looks like he had ties to a bunch of right wing groups throughout Europe, notably the English Defense League, who attacked a mosque in Lutton following the Oslo attacks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/norway-attacks-utoya-gunman?cat=world&type=article



Anders Brehing Breivik, the man accused of the murder of at least 91 Norwegians in a twin bomb and gun massacre, boasted online about his discussions with the far right English Defence League and other anti-Islamic European organisations.
.....
The disclosure of Breivik's claimed links with other far right organisations came as details emerged about the rightwing Christian fundamentalist and freemason behind Norway's worst post-war act of violence.

It was revealed that the 32-year-old former member of the country's conservative Progress Party – who had become ever more extreme in his hatred of Muslims, left wingers and the country's political establishment – had ordered six tonnes of fertiliser in May to be used in the bombing. While police continued to interrogate Breivik, who was charged with the mass killings, evidence of his increasingly far right world view emerged from an article he had posted on several Scandinavian websites, including Nordisk – a site frequented by neo-Nazis, far right radicals and Islamophobes since 2009.

The Norwegian daily VG quoted one of Breivik's friends saying that he had become a rightwing extremist in his late 20s and was now a strong opponent of multi-culturalism, expressing strong nationalistic views in online debates.

Breivik had talked admiringly about conversations he had had with unnamed English Defence League members and the organisation Stop the Islamification of Europe over the success of provocative street actions leading to violence.

"I have on some occasions had discussions with SIOE and EDL and recommended them to use certain strategies," he wrote two years ago.

"The tactics of the EDL are now to 'lure' an overreaction from the Jihad Youth/Extreme-Marxists, something they have succeeded in doing several times already." Contacted about the allegation by email by last night the EDL had not answered.

[scruffylookin]

Shocker. Right wing religious conservative hunter has such a lack of respect for any life. Color me surprised.

Let's watch as he is dismissed as a mad man and the ideology that is shared by this guy by thousands of others is swept under the rug like it was done here after Oklahoma City.

Right wing Christian terrorists are no better than the right wing Islamic terrorists responsible for 9-11.

[SkinsHokieFan]

He wrote a 1400 page Islamaphobic/anti leftist book and called for a new crusade

http://www.sharepdfbooks.com/3TZOU0V52W6B/2083_-_A_European_Declaration_of_Independence.pdf.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=no&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.tv2.no/nyheter/innenriks/gjerningsmannen-la-ut-video-og-manifest-paa-nettet-3545104.html


The offender let out the video and manifesto on the Web
The video and the document should have been uploaded on the web a few hours before the bomb went off in downtown Oslo.

TV 2 know that the 32-year-old terror accused Oslo man has confessed to having published the material on the web. There are sources in the police confirming this to the TV 2

Anders Behring Breivik (32) Prior to the attacks, published a long manifesto and a video on the Internet, where he describes the attacks he was about to perform.

Both the video and the document is apparently published online on Friday 22 July - the day the attacks occurred.

"Marxist Hunter"
It is about more than twelve minutes long video, which Behring Brevik compare themselves with Knights, and encourage a year-long war against Marxism and Islamism.

He has also published a manuscript of 1,500 pages which he explains very extreme political views. In addition, he describes in detail how an attack to be carried out. Everything from the use of the car bomb of the type of equipment to be used in an attack.

On an image that has not previously been known pose the seemingly Anders Behring Breivik in a diving suit with what looks like an automatic rifle. On his shoulder he has a badge that says "Marxist Hunter."

In the document, which is over 1500 pages the author elaborates on events throughout history and will repeatedly return to the Knights Templar, or Knights Templar as they say in English.

Today, the Knights Templar, an order within the Masonic movement, which also Anders Behring Breivik was a member of. He will now be excluded from the Masonic Order.



Link for more

[oisn1]

No they don't fight like soldiers but those among the whiny want them to be treated like soldiers when they are captured.

Oslo was one of my favorite liberty ports when My ships did a North Atlantic Cruise back in the day.

My condolences to those hurt and murdered by the Anti Bacon and dress your women in burlap sacks demographic.

It is still a religion of peace, Allegedly.

Hmmmm, I'm sure NavyDave is typing an apology as we speak. I mean it's horrible that everyone just assumed that Muslims were behind this, but at least we can apologize for our bigoted preconceptions.

[Destino]

His extreme views are found in his solutions (as sadly is now obvious). The problems he saw however are actually common political views. His belief that multiculturalism is a Marxist plot to destroy European culture for instance. We've seen that very same argument made here in immigration debates. He saw everything left as Marxism and look at the camp if young people he targeted. If the video attributed to him is in fact his, he seemed to like with Knights Templar images from the crusades which brings in his Christian component.

It's rumored that there is a 1500 page manefesto out there but I haven't seen it confirmed that he wrote it.

[HailGreen28]

Shocker. Right wing religious conservative hunter has such a lack of respect for any life. Color me surprised.

Let's watch as he is dismissed as a mad man and the ideology that is shared by this guy by thousands of others is swept under the rug like it was done here after Oklahoma City.

Right wing Christian terrorists are no better than the right wing Islamic terrorists responsible for 9-11.Agreed. People on both "sides" of left-right, should stop making excuses for scum like this. This stuff should be indefensible.

[SkinsHokieFan]

The video

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89a_1311444384

[Predicto]

Hurray. Finally Liberal Progressives, apparently have a strawman from the right to point a collective finger at since all of the previous mass murderers and terrorists were obviously far left. And the lame attempt to not claim the Terrorist who hide behind the religion of peace is laughable when even two watt light bulbs know the idealogy they embrace outside of the violence is Socialism.


Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

"no true Scotsman...."

"Everything bad that happens is 'far left' everything good that happens is 'conservative'"

"Hitler was a socialist..."

You are a piece of work, my friend.



"

[Hunter44]

You are a piece of work, my friend.



He's just a hater...

Many forget what their own religion says. "They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)"

[abdcskins]

I hate religion so much. Can we just get rid of it? There is no good use for it. Just allows people to emphasize differences. And differences are like, such a horrible thing.

I co-sign what Predicto just said.

[FanboyOf91]

This manifesto has some first-class lunacy:


8. After the transitional period has ended
We will reform our democratical model from a “mass-democracy model” to a model more
resembling the Russian system of administered democracy. The patriotic tribunal will
remain as a guardian council after the transitional period has ended. Their primary tasks
and roles will consist of the following:
- The national military command, the patriotic guard and the police forces will all be
under the direct and full control of the of the guardian council and not the
government. However, the government will have the right to decide just about
any other matter with only a few exceptions.
- The guardian council will prevent hardcore Marxists/cultural Marxists from once
again infiltrating the various sectors of society.
- The guardian council will ensure that the suicidal humanists and capitalist
globalists do not misuse their influence in a way that significantly undermines the
country or the people.
- The guardian council will ensure that the nation maintains a fertility rate of at
least 2,1. If the government fails to reach this target, the guardian council may
implement any and all measures necessary in order to reach sustainability.
- The guardian council will ensure that monocultural and cultural conservative
doctrines are enacted.
- The guardian council may veto any resolution but should under optimal
circumstances never have to exercise this right.



3.6 Explanation of the European Civil War - Phase 1, 2 and 3
Phase of Dialogue, 1955-1999
- From the creation of EU’s Eurabia project in combination with the implementation of
cultural Marxism (European multiculturalism) in 1955 to the NATO bombing campaigns of
Serbian forces in 1999 authorised by criminal Western European and US leaders.
European Civil War, Phase 1 – 1999-2030
- Islam, 2-30% based on country
- Open source warfare, military shock attacks by clandestine cell systems.
- Further consolidation of conservative forces.
European Civil War, Phase 2 – 2030-2070
- Islam, 15-40% based on country
- Consolidation continues, more advanced forms of resistance groups.
- Preparation for pan-European coup d’états.
European Civil War, Phase 3 – 2070-2083
- Islam, 30-50% based on country
- Pan-European coup d’états. Cultural Communism/multiculturalism defeated in the first
European country followed by the rest.
- The implementation of a Cultural Conservative political agenda begins.
- Execution of cultural Marxist/multiculturalist category A and B traitors initiated.
- Deportation of Muslims initiated.



Pauperes commilitones Christi Templique Solomonici – PCCTS
(the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of
Solomon), the Knights Templar was re-founded in London in
2002 by representatives from eight European countries, for
the purpose of serving the interests of the free indigenous peoples of Europe and to fight
against the ongoing European Jihad (referred to as the “third Jihad”). The Knights
Templar was re-founded as a pan-European nationalist military order and a military/
criminal tribunal with two primary objectives. The order is to serve
as an armed Indigenous Rights Organisation and as a Crusader
Movement (anti-Jihad movement).
The founding session (two meetings consisting of 4 founding
members and host as a security precaution) was held in London,
United Kingdom – Apr, 2002.
Founding (re-founding) members:
Anonymous 1 - Nationality: English Protestant (Host)
Anonymous 2 - Nationality: English Christian atheist
Anonymous 3 - Nationality: French Catholic
Anonymous 4 - Nationality: German Christian atheist
Anonymous 5 - Nationality: Dutch Christian agnostic
Anonymous 6 - Nationality: Greek Orthodox
Anonymous 7 - Nationality: Russian Christian atheist
Anonymous 8 - Nationality: Norwegian Protestant (member and proxy for 9)
Anonymous 9 - Nationality: Serbian Orthodox (by proxy, location: Monrovia, Liberia)
Unable to attend:
Anonymous 10 – Nationality: Swedish
Anonymous 11 – Nationality: Belgian
Anonymous 12 – Nationality: European-American

Apparently, Europe has until January 1, 2020 to surrender or they'll start launching attacks on nuclear power plants.

[luckydevil]

Some of writings are very similar to what Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer would write.

[Destino]

I hate religion so much. Can we just get rid of it? There is no good use for it. Just allows people to emphasize differences. And differences are like, such a horrible thing.

Do you even realize how contradictory your post is? This notion of solving problems by getting rid of differences is misguided and short sighted.

---------- Post added July-24th-2011 at 12:33 AM ----------




Hurray. Finally Liberal Progressives, apparently have a strawman from the right to point a collective finger at since all of the previous mass murderers and terrorists were obviously far left. And the lame attempt to not claim the Terrorist who hide behind the religion of peace is laughable when even two watt light bulbs know the idealogy they embrace outside of the violence is Socialism.
I don't speak NavyDave but is he saying Islamic extremists are leftists?

[Mickalino]

I don't speak NavyDave

ES is working on acquiring an interpreter

[Destino]

This manifesto has some first-class lunacy:

Apparently, Europe has until January 1, 2020 to surrender or they'll start launching attacks on nuclear power plants.

I don't think governments can afford to write it off. He's claiming to have started a terrorist organization in 2002 named Knights Templar with reps from many European nations and an American according to your quote. His manifesto contains a terrorism "how to" guide.

[Mickalino]

I don't think governments can afford to write it off. He's claiming to have started a terrorist organization in 2002 named Knights Templar with reps from many European nations and an American according to your quote. His manifesto contains a terrorism "how to" guide.

And he'll be no older than 53 when he gets out of jail, in order to attempt to complete his mission.

[abdcskins]

Do you even realize how contradictory your post is? This notion of solving problems by getting rid of differences is misguided and short sighted.[COLOR="Gold"]



I was deliberately exaggerating to make the point that fanatics use religion to serve their own personal crusade. It is worthless gobbly gook.

[Lil Kenzo]

Regardless of race, religion or political beliefs...this is just another reminder of the terrible world that we live in. This is a story of one man murdering 87 people. I couldnt careless what in the hell he believes in, what God he praises, political beliefs, what country he lives in, his skin color, age etc. Hes a sick individual who took the lives of 87 loved people...all of which were important to their families and friends. All im trying to say here is that people pay too much attention to the things that dont matter. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims families, they didnt deserve to have their lives cut short and taken from their familes.

[Mickalino]

Regardless of race, religion or political beliefs...this is just another reminder of the terrible world that we live in. This is a story of one man murdering 87 people. I couldnt careless what in the hell he believes in, what God he praises, political beliefs, what country he lives in, his skin color, age etc. Hes a sick individual who took the lives of 87 loved people...all of which were important to their families and friends. All im trying to say here is that people pay too much attention to the things that dont matter. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims families, they didnt deserve to have their lives cut short and taken from their familes.

True dat. If religion was such a big issue with violence, there would be whole lot more massacres than this. It takes a sick individual to start with, for something like religion or whatever else to influence him to do such a thing.
The only thing we can truly tie this with, or put the blame on, is Kato Kaelin, since the dude looks just like him.

[twa]

Regardless of race, religion or political beliefs...this is just another reminder of the terrible world that we live in. This is a story of one man murdering 87 people. I couldnt careless what in the hell he believes in, what God he praises, political beliefs, what country he lives in, his skin color, age etc. Hes a sick individual who took the lives of 87 loved people...all of which were important to their families and friends. All im trying to say here is that people pay too much attention to the things that dont matter. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims families, they didnt deserve to have their lives cut short and taken from their familes.

They matter in gauging a greater or continuing threat.....but I agree he individually is simply murdering scum

[Destino]

This isn't religiously motivated as much as political and cultural. This guy is motivated by his hatred of Marxism. He thinks that Muslims migration to Europe is a Marxist plot to defeat conservatives nationalists. Religion in this instance is a subset of overall European culture he feels is threatened. Consider this same argument exists in the US with Mexican immigration... And as Catholics and Christians they aren't a religious threat.

These motives matter when the terrorist claims he's a member of a terrorist group. If it exists or not remains to be seen but I bet intelligence agencies are looking into it. The fact that his attack has increased the distribution of his right wing terrorism FAQ under the guise of a manifesto is troubling.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

This isn't religiously motivated as much as political. This guy is motivated by his hatred of Marxism. He thinks that Muslims migration to Europe is a Marxist plot to defeat conservatives nationalists. Religion in this instance is a subset of overall European culture he feels is threatened.

Sounds like Glenn Beck. No, seriously.

[techboy]

I hate religion so much. Can we just get rid of it? There is no good use for it. Just allows people to emphasize differences. And differences are like, such a horrible thing.

You know what's ironic about this quote? Anti-Islamic fervor, with laws banning burkas and minarets and such, is on the rise in Europe, but it's rooted in extremist secular thinking, kind of like you're displaying here.

There's a natural tendency for Americans to see the world through our own lens, and because in this country anti-Islamic sentiment is largely rooted in fundamentalist Christianity, I guess some people are just naturally projecting that on Europe as well, but you need to remember that Europe (and especially Scandanavia) is extremely secular, to the point that many churches only stay open as tourist attractions, and yet anti-Muslim laws are passed. Odd, huh?

Take a look at the list of colleagues in the one quote a page back. Notice all the atheists and agnostics? The news is giving this guy a lot of adjectives... Christian, hunter, Freemason, but the one that seems relevant is "right wing", especially when you read this here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/norway-attacks-police-say-suspect-used-car-bomb-two-guns-killing-at-least-92/2011/07/23/gIQAVYeOVI_story_1.html):


The right-wing Progress Party, the second-largest political bloc in the country, favors a severely restricted immigration policy, but it has disavowed violence, and some of its most extremist members were pushed out several years ago.

Breivik was a youth member of the party from 1999 until 2004, Norwegian media reported, but he appears to have split from the group because he felt it was not sufficiently anti-immigrant, according to Internet postings attributed to him on a far-right Web site, Document.no .

Based on Breivik’s apparent online writings, Jupskas said, “His whole ideology is really infused by this idea that the Norwegian political establishment has betrayed the country, that they’ve turned this into a multicultural experiment and that someone has to put a stop to it.”

So he left the party because it wasn't extremist enough, and ended up attacking a government building and a left-leaning political conference, and people want to make this out to be about his Christianity? Why not that he's a hunter? I'm leaving out the Freemasonry because Destino is right... that is going to crop up in the conspiracy theories before long.

It's a shame that people need to use a tragedy to attack Islam and Christianity.

---------- Post added July-23rd-2011 at 10:57 PM ----------


This isn't religiously motivated as much as political and cultural. This guy is motivated by his hatred of Marxism. He thinks that Muslims migration to Europe is a Marxist plot to defeat conservatives nationalists. Religion in this instance is a subset of overall European culture he feels is threatened.

I think this is dead on. All of the religious references come down to cultural identity. This would shed some light on why several of the "founding members" are listed as "Christian atheist".

---------- Post added July-23rd-2011 at 10:59 PM ----------


Sounds like Glenn Beck. No, seriously.

Magnify Beck's hysteria, throw in some paranoid schizophrenia and/or other mental illness, and this is pretty much what you get.

[FanboyOf91]

Whoa, he's confessing everything!


Personal reflections and experiences during several preparation phases
April/May 2002
I am the Norwegian delegate to the founding meeting in London, England and ordinated as
the 8th Justiciar Knight for the PCCTS, Knights Templar Europe. I joined the session after
visiting one of the initial facilitators, a Serbian Crusader Commander and war hero, in
Monrovia, Liberia. Certain long term tasks are delegated and I am one of two who are
asked to create a compendium based on the information I have acquired from the other
founders during our sessions. Our primary objective is to develop PCCTS, Knights Templar
into becoming the foremost conservative revolutionary movement in Western Europe the
next few decades. This in relation to developing a new type of European nationalism
referred to as Crusader Nationalism. This new political denomination of nationalism will
become the foremost counterweight to National Socialism and other cultural conservative
political denominations, on the cultural right wing. Everyone is using code names; mine is
Sigurd (the Crusader) while my assigned mentor is referred to as Richard (the
Lionhearted). I believe Im the youngest one here.
I am going to discontinue my involvement in the Norwegian Progress Party as I have lost
faith in the democratic struggle to save Europe from Islamification. After 65 years of harsh
political oppression, demonization and ridicule from the communist-globalist cultural
establishment, directed at any and all who opposes multiculturalism, there are still no
indications that this communist-globalist hegemony will ever allow PP to take control. My
party is systematically vilified and sabotaged by a united media before every single
election. And even if they ever did manage to form a majority government with Høyre (the
Conservative Party) their principles and party program would not be conservative enough
to halt the ongoing Islamic demographic warfare OR increase the ethnic Norwegian fertility
rate from 1,4 to 2,1. The only thing PP has achieved so far is to give false hope to
Norwegians. They say that democratic struggle is the only solution, when it is clearly
already lost. How can we democratically compete with a regime that is mass-importing
hundreds of thousands of new voters? The PP is pacifying Norwegians by giving them false
hope and I refuse to continue to have any involvement in this. Armed struggle appears
futile at this point but it is the only way forward.


2002-2006
I am required to build a capital base in order to fund the creation of the compendium. I
don’t know if I will ever proceed with a martyrdom operation at this point as it simply
seems too radical.
My plan A is to attempt to acquire 3 million Euro, in which case I plan to establish a pan-
European organizational platform that will attempt to grow organically as a support
organization which will distribute a “legal version” of the compendium.
If I fail to generate the specified amount I will move forward with the operation, in order to
market the compendium that way.
As of 2005 I have managed to generate 500 000 Euro, but I am still 2,5 million Euro short.
I will attempt to generate the remaining amount through continued stock/options
speculation. I can afford to lose up to 250 000 Euro without it compromising the
completion of the compendium and the subsequent effectuation of the operation.
Stock/option speculation did not work out. I will need to cut my losses and proceed to plan
B.
After cutting my losses, I now have a minimum of funds to complete my two tasks (in
excess of 250 000 Euro).

2006-2008
Researching and writing the compendium: “A European Declaration of Independence”




Autumn – 2009 - Phase shift
I’m in a phase shift with my project. The compendium is complete and I currently preparing
for the next phase. I’m creating two different and “professional looking” prospectuses for
“business ventures”. A mining company and a small farm operation. The reasoning for this
decision is to create a credible cover in case I am arrested in regards to the purchase and
smuggling of explosives or components to explosives - fertiliser. In this regard I created a
new company called Geofarm, which might act as a credible cover for such activities. I
spent about 2 weeks cannibalizing an existing Mining prospectus. In addition to the
prospectus I have created I will create two websites and business cards. I also intend to
contact suppliers of equipment related to these industries so that they may act as future
witnesses, collaborating my story, should I ever need it. If I do get arrested in this
“acquirement phase” I figure that they will have a hard time proving that my intention is to
contribute and fight in the ongoing European civil war. Sure, they will attempt to charge me
with terror but they will not have enough evidence to incarcerate me (due to my covers).
Also considering the fact that I have never done anything illegal in the past. If I do get
caught I will, however, be placed on every imaginable watch list for the rest of my life and
will thus be unable to partake in any advance operation. In this case I will have to cancel
the primary operation and instead go with my secondary operation of lesser significance.
Such is the life of a resistance fighter.


Then he goes on to describe his physical (he takes steroids) and weapons training and his preparation of the explosives.


As for girlfriends; I do get the occasional lead, or the occasional girl making a move,
especially now a day as I’m fit like hell and feel great. But I’m trying to avoid relationships
as it would only complicate my plans and it may jeopardize my operation. And I don’t feel
comfortable manipulating girls any more into one night stands. I am not that person any
more. I did screw two girls in Prague though, but that was mainly because it was a realistic
chance that I would end up dead during the process of establishing a weapons connection.
I won’t make any effort to try to completely justify it though. Human males are imperfect
by default as they are plagued by their biological needs. Nevertheless, screwing around
outside of marriage is after all a relatively small sin compared to the huge amounts of
grace I am about to generate with my martyrdom operation. And it is essential that you do
what is required to keep moral and motivation at a high level; especially, just prior to
operation critical moments. I have reserved 2000 Euro from my operations budget which I
intend to spend on a high quality model escort girl 1 week prior to execution of the
mission. I will probably arrange that just before or after I attend my final martyrs mass in
Frogner Church. It will contribute to ease my mind as I imagine I will get tense and very
nervous. It is easier to face death if you know you are biologically, mentally and spiritually
at ease.

Alas, he will not be able to afford them.


I guess it is tempting for the many who have endured years of vilification, to just start
believing the propaganda and embrace NS fully. However, I remain a staunch anti-Nazi and
I blame NSDAP for the situation we are in. Hadn’t it been for the actions of the cultural
right wing extremists known as the NSDAP our Western European countries would not be
dominated by the cultural Marxist extremist regimes we witness today. If the NSDAP had
been isolationistic instead of imperialistic(expansionist) and just deported the Jews (to a
liberated and Muslim free Zion) instead of massacring them, the anti-European hate
ideology known as multiculturalism would have never been institutionalized in Western
Europe, because the Marxists would never have been so radicalized to begin with. The
cultural conservatives would have been in a very strong and dominant situation today.
Western European countries would have had cultural conservative doctrines similar to what
we see in Japan and South Korea.

We must keep this lesson in mind. When we seize political and military power in the future;
while tempting to unleash hell to avenge all our ravaged and dead brothers and sisters, we
must keep in mind that replacing a cultural Marxist extremist regime with a cultural
conservative extremist regime will only fail to break the cycle where history always repeats
itself. So instead of replacing this tyrannical and extremist multiculturalist regime with an
equivalent right wing one, we must think and act pragmatically with a long term objective.
We must manage to break the historical “Marxist vs. Conservative” cycle or we risk that the
cultural Marxists will emerge as a dominating force again after 20-100 years. As such, we
should limit the executions of category A and B traitors to 200 000 in Western Europe. A
better alternative than execution of the remaining, the category C traitors, would be to
establish a large multiculturalist zone in southern/eastern Europe, perhaps Anatolia, or on
other territories which has been invaded and occupied by Muslims. In these newly created
zones; the cultural Marxists category C traitors and those of the non-Europeans considered
as politically disloyal will be deported to and allowed to live and create their imaginary
utopia. A cultural Marxist or a so called “internationalist” does not feel much love for his
ancestral country as he believes we are all citizens in a global community. So they should
recover easily from the process of being deported to another country.

About a month ago:


Saturday June 18 - Day 48: I woke up at 11.00 and checked my phone. There was an SMS sent
09.30 from Tonje, the owners girlfriend. She said she was ON HER WAY UP to pick up some
equipment from the barn!!! Omfg; considering the fact that it's a 2-2,5 hour's drive from the
capital she would be here in about half an hour!!! I'm so ****ed! She has a large storage room in
the back of the barn and she would need to pass all my ANFO bags to get there. I would need 12
hours minimum to relocate the 1,2 tons of ANFO, not to mention de-construct my chemistry rig,
fume hood, fan and clean up all the beakers etc spread all around. And the living room is full of
yellow stains. It seems I will be left no choice than to use my glock and initiate the evacuation
plan!
I called her up. Luckily she hadn't left yet. Thank God! I fed her a story which resulted in us
agreeing that she would come on Monday around 20.00. That was a real close one...

He goes into great detail about how he made the bomb and thinks that anyone could repeat his steps in a month.

This should be an easy life sentence, though I wish the Norwegians would do a one-off reinstatement of the death penalty just for this guy.

[Mickalino]

This should be an easy life sentence

Not.

The maximum prison sentence for any crime in Norway is 21 years.

[Koolblue13]

I enjoy seeing all the people wishing death and pain on this guy. :ols:

It's a violent world, driven by greed and convenience. Things like this will continue and increase in frequency.

[FanboyOf91]

Not.

The maximum prison sentence for any crime in Norway is 21 years.

"Containment" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway).


The maximum indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is also set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. "Containment" is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of committing violent crimes in the future. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment.
If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result in actual life imprisonment. [1] However, the offender can be paroled or released at any time if it is determined that the offender is no longer a danger to society.

[Park City Skins]

Nevermind. FanboyOf91 beat me to it.

[Mickalino]

"Containment" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway).

Unfortunately, though....

1) There is no guarantee the containment will last a lifetime
2) There is no precedence in Norway, to determine how close to certain it will be implemented.

[Destino]

Unfortunately, though....

1) There is no guarantee the containment will last a lifetime
2) There is no precedence in Norway, to determine how close to certain it will be implemented.

This is the first terrorist attack and he killed 80+ children and young people. If it's going to happen it will be for this guy. Assuming they don't kill him in prison.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Some of writings are very similar to what Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer would write.

He was clearly inspired by their writings


Page 754:

Fjordman’s book tips
I could also recommend some books that people should read.
About Islam I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer. Bat Ye’or’s
books are groundbreaking and important, though admittedly not always easy to read.
The Legacy of Jihad by Andrew Bostom should be considered required reading for all
those interested in Islam. It is the best and most complete book available on the subject
in English, and possibly in any language. Ibn Warraq’s books are excellent, starting with
his Defending the West . Understanding Muhammad by the Iranian ex-Muslim Ali Sina is
also worth reading, as is Defeating Jihad by Serge Trifkovic.

Also posted from another article is that this is also a manual for committing terrorist attacks on various targets by various means. It also contains tacit threats and suggestions that “traitors be executed.” The whole thesis is also the Fortuyn-Wilders notions that Islam is “a violent ideology” not even Salafi are peaceful.

[HailGreen28]

I enjoy seeing all the people wishing death and pain on this guy. :ols:

It's a violent world, driven by greed and convenience. Things like this will continue and increase in frequency.Unless you rightfully oppose the murdering scum that do stuff like kill 80 people at a youth camp, or crash airliners into office buildings. Whether it's religious movements or conspiracy theorists promoting that crap. Not making excuses for said indefensible acts, like this guy actually rationalizing the 9/11 terrorists:


They brought the fight to us, to try and open Americas eyes, despite liking the people here. We were held accountable, for what the government we elected have been doing. That's according to Bin Laden.

Terrorists should be condemned and confronted. How you do that, is an issue, but not rationalizing it. Some acts, like this youth camp shooting and 9/11, do cross the line.

[Koolblue13]

Unless you rightfully oppose the murdering scum that do stuff like kill 80 people at a youth camp, or crash airliners into office buildings. Whether it's religious movements or conspiracy theorists promoting that crap. Not making excuses for said indefensible acts, like this guy actually rationalizing the 9/11 terrorists:

I don't like violence and you know what they say about an eye for an eye.

And of course I would rationalize why we were attacked, how else would you know why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again?

You can't bomb everybody into being a friend.

[HailGreen28]

I don't like violence and you know what they say about an eye for an eye.

And of course I would rationalize why we were attacked, how else would you know why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again?

You can't bomb everybody into being a friend.You're conveniently not applying that to the people you need to, koolblue. The kids in the youth camp and on those planes were doing nothing.

Confront the ideologies that spawn such evil. Neither the Norwegian murderer or islamic extremists are trying "to try and open Americas eyes". They are promoting sick ideologies that should be confronted. Ideologies that would exist even if we stopped dropping bombs altogether. Such extremists aren't going to be your friends, even if you don't bomb them. In fact, if left to their devices, we get wonderful paradises like Taliban run Afghanistan and the Jim Jones Camp.

edit: For example. The guys in the same movement as this shooter, have a lot to answer for their rhethoric. Not excuses.

[No Excuses]

Confront the ideologies that spawn such evil. Neither the Norwegian murderer or islamic extremists are trying "to try and open Americas eyes". They are promoting a sick ideology that should be confronted. Ideologies that would exist even if we stopped dropping bombs altogether. Such extremists aren't going to be your friends, even if you don't bomb them. In fact, if left to their devices, we get wonderful paradises like Taliban run Afghanistan and the Jim Jones Camp.

Right now, they aren't even hesitating in taking out their own "people" who they apparently "protect" against the "evil" West. See: Karachi, Pakistan.

[Koolblue13]

You're conveniently not applying that to the people you need to, koolblue. The kids in the youth camp and on those planes were doing nothing.

Confront the ideologies that spawn such evil. Neither the Norwegian murderer or islamic extremists are trying "to try and open Americas eyes". They are promoting sick ideologies that should be confronted. Ideologies that would exist even if we stopped dropping bombs altogether. Such extremists aren't going to be your friends, even if you don't bomb them. In fact, if left to their devices, we get wonderful paradises like Taliban run Afghanistan and the Jim Jones Camp.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to justify any of these things or that I don't find them to be horrifically tragic, because I do.

[HailGreen28]

I hope you don't think I'm trying to justify any of these things or that I don't find them to be horrifically tragic, because I do.You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone. But yeah you did.

They brought the fight to us, to try and open Americas eyes, despite liking the people here. We were held accountable, for what the government we elected have been doing..

---------- Post added July-24th-2011 at 11:31 AM ----------


Right now, they aren't even hesitating in taking out their own "people" who they apparently "protect" against the "evil" West. See: Karachi, Pakistan.Yeah, seems like there's a common thread in a lot of different types of fanatics. They end up executing the people they claim to care about. Maybe it's because it's the psychopaths (people who literally don't care about other people at all) who act out on this stuff, cowardice, any way, it seems like the ideology is just an excuse or rationalization itself.

edit: just so I'm clear, that's one reason such ideologies need to be called out as BS.

[Koolblue13]

You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone. But yeah you did.

I rationalize it, but I don't justify it. Big difference. I just don't wear "America **** yeah" blinders.

Also, PCS said if this conversation continues, we are banned, so please stop bringing it up.

[Patrick Evidente]

Hurray. Finally Liberal Progressives, apparently have a strawman from the right to point a collective finger at since all of the previous mass murderers and terrorists were obviously far left.

:ols:

This guy is awesome!

[HailGreen28]

I rationalize it, but I don't justify it. Big difference. I just don't wear "America **** yeah" blinders.

Also, PCS said if this conversation continues, we are banned, so please stop bringing it up.Good point about what PCS said. My point is that such actions of any such ideology shouldn't be rationalized. And shouldn't be rationalized because of anybody being on any particular "side". Nobody should rationalize stuff like this happening, is my point. Or attack some other "side" on the basis of stuff like this. We should all be in agreement that groups that promote stuff like this is wrong. And not say "well so-and-so over here made them do it".

I'm not trying to argue sides, like I think PCS is warning about, I'm talking about all such actions being inexcusable.

[Koolblue13]

Good point about what PCS said. My point is that such actions shouldn't be rationalized. And shouldn't be rationalized because of anybody being on any particular "side". Nobody should rationalize stuff like this happening, is my point. Or attack some other "side" on he basis of stuff like this. We should all be in agreement that groups that promote stuff like this is wrong. And not say "well so-and-so over here made them do it".

Okay, I just think we should learn from it, so it doesn't happen again. Agree to disagree.

[HailGreen28]

Agree to disagree.:cheers: agreed.

[twa]

Okay, I just think we should learn from it, so it doesn't happen again. Agree to disagree.


Learn not to piss off the fanatics?....Good Luck

We provide avenues for change.....murder is not a accepted one

[Destino]

Learn not to piss off the fanatics?....Good Luck
Which fanatics? Because if you act not to piss off one group, you'll anger another. lol

[FanboyOf91]

Part of that manifesto seems to have been plagiarized from the Unabomber; he replaced "leftist" with "cultural Marxist":

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=no&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.document.no/2011/07/behring-breivik-kopierte-una-bomberen/&usg=ALkJrhh68yvrC1MeS7Ys-Zw3ixM3FiAnzA

[Destino]

Part of that manifesto seems to have been plagiarized from the Unabomber; he replaced "leftist" with "cultural Marxist":

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=no&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.document.no/2011/07/behring-breivik-kopierte-una-bomberen/&usg=ALkJrhh68yvrC1MeS7Ys-Zw3ixM3FiAnzA
Doesn't he say at the beginning that much of the document is taken from various sources?

For some reason I never saw the uni-bomber as a right wing terrorist. I was a teenager at the time though so I didn't really know why he was killing people.

[FanboyOf91]

Doesn't he say at the beginning that much of the document is taken from various sources?

He's been careful to cite his sources, but neither Ted Kaczynski's name or the Unabomber's name shows up in the manifesto.

[Destino]

Breivik has admitted he perpetrated the atrocity but denied criminal responsibility as it emerged he left a 1,500 page manifesto of Right-wing ranting.

Police said that Breivik, 32, acted alone after some witness accounts said a second gunman had taken part in a mass shooting.

The internet document, posted online just hours before the attack, shows his rampage had been planned for at least two years.

It is part diary, part bomb-making manual and part political rant in which Anders Behring Breivik details his Islamophobia, attacks on Marxism and his initiation as a Knight Templar.

The document describes a secret meeting in London, in April 2002, to reconstitute the "Knights Templar", a Crusader military order

He wrote that he had come into contact with Serbian cultural conservatives on the internet and then with other key individuals across Europe.

He wrote: "I met with them for the first time in London... the founding session in London, 2002. I was the youngest one there, 23 years old at the time.

"One of the key founders instructed the rest of the group about several topics related to the goal of the organisation. I believe I scribbled down more than 50 full pages of notes regarding all possible related topics.

"Much of these notes are forwarded in the book 2083. It was basically a detailed long term plan on how to seize power in Western Europe."

His "martyrdom operation" diary, titled “2083: A European Declaration of Independence", shows he had been preparing the operation since at least autumn 2009.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8657141/Norway-killer-Anders-Behring-Breiviks-plan-to-seize-power-in-Europe-after-London-visit.html

Think these other people actually exist? Tracking down "Templar" isn't going to be easy being that they are a popular chapter in history with a lot of fans and spin off groups.

[Koala]

I was deliberately exaggerating to make the point that fanatics use religion to serve their own personal crusade. It is worthless gobbly gook.

1) Exactly, fanatics serve their own personal crusade, the truly righteous use religion to serve GOD.

2) Most people use religion to improve themselves, the lives of people around them, and to serve God by serving their fellow humans. To write off religion as worthless gobbly gook means you are unappreciative of the massive amounts of good that religion has inspired people to do. This is not totally unsurprising, the media tends not to focus on the good acts of the religious, and the religious themselves tend to prefer to avoid taking public credit for thier acts lest people confuse their intention.

3) I hate to agree with NavyDave, but the Godless and those driven by primarily secular ideals have probably killed more people in the last century alone than religion has killed since the beginning of time. Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, MAo, Saddam, the Bolsheviks,the USSR, WWI, WWII, Korea, Cambodia, Rwanda, Vietnam -- all of those were driven by non-religious ideals. Nationalism is a sickness that has killed way more people than religion ever did, so I fail to see how the true problems of this world are the people who actually that all people will eventually be held accountable for their actions.

[jpyaks3]

3) I hate to agree with NavyDave, but the Godless and those driven by primarily secular ideals have probably killed more people in the last century alone than religion has killed since the beginning of time. Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, MAo, Saddam, the Bolsheviks,the USSR, WWI, WWII, Korea, Cambodia, Rwanda, Vietnam -- all of those were driven by non-religious ideals. Nationalism is a sickness that has killed way more people than religion ever did, so I fail to see how the true problems of this world are the people who actually that all people will eventually be held accountable for their actions.

Wait a minute here....the godless? Yes some of those wars and actions weren't committed in religions name but you can't blame the non-religious for that. That is ridiculous, there is no point counting up body counts but to lay all those things at the feet of the "godless" is frankly absurd.

[Koala]

Wait a minute here....the godless? Yes some of those wars and actions weren't committed in religions name but you can't blame the non-religious for that. That is ridiculous, there is no point counting up body counts but to lay all those things at the feet of the "godless" is frankly absurd.

Calm down, learn some basic reading skillos. There was an AND in that sentence. I said the Godless AND those driven by primarily secvula/non-religious ideals. Because those driven by primarlily non-religious ideals are not necessarily Godless or atheist. Which means they are seperate groups who together I am saying have killed more than the religious wackos. I would count Hitler as more in the non-religious group (i.e. driven primarily by something other than religion, such as nationalism/racism/fascism), while the Stalins and Mao's of the world are clearly in the atheist/Godless category.

Of course you dont want to do a body count, the body count proves my point.

Im not "blaming" anybody, Im simply sick to death of the retarded opinion that religion is to blame for most of the world's violence historically, when it is actually far from the truth as non-relgious wackos have killed waaaaay more people than religious wackos have. Wackos either way, with neither religion nor secular ideals to blame as much as the wacko themself, of crouse is the mature viewpoint but I just kinda snapped after hearing too many idiots blame everything on religion and decided to use their own idiotic logic against them.

Edit: On closer inspection, Im guessing your viewpoint is that its absurd to blame any system of beliefs, religious or non-religious, for the evils of the world and the actions of the evil/psychotic men of the world Which I suppose is a good point, so forgive me for the unnecessarily grouchy response. I just hope that you see that it is just as ridiculous, if not more ridiculous, to lay everything at the feet of religion as it its to lay everything at the feet of the "godless".

[Koolblue13]

I'm an idiot because I said that religion has caused violence throughout the years, huh? umkay.....

But what do I know, I'm just a godless idiot pacifist, who donates and volunteers at the Philly SPCA. I don't know how I went so wrong, without a big dose of religion to guide me.

[jpyaks3]

Calm down, learn some basic reading skillos. There was an AND in that sentence. I said the Godless AND those driven by primarily secvula/non-religious ideals. Because those driven by primarlily non-religious ideals are not necessarily Godless or atheist. Which means they are seperate groups who together I am saying have killed more than the religious wackos. I would count Hitler as more in the non-religious group (i.e. driven primarily by something other than religion, such as nationalism/racism/fascism), while the Stalins and Mao's of the world are clearly in the atheist/Godless category.

Of course you dont want to do a body count, the body count proves my point.

Im not "blaming" anybody, Im simply sick to death of the retarded opinion that religion is to blame for most of the world's violence historically, when it is actually far from the truth as non-relgious wackos have killed waaaaay more people than religious wackos have. Wackos either way, with neither religion nor secular ideals to blame as much as the wacko themself, of crouse is the mature viewpoint but I just kinda snapped after hearing too many idiots blame everything on religion and decided to use their own idiotic logic against them.

No I don't want to do a body count because its stupid, almost no one kills in the name of atheism or agnosticism. In the past many people have been killed in the name of religion, to simply throw in other reasons like nationalism (which can be driven by religion) and stuff like that into the "godless" category is once again absurd. If you said religion wasn't the primary motivation in a lot of the wars and killings in the 20th century I would tend to agree but the problem is you say people like Stalin and Mao and they weren't killing because they didn't believe in God, they had other motivations, so why are they in the godless/atheist category? If you want to say reasons other then religion were the primary factor driving most of those wars fine, but you can't simply throw in godless/atheist/agnostic/secular and act like its all the same thing.

EDIT: Religion can be used to drive hate just like pretty much anything that can make someone else an "other". However I think if the people looked at the perverting the true meaning of the religion. I am not trying to blame religion for these things I just have a problem when stuff like what Navy Dave says where they attribute these atrocities to the people being non-religious or not of the correct religion.

[Koala]

I'm an idiot because I said that religion has caused violence throughout the years, huh? umkay.....

But what do I know, I'm just a godless idiot pacifist, who donates and volunteers at the Philly SPCA. I don't know how I went so wrong, without a big dose of religion to guide me.

I never addressed you, or anything you said. I was addressing those who say that religion has caused MOST of the violence historically. THe ones who say relgiion is the cause of MOST of the world's problems. Is that what you said? Didnt think so, so why are you getting offended?

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/07/201172316756663534.html


Norway attacks suspect admits responsibility

The man suspected of a gun and bomb attack in Norway has called his deeds atrocious yet necessary, his defence lawyer said.

"He has said that he believed the actions were atrocious, but that in his head they were necessary," defence lawyer Geir Lippestad told TV2 news on Saturday.

Lippestad said his client had said he was willing to explain himself in a court hearing on Monday. The court will decide at the hearing whether to keep the suspect in detention pending trial.

Earlier on Saturday, officials in Norway had charged a 32-year-old Norwegian man with killing at least 92 people in a gun and bomb attack described as the worst act of violence in the country since World War II.

Police confirmed to Al Jazeera on Saturday that the suspect had been named as Anders Behring Breivik.

Breivik, who confessed to firing weapons during questioning on Saturday, belonged to right-wing political groups. But officials said they are not jumping to conclusions about his motives.

Reports suggest he belonged to an anti-immigration party, wrote blogs attacking multi-culturalism and was a member of a neo-Nazi online forum.

But Norwegian authorities said Breivik, detained by police after 85 people were gunned down at a youth camp and another 7 killed in an Oslo bomb attack on Friday, was previously unknown to them and his internet activity traced so far included no calls to violence.

Beyond comprehension'

Breivik bought six tonnes of fertiliser before the massacre, a supplier said on Saturday, as police investigated witness accounts of a second shooter in the attack on Utoya.

If convicted on terrorism charges, he would face a maximum of 21 years in jail, police have said.

Norway's royal family and prime minister led the nation in mourning, visiting grieving relatives of the scores of youth gunned down at an island retreat, as the shell-shocked Nordic nation was gripped by reports that the gunman may not have acted alone.

The shooting spree began just hours after a massive explosion that ripped through an Oslo high-rise building housing the prime minister's office.

"This is beyond comprehension. It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare for those who have been killed, for their mothers and fathers, family and friends," Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg told reporters on Saturday.

Though the prime minister cautioned against jumping to conclusions about the gunman's motives, both attacks were in areas connected to the left-leaning Labour Party, which leads a coalition government.

The youth camp, about 35km northwest of Oslo, is organised by the party's youth wing, and the prime minister had been scheduled to speak there on Saturday.

'Christian fundamentalist' views

The blond-haired Behring Breivik described himself on his Facebook page as "conservative", "Christian", and interested in hunting and computer games like World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, reports say.

On his Twitter account, he posted only one message, dated July 17, in English based on a quote from British philosopher John Stuart Mill: "One person with a belief is equal to a force of 100,000 who have only interests".

The suspect was reportedly also a member of a Swedish neo-Nazi internet forum, a group monitoring far-right activity said on Saturday.

Click link for rest

[Koala]

If you said religion wasn't the primary motivation in a lot of the wars and killings in the 20th century I would tend to agree but the problem is you say people like Stalin and Mao and they weren't killing because they didn't believe in God, they had other motivations, so why are they in the godless/atheist category? If you want to say reasons other then religion were the primary factor driving most of those wars fine, but you can't simply throw in godless/atheist/agnostic/secular and act like its all the same thing.

I didnt say Stalin/etc. were killing becuase they didnt believe in God. Show me where I said that. I said, that religion was not the primary motivation of most ot wars/killings throughout history. In response to the idea that religion is the primary cause of the world's problems. I didnt intend to say that atheists/non-religious were automartically more evil simply becuase they were non-religious. I was saying, if you're gonna divide things into the category of those driven by religion and those driven by things other than religion, the latter category has cause dmuch more problems.

I put Stalin/Mao in the atheist category because they were atheists, as far as I know. I put Hitler in the non-religious category because he might have been religious but that wasnt his motivation. I put both all of them in the same category of thos not driven primarily by religion. I dunno why you are splitting hairs. Stalin was as evil as Hitler, perhaps I shouldnt have even bothered making a distinction because it is obviously confusing you. My point is Stalin./Hitler are both in the same cateogry of "not driven primarily by religion", as opposed to the category of "driven primarily by religion", and my point is that it is insane to say that religion is the cause of most of the world's problems if you choose to actually divide the world based on that paradigm. Clear now?

[Koolblue13]

I never addressed you, or anything you said. I was addressing those who say that religion has caused MOST of the violence historically. THe ones who say relgiion is the cause of MOST of the world's problems. Is that what you said? Didnt think so, so why are you getting offended?

I did and I do.

Now I'll go back into ATL and see what the guy saying that God didn't build this nation for gays to ruin it, with their sinful marriages.

[jpyaks3]

I think this attack does highlight a very real problem in Europe, the rise of the far right, as more comes out about this guys beliefs and connections to other groups like the EDL we need to start looking at how to deal with this growing problem or ultra nationalism and the far right. I fear that the media will try and explain it as one lone wacko without looking at the root of the ideology and the far right network that exists in Europe.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This guy was clearly a follower of Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, Geeret Wieders, and that whole cabal. He is the result of the hate they have tossed around the internet the last decade

[jpyaks3]

I didnt say Stalin/etc. were killing becuase they didnt believe in God. Show me where I said that. I said, that religion was not the primary motivation of most ot wars/killings throughout history. In response to the idea that religion is the primary cause of the world's problems. I didnt intend to say that atheists/non-religious were automartically more evil simply becuase they were non-religious. I was saying, if you're gonna divide things into the category of those driven by religion and those driven by things other than religion, the latter category has cause dmuch more problems.

Okay definitely agree with that statement.

[Koolblue13]

I knew it was the internets fault!

[Koala]

I did and I do.

Now I'll go back into ATL and see what the guy saying that God didn't build this nation for gays to ruin it, with their sinful marriages.

You do believe religion has caused most of the world's problems? So you have absolutely no idea of history, or no math skills. Show me all the wars/killings caused by PRIMARILY by religion, and then count all the wars/killings that were NOT caused PRIMARILY by relgion. Go ahead, Id do it for you, but you apparently need to do some basic self-education on history

[twa]

I think this attack does highlight a very real problem in Europe, the rise of the far right, as more comes out about this guys beliefs and connections to other groups like the EDL we need to start looking at how to deal with this growing problem or ultra nationalism and the far right. I fear that the media will try and explain it as one lone wacko without looking at the root of the ideology and the far right network that exists in Europe.

We and they have been looking at it for a long while,nothing new......even he recognized that in his preparations.
Controls and intrusion can of course be tightened,to the howls of persecution and abuse

[techboy]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/07/201172316756663534.html


and interested in hunting and computer games like World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2

Clearly it was the video games that did it...

[jpyaks3]

We and they have been looking at it for a long while,nothing new......even he recognized that in his preparations.
Controls and intrusion can of course be tightened,to the howls of persecution and abuse

I know that they have been keeping an eye on the problem, but I am talking more about the root of the problem. We need to do a better job of countering the voices of the Pam Gellars and Geert Wilders and groups like the EDL and BNP. Those who "other" people in societies and push ultra nationalist speech to the limits. Just like with parts of the Islamic community there needed to be efforts to bring in moderating forces the same approach should be taken with these right wing groups.

[techboy]

You do believe religion has caused most of the world's problems?

This is one of those arguments where even if you somehow manage to win, you lose. "Hooray! My group has killed slightly fewer people than that other group!"



Go ahead, Id do it for you, but you apparently need to do some basic self-education on history

Especially if you're going to be a jerk about it.

Both sides of this argument are far too simplistic.

[Destino]

A lot of people have been harmed by religious groups seeking to eliminate other beliefs and non-religious seeking to eliminate religion. In every case people of the same religious belief of the aggressive faction disown it and claim "they aren't one of us" or "they didn't do it because of that belief". You can see the hostility of the non-religious and religious politically in the US. Atheists want a secular public with no mention of religious speech arguing that it imposes in them. Meanwhile the dominant Christians want the state recognized as a "Christian nation".

All groups will have extreme and moderate members. Opposition turns to hatred and people get hurt. This is a human condition that can't be avoided. Some people will always find a cause and a subset of those will want to turn to violence to advance that cause.

The key Is understanding that hate is not something that can be controlled. You can't hate something rationally forever. It grows And spreads like a disease until it finds a host it dominates. Oppose without hate. Make sure the goal is a better tomorrow and not simply the destruction of some other idea. Reject hate or you could be the next to do something stupid and end up wondering how your life got away from you. The moment you hate someone because of an association recognize you have a problem and put that fire out.

[Koala]

This is one of those arguments where even if you somehow manage to win, you lose. "Hooray! My group has killed slightly fewer people than that other group!"



Especially if you're going to be a jerk about it.

Both sides of this argument are far too simplistic.

I dont think its that complex. The statement is that religion has caused most of the world's problems. I disagree, I dont think there is any evidence of that historically, and in fact, the evidence suggests that most of world's problems were not caused primarily by religion. Whats too simplistic about that? Granted any problem has a host of underlying factors, which religion may or may not play a role in, which is why I used the word "primarily".

[Baculus]

The events in Norway is saddening and troubling on so many levels, from the car bomb in downtown Oslo to the young people people being helpless butchered by a gunman, followed by a peaceful nation shattered by these attacks. Make no mistake about it: these acts were political in motivation.

At first, when conservatives believed Muslims were involved, they were suddenly, "A terrible blow from Islamist terrorists!" Now, when it turns out that the attacker was a European, killing young members of a leftist Labour party, their tune has changed, widly, veering from one direction to another. Some conservatives deny that Anders Breivik is even a conservative, though he outlined a conservative agenda in his manifesto. (Regarding his religion, I personally think he is probably more anti-Islamic than Christian.) Victim-blaming, either on Norway, "socialism," or even the kids themselves, usually criticizing the youngsters idealism or naivete, is another response from some on the Right. While others claim that Breivik is a fake, a plant, a Zionist agent, or any number of other conspiracies that are being produced. Most of the outlandish conservative theories, though, basically arrive at this conclusion: The Left, who are the truly hateful people, are happy this happened, of they allowed/planned for this to happen, so they can crack down on conservatives and increase leftist power.

It's particularly sickening to think that, somehow, liberals and leftists are delighted these attacks happen.

But the worst responses I have read from right-wingers are the expressions of agreement or happiness over Breivik's actions, reading comments from various websites around the web. I knew conservatives hated the Left, of course, but I didn't realize it was so deeply rooted until now.

Anders Breivik isn't simply a madman -- these were long-calculated attacks, striking at the "Marxist multiculturalists" he sees as a threat to the West. Does that language sound familiar? It should, because it mirrors the same language we hear from American right-wingers, who also attack "Marxist multiculturalism" while proclaiming the Left as the gravest threat to the West, above and beyond anything else.

What if a right-winger decides that the "Marxist multiculturalist" Peace Corp members, which have been characterized as "Obama's thugs," need to be attacked at one of their camps? We've already had attacks or planned attacks against liberals or leftists here in the U.S., but the threat of copy-cat attacks on this magnitude is a bit frightening, especially one which would follow the single largest single gunman massacre in modern history and after I've read random online comments saying that Breivik is a hero and the revolution is "coming soon."

I don't know of this division between the Left and the Right can ever be truly healed or bridged, and I really do fear that, at this rate, with a feverish belief from some conservatives that an apocalypse or clash of civilizations, ideologies is coming, this is not going to end well at all. Over and over again, for years, I've heard the Right say that the various ideologies of the Left have to be "defeated" -- well, I see the final extension of these sentiments in the attack on the Labour party and Utoeya island.

[Koala]

A lot of people have been harmed by religious groups seeking to eliminate other beliefs and non-religious seeking to eliminate religion. In every case people of the same religious belief of the aggressive faction disown it and claim "they aren't one of us" or "they didn't do it because of that belief". You can see the hostility of the non-religious and religious politically in the US. Atheists want a forced secular government with no mention of religious speech arguing that it imposes in them. Meanwhile the dominant Christians want the state recognized as a "Christian nation".

All groups will have extreme and moderate members. Opposition turns to hatred and people get hurt. This is a human condition that can't be avoided. Some people will always find a cause and a subset of those will want to turn to violence to advance that cause.

The key Is understanding that hate is not something that can be controlled. You can't hate something rationally forever. It grows And spreads like a disease until it finds a host it dominates. Oppose without hate. Make sure the goal is a better tomorrow and not simply the destruction of some other idea. Reject hate or you could be the next to do something stupid and end up wondering how your life got away from you.

I cant argue with this. Good post.

[techboy]

Whats too simplistic about that?

You accept the flawed premise that we can simply count bodies without examining underlying motivations, and give it credence by using the same method. Even if successful, it's a self-defeating exercise.

[Koolblue13]

This is one of those arguments where even if you somehow manage to win, you lose. "Hooray! My group has killed slightly fewer people than that other group!"



Especially if you're going to be a jerk about it.

Both sides of this argument are far too simplistic.

Agreed on all points. Also, I'm not going to derail this thread again and am dropping it.

[IONTOP]

You do believe religion has caused most of the world's problems? So you have absolutely no idea of history, or no math skills. Show me all the wars/killings caused by PRIMARILY by religion, and then count all the wars/killings that were NOT caused PRIMARILY by relgion. Go ahead, Id do it for you, but you apparently need to do some basic self-education on history

Here's the ones just from the Bible:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

[oisn1]

The events in Norway is saddening and troubling on so many levels, from the car bomb in downtown Oslo to the young people people being helpless butchered by a gunman, followed by a peaceful nation shattered by these attacks. Make no mistake about it: these acts were political in motivation.

At first, when conservatives believed Muslims were involved, they were suddenly, "A terrible blow from Islamist terrorists!" Now, when it turns out that the attacker was a European, killing young members of a leftist Labour party, their tune has changed, widly, veering from one direction to another. Some conservatives deny that Anders Breivik is even a conservative, though he outlined a conservative agenda in his manifesto. (Regarding his religion, I personally think he is probably more anti-Islamic than Christian.) Victim-blaming, either on Norway, "socialism," or even the kids themselves, usually criticizing the youngsters idealism or naivete, is another response from some on the Right. While others claim that Breivik is a fake, a plant, a Zionist agent, or any number of other conspiracies that are being produced. Most of the outlandish conservative theories, though, basically arrive at this conclusion: The Left, who are the truly hateful people, are happy this happened, of they allowed/planned for this to happen, so they can crack down on conservatives and increase leftist power.

It's particularly sickening to think that, somehow, liberals and leftists are delighted these attacks happen.

But the worst responses I have read from right-wingers are the expressions of agreement or happiness over Breivik's actions, reading comments from various websites around the web. I knew conservatives hated the Left, of course, but I didn't realize it was so deeply rooted until now.

Anders Breivik isn't simply a madman -- these were long-calculated attacks, striking at the "Marxist multiculturalists" he sees as a threat to the West. Does that language sound familiar? It should, because it mirrors the same language we hear from American right-wingers, who also attack "Marxist multiculturalism" while proclaiming the Left as the gravest threat to the West, above and beyond anything else.

What if a right-winger decides that the "Marxist multiculturalist" Peace Corp members, which have been characterized as "Obama's thugs," need to be attacked at one of their camps? We've already had attacks or planned attacks against liberals or leftists here in the U.S., but the threat of copy-cat attacks on this magnitude is a bit frightening, especially one which would follow the single largest single gunman massacre in modern history and after I've read random online comments saying that Breivik is a hero and the revolution is "coming soon."

I don't know of this division between the Left and the Right can ever be truly healed or bridged, and I really do fear that, at this rate, with a feverish belief from some conservatives that an apocalypse or clash of civilizations, ideologies is coming, this is not going to end well at all. Over and over again, for years, I've heard the Right say that the various ideologies of the Left have to be "defeated" -- well, I see the final extension of these sentiments in the attack on the Labour party and Utoeya island.

I definitely agree with this. If you read Free Republic, they were ready to kill all Muslims when the reports were saying he was a Muslim. But then he turns out to be a right-wing guy and all of the sudden, they started saying this was a false-flag operation and such. Now, they are saying that the kids deserved it because they were "Marxists" and let Muslims into the country. It's sickening to see people condone murder and terrorism because their "side" might have been responsible. To me, that is worse than the NavyDave defense where he tries to steer the conversation to bad things liberals have done. At least he understands that there is no excuse or justification for killing close to a hundred people.

I just want to say that your post really highlights the language that gets bandied about in the media. It's no longer about the differences between the two parties, it's about the fact that one side needs to fight to destroy the other side.

[FanboyOf91]

This guy was clearly a follower of Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, Geeret Wieders, and that whole cabal. He is the result of the hate they have tossed around the internet the last decade

And it's going to get worse.

NYT: Norway Attacks Put Spotlight on Rise of Right-Wing Sentiment in Europe (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/world/europe/24europe.html?_r=3&partner=rss&emc=rss)


A combination of increased migration from abroad and largely unrestricted movement of people within an enlarged European Union, such as the persecuted Roma minority, helped lay the groundwork for a nationalist, at times starkly chauvinist, revival.

Groups are gaining traction from Hungary to Italy, but it is particularly apparent in northern European countries that long have had liberal immigration policies. The rapid arrival of refugees, asylum seekers and economic migrants, many of them Muslims, led to a significant backlash in places like Denmark, where the Danish People’s Party has 25 out of 179 seats in Parliament, and the Netherlands, where Geert Wilders’s Party for Freedom won 15.5 percent of the vote in the 2010 general election.

Mr. Wilders famously compared the Koran, the holy book of Islam, to Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf.” Both the Danish and Dutch right-wing parties are backing precarious minority governments while not directly participating by having ministers, and inching toward mainstream acceptance in the process.

Friday’s attacks were swiftly condemned by leaders from across the political spectrum in Europe. Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel was particularly sharp in speaking out against what she called an “appalling crime.” The sort of hatred that could fuel such an action, she said, went against “freedom, respect and the belief in peaceful coexistence.”

Yet some of the primary motivations cited by the suspect in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, are now mainstream issues. Mrs. Merkel, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Prime Minister David Cameron in Britain all recently declared an end to multiculturalism. Multiculturalism “has failed, utterly failed,” Mrs. Merkel told fellow Christian Democrats last October, though stressing that immigrants were welcome in Germany.

[Koolblue13]

A lot of people have been harmed by religious groups seeking to eliminate other beliefs and non-religious seeking to eliminate religion. In every case people of the same religious belief of the aggressive faction disown it and claim "they aren't one of us" or "they didn't do it because of that belief". You can see the hostility of the non-religious and religious politically in the US. Atheists want a secular public with no mention of religious speech arguing that it imposes in them. Meanwhile the dominant Christians want the state recognized as a "Christian nation".

All groups will have extreme and moderate members. Opposition turns to hatred and people get hurt. This is a human condition that can't be avoided. Some people will always find a cause and a subset of those will want to turn to violence to advance that cause.

The key Is understanding that hate is not something that can be controlled. You can't hate something rationally forever. It grows And spreads like a disease until it finds a host it dominates. Oppose without hate. Make sure the goal is a better tomorrow and not simply the destruction of some other idea. Reject hate or you could be the next to do something stupid and end up wondering how your life got away from you. The moment you hate someone because of an association recognize you have a problem and put that fire out.

I completely agree with this post Des.

It's a shame we can't all hate violence, war, hunger, etc and put the fight against those types of things first and our religious, political, geographical leanings in a place they deserve to be, which IMO, is pretty much where sports is in the importance scale. Not very.

Although, to do that, we'd have to have a world fueled by love and not hate.

[Prosperity]

this is one of the more horrible things thats happened

[jpyaks3]

Well the Jerusalem Post seems to think the problem is immigration, and multi-culturalism, and the Muslims. Unreal, stay classy Jerusalem Post. I find it disturbing that the Post decides to use this to launch into an attack on Muslim immigration and multi-culturalism, with a yeah he didn't do it in the right way but he was right bull****.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=230788



Perhaps Brievik’s inexcusable act of vicious terror should serve not only as a warning that there may be more elements on the extreme Right willing to use violence to further their goals, but also as an opportunity to seriously reevaluate policies for immigrant integration in Norway and elsewhere
......

The challenge for Norway in particular and for Europe as a whole, where the Muslim population is expected to account for 8% of the population by 2030 according to a Pew Research Center, is to strike the right balance. Fostering an open society untainted by xenophobia or racism should go hand in hand with protection of unique European culture and values.

Europe’s fringe right-wing extremists present a real danger to society. But Oslo’s devastating tragedy should not be allowed to be manipulated by those who would cover up the abject failure of multiculturalism.

[Thiebear]

Remove him from the public eye. Remove all articles pertaining to him. Do not give him a forum to allow others to see this and copy it.
The family(extended) will never be the same, don't allow this kind of thing to make him infamous.

side note:
the Godless laugh at your assertions and point to all of history as the rebuttle.
*PEOPLE* craving power kill other people, for no other reason than for 'more'. Does the reason really matter?

[jpyaks3]

No he is saying that a significant portion of the religion not including the Terrorists is pushed to embrace an idealogy that leans left. And that part is not necessarily a bad thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_Islam

Islamic socialism is a term coined by various Muslim leaders to describe a more spiritual form of socialism. Muslim socialists believe that the teachings of the Qur'an and Muhammad are compatible with principles of equality and the redistribution of wealth.

---------- Post added July-25th-2011 at 08:18 AM ----------

The tragedy occurred in Norway yet on other sites you see the left and the Godless trying their darn best to paint USA conservatives and Christians as being a part of that loony mindset.

Could it be that they are still upset they couldn't pin the Arizona tragedy on Conservative talk radio or Fox News, earlier in the year? :rolleyes:

Or perhaps its that the far right in America uses the exact same arguments and the exact same language to describe the situation in America.

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://warincontext.org/2011/07/23/from-pamela-geller-to-anders-behring-breivik-how-islamophobia-turned-deadly/


From Pamela Geller to Anders Behring Breivik — how Islamophobia turned deadly in Norway

by Paul Woodward on July 23, 2011

The Oslo killings, however, should be seen in a different light since there is a wealth of evidence to suggest that the perpetrator of this atrocity, even if it turns out he was acting alone, was very much part of a political movement — a movement whose leading ideologues regularly appear on Fox News and have high public profiles.

Anders Behring Breivik, the 32-year-old Norwegian man widely assumed to be responsible for the mass murder that took place in Oslo yesterday, is being referred to as a Christian fundamentalist in many press reports.

His comments appearing on the political website Document.no suggest however that this is a rather misleading description. His views, as revealed there, are ideological rather than religious with his preeminent focus being his opposition to multiculturalism. (Quotations of Breivik appearing below come from a translation provided by Doug Saunders.)

In the United States, one of the most prominent public faces of the movement to which Breivik belongs is that of the notorious right-wing, pro-Israel, Islamophobic blogger, Pamela Geller, whose principal mouthpiece is Atlas Shrugs.

The poster below shows a recent event which she backed, along with Robert Spencer who operates Jihad Watch.

The World War Two iconography they employ — battleships, tanks and squadrons of bombers — makes it clear that they regard their campaign against “Islamization” as a kind of war. One of the battles in that war played out in Oslo yesterday.


Click link for rest

[Boss_Hogg]

my god the comments from the Fox News audience are disgusting

[Destino]

SHF you should have included the lovely visual:
http://warincontext.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/SIOE-SIOA.jpg
The right wing loves to use war imagery. Honest question though, how exactly does one tell the people putting the above image together and the Breivik's of the world apart BEFORE they commit an act of violence? Anders favored images from the middle ages over WWII but the concept is the same. Politics turned into a "war" that must be one as our very civilization hangs in the balance. That rhetoric is extremely violent but we always assumed they are just words. The anti-terrorist folks must be having an extremely busy day.

And lets all be honest. We assumed the terrorist was a Muslim (myself included). I always tell myself "when you think you have it figured out is when you're most likely to make a big mistake" to keep myself humble in business. That applies here because no one would have seen this guy and thought "terrorist":
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2011/07/23/1226100/411367-anders-behring-breivik-none.jpg


Let's hope his claims to being part of a group prove to be delusions

[China]

Manifesto by Norway attacks suspect includes almost verbatim passages from Unabomber’s writing (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/manifesto-by-norway-attacks-suspect-includes-almost-verbatim-passages-from-unabombers-writing/2011/07/24/gIQAGnt4WI_story.html)

DENVER — Parts of the manifesto written by the suspect in Norway’s terrorist attack were taken almost word for word from the writings of “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski.

The passages copied by Anders Behring Breivik appear in the first few pages of Kaczynski’s manifesto. Breivik changed a Kaczynski screed on leftism and what he considered to be leftists’ ”feelings of inferiority” — mainly by substituting the words “multiculturalism” or “cultural Marxism” for “leftism.”

For instance, Kaczynski wrote: “One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is leftism, so a discussion of the psychology of leftism can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of modern society in general.”

Breivik’s manifesto reads: “One of the most widespread manifestations of the craziness of our world is multiculturalism, so a discussion of the psychology of multiculturalists can serve as an introduction to the discussion of the problems of Western Europe in general.”

Breivik did not cite Kaczynski, though he did for many other people whose writings he used in his 1,500-page manifesto.

Click on the link for the full article

[twa]

http://warincontext.org/2011/07/23/from-pamela-geller-to-anders-behring-breivik-how-islamophobia-turned-deadly/




Click link for rest

Typical fearmongering and suppression of ideas

from your link
Do any of the leaders of Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) and Stop Islamization of Europe (SIOE) advocate that their “freedom fighters” should adopt violent tactics such as those employed by Breivik? Perhaps not. Indeed, I have little doubt that in the coming days we will hear many vociferous disavowals of their having any association with the Norwegian. But have no doubt, while they might have a sincere revulsion for Breivik’s actions, they cannot so easily disassociate themselves from the ideas that drove him to murder almost a hundred innocent people.

Perhaps not is a cop out

[Destino]

Typical fearmongering and suppression of ideas

from your link
Do any of the leaders of Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) and Stop Islamization of Europe (SIOE) advocate that their “freedom fighters” should adopt violent tactics such as those employed by Breivik? Perhaps not. Indeed, I have little doubt that in the coming days we will hear many vociferous disavowals of their having any association with the Norwegian. But have no doubt, while they might have a sincere revulsion for Breivik’s actions, they cannot so easily disassociate themselves from the ideas that drove him to murder almost a hundred innocent people.

Perhaps not is a cop out

We both know the truth of that matter is the people advocating violence aren't going to say so publicly unless it is legal and safe to do so. For instance a "we should bomb mecca" when "we" means the US armed forces is a legal voicing of support for mass murder and bigotry by Tancredo. You will not however see him attend a rally and say "you guys in the audience should go plant bombs in mecca". I am not saying he supports terror, but I know he isn't stupid enough to support it openly if he did. It would open him up to investigation and prison. The lunatics aren't going to tell you unless they feel reasonably safe doing so.

Having said that no groups argument should be disqualified by the action of a violent person. Environmentalism and conservation has amongst it's supporters ELF, the horribly named terrorist group. The pro life group has in it's ranks some violent murderers. Does this mean wanting clean water and babies to be born is a violent ideology? Of course not! Such an argument is completely absurd.

Having said that if pro-life groups and environmentalists are marching under violent rhetoric and imagery. They are declaring war on the opposition and saying that they have to win this war at all costs etc etc and suddenly a lunatic emerges saying the same things but adding a violent and bloodly exclamation point - you have a real problem. How do you tell them apart before they act?!

Best to avoid rhetoric that makes you look crazy. You can support lower immigration numbers without warships and references to world wars. You can oppose abortion without crosshairs and hit lists.

[SkinsHokieFan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/25debate.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all?src=tptw


Killings in Norway Spotlight Anti-Muslim Thought in U.S.

The man accused of the killing spree in Norway was deeply influenced by a small group of American bloggers and writers who have warned for years about the threat from Islam, lacing his 1,500-page manifesto with quotations from them, as well as copying multiple passages from the tract of the Unabomber.

In the document he posted online, Anders Behring Breivik, who is accused of bombing government buildings and killing scores of young people at a Labor Party camp, showed that he had closely followed the acrimonious American debate over Islam.

His manifesto, which denounced Norwegian politicians as failing to defend the country from Islamic influence, quoted Robert Spencer, who operates the Jihad Watch Web site, 64 times, and cited other Western writers who shared his view that Muslim immigrants pose a grave danger to Western culture.

More broadly, the mass killings in Norway, with their echo of the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City by an antigovernment militant, have focused new attention around the world on the subculture of anti-Muslim bloggers and right-wing activists and renewed a debate over the focus of counterterrorism efforts.

In the United States, critics have asserted that the intense spotlight on the threat from Islamic militants has unfairly vilified Muslim Americans while dangerously playing down the threat of attacks from other domestic radicals. The author of a 2009 Department of Homeland Security report on right-wing extremism withdrawn by the department after criticism from conservatives repeated on Sunday his claim that the department had tilted too heavily toward the threat from Islamic militants.

The revelations about Mr. Breivik’s American influences exploded on the blogs over the weekend, putting Mr. Spencer and other self-described “counterjihad” activists on the defensive, as their critics suggested that their portrayal of Islam as a threat to the West indirectly fostered the crimes in Norway.

Mr. Spencer wrote on his Web site, jihadwatch.org, that “the blame game” had begun, “as if killing a lot of children aids the defense against the global jihad and Islamic supremacism, or has anything remotely to do with anything we have ever advocated.” He did not mention Mr. Breivik’s voluminous quotations from his writings.

The Gates of Vienna, a blog that ordinarily keeps up a drumbeat of anti-Islamist news and commentary, closed its pages to comments Sunday “due to the unusual situation in which it has recently found itself.”

Its operator, who describes himself as a Virginia consultant and uses the pseudonym “Baron Bodissey,” wrote on the site Sunday that “at no time has any part of the Counterjihad advocated violence.”

The name of that Web site — a reference to the siege of Vienna in 1683 by Muslim fighters who, the blog says in its headnote, “seemed poised to overrun Christian Europe” — was echoed in the title Mr. Breivik chose for his manifesto: “2083: A European Declaration of Independence.” He chose that year, the 400th anniversary of the siege, as the target for the triumph of Christian forces in the European civil war he called for to drive out Islamic influence.


Click link for rest

[Dan T.]

Manifesto by Norway attacks suspect includes almost verbatim passages from Unabomber’s writing

DENVER — Parts of the manifesto written by the suspect in Norway’s terrorist attack were taken almost word for word from the writings of “Unabomber” Ted Kaczynski.

The passages copied by Anders Behring Breivik appear in the first few pages of Kaczynski’s manifesto. Breivik changed a Kaczynski screed on leftism and what he considered to be leftists’ ”feelings of inferiority” — mainly by substituting the words “multiculturalism” or “cultural Marxism” for “leftism.”



So not only is he a mass murderer, he's plagarist too.

[Thiebear]

Some of you can't pass up even a tragedy to bash your political rivals.. simply amazing.

[Baculus]

No he is saying that a significant portion of the religion not including the Terrorists is pushed to embrace an idealogy that leans left. And that part is not necessarily a bad thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_and_Islam
.

So what's your point, ND? A bunch of youngsters are murdered in a secular, Western social democracy, and you try to equate it with "Islamic socialism"? What's your point?

BTW, I hear plenty of Islamic conservative thought (and that is what Islamists are -- conservatives), which mirror phislophies supported by the American Right, especially socially conservative philosophies, And both Islamic and American conservatives are anti-liberal, too.

BTW, social justice, i.e., "redistribution of wealth," is a also a tenement of many Christian sects, too.


[/COLOR]The tragedy occurred in Norway yet on other sites you see the left and the Godless trying their darn best to paint USA conservatives and Christians as being a part of that loony mindset.

First of all, American conservatives are constantly trying to portray all liberals and leftists as anti-Americans, or terrorists sympathizers -- this would include YOU, too. Secondly, the Norwegian shooter has views that EXACTLY mirror American conservative thought, especially since he is a self-declared conservative, influenced by American conservatives. But no, that ain't good enough: You have to deflect blame from your ideology, anything to shift blame onto the belief system of the murdered youths instead of the killer and the views which drove his actions.


Could it be that they are still upset they couldn't pin the Arizona tragedy on Conservative talk radio or Fox News, earlier in the year? :rolleyes:

What a hypocritical remark. Right-wingers CONSTANTLY blame liberals for all the world's woes, writing entire books on it, from Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism, Glenn Beck's Arguing with Idiots, to Ann Coulter's various books, where liberals, against are blamed for society's ills. And daily, on talk radio and Fox News, liberals and the left, again, are heaped with blame. But, on my goodness, let the media suggest that an anti-government radical may have right-leaning views, and "Oh my gosh, we're under attack by the Left!"

Every problem on Earth, according to the Right, can be blamed on liberals, and that is why they must be defeated. You, yourself, espouse this view. The Norwegian shooter took your own philosophies to the next logical conclusion, and least to him -- kill liberals, kill leftists. Kill the traitors and the root cause of the world's ills.

Conservatives are thin-skinned: They can trash other people on a daily basis, but they're unable to deal with counter-criticism, especially after one of their number butchers some young people due to ideology.

No ideology is immune from criticism, because no ideology is perfect. Why? Because its practitioners, human beings, are flawed as it is.

[deejaydana]

Some of you can't pass up even a tragedy to bash your political rivals.. simply amazing.

Isn't that the truth. No specific party, religion or race has a primary stake in having a very few crazy, (potentially suicidal) people within their ranks. It's too bad we so quickly use the actions of a single person to be representative of the group in its entirety.

[Sticksboi05]

Some of you can't pass up even a tragedy to bash your political rivals.. simply amazing.

I know, it's pathetic.

[Bang]

Nevermind his politics are central to his motive.

I think it's a valid discussion. Whether any one party has a trademark on crazies is not the point. This one killed almost 100 people a couple days ago. And he's the story here.

So long as no one ever takes responsibility for their crazies, well, it enables the crazy to be crazy.

~Bang

[deejaydana]

Nevermind his politics are central to the story.

I think it's a valid discussion. Whether any one party has a trademark on crazies is not the point. This one killed almost 100 people a couple days ago. And he's the story here.

So long as no one ever takes responsibility for their crazies, well, it enables the crazy to be crazy.

~Bang


I think you mighta missed the point of my post.

[Bang]

I think you mighta missed the point of my post.

No, i get it.
But lets face it,, even though I know you and anyone else on here really can't do much to affect the overall (now global) discourse.. we can at least call a spade a spade.
This guy did this and has proudly mentioned his reasoning and influences.
Whether he's crazy or not.. there's almost 100 dead people.. as i said after the Arizona shooting,, the rhetoric is TOO high.. and all that seems to happen is one side gets it's back up and says "Well, what about THEIR side huff huff harumphharumph!"..
Just take responsibility for it. Everyone. Stop enabling the people who write the stuff that is stirring up the crazies to act with no social conscience.
I've always felt that an artist has a responsibility to their audience.
and unless causing mayhem and things that can literally be construed as acts of idiological war is what they're after, then it's their responsibility to have to examine how it got to this point, and what possible responsibility they may bear.
To continually just pass it off as just crazies being crazy.. there are roots to it, and we are simply denying it.

i have no problem with ideologies arguing or being polarized,, but the venom and vitriol in which the divide is being fostered has led to these things, and I think one would have to be truly ignorant to not come to that conclusion. Media affects people, and media is VERY persuasive and VERY pervasive. It's everywhere. And I believe it is being used without very little responsibility towards anyone.


~Bang

[Prosperity]

well, I guess now that it turns out the guy wasn't a muslim we can't talk about political motivations. At least these racist spit ****s are more of a European cancer, thankfully American society is a little bit more open and civilized.

The only take away I have from **** like this is that evil attacks from all directions and without mercy.

[oisn1]

Some of you can't pass up even a tragedy to bash your political rivals.. simply amazing.

Honestly speaking I haven't really seen any of that in this thread. Most people are commenting on the fact that he is espousing an extreme right-wing view that is popular among the fringe of the US. He seems to follow the teachings and beliefs of people like the Unabomber and Pam Geller. In fact I tend to agree that sites like Jihad Watch and all the other islamophobic sites helped lead him towards these actions. They breed hate and fear of scary Muslims who are trying to turn Europe and the US into some Islamic caliphate. He also was part of the English Defense League which is essentially a thinly veiled Aryan movement in Britain. Hell, the EDL vandalized a mosque in "retaliation" for this man's killings. Free Republic is trying to justify his actions, because kids had the audacity to be liberal and support Palestine, but they are idiots. So if you consider yourself a part of those groups, then yeah we're bashing you.

I haven't seen anything about how this is the fault of all conservatives. Outside of the usual NavyDave idiocy and some religion trolling, I don't see anybody making any blanket statements. Even in the general public discourse, I don't see it. In fact, I'd say that the media has been very quick to distance itself from blaming all conservatives, unlike when a Islam story comes up and we get the usual "nuke them all from orbit" refrain.

[Jumbo]

Isn't that the truth. No specific party, religion or race has a primary stake in having a very few crazy, (potentially suicidal) people within their ranks. It's too bad we so quickly use the actions of a single person to be representative of the group in its entirety.

Worth repeating. I'll add it is very helpful to society at large when members of any group rightfully or wrongly held attached to such individuals' actions make clear, strongly expressed, public repudiation of such thinking, let alone such heinous deeds.

[jpyaks3]

This is what is really disturbing, people like Bawer using this attack as a platform to attack Muslim immigrants and Muslims in general.

http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576465801154130960.html?m g=reno-secaucus-wsj

During the hours when I thought that Oslo had been attacked by jihadists, I wept for the city that has been my home for many years. And I hoped Norwegian leaders would respond to this act of violence by taking a more responsible approach to the problems they face in connection with Islam. When it emerged that these acts of terror were the work of a native Norwegian who thought he was striking a blow against jihadism and its enablers, it was immediately clear to me that his violence will deal a heavy blow to an urgent cause.

Norway, like the rest of Europe, is in serious trouble. Millions of European Muslims live in rigidly patriarchal families in rapidly growing enclaves where women are second-class citizens, and where non-Muslims dare not venture. Surveys show that an unsettling percentage of Muslims in Europe reject Western values, despise the countries they live in, support the execution of homosexuals, and want to replace democracy with Shariah law. (According to a poll conducted by the Telegraph, 40% of British Muslims want Shariah implemented in predominantly Muslim parts of the United Kingdom.)

Muslim gay-bashing is driving gays out of Amsterdam. Muslim Jew-bashing is driving Jews out of Gothenburg, Sweden. And let's not forget about the shameful trials of politician Geert Wilders in the Netherlands and historian Lars Hedegaard in Denmark, which demonstrate how the fear of Muslim wrath is squelching the freedom of speech of those who dare to criticize Islam.

There is reason to be deeply concerned about all these things, and to want to see them addressed forcefully by government leaders who care about the preservation of individual liberty and human rights. But this cause has been seriously damaged by Anders Behring Breivik.

In Norway, to speak negatively about any aspect of the Muslim faith has always been a touchy matter, inviting charges of "Islamophobia" and racism. It will, I fear, be a great deal more difficult to broach these issues now that this murderous madman has become the poster boy for the criticism of Islam.

Mr. Bawer is a literary critic who lives in Oslo. He is the author, most recently, of "Surrender: Appeasing Islam, Sacrificing Freedom" (Doubleday, 2009).

[Predicto]

This is what is really disturbing, people like Bawer using this attack as a platform to attack Muslim immigrants and Muslims in general.

http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576465801154130960.html?m g=reno-secaucus-wsj

During the hours when I thought that Oslo had been attacked by jihadists, I wept for the city that has been my home for many years. And I hoped Norwegian leaders would respond to this act of violence by taking a more responsible approach to the problems they face in connection with Islam. When it emerged that these acts of terror were the work of a native Norwegian who thought he was striking a blow against jihadism and its enablers, it was immediately clear to me that his violence will deal a heavy blow to an urgent cause.

).


This is a truly disgusting thing to write.

Translation: "When I thought that evil Muslims did this deed, I wept, knowing that Islam is violent and must be stomped out.

When it turned out to be done by a conservative who reads my writing and thinks just like me, I was even sadder, because people now will unfairly think that conservatives can be violent, and will lose track of the truth that Islam is violent and must be stomped out."

[Koala]

This is what is really disturbing, people like Bawer using this attack as a platform to attack Muslim immigrants and Muslims in general.

http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576465801154130960.html?m g=reno-secaucus-wsj

During the hours when I thought that Oslo had been attacked by jihadists, I wept for the city that has been my home for many years. And I hoped Norwegian leaders would respond to this act of violence by taking a more responsible approach to the problems they face in connection with Islam. When it emerged that these acts of terror were the work of a native Norwegian who thought he was striking a blow against jihadism and its enablers, it was immediately clear to me that his violence will deal a heavy blow to an urgent cause.

Norway, like the rest of Europe, is in serious trouble. Millions of European Muslims live in rigidly patriarchal families in rapidly growing enclaves where women are second-class citizens, and where non-Muslims dare not venture. Surveys show that an unsettling percentage of Muslims in Europe reject Western values, despise the countries they live in, support the execution of homosexuals, and want to replace democracy with Shariah law. (According to a poll conducted by the Telegraph, 40% of British Muslims want Shariah implemented in predominantly Muslim parts of the United Kingdom.)

Muslim gay-bashing is driving gays out of Amsterdam. Muslim Jew-bashing is driving Jews out of Gothenburg, Sweden. And let's not forget about the shameful trials of politician Geert Wilders in the Netherlands and historian Lars Hedegaard in Denmark, which demonstrate how the fear of Muslim wrath is squelching the freedom of speech of those who dare to criticize Islam.

There is reason to be deeply concerned about all these things, and to want to see them addressed forcefully by government leaders who care about the preservation of individual liberty and human rights. But this cause has been seriously damaged by Anders Behring Breivik.

In Norway, to speak negatively about any aspect of the Muslim faith has always been a touchy matter, inviting charges of "Islamophobia" and racism. It will, I fear, be a great deal more difficult to broach these issues now that this murderous madman has become the poster boy for the criticism of Islam.

Mr. Bawer is a literary critic who lives in Oslo. He is the author, most recently, of "Surrender: Appeasing Islam, Sacrificing Freedom" (Doubleday, 2009).

The title of that article should be, "I agree with the terrorist".