You say it now, but you're a liar.

[rockfan7224]

People can't handle the truth man. The funny thing about all this tanking talk is people think like, we're going to intentionally lose games. We wont have to try and lose a lot of games this year, it's going to happen naturally anyway.

I'm thinking this is a 4-6 win team, top end. I don't think that'll be good enough for #1 overall though.

I can definitely handle the truth. The problem is when people on the tanking side of the fence actually cheer for failure. I can respect different opinions, to to essentially root for the team to lose and fail seems a little off to me.

And that is exactly what it is, to say "I'd be disappointed if we won more than 6 games" is hoping the team loses. I on the other hand want to see the team fight in every game (which we were competitive in 14 out of 16 of last years), and if we end up with a winning record, fantastic, it shows the pieces we added this offseason geled and came along quite well and if we end up with a 4-12 record, oh well, we'll just have a higher draft pick. But no matter how hard I try I just can't *fathom* that some people are looking for the team to lose.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Not if we're drafting as low as that Mass man. Then your taking flyers, even in the lower first. There is some real top quality potential, but they'll be gone real early. And to trade up to a top 5 spot for even a chance of a Luck of Jones would take way too much ammo realistically given we still have a lot of holes to address going forward.

Hail.

[SpacePenguin]

heres a question for ya, what team is worse off at QB than we are with rex grossman/john beck?

Hehe, on paper, less than a handful. In this scheme, probably a few more.

Of course, many fans would argue that Rex Grossman looked at least average in the 3 games he started last year, which is better than McNabb past week 3, when he lost his legs, as he does every year.

But like I said, if you think getting average QB play out of Beck/Grossman is more far fetched than tanking a season, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The crowd that's convinced McNabb would be a better option than what we have is not going to be convinced otherwise. Not until the season starts, at least.

[NattyBo]

I'm not looking for the team to lose, I just see it as inevitable. I'm also foresighted enough to see that if we're playing pretty poorly like 4 games into the season, I'd probably be ok with losing out or only winning 1 or 2 more to secure us a franchise QB, something that I have yet to see in my ~20 years of actually being able to remember Redskins games, and which is generally accepted to be necessary to become an elite franchise. I'd take a season of 4-12 or sub that rather than another 8-8 mediocrity if it meant we were going to have a much better chance at making the playoffs for years to come.

[The Tris]

this was one of the richer QB classes in recent drafts (and a class where lots of QB gurus took quarterbacks)

Please list who you consider to be QB gurus in the NFL.

Then please list which of them took QBs.

[Long-Time-Fan]

That frustration will grow more profound with each loss and you'll invent new names for Daniel Snyder and roar in hatred of Haslett,

I think 6-10 but I hope for much much better.
I hope for Beck to be our Franchise QB for years to come.

BUT

Let it be known that my sig has been this was since Hasslett was hired.

[stevemcqueen1]

That's silly. Of course he knows the jist of what's available next year. College scouting is a year long business. Sure, he hasn't put in hours of tape, but he knows what's out there.

I guarantee you Shanahan has never watched coaches tape of Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, or Landry Jones. I'd be willing to bet lots of money on this.

You know why? College coaches don't give their tapes to scouts to watch sophomores and NFL scouts make it a point to never openly scout underclassmen until it becomes clear they'll declare, much less scouting sophomores. And NFL coaches aren't going to watch film of 2013 prospects two years in advance. Shanahan works hard enough just watching film of the guys in the 2011 class up until the day of the draft.

So what does Shanahan have to go on to decide he's fine with going into the season with QBs he has no faith in? ESPN hype? Yeah right. Shanahan is working to make progress each season.

[NLC1054]

How about being less concerned with getting a quarterback, and being more concerned with getting the RIGHT quarterback?

JUST drafting a quarterback isn't good enough, because when you just draft a guy to draft a guy...well, you end up in the situation the Panthers are in. Drafting a quarterback isn't good enough. We have to be patient enough to wait for the right quarterback, otherwise five years down the line we're all sitting here bitching about how Andrew Luck is a bust and how we need to only win four games so we can draft the next quarterback of the moment.

That's the reason we passed on every quarterback this year.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

How about being less concerned with getting a quarterback, and being more concerned with getting the RIGHT quarterback?

JUST drafting a quarterback isn't good enough, because when you just draft a guy to draft a guy...well, you end up in the situation the Panthers are in. Drafting a quarterback isn't good enough. We have to be patient enough to wait for the right quarterback, otherwise five years down the line we're all sitting here bitching about how Andrew Luck is a bust and how we need to only win four games so we can draft the next quarterback of the moment.

That's the reason we passed on every quarterback this year.

Why have you seemingly convinced yourself Luck is going to be a bust man? Out of curiosity.

Hail.

[SpacePenguin]

Why have you seemingly convinced yourself Luck is going to be a bust man? Out of curiosity.

Hail.

Not that it makes your question any less relevant, but no one asks why when posters assume Luck is going to be a HOF NFL QB.

[GibbsFactor]

I guarantee you Shanahan has never watched coaches tape of Andrew Luck, Matt Barkley, or Landry Jones. I'd be willing to bet lots of money on this.

You know why? College coaches don't give their tapes to scouts to watch sophomores and NFL scouts make it a point to never openly scout underclassmen until it becomes clear they'll declare, much less scouting sophomores. And NFL coaches aren't going to watch film of 2013 prospects two years in advance. Shanahan works hard enough just watching film of the guys in the 2011 class up until the day of the draft.

So what does Shanahan have to go on to decide he's fine with going into the season with QBs he has no faith in? ESPN hype? Yeah right. Shanahan is working to make progress each season.

That's untrue. Scouts get that stuff at Pro Days the year before. And Shannahan is actively looking for a QB. That means he knows the deal with those three.

[The Tris]

no one asks why when posters assume Luck is going to be a HOF NFL QB.

Lulz - who has ever said anything close to that?

[GibbsFactor]

Not that it makes your question any less relevant, but no one asks why when posters assume Luck is going to be a HOF NFL QB.

Because the entire sporting world says so? He's like King James coming out. Best prospect since.... before Manning.

Sam Bradford is up there with Luck but Sam had the shoulder concerns. No such concern with this one.

[SpacePenguin]

Because the entire sporting world says so? He's like King James coming out. Best prospect since.... before Manning.

Sam Bradford is up there with Luck but Sam had the shoulder concerns. No such concern with this one.

Yeah, the same sporting world that hyped Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Vince Young. NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

[GibbsFactor]

Yeah, the same sporting world that hyped Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Vince Young. NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

Actually no. None of them were hyped like this.

[SpacePenguin]

Lulz - who has ever said anything close to that?

Maybe no one has, but otherwise, why would a team tank an entire season for him. They obviously think he's going to be special.

Maybe I misunderstood the Lucksters, and this whole thing makes even less sense than I thought.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 04:28 PM ----------


Actually no. None of them were hyped like this.

Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Not a fan of hype.

[GibbsFactor]

Maybe no one has, but otherwise, why would a team tank an entire season for him. They obviously think he's going to be special.

Maybe I misunderstood the Lucksters, and this whole thing makes even less sense than I thought.

What is the benefit of finishing 7-9? If you have a chance to get something WE ALL have wanted since the damn late 60s, why would you not try your hardest to get it? What does 7-9 get us? What does 8-8 get us? You have to be disciplined.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Yeah, the same sporting world that hyped Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, and Vince Young. NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

No question, The draft is a total crap shoot, no matter what position you draft and at what place. Who knows how a guy will transition from the totally different Worlds of the college to the pro game?

But when a guy's as good a college player as Luck, and has all the intangibles you could ever wish to have in a QB, I'd rather be in with a chance of gambling on that potential than not. As much as he could be a bust, he could equally be 'the' man. If you don't buy a ticket and all that .....

Oh, and for the record, as great as I think Luck will be, I really covet the Sooner Jones. But ya' know ......

Hail.

[BigMike619]

my gosh, from the talks of it you would think Andrew Luck changed water in to wine. Does he get his own cult thread on here like Colt did?

[SpacePenguin]

What is the benefit of finishing 7-9? If you have a chance to get something WE ALL have wanted since the damn late 60s, why would you not try your hardest to get it? What does 7-9 get us? What does 8-8 get us? You have to be disciplined.

What do you get for anything but winning the SuperBowl? Why win 9 or 10 games and make the playoffs unless you're sure it's your year?

Because it's football, and there are no guarantees. You fight your guts out for every win you can, if you don't, Shanny will cut you, that's what discipline is.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 04:35 PM ----------


No question, The draft is a total crap shoot, no matter what position you draft and at what place. Who knows how a guy will transition from the totally different Worlds of the college to the pro game?

But when a guy's as good a college player as Luck, and has all the intangibles you could ever wish to have in a QB, I'd rather be in with a chance of gambling on that potential than not. As much as he could be a bust, he could equally be 'the' man. If you don't buy a ticket and all that .....

Oh, and for the record, as great as I think Luck will be, I really covet the Sooner Jones. But ya' know ......

Hail.

Good post. I don't have anything against drafting a QB next year, it's the losing games to do so that bothers me. It goes against everything that competitive sports represents.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

As I see him lurking, a related question to our friendly Giant, BBJ.

Joe, would you rather of Fassel won more games in '03 than the 4 he did on a poor Giants squad, and missed out on Eli, than be sitting here now with your franchise QB?

Hail.

[onedrop]

As I see him lurking, a related question to our friendly Giant, BBJ.

Joe, would you rather of Fassel won more games in '03 than the 4 he did on a poor Giants squad, and missed out on Eli, than be sitting here now with your franchise QB?

Hail.

the giants didnt come by eli all fair and square style.

[The Tris]

NFL QB is hit or miss, and no one knows for sure until its hindsight.

QB prospects are all about translatable attributes - the more they have, the higher probability of success.

No prospect is guaranteed (a cliche that is in the same category of obviousness as there's no "i" in team), but the more attributes a prospect has, the higher the probability of success.

You want to draft a QB that has the highest probability of success - Andrew Luck probably has the most NFL ready attributes since Peyton Manning and thus the highest probability of success since Manning as well.

This doesn't alone guarantee success (many external variables, as well as intangibles that are not easily identifiable play a part), but it does mean that the likelihood that he will succeed is greater than any other QB in a decade, all other factors (team, injury luck, coaching, etc) being equal.

That is why there is hype about Luck.

Of course, he is part of a very talented class of QBs himself, and is far from the only QB with a higher than average probability for success. He's not the only answer, but he is a very, very good one.

[NLC1054]

Why have you seemingly convinced yourself Luck is going to be a bust man? Out of curiosity.

Hail.

I was just using Luck as an example. The same could be said of Landry Jones, Barkley, Foles, Cousins, et. al.

I haven't convinced myself that he's going to be a bust. He could very well be a productive and capable quarterback. I just don't believe the hype that he's going to be some savior of the franchise. Not just ours, but EVERYONE'S. The Redskins aren't the only team with an active group of fans with a Suck for Luck campaign.

He hasn't played the season yet. His head coach is gone. I don't think that, playing in the Pac-10, he's playing against the best talent all the time. Just from a weird "I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about" prospective, I don't like the way the ball comes out of his hand; it wobbles a lot. I don't like his accuracy on the deep stuff. He throws some baffling interceptions. He's got the physical skill set and the intangibles, he's got the mobility, but there's something about him that gives me pause, the least of which is the amount of people ready to crown him the next Peyton Manning.

Alls I'm saying is, let him play first. Before he's crowned worthy of first overall pick status, and before people open advocate that we should lose lots of games to get him, I'd like to see him play and continue to improve. I could be completely wrong, and I'll gladly eat my words. But it's been irksome to hear fans talk about how we need to end up with a top 5 draft pick to get him, and if we don't end up in the top 5 we should trade up to get him, or to hear national media and bloggers talk about how we're tanking to get him.

To that end, I'm not wild on Landry Jones or Matt Barkley either. About the only quarterback a like is Kirk Cousins, who's looking like a second or third rounder. Maybe I'm just crap at evaluating guys, but I think mostly, I'm just trying to sit and watch a lot of college football and make my decisions based on 2011.

If ya wanna crown him, crown him, but I'd rather not, and hearing his name a zillion times a day has fatigued me towards him.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

the giants didnt come by eli all fair and square style.

True, but I doubt San Diego would of entertained that trade if they were a lot lower down the list.

Just curious as to another perspective, but he's gone so it's irrelevant, lol.

Hail.

[onedrop]

True, but I doubt San Diego would of entertained that trade if they were a lot lower down the list.

Just curious as to another perspective, but he's gone so it's irrelevant, lol.

Hail.

i understand your point and perspective. the whole eli thing still bothers the hell out of me. just like when elway pulled his "ill just go play baseball" BS.

[s0crates]

I am so tired of this nonsense.

I have grown to hate Andrew Luck, and tanks too.

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/1750171/480/Motivational-Pictures/Anti-Tank-Dogs.jpg?v0

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

i understand your point and perspective. the whole eli thing still bothers the hell out of me. just like when elway pulled his "ill just go play baseball" BS.

Oh, Manning, and his father who the media love, were complete jack ass's at the time to engineer their own move. Couldn't agree more with you. And I actually don't rate Eli as a top echelon QB. He's very good on his day, but his consistency leaves a lot to be desired.

But the Giants have him as their franchise QB for the long haul, so there ya' go.

And thank you NLC1054. I personally think your selling Luck way short, but I appreciate where your coming from on him.

Hail.

[SpacePenguin]

QB prospects are all about translatable attributes - the more they have, the higher probability of success.

No prospect is guaranteed (a cliche that is in the same category of obviousness as there's no "i" in team), but the more attributes a prospect has, the higher the probability of success.

You want to draft a QB that has the highest probability of success - Andrew Luck probably has the most NFL ready attributes since Peyton Manning and thus the highest probability of success since Manning as well.

This doesn't alone guarantee success (many external variables, as well as intangibles that are not easily identifiable play a part), but it does mean that the likelihood that he will succeed is greater than any other QB in a decade, all other factors (team, injury luck, coaching, etc) being equal.

That is why there is hype about Luck.

Of course, he is part of a very talented class of QBs himself, and is far from the only QB with a higher than average probability for success. He's not the only answer, but he is a very, very good one.

As usual, I agree with your entire post. Luck seems to be the consensus franchise QB at this point, but as you said it's supposedly a strong QB class.

If they're drafting a QB, of course I'd rather have the best prospect available. Just not at the cost of a wasted year.

Now some people will counter this saying that Grossman/Beck at QB is already a wasted year. In that case, why even play the games? If the mainstream perception is all that matters, then NFL seasons may as well be simmed through a computer program, using the consensus perception of player talent. In reality, players fade in and out of the media's hype sphere every year. Beck or Grossman would not be the first to succeed despite lacking positive name recognition.

I think a lot of Lucksters would rather win 2 games and draft Luck, than win 9 with Beck/Grossman and lose in the wildcard. This is contrary to the nature of sport, and it's this idea I'm against, not getting a good QB prospect next year.

[onedrop]

Oh, Manning, and his father who the media love, were complete jack ass's at the time to engineer their own move. Couldn't agree more with you. And I actually don't rate Eli as a top echelon QB. He's very good on his day, but his consistency leaves a lot to be desired.

But the Giants have him as their franchise QB for the long haul, so there ya' go.

And thank you NLC1054. I personally think your selling Luck way short, but I appreciate where your coming from on him.

Hail.

heres to the Skins D punishing eli opening day, all day. :cheers:

[NLC1054]

Oh, Manning, and his father who the media love, were complete jack ass's at the time to engineer their own move. Couldn't agree more with you. And I actually don't rate Eli as a top echelon QB. He's very good on his day, but his consistency leaves a lot to be desired.

But the Giants have him as their franchise QB for the long haul, so there ya' go.

And thank you NLC1054. I personally think your selling Luck way short, but I appreciate where your coming from on him.

Hail.

To that end, I get where the guys who want Luck are coming from. It's hard when you haven't had a franchise quarterback since the 1980's, and when your options are Rex and Beck, to not want what you see as the biggest and brightest. But history has proven that you don't need to have a top 5 pick to get your franchise quarterback. Theoretically it should help your odds, but again...Alex Smith and Jason Campbell went before Aaron Rodgers. McNabb went after Tim Couch and Akili Smith. You don't need to lose to get your guy.

Heck, I think part of the reason Andrew Luck went back to school was because he didn't want to play for the Panthers, and he knew the Panthers were going to take him.

I think your best bet is always to put a young quarterback in a situation where he can come in and have some success early. We still have some work to do to get to that point..

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

my gosh, from the talks of it you would think Andrew Luck changed water in to wine. Does he get his own cult thread on here like Colt did?

not a cult at all man, he just happens to be the best current NFL QB prospect, and i want my hometown team to have the best current NFL prospect. why is that so nuts?

[The Tris]

If they're drafting a QB, of course I'd rather have the best prospect available. Just not at the cost of a wasted year.

It depends on your definition of a wasted year.

For me, as we mostly ignored win now moves, and the signing of aging veterans, I hope we are highly competitive and are in every game we play.

This will help us identify what areas of the team are improved/improving, and which areas still need work. Part of developing a franchise QB is ensuring a stable environment with solid support systems (players and coaches). The more questions we answer with long term solutions this year, the better environment we will be able to create for a QB to develop in.

This is vastly different that winning with a core of veterans and highly paid free agents on the down side of their career.

The goal of this season should not be to simply win, but to win with youth. Winning with players who won't be here in 2-3 years is pointless.

And if we happen to lose a game simply because the other team was better (which will happen) or because we didn't get a few bounces (which will also happen) - so what. We aren't jockeying for a playoff seed here. As long as we are seeing meaningful, competent reps from our young players, I could care less what the final score was, if we are competitive with youth.



One thing is clear to me - there is a very slim likelihood we are getting Andrew Luck, which is bittersweet. We are an improved team, and should be competent and professional at the very least. Despite the casual fan's mockery of our QB position (who's value is vastly overrated by the same casual fan), we are not a horrible constructed team. We have holes and questions and will suffer an adjustment period and growing pains. But if we get league average play out of the QB position, we're going to be around a .500 team. Again, a bittersweet outcome to this season.

The important thing, though, is that for the first time since I can remember, the team building strategy is in line with the team itself, and if we continue to build heavily through the draft, and prudently through FA, the QB position will work itself out. Even when we don't get Andrew Luck.

But goddamn it would be nice if we did.

[BigMike619]

not a cult at all man, he just happens to be the best current NFL QB prospect, and i want my hometown team to have the best current NFL prospect. why is that so nuts?

well, im not saying its nuts but you can never tell how a kid is going to translate from college to the pros. everyone is acting like he is a sure thing and you just never can tell. he could be the next ryan leaf for all we know.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

well, im not saying its nuts but you can never tell how a kid is going to translate from college to the pros. everyone is acting like he is a sure thing and you just never can tell. he could be the next ryan leaf for all we know.

and he could be joe montana, who knows. the point is:

A. we need a QB
B. we will most likely be bad this season giving us a very high draft pick
C. hes the most touted prospect in god knows how long
D. its always a gamble, and if were hitching our wagon to a rookie, i think its best to stick with him

[SpacePenguin]

It depends on your definition of a wasted year.

For me, as we mostly ignored win now moves, and the signing of aging veterans, I hope we are highly competitive and are in every game we play.

This will help us identify what areas of the team are improved/improving, and which areas still need work. Part of developing a franchise QB is ensuring a stable environment with solid support systems (players and coaches). The more questions we answer with long term solutions this year, the better environment we will be able to create for a QB to develop in.

This is vastly different that winning with a core of veterans and highly paid free agents on the down side of their career.

The goal of this season should not be to simply win, but to win with youth. Winning with players who won't be here in 2-3 years is pointless.


Nice post, I agree with this part especially. I like the more long-term approach to FA this season, with a few exceptions. The team is younger and has better depth, which were the biggest problems with the roster.

My definition of a wasted year would be either bringing in big name veterans in mass, or tanking intentionally. This roster actually gives me some hope, not to simply win 7-9 games yearly, but to become a yearly superbowl contender over a longer timeframe, like the Patriots or Steelers of the last decade.

I also agree about the importance of QB being overstated in general. Teams that are built well can win games with pretty much any servicable QB that fits the system. See Matt Cassell.

I actually like everything this offseason, aside from the OL. I guess Shanny's counting on continuity there. Can't fill every need either way.

[Big Will]

It seems like for the past 10 or so years some Skins fans enjoy the draft and the off-season more than the actual season. It's understandable given how God awful we have been.

But, the season is about to start and people are actually talking and giving a hoot about next years draft? Draft boards will change throughout the season as some players play well as expected and some don't. Some college players will get injured. And some top prospects actually suck in the NFL. That is the flaw in the "tanking the season" philosophy.

I really can't wait for a day when this organization is at the tops again. When rooks have to fight to earn a spot on the team and the fans are actually looking forward to the season rather than the draft. We used to believe in winning and I'm glad I got to see and live it in the 80's. I can't blame anybody for the negative attitude given recent history, I just don't want to drink a beer or watch a game with you.

[NLC1054]

and he could be joe montana, who knows. the point is:

A. we need a QB
B. we will most likely be bad this season giving us a very high draft pick
C. hes the most touted prospect in god knows how long
D. its always a gamble, and if were hitching our wagon to a rookie, i think its best to stick with him

Andrew Luck is highly touted now. Like Jake Locker was highly touted before him.

Locker had a bad season and people starting grading him as a third rounder.

The thing about it is, no one really starts to break down film on a quarterback until he declares. They turned the tape on with Jake Locker, and they find all sorts of holes in his game. From a tangibles standpoint, Luck is highly touted, but we won't know how people really feel about him until next season, when evaluators and scouts turn on the film and really study him.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Give it time Will man.

If Shanahan and Allen stick to this plan, as I fully believe they will, 2 or 3 years down the line we'll all be able to hoist a beer together in acknowledgement of totally having our Redskins back.

Just gota' ride out a few more tough years to get back to where we so crave to be,

Hail.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Andrew Luck is highly touted now. Like Jake Locker was highly touted before him.

Locker had a bad season and people starting grading him as a third rounder.

The thing about it is, no one really starts to break down film on a quarterback until he declares. They turned the tape on with Jake Locker, and they find all sorts of holes in his game. From a tangibles standpoint, Luck is highly touted, but we won't know how people really feel about him until next season, when evaluators and scouts turn on the film and really study him.


graded as a 3rd rounder by espn, and he went 8th overall lol.

i would have been happy as a pig in **** with locker, i liked him a lot and wasnt super worried about his accuracy issues, but the titans screwed that for us.

point is, luck isnt gonna slip, just like bradford didnt slip. guys dont just forget how to play QB, and the only thing luck can have go wrong is a career threatening injury.

[Oldfan]

While I believe that delayed gratification is a trait that most Americans no longer have, I have to disagree with you completely. It's primarily a semantic argument, but I feel as thought it still valid. Whether the Redskins lose in the first round of the playoffs or go 2-14, it doesn't determine our chance of winning in the future with any certainty.

Since NFL rules on the draft order reward failure, you are wrong. The odds of hitting on a good QB are increased. Is it certain we will hit? No, but a sound strategy is only expected to give you a better chance.



There is no such thing as delayed gratification in the NFL; you always play for this season, because as in life, you are only guaranteed this season (and sometimes not even that). If Mike Shanahan goes 2-14, he might not be here next year. So for him, there is no delayed gratification: it's just a wasted year. However if he goes 6-10 or better or so, he will live for sure to fight another day. Coaches don't do what's best for the franchise, they do what's what's best for their huge salaries and their huge egos.

Do you think Shanahan would rather build a team on the cusp, lose 14 games, but give Luck or Jones to the next head coach? I think he'd rather take a slightly worse prospect with a top 10 or 12 pick (rather than top 3) and keep his job. That would be better for this team anyway. Getting a new coach would require his own coaches and his own players....I’m debating this from the POV of the team’s best interests.

I’m not in interested in the decision from the point of view of the coach’s welfare. If the coach’s welfare and the team’s best interests are in conflict, then we need another coach as soon as possible.

[BigMike619]

and he could be joe montana, who knows. the point is:

A. we need a QB
B. we will most likely be bad this season giving us a very high draft pick
C. hes the most touted prospect in god knows how long
D. its always a gamble, and if were hitching our wagon to a rookie, i think its best to stick with him

im not saying he couldnt be montana. im saying he is getting called out like a savior when he has never even done a thing.

A. yes, we do.
2. Possibly. There will most likely be teams worse than us who need a QB too.
Next. So was Ryan Leaf. Remember the debate of him possibly going before Manning?
Lastly. I agree. But when I gamble I like to at least know what Im going in to.

Im not saying the kid couldnt be the next best thing but "16 games until we draft our future QB" is a BIG gamble. I watched Leaf out here firsthand and saw him go from the highest rated QB in the pre-season to a major bust. Bradford was called weak because of the shoulder surgeries and look at him.

If we're gonig to hitch our wagon to anything I want it to be a team. Lots of teams can win without a major franchise QB. Heck, we did it 3 times.

[NattyBo]

It doesn't have to be Luck, but I'd be willing to bet anything on here that we draft a QB with our first round pick next year. The higher it is, the better chance we have of getting our 1st choice, though.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If we're gonig to hitch our wagon to anything I want it to be a team. Lots of teams can win without a major franchise QB. Heck, we did it 3 times.

sorry, this is the kind of mentality that has to stop around here. this isnt 1985 anymore, teams do not win without legit QBs. look at history, i think since we won our last superbowl, only 2 mediocre QBs have won superbowls, and thats in 20 years. the ravens did it with the best defense of the decade (and one of the best ever) and the bucs did it with a vet having a great year, also with maybe the best tampa 2 defense ever. we have neither and are not going to have either. so we need to find a stud QB, its the only way we're even going to contend.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 07:09 PM ----------


It doesn't have to be Luck, but I'd be willing to bet anything on here that we draft a QB with our first round pick next year. The higher it is, the better chance we have of getting our 1st choice, though.

100% agree. id rather have the choice to select what we truly want for our future than have our QB selection dictated by a team that lost 2 more meaningless games than we did.

[Oldfan]

I... I can't blame anybody for the negative attitude given recent history, I just don't want to drink a beer or watch a game with you.How can a debate over which strategy is best for the team be negative no matter which side you pick?

[HOGnificent]

the bottom line is we are not going to a super bowl and there not trying to put together a super bowl team in 1 season like they have tried in the past. its going to be a while before we are competitive to the point that high profile players would even want to play for us partly because when its time to be free agents alot of these guys are willing to take a pay cut for the probability of playing for the championship. No one should tank a season or play half A! But we should understand that for now our coaching staff is trying to find the good players in what we have. the ones are going to give it 100% will be here in better days. keep in mind that you have to start somewhere!

[anar-k21]

i absolutely agree...i wouldnt want to lose a season on purpose for a rookie QB that probably wont make it anyway ya know?? jimmie Clausen was supposed to be '"nfl ready" so theres that

and i dont think the team will do that either i think theyll give it the best shot we can

[NattyBo]

i absolutely agree...i wouldnt want to lose a season on purpose for a rookie QB that probably wont make it anyway ya know?? jimmie Clausen was supposed to be '"nfl ready" so theres that


Jimmie Clausen wasn't even drafted in the first round.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i absolutely agree...i wouldnt want to lose a season on purpose for a rookie QB that probably wont make it anyway ya know?? jimmie Clausen was supposed to be '"nfl ready" so theres that

and i dont think the team will do that either i think theyll give it the best shot we can

jimmy clausen fell all the way to middle of the 2nd round, nobody outside of espn thought he was worth that much.

the draft tells you which teams value guys and where they value them. its again why locker was supposed to fall to day 2 and went 8th overall.

[NattyBo]

Again, people need to stop worrying about "tanking" so much, anyway. The team isn't going to lose on purpose. It's going to lose for a multitude of other reasons. We're going to be in the running for a Top 5 pick, IMO. If it does get to the point towards the end of the season where we're at 1, 2, 3 wins, with 3-4 weeks left to go - I absolutely hope we DO tank it though.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Again, people need to stop worrying about "tanking" so much, anyway. The team isn't going to lose on purpose. It's going to lose for a multitude of other reasons. We're going to be in the running for a Top 5 pick, IMO. If it does get to the point towards the end of the season where we're at 1, 2, 3 wins, with 3-4 weeks left to go - I absolutely hope we DO tank it though.

oh if were like 1-11 come week 13 i want us losing out. if 4 meaningless games stand in our way of andrew luck shanny better be using those games as glorified practices lol.

[Baculus]

So, I've read thread after thread during the strike and offseason about how you'll be happy if the Redskins tank or if they win 4 games. You're lying. You say that now, but in the heat of every individual game you'll want to win. You'll be angry and disappointed if we lose. That frustration will grow more profound with each loss and you'll invent new names for Daniel Snyder and roar in hatred of Haslett, Shanny and his son. We're wired to compete... even when we do so by proxy.



You're right, Burgold.

I still burst a gasket every time we lose, even when I expect to do so, because I hate seeing the Redskins go down in flames. So, yeah, a high draft pick and a brand new QB would be nice, but it's going to suck getting there.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You're right, Burgold.

I still burst a gasket every time we lose, even when I expect to do so, because I hate seeing the Redskins go down in flames. So, yeah, a high draft pick and a brand new QB would be nice, but it's going to suck getting there.

weather the storm dude, youll feel much better when we draft our stud QB and you go to the skins store and buy his jersey fresh off the rack, knowing that the QB position will be solidified for at least 3 seasons.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

If we're gonig to hitch our wagon to anything I want it to be a team. Lots of teams can win without a major franchise QB. Heck, we did it 3 times.

The NFL of 2011 is a COMPLETELY different animal to the NFL of the '80's and '90's. It's a pass orientated league now. You need that top bracket passer for sustained success. Teams like the 2000 Ravens happen once in a blue moon. A stellar D, or a stellar ground game will only carry you so far. If you've not got that QB, your not gona' win consistently in today's game.

Hail.

[isle-hawg]

Of course Monday's after a loss will suck! I will root my ass off each Sunday for a win!! I predict now a 3-13 season however and am OK with that IF our only MAJOR need heading into next season is QB. If the team wins more I will be thrilled. Should they win less - welcome aboard Andrew Luck.

Should either Beck or Grossman shock the masses (including me) and prove to be a legit NFL starting QB what a bonus!

[kubstix]

Tanking the season? It's superbowl this year baby. You will all have a change of mind when Rex comes in and starts firing some sexy rex fastballs to Hankerson, Kelly, Moss, and AA allllllll day. When we are sitting 4-0, we will start to see the norm threads.........Is this team for real? Dude, we are good. Rex is playing like a sex machine. ect. I'm pretty damn excited for this season.

[styx491]

oh if were like 1-11 come week 13 i want us losing out. if 4 meaningless games stand in our way of andrew luck shanny better be using those games as glorified practices lol.

I would stand by that since it's a completely different season once we get mathematically eliminated. At that point, the team really IS playing for the next year, players are playing for jobs, and coaches are playing for scheme adjustments (in an ideal world). Before being officially eliminated however, no damn tanking... the team should have a mindset where they compete to win, period. That's the kind of culture Shanahan is trying to instill anyways I think.

[ciresolstice]

I don't believe in losing on purpose/ie tanking. It's crap. I like the offseason moves for the most part but I don't expect a whole lot. It's clearly a rebuild time, to get younger and have depth. Always fight and play to win/be competitive.

[Sekhmet187]

The problem I have with all of it is, is that a majority of the fanbase will still be angry because all it takes is a win here, a win there, and suddenly the Redskins go 5-11 or 6-10 and pick 8-10 again, and suddenly all those people drooling over Luck won't get what they want and then proceed to take their anger out on Shanny and Snyder.

This is one of the least positive fanbases in existence at the moment, and I highly doubt that there is any possible way, short of a SB appearance, that could satisfy 50% of the current fans. There is bound to be something that a group of fans will get pissed about.

[LD0506]

It's about time this thread got some some anti-tank defense..........

http://www.fototime.com/7CC2F262D93AA03/orig.jpg

[iMeast]

So, I've read thread after thread during the strike and offseason about how you'll be happy if the Redskins tank or if they win 4 games. You're lying. You say that now, but in the heat of every individual game you'll want to win. You'll be angry and disappointed if we lose. That frustration will grow more profound with each loss and you'll invent new names for Daniel Snyder and roar in hatred of Haslett, Shanny and his son. We're wired to compete... even when we do so by proxy.

So, stop lying to yourself. Losing begets losing. Winning begets winning and a silent stadium versus a loud one does make a difference. Now, I get the weight that 20 years of disappointment can put on you and I understand how some might want to use cynicism as a defense mechanism, but in a few short weeks you won't see this season as an opening gambit sacrifice. You'll see it as football and every drop, missed tackle, blown penalty will matter. You'll see the missed receivers and cry. You'll agonize over dropped coverages.

Maybe at the end of the season, you'll return to this POV and be glad that you're "winning" the draft race if we do really poorly, but honestly, that's not the race you want to start the season competing for.

This has been a public service announcement. Each minute 1,000 Americans are afflicted with self-deceit. It is a crisis that all too often goes unspoken and untreated.

I never ask, want or hope for the Washington Redskins to lose a game. NO. MATTER. WHAT. I watch every play. Read every interview, tweet and piece done on the 'Skins. I watch every piece of film footage I can get in front of me from OTAs-the end of the season. Screw rooting to win the draft. Root for victory.

HTTR
HTTR

[SkinFaninOKC]

I watch every game believing there is a shot to win it. Like Berman says "that's why they play the game". The tanking issue is ridiculous!! Sure I wouldn't mind if Andrew Luck was our first draft pick next season but I'd rather us make everyone's lives miserable. If we lose 13 games then so be it, only as long as we lost by frustrating margins like 5 or 6. Let's go down fighting!! So many teams with no expectations coming into a season overachieve (Chiefs anyone!!). Why can't the Redskins be that team??

[Burgold]

See, if when all the cards are laid down we have a losing hand and we walk away from the table busted that's okay with me. I can live with that, but I want us to fight like hell and try everything we can and concede nothing. That's the difference. Tucking tail before the deck's even been dealt... that's Congressional talk.

If you ask me straight if I think this team is Superbowl bound I will say "no" but I want us to be scratching, clawing, and punching every instant of every game and I expect to be screaming myself hoarse. The moment I don't... I need to find a new diversion. :)

[SkinsHokieFan]

Can we please stop the Locker and Leaf comparison to Luck? It is not even close how much Andrew Luck out classes those 2 guys

Locker went back to school because only Todd McShay had him as the number 1 overall pick. In fact, the advisory committee told him he would be a 2nd round pikc (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/12/18/locker-didnt-get-a-first-round-grade-from-advisory-committee/)

Ryan Leaf was never statistically in the same class as Luck

Luck completed 70.2% of his passes his sophomore season, and threw for 28 TDs and only 7 INTS

Leaf on the other hand never completed more then 55 percent of his passes in college. He did throw 34 TDs as a junior, which I suspect Luck will get close to, if not surpass this season.

Character wise Luck and Leaf aren't even on the same planet

Yes QBs can bust. However its rare such a sure thing at QB comes along who has all the requisite physical tools along with the intelligence and leadership. That is why there are plenty of us on here willing to overlook W/L in 2011 and roll with the young kids if we get Luck

[SkinFaninOKC]

I don't want to jink Andrew Luck but what happens if he gets injured and misses the entire season like Bradford did in 2009?? It didn't hurt his draft status because the whole QB class that year was Bradford then everyone else(Tebow was picked 24 spots later). This class is much different in that an injury to Luck could shuffle which QB will be the first one taken.

[The Tris]

I don't want to jink Andrew Luck but what happens if he gets injured and misses the entire season like Bradford did in 2009?? It didn't hurt his draft status because the whole QB class that year was Bradford then everyone else(Tebow was picked 24 spots later). This class is much different in that an injury to Luck could shuffle which QB will be the first one taken.

If luck gets injured on the first snap of the first game and doesn't play a down this year, he will still go number one. Even if Landry Jones throws for 4000 yards.

[KDawg]

People are actually turning against Andrew Luck?

If we stink (legitmately, none of this tanking horse****) and we land Luck, I guarantee we'll all be giddy. Try not to let a few people's overeagnerness to purposely lose games overshadow the fact that Luck is a good character, great work ethic, outstanding prospect. And please tell me I didn't see someone compare him to Brennan. Please. :)

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

People are actually turning against Andrew Luck?

If we stink (legitmately, none of this tanking horse****) and we land Luck, I guarantee we'll all be giddy. Try not to let a few people's overeagnerness to purposely lose games overshadow the fact that Luck is a good character, great work ethic, outstanding prospect. And please tell me I didn't see someone compare him to Brennan. Please. :)

again, the idea of tanking is 100% irrelevant because it will never happen in a million years. however, the idea that this team is just very bad and will lose regardless is very logical. so while im not gonna root for us to do poorly, i know better than to think we'll be good.

[SkinFaninOKC]

If luck gets injured on the first snap of the first game and doesn't play a down this year, he will still go number one. Even if Landry Jones throws for 4000 yards.

If Landry Jones throws for 4000 yards and shows what Sam Bradford showed his sophomore year, even if Luck does play the entire season, that is something that might make a GM at least think about who to take. I am with everyone else that Luck is by far the best QB available in next years draft but Jones is probably the only other QB in college with the ability to light up the scoreboard.

[The Tris]

I'd add Robert Griffin to those who can light up the score board.

[NLC1054]

People are actually turning against Andrew Luck?

If we stink (legitmately, none of this tanking horse****) and we land Luck, I guarantee we'll all be giddy. Try not to let a few people's overeagnerness to purposely lose games overshadow the fact that Luck is a good character, great work ethic, outstanding prospect. And please tell me I didn't see someone compare him to Brennan. Please. :)

I think it's Luck fatigue, not just from Redskins fans, but from fans on lots of football teams looking for quarterbacks. All you hear about is how he's the best quarterback prospect since <insert franchise quarterback here>, and the guy hasn't played a down of his would-be senior season yet.

I'm not gonna hate it if we draft him, but the hype surrounding him, and the willingness of the fanbase to accept sucking because they think it means we'll get a chance to draft him, has me worn the hell out. Seeing people talk about how we'll be good in two or three years is fuggin' annoying.

[KDawg]

I'd add Robert Griffin to those who can light up the score board.

Griffin is intriguing, for sure.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 11:15 PM ----------


I think it's Luck fatigue, not just from Redskins fans, but from fans on lots of football teams looking for quarterbacks. All you hear about is how he's the best quarterback prospect since <insert franchise quarterback here>, and the guy hasn't played a down of his would-be senior season yet.

I'm not gonna hate it if we draft him, but the hype surrounding him, and the willingness of the fanbase to accept sucking because they think it means we'll get a chance to draft him, has me worn the hell out. Seeing people talk about how we'll be good in two or three years is fuggin' annoying.

Don't look for him to play a game in his senior season this year, either. He's a junior (redshirt) :)

[SkinFaninOKC]

I'd add Robert Griffin to those who can light up the score board.

He is pretty good but no one is knocking the door down to make him the franchise. I was hoping Mallet would fall to us in the third round, he could have been groomed to be the franchise but the Pats beat us to him.

[Dallsux]

This has been a public service announcement. Each minute 1,000 Americans are afflicted with self-deceit. It is a crisis that all too often goes unspoken and untreated.

Great post, Burgold! I couldn't agree more. :applause:

[NLC1054]

Griffin is intriguing, for sure.

---------- Post added August-3rd-2011 at 11:15 PM ----------



Don't look for him to play a game in his senior season this year, either. He's a junior (redshirt) :)

Right. Forgot.

[Dallsux]

I think it's Luck fatigue, not just from Redskins fans, but from fans on lots of football teams looking for quarterbacks. All you hear about is how he's the best quarterback prospect since <insert franchise quarterback here>, and the guy hasn't played a down of his would-be senior season yet.

I'm not gonna hate it if we draft him, but the hype surrounding him, and the willingness of the fanbase to accept sucking because they think it means we'll get a chance to draft him, has me worn the hell out. Seeing people talk about how we'll be good in two or three years is fuggin' annoying.

Agreed. I'm already tired of hearing about him myself. It's getting really friggin old.

[cneil4]

I have been cheering on the Burgandy and Gold for all of my 43 years on the planet and I never once have looked towards next season or the draft. I watch faithfully till the end of each game. Rejoicing in each win and grumbling with each loss. I love what coach is doing...give me 11 players on both side of the ball who work their butts of each game and we will win. Remember with all three of our Super Bowl Trophys we didn't have "Superstars" and our quarterbacks were never elite. I say win it all this year!!! The eagles will prove you cannot buy a trophy...

[grantarchy]

You say that now, but in the heat of every individual game you'll want to win. You'll be angry and disappointed if we lose.

You don't get it. You're right that I'll be happy if we win. But you're totally off about losing -- I won't be disappointed and certainly not angry if we lose (except maybe for Dallas and anger would only come if we don't play with passion). It would be different if we were actually a good team that was underachieving, but that is not the case.

I don't get why people find it so difficult to understand that building a team the right way means enduring some losing, especially THIS team with the way it has been mismanaged for so long. We've sacrificed the future operating under the ridiculous premise that we're a player or two away from competing and it has become exponentially more ridiculous year after year. Now we're finally building a team the right way and not pumping money into bling-bling type free agents just so that we can perpetuate mediocrity. So no, going through a losing season will not disappoint me. If we appear totally incompetent that would probably disturb me a little bit, but I don't see that happening under Shanahan.

So you can call me a liar, but I will call you misguided. :pfft:

[s0crates]

I think it's Luck fatigue, not just from Redskins fans, but from fans on lots of football teams looking for quarterbacks. All you hear about is how he's the best quarterback prospect since <insert franchise quarterback here>, and the guy hasn't played a down of his would-be senior season yet.

I'm not gonna hate it if we draft him, but the hype surrounding him, and the willingness of the fanbase to accept sucking because they think it means we'll get a chance to draft him, has me worn the hell out. Seeing people talk about how we'll be good in two or three years is fuggin' annoying.Great post bro. My sentiments exactly.

Welcome to ES!

[Burgold]

So you can call me a liar, but I will call you misguided. :pfft:

Always possible :)

But while I can accept a losing year if we have one... I certainly am not openly hoping for one or worse, wishing that we fail spectacularly so that we might be set up for the draft. It's possible that I'll look at our record in December and be glad that we have a great chance to draft a player we need, but for the moment and throughout each game I'm pulling for the present.

[s0crates]

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs_new/allied%20at/tt1.jpg

---------- Post added August-4th-2011 at 06:05 AM ----------

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_oIAhQMTG-dU/TUlh6nsq-YI/AAAAAAAAFrk/SI0bJBilcmI/s1600/battle-of-kursk-in-pictures-ww2-eastern-front-ostfront-009.jpg

:D

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

LOL. How the hell do you not see a big ass 15 ft or more ditch?

Something tells me that tank driver had a short lived job.

Hail.

[LD0506]

LOL. How the hell do you not see a big ass 15 ft or more ditch?

Something tells me that tank driver had a short lived job.

Hail.

They drove it into the ditch on purpose in the hope they could get a better driver out of the next batch of recruits

[GibbsFactor]

They drove it into the ditch on purpose in the hope they could get a better driver out of the next batch of recruits

Touche!

[MartinC]

LOL. How the hell do you not see a big ass 15 ft or more ditch?

Something tells me that tank driver had a short lived job.

Hail.

Thats a picture of a Russian T34 from WWII. The vision from tanks of that era when they are buttoned up is pretty terrible - and if it was in combat the driver probably had other things to worry about ;)

---------- Post added August-4th-2011 at 08:18 AM ----------


They drove it into the ditch on purpose in the hope they could get a better driver out of the next batch of recruits

Well played sir! I bet that driver was over 30 as well ....

[stevemcqueen1]

The important thing, though, is that for the first time since I can remember, the team building strategy is in line with the team itself, and if we continue to build heavily through the draft, and prudently through FA, the QB position will work itself out. Even when we don't get Andrew Luck.

Nice post and I agree with the whole thing. I think our strategy to rebuild through youth has finally materialized and the roster is starting to take shape. In 2004 and 2005 we saw the core Redskins of the Joe Gibbs era brought in through FA. That's what we're seeing this offseason with the group we've brought in.

The draft strategy of adding lots of picks is also a sound one although I still think it's a bit of a bummer coming during the lockout--a lost rookie class in general means I think you should shoot for quality over quantity to make sure you get a few high character/high work ethic guys who you know can weather a stunted rookie season.

But the strategy itself remains sound. Of course, I have a problem with who was picked and the position groups targeted, as I don't think we drafted especially well. But just drafting lots of times is a huge step forward for the organization.

So in the end that's mostly positive gains throughout the offseason due to a fundamental shift in philosophy towards rebuilding. To me its utterly obvious we're a better team this year than last year. I don't see how we can lose 10 or more games. Beck would have to be unprecedentedly awful for that to happen which I find extremely unlikely (and if he was, we'd just start Grossman). After all, this is the guy that Kyle and Mike Shanahan have picked out as their guy and passed on every single draft pick QB and free agent QB for this offseason. If there wasn't ability there, then we'd have been looking for someone else. Mike and Kyle are QB guys. They're not going to go into a season with QBs they think are horrible just so they can have an opportunity to draft high and possibly get a good QB prospect to work with a year down the road. NFL coaches just don't plan that far ahead when it comes to specific players in the next draft. There is just no way they'd endorse Beck and let him become the starter if they didn't believe in him.

It's the second year of the Shanahan regime. Bottoming out isn't an option any more (and is almost always a signal for a regime change). Our strategy needs to be to steadily improve incrementally from year to year. If we do that, we'll become a playoff organization in a year or two.

Also I'm surprised nobody has really mentioned finishing with the first overall pick is a black stain on your franchise's legacy in the NFL. It'd be humiliating and our franchise is on shaky ground already. That kind of losing would solidify the perception we belong in the underclass of the NFL just like it did for the once proud Raiders. I can't bear to watch my Redskins DVDs and see how great and rich our tradition used to be and then see a current laughing stock of a franchise and ponder over how it could come to this.

---------- Post added August-4th-2011 at 01:43 PM ----------

Also here's a point that's only lightly been made--Andrew Luck is a great prospect you can feel confident in projecting NFL success for. Perhaps more confident for him than any other prospect of the decade. That does not mean he's the most talented QB prospect, even in CFB right now. He's clearly not. That also does not mean you're projecting him to become the best QB in the NFL either, again, clearly that's impossible to do since situation makes most of the difference. The projection doesn't really come with specific predictions of future production relative to the prospects receiving lower grades in this and next year's draft.

We obviously don't need Andrew Luck to have elite production from our QB. One of the benefits of having QB gurus for your HC and OC is supposed to be that you don't need to draft guys like Andrew Luck to find a top notch solution at the position.

I'm not sure why people are so hung up on Luck. We're obviously never going to be drafting high enough to get him. There are several other great prospects in this class worth watching too (and not.just the 2013 boys either).

[derekc4]

Since NFL rules on the draft order reward failure, you are wrong. The odds of hitting on a good QB are increased. Is it certain we will hit? No, but a sound strategy is only expected to give you a better chance.


I’m debating this from the POV of the team’s best interests.

I’m not in interested in the decision from the point of view of the coach’s welfare. If the coach’s welfare and the team’s best interests are in conflict, then we need another coach as soon as possible.

Sorry to say this, but people don't work to improve companies, they work to make money and keep their jobs. Sorry, but that's life, buddy.

[mistertim]

That does not mean he's the most talented QB prospect, even in CFB right now. He's clearly not.

Purely out of curiosity, who do you think is more talented than Luck in CFB right now? And how would you define "talented"? Physical attributes? Mental?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

They drove it into the ditch on purpose in the hope they could get a better driver out of the next batch of recruits

Now that had me LOL. Very good man. Very good indeed.

Hail.

[ixcuincle]

Why would you think this team wins less than 6 games

Come on, be realistic. I know we have a QB quandary but this team is winning 7 games

7-9

This team is not atrocious enough to tank for Luck. I'm sorry. That's for the Bengals and maybe Niners ;)