2012: Trade it all for the #1 pick(Probably Luck), even 2013 picks if needed?

[Rdskns2000]

I would say most would feel that Rex is nothing more than a stop gap. For every good play he may make, he will make a bad play. The Skins long term success will be tied to some future QB.

2012 could be that time when we decide to invest in a future QB.

The consensus is Andrew Luck will be the #1 QB. If the season plays out like most think it will, we should be drafting anywhere from 10-20.

My poll question: Would you trade all your picks and even 2013 picks if need for the #1 pick?

[airs0ft3r]

No. Absolutely not. We have shown we can win with Rex. One bad game doesn't mean the world is crashing.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I have said it since the last game of last year, absolutley

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

No. Absolutely not. We have shown we can win with Rex. One bad game doesn't mean the world is crashing.

Shown we can win with Rex?

Win "what" exactly?

[MLSKINS]

For the last time, there are other QB's in the next draft other than Luck that can play.

[coolbeans]

The team with that pick will never trade it. When Luck becomes a great QB, they will be crusified. I don't see any team trading the chance to draft Luck.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Luck, Barkley etc.

Gotta get a franchise QB.

[Rdskns2000]

I do recognize the need for that franchise QB. ASF- the Atlanta one; can post all the damn stats he wants. Rex is nothing more than a stop gap. He's a mediocre QB and nothing will change that.

I noticed in SHF thread that besides him, they are several people who are willing to trade all of 2012 and even 2013 to get the right for the number #1 pick and draft Andrew Luck. I would not do that.

No one player is worth that. Especially for a team still with many needs. They will be other QBS in the draft and if Shanny/Bruce feel they need to trade up for a QB; there will be QBs available lower where it won't cost as much to move up.

No, I'm not giving up on 2011. Just seeing the needs this team will have next year. I wasn't buying into Art's 4-0 post because I felt then and still do this is a .500 team. One big reason is Rex. If my preseason prediction holds true; Rex would be

benched after the Iggles game. We will see.

[Sizzla3000]

Yeah 6-10 and 8-8 records have been killing us. We need a real QB. 2 wins may not be able to land us luck at this point. We would need to drop all the rest of our games to have a chance.

[#98QBKiller]

On one hand, I don't really want to trade future 1st round picks for Luck, but if there's a QB there that Shanahan believes in I'm all for us trading up to get him.

[Buford]

- Andrew Luck
- Matt Barkley
- Landry Jones
- Nick Foles
- Kirk Cousins
- Ryan Lindley
- Robert Griffin III
- Kellen Moore


I think we can get a really good rookie QB without trading at all.

[Skins4Life6388]

No chance bc if he ends up being anything short of manning or Brady we completely screwed ourselves for a looooooong time. I think kellen Moore is going to end up being really good and would be available for much less draft picks

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

- Andrew Luck
- Matt Barkley
- Landry Jones
- Nick Foles
- Kirk Cousins
- Ryan Lindley
- Robert Griffin III
- Kellen Moore


I think we can get a really good rookie QB without trading at all.
Depends on where we're picking.

And fwiw, some those QBs on your list aren't franchise caliber imo.

[Enter Apotheosis]

If you honestly believe that trading entire drafts away for Andrew Luck is the answer then you probably watch way too much college football and pay way too little attention to the NFL offseason. It's just a terrible idea.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Which is why you're typing this and not sure in charge of making the decisions.

[NLC1054]

NO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgI2ZQVyrBo&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkO5VyY78xQ&feature=related

[War Paint]

I highly doubt the team in position to draft Luck will take any deal. You could offer them 1st rounders for the next four years and they will reject it. The only way it would be possible to trade up for Luck is if a team that doesn't need a QB has the 1st overall pick. The Colts, Seahawks and Dolphins will definitely take Luck. They will turn down any trade.

[Buford]

Depends on where we're picking.

And fwiw, some those QBs on your list aren't franchise caliber imo.


I'd bet big money if over the years if I had put Big Ben, Flacco, Freeman and Schaub on that list. Most would say exactly that.

What is a franchise QB anymore? We just lost to an undrafted guy last night.

[earl]

don't sleep on Robert Griffin III.

[#98QBKiller]

I'd bet big money if over the years if I had put Big Ben, Flacco, Freeman and Schaub on that list. Most would say exactly that.

What is a franchise QB anymore? We just lost to an undrafted guy last night.

I'm not familiar with every QB on your list but Kellen Moore weighs less than Santana Moss. I don't see him QBing in the NFL.

[Crazy Levi]

Vinny, is that you?

Oh it isn't? You don't run the team anymore?

That's good. Cause only idiots like you STILL think trading away draft picks is a good idea.

[757SeanTaylor21]

Im about 100% sure that if the rams was to get the 1st overall pick, they would trade out of it. They already have sam bradford, why would they take luck?!! If it WAS the rams, than you make one heckuva deal and see if you can land it. If the shanaplan is to get him by every means necessary, ill be on board. Even if i dont think it was necessarily necessary.

[Buford]

I'm not familiar with every QB on your list but Kellen Moore weighs less than Santana Moss. I don't see him QBing in the NFL.


Is luck the best guy? Yes. Is he worth spending a lot to get? I don't know. Really....If we could trade Danny Smith, DeAngelo Hall, our 1st and 2nd rounders....I might do it. But the odds are he would cost a lot more for some team with the worst record.

From all the college football stuff I've been reading, the QB class of '12 is much better than the one that just happened. MUCH MUCH better.

If the Redskins dedicate themselves to have the best OL in the NFL with a good running game, you can plug in a rookie and gameplan to let him learn on the job. If I am Bruce Allen, I am looking at the OL and wondering how I can improve every single spot all the time. If you can protect a QB like we did with #11 back in the 90's.....you can afford to develop a guy while playing him.

[RichmondRedskin88]

Damn NOOOOOO!! There's plenty of good QBs. you don't trade all your picks. Have we learned anything from the past?

[Skinz4Life12]

terrible idea. we need to have another solid offseason like we did this year and concentrate on drafting a QB and building up our O-Line

[Houston2Taylor2Landry]

This is the downfall of this board. We are 2-1 no matter what way you slice it. We have a great chance at starting 3-1 and a fair chance at 5-1. Let's wait a little longer than 3 games... Especially when we have won 2 of those 3 games....

[authentic]

No way!! we have other needs to fill on this team. Its not like we have the talent of Green Bay (minus Aaron Rogers). We still need to address the Oline, ILB, and WR...BTW Luck is not the only Franchise QB in the draft.

[AsburySkinsFan]

My poll question: Would you trade all your picks and even 2013 picks if need for the #1 pick?

ALL of 2012 and 2013??? No, that's stupid.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/ocujer/10qjq4w.gif

And I'm one of the guys who thinks we should have traded up for Cam Newton, but all of our picks for the next two years?!
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/ocujer/C2527Mon2BMan.jpg

For suggesting such a thing I hereby subject you to this.....
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/ocujer/ewww.jpg

[SkinZ187]

if the rams end up with the first overall pick, you can bet that they will definately be looking to trade out of that spot....and if it happens, they will trade out of that spot netting them a butt load of pics to bolster that team around bradford.

we really need to beat the rams this week :point2sky

[#98QBKiller]

Is luck the best guy? Yes. Is he worth spending a lot to get? I don't know. Really....If we could trade Danny Smith, DeAngelo Hall, our 1st and 2nd rounders....I might do it. But the odds are he would cost a lot more for some team with the worst record.

From all the college football stuff I've been reading, the QB class of '12 is much better than the one that just happened. MUCH MUCH better.

If the Redskins dedicate themselves to have the best OL in the NFL with a good running game, you can plug in a rookie and gameplan to let him learn on the job. If I am Bruce Allen, I am looking at the OL and wondering how I can improve every single spot all the time. If you can protect a QB like we did with #11 back in the 90's.....you can afford to develop a guy while playing him.


QB is the one position we've failed on consistently for a couple of decades now. Ironically, it's the most important position to get right to be a regular contender.

Is Luck the best in the draft? Yes. Is this a deep QB class? Yes. But that doesn't mean that we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and take a "project" guy in the 6th and pray that we can develop him into Tom Brady.

We need to stop ****ing around and take one of the top few projected QBs in the first round and develop him. If Jones or Barkley are the # 2 & 3 options and Shanahan is enamored with one of their talents, I'm all for trading up to get them.

Yes we need a solid OL to put the new QB behind and we have a good start with the current OL right now. But getting the right QB is the priority at this point and time. Rex Grossman isn't winning us any championships and do we really want to neglect QB again this draft and rely on John Beck or some late round project?

I don't. I'm tired of seeing other teams win with good QBs.

I'm being patient with this team and I like our defense and the direction we're headed but 2012 draft is the time to make a move for a franchise QB for this team.


*Edit:

Also I'm tired of hearing older fans suggest that we should attempt to build our team in a way that worked for us under Gibbs I. This is a different time and a different NFL. The Principles remain the same but we're not winning 3 SBs with 3 different QBs in today's NFL.

I'm not saying you suggested that but your mention of Mark Rypien reminded me of some of the stuff that I hear on here about trying to build a team in the form of our 80s teams that were so good.

[Chicken Fried]

We probably can't afford to do that. What about Barkley and Landry Jones? All it takes is one bad injury and Andrew Luck won't be the same. It's risky to mortgage so much on a "sure thing." Look at Ricky Williams.

[Bibby]

Swap 1st round picks and throw in a 3rd and JC's 4th to move up in the draft to get "our" guy, I'm okay with. Giving up the entire draft, no thanks.

[sean_e_b]

In hindsight, would you have traded all these guys (our 1998 draft class) for Peyton Manning:
Brian Simmons (Taken by Bengals via Redskins pick)
Stephen Alexander
Skip Hicks
Shawn Barber
Mark Fischer
Pat Palmer
David Terrell
Antwaune Ponds


IF Shanahan believes Luck is the next Peyton Manning, I would be pissed if they weren't willing to offer most, if not the entire, 2012 draft. As for the 2012 AND 2013 drafts, I say absolutely no.

[Champskins]

Why is this a thread!? We know we are not getting Luck.... Lets talk about Robert Griffin III... Any team willing to trade all of those picks and we'd have to change our name to the Raiders! Ok, ill humor you, lets trade away all of the draft, put Luck in there with mediocre talent surrounding him and he eventually is a scared puppy like Ramsey, Campbell, Brunell, etc.... BRILLIANT!

[authentic]

Yes we need a solid OL to put the new QB behind and we have a good start with the current OL right now. But getting the right QB is the priority at this point and time. Rex Grossman isn't winning us any championships and do we really want to neglect QB again this draft and rely on John Beck or some late round project?

I don't. I'm tired of seeing other teams win with good QBs.

I'm being patient with this team and I like our defense and the direction we're headed but 2012 draft is the time to make a move for a franchise QB for this team.
.


I actually think they purposely neglected addressing QB in this year's draft - looking forward to 2012, where the QB stock will be much better. Otherwise i agree with everything you're saying.

[Fred Jones]

Two thoughts:

1. Franchise QB's are the only ones to shell out multiple draft picks for or two first rounders.

2. The team with the first pick is not going to give up the ability to draft Luck so it is a mute point.

And, I do agree that Rex is not the long term answer and we still need to find our franchise QB. Rex is a good stopgap.

[martytheman]

Wow, back to this retarded **** again??
you people never change.

[GibbsFactor]

I would have gone as far as trading all of 2011 picks to get more ammo in 2012 to make sure we had enough to trade up.

Now we have Rex Grossman and John Beck. Some are even content with that. Albert Einstein would call most of you insane.

[Champskins]

Wow, back to this retarded **** again??
you people never change.

Ay, whatchu mean you people?!

[Audible_Red40]

No. This team has so many needs you don't give them way. There will be other QBs in this draft.

[jivelikenice]

We don't need to trade all of our picks for Luck. We can trade less to move up for Barkley and still build a team around him.

[Taylorfan2179]

As much as I hate to say it, no we can't trade everything for luck. Too much can go wrong with that. as for Barkley. USC offensive players generally suck. The exception being carson palmer, kinda.

[Painkiller]

Who cares, we are 2-1 plenty of games left in 2011.

[Champskins]

As much as I hate to say it, no we can't trade everything for luck. Too much can go wrong with that. as for Barkley. USC offensive players generally suck. The exception being carson palmer, kinda.

or Fred Davis?

[darrelgreenie]

My poll question: Would you trade all your picks and even 2013 picks if need for the #1 pick?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CPwOOK4nEM

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

im down to gamble to get luck. DO IT.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

No, and I want a Luck or Jones as bad as anyone.

But that would be WAY too high a price to pay when we STILL have a whole bunch of other holes to fill. We just aren't in any sort of position to even consider a move like that.

Hail.

[Warhead36]

We have too many other holes to fill.

I do think we'll get a QB, we may even move up, but I don't think we'll pay that kinda ransom. In recent memory the Jaguars, Jets, Ravens, and Broncos all traded up in the 1st round to get their QB and didn't have to give up all that much.

Still too early to talk draft though we have no idea how it'll shake out.

[Boss_Hogg]

We need a young, franchise QB, someone Mike and Kyle can groom into a superstar.

I'm not down for trading the house for Luck, but maybe we can strike gold with some of the other QBs in the draft?

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I wouldn't trade ALL of the 2012 and 2013 drafts but I'd be willing to give up quite a bit.

Multiple 1sts, second rounders, players etc.

And forget Luck, I'd do it for Barkley as well.


This isn't the 80s where you can just plug in a "guy".

[Champskins]

Robert Griffin III... He's right up there with Luck IMO, its been discussed quite a bit on the Draft Database. Barkley is next in line with Tannehill

[dallasfan]

I would say most would feel that Rex is nothing more than a stop gap. For every good play he may make, he will make a bad play. The Skins long term success will be tied to some future QB.

2012 could be that time when we decide to invest in a future QB.

The consensus is Andrew Luck will be the #1 QB. If the season plays out like most think it will, we should be drafting anywhere from 10-20.

My poll question: Would you trade all your picks and even 2013 picks if need for the #1 pick?

You would have to hope that none of the current 0-3 teams (Dolphins, Colts, KC), except maybe the Rams and Vikes end up with the #1 pick, or it won't be for sale. No matter what you offer. Even if the Rams or Vikes end up with the #1 pick, trading your entire draft starting with a pick outside the top 15 or so, won't be enough either.

[ConnSKINS26]

I wouldn't trade ALL of the 2012 and 2013 drafts but I'd be willing to give up quite a bit.

Multiple 1sts, second rounders, players etc.

And forget Luck, I'd do it for Barkley as well.


This isn't the 80s where you can just plug in a "guy".

Barkley looks pretty mediocre to me.

[wilco_holland]

I don´t like trading up unless you are already in the playoffs and you are really one player away from the SB (Like Atlanta did)....but I´m not that much ´in love´ with Luck. I even start to think that he might get a little hyped up. Sure he is good, but Manning like? People are talking about him like he is going to come out and just be one of the top QB's in this league. Really?

So I say noooooooooooh.

[#98QBKiller]

I actually think they purposely neglected addressing QB in this year's draft - looking forward to 2012, where the QB stock will be much better. Otherwise i agree with everything you're saying.

I'd definitely rather them wait it out and draft the QB they want rather than rush and draft one for the sake of doing it.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I don´t like trading up unless you are already in the playoffs and you are really one player away from the SB (Like Atlanta did)....but I´m not that much ´in love´ with Luck. I even start to think that he might get a little hyped up. Sure he is good, but Manning like? People are talking about him like he is going to come out and just be one of the top QB's in this league. Really?

So I say noooooooooooh.

You haven't watched enough of Luck then.

Wes Bunting has had some great write ups on him. What he is able to do between the snap of the ball and completeing his drop back is incredible

[LightningBuggs]

Would love Luck, but that seems unlikely at this point.

Plenty of other very good QB's mentioned in this thread. Though no mention of Brandon Weeden. Liked what I saw of him this past weekend.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

We aren't going to be bad enough to pull this off.

I look forward to us wildly overpaying for Ryan Fitzpatrick however.

[Champskins]

Would love Luck, but that seems unlikely at this point.

Plenty of other very good QB's mentioned in this thread. Though no mention of Brandon Weeden. Liked what I saw of him this past weekend.

Weeden is my #4 guy, with Landry Jones right now... just worry about his age, but then again his age might be the very reason we could get him in the 3rd round. The intangibles are there. Id like to actually take the package deal of Justin Blackmon/ Brandon Weeden :drool:

[Slacky McSlackAss]

- Andrew Luck
- Matt Barkley
- Landry Jones
- Nick Foles
- Kirk Cousins
- Ryan Lindley
- Robert Griffin III
- Kellen Moore


I think we can get a really good rookie QB without trading at all.

Replace Moore with Tannehill, and that's a solid list. Add in Brandon Weeden and Case Keenum as well.

[GWinSkins83]

Naw I rather have RGIII and say next year say Mathuie

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 02:47 PM ----------


Robert Griffin III... He's right up there with Luck IMO, its been discussed quite a bit on the Draft Database. Barkley is next in line with Tannehill

I agree with you RGIII in the same league with Luck. And with Mike and Kyle as his coach I believe he could be better than Luck in the NFL if Luck ends up with a defensive minded Head Coach.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

Absolutely not! That is the kind of thinking that has buried us for the past two decades. I admit that picking in the middle of the pack can keep us from getting that franchise qb, but it can also save you from wasting a lot of time, money, and effort on a massive bust. The strategy last year was the right one, stockpile picks and get a lot of good young players not only to start, but for depth as well. Eventually we could have the scenario that NE had with multiple picks in each of the first few rounds. I want the next PM, DB, TB as bad as anyone but we can't mortgage the future to try and get him. What good is it to have him if we can't bring in any weapons or protection around him for the next few years because we traded draft picks away?

[rookieskin]

Can there be an option D?

- Trade it all for the first pick and take the best O-lineman available?

[SkinsHokieFan]

Absolutely not! That is the kind of thinking that has buried us for the past two decades. I admit that picking in the middle of the pack can keep us from getting that franchise qb, but it can also save you from wasting a lot of time, money, and effort on a massive bust. The strategy last year was the right one, stockpile picks and get a lot of good young players not only to start, but for depth as well. Eventually we could have the scenario that NE had with multiple picks in each of the first few rounds. I want the next PM, DB, TB as bad as anyone but we can't mortgage the future to try and get him. What good is it to have him if we can't bring in any weapons or protection around him for the next few years because we traded draft picks away?

Then you let him sit on the bench for 2 years. I am hoping that Rex is serviceable enough where we can have a Favre to Rodgers situation. QBs that are able to sit and are not forced to play are better off

[Champskins]

Can there be an option D?

- Trade it all for the first pick and take the best O-lineman available?

First overall for an O-lineman? No sir. Good o-lineman can be found later. Either QB or you trade out of the first and acquire picks

[bird_1972]

Then you let him sit on the bench for 2 years. I am hoping that Rex is serviceable enough where we can have a Favre to Rodgers situation. QBs that are able to sit and are not forced to play are better off

That's fine, but this "trade the entire draft for Luck" junk needs to go.

No player is worth that much. Even if he is the next Peyton Manning, having Peyton has only yeilded the Colts one SB. That's great and all, but teams like the Packers, Pats, and Saints seem to have a more balanced team with talent more evenly distributed - none of which has a QB that was as lauded as Manning or Luck coming out of college.

We are much better off taking a top 5 QB and maybe trading up once in the first round while still being able to address our awful OL and interior LB corps in the draft rather than to sacrifice it all for one guy.

[FrFan]

Amazing, some people want to pull a Ditka².

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

Then you let him sit on the bench for 2 years. I am hoping that Rex is serviceable enough where we can have a Favre to Rodgers situation. QBs that are able to sit and are not forced to play are better off

I agree that sitting for a couple years is better than throwing them in the deep in right away, but the trading of everything for one player is complete foolishness. Even if luck turns out to be the next PM, he has only equated to 1 Superbowl...1! He receives a TON of money and the team has brought in pretty descent players around him, but they have never been a completely solid team all the way around. Often their D has been terrible, their running game will let them down and their depth is nonexistent. Just look at the situation they are in now, they put all their stock into PM, Painter has sat behind him for awhile and when it is his turn to step up, he can't do the job. Their whole franchise has been paralyzed over one players injury. The thing I think about is that if they keep going the way they are, they are the ones that will end up with Luck next year. NE has created the template for how to properly build a competitive, solid franchise and that is the model we need to follow. HTTR1

[-JB-]

You dont stand a chance in hell of winning SB's in today NFL without a franchise great QB. I would give up picks galore to get Luck. Doubt we'd get that chance cause whoever gets #1 is most likely going to need a QB unless the Rams get the #1 pick & opt to obtain a lot of picks to build around Bradford. I absolutely would make a trade to move up. Its like having Peyton Manning suddenly fall into your lap. You might not have to give up as much to move up & get Landry Jones so that's an option too. I feel that defensively the Redskins are very solid. To bring in a franchise QB could immediately elevate the Skins to consistent playoff/SB contender... Lack a big playmaking WR & could add depth to OL but other than that its not like the Skins haven't addressed many holes...

GIVE ME MY FRANCHISE QB !!!!!!

[tdigle]

Hmm...I'm going to wait and see how the season plays out. I am not against trading up, but I'd prefer that we not trade so much. The most I'd be comfortable with is: 2012 1st and 3rd and 2013 1st and 3rd.

[U C S D SkinsFan]

I'd give up 2 firsts and a couple of other picks, but not the whole draft. I doubt we have a chance at Luck. I think whoever has the 1st pick keeps it.

[-JB-]

Amazing, some people want to pull a Ditka².


Difference is..... He traded the house for a RB !!!! We're talking about trading picks for a bona fide superstar QB. They dont grow on tree's.... Proof ? The Redskins haven't had one since Sammy Baugh !

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Difference is..... He traded the house for a RB !!!! We're talking about trading picks for a bona fide superstar QB. They dont grow on tree's.... Proof ? The Redskins haven't had one since Sammy Baugh !

Some dude by the name of Jurgensen would like a word.

Hail.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

After the draft we appear to have had this past April, I'm shocked that anyone would be willing to give up 7 or more picks for a good QB. We filled several holes this past off-season by wisely drafting players that fit our schemes. If we do that for another off-season and take a QB that comes to us naturally in the draft, we'd be much better off.

[Champskins]

Difference is..... He traded the house for a RB !!!! We're talking about trading picks for a bona fide superstar QB. They dont grow on tree's.... Proof ? The Redskins haven't had one since Sammy Baugh !

He's not a "bona fide superstar" until he's played a down in the NFL and proves it.
There will be a few good 'franchise' guys this draft.
Anyone remember when Locker was the consensus #1 pick in 2010 and then went back to college and came out in 2011 and wasn't number 1? Not comparing Locker to Luck but you just don't trade everything.
You can make a reasonable offer if Luck is Shanny's guy, but they know better than to overdue it.
If Luck was the only good QB coming out next year and we had a great team to surround him with, then I'd say to at least try and pull some magic but there are a few options.
Personally, like I said before, get the teams to bite and bid on Luck... so we can swoop in and get RGIII (if you don't know who RGIII is, then you shouldnt be discussing the QB's in the draft at all)

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

After the draft we appear to have had this past April, I'm shocked that anyone would be willing to give up 7 or more picks for a good QB. We filled several holes this past off-season by wisely drafting players that fit our schemes. If we do that for another off-season and take a QB that comes to us naturally in the draft, we'd be much better off.

Because we filled so many holes with the draft and free agency, I'm more willing to give up picks to acquire a franchise QB.

[zskins]

No. Absolutely not. We have shown we can win with Rex. One bad game doesn't mean the world is crashing.

Agreed. I feel he could have done better and with 13 games still left it is better not to be haste and waste!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Because we filled so many holes with the draft and free agency, I'm more willing to give up picks to acquire a franchise QB.

There are apparently many QBs out there who would be a nice addition to this team. We could grab one of those QBs while also continuing to fill holes. We still need linebacker, linemen, cornerbacks, and maybe even a stud WR. I'd rather make this team as complete as possible.

[-JB-]

He's not a "bona fide superstar" until he's played a down in the NFL and proves it.
There will be a few good 'franchise' guys this draft.
Anyone remember when Locker was the consensus #1 pick in 2010 and then went back to college and came out in 2011 and wasn't number 1? Not comparing Locker to Luck but you just don't trade everything.
You can make a reasonable offer if Luck is Shanny's guy, but they know better than to overdue it.
If Luck was the only good QB coming out next year and we had a great team to surround him with, then I'd say to at least try and pull some magic but there are a few options.
Personally, like I said before, get the teams to bite and bid on Luck... so we can swoop in and get RGIII (if you don't know who RGIII is, then you shouldnt be discussing the QB's in the draft at all)

Andrew Luck is the best QB prospect to enter the draft since Peyton Manning. You have to be kidding me. He's a sure thing. We won't get him anyway cause whoever gets the #1 pick will take him anyway. Like I said unless Rams get #1 pick.

[Destructis]

I didn't vote. In ShanAllen I trust.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

Difference is..... He traded the house for a RB !!!! We're talking about trading picks for a bona fide superstar QB. They dont grow on tree's.... Proof ? The Redskins haven't had one since Sammy Baugh !

By your logic you just defeated your own argument. If the Skin's haven't had a "superstar qb" since Sammy, I would argue their is no need for a superstar qb. Proof... Let me remind you of JT, DW, and MR, and the 3 rings they are wearing. I will take a solid all around team over a team with one superstar qb any day. HAIL!

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

There are apparently many QBs out there who would be a nice addition to this team. We could grab one of those QBs while also continuing to fill holes. We still need linebacker, linemen, cornerbacks, and maybe even a stud WR. I'd rather make this team as complete as possible.

I hear what you're saying but how many years are we going to put this off?

Bottomline: Until we get that franchise QB, we're just treading water. :(

[Champskins]

Andrew Luck is the best QB prospect to enter the draft since Peyton Manning. You have to be kidding me. He's a sure thing. We won't get him anyway cause whoever gets the #1 pick will take him anyway. Like I said unless Rams get #1 pick.

Seasons got a long way to go. Not saying your wrong at all, but you never know in college football. I'd say he's close to Sam Bradford before puting him with the likes of the best QB to ever play the game in Peyton Manning, but who knows - maybe he'll get there.

Also, I dont like the term "sure thing" when it comes to the draft... We've all seen the opposite side of that spectrum of expectations far too many times. It all depends on the transition to the NFL game...

Plus, he will reunite with his former coach Harbaugh in San Fran which I am surprised no one has mentioned. RGIII should be a Redskin

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

.. Let me remind you of JT, DW, and MR, and the 3 rings they are wearing.

With all due respect, how many years ago was that?

The game has evolved.

[SoCalSkinsFan1975]

With all due respect, how many years ago was that?

The game has evolved.

MUCH more recently then when SAMMY was playing! The evolution does not dissmiss the fact that the team needs to be solid all the way around and have a certain measure of depth.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I hear what you're saying but how many years are we going to put this off?

Bottomline: Until we get that franchise QB, we're just treading water. :(

In terms of results...we might be only treading water and losing a handful of games we could win. But we would be moving forward as an organization and building the foundation which would be ready to take off and dominate once we add the key piece. Also, I'm not advocating skipping the QB position, just not trading up for the #1 pick. I have to imagine a promising QB would be there at 8 or 10 or 16...wherever we will be slated to draft.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

MUCH more recently then when SAMMY was playing!

Thats true...but we're still talking about 20+ years ago. :2cents:

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 07:39 PM ----------


In terms of results...we might be only treading water and losing a handful of games we could win. But we would be moving forward as an organization and building the foundation which would be ready to take off and dominate once we add the key piece. Also, I'm not advocating skipping the QB position, just not trading up for the #1 pick. I have to imagine a promising QB would be there at 8 or 10 or 16...wherever we will be slated to draft.

Fair enough. :cheers:

[RichmondRedskin88]

It would be nice to get Luck but we need other things too. There's a few QBs would who be perfectible capable for us.

[rockfan7224]

I'm of the who cares group.

There's 13 games left.

Seeing what they did with this draft, I would be apprehensive about trading the farm for anyone considering the other holes we should fill as well on this team.

[FrFan]

Difference is..... He traded the house for a RB !!!! We're talking about trading picks for a bona fide superstar QB. They dont grow on tree's.... Proof ? The Redskins haven't had one since Sammy Baugh !

As good as Luck is, college talent doesn't translate automatically to the NFL level, nothing for sure here. Nevertheless coach Gibbs managed to win 3 SB with 3 different QBs.

[-JB-]

Did somebody just compare Robert Griffin III to Andrew Luck ? Absolutely ridiculous. You're going to hang your hat on the fact he's thrown more TDs than incompletions & compare him to a bona fide NFL star caliber QB like Luck who absolutely makes all the throws. Peyton Manning in the making ! Griffin isn't in his class ! Are you kidding me ?! Lmao

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 03:49 PM ----------


As good as Luck is, college talent doesn't translate automatically to the NFL level. Nevertheless coach Gibbs managed to win 3 SB with 3 different QBs.

In a completely different era ! That will NEVER happen again ! Ever. You need a franchise QB. If Joe Gibbs would have drafted Aaron Rodgers our franchise is completely different !

[GibbsFactor]

Albert Einstein would classify 75% of you insane.

Just saying.

We are talking about the number 1 prospect since John Elway, whom many consider to be the best prospect ever. EVER!!!

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 03:52 PM ----------

Seriously, what do we have to lose?

[ConnSKINS26]

Did somebody just compare Robert Griffin III to Andrew Luck ? Absolutely ridiculous. You're going to hang your hat on the fact he's thrown more TDs than incompletions & compare him to a bona fide NFL star caliber QB like Luck who absolutely makes all the throws. Peyton Manning in the making ! Griffin isn't in his class ! Are you kidding me ?! Lmao

Well, with logic like that, who can argue?


If Joe Gibbs would have drafted Aaron Rodgers our franchise is completely different !

Actually, Aaron Rodgers probably would have crashed and burned here.

[Champskins]

Did somebody just compare Robert Griffin III to Andrew Luck ? Absolutely ridiculous. You're going to hang your hat on the fact he's thrown more TDs than incompletions & compare him to a bona fide NFL star caliber QB like Luck who absolutely makes all the throws. Peyton Manning in the making ! Griffin isn't in his class ! Are you kidding me ?! Lmao!

Referring to me I guess. It wasn't a comparison at all. They are simply both the top two QB's right now in college football. Period. With Luck getting the slight advantage. Two different styles altogether, equally talented.

[-JB-]

Referring to me I guess. It wasn't a comparison at all. They are simply both the top two QB's right now in college football. Period. With Luck getting the slight advantage. Two different styles altogether, equally talented.



Landry Jones is the #2 prospect. Easily.

[Champskins]

Landry Jones is the #2 prospect. Easily.

Have you watched college football this year, or are you going by some internet polls you read before the season started? L. Jones is barely cracking the top 5 right now with Tannehill, Weeden, Barkley, Griffin and Luck all ahead

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I would love to have a franchise QB but what if they evaluate Luck or whoever the top prospect is (prob luck) and decide he isn't a great fit. Then why not just stay pat with our picks and draft the QB that works for us? I agree though the first pick SHOULD be a QB. If not offensive linemen. Lots of them. And more CBs to replace Hall

[-JB-]

Actually, Aaron Rodgers probably would have crashed and burned here.

Franchise QB's dont crash & burn... He would have sat behind Brunell for a year or so maybe... Imagine Rodgers under Gibbs with that run game !

[MattFancy]

I think we should take a QB in the 1st next year and I wouldn't be opposed to trading up to get Luck or Jones. But, its a little early to be worried about this.

[-JB-]

Have you watched college football this year, or are you going by some internet polls you read before the season started? L. Jones is barely cracking the top 5 right now with Tannehill, Weeden, Barkley, Griffin and Luck all ahead

Did you watch the Oklahoma/FSU game ? Jones makes throws only Luck can make. If you think Jones would get drafted after all of those guys, especially Barkley, that's so laughable. There's a term I like to use when watching college QB's. Its called "NFL caliber"

[TD_washingtonredskins]

We are talking about the number 1 prospect since John Elway, whom many consider to be the best prospect ever. EVER!!!

This time last year...he was the best prospect since Bradford. A few months ago, he was the best prospect since Manning. Now, he's the best prospect since Elway or of ALL TIME. Wow.

[USS Redskins]

YES. The Skins had a good draft in 2011. They picked up several Free agents to fill many needs. I think they can do that again with success.

The Skins have to have a QB next year. Absolutely... if they dont get a QB somewhere they will be the mediocre team they have been for 20 seasons now.

Without a franchise QB they might get in the playoffs a few times here and there with the 5th or 6th seed but no championships.

[RichmondRedskin88]

Thing is I could see us picking like 14 or 15 possibly. I wonder if we could get our franchise QB by just sitting there.

[Champskins]

Did you watch the Oklahoma/FSU game ? Jones makes throws only Luck can make. If you think Jones would get drafted after all of those guys, especially Barkley, that's so laughable. There's a term I like to use when watching college QB's. Its called "NFL caliber"

Seasons early, he could very well be the number 2 or number 3 guy come draft time, He's competing with Barkley with right now. He's playing at a high level, but I need to see more of him and his arm strength. Weeden is playing lights out as is Griffin

[terpskins10]

Thing is I could see us picking like 14 or 15 possibly. I wonder if we could get our franchise QB by just sitting there.

We could. Or we could nab us another Ramsey or Campbell.

I'll take the sure thing. Whatever holes we have that people seem to want to fill BEFORE QB for some reason, a franchise QB goes a long way toward masking those holes. Ask Atlanta or Baltimore. Atlanta was in worse shape than we are now and they went to the playoffs in Ryan's rookie season.

[GibbsFactor]

This time last year...he was the best prospect since Bradford. A few months ago, he was the best prospect since Manning. Now, he's the best prospect since Elway or of ALL TIME. Wow.

He's always been ahead of Bradford and Manning from my recollection. People have consistently said he's the best prospect since Elway. It might help you to read and listen to scouts that have a good track record.

[NewEraofSkins08]

We could. Or we could nab us another Ramsey or Campbell.

I'll take the sure thing. Whatever holes we have that people seem to want to fill BEFORE QB for some reason, a franchise QB goes a long way toward masking those holes. Ask Atlanta or Baltimore. Atlanta was in worse shape than we are now and they went to the playoffs in Ryan's rookie season.

If Shanahan takes a QB in the 1st round...you betchya that QB is going to be a stud in his system. Remember though...QB is DEEP in this draft.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

He's always been ahead of Bradford and Manning from my recollection. People have consistently said he's the best prospect since Elway. It might help you to read and listen to scouts that have a good track record.

OK, I'm going off of what people on this board have posted since Luck became a hot topic. I guess we'll see. If Luck is the best QB since John Elway, then I guess you were right. If he's marginally better than some of the other very good young QBs in the league, it would have been pretty foolish to trade away two drafts to land him when one of the other prospects plus 12 or 13 other young players might have been a better haul, right?

[ConnSKINS26]

Franchise QB's dont crash & burn

Of course they do. Franchise QB's are partially created, and allowed to bloom into what they have the potential to become, because of situation/coaching/supporting cast/time to develop.

Rodgers was a VERY different player coming out of college than he is now. People would have scoffed then if you told them that in 4-5 years time, Aaron Rodgers would have the best deep ball in the NFL. They would have laughed at you. He needed to sit on the bench for three years like he did, behind a HOF QB, in a stable offense with a consistent, proficient FO. He wouldn't have gotten that here. He'd be a totally different player right now, I reckon. Better than Campbell, probably, but not the stud QB he is now. Most QB's are not just "plug and play", even the ones that have franchise QB caliber skills. Rodgers the super-star "Franchise QB", right now in his prime, is a culmination of MANY factors and advantages, none of which he would have had here.

Almost every QB prospect who succeeds and DOES become that rare, elusive franchise-caliber QB, has a similar story.

[Champskins]

Unfortunately for fellow Skins fans who watch Stanford and USC among others, teams like Denver, the Colts, The Dolphins, 49ers, and the Jaguars are going to be in position to grab the top 3 QBs. Elway's Broncos and the 49ers Coach will look to do this type of trade to get Luck who could still stay in school another year if the team he wants to go to is not in a position to get him in 2012.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 03:33 PM ----------

The way things are going the Skins might be Too Rexy to select Luck or a potential QB.

Colts will most likely have Manning back, dont see their front office going for a #1 QB
49ers will get Luck
Seahawks possibly get L. Jones
Denver's fan base would burn the stadium down if they used another first on a QB
Jaguars - see Denver above
Dolphins, eh, I see them as the veteran FA QB type...

There's still Barkley, Griffin, Weeden, Tannehill, Cousins, Lindley, Moore. etc.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Champ...

Plus, as you get deeper into the draft, it becomes cheaper to move up. Let's say we actually do exceed expectations and go 8-8 and we're picking 15th or 16th. If there is still a QB or two that Shanahan likes on the board at 10 or 11, that's a trade I'm certainly in favor of making. I just don't want him giving a blank check to the team with the #1 pick when the difference between Luck and whoever we might get in the middle of the first round is probably not worth the price of acquiring him.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Colts will most likely have Manning back, dont see their front office going for a #1 QB
49ers will get Luck
Seahawks possibly get L. Jones
Denver's fan base would burn the stadium down if they used another first on a QB
Jaguars - see Denver above
Dolphins, eh, I see them as the veteran FA QB type...

There's still Barkley, Griffin, Weeden, Tannehill, Cousins, Lindley, Moore. etc.

All those arguments change for Luck, though. Most of those teams take him if they're at #1. There are a few interesting questions if certain teams get the pick:
Jags or Vikings- Just picked a QB with a first, will they take another. Possibly, if it's Luck, but who can be sure?
Bengals- Only because they're such an insanely bad franchise, maybe they draft a K #1.
Colts- Gotta believe they take Luck, but maybe they decide Peyton is such an "icon" that they should trade the pick and build up the supporting cast for Manning's final couple of seasons.

[-JB-]

Of course they do. Franchise QB's are partially created, and allowed to bloom into what they have the potential to become, because of situation/coaching/supporting cast/time to develop.

Rodgers was a VERY different player coming out of college than he is now. People would have scoffed then if you told them that in 4-5 years time, Aaron Rodgers would have the best deep ball in the NFL. They would have laughed at you. He needed to sit on the bench for three years like he did, behind a HOF QB, in a stable offense with a consistent, proficient FO. He wouldn't have gotten that here. He'd be a totally different player right now, I reckon. Better than Campbell, probably, but not the stud QB he is now. Most QB's are not just "plug and play", even the ones that have franchise QB caliber skills. Rodgers the super-star "Franchise QB", right now in his prime, is a culmination of MANY factors and advantages, none of which he would have had here.

Almost every QB prospect who succeeds and DOES become that rare, elusive franchise-caliber QB, has a similar story.

Did you just say Rodgers "probably" would have been better than Campbell ? Wow lmao

[Enter Apotheosis]

Andrew Luck is the best QB prospect to enter the draft since Peyton Manning. You have to be kidding me. He's a sure thing. We won't get him anyway cause whoever gets the #1 pick will take him anyway. Like I said unless Rams get #1 pick.

More brilliant football minds than yourself were convinced that Ryan Leaf was at least as good of a prospect as Peyton in the 1998 NFL draft. Nothing is a sure thing.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

We're not even out of September.

Why are we arguing over prospective QB's 7 months ahead of time again?

Hail.

[Taylorfan2179]

or Fred Davis?
You are saying fred davis is a monster, worth a first round pick? after 2 good games and vanishing last night?

[Bobbyst21]

Do we need to draft a qb?absolutely....But even playing with the notion of trading all of our picks for 1 player is insane. Have we not learned anything from Vinny? We need more than just a QB to fix this sinking ship.

[Champskins]

Just an FYI - Mel Kiper (one of the biggest Draft Guru's - if you want to call him that) on JaMarcus Russell before he was taken #1


Three years from now you could certainly be looking at a guy who is certainly one of the elite top five quarterbacks in this league . . . Nobody has an arm like JaMarcus Russell. . .

Obviously, he'll need a little time. But you're talking about a 2-3-year period. Once he's under center, look out, because the skill level he has is certainly John Elway-like."

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 04:58 PM ----------


You are saying fred davis is a monster, worth a first round pick? after 2 good games and vanishing last night?

I was stating to your claim that "USC offensive players generally suck" and arguing that Fred Davis does not, in fact, suck... that is all. No TE is worthy of a first rounder

[Crazy Levi]

We're not even out of September.

Why are we arguing over prospective QB's 7 months ahead of time again?

Hail.

A surprising voice of sanity.

This entire conversation is ridiculous at this point in time.

[Rufus T Firefly]

More brilliant football minds than yourself were convinced that Ryan Leaf was at least as good of a prospect as Peyton in the 1998 NFL draft. Nothing is a sure thing.

Unfortunately, those football minds who thought that didn't do their homework on Leaf's personality. He had ridiculously high upside, but was a head case. Thinking that has any kind of bearing on what Luck will be is wrongheaded.

Technically, there is no such thing as a "sure thing", but Luck is as close to one as you'll see. The odd thing is people talk of being worried about drafting a bust, and then use that as an argument to not go get the guy with virtually no chance of being one.

[GibbsFactor]

OK, I'm going off of what people on this board have posted since Luck became a hot topic. I guess we'll see. If Luck is the best QB since John Elway, then I guess you were right. If he's marginally better than some of the other very good young QBs in the league, it would have been pretty foolish to trade away two drafts to land him when one of the other prospects plus 12 or 13 other young players might have been a better haul, right?

Sure, we can play that game all day.

There's only one game I want to play and that game ends with a bona fide starter for us. I clearly understand what sacrificing all these draft choices means. I also clearly understand that we need a QB some kind of bad. If we can get one of the top 3, whoever they end up being, I'll be satisfied.

Look, it is a bit foolish to trade away two drafts for one player. I think that a bunch of us are so damn tired of trotting out journeymen QBs that we'd go so far as to Ditka the draft this year for one.

[texasthunder]

Yea, great idea, give up all of our picks and then Luck gets hurt in training camp. Then where are we ?
At least three years of setback, that's where we are at.

There were some of us that wanted Gabbert, there were others that wanted to roll with Beck and or Grossman, we are in a situation where we have to get thru this year with Grossman or Beck.
Good or bad, that's the hand we are dealt.

[-JB-]

More brilliant football minds than yourself were convinced that Ryan Leaf was at least as good of a prospect as Peyton in the 1998 NFL draft. Nothing is a sure thing.

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.

[ConnSKINS26]

So if a Young Peyton Manning or John Elway was available but the scheme didn't fit the QB it would be okay to pass on him? Cam Newton didn't fit anyone's system but the Panthers did something extremely smart and adjusted their system to utilize his talents

Why does Cam Newton not fit "anyone's system"? You're talking out your ass, as if the Panther's created this innovative new offense. He can make every NFL throw. He just happens to also be huge and mobile. They aren't doing anything exceptionally different with him so far this year. In fact, they're throwing the ball A LOT. Which would seem to go against your misconceptions of what a team SHOULD do to mitigate the holes in his skill-set...which really aren't there, physically.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 05:05 PM ----------


Did you just say Rodgers "probably" would have been better than Campbell ? Wow lmao

This is what you picked out? Use your brain and respond to the meat of the post, or don't respond at all. In
the context of the rest of my point, this made sense.

Here it is:


Of course they do. Franchise QB's are partially created, and allowed to bloom into what they have the potential to become, because of situation/coaching/supporting cast/time to develop.

Rodgers was a VERY different player coming out of college than he is now. People would have scoffed then if you told them that in 4-5 years time, Aaron Rodgers would have the best deep ball in the NFL. They would have laughed at you. He needed to sit on the bench for three years like he did, behind a HOF QB, in a stable offense with a consistent, proficient FO. He wouldn't have gotten that here. He'd be a totally different player right now, I reckon. Better than Campbell, probably, but not the stud QB he is now. Most QB's are not just "plug and play", even the ones that have franchise QB caliber skills. Rodgers the super-star "Franchise QB", right now in his prime, is a culmination of MANY factors and advantages, none of which he would have had here.

Almost every QB prospect who succeeds and DOES become that rare, elusive franchise-caliber QB, has a similar story.

[GibbsFactor]

More brilliant football minds than yourself were convinced that Ryan Leaf was at least as good of a prospect as Peyton in the 1998 NFL draft. Nothing is a sure thing.

Actually, most scouts say since Elway. For those that may not recall, Elway is widely considered the best prospect of all time. He may not have been the best, but he is certainly a top 10 QB.

The thing with Leaf is a great example of what not to do moving forward. The choice for the Colts should have been simple. Take the kid raised in sports. Luck has been raised around sports. He knows what it takes to be a pro and that's what makes him much more sure hit than a Ryan Leaf who wasn't emotionally ready for what was given to him.

[ConnSKINS26]

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.

If Landry Jones is in the discussion, then Griffin certainly is.

[-JB-]

Why are we discussing this ? Because before the season you know Rex Grossman isn't the answer moving foward. He isn't a franchise QB. 2012 is going to be all about drafting the QB, trading up or whatever the hell it takes. I know the timing of this is funny right after the first loss. Its still rational to talk about drafting a franchise QB.

[GibbsFactor]

All those arguments change for Luck, though. Most of those teams take him if they're at #1. There are a few interesting questions if certain teams get the pick:
Jags or Vikings- Just picked a QB with a first, will they take another. Possibly, if it's Luck, but who can be sure?
Bengals- Only because they're such an insanely bad franchise, maybe they draft a K #1.
Colts- Gotta believe they take Luck, but maybe they decide Peyton is such an "icon" that they should trade the pick and build up the supporting cast for Manning's final couple of seasons.

I think the Colts, Jags, Bengals and Vikings would be swayed to trade because you are going to get a ****load for that #1 this year. Someone was saying DeSean and a first. I laughed at that. How bout two firsts, a second AND DeSean? that's going to be closer to the cost.

[-JB-]

If Landry Jones is in the discussion, then Griffin certainly is.

Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Why are we discussing this ? Because before the season you know Rex Grossman isn't the answer moving foward. He isn't a franchise QB. 2012 is going to be all about drafting the QB, trading up or whatever the hell it takes. I know the timing of this is funny right after the first loss. Its still rational to talk about drafting a franchise QB.

Meh, I'd save your fingers.

Any future QB's good work will all be undone at the hands of Danny Smith's unit anyway. ;)

Hail.

[Grizz]

I got 2 names for you

Ryan Leaf #2 overall
Aaron Rodgers #24 overall

Drafting a QB is a lot of "Luck"

[GWinSkins83]

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.

griffin is on that level.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 05:19 PM ----------


Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

In what why is Landry a better NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I can name plentiy of reason why Landry will fail in the NFL.

[Wildbunny]

The more I see that kind of thread the more I want to see Luck turn out being another Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.

[ConnSKINS26]

Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

...Are you unaware that TCU recently has had a top defense? Apparently not.

Have you actually watched any of these games?? I get the feeling that you haven't. Which makes your opinion absolutely worthless, because this isn't about looking at stats in a box score. Its about seeing them as prospects. Their mechanics, their footwork, their throwing motion, can they make the essential "NFL" throws, how is their ball placement. All of these things are more important than the stats or their competition. Watch both play and evaluate these things fairly, and then we'll talk. You sound pretty ignorant right now. Griffin isn't just having an excellent start to the season because he's putting up ridiculous numbers. He's having an excellent season because of what he's doing with the ball, things that you can evaluate. And Landry Jones has looked mediocre in comparison, in my opinion.

For someone who earlier used the phrase "NFL caliber", or something like it, you aren't representing yourself well in this thread.

Go spend some time in the 2012 Comprehensive Draft Database Thread.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 05:27 PM ----------


The more I see that kind of thread the more I want to see Luck turn out being another Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.

I don't. That's just some weird form of bitterness/jealousy. Something. Its good for the NFL if Luck turns out to be an excellent prospect. Just like its good for the NFL if Newton continues to succeed, no matter how you feel about him. As long as these types of prospects stay away from our rivals.

[Enter Apotheosis]

The Colts weren't convinced. Im not convinced there is another QB on Lucks level in this draft. Only Landry Jones is in the discussion. Lmao@somebody saying Weeden who's 27... & Matt Barkley is not Landry Jones.
Landry Jones is clearly a more NFL caliber QB than Griffin. I'll end it with that. He's not in the discussion. Do you think Griffin puts up those #'s vs legit teams ? TCU, Stephen F. Austin & Rice ! Lmao

It's cool if you hold strong opinions and fancy yourself a good judge of prospective NFL talents but being a little more willing to acknowledge the limits of what you know would go a long way towards giving yourself some credibility.

[ConnSKINS26]

It's cool if you hold strong opinions and fancy yourself a good judge of prospective NFL talents but being a little more willing to acknowledge the limits of what you know would go a long way towards giving yourself some credibility.

Agreed. Ending every post with a derisive "lmao" is a slap in the face to anyone trying to hold a real discussion, as well. JB, you can disagree with others, and debate, without acting like a prick.

[Rpredskins]

Of course it still remains to be seen if luck is the next peyton manning. but if he is, he is worth any amount of picks. Hell, if you cloned manning and sent him through the draft all over again, i would happily give up 4 first round picks for him.
At this point I'd be fine with 2 firsts and a second and maybe a 3rd for the #1 pick. Also depends a lot of which pick we have and who the #1 pick is. If that team needs a QB, they're taking him

[ConnSKINS26]

Of course it still remains to be seen if luck is the next peyton manning. but if he is, he is worth any amount of picks. Hell, if you cloned manning and sent him through the draft all over again, i would happily give up 4 first round picks for him.
At this point I'd be fine with 2 firsts and a second and maybe a 3rd for the #1 pick. Also depends a lot of which pick we have and who the #1 pick is. If that team needs a QB, they're taking him

I think the front-runners right now are SEA, KC, and MIA.

I'd hate to see him in any of those places, except maybe MIA with a new head coach. Sporano probably won't make it till week 12 anyways.

I still wouldn't trade the house to prevent that and to get him to come here, though.

[-JB-]

If you think RG3 is going to be drafted before Landry Jones you've lost your mind. How can you "preach" to me about all of the intangibles that QB's must exhibit like great footwork in the pocket, ability to read the defense, touch, the ability to have accuracy down the field & then throw RG3 into the discussion solely because of his ridiculous stats through 3 games vs very suspect defenses. Have YOU seen Landry Jones play against very strong NFL style defenses like Florida St. ? Making throws no other QB in college could make moving in the pocket, down the field in tight coverage ? Really ? You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones. Period. Give me a break with your lecture.

[GibbsFactor]

I'd be more than willing to part with the teams next two first and second round picks for the shot at number one if things stay as they are right now.

[AsburySkinsFan]

***massive signature***
You will want to adjust the size of your signature to be in line with the TOS.

[GWinSkins83]

I think JB hasn't watched a lick of film. Because if he is discounting RG3 because of his opponents than I know he has not seen the ball placements of those balls. I don't care if Revis was the CB in those games he would have got beat with those throws.

[ConnSKINS26]

I think JB hasn't watched a lick of film. Because if he is discounting RG3 because of his opponents than I know he has not seen the ball placements of those balls. I don't care if Revis was the CB in those games he would have got beat with those throws.

Exactly what I'm thinking. He hasn't said a single thing to make me think he's actually seen Baylor play this year, at all.

[Painkiller]

The more I see that kind of thread the more I want to see Luck turn out being another Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell.

Me to. As I have said before, I already hate the guy and it's not his fault.

[ConnSKINS26]

If you think RG3 is going to be drafted before Landry Jones you've lost your mind.

You can throw out sensationalist posts like this all you want, but its not how you make a point. Why am I out of my mind if I think this? Why are you NOT out of your mind for having the opposite opinion? Learn how to hold a discussion. Tell me what you see in Jones that you don't see in Griffin. After you watch Griffin, of course. I'm still waiting on that to happen.


How can you "preach" to me about all of the intangibles that QB's must exhibit...

Didn't say anything about intangibles, although he has those in spades as well. The things you describe next are all tangibles...making me think you don't know what the hell words you're using.



...like great footwork in the pocket, ability to read the defense, touch, the ability to have accuracy down the field & then throw RG3 into the discussion solely because of his ridiculous stats through 3 games vs very suspect defenses.

Can you read? If you could, you'd have seen my posts detailing the fact that this has NOTHING to do with his stats, or his competition. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY said the opposite. Here you go:


Its about seeing them as prospects. Their mechanics, their footwork, their throwing motion, can they make the essential "NFL" throws, how is their ball placement. All of these things are more important than the stats or their competition.

That's what I said. Yet you attributed the exact opposite argument to me. Get your **** together, man, if we're going to have this discussion.

If you watch Griffin actually play, hell, watch a highlight video, you'll see him making NFL throws with velocity and accuracy, and placing the ball perfectly, with a pretty clean throwing motion. Those are things that can be evaluated no matter the stats, scheme, or competition. I don't think you know how to evaluate a prospect at all. We're all amateurs. But at least try to be unbiased and put in some work to form your opinion, rather than vomiting all of this crap all over my screen.


Making throws no other QB in college could make moving in the pocket, down the field in tight coverage ? Really ? You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones.

I don't agree with this either, at all. I don't think he makes good decisions on any kind of consistent basis, and I think his arm is rather overrated. He's going to be entering the NFL draft, and he STILL throws into triple coverage and stares down his receivers constantly.

Edit: I'd also like to make a formal request that you learn how to use the "multi-quote" feature of this board, so that you can respond to points individually. This helps to cut down on misunderstandings, and makes the discussion flow much better. When you throw up a single huge paragraph every time, and don't break down individual points, you're not doing the discussion justice.

[GWinSkins83]

If you think RG3 is going to be drafted before Landry Jones you've lost your mind. How can you "preach" to me about all of the intangibles that QB's must exhibit like great footwork in the pocket, ability to read the defense, touch, the ability to have accuracy down the field & then throw RG3 into the discussion solely because of his ridiculous stats through 3 games vs very suspect defenses. Have YOU seen Landry Jones play against very strong NFL style defenses like Florida St. ? Making throws no other QB in college could make moving in the pocket, down the field in tight coverage ? Really ? You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones. Period. Give me a break with your lecture.

The intangibles that you brought up is exactly the things RG3 is doing great right now. Its not that he is throwing 5 tds but like Trent Dilfter would say is he is thowing straight DIMES. He throw anticapation throws at a high level. He reads defense just as good as Jones if not better. RG3 accuracy down field is way better than Jone's this year. Evidently you haven't seen Griffin this year seem you been under a rock. Your argument here hold no weight right now because Griffin looks like the superior QB out of the two. Oh and Jones have a Rex Grossman problem with not handling pressure well. He makes bad reads and throw passes that should not have been thrown.

[dallasfan]

...Are you unaware that TCU recently has had a top defense? Apparently not.

Couple of things, last year TCU had the #1 total defense in yards per game (228.5 ypg), this year they are ranked 84th (397.3 ypg), so I wouldn't consider them a top defense now. Also, Rober Griffen is going to benefit a lot in people's minds, due to the success of Cam Newton. Just like, right or wrong, people compared Newton to JaMarcus Russell and Vince Young, people are going to look at Griffen and believe his skill set can transfer to the NFL, just like Cam Newton and I think these people are wrong.

Cam Newton is 6'5 (was listed at 6'6 in college) and has prototypical NFL size. Robert Griffen is listed at 6'2, which likely means he's 6'1 or shorter, which would mean he's among the shortest NFL QBs. Both Newton and Griffen played in a similar spread system, but I really think Griffen is going to struggle in a pro style offense due to his infamiliarity as well as his height.

[ConnSKINS26]

Cam Newton is 6'5 (was listed at 6'6 in college) and has prototypical NFL size. Robert Griffen is listed at 6'2, which likely means he's 6'1 or shorter, which would mean he's among the shortest NFL QBs. Both Newton and Griffen played in a similar spread system, but I really think Griffen is going to struggle in a pro style offense due to his infamiliarity as well as his height.

This is all well and good, but I'm not personally comparing Griffin to Newton. Just because he's another passer who also happens to be athletic, doesn't mean they are very similar prospects.

The other thing with Griffin is that the guy has been taking snaps at QB for 4 years (with one of them lost to injury, basically). Its a spread offense,but he's got a huge amount of experience leading an offense. Guys like Newton and Bradford are proving that spread QB's can pick up NFL offenses quickly. I don't necessarily worry about that anymore with many prospects, especially since I'm not drafting a franchise QB to start day one unless he earns it anyways. But if anyone can make the transition, its Griffin, mentally. The guy's already going to earn his Master's by this spring, and apparently if he doesn't declare, and finishes out his eligibility, he's going to be a Law student his final year. The kids intelligent, to go along with everything else.

[DCranon21]

One word....


NO

[RichmondRedskin88]

This thread makes me understand those who always say no to drafting QBs every year here. Even in safe QB draft class people have something bad to say about each one. Minus the Ultimately Luck apparently.

[-JB-]

Name a single NFL scout that would rank Griffin ahead of Jones. Im talking about one single guy who would rank Griffin, who is relatively small for an NFL QB, hasn't played a single legit D this season, and is clearly a system QB thriving against awful defenses. I won't argue this anymore because its ridiculous to grade Griffin anywhere near Jones. To even contemplate coming out of your mouth that he's neck & neck with Andrew Luck is absolutely asinine. Ridiculous.

[darrelgreenie]

You're comparing a system QB who has ability but not on the same level at all whatsoever as guys like Luck/Jones. Period.
I don't understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that Luck and Jones are good prospects (1st round types) but that Griffin isn't?
and/or are you saying that Griffin doesn't have the same 'ability' as Luck/Jones?

If so how would you describe the abilities of Luck, Jones and Griffin?

[ConnSKINS26]

Name a single NFL scout that would rank Griffin ahead of Jones. Im talking about one single guy who would rank Griffin, who is relatively small for an NFL QB, hasn't played a single legit D this season, and is clearly a system QB thriving against awful defenses. I won't argue this anymore because its ridiculous to grade Griffin anywhere near Jones. To even contemplate coming out of your mouth that he's neck & neck with Andrew Luck is absolutely asinine. Ridiculous.

This conversation is done until you can do two things:

1. Actually reference what you see from each player when they play, in comparing and contrasting them. As in, their physical skill-sets. Your posts in this thread are bush league. I take back what I said earlier--please stay the hell out of the 2012 Comprehensive Draft Database Thread. You'll just pollute it.

2. Learn to use the multi-quote feature so that you are actually responding to individual points being made. Because you seem to have a tough time understanding what's actually being said to you, and what it means. Notice how I broke up your post on the last page and responded to each individual point? People aren't going to bother responding to your blather if you don't do them a similar courtesy, and at least attempt to have a rational conversation that actually addresses points being made against your own, apparently infallible, opinion.

You are dead-set on parroting what you already "know" about these players as the truth. You are biased, and I suspect you've seen very little of Baylor in action. Why would I care if a scout , or a professional draftnik, would rank Griffin ahead of Jones right now? Use your eyes, and evaluate their skill-sets yourself, as QB prospects. Why do you need a ranking, or a stat sheet, to do that?

When you can do that, explain what you see in an unbiased manner, and communicate in a way more conducive to discussion, we'll talk.

[GWinSkins83]

Name a single NFL scout that would rank Griffin ahead of Jones. Im talking about one single guy who would rank Griffin, who is relatively small for an NFL QB, hasn't played a single legit D this season, and is clearly a system QB thriving against awful defenses. I won't argue this anymore because its ridiculous to grade Griffin anywhere near Jones. To even contemplate coming out of your mouth that he's neck & neck with Andrew Luck is absolutely asinine. Ridiculous.

Griffin is 6'2" thats not small. Next most scouts have him coming out 2013. Another thing is most scouts on websites are MEDIA. We don't know what NFL team scouts are saying nor thinking only media scouts. But anyway why let someone speak and think for you. Thats a little ignorant to come to a conclusion when you can go and watch film and make your own opinion.

[ConnSKINS26]

I don't understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that Luck and Jones are good prospects (1st round types) but that Griffin isn't?
and/or are you saying that Griffin doesn't have the same 'ability' as Luck/Jones?

If so how would you describe the abilities of Luck, Jones and Griffin?

He can't describe or debate any of their physical skill-sets. He has his opinion, it seems.

[Prototype]

I would use our top pick on the best corner available....

[GWinSkins83]

I would use our top pick on the best corner available....

I wouldn't we lost that game we dont have a QB that can exploit a weak secondary. That is where we lost the game. Not the defense even though I think that we should get a corner in the first 3 rounds of next year draft. But I just think if we had a good QB we probably win by 11 pts.

[dallasfan]

Griffin is 6'2" thats not small. Next most scouts have him coming out 2013. Another thing is most scouts on websites are MEDIA. We don't know what NFL team scouts are saying nor thinking only media scouts. But anyway why let someone speak and think for you. Thats a little ignorant to come to a conclusion when you can go and watch film and make your own opinion.

6'2 is really the minimum height you want in a QB. Drew Brees and Mike Vick at 6'0 are really the exception, not the rule. Most successful NFL QBs fall in the 6'2 to 6'5 range and most college players measure in, atleast an inch shorter than their college height. Andrew Luck, Ryan Tannehill and Landry Jones are listed at 6'4, so they should atleast clear 6'2. Matt Barkley and Robert Griffen's draft stock is gonna be influenced big time by the height measurements. If they are a legit 6'2, then no big deal, but if these guys are 6 foot even, then there gonna take a huge hit.

[-JB-]

I don't understand what you're saying.
Are you saying that Luck and Jones are good prospects (1st round types) but that Griffin isn't?
and/or are you saying that Griffin doesn't have the same 'ability' as Luck/Jones?

If so how would you describe the abilities of Luck, Jones and Griffin?

I am saying he doesn't have Andrew Luck/Landry Jones ability & that he's not a 1st round talent. Yes. Griffin has good mobility & is accurate but has never called plays/pre-snap reads & has inadequate height/wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses. I cant believe you're comparing him to the likes of NFL style QB's like Jones/Luck who can make all the throws/big bodies, great pocket presence, have proven they can make plays vs college NFL style defenses... Its simple to me who are clearly the top two QB prospects this year. Griffin won't even come out early will he ? Eh, he could be picked earlier than the 2nd if a team takes a flier on him..
He's just not Andrew Luck who's a franchise changing QB with amazing overall ability in the pocket to make every throw & has the prototypical build... Landry Jones has a great arm. Reminds me of Phillip Rivers, has a great NFL body, pocket presence, ability to make throws moving in the pocket & has succeeded vs NFL style defenses burning teams with very accurate down the field throws. I understand if you're a college fan & are enamored with Griffin's accuracy, ability to run/throw & put up huge #'s but you have to take that with a grain of salt considering he doesn't call plays & is a spread offense guy who has played weak defenses weak in and weak out.
. Im not saying I dont like the guy. He just simply won't be an NFL franchise caliber QB. Comparing him to Newton is foolish & it typical compare a black QB to another black QB just like every good white NBA player would be compared to Bird. Cam Newton is the real deal. Look what he accomplished in the SEC. He was a no brainer top selection & has great size, mobility, ability to read defenses.

[GWinSkins83]

6'2 is really the minimum height you want in a QB. Drew Brees and Mike Vick at 6'0 are really the exception, not the rule. Most successful NFL QBs fall in the 6'2 to 6'5 range and most college players measure in, atleast an inch shorter than their college height. Andrew Luck, Ryan Tannehill and Landry Jones are listed at 6'4, so they should atleast clear 6'2. Matt Barkley and Robert Griffen's draft stock is gonna be influenced big time by the height measurements. If they are a legit 6'2, then no big deal, but if these guys are 6 foot even, then there gonna take a huge hit.

Griffin looks that 6'2" I doubt his height would lower his stock.

[-JB-]

I gave you my analysis. You dont have to agree. Just dont insult my ability to watch football & gauge talent.

[GWinSkins83]

I am saying he doesn't have Andrew Luck/Landry Jones ability & that he's not a 1st round talent. Yes. Griffin has good mobility & is accurate but has never called plays/pre-snap reads & has inadequate height/wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses. I cant believe you're comparing him to the likes of NFL style QB's like Jones/Luck who can make all the throws/big bodies, great pocket presence, have proven they can make plays vs college NFL style defenses... Its simple to me who are clearly the top two QB prospects this year. Griffin won't even come out early will he ? Eh, he could be picked earlier than the 2nd if a team takes a flier on him..
He's just not Andrew Luck who's a franchise changing QB with amazing overall ability in the pocket to make every throw & has the prototypical build... Landry Jones has a great arm. Reminds me of Phillip Rivers, has a great NFL body, pocket presence, ability to make throws moving in the pocket & has succeeded vs NFL style defenses burning teams with very accurate down the field throws. I understand if you're a college fan & are enamored with Griffin's accuracy, ability to run/throw & put up huge #'s but you have to take that with a grain of salt considering he doesn't call plays & is a spread offense guy who has played weak defenses weak in and weak out.
. Im not saying I dont like the guy. He just simply won't be an NFL franchise caliber QB. Comparing him to Newton is foolish & it typical compare a black QB to another black QB just like every good white NBA player would be compared to Bird. Cam Newton is the real deal. Look what he accomplished in the SEC. He was a no brainer top selection & has great size, mobility, ability to read defenses.
For one Jones don't make pre snap reads. The coaches do that. I really starting to think that you haven't even watched Jones play let alone Griffin. Jones run a spread offense and Jones also STRUGGLES against good defenses with elite talent around him. Jones has one of the best WR in the country, Kenny Stills was freshman All-American. Has one of the best offensive lines in the country. He has it easier but he still does not play at a level like Griffin. Griffin has great pocket awareness and resets his feet better than Jones do. Plus Jones does not handle pressure well. He is a disaster when he gets pressured. He is Rex Grossman vs pressure. Atleast Griffin can move around and I havent seen him when pressure try and force passes where it can hurt his team.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

-JB-, for someone in his first month, you sure do have a nifty knack of losing folk with your manner.

I'd check that if I was you going forward.

Hail.

[ConnSKINS26]

I gave you my analysis. You dont have to agree. Just dont insult my ability to watch football & gauge talent.

To be fair, I wasn't "insulting" your ability to watch football. I was "insulting" your ability to communicate what you see out of these players effectively to others, and your ability to use the multi-quote feature to properly respond to in-depth posts.

And by that I mean that I suggested that you improve there, to help discussion in the future.

[darrelgreenie]

I am saying he doesn't have Andrew Luck/Landry Jones ability & that he's not a 1st round talent. Yes. Griffin has good mobility & is accurate but has never called plays/pre-snap reads & has inadequate height/wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses.
So you're 'knocks' against Griffin are: his college offense and his perceived lack of height?
I think the spread/system ding is vastly overblown in both the media and in the draftnik community, its as overblown as a prospect being more 'pro ready'.
Flacco, Bradford, Colt McCoy, Cam Newton and Blaine Gabbert all came from spread offenses.
Jimmy Clausen was considered the most 'pro ready' draft prospect in his class.

This is not a legitmate ding:
wont be able to run in NFL against real pro defenses
Unless you can predict the future you can't/shouldn't make claims like that.
Every college QB prospect faces the same question about their ability to operate an NFL offense against an NFL defense.

Griffin is listed at 6'2 but I guess his height will be a question until the combine.



I cant believe you're comparing him to the likes of NFL style QB's like Jones/Luck who can make all the throws/big bodies, great pocket presence, have proven they can make plays vs college NFL style defenses.Who should we compare a college QB prospect with except other college QB prospects?

You're finally getting into some skillset with the bolded portion of your post.
Are you saying that Griffin can't makes all the throws, and lacks pocket presence?

Griffin can only play against the teams on his schedule.


Eh, he could be picked earlier than the 2nd if a team takes a flier on himAre you back pedalling?


He's just not Andrew Luck who's a franchise changing QB with amazing overall ability in the pocket to make every throw & has the prototypical build... Landry Jones has a great arm.......I understand if you're a college fan & are enamored with Griffin's accuracy, ability to run/throw & put up huge #'s but you have to take that with a grain of salt considering he doesn't call plays & is a spread offense guy who has played weak defenses weak in and weak out.
Why should we take his skillset with a grain of salt? Accuracy is accuracy, the ability to run and throw are individual skills independent of the team/system.

Are you sure that Landry calls plays? I recall seeing plenty of OU plays come in from the sideline.

You're basically repeating the same things you mentioned earlier.


Cam Newton is the real deal. Look what he accomplished in the SEC. He was a no brainer top selection & has great size, mobility, ability to read defenses.I didn't make the comparison to Newton but from a physical skillset standpoint there are some similarities there between Newton, Locker and Luck, Griffin.
All 4 QBs are playmakers that can make plays with their feet and arms.
But, lets not have revisionist history Cam has proven his ability to read defenses but it was very much a question mark during the draft process.
But, evaluators aren't drafting the QBs system or scheme.
They're drafting a QBs skillset.

[The Bounty Hunter #21]

I think it's a given that Rex is a stop gap QB for our franchise but to trade away the house just to get Luck when we do have other needs to fill just sounds irresponsible and Cerrato like.

[dallasfan]

Griffin looks that 6'2" I doubt his height would lower his stock.

whether it's right or wrong, height or lack ther of, does lower a guys stock. And we'll have to just disagree about Griffen's height. Not too many people can tell the difference between 6'0, 6'1 and 6'2 on TV, but almost all college heights are fudged by an inch or more.

[Darc Requiem]

Trading all of our picks for the number one pick would be insane....well unless you were Mike Ditka.

[ConnSKINS26]

whether it's right or wrong, height or lack ther of, does lower a guys stock. And we'll have to just disagree about Griffen's height. Not too many people can tell the difference between 6'0, 6'1 and 6'2 on TV, but almost all college heights are fudged by an inch or more.

I wish some type of standardized process would be developed to stop this. There's no point to it. The NFL Combine's measurements shouldn't be such a "hold-your-breath-and-wait" experience. Obviously weights fluctuate between the end of the season and the Combine, but teams can usually see around that (except with Maybin :ols:). But heights? We should have an exact, definite height of every player in CFB at the beginning of every season. Its inexcusable that teams are still allowed to put whatever fudged numbers they want on their websites, etc.

[skinfan2k]

When will you learn. do you think Luck will be better than 7 players and another player in 13. I beat we do our draft due diligence, we don't need luck.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I wish some type of standardized process would be developed to stop this. There's no point to it. The NFL Combine's measurements shouldn't be such a "hold-your-breath-and-wait" experience. Obviously weights fluctuate between the end of the season and the Combine, but teams can usually see around that (except with Maybin :ols:). But heights? We should have an exact, definite height of every player in CFB at the beginning of every season. Its inexcusable that teams are still allowed to put whatever fudged numbers they want on their websites, etc.

It also does a disservice to prospects, imo. For example, if Griffin is 6' even (for argument's sake), then I think scouts would be able to watch him for 4 years and grade him accordingly. And I think they would look at his ability to play in spite of that height. But, if they think he's 6'2 and then find out he's 6 even at the combine, I think it ends up dropping him a lot lower than he would have otherwise been.

[ConnSKINS26]

It also does a disservice to prospects, imo. For example, if Griffin is 6' even (for argument's sake), then I think scouts would be able to watch him for 4 years and grade him accordingly. And I think they would look at his ability to play in spite of that height. But, if they think he's 6'2 and then find out he's 6 even at the combine, I think it ends up dropping him a lot lower than he would have otherwise been.

Very true, because there's no time to adjust your thought-process. Instead of having four years to win you over in spite of his height, he's now got a couple of months of trash-talk about his height, because it was dropped on everyone as a surprise. It then overshadows his skill-set.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Very true, because there's no time to adjust your thought-process. Instead of having four years to win you over in spite of his height, he's now got a couple of months of trash-talk about his height, because it was dropped on everyone as a surprise. It then overshadows his skill-set.

Yeah, that's basically a much better written version of what I was trying to say.

[GibbsFactor]

RG3 is going to win the Heisman this year. In a blow out.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

Ryan Fitzpatrick's contract is up this year.... ;)

[darrelgreenie]

Very true, because there's no time to adjust your thought-process. Instead of having four years to win you over in spite of his height, he's now got a couple of months of trash-talk about his height, because it was dropped on everyone as a surprise. It then overshadows his skill-set.You might be right.
But then I thought of Mike Vick, but then again he could be the exception to the rule.

Vick was/is 6' standing on his tippies.
But he had the skillset to go number 1; height didn't stop him.
But then again Mike's skillset was pretty much undeniable even if you only saw him play once.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 08:06 PM ----------


Ryan Fitzpatrick's contract is up this year.... ;)But I though you had to take a QB high in the 1st round to get a QB?
Fitzpatrick isn't good its an illusion.

[Fight4RGIII]

Let me see RGIII against a real pass defense before I jump on this bandwagon, but I like what I see so far. Looks to be able to run the WCO with a bit of ease.

[dallasfan]

RG3 is going to win the Heisman this year. In a blow out.

no he won't

Here are the last 20 heisman winners:

Cam Newton (10'), Mark Ingram (09'), Sam Bradford (08'), Tim Tebow (07'), Troy Smith (06'), Reggie Bush (05'), Matt Lienart (04'), Jason White (03'), Carson Palmer (02'), Eric Crouch (01'), Chris Wienke (00'), Ron Dayne (99'), Ricky Williams (98'), Charles Woodson (97'), Danny Wuerffel (96'), Eddie George (95'), Rashad Salaam (94'), Charlie Ward (93'), Gino Torreta (92') and Desmond Howard (91').

Looking at the list, 14 of the winners either won the national championship or played in the national championship game.

Ricky Williams and Ron Dayne won because they set the NCAA all time rushing mark (Ricky in 98', Dayne in 99), and Eddie George and Rashad Salaam were on 1 loss teams (Ohio State lost their bowl game, but had 1 loss when it was awarded).

Carson Palmer (2 losses when awarded) and Tim Tebow (3 losses when awarded) are the only 2 players within the last 20 years to win the award w/o being on a dominant team, so at minimum, Baylor would have to be 9-3 for Griffen to win it and even then it would be close.

[GWinSkins83]

Let me see RGIII against a real pass defense before I jump on this bandwagon, but I like what I see so far. Looks to be able to run the WCO with a bit of ease.

He did last year vs Texas. Which had 3 cbs drafted.

[dallasfan]

You might be right.
But then I thought of Mike Vick, but then again he could be the exception to the rule.

Vick was/is 6' standing on his tippies.
But he had the skillset to go number 1; height didn't stop him.
But then again Mike's skillset was pretty much undeniable even if you only saw him play once.[COLOR="Gold"]


Mike Vick is definately the exception, not the rule, and while RG III is a great athlete, he's not in the same class as Vick. Another exception is the QB taken with the first pick in the second round, the same year as Vick, Drew Brees. He's 6'0, but he also imo, is the most accurate QB in the league.

[mistertim]

When will you learn. do you think Luck will be better than 7 players and another player in 13. I beat we do our draft due diligence, we don't need luck.

If Luck ends up being as good as many people think he will be (certainly not a foregone conclusion, but he definitely is one of the better prospects to ever come out it seems) then yes, IMO he would be better than those 7 players unless you get insanely lucky and end up with 3 or 4 perennial All Pro players with those 7 picks. Sorry but you just can't downplay the importance of having a top flight QB in this league.

[GWinSkins83]

Mike Vick is definately the exception, not the rule, and while RG III is a great athlete, he's not in the same class as Vick. Another exception is the QB taken with the first pick in the second round, the same year as Vick, Drew Brees. He's 6'0, but he also imo, is the most accurate QB in the league.
You can try and put RG3 down with the height but we don't know he is shorter than listed. And one can look and see he is not as short as Vick. Next RG3 has talent that can make him a star in the NFL. He is mobile, playmaker, and has a arm. He can absolutely dominate the NFL under Mike and Kyle and their system.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Sure, we can play that game all day.

There's only one game I want to play and that game ends with a bona fide starter for us. I clearly understand what sacrificing all these draft choices means. I also clearly understand that we need a QB some kind of bad. If we can get one of the top 3, whoever they end up being, I'll be satisfied.

Look, it is a bit foolish to trade away two drafts for one player. I think that a bunch of us are so damn tired of trotting out journeymen QBs that we'd go so far as to Ditka the draft this year for one.

I understand the emotion and am equally starved for a reliable, young QB. But there is a reason that emotional and reactionary personnel decisions don't typically end up well.

[darrelgreenie]

Mike Vick is definately the exception, not the rule, and while RG III is a great athlete, he's not in the same class as Vick. Another exception is the QB taken with the first pick in the second round, the same year as Vick, Drew Brees. He's 6'0, but he also imo, is the most accurate QB in the league.I'm not saying that Griffin is in the same class as Vick.
Brees wasn't consider to have top level accuracy when he was prospect and his physical talent isn't in the same league as Griffin.

---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 09:26 PM ----------


If Luck ends up being as good as many people think he will be (certainly not a foregone conclusion, but he definitely is one of the better prospects to ever come out it seems) then yes, IMO he would be better than those 7 players unless you get insanely lucky and end up with 3 or 4 perennial All Pro players with those 7 picks. Sorry but you just can't downplay the importance of having a top flight QB in this league.Disagree.

The draft is as much about probability as it is about evaluation.
Anytime you pass give away a pick you give away the chance to acquire a great player.
1 pick cannot be greater then multiple picks.

Case in point trading up: the Jets traded up to get Sanchez but don't you think they would have been better off drafting Freeman and keeping the picks they traded?

Luck is a good prospect but there will be other QBs there might even be better QBs in his draft class.
When you think about what is Luck's bankable physical attribute that sets him apart?

It doesn't make sense to trade picks for Luck or anyother draft pick unless you believe in that player is all you need to win the Super Bowl.

[butzskins]

Vick? Where is he now he is hurt an will continue to be he is a running back with a strong arm not a pocket passer.He is a run first QB and we all see wh what that gets you int the NFL. HURT.

[dallasfan]

I'm not saying that Griffin is in the same class as Vick.

I know you weren't, just was pointing out the type of athleticism needed for a QB that size to succeed.


Brees wasn't consider to have top level accuracy when he was prospect and his physical talent isn't in the same league as Griffin.[COLOR="Gold"]


Yeah, but Brees was a second round pick and really struggled until his 4th season, and appeared to be a bust

[skinsince72]

Why? So we can get JC again?

[tdigle]

Some of you are swaying me towards RGIII. Not to get off topic here, but it would be absolutely amazing if we could nab both him and Manti Te'o in next year's draft. Then, looking at 2013, we need to go for the best CB available.

[paloosa]

What a dumb thread. Three games, Grossman had a bad game as did the rest of the offense and now someone decides that we need to throw in all of our eggs into one basket for some college QB that may or may not be the answer. Andrew Luck is not the answer to what ails this team but rather a lack of execution. So what if we do that? What next? Play him right away? Let Grossman or someone else play a year while he rides the bench and learns? We will have to start him right away because we invested so heavily in him. But maybe we just don't listen to another illogical idea that will set back the franchise even more. Hell with this suggestion we might as well hire Mike Ditka or even our old friend Vinny Cerrato because only an idiot like that would make that move.

[The Fax]

Absoluteley yes. QB is the most important position on the team. With an elite QB you have a chance every game, every year. Andrew Luck is a future Hall of Famer.

[ConnSKINS26]

You might be right.
But then I thought of Mike Vick, but then again he could be the exception to the rule.

Vick was/is 6' standing on his tippies.
But he had the skillset to go number 1; height didn't stop him.
But then again Mike's skillset was pretty much undeniable even if you only saw him play once.

You may very well be right. But before the draft process, was it known that he was 6'0" at the most, or was he listed as taller? That's really what we were talking about.

[tr1]

Hoping for the #1 pick encourages a losing mentality.

I'd prefer to have the last pick in the first round.

[Rdskns2000]

I posted the poll as a response to comments made by others in SHF's thread. If you read my post later down on page one; I said I was against this. I voted no. Just posting the poll for discussion.

[Taylorfan2179]

Just an FYI - Mel Kiper (one of the biggest Draft Guru's - if you want to call him that) on JaMarcus Russell before he was taken #1



---------- Post added September-27th-2011 at 04:58 PM ----------



I was stating to your claim that "USC offensive players generally suck" and arguing that Fred Davis does not, in fact, suck... that is all. No TE is worthy of a first rounder
Considering he has had 3 good games in what 3 years? I'm saying generally speaking, I have not been impressed with any offensive player out of USC with 2 exceptions. Carson Palmer and Marcus Allen. that is a very long span of nothing. I may be wrong, but thats all that comes to my mind. I'm not spot on with college to pro so maybe Im missing a lot.

[Rdskns2000]

I don´t like trading up unless you are already in the playoffs and you are really one player away from the SB (Like Atlanta did)....but I´m not that much ´in love´ with Luck. I even start to think that he might get a little hyped up. Sure he is good, but Manning like? People are talking about him like he is going to come out and just be one of the top QB's in this league. Really?

So I say noooooooooooh.

Atlanta made a mistake, They aren't one player away from a superbowl. Actually, Atlanta has never had back to back playoff seasons. They are going to be one of the biggest disappointments of 2011.

---------- Post added September-28th-2011 at 12:34 AM ----------


All those arguments change for Luck, though. Most of those teams take him if they're at #1. There are a few interesting questions if certain teams get the pick:
Jags or Vikings- Just picked a QB with a first, will they take another. Possibly, if it's Luck, but who can be sure?
Bengals- Only because they're such an insanely bad franchise, maybe they draft a K #1.
Colts- Gotta believe they take Luck, but maybe they decide Peyton is such an "icon" that they should trade the pick and build up the supporting cast for Manning's final couple of seasons.

If I were the Colts, I would find a way to trade Manning. Don't know if his contract makes it's possible. They could tell Peyton, that the Colts have decide it's time to move on and they will trade him somewhere of his choosing where he can finish his career. QBs, even ones with successful careers don't always stay with the same team at the end of their careers.

[Gurgeh]

The problem for the Colts has always been that no-one who's any good wanted to be the backup to Manning, because they'd never get a game. If they do draft Luck then you might not see Luck play for years. My guess would be they'd keep him on the bench for at least 2 years and then try to trade Manning. The Colts might be better off waiting 2 years for the next QB and using the time to address, well, everything else in their team; the drop-off in performance without Manning has shown just how good a QB he's been - makes you wonder what Manning's stats would be if he'd ended up with the Patriots for example.

Rather than focusing on the one player for a future QB I think we just need to focus on getting the best QB we can without sacraficing too much - maybe the top two picks in 2012, plus some pick from the following year. A top 5 QB surrounded by a good team will do a lot better than the number 1 QB forced to carry his squad.

[Water Boy]

Im about 100% sure that if the rams was to get the 1st overall pick, they would trade out of it. They already have sam bradford, why would they take luck?!! If it WAS the rams, than you make one heckuva deal and see if you can land it. If the shanaplan is to get him by every means necessary, ill be on board. Even if i dont think it was necessarily necessary.

Agree totally. If the Skins fans want to get back to the glory days in these days it starts with a Franchise QB. The days of picking up retread QB's are over.

[XEL]

Honestly I'm split. We've got a great defense but may need to start grooming a MLB, pending on how long Fletcher plays. Offensively, the line is holding it's own, we have a good receiving corps and a great running back trio. I prefer to keep the picks and have Shanahan work his find-players-late-magic. BUT, talent like Luck just doesn't come around very often. He's been called the best QB prospect in over 25 years and personally, I believe that when his NFL career ends, he'll be above Peyton Manning.

[bird_1972]

I still fail to see how trading the house for ONE PLAYER is a smart move.

Especially one who isn't even a senior. My impression is that senior QBs do better than non-senior QBs. That extra year of experience adds to maturity and develops better decision-making abilities that is critical at the QB position above all others.

[addicted]

Silly idea
First off the Colts won't trade that pick to us

And secondly we have other needs to address then just the psycho minds of the fanbase who hate Rex Grossman
So many of you hated Rex before he even got a chance on the field it's not even funny to me and continue to show how emotional you are with threads like this or the ones calling for John Beck
Rex wasn't perfect this week, he never is. Rex is perfectly imperfect every week
But neither is whatever flavor of the week QB you might want us to get
Rex knows the offense and will perform if the playcalling doesn't ask him to throw the ball 17 out of 19 plays, **** you Kyle. Get it together man seriously
In 2 games with a balanced offense he was getting the offense moving and doing great
Give him more time

And those who want to judge Rex vs Luck need to remember Matthew Stafford
In his first two season MS missed a ton of games and played in only 5 of them
And you need to remember Aaron Rogers
In his first two seasons he barely even started a single game
My point is if your wanting a quick turnaround then drafting a rookie QB is a stupid idea in general

If we were to draft the QB at #1 then I'd expect him not to play much at all for Coach Shannahan's first two seasons
And then it's Coach's 5th and final season here and we can't use him much
The time to draft a QB with a 1st round pick was this past draft but we didn't
I'm not saying lets not draft one in the 2012 draft but I am saying if you suggest we draft one and give up our entire draft to do it that it just doesn't make logical sense to me

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

If we were to draft the QB at #1 then I'd expect him not to play much at all for Coach Shannahan's first two seasons

Shanahan's track record says otherwise.

[FanboyOf91]

I think it's a given that Rex is a stop gap QB for our franchise but to trade away the house just to get Luck when we do have other needs to fill just sounds irresponsible and Cerrato like.

Seconded. It's completely short-sighted, and destabilizes the team's foundation. Might as well rehire Vinny if we do this.

[Veretax]

I will remind folks

2004


Of all the picks of the 2004 Draft Let's look at them

#1 Eli Manning (1 SB a couple of play off wins)
#4 Phillip Rivers (Few Playoff wins, no Super Bowls)
#11 Big Ben (3 Super Bowls 2 Victories? Lots of Wins in the playoffs?)
#22 JP Losman (Where is that guy now?)


Big ben wasn't taken #1, but he's got to have one of the best records of any QB taken in the last 7 years in the playoffs.

[justice98]

I'm all for getting Luck if you can, within reason. But there's gotta be another QB in that draft you can win with. How about all those fancy scouts, coaches, and front office people they pay big bucks to actually find that guy.

[andy614]

I would say most would feel that Rex is nothing more than a stop gap. For every good play he may make, he will make a bad play. The Skins long term success will be tied to some future QB.

2012 could be that time when we decide to invest in a future QB.

The consensus is Andrew Luck will be the #1 QB. If the season plays out like most think it will, we should be drafting anywhere from 10-20.

My poll question: Would you trade all your picks and even 2013 picks if need for the #1 pick?

Vinny? Is that you trolling this message board? It sure sounds like you. Let's forget all the needs of the team for one guy who will suddenly come in and make us chanpions. No thank you. I want to BUILD the team the right way. By drafting smart and filling some holes with free agents.

[ConnSKINS26]

I believe that when his NFL career ends, he'll be above Peyton Manning.

This stuff is getting beyond ridiculous, people.

Its almost like most people haven't even SEEN Luck play. They just look at him as the great hope of the NFL, a can't-miss prospect that is bound to be great, a player that half the league should be tanking for. Its out of control, and I'm already sick of it.

People, Luck is considered to be such a "can't-miss" prospect because he's a pretty safe prospect. He's not necessarily elite in many things, but he's far above average in all of them. So, he has a high floor. He can come into the NFL and possibly be like Matt Ryan pretty quickly. That's a good investment at the top of the draft. That's why he's so highly touted, so "can't-miss". Not because if you draft him, he "can't-miss" the HOF. None of what I've said means he'll come close to Peyton Manning's career. Jeez.

---------- Post added September-28th-2011 at 10:23 AM ----------


And those who want to judge Rex vs Luck need to remember Matthew Stafford
In his first two season MS missed a ton of games and played in only 5 of them
And you need to remember Aaron Rogers
In his first two seasons he barely even started a single game
My point is if your wanting a quick turnaround then drafting a rookie QB is a stupid idea in general

If we were to draft the QB at #1 then I'd expect him not to play much at all for Coach Shannahan's first two seasons

I agree with most of what you say in that post, except for this.

1. Stafford was injured. Otherwise, he would have started every single game for the Lions since he was drafted.

2. Rodgers was sitting behind a HOF'er in Brett Favre. Although I do think that he NEEDED to sit for a year or two, in order to properly burst onto the scene like he did.

So basically, those were the worst two examples you could have come up with.

And, Shanahan played Cutler about halfway through the year with a team that had just gotten to the playoffs the year prior...benching a limited system QB in Plummer to do it. Hmmm.

[justice98]

The problem for the Colts has always been that no-one who's any good wanted to be the backup to Manning, because they'd never get a game. If they do draft Luck then you might not see Luck play for years. My guess would be they'd keep him on the bench for at least 2 years and then try to trade Manning. The Colts might be better off waiting 2 years for the next QB and using the time to address, well, everything else in their team; the drop-off in performance without Manning has shown just how good a QB he's been - makes you wonder what Manning's stats would be if he'd ended up with the Patriots for example.


They didn't seem all that interested in the Billy Volek types of the world, ie., career backups that a) are comfortable in the role sitting behind an entrenched starter, and b) have shown at least some ability to play in the NFL in a real game. But Kerry Collins might not have been a bad option if they hadn't just thrown him in there after 2 weeks and expected any kind of results.

But the Colts never invested in a QB in the draft either. I don't think they spent anything higher than a 6th on a QB. It's not surprising they're in the mess they're in. The Patriots are spending a 3rd round pick on Ryan Mallet, who most people think can actually play this game. The best example would be the Packers who had Brett Favre who never missed a snap, but they invested early to middle round picks on 4-5 guys over the years that went on to be adequate to very successful starting QBs in the league. If nothing else, they would've had trade bait.

Almost everything they did was investing in the now, rather than the future or contingencies. Which isn't bad when Peyton's there every single week, they just ran into the worst case scenario.

Better QBs than Luck have sat. Sitting shouldn't be an issue. I appreciate he's hyped as the greatest thing since sliced bread without playing a snap in the NFL, but he'll have to live up to that hype to be better than Aaron Rodgers, Steve Young, and Philip Rivers et al, guys who had to sit for a few years. Making him sit is no reason not to take him unless you have a young franchise QB you believe in.

[scruffylookin]

I'm all for getting Luck, but clearly the Redskins are not going to be bad enough to be even close to drafting him or even close enough to trade up for him. I do think QB is the top need for this team moving forward into the decade, but I think that guy will have to be in that next tier of QB's who apparently are all still considered better prospects than the group that went in the first this past draft.

[Rdskns2000]

The problem for the Colts has always been that no-one who's any good wanted to be the backup to Manning, because they'd never get a game. If they do draft Luck then you might not see Luck play for years. My guess would be they'd keep him on the bench for at least 2 years and then try to trade Manning. The Colts might be better off waiting 2 years for the next QB and using the time to address, well, everything else in their team; the drop-off in performance without Manning has shown just how good a QB he's been - makes you wonder what Manning's stats would be if he'd ended up with the Patriots for example.

Rather than focusing on the one player for a future QB I think we just need to focus on getting the best QB we can without sacraficing too much - maybe the top two picks in 2012, plus some pick from the following year. A top 5 QB surrounded by a good team will do a lot better than the number 1 QB forced to carry his squad.

If the Colts were to trade Manning, next year would be the only time they can do it. He will be 36 next year; there won't be much left in the tank for him. He probably could give you 2-3 years.


I think the time has come for some changes in Coltsland. The Polians need to be on the hot seat because their drafting hasn't been that great. Lose one player and the team collapses that fast. Seems to me like they really didn't draft well. Also, Caldwell isn't that great. With Fisher,Cower and Gruden out there; there could be a coaching change. If there's a new regime in 2012, they might be more open to starting over.

[KCasady]

The team with that pick will never trade it. When Luck becomes a great QB, they will be crusified. I don't see any team trading the chance to draft Luck.

What is its the rams? They for sure wont be taking a QB. Neither will Cinci or Tennessee.

[RFKFedEx]

Next year we'll draft our stud QB. It won't be Luck, but there will be plenty of other choices.

This time we'll have a real front office making the pick, unlike in 02 and 06 when Vinny and Danny drafted Ramsey and Campbell.

This time we'll have a true long term plan to install our developing QB into an offensive scheme that won't change every other year, unlike the 2000s under Vinny and Danny.

[fwo40]

it's funny when people state "we have too many holes"...finding an elite QB is the toughest whole to fill in all of sports. If your scouting department has a QB prospect as a "once in a decade" QB you do whatever it takes to get him. The other holes can be patched over time-you miss a QB you pay for that a long time.

Now, if people just simply don't believe Luck will be that type of QB-that's fine. But the "too many holes" argument is foolish.

[ConnSKINS26]

it's funny when people state "we have too many holes"...finding an elite QB is the toughest whole to fill in all of sports. If your scouting department has a QB prospect as a "once in a decade" QB you do whatever it takes to get him. The other holes can be patched over time-you miss a QB you pay for that a long time.

Now, if people just simply don't believe Luck will be that type of QB-that's fine. But the "too many holes" argument is foolish.

People don't say "we have too many holes" in regards to taking that highly-rated QB prospect at all. Its in regards to not being able to afford to trade away tons of high draft picks for that single player. If we were naturally in position to take "our" QB, that's a different matter entirely.

But if you trade the house for one guy, then what do you fill the other holes with? You'd traded away your draft picks, especially the high-impact ones.

[That Redskins Fan]

All In On RG3 or Barkley and Tanehill

Pass on landry Jones And Kirk Cousins

And you would not have to trade all the skins picks for BArkley, RG3 or Tanehill

[mistertim]

People, Luck is considered to be such a "can't-miss" prospect because he's a pretty safe prospect. He's not necessarily elite in many things, but he's far above average in all of them. So, he has a high floor. He can come into the NFL and possibly be like Matt Ryan pretty quickly. That's a good investment at the top of the draft. That's why he's so highly touted, so "can't-miss". Not because if you draft him, he "can't-miss" the HOF. None of what I've said means he'll come close to Peyton Manning's career. Jeez.

To be honest this sort of stuff was what was talked about in the Manning/Leaf debate. Manning had the football IQ, the maturity, the mechanics and the study habits. Leaf had the "swagger", the elite arm, mobility, the big time physical traits, etc. As far as Luck, I think he DOES have many elite traits. Sure, he doesn't have a Favre-like arm and probably doesn't run a 4.4 40. But from watching him play I'd say his ability to read defenses, decision making (before and after the snap), footwork, mechanics, and accuracy are elite. He has an arm that is fine for making all the throws needed in the NFL but not a rocket launcher. He has the size, is a surprisingly good runner outside of the pocket, and seems to be great at sensing pressure.

No rational person is going to say he is a sure fire HOFer. That is ridiculous. But it seems he is the best PROSPECT to come out in a very long time. I'm not saying I advocate giving up an entire draft to get him, but if Shanny and Co. really think he can be a great one and they want to give up a substantial amount to get him then I'll trust them.

[addicted]

And, Shanahan played Cutler about halfway through the year with a team that had just gotten to the playoffs the year prior...benching a limited system QB in Plummer to do it. Hmmm.

Week 13 is not about halfway through the season


Shanahan's track record says otherwise.

Say what?
Jay Cutler the last QB taken by Coach Shannahan in the 1st round didn't start his first game until week 13 in his rookie year
That's the point Im making, if your so stuck on us needing to take a rookie QB and giving away all our picks to get him you have to know that he's not going to play much his first season


Anyway this team does have lots of holes to fill
We still need more corners
We still need more Defensive Linemen
We still need more Offensive Linemen
We still need a replacement for London Fletcher
If we don't re-sign Davis he will need replaced
Our current QB's are either on 1 year deals or will be in a contract season next year
And giving away tons of picks means we don't get to develop those positions

It means we don't get Ryan Kerrigan, Roy Helu, or Jarvis Jenkins, or Niles Paul, or Evan Royster, or Leonard Hankerson, or the rest of the rookies we got last year
And ultimately it means that since we are a team captained by men who are excellent at drafting and spoting skilled players
those wanting us to throw away the chance to improve the entire team would be taking one of best traits of this team and decide to go all in on one guy

If Vinny were still here playing games with Snyder I'd probably pull a Ditka and throw away all of our picks for the next Payton Manning
Because they showed like in 2008 that even with 10 draft picks they couldn't find any players
But I have seen and have faith in Coach Shannahans ability to draft and that's just too damn good to pull an All In move

What I'd like to see us do actually is to contact the Panthers and work out a deal with Jimmy Clausen for one of our received traded picks
JC is a talented QB, and he's never gonna get any playing time sitting behind Cam
Or I'd like to see us target Green Bay's backup Flynn and trade a middle round pick for him
Instead of just going all in for one guy in this years draft
Or even I'd like to see us draft multiple rookie QB's next year with the picks we have now and let them fight it out to be the starter
Anything but the stupid idea that we trade away all of our draft picks for one guy

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Say what?
Jay Cutler the last QB taken by Coach Shannahan didn't start his first game until week 13 in his rookie year
That's the point Im making, if your so stuck on us needing to take a rookie QB and give away all our picks to get him you have to know that he's not going to play much his first season

addicted, I wouldn't be surprised if our rookie QB didn't play much his rookie year....but thats not what you said.


I was responding to the post below.


Originally Posted by addicted

If we were to draft the QB at #1 then I'd expect him not to play much at all for Coach Shannahan's first two seasons

[darrelgreenie]

As far as Luck, I think he DOES have many elite traits. Sure, he doesn't have a Favre-like arm and probably doesn't run a 4.4 40. But from watching him play I'd say his ability to read defenses, decision making (before and after the snap), footwork, mechanics, and accuracy are elite. He has an arm that is fine for making all the throws needed in the NFL but not a rocket launcher. He has the size, is a surprisingly good runner outside of the pocket, and seems to be great at sensing pressure.
I guess it depends on your definition of elite and what you consider an individual attribute vs a scheme/coaching/team derived trait.
When I think of elite I think top tier in the draft class and elite by comparison to current NFL standards.
For me I think Luck's elite ability is his playmaking.
I agree he has a great feel for pressure and has a comfort level making plays outside the design of the play.
I think traits like read defenses, decision making (before and after the snap), footwork are too linked to coaching/system and team to count as individual.

I think Luck has very good accuracy and pretty clean throwing mechanics but I wouldn't say either are elite.
I think Luck lacks the big time arm strength that I think you need; to have elite accuracy you have to be able to drive the ball, with velocity, to all levels of the field that strong armed guys like Mallet, Newton, Locker, Stafford, Flacco have.
I still rate Luck's accuracy as ahead of those guys except for Mallett, because Luck already shows an understanding of how to throw to a covered receiver i.e. throwing them away from coverage, throwing back shoulder etc.


But it seems he is the best PROSPECT to come out in a very long time.I agree he's a very clean prospect.
But I don't see what separates him so much from guys like Newton, Locker, Stafford.


I'm not saying I advocate giving up an entire draft to get him, but if Shanny and Co. really think he can be a great one and they want to give up a substantial amount to get him then I'll trust them.One of the benefits of having a staff that knows how to coach the QB position is their knowledge reduces the need to spend heavily on the position.
(Trading up for Luck would represent spending very heavily imo)
Coaching staffs that know how to develop a QB can acquire/draft a player with similar physical talent that lacks the 'polish' of a Luck, and coach them to where they need to be to become the QB we/they want.

[mistertim]

Say what?
Jay Cutler the last QB taken by Coach Shannahan didn't start his first game until week 13 in his rookie year
That's the point Im making, if your so stuck on us needing to take a rookie QB and give away all our picks to get him you have to know that he's not going to play much his first season

---------- Post added September-28th-2011 at 12:24 PM ----------



Week 13 is not about halfway through the season

I think the general point they're making is that if Shanahan believes a rookie QB is ready to play he will play him. That might not be week 1 but who knows; it depends on the rookie's progress/apparent readiness as well as how the incumbent is looking. I don't think he is the kind of coach who will sit a young QB JUST to sit him. If he were to get a kid like Luck I wouldn't be surprised if he was the week 1 starter.

[Riggo#44]

Even with 9 wins, Kiper thinks we have a shot at Barkley:


Dan (Washington, DC)


Skins looking out of the running for the big 3 QBs (assuming they won't collapse again). Who is the best of the rest?

Mel Kiper (1:41 PM)


The best of the rest, if you think Luck goes No. 1 and Landry Jones in the top 5 and then Matt Barkley next in the mix, he would be the one that you would think about where they'll be drafting. I thought they'd win 9 games at the start of the season and I think they could end up a 10-6 team. The schedule doesn't get super challenging until late in the year. They could definitely win 9 or 10 games this year. They gave one away Monday night. How they lost to the Cowboys is amazing. With that record, they might have a shot at Barkley.

[tdigle]

Even with 9 wins, Kiper thinks we have a shot at Barkley:

Barkley scares me given how mediocre/piss-poor QBs coming out of USC have been. If the 'Skins can execute a reasonable trade to move up to nab Jones, I say go for it. If not, I'd pass over Barkley and go for Griffin. If the college season plays out like it already has, though, RGIII might end up going in the mid-1st round.

[Riggo#44]

Barkley scares me given how mediocre/piss-poor QBs coming out of USC have been. If the 'Skins can execute a reasonable trade to move up to nab Jones, I say go for it. If not, I'd pass over Barkley and go for Griffin. If the college season plays out like it already has, though, RGIII might end up going in the mid-1st round.

We still have 6 mos to go, so a lot can change. I have not been able to find much on Griffin. The thing I do like about Barkley is this (granted from Scouts Inc, so take it with a grain of salt):


A polished prospect that possesses a high football IQ and shoulders a tremendous amount of responsibility conducting a pro-style offense. Possesses great field awareness and has a thorough understanding of game situations. Processes information quickly both with pre and post-snap. Sees the entire field and consistently can get to second and third progressions. Savvy and can manipulate coverage with pump fakes. Oblivious to the rush and will sit in the pocket and make throw under duress. Calm and executed well working against pressure. Can anticipate throwing lanes. Needs to cut down on interception total. To his defense several INTs were due to a lack of communication or drops by receivers.

He sounds like he is a student of the game, and not a partying retard like Leinart was. And I wouldn't base the predictions of QBs off their predecessors at their alma mater. Afterall, Peyton Manning was preceeded by Heath Shuler at Tennesee

[fwo40]

People don't say "we have too many holes" in regards to taking that highly-rated QB prospect at all. Its in regards to not being able to afford to trade away tons of high draft picks for that single player. If we were naturally in position to take "our" QB, that's a different matter entirely.

But if you trade the house for one guy, then what do you fill the other holes with? You'd traded away your draft picks, especially the high-impact ones.


2 seasons of draft picks for 10 plus years of elite QB play is a trade off I take every time. This team is not in position to win anything significant - despite people's recent optimism. You trade the picks, get your QB surf FA for a few stop gaps, resign your young players, and wait it out til like year 3 or 4.

It's better than another 10 years of having say an above average D and below average offense, and 2 playoff appearances.

[dallasfan]

We still have 6 mos to go, so a lot can change. I have not been able to find much on Griffin. The thing I do like about Barkley is this (granted from Scouts Inc, so take it with a grain of salt):



He sounds like he is a student of the game, and not a partying retard like Leinart was. And I wouldn't base the predictions of QBs off their predecessors at their alma mater. Afterall, Peyton Manning was preceeded by Heath Shuler at Tennesee

Unless Seattle takes Andrew Luck, Pete Carroll will not pass on Matt Barkley. I know he hasn't taken a ton of trojans in the 2 drafts he has done (if any) but Barkley unlike a Taylor Mays, does have a skill set that translates to the NFL, he's familiar with him, having recruited him and coached him (remeber he started him as a freshman) and was truly enamored with him while he was still coaching USC.

To get him, you would have to either hope Seattle gets the #1 pick, or you will have to leap frog them to get Barkley. However, if Seattle gets Luck, Barkley could fall till after Landry Jones.

[Gibbsisgod2006]

Week 13 is not about halfway through the season

What I'd like to see us do actually is to contact the Panthers and work out a deal with Jimmy Clausen for one of our received traded picks
JC is a talented QB, and he's never gonna get any playing time sitting behind Cam
Or I'd like to see us target Green Bay's backup Flynn and trade a middle round pick for him
Instead of just going all in for one guy in this years draft
Or even I'd like to see us draft multiple rookie QB's next year with the picks we have now and let them fight it out to be the starter
Anything but the stupid idea that we trade away all of our draft picks for one guy

This team needs a QB, and if Shanny and company can get an ellite QB they need to get him.

[addicted]

addicted, I wouldn't be surprised if our rookie QB didn't play much his rookie year....but thats not what you said.


I was responding to the post below.

Your right I said 2 years
Ya got me man :D

[RichmondRedskin88]

I will remind folks

2004


Of all the picks of the 2004 Draft Let's look at them

#1 Eli Manning (1 SB a couple of play off wins)
#4 Phillip Rivers (Few Playoff wins, no Super Bowls)
#11 Big Ben (3 Super Bowls 2 Victories? Lots of Wins in the playoffs?)
#22 JP Losman (Where is that guy now?)


Big ben wasn't taken #1, but he's got to have one of the best records of any QB taken in the last 7 years in the playoffs.


One should point out Big Ben had a insane defense to back him up too.

[addicted]

I think the general point they're making is that if Shanahan believes a rookie QB is ready to play he will play him. That might not be week 1 but who knows; it depends on the rookie's progress/apparent readiness as well as how the incumbent is looking. I don't think he is the kind of coach who will sit a young QB JUST to sit him. If he were to get a kid like Luck I wouldn't be surprised if he was the week 1 starter.

I agree but I think there is a progression to a team and a #1 QB
For a team to land the top QB they have to have a bad team
Only the worst team drafts #1
If a team is the worst in the league unless it's a weird situation like the Colts this year who have a fanbase, the teams likely not got too much going for itself
That bad team needs a spark and something to get some butts in the seats and what do they have to lose starting that guy?
It gets the fans interested so he gets to go

A guy like Campbell or Rogers weren't picked #1 overall
Those guys got to sit for a while and learn
They are different, fans are more patient on average to let them mature
But with top signal callers they generally get thrown to the wolves for reasons not necessarily because they are the best chance to win

[Dannyc]

Week 13 is not about halfway through the season



Say what?
Jay Cutler the last QB taken by Coach Shannahan in the 1st round didn't start his first game until week 13 in his rookie year
That's the point Im making, if your so stuck on us needing to take a rookie QB and giving away all our picks to get him you have to know that he's not going to play much his first season


Anyway this team does have lots of holes to fill
We still need more corners
We still need more Defensive Linemen
We still need more Offensive Linemen
We still need a replacement for London Fletcher
If we don't re-sign Davis he will need replaced
Our current QB's are either on 1 year deals or will be in a contract season next year
And giving away tons of picks means we don't get to develop those positions

It means we don't get Ryan Kerrigan, Roy Helu, or Jarvis Jenkins, or Niles Paul, or Evan Royster, or Leonard Hankerson, or the rest of the rookies we got last year
And ultimately it means that since we are a team captained by men who are excellent at drafting and spoting skilled players
those wanting us to throw away the chance to improve the entire team would be taking one of best traits of this team and decide to go all in on one guy

If Vinny were still here playing games with Snyder I'd probably pull a Ditka and throw away all of our picks for the next Payton Manning
Because they showed like in 2008 that even with 10 draft picks they couldn't find any players
But I have seen and have faith in Coach Shannahans ability to draft and that's just too damn good to pull an All In move

What I'd like to see us do actually is to contact the Panthers and work out a deal with Jimmy Clausen for one of our received traded picks
JC is a talented QB, and he's never gonna get any playing time sitting behind Cam
Or I'd like to see us target Green Bay's backup Flynn and trade a middle round pick for him
Instead of just going all in for one guy in this years draft
Or even I'd like to see us draft multiple rookie QB's next year with the picks we have now and let them fight it out to be the starter
Anything but the stupid idea that we trade away all of our draft picks for one guy
Well, we know Helu and Kerrigan are solid players. The rest of the guys you named that we have drafted are total question marks still. We have no idea how Paul, Rosyter, Hankerson, etc. are going to do in the NFL. One thing I do agree with you is about contacting Carolina about Clausen. Personally, I would love for us to acquire Andrew Luck, I think it's worth trading a draft for him. I would trade all of the guys we drafted this season for Luck.

[36HAMMER]

in the end it really doesnt matter what we feel or think, if Mike feels that Luck is the one they want they will go after him.but i have alwaays said that our own history shows that a great line can carry a team to the superbowl better than a great qb with a so so oline.especially in this blitz happy league.i want a dominate center and left guard and i think that will settle this line down and improve our redzone woes. then we can get a qb that throws lazer beams and stuff.i am fed up with horse before the carriage.i would like some feed back on why the Skins passed on Johnathan Joeseph and G/ Davin Joeseph. both players are as good if not better than what we have.thanks people HTTR

[addicted]

This team needs a QB, and if Shanny and company can get an ellite QB they need to get him.

The only limits to improving our team are our imaginations and ability to scout

Before the Cowboys won the Superbowls in the 1990's they spent 2 first round picks in the same year on QB's
I wouldn't mind us spending two picks on two different QB's but I would mind us spending all of our picks on one guy

Before Green Bay won it's championship in the 1990's they spent a 2nd round pick on the little known backup QB in Atlanta
I wouldn't mind us spending a pick on someone's backup QB either

There is no reason to believe we have only one choice to find our guy

[SwampEm]

If we did it would rank right up there with this trade in 1989

Minnesota Vikings received

RB Herschel Walker
Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1990 (54) (Mike Jones)
San Diego's 5th round pick - 1990 (116) (Reggie Thornton)
Dallas's 10th round pick - 1990 (249) (Pat Newman)
Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1991 (68) (Jake Reed)

Dallas Cowboys received

LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) - (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)

That one worked out really well for Minnesota...

[Dannyc]

If we did it would rank right up there with this trade in 1989

Minnesota Vikings received

RB Herschel Walker
Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1990 (54) (Mike Jones)
San Diego's 5th round pick - 1990 (116) (Reggie Thornton)
Dallas's 10th round pick - 1990 (249) (Pat Newman)
Dallas's 3rd round pick - 1991 (68) (Jake Reed)

Dallas Cowboys received

LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional) - (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional) - (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional) - (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)

That one worked out really well for Minnesota...

A franchise RB is not the same as a franchise QB.

[addicted]

Well, we know Helu and Kerrigan are solid players. The rest of the guys you named that we have drafted are total question marks still. We have no idea how Paul, Rosyter, Hankerson, etc. are going to do in the NFL.

I saw in preseason that those guys have some work to do but will become playmakers some day in the league
It may not be week one but like the Ravens wideout, it will happen eventually
But since you only know about Helu and Kerrigan lets not forget the second to last pick in the draft Chris Neild
Chris Neild in his first three games has 2 sacks and has been very good in his limited time
The point I'm making is that when you have a staff who can spot talent and manuver a draft like we just did
The idea that you go all in and draft one single player is like shooting ourselves in the foot

[Dannyc]

I saw in preseason that those guys have some work to do but will become playmakers some day in the league
It may not be week one but like the Ravens wideout, it will happen eventually
But since you only know about Helu and Kerrigan lets not forget the second to last pick in the draft Chris Neild
Chris Neild in his first three games has 2 sacks and has been very good in his limited time
The point I'm making is that when you have a staff who can spot talent and manuver a draft like we just did
The idea that you go all in and draft one single player is like shooting ourselves in the foot

What if your staff believes Luck is the next Peyton Manning? Would it not be worth it then?

[Symbol]

Why do I keep coming to the Stadium? Every time there's a bad game it's the end of the world, let's trade our next 20 years picks for this player or that player. Let's get rid of this player because he's a joke. The moment we win these same people are like, this guy that I just said was the worst player in the world, well now he's a GOD.

[Riggo#44]

Unless Seattle takes Andrew Luck, Pete Carroll will not pass on Matt Barkley. I know he hasn't taken a ton of trojans in the 2 drafts he has done (if any) but Barkley unlike a Taylor Mays, does have a skill set that translates to the NFL, he's familiar with him, having recruited him and coached him (remeber he started him as a freshman) and was truly enamored with him while he was still coaching USC.

To get him, you would have to either hope Seattle gets the #1 pick, or you will have to leap frog them to get Barkley. However, if Seattle gets Luck, Barkley could fall till after Landry Jones.

Assuming Pete Carroll is there next year. Seattle is really bad this year. Really bad. They still finished under .500 last year too (including the fluke win over the Saints in the playoffs). They could very well be #1 overall -- and if they're top 5, I see them taking Jones over Barkley.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Your right I said 2 years
Ya got me man :D

:cheers:

[Rypien1191]

Rex is not going to win us a Super Bowl.

But he is good enough where we can build a team around the QB and progressively get better as a team, and he won't set us backwards.

[dallasfan]

Assuming Pete Carroll is there next year. Seattle is really bad this year. Really bad. They still finished under .500 last year too (including the fluke win over the Saints in the playoffs). They could very well be #1 overall -- and if they're top 5, I see them taking Jones over Barkley.

I doubt he's not in Seattle next year. They definately over achieved last year (how can I say that about a 7-9 team?!) and picking 26th in each round hurt. I see him getting several more seasons before the plug is pulled, after all you don't pay a guy almost 7 million over 5 years, give him control over football operations and fire him after 2 years.

I would be shocked if he took Jones over Barkley. I think Jones is the better prospect, atleast for now, but he just couldn't stop raving about how great Barkley was during that whole season. If Jones is far and away the better prospect, then he may take him, but I think Jones is gonna edge Barkley out just by a bit when the draft process is over.

[Riggo#44]

I doubt he's not in Seattle next year. They definately over achieved last year (how can I say that about a 7-9 team?!) and picking 26th in each round hurt. I see him getting several more seasons before the plug is pulled, after all you don't pay a guy almost 7 million over 5 years, give him control over football operations and fire him after 2 years.

I would be shocked if he took Jones over Barkley. I think Jones is the better prospect, atleast for now, but he just couldn't stop raving about how great Barkley was during that whole season. If Jones is far and away the better prospect, then he may take him, but I think Jones is gonna edge Barkley out just by a bit when the draft process is over.

I guess we shall see -- lots of football to be played between then and now. I will say the Redskins will take a QB in the 1st round this year, no doubt about it, they plugged so many holes last year...

[dallasfan]

I guess we shall see -- lots of football to be played between then and now. I will say the Redskins will take a QB in the 1st round this year, no doubt about it, they plugged so many holes last year...

I think you guys end up with Tannehill or trade down and target a guy like Nick Foles. I actually think all 3 QBs go fairly early with teams like the Colts, Dolphins, Chiefs and Seahawks headed towards the top 5 and Denver likely in the top 10.

[blindside]

Shanny has shown me that he knows how to build a team...I trust he will find his QB. Everyone was questioning why he chose Jay Cutler so early? Before you bash Cutler...when has any QB played great in Chicago?

[DiscoBob]

If the Shanny's were 100% sold on Luck, the highest I would go would be:

#1 2012 (assuming we are ~#10 pick)
#2 2012
#1 2013

I don't think that would be enough, but that's all I'd be willing to trade...

[sportjunkie07]

i place a lot of importance on the qb position, but spending all our our 2012 draft or more than that?

i just dont think it would work for our team, even if luck turns out to be manning-like. the most id spend is two firsts and a second, and that wouldnt be enough.

what i dont want to do is overpay for a qb prospect because there was an early run on qbs.

[Trippster]

Great quarterbacks can be had without sacrificing. We could have drafted Tom Brady. We could have drafted Aaron Rodgers. They're out there. You need good scouts.

[mistertim]

Great quarterbacks can be had without sacrificing. We could have drafted Tom Brady. We could have drafted Aaron Rodgers. They're out there. You need good scouts.

Tom Brady was probably the biggest steal in the history of the NFL draft. Getting a QB in the 6th round who ends up being that good just doesn't happen as a general rule. The Pats have a very good scouting department but I seriously doubt they looked at Brady and said "this kid is going to easily be one of the best QBs to ever play the game" and then proceeded to wait until the 6th to pick him. Yes we could have drafted Rodgers but a couple of things on that. First, he dropped way lower on draft day than he was projected due to...who knows what circumstances. Some people were even talking about him as being the #1 overall pick that year. Second, there is no way to know how good Rodgers would be right now if he didn't land in an almost perfect situation with GB where he sat for a few years behind a HOF QB and has had a consistent system.

All that being said, I do agree with your general premise. Good scouting is absolutely essential.

[GibbsFactor]

If the Shanny's were 100% sold on Luck, the highest I would go would be:

#1 2012 (assuming we are ~#10 pick)
#2 2012
#1 2013

I don't think that would be enough, but that's all I'd be willing to trade...

Yeah, you are going to have to do better than that. Those three picks make it a no-brainer. You'd have to add a second rounder and a top player.

[DiscoBob]

Yeah, you are going to have to do better than that. Those three picks make it a no-brainer. You'd have to add a second rounder and a top player.

I might be willing to add the #2 in 2012, but more than that and the potential to setback the team even further for another 5 years is too high...

[addicted]

Shanny has shown me that he knows how to build a team...I trust he will find his QB. Everyone was questioning why he chose Jay Cutler so early? Before you bash Cutler...when has any QB played great in Chicago?

Rex Grossman took the Bears to the SB
Don't give me that crap that it was all Hester and the Defense
No it wasn't
Was the Ravens all Defense and ST and no Trent Dilfer?
No it wasn't
No teams QB has nothing to do with them winning enough games to get to the playoffs and a SB

---------- Post added September-28th-2011 at 05:52 PM ----------


I think you guys end up with Tannehill or trade down and target a guy like Nick Foles. I actually think all 3 QBs go fairly early with teams like the Colts, Dolphins, Chiefs and Seahawks headed towards the top 5 and Denver likely in the top 10.

After the run on them this year I think your right