Is Kyle not equally, if not more to blame? (Than Rex)

[seriously]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.

[Oldskool]

No. It is up to the QB to execute the plays that are called or to check out of them. This are Rex's issues, not Kyle's.

Kyle is to blame for not running out the clock in Dallas though.

[Warhead36]

Kyle's playcalling was not good today. He tried to get cute when there was no need to. Simply running in some of those 2nd half plays where we stupidly threw it would have not only killed more clock, it would have kept drives going.

Still, the INTs were not his fault. The first was a good play actually, Moss had it and probably gets the first with YAC(if not it sets up an easier FG). The second was just an awful throw, but we probably should have ran it in that situation.

[sempre_victrix]

Only saw the first half today, but Kyle's play calling sucks so far this season.

[bigjumbo1971]

I was totally against the pass happy beginning of the game...started playaction a bunch before we made them fear the run

[seriously]

No. It is up to the QB to execute the plays that are called or to check out of them. This are Rex's issues, not Kyle's.

Kyle is to blame for not running out the clock in Dallas though.

You're absolutley correct, it is on the player to execute. But for all the outpour of hate for Rex, I can't help but to cal blame to the playcalling, not to mention a qb can only be held accountable for the ball getting the WR- them popping the ball up and it getting picked is not on his shoulders.

[tiger187126]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.

196 yards rushing.

why can't you people understand that? almost 200 yards rushing and a qb who has a history of turning the ball over and you blame the OC?

[rdskn4eva]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.

I said it during the game, but Kyle is not a good play caller. he doesnt have a good instincts as a play caller. Its like he just calls random plays and hopes one breaks for a good gain. So yes, I partially blame Kyle. But Rex is the triggerman and right now, he is not playing good football.

[SkinsTillIDie]

We really have no idea, mostly because we have no idea how many plays Grossman is leaving on the field. Just with the lame TV view, it seems Grossman consistently misses opportunities to pick up guaranteed yards with open guys in the flat by trying to force something tougher downfield to get larger chunks. It hasn't worked since the first half of the Cardinals game.

It certainly seems like Kyle is keeping defenses off balance. We just don't have the players (QB; wide receivers) to fully execute his scheme yet.

[Bang]

The last INT i place right on Rex.. how he does not see that clog of Rams in his field of vision is beyond me. On TV they showed a beautiful angle right over his shoulder.. there's no way he even saw them. He focused right in on Moss.

The pick to Laurinitis was the same,, he never looked away and made a bad throw.



The GOOD news?

we've won 2 games in which Rex played sub-par.. today and vs Arizona.

that is nice.

early in the game I knew why we were passing.. the Rams were terrible coming into the game vs the run, and figured they'd be stacking to try and establish they wouldn't be run over again.. passing early made sense to back them up, and when Torain came in, he found gaping holes to run through.. getting hit by safeties and CBs first is a thing of beauty when you're a RB.

Does anyone know if we script out the first 20 or so plays like a lot of teams used to do?
It looked like it today.

~Bang

[monkeezgob]

Kyle cant resist over elaborating, or getting getting cute when there's no need to. If this is him play calling to Grossman's strengths, then i'd hate to see him play call to undermine him.

Note to Kyle: We don't have Tom Brady at QB, it's Rex Grossman.

Two consecutive weeks of poor play calling. The offense is slowly running out of steam. I think Mike needs to sit down and have a long hard chat with his son in the bye week. He may be a genius at designing plays, but he stinks as a play caller.

[Smurf85]

The play calling on offense is horrible as far as I'm concerned. The red zone calling is so predictable. I mean 90% of the time it's run, run, pass and the passing situation is long. So yeah Rex might suck, but so does Kyle. The sad thing is were stuck with both of them.

[mi6]

For me, the offense really has been offensive. The mix is just not adding up. Frankly, it's boring and predictable.

We don't go deep. We hardly get both Cooley and Davis involved consistently. And, the over reliance on #89 is just painful to watch. Why aren't we calling plays with 2 TEs and 3 WRs and spreading the offense.

Why aren't Anthony Armstrong, Niles Paul, and Leonard Hankerson being used especially when we can use their physicality in the redzone.

Perhaps, Kyle should spend some time looking at the Patriots offense, and take meticulous notes!

[MartinC]

I actually like the way Kyle call the game. He does sometimes get away from the run, he is clearly a pass first coach but it's hard to carp about not committing to the run in a game we almost had 200 yards on the ground.

Rex made some bad decisions and a couple flat bad throws today. The first pick was on Moss, the second was an awful play by Rex. Second time in two weeks he has totally failed to locate the MLB in a Cover 2 look. You just can not make that mistake.

I think talk of benching Rex is very premature. We are 3-1 and playing some good football on defense, have 3 good backs and an OLine which is playing well. Kyle needs to get Rex to settle down and make better decisions. Rex is doing some good things but those brain fades will kill you.

However this year ends up QB is a need next year.

[DeadExField]

I think Rex will bounce back, benching him will not solve the issue and if they put Beck in, Beck will have too much pressure on him to be "perfect" that he will probably unfold. And what if Beck lays an egg, then what? Then you have two sour grapes QBs. You want your starting QB to be confident, and comfortable and have room to learn from their mistakes. I think the culture of benching after a sour performance has diminished here in Washington.

[Snagletooth]

Yeah Kyle's play calling really ruined Schaub in Houston. He just doesn't understand football. Its all dangerous and scary to pass. A smart OC would run succesfully to set up the run in key situations.

[HateNMyEyez]

the first INT goes on santana moss cuz it hit him in the hands on the money, but the 2nd one was a bad throw. They do need to do a better job mixing and matching for sure on the playcalling

[Phixius]

Both need to take responsibility. Kyle doesn't use logic when it comes to playcalling. He just pull a random play out of thin air and expect it to work, ignoring what the defense is doing and Rex needs to pay attention.

[Main-Maine]

196 yards rushing.

why can't you people understand that? almost 200 yards rushing and a qb who has a history of turning the ball over and you blame the OC?

I dont think it's Kyle fault because a 196 yards is enough to establish the run.

The defense at certain points were just focusing on the run, but thanks to Torrain great power running it din't show too much.

[rocazares]

I know Rex is only our QB to start building this franchise to win, I mean, he's here to do the job. Be starting QB until he melt down with a lot of mistakes and get benched, and until we draft a QB.

I'm fine with Rex because I feel Allen and Shanny know what they're doing. Of course I get mad with Bad Rex or Nervous Rex, but a lot of people immediately goes for Rex's head.
ALL OF US knows Rex is an average QB turning into good QB some games, and other games a very bad QB.
Why did I post all of this? Because IMO the play calling is not giving confidence to Rex, is not putting Rex and the rest of the O in comfortable situations.
Some times (like MNF and today) I felt the O is playing in a videogame, not the execution but the play calling.

We complain about execution, but if we try to manage with some imagination and some "logic" plays, we don't need to put our O under pressure a lot times.

Kyle needs to figure out, he's getting paid for that.
NFCE is not jus tanother random conference, we will not win versus our rivals with the combination of conservative/play calling like Madden 12 on line/prank plays.

I hope Mr. Shanny told something to his son about that "no winning" play calling, because this team has the hand break on the running game and no imagination on the passing game.

[DieselPwr44]

Who has Rex rolling to his left when he can barely roll right?

Who gets cute on 3rd and 1 when Torain is running hot and the Rams are on the ropes?


You earn the right to run the ball in this league. Once you have it established that your opponent can't handle your run game, you keep hitting them over the head with it,period.

If ever a game called for the "Riggo Drill", this one was it. We let the Rams back into this game and it almost bit us in the butt.

Happy we got the win, but we have alot to work on.

[ciresolstice]

I think the play calling gets too cute or chess matchy for it's own good. Just run what works. I hang it more on Rex than Kyle though.

[Rodriggo]

Excuses, excuses.

Yes the play calling is suspect but nobody is making Grossman throw across his body back across the field or simply not see the MLB.

He's sloppy, inaccurate, out-of-shape and has an attitude about it. **** him, bench his ***. Let's see what Beck has.

It's getting to the point where I expected him to throw that pick to Laurenitis. Not good enough.

[skins4eva]

Kyle is a huge, huge problem. The passing game looks awful and the formations and playcalling are amateur at best.

[Rodriggo]

Who gets cute on 3rd and 1 when Torain is running hot and the Rams are on the ropes?

Ha! Absolutely.

I don't remember if it was Dallas or Arizona but there were a couple of 3 and 1s with an empty backfield, just insane.

[monkeezgob]

Who has Rex rolling to his left when he can barely roll right?

Who gets cute on 3rd and 1 when Torain is running hot and the Rams are on the ropes?


You earn the right to run the ball in this league. Once you have it established that your opponent can't handle your run game, you keep hitting them over the head with it,period.

If ever a game called for the "Riggo Drill", this one was it. We let the Rams back into this game and it almost bit us in the butt.

Happy we got the win, but we have alot to work on.

Absolutely agree with this.

[tiger187126]

Who has Rex rolling to his left when he can barely roll right?

Who gets cute on 3rd and 1 when Torain is running hot and the Rams are on the ropes?


You earn the right to run the ball in this league. Once you have it established that your opponent can't handle your run game, you keep hitting them over the head with it,period.

If ever a game called for the "Riggo Drill", this one was it. We let the Rams back into this game and it almost bit us in the butt.

Happy we got the win, but we have alot to work on.

because if we get stuffed, it's "we're too one dimensional"

it's all armchair play calling.

i am tired of this board saying "we could call out these plays because we're so predictable" or "we're getting too cute"

the rams had 2 backup CBs who were torched last weak and it was obviously their weak point. they have more legit players up front than we want to give them credit for, we just apparently don't have the horses to take advantage of one of the worst secondaries in the NFL. which is a pathetic thing.

[FuriousD]

Kyle is a huge, huge problem. The passing game looks awful and the formations and playcalling are amateur at best.

And how many years offensive experience do you have at the college or pro level?

[jnhay]

Not at all. You can say he was calling bad plays, but there were several plays that had players wide open and Rex just sucked. Kyle's plays weren't as bad as Rex made them look. I think Kyle showed a little too much faith in Rex though.


Excuses, excuses.

Yes the play calling is suspect but nobody is making Grossman throw across his body back across the field or simply not see the MLB.

The sad part about that was Cooley was WIDE OPEN for a couple seconds. By the time Rex decided to throw it, the coverage had finally reached him.

[RandyHolt]

3rd and 3 up 7 late with a 175 yds rushing, the defense wanting to conserve time outs, we passed. Kyle can be a pass happy bugger.

He is converting this team to a pass first team, keeping up with the league trends. It didnt work, the ole man's run game won it for us today. I wonder whose idea it was to roll out the ATV today.

[FuriousD]

Bottom line for me is that this is the best HC & OC combo we've had here in quite some time but all you armchair quarterback thing you could do better. Laughable. You'd be out of your depth the second you stepped on the field and out of ideas 5-mins after that.

Would you have Zorn back? Or Gibbs and his old fashioned offense calling in Saunders to blow the dust off his 600 page play book? How about Spurrier?

The Shanahan's are the real deal but this team is still very "new". 2 years in new systems and playbooks. Like it or not this is still early days and a work in progress. Execution is eveything.

[jnhay]

Bottom line for me is that this is the best HC & OC combo we've had here in quite some time but all you armchair quarterback thing you could do better. Laughable. You'd be out of your depth the second you stepped on the field and out of ideas 5-mins after that.

Would you have Zorn back? Or Gibbs and his old fashioned offense calling in Saunders to blow the dust off his 600 page play book? How about Spurrier?

The Shanahan's are the real deal but this team is still very "new". 2 years in new systems and playbooks. Like it or not this is still early days and a work in progress. Execution is eveything.
Very true. Just like the running lanes didn't all of a sudden pop up when Torain went out there. Hightower just missed a lot of opportunities.

[grego]

Yeah Kyle's play calling really ruined Schaub in Houston. He just doesn't understand football. Its all dangerous and scary to pass. A smart OC would run succesfully to set up the run in key situations.

then why isnt it working here? is it rex? cuz apparently last week our WR's werent getting open. if they are stacking the box, we should have WR's open, and they arent getting open.

so whose not doing their job.

kyle does suck, btw. schaubs stats in houston were great, but you run the ball with a lead. particularly when it starts working.

[DieselPwr44]

because if we get stuffed, it's "we're too one dimensional"

it's all armchair play calling.

i am tired of this board saying "we could call out these plays because we're so predictable" or "we're getting too cute"

the rams had 2 backup CBs who were torched last weak and it was obviously their weak point. they have more legit players up front than we want to give them credit for, we just apparently don't have the horses to take advantage of one of the worst secondaries in the NFL. which is a pathetic thing.

If we get stuffed??

Up until we went Fun N Gun, the Rams hadn't even hinted at stopping Torain.

And given the way Rex was playing, I don't think it was a good thing to put the game in his hands.

Did you even watch the game today?

[thesubmittedone]

then why isnt it working here? is it rex? cuz apparently last week our WR's werent getting open. if they are stacking the box, we should have WR's open, and they arent getting open.

so whose not doing their job.

kyle does suck, btw. schaubs stats in houston were great, but you run the ball with a lead. particularly when it starts working.

We're missing our lone speedy deep threat in Armstrong. That is a huge factor in why our offense can't stretch the field right now. It's damn impressive that we're still able to move the ball with short to intermediate passes and a running game.

[tiger187126]

If we get stuffed??

Up until we went Fun N Gun, the Rams hadn't even hinted at stopping Torain.

And given the way Rex was playing, I don't think it was a good thing to put the game in his hands.

Did you even watch the game today?

so there was no chance he was going to get stuffed?

what game were you watching? was it a college game with a division 1 against a division III school?

assuming is what has you explaining why you got too predictable at the end of a game.

we don't have a pro bowler on that line and stretch plays were what got us all these yards, so why would that leave you to believe we could just jam it down their throat?

oh, i'm sorry maybe you don't understand the game.

[DieselPwr44]

so there was no chance he was going to get stuffed?

what game were you watching? was it a college game with a division 1 against a division III school?

assuming is what has you explaining why you got too predictable at the end of a game.

we don't have a pro bowler on that line and stretch plays were what got us all these yards, so why would that leave you to believe we could just jam it down their throat?

oh, i'm sorry maybe you don't understand the game.

The FACT that late in the game on 3rd and 1 Torain ran straight downhill to salt the game away and allowed Rex to take a knee? You know, the same Ryan Torain that had 135 yards on 19 carries??

The Rams were not stopping the run game today...but Kyle Shanahan sure could.

[jaydogg3eb]

All I can say is that some of you guys are idiots. May God have mercy on your souls.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I have some major issues with the OC, but when a QB turns the ball over 15 times in 8 games as he has here in DC that's on him. Nobody else.

Hail.

[worstSeat]

It's a good sentiment. The end of the 2nd today when it's a 3rd and 1, played conservatively, with an unnecessarily TO to make the clock run as far down as possible, do they run? No, they call a quick pass where Rex tosses the ball to the wrong team. You nearly go in to half time up 14-7.

You know Rex makes mistakes. If you decide to play conservatively, do so. If you have Rex pass anything other than a screen when you've just run down the clock, you didn't really know what you've got at QB.

[DieselPwr44]

All I can say is that some of you guys are idiots. May God have mercy on your souls.

Wow! What insight!! CBS and FOX are missing out on a gem.........

[grego]

All I can say is that some of you guys are idiots. May God have mercy on your souls.

please explain.

[ADF]

All I can say is that some of you guys are idiots. May God have mercy on your souls.

You may not agree with what some people are saying, but you have to bring more to the table than that.

[grego]

I have some major issues with the OC, but when a QB turns the ball over 15 times in 8 games as he has here in DC that's on him. Nobody else.

Hail.

rex is turning the ball over too much, but today, one pick was his fault. im just real uncomfortable with the OC, and i wasnt til after last weeks game. now, i'm not so sure.

[worstSeat]

Would you have Zorn back? Or Gibbs and his old fashioned offense calling in Saunders to blow the dust off his 600 page play book? How about Spurrier?

Gibbs' "old fashioned offense" took the Skins to their first playoff victory since Norv, and their second since, well, his own.

I still think the biggest impediment to Gibbs II's success was, well, Portis' shoulder injury in the preseason. But the second was Al Saunders. He should have trusted the old fashioned approach. During his second run, Gibbs was, if anything, as self-doubting as his laugh would imply.

So yes, bring Gibbs back. Or keep Shanahan. Either works. ;^)

[jaydogg3eb]

You may not agree with what some people are saying, but you have to bring more to the table than that.

The way I see it is... our offense played one bad quarter today. Unfortunately, that one bad quarter could have cost us dearly. I dont think Kyle's playcalling is nearly as bad as what people are saying, although I do disagree with his choosing to throw the ball on the start of that Interception drive. I like this team right now. Rex needs to find a way to stop turning the ball over. Plain and simple, that's the thing we have to fix most over the bye week. Our defense is there. Our kicking team didnt screw anything up today. Our running game is there for the most part. Now we have to keep Rex from fumbling/throwing into ridiculous places.

With that being said, you guys act like we lost the game. Be happy that this projected 3-13 team is 3-1 and at the top right of our division right now. Everyone in the division is about to lose today but us. We went into St. Louis, didn't play very well offensively, and managed to win the game. Lets hope we fix the issues during the bye.

[tiger187126]

The FACT that late in the game on 3rd and 1 Torain ran straight downhill to salt the game away and allowed Rex to take a knee? You know, the same Ryan Torain that had 135 yards on 19 carries??

The Rams were not stopping the run game today...but Kyle Shanahan sure could.

you mean like when rex missed a wide open moss for a first down?

blaming a OC for a qb not being able to make a basic 3 yard throw is just hilarious.

i get it, you just assume that we can line up and run the ball down someone's throat even though we don't run up the middle at all.

so you want your RB going east and west on a 1 yard play because that's where those yards came from.

seriously, if grossman could get his game up to average this game would have been a blowout and we would be 4-0.

[grego]

The way I see it is... our offense played one bad quarter today. Unfortunately, that one bad quarter could have cost us dearly. I dont think Kyle's playcalling is nearly as bad as what people are saying, although I do disagree with his choosing to throw the ball on the start of that Interception drive. I like this team right now. Rex needs to find a way to stop turning the ball over. Plain and simple, that's the thing we have to fix most over the bye week. Our defense is there. Our kicking team didnt screw anything up today. Our running game is there for the most part. Now we have to keep Rex from fumbling/throwing into ridiculous places.

With that being said, you guys act like we lost the game. Be happy that this projected 3-13 team is 3-1 and at the top right of our division right now. Everyone in the division is about to lose today but us. We went into St. Louis, didn't play very well offensively, and managed to win the game. Lets hope we fix the issues during the bye.

didnt rex only throw 1 INT today (that was his fault)?

how was kyles playcalling last week? i thought it cost us the game more than any other factor.

[Fred Jones]

If Kyle had a real QB to run his offense, I think you would see better play calling. He can only call what Rex can execute. Rex can't roll out, thus Kyle can't call those plays too often.

I wish we could stick Rodgers in this offense under Kyle and see how well he does. Then everyone would be praising his play calling. Not saying Kyle is great, but he is better than the critism.

[THEREALTOR1]

You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has games, and those games have to be won by men with helmets. Who's gonna do it smurf85? You? You, mi6? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for Rex Grossman and you curse the Redskins. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Grossman being the starting quarterback, while tragic, probably wins games. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins games! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want Grossman with the ball! You need Grossman with the ball! We use words like "evaluation", "conditioning", "protections". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent gameplanning something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the victories that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide them! I would rather you just said "Thank you, Go Skins," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a headset, and stand on the sideline. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

[SAP_Pete]

And how many years offensive experience do you have at the college or pro level?

Oh, you can't criticize a coach if you're not a coach yourself ? That's ridiculous.
I've watched football longer than Kyle is alive, does that count ?

[Bang]

Who do you blame for a win...


umm..
Is this a trick question?


Anyway, so if we're looking to assign blame for the bad playcalling or the bad passes or anything like that, I will nominate the Big dude himself:
http://www.the-atheist.com/wp-content/themes/NewTA/God.png

God.
That's right. It's God's fault.

Look, every time a team wins we get to hear about how God guided that fumble into their hands or made them catch that touchdown... so it stands to rason that if God is always helping out one team but not the other, then it's God's fault that Rex threw 2 bad picks, and Kyle called too many passes..

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ry0ApgzGYus/TK98vMaciWI/AAAAAAAAFN8/XRLxS99j670/s1600/God.jpg
And yay I sayeth unto thee, ****eth the Redskins, and Rex Grossman may sucketh upon the loser's root. For I am thy Lord, and I have accepted the Rams and the points.

http://www.turnbacktogod.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Sacred-Heart.jpg
And verily, by the Weber grill upon mine breast, I doth root for the Rams. Kurt Warner be-ith mine homeboy.


Hey.. if he gets the credit..

~Bang

[DieselPwr44]

you mean like when rex missed a wide open moss for a first down?

blaming a OC for a qb not being able to make a basic 3 yard throw is just hilarious.

i get it, you just assume that we can line up and run the ball down someone's throat even though we don't run up the middle at all.

so you want your RB going east and west on a 1 yard play because that's where those yards came from.

seriously, if grossman could get his game up to average this game would have been a blowout and we would be 4-0.

When it's 3rd and 1 and the opponent has shown no inclination whatsoever about stopping the run and your QB has already turned the ball over and came close two other times before hand.....

You have to be smart enough as a coach to run the dang ball and take out the risk of turning it over. At the very least, you run more time off the clock and you punt.

Kyle has yet to understand this concept. Apparently, you don't either.

[worstSeat]

If Kyle had a real QB to run his offense, I think you would see better play calling. He can only call what Rex can execute. Rex can't roll out, thus Kyle can't call those plays too often.

But that's also the point. You have Grossman as your QB. Your ability to playcall is directly connected to your ability to playcall for your personnel.

If they had Barry Sanders, they could call a much different game too. They don't. You don't measure ability with personnel as an excuse. You measure ability as what you do with what you've got.

[clskinsfan]

Blame for what? Being 3-1.

[jaydogg3eb]

Blame for what? Being 3-1.

Another big reason why I called these doubters idiots. Blame for what? Winning?

[DieselPwr44]

Blame for what? Being 3-1.

Happy to win, excited about 3-1, pleasantly surprised!!

This is about unnecessarily shooting ourselves in the foot or putting ourselves in bad spots when the OC apparently doesn't understand the game situation.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's great to be 3-1 at the quarter pole,we just have alot to work on.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2011 at 07:36 PM ----------


another big reason why i called these doubters idiots. Blame for what? Winning?

rif.........

[skinsfan4life7]

Only one of the interceptions was Rex's fault today. Moss should have caught that one pass and it bounced off of him into the hands of the defender. The other interception was a terrible pass and was thrown right to the St Louis defender. That being said, I was very dissapointed in the play-calling today. Kyle Shanahan tried to get fancy in the 2nd half and continued to throw when we were bruising the defense with the run game. We were up 17-0 and had a 2nd and 3 at around the Rams 25 when Grossman threw the first interception. If you keep running the ball there, even if we get stuffed two more times, you run another minute or so off the clock and take another 3 points to go up 20-0. Our defense played better than the 10 points given up, it was the offense that was responsible for all 10 of the Rams points. I am really liking what I am seeing on defense. One touchdown given up in the last 2 weeks...and it was off of a turnover by Rex which gave them a short field.

[skins island connection]

I'd throw blame at both.
1] What is with Cooley playing FB? Ne has lost weight, and doesn't have the strength needed for it.
2] With Rex dropping back, he seems to focus alot on 1 receiver. Is he allowed to audible at all?
3] Kyle is ok, but I wouldn't put him in the top 20 playcallers. It is nice to see them get out of the run run pass punt routine, but Davis lit it up the 1st game, now he's a ghost; I rarely see any screens, and his roll-outs are to Rex's weak side, and he had I think Gaffney wiiiide open for the 1st down but focused downfield.

Its better than it was last year, and I'm glad for that, but the Rams game should have been over in the 2nd qtr; but he pulled Torain out and put HT back in, then Helu, which didn't seem like a totally bad idea, but Torain was bruising and on a mission, and HT just didn't seem to have the gas today, which should have sent a message early to rest him for the game and leave Torain in...

[WesB]

Rex did his best to lose the game with some bad INT's, but Kyle did blow it by not running the ball more. Torain was tearing them apart. If you are ahead in a game, you give the ball to the hot hand which was Torain in this game.

[tiger187126]

When it's 3rd and 1 and the opponent has shown no inclination whatsoever about stopping the run and your QB has already turned the ball over and came close two other times before hand.....

You have to be smart enough as a coach to run the dang ball and take out the risk of turning it over. At the very least, you run more time off the clock and you punt.

Kyle has yet to understand this concept. Apparently, you don't either.

run it with the only RB to fumble for this team this year?!

thank you ladies and gentleman, i will end it on that note. i'm not going to listen to a guy blame a coach that puts up 200 yds rushing for having guys wide open only to see his veteran qb miss them.

[skinsfan4life7]

Running the ball with any of our 3 RB is a safer option on 3rd and 1 when we are leading then putting the ball in Rex's hands. Our game plan should be to run as many plays as we can without having Rex trying to make too many plays. Run the ball and make the down to go minimal, and throw for the first. That is our game, we don't go deep. Play good defense and control the ball on offense. We have given up the least points in the NFC through 4 games, and we are top 5 in the NFL in time of possession on offense.

Now we have two solid weeks to rest up and plan for a tough divisional game vs Philly.

[Fred Jones]

Of course it is great to be 3-1. But, to sit and close a blind eye to the long term problem is having a lack of vision. I like Rex and really hoped he had made that jump this season. After four games he has not. No one to blame, just hope they are putting lots of time scouting QB's for the next draft.

And, my point about Rodgers is that Kyle could then call a play and not have to worry about the QB making a stupid mistake that turns the ball over. Rex could easily have had third pick this game. Every game the offensive coordinator has to figure out which play or plays his QB is going to mess up. Making his job more difficult.

[skinsfan4life7]

Rex is not our solution at QB and that is just fine for now. The plan this year is for him to manage the game because he knows the system. Hand the ball off to our three headed monster and make a play here and there when we need a key first down. He is not different than he was before, he is more experience but that's about it. He still lacks a lot of physical tools that a typical NFL QB has. Therefore, we cannot be mad at Rex for his play. We knew what we were getting with Rex coming into the season. We obviously had a choice in the offseason to draft Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, or Andy Dalton. Our front office decided they didn't like any of those guys and decided to draft defense and build a team that is stout defensively and good at running the ball. Looking at our team as a whole, we are pretty set at most positions except for QB. Nobody expects Rex to play at a Pro Bowl level, but it is expected of him to play at an average level this year to hopefully get us to 9-10 wins and have a shot at the playoffs. This will be a good situation to transition the team onto a rookie QB that we draft this coming offseason. No, we are not going to get Andrew Luck unfortunately, but we will take a QB in the first round most likely. I think we should have our eyes set on someone like Landry Jones of Oklahoma. I don't think we will have our rookie QB start right away, but that is okay. We will have our team good and ready to go for the young QB to come in and take us to that next level. The future looks bright for the Skins.

HTTR

[DieselPwr44]

. i'm not going to listen to a guy blame a coach that puts up 200 yds rushing for having guys wide open only to see his veteran qb miss them.
A guy who put up 200 yds rushing and then abandons that part of his game when we only need 1 yard.

Thanks for making my point.

[DieHard86]

the first pick was Moss's fault, the second pick was Rex's and Kyle's fault--Kyle should know how dangerous Rex is at that point in the game

[FuriousD]

A guy who put up 200 yds rushing and then abandons that part of his game when we only need 1 yard.

Thanks for making my point.

That 3-1 call was working right up to the point where Grossman overthrew Moss. There was nothing wrong with the call. It was poor execution. I would like to see your guarantee that running it was going to net a first down. But you don't have one do you? It could just as easily been a muffed hand-off or missed block that gets Torrain dropped for no gain. Poor execution end drives. End of story!

[DieselPwr44]

That 3-1 call was working right up to the point where Grossman overthrew Moss. There was nothing wrong with the call. It was poor execution. I would like to see your guarantee that running it was going to net a first down. But you don't have one do you? It could just as easily been a muffed hand-off or missed block that gets Torrain dropped for no gain. Poor execution end drives. End of story!

Put it to a poll: Which is safer? Rex Grossman throwing in traffic or Ryan Torain (who's already over 100 yds rushing and averaging 7 yards a carry) running the ball?

I think we all know the answer to that if your honest with yourself.

Some here just choose to be obtuse.

[MrJL]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.

I agree Kyle is calling poor games

[mzkp54]

I think Kyle's success came when he had a QB and a WR that were capable of making the plays. We have neither. I am pretty peeved however that since AA has been out we have seemingly abandoned the deep ball. We have other receivers that can go deep, and taking away our best deep threat does not mean we should abandon the deep ball IMO. I think Kyle needs to develop a better understanding of who his weapons are and plan accordingly. We are a team with strengths at RB and defense. Understand that. Embrace it. Stop trying to play like you have Andre at WR.

[THEREALTOR1]

Put it to a poll: Which is safer? Rex Grossman throwing in traffic or Ryan Torain (who's already over 100 yds rushing and averaging 7 yards a carry) running the ball?

I think we all know the answer to that if your honest with yourself.

Some here just choose to be obtuse.

didn't ATV have a few dropped balls today that we were fortunate enough to fall on?

[DieselPwr44]

didn't ATV have a few dropped balls today that we were fortunate enough to fall on?

Had one where the defender put his hat/shoulder on the ball.

[seriously]

you mean like when rex missed a wide open moss for a first down?

blaming a OC for a qb not being able to make a basic 3 yard throw is just hilarious.

i get it, you just assume that we can line up and run the ball down someone's throat even though we don't run up the middle at all.

so you want your RB going east and west on a 1 yard play because that's where those yards came from.

seriously, if grossman could get his game up to average this game would have been a blowout and we would be 4-0.



Thank you, you just presented your own fault in ur argument. If Rex is THAT BAD, like so many say he is... Then WHY RISK A 3rd and ONE YARD????

[THEREALTOR1]

Had one where the defender put his hat/shoulder on the ball.

yeah I had to go back and look, seemed like the announcers were yelling "loose ball" more often than that (then again they were manloving all over the rams so that doesn't really suprise me). So yeah statistcally it would be a safer bet to run the ball with ATV who only had 1 turnover on 19 attempts vs Rex throwing the ball who had 2 picks in 29 attempts (although one questionably can't really be blamed on rex when he 89 right on the hands).

I was suprised looking at the box score that we were split 40runs /29 passing, seems liked we passed more than that today.

[MrJL]

I dont think it's Kyle fault because a 196 yards is enough to establish the run.

The defense at certain points were just focusing on the run, but thanks to Torrain great power running it din't show too much.



Kyle gets into a groove, a rut and then picks weird times to change up. The D is focusing on the run, so he switches to passes, but not high percentage passes. Play action, play action, play action, rollout, rollout, rollout

[Spooky]

I am in the minority. I thought Kyle called a good game.

[GSF]

KS has an uncanny ability to outsmart himself at the worst possible times. He did it in the Dallas game and again today.

[cubanl81]

Yeah while I don't think it was the best called game. I think he will get into a groove and call an awesome game for Philly. I would be alot more pissed if the running game and D didn't look so damn good. I really thought we were going to hold them without a TD. Was disappointed when Jackson got that TD after that idiotic roughing the passer penalty.

[skins4eva]

And how many years offensive experience do you have at the college or pro level?

Oh you got me. The old "you're fan, you're view doesn't mean much if i disagree with it because you have no pro experience." I'm just calling it like I see it, like all of us. Kyle sucks as an offensive coordinator. Fact.

[Jeffro]

I think Kyle called a fine game, even though we are 3-1 we obviously still have a lot of question marks. It was clear to be that Rex is scared to throw the deep ball, I counted 5+ plays where it was clear the deep ball was called and he checked down and didn't even give it a go. Rex isn't good throwing quick passes on blitzing downs. Even though we are 3-1 I personally wouldn't be upset to see Beck get a chance to play. I honestly believe our offense is hampered by him big time.. It pains me that we're in an awesome position but so limited at QB.

The other issue I have is why we are still feeding Hightower, he is too quick to kick toward the sidelines instead of busting the runs up field. I think he leaves plenty of running yards on the field in every game. Go watch the first quarter running by Hightower then watch the differences when Helu in, when he saw contact coming he at least tried to head up field. Torain was just a beast just heading up field and playing with power.

Defense continued to play very very well. I think we've got an extremely bright future and I'm completely excited by this team but we have absolutely got to find a way get a QB. If it wasn't for how well the defense was playing we would be in trouble. I would say that everyone owes Haslett an apology because he has made our defense stellar. If we could pickup another decent corner and a few more key defense players including a QB I could see us running deep in the playoffs.

[MrJL]

KS has an uncanny ability to outsmart himself at the worst possible times. He did it in the Dallas game and again today.

yeah, I agree. It's like he assumes the plays are working because he's outsmarting the D, not because the offense is executing. So he has to adjust away from the game plan because the D will smarten up. Where if he kept doing what he was doing they'd continue executing

[Silencer6091]

The play action on 1st and 10 when it was time to run the ball just blew my mind...

[tiger187126]

Oh you got me. The old "you're fan, you're view doesn't mean much if i disagree with it because you have no pro experience." I'm just calling it like I see it, like all of us. Kyle sucks as an offensive coordinator. Fact.

"calling it like i see it" and Fact don't belong in the same sentence.

opinion is what you are actually putting out there, i'll give you some time to realize the difference.

[santanathegreat]

The problem is that Kyle has too much faith in a noodle-armed bum that is destined for failure. I'm not sure what he sees in Grossman that makes him want to pass so much, but he needs to limit Grossman's throws, and therefore the mistakes.

[THEREALTOR1]

Oh you got me. The old "you're fan, you're view doesn't mean much if i disagree with it because you have no pro experience." I'm just calling it like I see it, like all of us. Kyle sucks as an offensive coordinator. Fact.

No, that doesn't make it a fact, that makes it your opinon, as you put it "just like all of us".

[jnhay]

Oh you got me. The old "you're fan, you're view doesn't mean much if i disagree with it because you have no pro experience." I'm just calling it like I see it, like all of us. Kyle sucks as an offensive coordinator. Fact.
The fact is that there were several plays called that should have been successful. When the QB hesitates when there's a wide open receiver, or overthrows a guy ten feet away that's not the playcaller's fault!



The problem is that Kyle has too much faith in a noodle-armed bum that is destined for failure. I'm not sure what he sees in Grossman that makes him want to pass so much, but he needs to limit Grossman's throws, and therefore the mistakes.
I totally agree. But a coach should expect his qb to bounce back, which Grossman failed to do.

[TD Riggo]

Kyle's playcalling hasn't been good for a couple of weeks! He's like a kid with ADHD. He calls a good mix of run plays with pass plays. We start picking up some nice run yardage and start controlling the clock. Then, all of a sudden, he starts calling 90% passing plays that result in a string of 3-and-outs, completely abandoning the run which got us into a lead.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2011 at 09:43 PM ----------


The problem is that Kyle has too much faith in a noodle-armed bum that is destined for failure. I'm not sure what he sees in Grossman that makes him want to pass so much, but he needs to limit Grossman's throws, and therefore the mistakes.


.. and .. what is YOUR suggestion that he do? Give the job to Beck, who proved that he was inferior to Grossman? yeah. THAT'S the answer :rolleyes:

Until we have another first round draft pick, it is what it is. And the rest is just a futile pissing contest.

[Seabee1973]

No. It is up to the QB to execute the plays that are called or to check out of them. This are Rex's issues, not Kyle's.

Kyle is to blame for not running out the clock in Dallas though.

Kyle is aggressive so we are not gonna sit or run out many games he wants points on the board and to move the chains but it doesnt always work the way its drawn up to be

[tiger187126]

The problem is that Kyle has too much faith in a noodle-armed bum that is destined for failure. I'm not sure what he sees in Grossman that makes him want to pass so much, but he needs to limit Grossman's throws, and therefore the mistakes.

wouldn't you call 40 runs to 29 passes limiting?

[Bibby]

Oh you got me. The old "you're fan, you're view doesn't mean much if i disagree with it because you have no pro experience." I'm just calling it like I see it, like all of us. Kyle sucks as an offensive coordinator. Fact.

Kyle Shanahan Houston Texans OC 2008:

Total Offense: 382.1 YPG (3rd in the NFL)
Passing: 266.7 YPG (4th in the NFL)
Rushing: 114 YPG (13th in the NFL)

2009:
Total Offense: 383.1 (4th in the NFL)
Passing: 290.9 (1st in the NFL)
Rushing: 92.2 (31st in the NFL)

2010:
Total Offense: 335.9 (18 in the NFL)
Passing: 244.6 (8th in the NFL)
Rushing: 91.3 (30th in the NFL)

It's no secret that Kyle Shanahan likes to go through the air. It was a reason we brought him in here in the first place. Paired with his father who is a running back guru this should (in time) be a great combo. Your "fact" comment is an opinion. He's a young and up and coming offensive coordinator. He hasn't been in the league 10+ years calling plays so he is still learning the ropes. He knows how to coach an offense and once he has the right personnel that can execute like Houston fans will be praising him.

[Dirt]

Maybe it's cause I was out of football world for the evening, but coming home from work and reading things like "Kyle just doesn't know football" is either hilarious or enraging. yea ok, he just doesn't know. What a bum, he should probably just work at a starbucks.

A bunch of you guys are talking about all these plays in hindsight, and you're saying these things with such a ****ty attitude, after a WIN. You're calling Kyle an idiot and you want Rex benched. Just what in the hell did you expect this season? This is GREAT so far. The defense looks AWESOME. Torain is back out of nowhere. WERE 3-1.

Look, all QBs have bad games(yes, ALL, just the elite ones not as often) and on a day when the Skins have two hundred yards running the ball, Rex has a buck fifty passing which makes sense, but he did look pretty messy. I'm not even mad about the picks, that horrible throw across his body on the run that was batted down, thank god, was his worst play of the game IMO. Other than that, he overthrew moss, and went deep at least once where he had 2 guys wide open closer. Meh. I mean, why is it when Rex has a bad day, it's so much different than other QBs that do throughout the league. "ohh! there's BAD REX". What about bad Matt Ryan, or bad Sanchez, or bad ROMO FOR CHRISSAKES! hahah.

They are forever forgiven, but Rex is not allowed to do anything wrong and must post 100+ QBRs before people want TO REPLACE HIM WITH JOHN BECK. Say that out loud. Pretend you're not a skins fan and say that out loud. Come on yall.

I really hate to sound like such a Rex lover, I'ts not like that... it's just ridiculous how quickly he's jumped on. He's your quarterback, why don't you try to support him at least a little. He's got your team 3-1. God damnit.

Can we please just laugh at the Cowboys?

[MrJL]

Maybe it's cause I was out of football world for the evening, but coming home from work and reading things like "Kyle just doesn't know football" is either hilarious or enraging. yea ok, he just doesn't know. What a bum, he should probably just work at a starbucks.

A bunch of you guys are talking about all these plays in hindsight, and you're saying these things with such a ****ty attitude, after a WIN. You're calling Kyle an idiot and you want Rex benched. Just what in the hell did you expect this season? This is GREAT so far. The defense looks AWESOME. Torain is back out of nowhere. WERE 3-1.



I think the people who want Rex benched and are calling Kyle and idiot are two different groups. And he's had these same problems for a couple games in a row, so I think Kyle needs some work. He may be able to design plays but he can't seem to use them in a way that really establishes a rhythm

[skins4eva]

"calling it like i see it" and Fact don't belong in the same sentence.

opinion is what you are actually putting out there, i'll give you some time to realize the difference.

Wow. Thanks. I love how seriously some of you take yourselves on this board.

---------- Post added October-2nd-2011 at 11:15 PM ----------


Kyle Shanahan Houston Texans OC 2008:

Total Offense: 382.1 YPG (3rd in the NFL)
Passing: 266.7 YPG (4th in the NFL)
Rushing: 114 YPG (13th in the NFL)

2009:
Total Offense: 383.1 (4th in the NFL)
Passing: 290.9 (1st in the NFL)
Rushing: 92.2 (31st in the NFL)

2010:
Total Offense: 335.9 (18 in the NFL)
Passing: 244.6 (8th in the NFL)
Rushing: 91.3 (30th in the NFL)

It's no secret that Kyle Shanahan likes to go through the air. It was a reason we brought him in here in the first place. Paired with his father who is a running back guru this should (in time) be a great combo. Your "fact" comment is an opinion. He's a young and up and coming offensive coordinator. He hasn't been in the league 10+ years calling plays so he is still learning the ropes. He knows how to coach an offense and once he has the right personnel that can execute like Houston fans will be praising him.

Just out of curiosity--has there been a drop off in the Texans offensive production since Kyle left?

[tr1]

Jeebus...we just won a football game, and crap threads like this appear.

Get real fellas.

[TE#80]

Why do we have to assign blame? We won, be happy for twelve seconds without blaming someone for us almost losing. Were not the best team in the NFL, we need to take wins anyway we can get them, sneak into the playoffs and see what happens. The Eagles go into every game thinking anything less than blowing a team out is unacceptable, they are now 1 and 3.

[THEREALTOR1]

Maybe it's cause I was out of football world for the evening, but coming home from work and reading things like "Kyle just doesn't know football" is either hilarious or enraging. yea ok, he just doesn't know. What a bum, he should probably just work at a starbucks.

I agree Dirt, seeing the same threads over and over again, regardless of whether the team wins or loses is aggravating to say the least, but I guess thats what a NFL teams message board is supposed to be about, I guess :whoknows:

As someone who tries to look at other teams boards in weeks leading up to our games against those teams, I tend to think this board is special in the sense that it does have a large base of very football intelligent people, however it also has a large number of members who are more fans by name and not so much by definition.

fan: An ardent devotee; an enthusiast. supporter, lover, admirer, follower, freak :)

Somewhere along the line, the sports fan became less concerned about the accomplishments of their respective teams, and more concerned with how those accomplishments are achieved. This is how we end up with all of these armchair gm's/qb's, who, due to their success of playing a video game thats meant to simulate the sport in which their respective team competes in, its of their opinion that its no longer satisfactory for their team to simply be successful, but that success is only achieved if the team accomplishes their goal while doing so in a manner that satisfies the fans' desires. Fortunately i'm sure there are still plenty of fans who find gratification in simply rooting for their team to be successful. Fans who simply respect the fact that the actual contributors of that team certainly have as much (and in most cases much, much more) of a desire to succeed in their respective sport, for that is their responsibility as a participant, while it is simply my role as a fan to support them.
:logo:

[FuriousD]

Put it to a poll: Which is safer? Rex Grossman throwing in traffic or Ryan Torain (who's already over 100 yds rushing and averaging 7 yards a carry) running the ball?

I think we all know the answer to that if your honest with yourself.

Some here just choose to be obtuse.

As I said, there's no guarantee of success either way is there? You line up on 3-1 late in the game fully expecting to see 7, 8 or 9 defenders in the box. You can elect to run up the gut and into the teeth or try off tackle and hope the safety isn't up to the task or you can line up in a running formation and attempt a pass. You can play 3-1 every which way to Sunday but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans if you don't execute.

Speaking of polls, how many 3-1's do you think there were today? I'm going to say, a bunch. If you were to poll all the head coaches who ran 3-1, I will bet you that 100% of those coaches who saw there team execute them badly would want them back to do over and all that saw their call executed as planned were happy with the result.

This isn't as simple as you would like it to be. Runs on 3-1 don't always work. Passes on 3-1 don't always work. There are 2 teams playing out there and for every high pertantage play you think you're dialing up, there is a guy on the opposite sideline dialing up another high percentage play he likes. Something has to give and the victory usually goes to the team that executes better.

[MartinC]

The FACT that late in the game on 3rd and 1 Torain ran straight downhill to salt the game away and allowed Rex to take a knee? You know, the same Ryan Torain that had 135 yards on 19 carries??

The Rams were not stopping the run game today...but Kyle Shanahan sure could.

I hope he stops the run every week if it produces close to 200 yards rushing.

[seriously]

Jeebus...we just won a football game, and crap threads like this appear.

Get real fellas.

You're right, crap threads attract crap posts... thank u.

[DieselPwr44]

You're right, crap threads attract crap posts... thank u.

I didn't know a thread about situational football got you and tr1's panties in such a twist?

Maybe discussing football is not your cup of tea and you should find the Cosmopolitan message board?

[Probos]

They are forever forgiven, but Rex is not allowed to do anything wrong and must post 100+ QBRs before people want TO REPLACE HIM WITH JOHN BECK. Say that out loud. Pretend you're not a skins fan and say that out loud. Come on yall.

I really hate to sound like such a Rex lover, I'ts not like that... it's just ridiculous how quickly he's jumped on. He's your quarterback, why don't you try to support him at least a little. He's got your team 3-1. God damnit.

Can we please just laugh at the Cowboys?

Overall, I would grade Rex's first four games at a C+. The Skins are 3-1, so people tend to give the benefit of the doubt.

But Rex has not gotten the team to 3-1,....he's contributed, but really the defense is the real reason the team is 3-1. Rex's play has gotten progessively worse each game. I hope after the bye week he comes out looking better but I'm a believer that he is what he is. He'll make some good passes, throw some TD's but also turn the ball over at almost an equal pace. He's done this over his career.

I root for anyone the Skins have at QB, I'm a fan, and I hope he does better, but I don't think he will. He'll continue to play the way he has which will not be good enough considering the rest of the schedule.

Oh, I love to laugh at the Cowboys.

[celticsalmon]

I questions and concerns about about Junior's play calling but the blame belongs to Rex. Last year the D struggled as Haslett implemented his system. Rex is struggling to adapt to this system. But next year, when we get a QB most of the pieces will be in place. Think of what the play calling would look like with a Tom Brady under center.

[Rocky21]

Kyle Shanahn is in love with the pass play. He would **** a passing play if he could. You ain't callin' plays in Southern Texas anymore.

I don't think he understands that you need a running game to win in the cold, win and rain that inevitably happens in the winter months up and down the Eastern Seaboard where we play all of our home games and half of our away games against division opponents.

[ktfirehouse]

It seems like too many Skins fans are trying to convince other Skins fans to shut up and be happy about us being 3-1. And if this 3-1 record was a dominating 3-1 start then most of us would be.

Kyle calls horrible plays at the worst times, and since chances are they are passing plays, don't look for Grossman to audible even if it is a better decision. Its a mixture of both of them. Its still undetermined as to who the leader of the offense is. THATS the one thing that redskins can never seem to answer and until its answered, it will always be "who's the blame?" Mike won't talk to Kyle, Kyle won't admit his mistakes, Grossman won't complain at all because he fears he'll lose his starting spot, Moss is gettin unreliable, Cooley isnt getting work, Fred Davis isnt being utilized, BUT we find ways to win because the DEFENSE is keeping points off the board.

Hats off to the Skins for being 3-1. But we are exposed on offense. God help us. HTTR

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd give Rex more slack if he didn't have so many missed interceptions, I think the numbers he ends up having balances out well, some bad luck, some good luck, etc. As far as i know we are top 10, probably top 5 after this game in run carries. So its not like we are just riding completely on Rex's shoulders. the protection in the last 2 games in particular has been good IMO. Still we are top 5 in giving up turnovers. With our opportunistic defense we still give up the ball more than we take it. hard for me to put most of this on Kyle.

[Skins Wingman]

I questions and concerns about about Junior's play calling but the blame belongs to Rex. Last year the D struggled as Haslett implemented his system. Rex is struggling to adapt to this system. But next year, when we get a QB most of the pieces will be in place. Think of what the play calling would look like with a Tom Brady under center.

rex knows this system better than anybody. his problem is he cant execute... and if we get a new QB next year hes gonna pick the system right up huh?

[Skinsinparadise]

other thing is guys like Moss and cooley swear by Kyla and say they love how he calls a game, its one of the things that Moss cited about why he was resigned. In converse, except for the initial good will when he was hired, players weren't saying they love Zorn's play calling.

Edit: I'd go for aggressive play calling over the Joe Gibbs II style of trying to run out leads and getting burned when we give the ball back to the opponent for one last drive.

[diehardskinpsoup]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.



Amen. I'm glad I'm not th eonly one that sees this. Rex can work harder at his decision making. I still believe Kyle always deliberately screws Rex. Just because Kyle LOVES TO PASS. If a team can not stop your running game. You are an absolute moron if you feel the need to pass. 3rd and 3. Torrain is reaking havoc. We still have the lead. Why not run to the left where it has worked all day. Just dumb. I blame pick 1 on Santana. Pick 2 on Kyle's bama ***.

[GaryGreenMonk]

I agree that Kyle and Rex are both having issues.

One INT was on Moss... the other was a horrible bonehead throw that Rex should have never done but it was also a bonehead playcall in that circumstance.

That said... where's our TE's the last 2 games? What happened to Davis? Why don't we use playaction, especially when you're ripping the runs off? Why does Kyle keeping calling the play that rolls Rex out to his left?... the results are disasterous every time.

Kyle definitely needs to get his head otu of his ass and I hope his Dad gives him a talking to over the next couple weeks.

[Saqs]

There was nothing wrong with the play calling in this game IMO. They came out (rightfully) looking to go deep with hard play action passes after seeing Torrey Smith light them up last week. They tried it again after establishing the run and Rex made a poor decision. It happens.

[windsofcreation]

Kyle is a beast. Everyone is seeming to forget how inept our offense was before he arrived.

[ECU-ALUM]

Kyle needs to recognize that running the ball and shortening the game is NOT A CRIME! The 2nd int that Rex threw I was creamng at the TV, "WHY ARE YOU THROWING NOW? WORK THE CLOCK!"

There has to be a happy medium between Marty-Ball and being pass happy.

[authentic]

Yeah Kyle's play calling really ruined Schaub in Houston. He just doesn't understand football..

See, i understand this was a sarcastic comment, but its EXACTLY the point!! I don't understand why folks can't get it. :doh:

[Scamp1]

Hes the coaches son. Period

[authentic]

Kyle needs to recognize that running the ball and shortening the game is NOT A CRIME! The 2nd int that Rex threw I was creamng at the TV, "WHY ARE YOU THROWING NOW? WORK THE CLOCK!"

There has to be a happy medium between Marty-Ball and being pass happy.

so what do you do when they stack 8 or 9 in the box with 5 mins. left in the game? At some point you have to throw the ball. I'm not saying that Kyle is perfect, but poor execution shouldn't be dismissed either.

[planter]

Sure, bad blocking & route running can cause some INTs but the turnover is Sexy Rexy's alter ego.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

so what do you do when they stack 8 or 9 in the box with 5 mins. left in the game? At some point you have to throw the ball. I'm not saying that Kyle is perfect, but poor execution shouldn't be dismissed either.

For the game, Torain rushed 10 times on first down, averaging 8.3 yards per carry. His average was inflated by a 39-yard gain, but his median gain on first down was 5.5 yards.

Rushing Torain in that situation (first down, 5:45 to play) gave a 50% chance of a 5.5+ yard gain and a 100% chance of burning off an extra half minute on the game clock. You run Torain until the Rams prove that they can keep Torain from getting a first down on three attempts.

Mike Shanahan said after the game that Torain was running like a man "possessed." When finally given the chance to close out the game (final possession), Torain delivered. Three straight runs including a conversion at 3rd and 3. If it worked with 2:11 on the clock, it works with 5:45 on the clock.

The Rams had no answer to Torain. However, Kyle did.

Kyle is a very smart OC, but he sometimes is tone deaf for situational football. Passing on first and 10 with 5:45 to play was dumb with a total stiff in the backfield. With Torain in the backfield, playing like he did against the Rams, it's completely absurd, bordering on showboating.

I felt the same way when he had Austin running deep on third down as the primary option against the Cowboys. Happened twice, and it killed two drives. Those are plays you run with Armstrong in the game, not with Austin in the game.

It feels to me that Kyle plays a great Madden game by being unpredictable, but lacks a sense of situational football and playing to the strengths of his players. Rolling Grossman out left and then having him throw to the right? Has Kyle actually watched Grossman do this? It's so hard to watch, I can't imagine it ever looked good in practice.

In these situations, he's not playing to strengths, he's playing Madden.

[Skinsinparadise]

For the game, Torain rushed 10 times on first down, averaging 8.3 yards per carry. His average was inflated by a 39-yard gain, but his median gain on first down was 5.5 yards.

Rushing Torain in that situation (first down, 5:45 to play) gave a 50% chance of a 5.5+ yard gain and a 100% chance of burning off an extra half minute on the game clock. You run Torain until the Rams prove that they can keep Torain from getting a first down on three attempts.

Mike Shanahan said after the game that Torain was running like a man "possessed." When finally given the chance to close out the game (final possession), Torain delivered. Three straight runs including a conversion at 3rd and 3. If it worked with 2:11 on the clock, it works with 5:45 on the clock.

The Rams had no answer to Torain. However, Kyle did.

For me though it takes me back to Gibbs 2 -- I didn't keep count but i know we lost multiple games by trying to milk the clock with the run game and giving the opponent another possession. It seemed to me that Portis was often stopped in the 4th quarter in similar situations where the opponent knew the run was coming. Rely on the run let the defense win the game for us -- didn't always work out. I was there for the buffalo game post S. Taylor's death, I recall that game went down to that script specifically. Buffalo marched down and scored.

I get Kyle's thought about get the first down and put the game away as opposed to likely giving the opponent one more shot.

[ECU-ALUM]

so what do you do when they stack 8 or 9 in the box with 5 mins. left in the game? At some point you have to throw the ball. I'm not saying that Kyle is perfect, but poor execution shouldn't be dismissed either.

I Don't disagree with you point taken...but there is a fine line between being daring and being fool-hearty...if they got 8-9 in the box then yes (a pass into the flat would've been a good call)...but for most of the game Torian was just crushing them and our O-line was doing a solid job against them all day...The Rams didn't have an answer for Ryan.

All that being said...3-1 and on top of the division...not bad at all.

BTW since most of the "experts" at ESPN had Washington winning only 3 games this year...should we just go ahead and end the season now?

[Rocky21]

Good point ASF on Kyle's lack of understanding of situational football.

[81+83+84=Posse]

Honestly, I didn't like the game plan from the start yesterday. The Rams are last in the league against the run and 13th against the pass. Why come out with play action after play action? Once they did start running the ball, look what happened. When Grossman threw the 2nd pick on first down, I was irate about not running.

Also, getting burned again with a 0 blitz on a third and long! Time to stop using that in that situation.

[Saqs]

Honestly, I didn't like the game plan from the start yesterday. The Rams are last in the league against the run and 13th against the pass. Why come out with play action after play action? Once they did start running the ball, look what happened. When Grossman threw the 2nd pick on first down, I was irate about not running.

Also, getting burned again with a 0 blitz on a third and long! Time to stop using that in that situation.
Look at Torrey Smiths stats from last game. And that play wasnt a zero blitz. The look was but the play wasnt.

[SwampEm]

They are 3-1, and a Sav Rocca botched snap from being 4-0. Who cares if we aren't getting style points from the QB?

[seriously]

I didn't know a thread about situational football got you and tr1's panties in such a twist?

Maybe discussing football is not your cup of tea and you should find the Cosmopolitan message board?

I was being sarcastic- since I was the one who started the thread. But thanks cool guy

[Botched]

I blame Kyle and Rex equally for this win.

[81+83+84=Posse]

Look at Torrey Smiths stats from last game. And that play wasnt a zero blitz. The look was but the play wasnt.

You don't gameplan because of that. Particularly because Armstrong was out. When a team can't stop the run, and you have a decent running game, you should run the ball until they stop it, especially when you don't have a great passing game.


And on the blitz, regardless if all 8 men rushed or not, it still leaves the DBs in a difficult situation. It isn't necessary in 3rd and long circumstances.

[Bang]

Honestly, I didn't like the game plan from the start yesterday. The Rams are last in the league against the run and 13th against the pass. Why come out with play action after play action? Once they did start running the ball, look what happened. When Grossman threw the 2nd pick on first down, I was irate about not running..

Because the Rams are last in the league against the run and 13th against the pass.
That is why you do what the Redskins did.

If you're the Rams and you're pretty good on pass D, and you're facing erratic Rex Grossman, what do you try to do right off the bat?
You try to hide your pathetic run D, you stack the line, try to shut down the run and make a statement, attack and get the crowd behind you....

So we throw immediately off of play action, over and over.. with reasonable success.
By the 7th or 8th play, the Rams didn't know what to cover, and their LBs and safeties backed off.
And lo and behold, the worst run defense in the league was instantly vulnerable. We insert Helu and the back side holes opened right up.

Just as you can run to set up the pass, you can pass to set up the run.
When we ran the stretch early with Hightower, they strung it out with men crashing down the line. When Torain ran the same thing later, the guys crashing aren't there, and the holes are huge. The first guy hitting Torain is a safety eight yards downfield.

~Bang

[dreamboater]

Because the Rams are last in the league against the run and 13th against the pass.
That is why you do what the Redskins did.

If you're the Rams and you're pretty good on pass D, and you're facing erratic Rex Grossman, what do you try to do right off the bat?
You try to hide your pathetic run D, you stack the line, try to shut down the run and make a statement... you aren't going to take advantage of our bad run D,, you must beat us with Rex.

Been arguing this idea since yesterday. Teams game plan around what they think will happen then adjust. If they play the run and you dont pass you can move the ball. Maybe our fans would have been happier running 3 straight times and going 3 and out? Have to keep the D guessing or it becomes too easy regardless of a team rating.

So we throw immediately off of play action, over and over.. with reasonable success.
By the 7th or 8th play, the Rams didn't know what to cover, and their LBs and safeties backed off.
And lo and behold, the worst run defense in the league was instantly vulnerable. We insert Helu and the back side holes open right up.

Just as you can run to set up the pass, you can pass to set up the run.

~Bang

[seriously]

I blame Kyle and Rex equally for this win.

haha- that's the way to look at it. The point though, is I don't agree at all with the target on Rex's back.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

So we throw immediately off of play action, over and over.. with reasonable success.
By the 7th or 8th play, the Rams didn't know what to cover, and their LBs and safeties backed off.
And lo and behold, the worst run defense in the league was instantly vulnerable.

That sounds good, but doesn't square with what actually happened.

What happened:


Hightower did his 3-yard-per-carry thing. 8 for 24 freaking yards.
Helu did his 4.4-yard-per-carry thing. 8 for 35 freaking yards.
Torain entered the game and ran like a man "possessed" (Mike Shanahan's words)


Here are Torain's first 5 runs:

1st and 10: 7 yards
2nd and 3: 20-yard TD run
1st and 10: 2 yards
2nd and 8: 7 yards
1st and 10: 39 yards


Here are Hightower's first 5 runs:

2nd and 10: 2 yards
1st and 10: 5 yards
2nd and 5: (-2) yards
1st and 10: 6 yards
1st and 10: (-2 yards)


Total after 5 runs:

Torain: 75 yards
Hightower: 9 yards


That's what happened.

Here's another thing that happened: our brainy OC took about 3.5 games to figure out that Torain should be the starting RB on first down.

Let's not chalk up running success in any way to Kyle. He's a brilliant passing strategist, but it shouldn't have taken 3.5 games to hand the ball once to Torain, the leading rusher in 2010.

That might have cost the Cowboys game, along with other factors.

[tibbidoe]

Unless the play being called is designed to create a turnover for the other team, the only person that can be blamed is Rex.

How many fumbles does he have from when he's being hit? Is that Kyle's fault? No. Every QB in the league gets sacked. Is it the fault of the OL that Rex often seems to let go of the ball to cover his eyes before he hits the ground? No.

Are the WRs throwning the ball in the wrong places, to themselves? No. Does Rex have some sort of painful punishment coming if he just throws the ball away instead of trying to force it? At this point, hopefully.

I'm starting the see why people have said that the '06 Bears made their run in spite of having Grossman back there. He's supposedly a gunslinger like Brett Farva, but the result is often more Barney-ish.

I get, and fully appreciate, that we are 3-1. The fact that we could/should be 4-0 doesn't really matter. What I'm not happy about is the "Coin Toss" Grossman. He's like a box of chocolates...

I'm not saying Beck would have done any better. I'm past him, too. I just can't wait for us to draft "our guy" at QB.

HTTR

[diehardskinpsoup]

For the game, Torain rushed 10 times on first down, averaging 8.3 yards per carry. His average was inflated by a 39-yard gain, but his median gain on first down was 5.5 yards.

Rushing Torain in that situation (first down, 5:45 to play) gave a 50% chance of a 5.5+ yard gain and a 100% chance of burning off an extra half minute on the game clock. You run Torain until the Rams prove that they can keep Torain from getting a first down on three attempts.

Mike Shanahan said after the game that Torain was running like a man "possessed." When finally given the chance to close out the game (final possession), Torain delivered. Three straight runs including a conversion at 3rd and 3. If it worked with 2:11 on the clock, it works with 5:45 on the clock.

The Rams had no answer to Torain. However, Kyle did.

Kyle is a very smart OC, but he sometimes is tone deaf for situational football. Passing on first and 10 with 5:45 to play was dumb with a total stiff in the backfield. With Torain in the backfield, playing like he did against the Rams, it's completely absurd, bordering on showboating.

I felt the same way when he had Austin running deep on third down as the primary option against the Cowboys. Happened twice, and it killed two drives. Those are plays you run with Armstrong in the game, not with Austin in the game.

It feels to me that Kyle plays a great Madden game by being unpredictable, but lacks a sense of situational football and playing to the strengths of his players. Rolling Grossman out left and then having him throw to the right? Has Kyle actually watched Grossman do this? It's so hard to watch, I can't imagine it ever looked good in practice.

In these situations, he's not playing to strengths, he's playing Madden.


Atl Skins fan gets it! That's what I am saying. Yes Kyle has brought a personality to our offense we havent had in years. However, it cancels it out completely when you feel this burning sensation that makes you call pass plays, when it's not necessary. Screw a pass. If a team cannpt stop you from running the run run run run run run run....It's not rocket science. Kyle hasn't figured that out yet.

[authentic]

For me though it takes me back to Gibbs 2 -- I didn't keep count but i know we lost multiple games by trying to milk the clock with the run game and giving the opponent another possession. It seemed to me that Portis was often stopped in the 4th quarter in similar situations where the opponent knew the run was coming. Rely on the run let the defense win the game for us -- didn't always work out. I was there for the buffalo game post S. Taylor's death, I recall that game went down to that script specifically. Buffalo marched down and scored.

I get Kyle's thought about get the first down and put the game away as opposed to likely giving the opponent one more shot.

Me too. this is why I would think twice before killing Kyle on that play. Before we played too scared to close out games and teams knew it. This is not to say that we shouldn't play smart, so ASF i get what you're saying. But it was an opportunity to close the game out on an aggressive/unpredictable call. Had the play been successful we would be here praising the playcalling. But because Rex couldn't get his head out his ***, we're here describing the call as nonsense.

[Bang]

That sounds good, but doesn't square with what actually happened.

What happened:

.

No, what happened in context of what I'm saying is that we threw the ball 6 out of the first seven plays.
We ran the ball one time in our first two possessions. The reason why we did that is what I was writing about. The plan was predicated on the likelihood of the Rams trying to stack against their largest vulnerability early and force us into having to use rex to get back in the game. Maybe cause a big mistake early, like they have to us the last two straight times they've played us.

~Bang

[authentic]

Atl Skins fan gets it! That's what I am saying. Yes Kyle has brought a personality to our offense we havent had in years. However, it cancels it out completely when you feel this burning sensation that makes you call pass plays, when it's not necessary. Screw a pass. If a team cannpt stop you from running the run run run run run run run....It's not rocket science. Kyle hasn't figured that out yet.

I hear you, and in theory you guys are right. But i can perfectly understand why Kyle called that play. What Kyle needs to understand is that we don't have Shaub or A. Johnson on this team.

[diehardskinpsoup]

Blame Rex, Blame Wrs (Armstrong and Moss for hand popping Free Ints to the defenses this season) and Blame Kyle RefusetostickwiththerunAHAN. I'm still not totally mad at Rex and he should not be benched. 2 of his Ints this season are 100% WRs fault. He's gotta work on the other ish. He's managing games well, just scares the bejeezus out of us late in games. He'll get better. My opinion won't change y'all who will continue to doubt. I realize now some of you live to be negative. You sit up all night waiting for something bad to happen. Those of y'all with that attitude, need to just stay seated in the corner when we get our wildcard spot. Non believers.

[Geneva]

Kyle is calling the games based on what he thinks the other team believes we are going to try. Run when he thinks that they will drop back into pass coverage and sometimes pass on 3rd and one. Look, the skins are 3-1 going into our by week. Lets just sit back and keep our fingers crossed. We may make the post season. By the way I will take Rex over JC any time. As long as we can run the ball Rex will be able to take some shots down field. All teams try for the deep ball....

[kevinklein]

We're 3-1. At this point I'm not in favor of anybody taking a seat.

[authentic]

I'm not saying Beck would have done any better. I'm past him, too. I just can't wait for us to draft "our guy" at QB.

HTTR

Absolutely!!

[skins island connection]

Honestly, I didn't like the game plan from the start yesterday. The Rams are last in the league against the run and 13th against the pass. Why come out with play action after play action? Once they did start running the ball, look what happened. When Grossman threw the 2nd pick on first down, I was irate about not running.

Also, getting burned again with a 0 blitz on a third and long! Time to stop using that in that situation.
I will agree with ya on that; going to the well too often will be costly.
Greg Williams's blitz pkgs had every man up on the line, chucking receivers at the line, slowing/stopping/disrupting their routes, and it was called at strategic times in the game. Of course we had the players back then to run it, and it was a ballsy call which worked. When I see the zero blitz called, I see alot of guys at the line, but cb's are playing 10 yds back; any qb will see the blitz and know to get the ball out quick, but the cb's can't get to a slant route in time to cover it.
It would be nice to see this revamped, and against the law to be called back to back...

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

But because Rex couldn't get his head out his ***, we're here describing the call as nonsense.

No.

Here's how I know you're wrong. As soon as I realized Rex was passing on first and 10, long before the interception, I was literally yelling at the TV (to Kyle) "WTF are you doing?"

I didn't expect the INT, but I did know that the odds were about 45% for getting an incompletion and (ironically) forcing passing situations on second and third down. Running on first down in that situation (especially with Torain running as he was), was straight-up stupid, regardless of outcome. If you don't know this, I can't help you.

[Shawn12]

This is a tough one. It's obvious to everyone we don't have the necessary weapons to be explosive like Kyle's days with Houston. With that said, you can't just tailor the play calling only to the extent of our talent. I know that sounds funny, but we aren't trying to be Superbowl contenders. We're trying to build a team and we need the players to be pushed to excel. We need to set the bar of expectations where it needs to be and let people either step up or sit down. All the while, the play calling tries to stay in reality of what we can actually do with our talent. I think its a tough balancing act and could account for a lot of the struggles Kyle has. Based on what i've seen so far, we could have an upgraded QB, but I doubt we have much more success passing. Our WR core just isn't quite there really. It seems like we never get separation and only can get open finding a soft spot in a zone. No ability to create a play. No double move and torch a team deep. No go up and win a jump ball by force. Makes the play calling tough when your passing ability is that limited.

[milliondollarslim]

blame for winning or losing

[VRIEL1]

I have a theory..... I think the team is limited to only part of the play book for some reason. Maybe it's because Armstrong is not on the field to stretch the field and teams can stack the box and double Moss or something similar. The screen play seems to work each time they use it but they hardly use it. I'm sure I'm totally missingit but there has been very few slants. Moss was the go to guy with slants in short yardage.

I know Moss is getting older but has he lost a lot of speed or is the team trying to cut down on ham string injuries with him cause I hardly see him in the go route anymore? It seems it's always Armstrong, Stallworth, or Gaffney who is going long. Moss seems to be relegated to 15 to 20 yrds tops.

In any event Grossman needs to do a lot of work with Niles Paul, Austin, and Hankerson. Grossman seems to rely too much on Moss and Armstrong. The team needs to take Cooley out of the FB roll cause he's not working out well there. Hopefully Yound can get back to health during the bye or use Sellers as the FB. On another note.... where was Davis in game 4? they used him for 1 screen pass which gained about 7 yrds.

[authentic]

No.

Here's how I know you're wrong. As soon as I realized Rex was passing on first and 10, long before the interception, I was literally yelling at the TV (to Kyle) "WTF are you doing?"

I didn't expect the INT, but I did know that the odds were about 45% for getting an incompletion and (ironically) forcing passing situations on second and third down. Running on first down in that situation (especially with Torain running as he was), was straight-up stupid, regardless of outcome. If you don't know this, I can't help you.

I'm not looking for you to help me with anything. As i've already said, i understand what you are saying and why, Its perfectly logical. But i also understand why Kyle called the play, thats my point.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

No.

Here's how I know you're wrong. As soon as I realized Rex was passing on first and 10, long before the interception, I was literally yelling at the TV (to Kyle) "WTF are you doing?"

I didn't expect the INT, but I did know that the odds were about 45% for getting an incompletion and (ironically) forcing passing situations on second and third down. Running on first down in that situation (especially with Torain running as he was), was straight-up stupid, regardless of outcome. If you don't know this, I can't help you.

One more thing. Exceptionally stupid actions in football seem to bring out the wrath of the gods. I can't explain why, but I surmise that even the players know that what they are trying to do is really stupid, and so this distracts them and causes them to perform poorly.

"Rocket screen" ring a bell in Redskins Super Bowl history?

Giants punting to DeSean Jackson. Garo Yepremian trying to throw a pass on blown FG. Joe Pisarcik fumbling to lose game on last play.

Do we need a lesson in situational football and the wrath of the gods for stupid plays? Roll tape:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1Ixd3jiGU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUr_oXh6h_o


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkE7OVc8Rw

[diehardskinpsoup]

Sad I come on here and feel more depressed than when I'm on neutral NFL sites. I will never change my outlook. I think we will continue to get better THIS season. Hopefully it will shut some of this negativity up. After the bye I think we are going to become a very very dangerous team. Healthy and Hungry.

[VRIEL1]

Sad I come on here and feel more depressed than when I'm on neutral NFL sites. I will never change my outlook. I think we will continue to get better THIS season. Hopefully it will shut some of this negativity up. After the bye I think we are going to become a very very dangerous team. Healthy and Hungry.

Yeah this is what I don't get. Cerrato sells the team for every big named player he could get and it amounted to BS. The team hires MS and Allen and DS gets out of the way. People love to throw whom ever they love to hate under the bus everytime they get a chance. It's all DS's fault, MS is not a good HC the team needs to fire him, KShanahan doesn't know what he's doing, Grossman sucks bring on Beck, start Torain, etc etc etc.

The team is 3-1 going into their bye. Hopefully the team will come out healthier then before they went into the bye and hopefully they work on some of the mistakes we have seen, but for some reason fans just can't seem to enjoy the teams positives.

[Rabsuz]

I thought he called a pretty decent game, so sue me I guess.

The thing that annoys me is that Kyle gets in a rut with his playcalling, he will run it about 10 times in a row, it doesn't matter if they stop it or get gouged, he instantly changes to like 5 playaction calls in a row then just normal passes and so on and so forth. He needs to mix it up, in my opinion. But I thought it was a pretty decent game called by Kyle, I think the offense needs to step up when the pressure gets going in the 4th quarter, more importantly Rex, who I think gets slammed more than he should (note: I don't think he's that great). I think Kyle needs to diversify his playcalling a little more and change it up instead of the normal crests and troughs.

But then again, what do I know about playcalling, I can't do any better. But for now, I'm okay with Kyle as OC, but I don't like the father-son tandem aspect, it leads to too much politics in the coaching world, I mean let's say Kyle is like the worst thing to ever grace the Redskins somehow, would Mike be able to fire his own son?

[Chris Worthy]

I think threads like this are started because most fans just want to watch the game, watch their team blow out whoever they play, and really, I mean really sit back and enjoy the game without the edge of your seat last play to the wire outcome thats become a staple of the Redskins.

We see the potential of how good the team can be and when mistakes happen, it takes the air out of you and you want to start pointing fingers at what needs to be fixed. I remember a couple of years back when Kyle was named the OC we had a couple of Texan fans come in and post just how Kyles playcalling will leave you scratching your head sometimes. He wants to throw it first to setup the run but you need the QB to do that. We are limited with Rex for now.

The silver lining is when you win like this with areas of improvement that needs to be addressed, the team has the potential to be a consistent winner for years to come.

[VRIEL1]

^ Rome wasn't built in a day. Funny how fans know it takes about 3 yrs minimum to get the team where it needs to be with a new HC, but for what ever reason they feel the need to complain that it didn't happen over night. The team got the scheme in their first yr. They beefed up the defense and running game in their second. How about we be patient and hopefully the team fixes their QB and passing issues by next year before everyone wants to throw in the towel.

[Skinsinparadise]

Me too. this is why I would think twice before killing Kyle on that play. Before we played too scared to close out games and teams knew it. This is not to say that we shouldn't play smart, so ASF i get what you're saying. But it was an opportunity to close the game out on an aggressive/unpredictable call. Had the play been successful we would be here praising the playcalling. But because Rex couldn't get his head out his ***, we're here describing the call as nonsense.

Agree. It's not like asking Rex to complete a 10 yard passing play on a down that wasn't an obvious passing down is asking for the moon. I don't mean this sarcastically but ASF is the guy telling us how Rex Grossman is a special QB. if Rexy is that good, make that throw, ESPECIALLY in a game where the running game was working. Its not like we are asking him to lob a hail Mary for a victory.

I love Gibbs, but in his 2nd tenure, I learned to get a bad feeling when he would just run at the end, take time off the clock, and give the opponent one more try. We were burned multiple times that way. I don't think mixing one short/medium pass in the mix of plays is us being that daring. The one time I didn't like Kyle's play calling was in Dallas, early in the 4th quarter where he was disproportionally throwing the ball when we had the lead. Towards the end of this game we weren't disproportionally throwing and IMO it rarely works when you exclusively do any one thing without mixing it up even if its just a little.

[authentic]

IMO it rarely works when you exclusively do any one thing without mixing it up even if its just a little.

Absolutely!!! :)

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I love Gibbs, but in his 2nd tenure, I learned to get a bad feeling when he would just run at the end, take time off the clock, and give the opponent one more try. We were burned multiple times that way. I don't think mixing one short/medium pass in the mix of plays is us being that daring. The one time I didn't like Kyle's play calling was in Dallas, early in the 4th quarter where he was disproportionally throwing the ball when we had the lead. Towards the end of this game we weren't disproportionally throwing and IMO it rarely works when you exclusively do any one thing without mixing it up even if its just a little.

That sounds great, but it still ignores context then and context now.

Context then: running game was rarely dominant, aside from the Portis "carry the team" stretch runs in late 2005 and 2009.

Context Sunday: Rams couldn't stop Torain. If they stop Torain for the first time on first down, than still burns an extra 30 seconds on the clock and gives two more chances. If the pass fails on first down, the clock stops, and now second and third down are passing downs. Very possible to go 3 and out with almost no time consumed on the clock.

Again, Torain's median run was 5.5 yards on first down. The Rams couldn't stop him before, and they couldn't stop him for three straight runs later in the game, with 2:11 to play. The right play on first down was always a run.

Against Dallas, the complicating factor was that rushing had largely failed against the Dallas defense. (Would have been nice to see Torain in that game.) So, there is your classic devil's trade: "run and probably fail, but burn the clock" vs "pass and risk not burning the clock but have chance for a drive."

I was annoyed by the play calling late against the Cowboys, but I understood it. The call on first and 10 against the Rams, 5:45 to play, made me furious. The difference was context.

Also, the emergence of the defense as a dominant force is now a factor. With a dominant defense, the OC can afford to burn 3 minutes off the game clock and punt (the risk of being conservative) when he has a dominant defense to protect the lead. You pass in those situations only when you don't trust your defense to hold the lead.

Remember when Belichick went for it on 4th and 2 from his own 28, against Peyton Manning and the Colts, when the Patriots had a 6-point lead and only 123 seconds to go? Crazy stuff, but that was Belichick saying that the team would rather win or lose the game on offense than depend on their defense to stop Manning.

The Redskins are now in the opposite position. They have a dominant defense (#3 or #4 in NFL) and an NFL-average offense. In that situation, the offense works the clock and grinds the ball on the ground. That was the smart play even without Torain playing like he was. With Torain on fire, it was the *only* play.

I watched Mike Shanahan's press conference after the game, and he went out of his way to deflect the rabid and leading reporter criticisms about Grossman. He squarely blamed Moss and Hightower for failing to make key catches (Moss created the first INT), and didn't take the bait about the second INT. My read? He was furious with the play call, like I was.

Rex didn't have a great game, but I didn't blame him for either INT, for different reasons. I really want to see coach's film to see what was going on downfield all game. It seemed like the deep routes went off into oblivion, and of course we don't see most of those routes when the QB elects not to pass deep. I want to see exactly how a "real" franchise QB would have put in a dominant performance, throwing to all those open guys who are out of the camera view.

Seemed like the Rams were playing coverage and daring Rex to make dumb mistakes. Which he avoided until that last stupid 1st and 10 play-action pass call with 5:45 to play. Even then, the Rams played the INT from the snap. They had learned to ignore play action and instead double up Moss and Davis. That's why the INT happened: the MLB dropping back underneath, giving double coverage to Moss.

Yes, Grossman should have lobbed it over the LB or thrown it away. But, the play was dumb from the start. By the end of the game, Moss was targeted 10 times for 5 completions, 2 INTs, 1 TD. He was tightly covered all game. Grossman knew this. He also knew that he needed to avoid an incompletion to keep the clock running. That's a stupid distraction for a stupid play, which tends to result in a pass being forced. Avoiding one bad play (incompletion, clock stop, 2nd and 10) results in a worse play (interception).

[darrelgreenie]

I agree w/ most of your post just wanted to point out this miscocpetion about the Dallas game.
I've been saying since last year, Kyle is a pass 1st OC and is always gonna think pass first.
I just hope that his style won't limit the running game too much.


Against Dallas, the complicating factor was that rushing had largely failed against the Dallas defense.The lone scoring drive against the Cowboys came late in the 3rd qtr and was lead by Hightower and Hightower based play-action passing (including the TD pass):

5 runs (all Hightower) for 20 yards, 4.0 yards per carry
After this drive^^ the play calling 2 runs vs 11 passes.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

The lone scoring drive against the Cowboys came late in the 3rd qtr and was lead by Hightower and Hightower based play-action passing (including the TD pass):

5 runs (all Hightower) for 20 yards, 4.0 yards per carry
After this drive^^ 2 runs vs 11 passes.

You're right. I was trying to give Kyle some greater credibility for how he handled the end of the Cowboys game, but I felt the same way at the time.

I guess I'm saying: however bad it was against the Cowboys, it was worse in context against the Rams.

Someone needs to remind the OC that, late in the game, the job of the NFL-average unit (offense) is to avoid losing a game that the dominant unit (defense) is winning.

Then we had the 3rd and 21 blitz (8 men), and I was reminded that both coordinators were trying to show off at times. Each was going for their big knockout blow. Unnecessary. Rushing six would have been fine. That's pressure without recklessness.

[thesubmittedone]

You know, the defense gets played to play as well and Lauranaitis (spelling?) made a great play. That's all that was. It wasn't the play that was called (which actually worked as intended, as it totally sucked up the LBers because they were just waiting for us to give it to Torain) and it wasn't really Grossman because, when he turned around after the play fake, Lauranaitis was running for his life to get back into the zone he was responsible for in the middle of the field, so all Grossman saw was a LBer that was sucked into the play fake running with his back turned to the ball to get to Moss. He pulled the trigger and Luaranaitis made a great play, literally turning his head at the very last second to see the ball right there. It was impressive how fast he reacted to it... I'm not going to get carried away by it. Everything on that play worked except the Rams Lber made a very athletic and impressively quick recovering type play.

I just can't hang Kyle nor Grossman for it. The other team exists for crying out loud. They are NFL players. He made a great play, give him credit, and move on. I want Kyle to call that every time and I want Grossman to throw that every time... except maybe a tad bit higher with more touch, lol.

If Kyle doesn't call a play action anymore when the defense obviously is waiting for us to run it, thereby faking the heck out of them, and Grossman stops throwing the ball to a wide open Moss who ran a stick route after a play fake where the LBer bit and is running back to it with his back turned, we'll be worse off in the end. You call it, run it, execute it and you don't expect many LBers to make that play.

Please call it and run it like that again and again Kyle and Rex. Don't listen to anyone.

[skinsfan242]

I have one comment on Play Calling. NO-ONE on here knows what is a good good play call or bad play call. It's about execution. You can't just run 20 straight times with a lead and you can't just pass 20 straight times when down. Mix it up. If it works out it looks good if it doen't it looks bad. Play action pass when the run is working is usually a good call, if you execute.

We will never know if it was a good call or not, we just know the result...You just have to make the play.

[thesubmittedone]

I have one comment on Play Calling. NO-ONE on here knows what is a good good play call or bad play call. It's about execution. You can't just run 20 straight times with a lead and you can't just pass 20 straight times when down. Mix it up. If it works out it looks good if it doen't it looks bad. Play action pass when the run is working is usually a good call, if you execute.

We will never know if it was a good call or not, we just know the result...You just have to make the play.

No, it was actually clear that is was A GREAT playcall. Even the commentators commented on how well the play action sucked the Lbers in. They were so focused on stopping Torain that it was exactly what you call. Lauranaitis made a great play, period. One in which he probably doesn't make 9 times out of 10. It was unfortunate for us that he turned his head the split-second he did and his eyes were able to find the ball that quickly, and it was extremely fortunate for him and the Rams. I think Moss maybe telegraphed it a bit because Luaranaitis saw Moss stand there in anticipation for the ball before he saw anything else, which caused him to look back that instant only to find the ball right in his area. Grossman should've put the ball just a tad bit higher, but oh well... it was still a decent throw. I like to see my QB throwing the ball against LBers and DBs that have their back turned. The elite QBs all do that. Guys don't get wide open in the NFL, so you have to.

One of the things we murdered Campbell about here was that he always waited for the received to be really wide open, especially early in his career here. I like that Grossman isn't doing that.

[sportjunkie07]

i dont think so.

i have seen no substantial evidence to support the claim that kyle is a bad playcaller. usually its just people whining about playcalling in hindsight.

what i have seen is a slight turnaround (for the better imo) of the redskins offense since kyle came to town.

i have also seen him take a non existant offense of the texans and turn into a annual top 5 offense.

with more time, i think kyle will do the same here, but for now, our offensive ceiling is limited because we are missing pieces for a great offense, namely an elite qb and elite playmakers.

[skinsfan242]

No, it was actually clear that is was A GREAT playcall. Even the commentators commented on how well the play action sucked the Lbers in. They were so focused on stopping Torain that it was exactly what you call. Lauranaitis made a great play, period. One in which he probably doesn't make 9 times out of 10.

I thought that was a Great Play call to be honest. I'm just speaking in more general terms overall on this board, people preaching about play calls and the way people react to them.

[thesubmittedone]

i dont think so.

i have seen no substantial evidence to support the claim that kyle is a bad playcaller. usually its just people whining about playcalling in hindsight.

what i have seen is a slight turnaround (for the better imo) of the redskins offense since kyle came to town.

i have also seen him take a non existant offense of the texans and turn into a annual top 5 offense.

with more time, i think kyle will do the same here, but for now, our offensive ceiling is limited because we are missing pieces for a great offense, namely an elite qb and elite playmakers.

I'd say elite playmakers are more important right now. Grossman can get it done. He's not elite, but so isn't about 28 other QBs in the league. In my mind, only Rivers, Rodgers, Brady and Manning are elite and can carry a team with WRs that have no business being in the NFL and a non-existent running game. All of the other guys are much more dependent on the team supporting them as well, including Grossman.

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 02:51 PM ----------


I thought that was a Great Play call to be honest. I'm just speaking in more general terms overall on this board, people preaching about play calls and the way people react to them.

Oh, I know you were. :)

I was also reacting to the general tone on the board as well as this thread, not really you... though it may have seemed so.

And you know what else? I can't agree with the sentiment right now that we needed to play it more safe. Do the elite teams in this league do that? Honestly, we've never had that killer instinct and I'm glad our coaches are creating it right now in this team. No, we haven't actually executed yet and the other teams have made some miraculous plays in the process, but do I want them to change on that?

Absolutely not. I think it's funny that in back-to-back games we got burned on a "killer instinct" call on both sides, first with defense and now with offense. That's leading into the bye week as well. Very cool. We'll have time now to look at those things and fix that "killer instinct" call just a tad bit up. But you definintely don't stop making it. No way. Haslett should call that play all the time, except instead of a zero coverage you make it a zone and send one less on the blitz. Kyle should call that play a million times over... the LBers of the Rams got faked out of their boots... we just need to execute it a tad better and Grossman maybe throws that ball a bit higher. We can work on those things right now, but I refuse to be angry about the fact that we're going for the kill now late in games.

That is awesome if you're a Redskin fan that has had to endure extreme conservative playcalling for so long now. I don't even fault Gibbs for that... I don't think he had the team to be aggressive. I think we do right now.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

i have seen no substantial evidence to support the claim that kyle is a bad playcaller.

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

[thesubmittedone]

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

You've got to have an ego to be great. You've got to believe in yourself, that you can finish a team. I don't mind it, and I don't think it's as stupid a call as you're making it. It's actually humble in a sense that you don't want the other team to have more chances since you know that giving it to them can lead to worse things. I don't think Haslett and Kyle are stroking their egos when making those calls. I think they honestly felt that would hurt them the most. I don't like Haslett's call more than I don't like Kyle's there (actually, I LOVE Kyle's call there). I think Haslett took too much of a risk with Romo, knowing full well that's where Romo makes his plays, by moving around and playing street ball. Any other immobile QB would've gotten screwed on that play, but Haslett decided Romo wasn't moving like he normally does I guess... which was true.

[darrelgreenie]

You're right. I was trying to give Kyle some greater credibility for how he handled the end of the Cowboys game, but I felt the same way at the time.

I guess I'm saying: however bad it was against the Cowboys, it was worse in context against the Rams.Oh, no I agree.
Just sayin that Kyle has shown these tendencies since he's been here.
And it likely he'll always think pass first.
I can't help but feel like the greatest rev limiter for the running game isn't the RBs or the OL but Kyle.


Then we had the 3rd and 21 blitz (8 men), and I was reminded that both coordinators were trying to show off at times. Each was going for their big knockout blow. Unnecessary. Rushing six would have been fine. That's pressure without recklessness.It hard for me to argue individual play calls because so much goes into each.
Its Kyle tendencies that bothers me more than that singular playcall.
Haslett's play call on 3rd and 21 isn't a call I would prefer, but it don't think it was bad call either.
Not to re-hash but 6 rusher vs max protect=time.
Romo had been killing them when he wasn't pressured and the ball was actually snapped to him.

How was Tony Romo when given time? 77.3% of his passes were complete. How was Tony Romo when pressured? 35.7% of his passes were completed, with an interception to boot.http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/09/27/re-focused-redskins-cowboys-week-3/

I'm a believer in the thought the answer to a passing game isn't coverage but pressure.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

You've got to have an ego to be great. You've got to believe in yourself, that you can finish a team. I don't mind it, and I don't think it's as stupid a call as you're making it. It's actually humble in a sense that you don't want the other team to have more chances since you know that giving it to them can lead to worse things. I don't think Haslett and Kyle are stroking their egos when making those calls. I think they honestly felt that would hurt them the most. I don't like Haslett's call more than I don't like Kyle's there (actually, I LOVE Kyle's call there). I think Haslett took too much of a risk with Romo, knowing full well that's where Romo makes his plays, by moving around and playing street ball. Any other immobile QB would've gotten screwed on that play, but Haslett decided Romo wasn't moving like he normally does I guess... which was true.

Again, you are arguing generalities (with which I somewhat agree) and I am arguing specifics.

Prior to that "brilliant" play-action pass to Moss, the Redskins offense had been reduced to a very effective Torain rushing the ball, and Grossman being specifically unable to connect with Moss effectively, aside from one very nice TD throw and catch. The Rams were losing, but the one thing they had proven all day was that the Redskins weren't going to beat them with Davis or Moss, who had been Grossman's favorite targets prior to the Cowboys game. They probably copied some tactics from the Cowboys for coverage (I'm guessing), because the results were so similar.

So, the Redskins were doing one thing only that the Rams couldn't stop: rushing Torain. This happened also to be the smart thing to do to kill the clock.

In this situation, you think the "killer instinct" is to throw it to Moss (a low-percentage play to an unreliable target that day). I think the "killer instinct" is to hand the ball to Torain again and again and dare the Rams to stop it.

Have you forgotten the glory days? That is specifically how Gibbs humiliated the Cowboys in the NFC Championship. 50-Gut to Riggins over and over to close the game. The Hogs actually told the Cowboys DL what was coming.

That is total domination, and that is the killer instinct at work.

Passing to Moss is getting cute, ignoring what is working, and putting the focus on how smart the OC is. Maybe he's not so smart. Maybe Torain had actually earned the right for the ball and the honor of running it down the Rams' throats.

Imagine if Torain had run six straight times until breaking one deep for a TD. Brutal stuff. They would have played those highlights all night on ESPN and NFL Network.

That is domination. That is football.

Kyle was playing Madden ... and got burned.

[sportjunkie07]

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

from what i recall, we have had a healthy mix of runs and passes so far this season. also, didnt we run the ball quite a bit in the second half with torain and helu? also, if you are continually gashing with the rb like we were with torain, whats wrong with a play action to put the nail in the coffin?

i do remember one instance late in the second half yesterday that i disagreed with.. it was 3rd and 1. we had plenty of time to call a play, and with our running game working like it was, i was expecting a run. instead we called a timeout and stopped the clock, only to come back with a pass on 3rd and one. i didnt like that play call.

[wildbill1952]

I see this form two different viewpoints. To start the game, the Skins are known as a running team. The safeties are both cheating up to the LOS at the start of the game by more than two steps. I don't see anything wrong starting pass, pass to move those safeties back, helping the running game all game long by keeping the safeties honest. The week before, against Dallas, to start the game, the safeties were cheating up, and everyone expected run. The Skins ran and got stuffed. I think the change on the first plays of yesterday's game were a reaction to that. i.e. Yes the Skins are going to run the ball down your throat, but if you stack the box, they can throw, I don't have a problem with it. The OC should be calling what the opponents don't expect. or at least keeping them honest

End of game: different story. The Skins are trying to run out the clock One first down will wipe out the remaining timeout the Rams have. Still not enough to wipe out all time remaining, but a fresh set of downs, even on first down will get you to the 2 minute warning. I don't have a problem doing the unexpected, the pass play over the middle to Moss. Better than a run that is expected. The execution? Sorry, Grossman hit the linebacker he didn't see in the numbers. That's not an OC problem. That's a QB problem. Is it riskier than what I was comfortable with? A higher percentage pass may have been called for, like a slant for 5 yards or even a screen. But the interception is 100% on the QB.

One thing I did like yesterday is more running in the redzone, at least from the 20 to the 5. But inside the 5, we're still doing too much passing, indicating our OLine, although improved, still lacks the coaches confidence on the goal line. Either the OLine has to improve or teams will know, inside the 5, the Skins pass. That'll lead to a couple of pick sixes if that isn't mixed up a little more.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

You've got to have an ego to be great. You've got to believe in yourself, that you can finish a team.

This is another misconception about that play-action pass to Moss. Finish a team? With that puny pass? :ols:

This was not going to be a knockout blow even if successful. It was 1st and 10, 5:45 to play, Redskins on their 20. Yes, the LB dropped back and intercepted the ball, but Moss was just sitting in a seam in the zone, 18 yards deep. He had two defenders closing on him while the ball was in the air. This is a play that goes for only 20 yards if successful, with 45% chance of success, with exactly the same effect on the clock as a run.

http://67.192.1.89/images/misc/redskins/2011wk4-rams-4q-0545-1.jpg

http://67.192.1.89/images/misc/redskins/2011wk4-rams-4q-0545-2.jpg

Knockout blow? I don't think so. "Success" = 1st and 10, Redskins 40-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock running.

Failure? 2nd and 10, Redskins 20-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock stopped. This is now a much more difficult situation. Rushing is unlikely to pick up the first down ... and so is passing. 2nd and 10 is a very tough situation, compared to 1st and 10.

Catastrophic failure? Interception. (Check) Sack. Fumble. That's what happened.

With a run, the most likely outcome was a 5.5 yard gain, based on prior runs on first down by Torain.

So, Kyle bet a 55% chance of a 20-yard gain was worth the 45% risk of failure or catastrophic failure, instead of taking 100% chance of keeping the clock running and 50+% chance of 5.5 yard gain.

[grego]

Who's saying that? I'm not.

I have a very specific complaint about how much passing Kyle is doing late in the game when the Redskins have the lead.

I think Kyle is a brilliant passing strategist, better than I've ever seen at OC for the Redskins. Late in the game, I think he admires himself too much.

It's sometimes hard for a brilliant, big-ego person to do the obvious, boring, humble thing. This is what causes Kyle to pass when he should run late. It's also why Haslett blitzed 8 on 3rd and 21, and why Romo tried to go for a rushing TD late against the Jets.

They want to be the hero. They'll call it "the killer instinct," etc, but it's just ego getting in the way of smart game management.

i agree with this. overall, his playcalling is probably ok, maybe even good. after what he did vs dallas, i'm going to scrutinize every call he makes cuz the skins should have won that game.(i'm a tad bitter about that game). its like he tries too hard to outsmart the opponent. i would love it, and he'd be a genius, if it actually worked. i dont know if its rex or the WR's or the playcalling or all 3, but its clearly not working.

maybe its a madden generation thing. younger people weaned on madden seem to think like kyle and love it.

[seriously]

I also want to add something, both games are somewhat fresh (Rams & Dallas). We need to go with a more "hurry up" style to keep the defenders from being able to sub out so easily and bring fresh personnel on the field. Not saying to actually snap the ball (unless we can catch them not set or with 12+ on the field) but just get to the line and wait for the call if so needed.

Another mention, Rex called a very important audible- which really broke Torain into the game and set the tempo so to speak... His run prior to the TD Rex changed the play and it worked, beautifully.

I completely agree to the statement that hindsight is 20/20 (although MANY of us were already fearing the play action which was picked off) and it isn't fair to judge Kyle after the fact. But if Kyle is to be respected, he will make some sort of adjustments that indicate he is playing to the strengths of the CURRENT personnel (as any good coach should).

---------- Post added October-4th-2011 at 03:04 AM ----------



So, Kyle bet a 55% chance of a 20-yard gain was worth the 45% risk of failure or catastrophic failure, instead of taking 100% chance of keeping the clock running and 50+% chance of 5.5 yard gain.

Great post man.

[thesubmittedone]

Again, you are arguing generalities (with which I somewhat agree) and I am arguing specifics.

But here, specifically, you are ignoring what is generally true and, therefore, are wrong about it. You can't claim to "somewhat agree" with the generalities I'm arguing and then fault those playcalls as much as you are. They could've been executed better, that's for sure, but they should call games like that.



Prior to that "brilliant" play-action pass to Moss, the Redskins offense had been reduced to a very effective Torain rushing the ball, and Grossman being specifically unable to connect with Moss effectively, aside from one very nice TD throw and catch. The Rams were losing, but the one thing they had proven all day was that the Redskins weren't going to beat them with Davis or Moss, who had been Grossman's favorite targets prior to the Cowboys game. They probably copied some tactics from the Cowboys for coverage (I'm guessing), because the results were so similar.

So, the Redskins were doing one thing only that the Rams couldn't stop: rushing Torain. This happened also to be the smart thing to do to kill the clock.

In this situation, you think the "killer instinct" is to throw it to Moss (a low-percentage play to an unreliable target that day). I think the "killer instinct" is to hand the ball to Torain again and again and dare the Rams to stop it.


lol, Torain was awesome but you're way exaggerating what he did. The Rams did stop him a bunch of times. The killer instinct here is to play action pass and fool them. Kyle was in their head here and the way the LBers got sucked in proved it was the right call. I have no doubt that if we did hand it off to Torain they would've stopped it considering how intent they were on doing so.



Have you forgotten the glory days? That is specifically how Gibbs humiliated the Cowboys in the NFC Championship. 50-Gut to Riggins over and over to close the game. The Hogs actually told the Cowboys DL what was coming.

That is total domination, and that is the killer instinct at work.

Passing to Moss is getting cute, ignoring what is working, and putting the focus on how smart the OC is. Maybe he's not so smart. Maybe Torain had actually earned the right for the ball and the honor of running it down the Rams' throats.

Imagine if Torain had run six straight times until breaking one deep for a TD. Brutal stuff. They would have played those highlights all night on ESPN and NFL Network.

That is domination. That is football.

Kyle was playing Madden ... and got burned.

Are you seriously trying to compare what we've got right now to an 80s era football with what is arguably the greatest Oline to have ever played in football? You do know that, back then, Dlinemen were less athletic, right? You do know that now, in today's NFL, any team in the league that focuses solely on one aspect of an offense will stop it pretty easily, right? It's extremely rare to just keep running the ball and be successful at it. How many coaches need to say "we can't get one-dimensional" or "we need to keep the defense honest" these days before you factor that into your argument here?

Since you decided to give me a brief history lesson, let me give you one that's more recent. Remember that 07 Pats game in which they destroyed us by the tune of 52-7? All week we were talking about Brady and that record-breaking passing game they had going, including our coaches, and few were talking about their running game. What did the Pats come out and do to us? They ran the ball. Over and over and over. We were so focused on not letting them pass on us they destroyed us by running the ball. As soon as we started focusing on the run again, they started passing it. They owned us that game and that's how you call a game. Attack the D's weakness, and don't be one-dimensional no matter how good you think you are at that one thing. The Pats had an historically amazing passing game that year, yet they attacked our D by running the ball.

No, Kyle did the right thing. Instead of allowing the Rams to focus on stopping the run here, which was clearly their intent as the play action absolutely worked in drawing them in, you fake them on it and hit whomever through the air. The killer instinct would not have been to run the ball over and over again there, as the Rams were stacking the line and were bent on not letting us run out the clock doing so. You under-estimate the ability of the Rams defense to stop the run. They kept the Giants, who have one of the best running games in the league, to a pedestrian stat line. It was the right call, and went along with our gameplan as we came out faking the run and it was working well.



This is another misconception about that play-action pass to Moss. Finish a team? With that puny pass? :ols:

This was not going to be a knockout blow even if successful. It was 1st and 10, 5:45 to play, Redskins on their 20. Yes, the LB dropped back and intercepted the ball, but Moss was just sitting in a seam in the zone, 18 yards deep. He had two defenders closing on him while the ball was in the air. This is a play that goes for only 20 yards if successful, with 45% chance of success, with exactly the same effect on the clock as a run.

http://67.192.1.89/images/misc/redskins/2011wk4-rams-4q-0545-1.jpg

http://67.192.1.89/images/misc/redskins/2011wk4-rams-4q-0545-2.jpg

Knockout blow? I don't think so. "Success" = 1st and 10, Redskins 40-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock running.

Failure? 2nd and 10, Redskins 20-yard line, 5:40 on clock, clock stopped. This is now a much more difficult situation. Rushing is unlikely to pick up the first down ... and so is passing. 2nd and 10 is a very tough situation, compared to 1st and 10.

Catastrophic failure? Interception. (Check) Sack. Fumble. That's what happened.

With a run, the most likely outcome was a 5.5 yard gain, based on prior runs on first down by Torain.

So, Kyle bet a 55% chance of a 20-yard gain was worth the 45% risk of failure or catastrophic failure, instead of taking 100% chance of keeping the clock running and 50+% chance of 5.5 yard gain.


Who said that one play would "finish the team"? We're talking about that play, specifically, so the arguments were being made about that play, yet you assume that anyone is saying that one play would've finished them? Now who is generalizing, lol?

And what a bs stat line to pull without factoring what the Rams Defense was doing on that drive. You just pull out what Torain had done up to that point as if the Rams D would play it exactly the same way considering the situation in the game. You think they had no thoughts in their mind about us running the ball to take time off the clock there? Seriously? :doh:

The killer instinct is to not hand the ball off 3 times against a defense trying to stop the run. The killer instinct is to punish them for trying to focus in on one thing and take it away by attacking what they're not focusing in on... which is otherwise known as the "weakness in their D". You're failing to see that all Kyle did there was attack the weakness of the D. That's it. You can't argue otherwise because you're failing to see the defense the Rams were in and how they got sucked in by the play fake. Those are the realities. Luaranaitis made a great play, period, but the play call was excellent and was definitely the killer instinct.

Now, if Ryan Torain was basically owning them no matter what they did and was running for 5 yards a pop every single down, then you can say it was wrong. But that's not what happened and you're exaggerating about how great Torain played (and he definitely played great, but he wasn't "unstoppable" by its literal definition, which you're trying to apply to his day).

---------- Post added October-3rd-2011 at 04:49 PM ----------


Great post man.

You got one with your amazing stat-pulling ability, ASF. :ols:

Poor guy. :pfft:

[Spearfeather]

Hi.....I think you know me..... I'm Kyle Shanahan.

Yeah, ... that's right. OC for the 'Skins. I'm the one that calls those plays that make your head turn around like Linda Blair in the Exorcist. You know. " Wily Kylie ".

Third and one, you wanna leave Torain in and jam that **** up the middle? **** that. I'm bringing in Hightower. That's right, the pass. Gotta work it. I'm flippin' over my hole cards, and shovin' all in. Why?
Because I'm Wily Kylie and that' how I roll.
Second and goal from the seven, Oh! Now you wanna pass? You're a sissy. **** that. We're gonna set up the third and goal from the three, and then stick that **** in there when it really hurt's the most, baby.
You see the old man over there. Yeah, he likes to keep it on the ground. I say screw that ****. The only time I want to keep the ball on the ground is after the game, when I've got my foot propped up on it and my arms folded like the Pirate from the Captain Morgan's commercial. " Got a little Wily Kylie in ya ? " Well if you dont, ...you should.
Third and 12 from their 22. 17 point lead. 10 minutes to go. You wanna run it, kick the field goal and make it a three touchdown game? Screw that ****. That ****s for girls. We're gonna air this ***** out. I'd rather go down in a blaze of glory trying to dominate a team, and lose, than grind out a 17 - 0 win.

I'm Wily Kylie and don't you forget it.

[keecee]

I may be in the minority with this viewpoint, but more than half of Rex's turnovers can easily be blamed on his line or receivers...

If the running game is working, you have the lead- a 2 score one at that... Why do you call that play-action?

Dallas, in the redzone.... WTF is up with that WR screen to Moss?

There are a lot more incidents but I'm trying to keep it short- but I am honestly more in favor of Kyle taking a seat as I am Rex.
He should know he doesn't have all day back there.they are doing a decent job for the most part this year.We'd be okay,if we had a quick thinking qb,that could also scramble himself out of a jam.

---------- Post added October-5th-2011 at 10:19 PM ----------

They are getting that old bad habit of trying to sit on a small lead. With all faults,the offense is better than it's been in the recent past.

[grego]

Hi.....I think you know me..... I'm Kyle Shanahan.

Yeah, ... that's right. OC for the 'Skins. I'm the one that calls those plays that make your head turn around like Linda Blair in the Exorcist You know. " Wily Kylie ".

Third and one, you wanna leave Torain in and jam that **** up the middle? **** that. I'm bringing in Hightower. That's right, the pass. Gotta work it. I'm flippin' over my hole cards, and shovin' all in. Why?
Because I'm Wily Kylie and that' how I roll.
Second and goal from the seven, Oh! Now you wanna pass? You're a sissy. **** that. We're gonna set up the third and goal from the three, and then stick that **** in there when it really hurt's the most, baby.
You see the old man over there. Yeah, he likes to keep it on the ground. I say screw that ****. The only time I want to keep the ball on the ground is after the game, when I've got my foot propped up on it and my arms folded like the Pirate from the Captain Morgan's commercial. " Got a little Wily Kylie in ya ? " Well if you dont, ...you should.
Third and 12 from their 22. 17 point lead. 10 minutes to go. You wanna run it, kick the field goal and make it a three touchdown game? Screw that ****. That ****s for girls. We're gonna air this ***** out. I'd rather go down in a blaze of glory trying to dominate a team, and lose, than grind out a 17 - 0 win.

I'm Wily Kylie and don't you forget it.

now, that was freakin funny. :D

well done.

[keecee]

I ain't forgiving any of them.If you're s---,you are s---,doesn't matter who you are or who you play for.He's a decent back up,but not real reliable to count on as a starter.Reminds me of Billy Kilmer.When he was on,he was great.But when he was off(a lot.) he stunk.Personally,I'm happy just to have an improved overall team.

---------- Post added October-5th-2011 at 10:33 PM ----------

Amen! Don't sit on a lead.Try to score every time you get the ball. Sometimes ya gotta take a gamble,and if you're saving bus fare,you ain't gonna win. I don't like the way the defense plays off the receivers,when a team is trying to catch up.I understand don't give up the long ball,but if ya give them 10 yards at a time,they're gonna score.Nothing worse than giving one away after everybody busted ass all game long,and give it to them in the last three or four minutes.

---------- Post added October-5th-2011 at 10:38 PM ----------

If it ain't working,why keep doing it? I'm with you brother.If it's obvious how you are gonna handle third and long every time,it ain't gonna work.If running is being successful,then go with it,but when it ain't ,throw the ball. Seems pretty simple to me..But whatta we know,we just have a little common sense.We sure as hell don't belong in Washington do we?

[herrmag]

We really have no idea, mostly because we have no idea how many plays Grossman is leaving on the field. Just with the lame TV view, it seems Grossman consistently misses opportunities to pick up guaranteed yards with open guys in the flat by trying to force something tougher downfield to get larger chunks. It hasn't worked since the first half of the Cardinals game.

It certainly seems like Kyle is keeping defenses off balance. We just don't have the players (QB; wide receivers) to fully execute his scheme yet.

I don't think this sentiment gets repeated enough on this board (or maybe I just don't see it). There is almost always a guaranteed open receiver in the flat, and unless it is a WR screen called from scrimmage, Rex never even takes a look, and prefers to thread a needle over the middle or launch it. That is something that MUST be corrected. We can convert on many more 3rd downs if/when he does.

[Stadium-Armory]

Our 3rd down % is already 10 percentage points higher than last year. We are second in the league in time of possession (where last year we were second to last in the league). Sure, I'd prefer both to be perfect, but lets not forget where we were just 12 months ago (not to mention 24 months ago).

[paloosa]

Kyle Shanahan does need to share the blame on the calls that doesn't work. But calling plays against a DC is a feast or famine type of deal. When you're hot you're hot. When you're cold you are cold. It is like they say, it's a chess game. SOmetimes you call the right play and other times they call the perfect defense. But it is up to the players to execute the plays or check out to a better option. That is where it lands on the QB, which happens to be Grossman. So they both have to work that out to be more efficient. The turnovers Rex has had are not all his fault because two have come off of hands of recievers and one for a slip by the reciever. The fumble is on him.

[darrelgreenie]

Its kinds like chess except you can move first.