After Game 5... I feel I've seen this movie before. *Updated OP After game 7.*

[Destino]

**Update. OK perhaps this isn't the same movie. It's starting to feel like a bad sequel. Numbers updated below,**

While watching this team this year I’ve had the nagging feeling that I’ve see this all before. The defense is clearly not the same as last year but the offense might as well be described as “Redskinesque”. So I started looking at numbers. I’m a stat nerd and this is what I do. Things have taken a turn for the worse at this point in the season.

Redskins 2011 3-4, 116 points
Redskins 2010 4-3, 130 points

Total points per game:
2011 16.6 **updated** We have reached Jim Zorn offensive production levels
2010 18.9
2009 16.6
2008 16.6
2007 20.9
2006 19.2
2005 22.4
2004 15
2003 17.9
2002 19.2
2001 16

The team has had two years in 10 tries of more than 20 points per game. This season is no exception and if you look at those numbers you see that scoring this season so far is right in line with what the Redskins have been doing for a decade. Different coaches and players have all yielded very similar results.

Beck is the 12th different starter since 2001. Will we see the 13th in 2012 or will we get a 14th as well....
Banks
George
Matthews
Ramsey
Wuerffel
Hasselbeck
Brunell
Campbell
Collins
Mcnabb
Grossman
Beck

So if you’re sitting there thinking this Redskins team looks awfully familiar, I agree with you and the information I’ve dug up about the offense does as well. Let’s hope that these coaches can still do something THIS season to break from the struggles we’ve seen far too many times as Redskin fans.

In typical Redskins fashion the back up has found his way onto the field and... things have not improved.

“We are who we thought we were” on offense at least.... **I think we might be worse**

[Tarantula]

Just like all successful franchises, we must find a QB if we plan on winning anything.

[SpringfieldSkins]

Well, Destino you're probably right.

I'd much rather watch this team with Plan Beck than the Rex Grossman Suck Machine under center though. Either way, we'll probably suck our way to 5-11 or 6-10 but I can't root for Rex Grossman Suck Machine any more. I can hope for the best in Plan Beck.

[Destino]

Well, Destino you're probably right.

I'd much rather watch this team with Plan Beck than the Rex Grossman Suck Machine under center though. Either way, we'll probably suck our way to 5-11 or 6-10 but I can't root for Rex Grossman Suck Machine any more. I can hope for the best in Plan Beck.

I may be mistaken but I get te feeling you don't like Rex Grossman. :)

I've pointed out that he's out of shape and trending downward since before the rams game. That game confirmed my suspicion that he wa getting worse. Today was an outright implosion. If they start him against the Panthers this coaching staff will show they are too stubborn or arrogant for their own good. Showing up on a contract year with an min salary dependent in performance benchmarks to get some extra money makes me doubt where Rex's head is. I don't know if he's web worth keeping next season as a backup.

Hopefully plan Beck works... Because if any team is due some miracle at QB it's us.

[ddub52]

Our average is 19.2, but we havent even scored more than 19 since week 2.

[jazzy1]

sadly I have the same feeling good post. Until we adequtely address O line playmakers outside and most importantly qb nothing will change but coaches at Redskins Park,

[Frediemac]

Just like all successful franchises, we must find a QB if we plan on winning anything.

I think the Colts decided the minute they got the news back in the summer that Peyton was hurt they they were going to tank it and go after the #1 Pick Andrew Luck. Part of me wishes we would have also. That's what this team needs and I know it's not guranteed but we haven't had a stud QB (Thiesmann?) since Sonny J in the 1960's when I was a KID! Thats a long time. Thats what this team needs. Trade 3 #1 overall picks for the kid. Do whatever it takes to get him.

[flexxskins]

We are rebuilding Destino, it's going to just take a little time. Twenty more years, give or take a decade.:silly:

[SKINS'n'Spurs]

Disturbing to say the least....I really hope we strike gold in the draft with a QB, I mean it's a cyclical thing, right? we're due, right? After 10+ years our # has to be up....crossing my fingers, but holding my breath....Beck knows this is his chance. I'm confident in him that he will give his all. I just hope he gets a suit or something as to not look like the team bus mechanic or locker room janitor for pressers, haha....actually thought the shirt was pretty funny, but if you want to be taken seriously, sometimes you gotta look the part.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

For those of us who didn't get carried away with half-hearted exhibition games and the first few regular season ones of this year, this comes as now surprise.

The comparison's to Zorn's first year kept coming to mind for me yesterday. I posted such before the Eagles debacle. Another team that couldn't score for **** and we know how that season quickly turned when an over worked D couldn't cope. Eery similarities with this team outside of the first week. We could well of lost to a woeful Cardinal and Ram outfit down to this anemic O.

And now, with as good as a rookie QB who hasn't started an NFL game in 5 seasons (Hell, yesterday was his FIRST action in that time); with a mere 6 games and 4 starts under his belt and zero wins; not to mention all the other problems with this O from coordinator to personnel; I honestly don't see this situation turning around anytime soon. Either in production, or W's there in.

Hail.

[NoCalMike]

I think the main problem also though is, besides Gibbs 2.0, when has a coach and his staff been given real rebuilding time? It has always been 2 seasons (or less) to get it done or move on. How many franchises are successful having coaching staff changes and new offenses installed every couple of seasons?

[joeknows]

it DOES feel good to finally be able to exhale though.... as much as i hate to admit it

[bedlamVR]

I have to say this does feel like the other shoe and it is obvious this team has a lot of building to go (on offense at least) and there are going to be some loud mouth fans calling for it al to be bown up throughout the offseason and for Shanahan to be fired and Haslett to go (even if we make the playoffs) but this start is a step on the road to the destination .

One thing I have to say - if you think this offense looks like last years offense then errem ... it is last years offense . All that has changed is the back up at QB is now the starter, (though hopefully not for much longer), the backup pass catching TE is now the starting pass catching TE, the RG is now the C and we have a new RG, a WR who we traded a camp casulaty for and a new rotational running back crew .. just what were you expecting ?

[paloosa]

While watching this team this year I’ve had the nagging feeling that I’ve see this all before. The defense is clearly not the same as last year but the offense might as well be described as “Redskinesque”. So I started looking at numbers. I’m a stat nerd and this is what I do. Turns out I have seen this before.

Redskins 2011 3-2, 96 points
Redskins 2010 3-2, 89 points

Donovan McNabb through 5 games:
1315yards 96/170 (56.5%) 4td 3int 0fumbles 11sacks 81.9rating
Rex Grossman through 5 games:
1131yards 92/165 (55.8%) 6td 9int 2fumbles (2 lost) 9sacks 66.5rating

Total points per game:
2011 19.2
2010 18.9
2009 16.6
2008 16.6
2007 20.9
2006 19.2
2005 22.4
2004 15
2003 17.9
2002 19.2
2001 16

The team has had two years in 10 tries of more than 20 points per game. This season is no exception and if you look at those numbers you see that scoring this season so far is right in line with what the Redskins have been doing for a decade. Different coaches and players have all yielded very similar results.

This year however after the teams 5th game the team appears to be forced to enter into Plan B… or Plan Beck if you prefer. It will be interesting to see what takes place going forward. Will the team finally find different results or will this year’s plan B be short lived and deliver the same 16-20 scoring result the redskins seem to be trapped in? Make no mistake about it, the rest is somewhat meaningless without scoring. Like Madden has been known to say, the team with the most points at the end wins. If you can’t score you can’t win and the skins have had some serious problems scoring despite having enjoyed an above average defense for the vast majority of the last decade.

Beck will be the 12th different starter since 2001.
Banks
George
Matthews
Ramsey
Wuerffel
Hasselbeck
Brunell
Campbell
Collins
Mcnabb
Grossman
Beck

So if you’re sitting there thinking this Redskins team looks awfully familiar, I agree with you and the information I’ve dug up about the offense does as well. Let’s hope that these coaches can still do something THIS season to break from the struggles we’ve seen far too many times as Redskin fans.

“We are who we thought we were” on offense at least.

Amazing isn't. It isn't a surprise at all. We need a good QB but it is too late for Luck. We will win just enough games to be in the top 10 picking but not in line to get the QB we need. Andrew Luck. I should have gotten on board with the SUCK FOR LUCK campaign earlier. I guess that is shot thanks to the Colts. Who is the next FA washed up QB we can go after? Palmer? How about begging Kurt Warner to come out of retirement? Until they fix the QB position they will always be a bad to mediocre team no matter who the coach is.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Amazing isn't. It isn't a surprise at all. We need a good QB but it is too late for Luck. We will win just enough games to be in the top 10 picking but not in line to get the QB we need. Andrew Luck. I should have gotten on board with the SUCK FOR LUCK campaign earlier. I guess that is shot thanks to the Colts. Who is the next FA washed up QB we can go after? Palmer? How about begging Kurt Warner to come out of retirement? Until they fix the QB position they will always be a bad to mediocre team no matter who the coach is.

Honestly, with a QB about to start who's akin to a rookie in pro terms; coming into an offense with a multitude of problems that can't score for ****; I don't think we're out of a top 5 pick by any means. And the Colts and the rest are surely gona' pick some games up between now and the end of the year.

We could be in the Luck stakes yet.

Hail.

[ReMaDE]

Just like all successful franchises, we must find a QB if we plan on winning anything.

Quarterbacks don't win championships.....there's a million great examples of this if you wish me to exlain

[USS Redskins]

Different Faces - Same old Redskins.

Rebuilding my rear end. This is year two. Year two you should have the QB position established. The D is better but yesterday in the first quarter they couldnt stop anything. Year two should see steady progress... the Off is Worse.
They are giving up quite a bit of yards and it was only a matter of time that there was a break out. The secondary is definitley suspect and next week against the Panthers.. ugh.. 500 yards passing possible?

I laugh at anyone who thought Grossman was the answer. Beck is a stop gap and then we all have another 2 years of Rebuilding when and if they draft a rookie QB.

How much longer??????

[Bobbyst21]

We are not signing Luck. Not gonna happen. People say we didnt draft Mallet because he doesent fit our scheme. That he's strictly a pocket passer and we rely on the roll out. Whatever. any QB can roll out and they all do. But under that same philosophy, Luck wouldnt be a fit here either. I disagree.
Say we use our 1st round pick on a QB this year, and we should, we are still 2 years away at that point of having solid QB play if he works out. Thats year 4 into Shannys 5 year contract. I just hope that Snyder has finally learned from his previous mistakes and allows Shanny the full contract to succeed and i hope more than that, that Shanny stays longer to continue. Otherwise we'll be in the same boat we're always in . A perpetual state of learning a new scheme/rebuilding. Every QB listed minus Grossman have been subject to it,especially Campbell.
We've lacked continuity for so long, been lost in the woods and just now seeing the light for a way out. Its not just the QB, its the entire system. And theres other QB's coming out in the next two years that'll be good.

[JimmyZ123]

Unfortunately, we will not be an actual "good" team for 2 more years minimum. Draft a QB, give him a year to learn, then we have a chance the following year.

[Skinz4Life12]

this years draft and offseason must focus on 1) QB 2) O-Line 3) WR

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Kellen Moore. Boise State. Imo, he's a QB that 'fit's' the Shannhan system. He's accurate, somewhat mobile, and can make plays out of nothing.

Until then we are left with the stop gap of Rex and Beck. This franchise MUST draft a QB next year to keep everyone interested.

[Riggo-toni]

Quarterbacks don't win championships.....there's a million great examples of this if you wish me to exlain

Yeah, especially nowadays. I mean, look at most of the QBs who've won over the last decade..Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Roethlisberger...all of them are just so mediocre.

[skinsmania123]

Destino--Great post. I kept thinking our offense seemed very familiar, and your stats nailed it. And our D is like good year, then bad year, good year, then bad year. But the Offense? They just do not score in the RZ.

Also I have stated in thread after thread that Grossman is OUT of SHAPE. It impacts. The frustrating part for me is that this Offense is supposed to be run quickly. So Beck gives us a much better opportunity to run this type of offense. Lethargic Rex simply does not. And to be effective with Beck we really need to run more quick plays, in terms of slants, and screens. The ball has to come out quickly plus our O line can't handle a developing plays. Our run game? Contigent on the holes. If we can get the opposing D off balance by moving more quickly with short, crisp passing routes the run game can be implemented sporadically. Sorry but anyones run game is as good as their O line. Our blows right now. The injury bug has hit.

[wrecker]

Total points per game:
2011 19.2
2010 18.9
2009 16.6
2008 16.6
2007 20.9
2006 19.2
2005 22.4
2004 15
2003 17.9
2002 19.2
2001 16



Now if you only look at average offensive points per game things get really ugly. :(

[Tarantula]

Quarterbacks don't win championships.....there's a million great examples of this if you wish me to exlain

This should be entertaining...

[GaryGreenMonk]

Disturbing to say the least....I really hope we strike gold in the draft with a QB, I mean it's a cyclical thing, right? we're due, right? After 10+ years our # has to be up....crossing my fingers, but holding my breath....Beck knows this is his chance. I'm confident in him that he will give his all. I just hope he gets a suit or something as to not look like the team bus mechanic or locker room janitor for pressers, haha....actually thought the shirt was pretty funny, but if you want to be taken seriously, sometimes you gotta look the part.

no. actually the skins have never in their entire history drafted a good QB.

[hawgboy]

Kellen Moore. Boise State. Imo, he's a QB that 'fit's' the Shannhan system. He's accurate, somewhat mobile, and can make plays out of nothing.
.

Kellen is only 6' though and that could be a knock... If he's still around by Round 4, I say take a chance on him even if we draft a QB in the 1st.

[War Paint]

Let's just hope that Beck can elevate the offense some. We should all be pulling for him. The best thing for this franchise is for Beck becoming a solid starter. We can still draft a QB next year and sit him behind Beck.

[LightningBuggs]

Quarterbacks don't win championships.....there's a million great examples of this if you wish me to exlain

QB's were Super Bowl MVP's 24 of 45 times. Those that weren't played an integral role except for Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Jeff Hostetler.

QB's do win titles, imo. And we need one.

[War Paint]

Unfortunately, we will not be an actual "good" team for 2 more years minimum. Draft a QB, give him a year to learn, then we have a chance the following year.


I think we are pretty decent now. If we win next week against the Panthers, we will be 4-2. We aren't that far away. I do agree though that we must draft a QB next year, even if Beck turns out to be good. Next off-season, we should be able to fill any remanding holes we have. We have much fewer holes this year than we did last year.

[Diss]

no. actually the skins have never in their entire history drafted a good QB.

Sammy Baugh will haunt you from the grave.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 12:10 PM ----------

The most difficult thing to stomach here is the points. I had no idea it stretched out that long.

It's truly sickening - no matter what happens, no matter who comes in here, scoring more than 20 points in a game is usually miraculous. With those stats, it's amazing we haven't been worse record-wise.

[gortiz]

not really optimistic but I can see a few sublte differences that make me want to belive we are not watching the same movie ...

Helu is a legit homerun threat in the making, he will make our O more dynamic once/if gets more experience. Torain and THT round out what I think is a good, not great, backfield. It has been awhile since we can say that.

Armstrong will help when he gets back. He's our only legit deep ball threat.

While trent is not exaclty overwhelming, we have our cornerstone LT, as important as a good QB.

Our D just has to hold on a little longer for help. :helmet:

[btfoom]

Destino,
I said the same thing to my wife yesterday.

I know the team focused the offseason on defense (and they do look better), but I expected (or hoped) the offense would improve, too.

Grossman is exactly who we thought he is. A guy who can have a couple of decent games if given great protection, but just can't get it done consistently. I fear Beck won't be much better.

This team actually has a chance to win the Division, given how bad the other three teams have been playing. I think that they should seriously consider signing Gerrard to a one year deal and roll the dice.

[hawgboy]

This team actually has a chance to win the Division, given how bad the other three teams have been playing. I think that they should seriously consider signing Gerrard to a one year deal and roll the dice.

Better hurry... sounds like the Raiders are already on the phone with him.

[Year_of_The_Monk]

Damn ur stats make me sad. If Rex didn't turn the ball over so many times, we could be 20+ this year.

[VaSkinsNut]

Watching some replays during yesterdays games I do feel a bit better about this coaching staff. Despite our poor offensive output I do see receivers running free, weather there is a lack of talent or not, this staff is putting them into a position to succeed.

Our talent offensively does need to improve, but Shanahan is doing it the smart way.

Yes we don't have a decent QB on the roster, but if we can find one in the draft I expect things will turn around drastically.

[illone]

I think this franchise is cursed.

No matter the coach, the system, or the QB, this team's destiny is mediocrity.

[ReMaDE]

Yeah, especially nowadays. I mean, look at most of the QBs who've won over the last decade..Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Roethlisberger...all of them are just so mediocre.

Name one quaterback who you know to successfully carry their team solo to a superbowl? I am not going to sit here and say a quaterback wont get you there but, you can't sit here and tell me that a Quaterback is the only reason a team makes it there. If that's the case then we should just play football one on one.

I am not taking anything away from great quaterbacks.... and yes they are a big reason that some teams make it there, but they couldn't have done it without a supporting cast. Can you really say Brady won his superbowls without the help of people like Branch and Faulk, Watson and the O Line? Or that Big Ben did it with Hines Ward and Holmes, or Mendenhall.

No doubt that your list has 5 of the greatest quarterbacks in modern era, I will give you that. But the only reason that you know they are fantastic is because they have a team equipped with the tools to suit their strengths.

I just don't want people saying that's our only problem or reason we can't reach a Superbowl. No doubt it will help but one player can't get you there

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 11:58 AM ----------

That's the default choice. They touch the ball every single offensive play, so as long as the don't screw up and hand the ball off and get the W then yea its an easy pick. That's not to say they don't play a huge part, but Riggins won MVP over Thiesman, gaurentee niether of them would have won it if they didn't have each other. No doubt we need a good QB but we need other good players as well.

[pjfootballer]

Destino,
I said the same thing to my wife yesterday.

I know the team focused the offseason on defense (and they do look better), but I expected (or hoped) the offense would improve, too.

Grossman is exactly who we thought he is. A guy who can have a couple of decent games if given great protection, but just can't get it done consistently. I fear Beck won't be much better.

This team actually has a chance to win the Division, given how bad the other three teams have been playing. I think that they should seriously consider signing Gerrard to a one year deal and roll the dice.


Better hurry... sounds like the Raiders are already on the phone with him.

Gerrard turned them down. I think he's going to have back surgery and sit out the season.

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 01:43 PM ----------


Yeah, especially nowadays. I mean, look at most of the QBs who've won over the last decade..Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Roethlisberger...all of them are just so mediocre.

Or in the past with, oh I don't know, Starr, Staubach, Griese, Bradshaw, Aikman, Elway, Stabler, and some dumb guy named Montana.

[GoDeep81]

While watching this team this year I’ve had the nagging feeling that I’ve see this all before.

It's pretty much a carbon copy of years past.. I predict we'll score a few points in the next 2 games as teams wont know what to expect from Beck.. Then, as usual, they get some tape on us, adjust, and we'll be back to pulling our hair out.. Only saving grace this year is that we all pretty much expected it.. Just praying we have another decent draft/offseason, and hope to god we can finally start to bear actual fruit next season and beyond..

[MONTEY]

I think this franchise is cursed.

No matter the coach, the system, or the QB, this team's destiny is mediocrity.

Snakebiten. Felt this way a bit for years now. Some may think its a foolish thought but something just aint right with this franchise. No matter the coach, QB or owner I just don't get it.

[DieselPwr44]

Vinny drafting busts like Kelly and Thomas in 2007 set this offense back years.

[Skinzfever2010]

Vinny drafting busts like Kelly and Thomas in 2007 set this offense back years.

For every **** up Vinny had he picked some players that are still in important positions today. Stop it

[PerryMason]

Crazy how the two time the points per game was 20 or more (05 and 07, we went to the playoffs. Heck, it even reflects which team was better, the 05 team scored 22. And without knowing that you would say that 05 was the better team than the 07. Looks like its a good indicator of how good we are in any given year.

[DieselPwr44]

For every **** up Vinny had he picked some players that are still in important positions today. Stop it
A blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Vinny's drafting was absolutely putrid for the most part.

EDIT

He such a draft guru that NFL teams flocked to his house to put him in charge of their franchise's draft........ :rolleyes:

[Skinsfanatic_1]

I think the Colts decided the minute they got the news back in the summer that Peyton was hurt they they were going to tank it and go after the #1 Pick Andrew Luck. Part of me wishes we would have also. That's what this team needs and I know it's not guranteed but we haven't had a stud QB (Thiesmann?) since Sonny J in the 1960's when I was a KID! Thats a long time. Thats what this team needs. Trade 3 #1 overall picks for the kid. Do whatever it takes to get him.

And what if Andrew Luck sucks?

[Skinzfever2010]

A blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Vinny's drafting was absolutely putrid for the most part.

Sean Taylor
London Fletcher
Chris Coooollleeyyyy
Santana brought in
Fred Davis
Brian Orakpo
LaRon Landry
DeAngelo Hall
Carlos Rodgers

[ciresolstice]

Anemic offense, quite pedestrian. Scares no one. 18pts a game average, won't win many games. The defense is improved for sure.

[DieselPwr44]

With as starved for talent as the offense is, it makes you wonder why Austin and Hankerson don't see the field more often and someone like Paulsen isn't incorporated more into the passing game.

[Destino]

updated... sadly.

[Destino]

updated again... sadly.

16.6 points per game. Welcome to Jim Zorn offensive production territory.

this. sucks.

[USS Redskins]

Get ready to bump this for the next 9 weeks.

It looks like the spirit of Zorn possesed the team... or year 2 Spurrier.

The term Quit-Skins has never been more applicable than yesterdays game.