The Argument: Starting John Beck Would Give Us a Good Shot at Winning the Division

[Oldfan]

.

P = Premise
C = Conclusion

(P1) There are no Grade A teams in the NFL

Unless we grade on a curve, there are no teams without significant weaknesses.

(P2) There is not even a solid Grade B team in the NFC East.

The Eagles have the best individual talent, but they are 2-4 because their talent does not fit together well on offense or defense. They will do well to finish 9-7. The Giants and Cowboys don’t figure to be any better.

(C1) So, even though the Skins are just an average NFL team with obvious weaknesses, it is not out-classed by any team within the division.

(P3) Given his mobility advantage, his running and a sharp short game, John Beck is a better fit for our offense than Rex.

(C2) So, John gives Kyle the tools to run a more conventional, ball control WCO than Rex did. And, if he can do that, then the Skins can keep the opponent’s offense off the field. For example, had Beck practiced with the first team over the bye week, and started the game, it’s unlikely that the Eagles would have dominated the TOP the first half of Sunday’s game and gotten off to a 20-0 lead. Our defense played well enough overall to win that game. We would have no fear that the Eagles will overwhelm us in the rematch if Beck starts.

(C3) Beck’s mobility would also allow the Shanahans more options to gameplan for protection despite the O-line injuries.

(P4) Our 3-2 record still has us in the mix for the division which could be won with a 9-7 record.

(C4) So, we don’t need to get a whole lot better to have a good shot at winning the division. Since he’s a better fit for the offense, if the Shanahans start him, John Beck would improve us enough to allow us to be there fighting for the division at season's end.

[Skinsinparadise]

I can go for that. I think we'd have a shot winning yesterday if Beck was the starter. In one quarter he did something Rex couldn't do in three and that is score a touchdown. Heck if Beck is just a competent and not careless with the ball it should be an upgrade. We've talked about this, neither one of us is banking on Beck being a stud, he's a great unknown, but Rex's pros and cons are established. Beck seems at the very least more athletic -- mobile with a stronger arm. He has potential which at the very least should be explored. It's hard IMO to play worse than Rex.

Having said all that, a straggler or two in the media think Rex might keep his job, if that happens, i will be extremely upset.

[Oldfan]

...Having said all that, a straggler or two in the media think Rex might keep his job, if that happens, i will be extremely upset.I think the stragglers don't realize that a good argument could have been made for pulling Rex before the Eagles game. Many in the media are like fans in general. The team's record of 3-1 was all they needed to hear to reject the idea of yanking him.

[PeterMP]

I don't think he gives you a GOOD shot. He gives you more of a shot.

Realistically, if you stay with Grossman, you are staying with a guy that isn't a good NFL QB. You may as well see if Beck is any better at this point in time.

[Redskins4ever]

Beck is more athletic than Grossman. So was Brian Greise, and of course John Elway. Beck has made errors throwing the ball also. Does anyone remember that roll out from the back of the endzone against the Ravens in preseason, and Beck throwing a bomb down the field that was intercepted? Beck makes his mistakes too. But Beck will not make as many as Grossman has made.

[Oldfan]

I don't think he gives you a GOOD shot. He gives you more of a shot.Are you saying that you don't think we would have a good shot? If so, why not?

[#98QBKiller]

Realistically, if you stay with Grossman, you are staying with a guy that isn't a good NFL QB. You may as well see if Beck is any better at this point in time.

This is what it comes down to IMO.

[authentic]

I don't know what the "real" feelings are in the lockerroom towards Rex, but i think a permanent change to Beck is what's needed at this point. A performance like that (after a bye week no less) is an indicator that Rex is that Rex will not get better through out the course of the season. And will actually be THE reason why we lose games. Lets see what Beck can do, can't be any worse.

[PeterMP]

Are you saying that you don't think we would have a good shot? If so, why not?
At winning the division?

No.

Because you have the 4th best team in the division. The Giants, Cowboys, and Eagles are all better teams. I'm not sure they are a lot better, but they are all better.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I totally concur with the points about Becks attributes fitting the system. That's never been in question.

But the guys akin to a rookie. Yesterday was his first regular season action in 5 years. He's a grand total of 6 pro games with 4 starts under his belt. And his team got shut out in one of those. He's a TOTALLY unknown quantity at this point.

No question a change had to be made. And I'm real happy to see most ANYONE bar Interceptus Rexus back there. But until we actually see him for an extended period under center let's not make any wild predictions. Besides his total pro inexperience, he's stepping into an offense that has a multitude of problems from the OC's calling of games (I know, that should improve with Becks better suited skill set in theory); to a lack of top class personnel.

I honestly don't see that much of a difference in output or increase in W's.

Good luck John. You'll need it.

Hail.

[Mahons21]

With our current o-line woe's, and lack of depth in our d-line rotation, I just don't see us winning the division.

With that being said, I think we will be in contention as I believe every team in our division will be in contention.

[Monk4thaHALL]

You got to find out what Beck has to offer.

[Oldfan]

At winning the division?

No.

Because you have the 4th best team in the division. The Giants, Cowboys, and Eagles are all better teams. I'm not sure they are a lot better, but they are all better.I don't think the evidence so far this season supports your opinion, but if that's the way you see it...

[Skinsinparadise]

With our current o-line woe's, and lack of depth in our d-line rotation, I just don't see us winning the division.

With that being said, I think we will be in contention as I believe every team in our division will be in contention.

The O line is arguably the last place where we want to incur injuries, little depth. Should be interesting to see if we can mount a running game and protect the Qb. The running game struggled at times even when they were all healthy.

[pointyfootball]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

I think it purely came down to experience. As bad as Rex can be, he proved through the pre-season that that experience is a million miles ahead of Beck for a team Shanahan believes can win now.

It's an indication of just HOW bad Grossman's been when 5 games in he's switching to a 30 year old 'rookie.'

Hail.

[Oldfan]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.Like most coaches, Mike Shanahan makes win-now moves. Grossman had a better grasp of the scheme than Beck giving him an edge in their competition, but defenses found Rex easy to defense, a problem which grew worse until Grossman's edge over Beck disappeared.

[sportjunkie07]

he is probably our best shot at winning the division, but with yesterday's loss, i dont see it happening.

we lost a lot on the oline. in one week, the oline is already on par with the 09' oline. hopefully beck can use his mobility to extend plays and light a fire under our offense.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

I agree that a good helping of C4 is what's needed for this offense. ;)

Unfortunately, C4 isn't on the roster.

[Skinsinparadise]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

Keiland Willaims beat Torain for the starting RB position last preseason. Devin Thomas beat Brandon Banks in the preseason to be the KR. It doesn't mean that those players aren't as good and will always live in the shadow to the players they lost the preseason battle to. Heck we can talk about a ton of examples from other teams including Bledsoe beating Romo and initially Brady too.

Yeah guys win jobs in the preseason and lose them in the season, happens all the time in every sport. the Yankees demoted a pitcher to the minors mid season who ended up by far to be their 2nd best starter and was much better than the pitchers who were initially ahead of him after Spring Training. It's a fairly routine thing in sports so don't see why its a bigger deal in this case.

[pointyfootball]

Like most coaches, Mike Shanahan makes win-now moves. Grossman had a better grasp of the scheme than Beck giving him an edge in their competition, but defenses found Rex easy to defense, a problem which grew worse until Grossman's edge over Beck disappeared.

Understand that, but my big question mark would be why didn't they give Beck some real game-time at the end of last season?

[Oldfan]

he is probably our best shot at winning the division, but with yesterday's loss, i dont see it happening.

we lost a lot on the oline. in one week, the oline is already on par with the 09' oline. hopefully beck can use his mobility to extend plays and light a fire under our offense.I think the running game might suffer a little more than the pass protection losing Lichten--- and TW. But, neither was a stud.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 01:28 PM ----------


Understand that, but my big question mark would be why didn't they give Beck some real game-time at the end of last season?Rex wasn't under contract. Beck was. They needed to find out whether they wanted to re-sign Rex.

[Califan007]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

Grossman has gotten progressively worse with each game:

QB ratings:

Game 1 - 110.5
Game 2 - 74.9
Game 3 - 77.5
Game 4 - 48.5
Game 5 - 23.7

Over the last three games, Rex has 2 TDs and 8 turnovers. This is clearly no longer the Rex Grossman that Shanahan saw over the span of the preseason. If this Rex had shown up in the preseason, we might have kept Clemens instead.

[Skinsinparadise]

Understand that, but my big question mark would be why didn't they give Beck some real game-time at the end of last season?

some say it was because Rex was a free agent to be, they wanted to see what they had there as to whether he was worth resigning. Also Rex had more time in the offense, Beck was signed if I recall mid summer that year. If they thought Beck was bad, why sign him to a three year contract? or why not release the dude? They threw Beck in game #5 that IMO is fairly early in the season -- Shanny said yesterday Beck's been looking good in practice, maybe he isn't BSing?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I think the running game might suffer a little more than the pass protection losing Lichten--- and TW. But, neither was a stud.

What's scary is Trent is by far and away the best ofrensive lineman we have, and he has been up and down right through his young career. With him down, and a reshuffle right across the line, I fear for Beck's health.

Good job he's got legs.

Hail.

[sportjunkie07]

I think the running game might suffer a little more than the pass protection losing Lichten--- and TW. But, neither was a stud.

probably right, but i was thinking that our run game would be our strength on offense this year. a lot is going to be on beck's shoulders.

im a homer, so i dont want to think about it, but our oline could kill our offense the rest of the year. no Lsteiger, no TW. and we couldnt get anything going against a eagles dline that is decimated by injury. it could get bad, hopefully it doesnt.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Shanny said yesterday Beck's been looking good in practice, maybe he isn't BSing?

Yeah, I didn't quite get that.

By his own admission yesterday, Beck hasn't worked at all with the first team this year. He's been solely on the scout team preparing our D. I don't know how good you can look in that limited role, even in practice.

Hail.

[theTruthTeller]

I think the only factual reason to start Beck is that he's not Rex. Everything else is unknown.

[Zazzaro703]

With the injuries to the O-line i think Beck has to start or we will be seeing sack fumbles along with INTs.

[Califan007]

Good job he's got legs.


And he knows how to use them.

[/ZZTop]

[Oldfan]

I think the only factual reason to start Beck is that he's not Rex. Everything else is unknown.That's an exaggeration. We know enough about Beck to say that he's a better fit for the offense, but if your point is that we don't have much of an idea about how well he will play, you're right, of course.

[TheGreek1973]

Bottom line is we don't know. That in itself is a good reason to have Beck start the next 3 games to find out. We know what we got with Rex not with Beck and as most of us know you can't tell from preseason.

What we do know is:

He can avoid the rush better than Rex, thus with our weakened OL that's a plus now.
He can make some throws which Rex has not made thus giving the O coordinator a chance to open up the play book.
He can keep a D honest by not playing too much man to man because he can run for a first. That is big because I don't think we have receivers that get off the line well, in a bump and run situation.
And finally to anyone of us think he can throw INTs every game like Rex? I mean surely he can protect the ball a little better than that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'll meet Oldfan half way here...

If we have any shot to win the division, it comes with Beck as the QB. I don't personally think we can compete with the other 3 teams right now, but I suppose things can change. Our defense is improved and our running game has shown promise at times.

What Beck does that Grossman does not do is require the defense to defend the entire field. He threw well and with zip on almost every throw. Sure, he was short very early and could maybe use a little more touch. But his throws to Gaffney, Stallworth, and Austin were pretty good and he showed an arm that we haven't seen from Grossman yet. He also can throw to the outside and run if he has to.

To me, what that means is that a defense has to guard long, laterally, and keep an eye on him. With Grossman, they could focus on inside the hash marks and 30 or so yards down field. If Rex beats you deep or to the outside, you tip your cap and assume it won't happen again. I think we'll see more running success and the ball spread around more. I'm encouraged about the offense under Beck. I wasn't nervous with every snap like I was with Grossman.

[Oldfan]

Bottom line is we don't know. That in itself is a good reason to have Beck start the next 3 games to find out. We know what we got with Rex not with Beck and as most of us know you can't tell from preseason.

What we do know is:

He can avoid the rush better than Rex, thus with our weakened OL that's a plus now.
He can make some throws which Rex has not made thus giving the O coordinator a chance to open up the play book.
He can keep a D honest by not playing too much man to man because he can run for a first. That is big because I don't think we have receivers that get off the line well, in a bump and run situation.
And finally to anyone of us think he can throw INTs every game like Rex? I mean surely he can protect the ball a little better than that.The legs open things up for others. For example, Beck's TD against the Eagles served notice to defensive coordinators that they should keep a man in the middle of the field when he is in the shotgun spread formation.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 01:51 PM ----------


I'll meet Oldfan half way here...

If we have any shot to win the division, it comes with Beck as the QB. I don't personally think we can compete with the other 3 teams right now, but I suppose things can change. Our defense is improved and our running game has shown promise at times. ..Which team (s) in our division would you fear on a neutral field?

[SirClintonPortis]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

Larry Johnson and Joey Galloway say hi(although McNabb didn't help Galloway at all).

[smurfs86]

Good shot? No. Better than Grossman? Yes. We know what we have in Rex (and it's not good) Beck is the unknown factor right now, but even in saying that I'm not confident about our QB situation at all. If he was so good he would've already had a starting job by now. I think that, sadly, once again the QB that we need is not on this team. But I'm hoping Beck proves me wrong, please prove me wrong.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Which team (s) in our division would you fear on a neutral field?

Fear or believe we'd beat with something on the line (which will be the case with each of the next 3 matchups)? I don't "fear" any of them, but believe all 3 would and should be favored on a neutral field. Additionally, I trust those teams to win the other games they play before I trust us to. In non-division games so far, we've beaten the 1-win Cardinals by a single point at home and held on for dear life to beat the winless Rams by 7.

So, even if we won 2 of the 3 remaining division games, we seem to lose the "other" games more often than they do. For example, do you think we could go up to NE and lose by a mere 4 points to the Patriots? I don't...not for a second.

[Oldfan]

Fear or believe we'd beat with something on the line (which will be the case with each of the next 3 matchups)? I don't "fear" any of them, but believe all 3 would and should be favored on a neutral field. Additionally, I trust those teams to win the other games they play before I trust us to. In non-division games so far, we've beaten the 1-win Cardinals by a single point at home and held on for dear life to beat the winless Rams by 7.

So, even if we won 2 of the 3 remaining division games, we seem to lose the "other" games more often than they do. For example, do you think we could go up to NE and lose by a mere 4 points to the Patriots? I don't...not for a second.I think Beck will improve us enough that we should not be an underdog against any of those teams on a neutral field. And, the Patriots are not scary anymore.

So, I guess the difference between us is that I see Beck's scheme fit as more of an advantage than you do. And, I suspect most posters would agree with you.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

It's been a long day and I'm dirt tired, but what am I missing in the 'neutral field against the division' thang?

The obvious, and probably totally missing the point answer is we'll probably never play them on a neutral field outside of an exhibition game.

Hail.

[War Paint]

At winning the division?

No.

Because you have the 4th best team in the division. The Giants, Cowboys, and Eagles are all better teams. I'm not sure they are a lot better, but they are all better.

You are what your record is. The record says we are the 2nd best team in our division. You can't say the Cowboys and the Eagles are better than us. Yeah, they beat us, but that doesn't mean they are better than us as a whole. We beat the current 1st place team in our division. The 1-15 Cowboys beat the Super Bowl champion Redskins. It doesn't mean they were better than us then. We beat the Packers and the Bears last year, the two teams that were in the NFC Championship and one that won the SB. It doesn't mean we were a better team than they were. Right now we are the 2nd best team in the NFC East.

[planter]

Beck will start the next game but he won't be leading us to any Division championships.

[Oldfan]

It's been a long day and I'm dirt tired, but what am I missing in the 'neutral field against the division' thang?

The obvious, and probably totally missing the point answer is we'll probably never play them on a neutral field outside of an exhibition game.

Hail.It was simply a hypothetical way of asking opinions on how well we match up with our division rivals without having to qualify the answer with home or away statements.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 02:32 PM ----------


Beck will start the next game but he won't be leading us to any Division championships.Why not? What part of my argument failed, in your opinion?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

It was simply a hypothetical way of asking opinions on how well we match up with our division rivals without having to qualify the answer with home or away statements.


Thanks man, and DOH! on my tired ass for missing the obvious.

Good debate thread as always.

Hail.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think Beck will improve us enough that we should not be an underdog against any of those teams on a neutral field. And, the Patriots are not scary anymore.

So, I guess the difference between us is that I see Beck's scheme fit as more of an advantage than you do. And, I suspect most posters would agree with you.

I'd like you to be right. He certainly looked impressive considering the circumstances he was put into (down 14 with no running game to help him, rusty with very few reps with starters, etc.).

[LetThePointsSoar]

Oldfan - for once, I agree with 100% of everything you said in your OP. Dead on, IMO.


I think the stragglers don't realize that a good argument could have been made for pulling Rex before the Eagles game. Many in the media are like fans in general. The team's record of 3-1 was all they needed to hear to reject the idea of yanking him.

Agreed. We were @ the STL game & couldn't stop talking as we were leaving how we'd hope they would pull Rex during the bye week. His decision making has just been horrendous and it is progressively getting worse it seems. At the end of the day, I still have enough confidence in the Shanny's and trust their judgement over mine, but if the switch doesn't happen this week, at a minimum, I'll be scratching my head trying to understand it.

Hail.

[theTruthTeller]

That's an exaggeration. We know enough about Beck to say that he's a better fit for the offense, but if your point is that we don't have much of an idea about how well he will play, you're right, of course.
I think its fair to say that Beck can't be much worse than Grossman was yesterday, but I have to believe, based on Beck's history, that he probably can give it a good shot. But, he might as well get a shot at starting a few games. I just forsee a lot of back and forth between Grossman and Beck. Not good for the team to not have a leader.

[fancrazyskin]

I've read threw most of the post and threads from yesterday to today and for the life me I can't understand if we as fans can diagnose most of the problems with the starting quarterback and his back up being a better fit in this scheme than why hasn't our coaching staff. Everyone is saying how mobile John is and how he is more aware in the pocket, are not the coach's aware of this and say hey Rex isn't going to cut it we need to start Beck from the get go Maybe I missing something I sure the hell hope so because I'm at the point that I'm just frustrated.

[Oldfan]

I've read threw most of the post and threads from yesterday to today and for the life me I can't understand if we as fans can diagnose most of the problems with the starting quarterback and his back up being a better fit in this scheme than why hasn't our coaching staff. Everyone is saying how mobile John is and how he is more aware in the pocket, are not the coach's aware of this and say hey Rex isn't going to cut it we need to start Beck from the get go Maybe I missing something I sure the hell hope so because I'm at the point that I'm just frustrated.I think Rex was the Shanahans choice to start the season because he had a better grasp of the offense than Beck, but Rex's play has gotten steadily worse. My explanation for that is that Rex is an easy puzzle for defenses to solve. His best effort was against the Giants and things have gone steadily downhill since.

[HogNose]

This is like going from Shane Matthews to Danny Wuerffel. I'm not very excited about it. The 2012 draft can't get here soon enough.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan - for once, I agree with 100% of everything you said in your OP. Dead on, IMO.



Agreed. We were @ the STL game & couldn't stop talking as we were leaving how we'd hope they would pull Rex during the bye week. His decision making has just been horrendous and it is progressively getting worse it seems. At the end of the day, I still have enough confidence in the Shanny's and trust their judgement over mine, but if the switch doesn't happen this week, at a minimum, I'll be scratching my head trying to understand it.

Hail.So far, I'm hanging onto the opinion that Mike Shanahan is a good judge of QB play. If Rex starts against Carolina, I'll throw in the towel on that one.

[PeterMP]

You are what your record is. The record says we are the 2nd best team in our division. You can't say the Cowboys and the Eagles are better than us. Yeah, they beat us, but that doesn't mean they are better than us as a whole. We beat the current 1st place team in our division. The 1-15 Cowboys beat the Super Bowl champion Redskins. It doesn't mean they were better than us then. We beat the Packers and the Bears last year, the two teams that were in the NFC Championship and one that won the SB. It doesn't mean we were a better team than they were. Right now we are the 2nd best team in the NFC East.
I'm sorry, but this isn't true. I don't care how hot the Orioles (and the Royals) started, they were never the best the team in the AL East (Centeral), and the final standings show it.

We've barely beaten two REALLY REALLY bad teams, and beat up a very average team that had a lot of injury issues in the first week when we essentially had none.

This MIGHT be an average team when it is completely healthy, but it is also (appears to be) a paper thin team (except for at positions where we are mediocore, and then we have lot's of mediocore players (e.g. RB)).

This isn't a good team and being 3-2 and in 2nd place in the division doesn't change that.

Now, this might change if Beck is a lot better than Grossman (or somebody else steps and is a lot better than the guy that is currently playing).

[gortiz]

C2 is the truth ... if beck starts, our offense is much more dynamic.

does Kyle call a QB run out of a stacked 5 WR set with Gross? nope.

we started runnng more boots, and the sidelines were open for business.

also, Beck, doesn't just seek out Davis and Moss, see the Austin play.

If beck started I think the lead by the eagles would have been a TD or tied at half.

[HailGreen28]

.

P = Premise
C = Conclusion

(P1) There are no Grade A teams in the NFL.Wrong. Packers, NE (weak D, but still elite "grade a" team). Lions (first loss was to a Niner team on fire).


.Unless we grade on a curve, there are no teams without significant weaknesses..Meaningless. True every season so nothing to debate.


.(P2) There is not even a solid Grade B team in the NFC East...Debatable but fair enough statement.


.The Eagles have the best individual talent, but they are 2-4 because their talent does not fit together well on offense or defense. They will do well to finish 9-7. The Giants and Cowboys don’t figure to be any better.OK....


.(C1) So, even though the Skins are just an average NFL team with obvious weaknesses, it is not out-classed by any team within the division..Well, as far as within our divsion, OK. As far as the earlier premise, non-sequitur. Does not follow. Average teams can most certainly get blown out by a "grade a" team. There has been a vast difference between how GB, NE, and Detriot vs. Dallas, and how we played so far this season. We catch GB or NE at this point, they kill us.


(P3) Given his mobility advantage, his running and a sharp short game, John Beck is a better fit for our offense than Rex..When Rex was avoiding INTs this was not true. Now.... OK.


(C2) So, John gives Kyle the tools to run a more conventional, ball control WCO than Rex did. And, if he can do that, then the Skins can keep the opponent’s offense off the field. For example, had Beck practiced with the first team over the bye week, and started the game, it’s unlikely that the Eagles would have dominated the TOP the first half of Sunday’s game and gotten off to a 20-0 lead. Our defense played well enough overall to win that game. We would have no fear that the Eagles will overwhelm us in the rematch if Beck starts...Wrong. Kyle helps the bootleg as part of the Shanahan WCO, but that's for the across the field bomb as much as the short option pass. It doesn't help the ball control aspect anymore than the play action with Rex does. How do you reach the conclusion the eagles don't dominate TOP with Beck in? You haven't explained any reasoning that follows there. I guess there are a number of simple observations to support that conclusion, like "the bootleg will be another tool to keep the defense honest" or "Beck probably won't commit as many TOs", but you didn't say any of that.


(C3) Beck’s mobility would also allow the Shanahans more options to gameplan for protection despite the O-line injuries...True. This should probably be one of your premises instead to support your previous conclusion.


((P4) Our 3-2 record still has us in the mix for the division which could be won with a 9-7 record....OK, so if this a premise........


(((C4) So, we don’t need to get a whole lot better to have a good shot at winning the division. Since he’s a better fit for the offense, if the Shanahans start him, John Beck would improve us enough to allow us to be there fighting for the division at season's end.Hmmm... not a bad conclusion. If Beck is a little better than Rex, we could win the division. This follows, Congrats. This is possible, Though sneaking by one injury ridden division opponent and beaten by the other two opponents.... well I'll hope the facts behind the last logical argument turn out to be true.

Hail!

[gortiz]

My explanation for that is that Rex is an easy puzzle for defenses to solve. His best effort was against the Giants and things have gone steadily downhill since.

yep, you said this in another post OF ... rex is easy to game plan for due to his limitations, e.g. arm strength to the sidelines, mobility, pocket presence. he's perfect off the bench.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You are what your record is. The record says we are the 2nd best team in our division. You can't say the Cowboys and the Eagles are better than us. Yeah, they beat us, but that doesn't mean they are better than us as a whole. We beat the current 1st place team in our division. The 1-15 Cowboys beat the Super Bowl champion Redskins. It doesn't mean they were better than us then. We beat the Packers and the Bears last year, the two teams that were in the NFC Championship and one that won the SB. It doesn't mean we were a better team than they were. Right now we are the 2nd best team in the NFC East.

I don't agree with that, but I see your point.

To me, if a team beats you head-to-head, it is a strong indicator that they are better than you. It isn't definitive, but what would be a better measure?

Also, just because I don't like when this fake case is made, the 1-15 1989 Cowboys beat the 10-6 1989 Redskins. We didn't make the playoffs that year.

[War Paint]

I'm sorry, but this isn't true. I don't care how hot the Orioles (and the Royals) started, they were never the best the team in the AL East (Centeral), and the final standings show it.

We've barely beaten two REALLY REALLY bad teams, and beat up a very average team that had a lot of injury issues in the first week when we essentially had none.

This MIGHT be an average team when it is completely healthy, but it is also a paper thin team (except for at positions where we are mediocore, and then we have lot's of mediocore players (e.g. RB)).

This isn't a good team and being 3-2 and in 2nd place in the division doesn't change that.

Now, this might change if Beck is a lot better than Grossman (or somebody else steps and is a lot better than the guy that is currently playing).

As of today, it is true. You said we are the worst team in the division. We aren't. We MAY end up being the worst and in the basement, but currently we are the second best team in the division. Two days ago we were the best team in the division.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 03:15 PM ----------


I don't agree with that, but I see your point.

To me, if a team beats you head-to-head, it is a strong indicator that they are better than you. It isn't definitive, but what would be a better measure?

Also, just because I don't like when this fake case is made, the 1-15 1989 Cowboys beat the 10-6 1989 Redskins. We didn't make the playoffs that year.

I must've mixed up that year with the 1-15 Cowboys. My mistake. But to get to your point about winning head to head, then we must've been a better team than the Packers last year because we beat them.

[fancrazyskin]

I think Rex was the Shanahans choice to start the season because he had a better grasp of the offense than Beck, but Rex's play has gotten steadily worse. My explanation for that is that Rex is an easy puzzle for defenses to solve. His best effort was against the Giants and things have gone steadily downhill since.

I'm mean that's what I'm taking about Oldfan, if you and I notice his decline than why what so long?

[PeterMP]

As of today, it is true. You said we are the worst team in the division. We aren't. We MAY end up being the worst and in the basement, but currently we are the second best team in the division. Two days ago we were the best team in the division.
Declaring one team "better" or "worse" than others in the course of an on going season based only on record doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense to not look at the opponents and the actual teams. The Orioles never were the "best" team in the AL east. They were never a good team. The Redskins aren't a good team.

If you insist on determining which teams are best based only on their record, despite the long history of some teams performing well during the short stretch of the season that happens to conincide with the beginning of the season while finishing having a much worse final record, I can only say that we will have to agree to disagree.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'm mean that's what I'm taking about Oldfan, if you and I notice his decline than why what so long?

4.5 games is long? that's a short leash IMO for a starter especially one with a winning record.

[Oldfan]

I'm mean that's what I'm taking about Oldfan, if you and I notice his decline than why what so long?I would have hooked Rex after the Rams game, but most here argued that the team was 3-1. That argument wouldn't have worked for me, but maybe it worked for the Shanahans.

[War Paint]

Declaring one team "better" or "worse" than others in the course of an on going season based only on record doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense to not look at the opponents and the actual teams. The Orioles never were the "best" team in the AL east.

If you insist on determining which teams are best based only on their record, despite the long history of some teams performing well during the short stretch of the season that happens to conincide with the beginning of the season while finishing having a much worse final record, I can only say that we will have to agree to disagree.

You are the one declaring that we are the worst team in the division. That's what doesn't make sense. I'm basing it off record because guess what? That's how playoff placement is decided. At noon yesterday we were in first place. You may be right down the road. There is still a lot of season left to be played. I don't see any huge gaps of quality between the teams in the East. All have strengths and weaknesses. It's not like we are in a division with the Colts in their prime, where it was pretty much guaranteed who was going to win the division.

[authentic]

if you and I notice his decline than why what so long?

Its also possible that they had in mind what they planned on doing after the Rams game and pehaps decided to give Rex one more game.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

As of today, it is true. You said we are the worst team in the division. We aren't. We MAY end up being the worst and in the basement, but currently we are the second best team in the division. Two days ago we were the best team in the division.

To me it's semantics but I would say that being in first place doesn't make you the best team at that point in time. It only means you'd win the division if the season ended on that day, but unless you believe that teams are static for the entire year, that doesn't address the current state of the team. For example, in 2005, I'm sure we were better than the Giants in the last couple weeks of the season. By your definition, they were still better than us despite losing to us head-to-head and being eliminated in their first playoff game (while we won one playoff game and played competitively vs. the eventual NFC champions). Or last year, despite the Packers beating the Bears head-to-head and winning the Super Bowl, the fact that they finished second in the Central must mean that the Bears were the best team?


I must've mixed up that year with the 1-15 Cowboys. My mistake. But to get to your point about winning head to head, then we must've been a better team than the Packers last year because we beat them.

No worries, I just feel the need to have to correct that when I see it. You could use the example of the 1995 Redskins sweeping the Super Bowl champion Cowboys!

[ouvan59]

I think the only factual reason to start Beck is that he's not Rex. Everything else is unknown.

This^

I was hoping Beck was going to win the competition in preseason but anybody who says he will do better or do worse than Rex is just blowing smoke. We just haven't seen enough to know. It's time though.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I would have hooked Rex after the Rams game, but most here argued that the team was 3-1. That argument wouldn't have worked for me, but maybe it worked for the Shanahans.

I actually was feeling this way too. In hindsight, those two weeks of preparation for Beck would have come in quite handy and who knows how this game would have gone?

[War Paint]

To me it's semantics but I would say that being in first place doesn't make you the best team at that point in time. It only means you'd win the division if the season ended on that day, but unless you believe that teams are static for the entire year, that doesn't address the current state of the team. For example, in 2005, I'm sure we were better than the Giants in the last couple weeks of the season. By your definition, they were still better than us despite losing to us head-to-head and being eliminated in their first playoff game (while we won one playoff game and played competitively vs. the eventual NFC champions). Or last year, despite the Packers beating the Bears head-to-head and winning the Super Bowl, the fact that they finished second in the Central must mean that the Bears were the best team?





No worries, I just feel the need to have to correct that when I see it. You could use the example of the 1995 Redskins sweeping the Super Bowl champion Cowboys!



I can see the argument against preparing a trip to watch the Redskins in the playoffs when we were in first place, but I think it's just as bad to say we are the worst team in the division. There is no team in our division that is better than the other in regards to being elite. All four teams are pretty much in the same ballpark.

[THEREALTOR1]

I'm mean that's what I'm taking about Oldfan, if you and I notice his decline than why what so long?

Because you have to work with the pieces that you have. If you notice a decline in the performance of the team, than as a coach its your responsibility to adjust your gameplanning to determine if those pieces can be more productive. You continue to make the attempt to overcome the obstacle by being more flexible and willing to adjust until it becomes evident that you've reached a point where gameplanning adjustments won't correct the problem of the pieces,(as in throwing 4 picks in a game). Thats when you remove the piece from the equation, insert new piece, and begin at step 1 again. Now the question becomes, what is John Becks' step 1? How much of the system does he actually know? What will his lack of knowledge of the system prevent the team from doing and how will that affect the perfomance of the team? What potential gameplanning can be done to attempt to accelerate the learning curve and overcome those limitations to be successful?

Thats my :2cents: anyway.

[PeterMP]

You are the one declaring that we are the worst team in the division. That's what doesn't make sense. I'm basing it off record because guess what? That's how playoff placement is decided. At noon yesterday we were in first place. You may be right down the road. There is still a lot of season left to be played. I don't see any huge gaps of quality between the teams in the East. All have strengths and weaknesses. It's not like we are in a division with the Colts in their prime, where it was pretty much guaranteed who was going to win the division.
But your basing it on record after 5 games. That's not how playoffs are decided- just like the Orioles didn't make the playoffs because baseball doesn't base its playoffs after 40 games (or whatever it was).

And yesterday at noon, we weren't the best team in the division.

I didn't say we were a lot worse than any other team in the division. I think it is a pretty close division. I've already said the Giants are a very average team. The Eagles and Cowboys have some real strengths, but also some real weaknesses.

I'm not saying we CAN'T win the division, but that doesn't mean the odds are good. If all of the teams have even talent, we aren't better than a 25% chance to win. Though having somebody step in and play better than the guy that has been playing that position would certainly help.

[Oldfan]

Declaring one team "better" or "worse" than others in the course of an on going season based only on record doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make sense to not look at the opponents and the actual teams. The Orioles never were the "best" team in the AL east.

If you insist on determining which teams are best based only on their record, despite the long history of some teams performing well during the short stretch of the season that happens to conincide with the beginning of the season while finishing having a much worse final record, I can only say that we will have to agree to disagree.I agree with you when you say that the record should not be used to determine the quality of a team, but how did you determine that the Skins beat two REALLY, REALLY bad teams if not by their records?

[fancrazyskin]

4.5 games is long? that's a short leash IMO for a starter especially one with a winning record.

That's not my argument I'm just saying that we as fans have notice a decline in his play threw 4.5 games. I would have though threw the bye week the coaches could have gave Beck some more reps with the starters.

[PeterMP]

I agree with you when you say that the record should not be used to determine the quality of a team, but how did you determine that the Skins beat two REALLY, REALLY bad teams if not by their records?
Partly on their record, but I've also seen them play beyond the Redskins.

[Skinsinparadise]

That's not my argument I'm just saying that we as fans have notice a decline in his play threw 4.5 games. I would have though threw the bye week the coaches could have gave Beck some more reps with the starters.

I wouldn't have minded to see him benched earlier but I think it would be weird doing it after a win when they are 3-1. If you recall in similar fashion they benched McNabb when they were losing in a game.

[Oldfan]

...I'm not saying we CAN'T win the division, but that doesn't mean the odds are good. If all of the teams have even talent, we aren't better than a 25% chance to win. Though having somebody step in and play better than the guy that has been playing that position would certainly help.It sounds like we are working on different definitions of the word "good" in this context. I meant that our chances were as good as any team in the division. I didn't mean that we would be the overwhelming favorite.

[Tarantula]

One thing Grossman seems to lack is intelligence. Instead of throwing the ball away, he decided to throw a pass directly to a defender. The only INT I cannot completely blame Grossman for, is the deep pass to Davis. Coleman went up after that INT, Davis simply reached up and made no real attempt to catch the ball. Take a look at some of Jimmy Graham's catches, he goes after the ball, and as far as I can tell, Davis seems more athletic.

If your career bests are 23 TDs to 20 INTs, and you've been in the league as long as Grossman has, chances are you're nothing more than a back up. Beck has never been given a true chance to play, this is his time.

[PeterMP]

I sounds like we are working on different definitions of the word "good" in this context. I meant that our chances were as good as any team in the division. I didn't mean that we would be the overwhelming favorite.
Okay, so when I see good used in that context, right off the bat, I think better than a random average (which in this case would be a 25%).

I'd put us below 25% (despite our 3-2 record), unless Beck is better than I expect (and I suspect better than Shannahan expects or they would have started it from the start (or somebody else is steps in or up and changes the dynamic of the team)).

[fancrazyskin]

There is a lot of football left this isn't week 12 when starting a new quarterback won't make much of a difference. Do we have a shoot of win the division? Who knows but the way that the rest of the division foes are playing why not.

[No_Pressure]

Were we 3-1 because of Rex, or in spite of Rex? If you look at the games we played objectively we have the Giants game where our defense was lights out in the 2nd half, scored the go-ahead touchdown and repeatedly gave our offense the ball back in decent field position. Rex did his part so we didn't win in spite of him, however we did not win solely because of his play.

In the Cardinals game we almost lost because of him and his turnovers. He made up for it with his late touchdown and putting together a decent drive to get us in field goal position for the go ahead score, but our defense was the reason we managed to get into that position in the first place, not to mention they forced a turnover on the Cardinal's last drive which won the game for us once and for all. I would give the edge in that game to the defense vs. Rex and I really think we won that game in spite of him. His production in that game was the type of production you could expect from many quarterbacks in the league. We did not win because of him.

In the Dallas game we almost won in spite of him, our defense played great but I wouldn't say that we lost because of Rex. He had his mistakes but our running game was shut down entirely. I don't think you can blame either side but he had a chance to win the game for us late and he turned the ball over.

In the Rams game we almost lost because of Rex's carelessness with the ball on his 2nd INT. You can't put the first one on him, but he made a dumb decision which resulted in turning the ball over in our own territory late in a game when we had a comfortable lead. Luckily we had a running game that week and our defense continued to play great under pressure. We won the Rams game in spite of Rex Grossman.

In the game yesterday I think its pretty clear that we lost because of Rex's carelessness with the ball. I like that he takes shots, I really do, but he hasn't looked as good this year as I know he has been at points in his career throwing the ball. I think that everybody around here downplayed the shape he was in- he clearly came to camp fat and even now isn't in good football shape. I think it has affected his ability to throw the ball with strength. Look at that interception on the deep ball to Gaffney. I felt that our WR's were a big part of the problem in the Rams game, but our WR's were getting open yesterday. If Grossman has the arm strength he had coming out of college on his deep ball, that is a huge touchdown play to Gaffney, and considering how we held the Eagles to 0 points in the 2nd half I think we could have easily tied the game late in the 4th. Rex has been floating passes all season. He doesn't have a fast bullet, which isn't a huge deal if you have great timing and accuracy like Chad Pennington had while healthy years ago, but Grossman never had amazing accuracy and sure as hell has questionable decision making skills.

Every game he has played this season has been a steady and noticeable decline from the one before it. 300 yards and 2 touchdowns turns into 250 yards 2 TD's, 2 INT's, which turns into 250 yards 0 TD's 1 INT, which turns into 150 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT's, which turns into 150 yards 0 TD's, 4 INT's.

It is obvious something is wrong with him and he is not capable of leading this team to victory. As evidenced by some of our games this season however, we have the kind of defense where even if we don't score 30 points, as long as we control the ball, don't turn it over and make big mistakes, run well and control the clock we can win games.

I don't see Beck as a world beater quarterback, I see him more as the alternative to Jay Schroeder 2.0. I think he will make fewer mistakes than Rex, and put up as many or more points as Rex which, considering how we have lost 2 games by a combined total of 9 points this season would seem to be a massive difference.

I wouldn't fall in love with what we saw yesterday. Backup quarterbacks often look great coming in vs. a defense that prepared and executed for 3 quarters a specific game plan against a player with completely different attributes. Once teams have film of Beck we'll see what he's really made of. I doubt he will turn the ball over 4 times in one game during the entire course of this season however assuming he does get the start next week and remains the starter.

Lastly, I saw a lot of frustrated and downright angry Redskins fans yesterday. It is our fault if we don't temper our expectations properly. We jumped out to 3-1 and we expected that we were suddenly a playoff caliber team. I had hopes that we had turned a corner and would bury the Eagles (whom I still don't think are as talented as everybody believes they are) but we didn't turn a corner, we did the same thing we always do in a major game against a team that really needs the win. We're more talented than we were last year, and we're more comfortable in our defensive system. We are however in year 2 of what is likely a 3-4 year rebuilding plan. I expected us to be 8-8 going into pre-season and I still expect it today. We're going to have good games which are flashes of what we will likely be next season assuming we continue to make smart acquisitions and draft well. We're going to have bad games where the deficiencies of the team are painfully highlighted.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Grossman has gotten progressively worse with each game:

QB ratings:

Game 1 - 110.5
Game 2 - 74.9
Game 3 - 77.5
Game 4 - 48.5
Game 5 - 23.7

Over the last three games, Rex has 2 TDs and 8 turnovers. This is clearly no longer the Rex Grossman that Shanahan saw over the span of the preseason. If this Rex had shown up in the preseason, we might have kept Clemens instead.

I agree wholeheatedly... I don't know what the hell is wrong with Grossman.

[ConcordNCSkinsFan]

I posted during the preaseason on one of the multiple Rex or Beck threads that Beck should be the starter. Grossman is just a less talented version of Jeff George. I don't think he has any leadership qualities and he absolutely regresses to his worse when in tough games. He's just a good practice player who the Shanahans have been duped into thinking was a capable starter in the NFL. Grossman gives me the same feel that Jeff George and Jay Schroeder did as Skins QB's in that he's more about his ego than the team. I'm not gonna sit up here and pretend that Beck is the answer but I believe he will be more about managing the game to help the team win than trying to make spectacular throws to prove his critics wrong.

[Oldfan]

Okay, so when I see good used in that context, right off the bat, I think better than a random average (which in this case would be a 25%).

I'd put us below 25%, unless Beck is better than I expect (and I suspect better than Shannahan expects or they would have started it from the start (or somebody else is steps in or up and changes the dynamic of the team)).I'm not going to debate whether "good" in this context should be 25% or 35%, however I think most fans overrate the opposition because they are more keenly aware of their own team's deficiencies.

The Skins beat the Giants handily. The Giants got Justin Tuck back after that game. Haslett's bonehead call handed Dallas a win in their stadium. The Eagles hung on to win by seven on a day when our QB threw four INTs. If we can even marginally improve the QB position, we can handle those teams

[Smurf85]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. There is no why we win the division with either of these QBs. A week ago I thought a little different and that was because of the defense. Well now after this week I can see our defense can't save this team.

[Passizle]

Yeah. I heard Ross Tucker this morning talking about Rex in that light. I was thinking that Ross has not viewed much game film on Rex. IMO, We have been winning by overcoming Rex's play, not because of it.
What I find puzzling is that Rex clearly looked better during the pre-season. When the real games started, he just looked lost.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

What I find puzzling is that Rex clearly looked better during the pre-season. When the real games started, he just looked lost.

I don't agree with that. I thought he looked very sharp in the Giants game. I also thought he played well for the final 3 quarters of the Cardinals game. So, he played 7 of 8 very strong quarters of football to start the year. My theory is that teams realized he wasn't going to hurt you deep or to the sideline and started defending the middle of the field. It's no coincidence (to me) that each of the next two games contained a MLB dropping right into Rex's sweet spot for easy INTs. Then there was yesterday's meltdown. I'm guessing that Rex hasn't changed, but that defenses just know the possible places that he can complete passes and are only worrying about defending those places.

[PeterMP]

I'm not going to debate whether "good" in this context should be 25% or 35%, however I think most fans overrate the opposition because they are more keenly aware of their own team's deficiencies.

The Skins beat the Giants handily. The Giants got Justin Tuck back after that game. Haslett's bonehead call handed Dallas a win in their stadium. The Eagles hung on to win by seven on a day when our QB threw four INTs. If we can even marginally improve the QB position, we can handle those teams
I live outside of Philly, don't listen to any DC sports radio, but get Philly stations and NYC stations so that's what I listen to the most.

I know plenty about the deficiencies in the Giants and the Eagles.

Despite those deficiencies, completely healthy they are better than us, and we are going forward w/o 2 starting OL, while those teams are getting healthier (at least NY and Philly).

(They'll get Cole (Their best front 7 player) back probably after their bye, and they'll likely get their stating LT (Jason Peters) and another OL (King Dunlap) back too.)

The Giants have already gotten healthier and/or found pretty good replacement players.

[Oldfan]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. ...What's hard for me to understand is why the Redskins didn't hire you to evaluate QBs. It would have saved us all a lot of trouble.

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. There is no why we win the division with either of these QBs. A week ago I thought a little different and that was because of the defense. Well now after this week I can see our defense can't save this team.

You are being absolute about a subject that you or for that matter we don't know enough about to be absolute and that is, John Beck. How do any of us know enough to make definitive conclusions about what kind of player Beck is one way or another, he hasn't even started a regular game yet for the Skins.

[Oldfan]

I live outside of Philly, don't listen to any DC sports radio, but get Philly stations and NYC stations so that's what I listen to the most.

I know plenty about the deficiencies in the Giants and the Eagles.

Despite those deficiencies, completely healthy they are better than us, and we are going forward w/o 2 starting OL, while those teams are getting healthier (at least NY and Philly).

(They'll get Cole (Their best front 7 player) back probably after their bye, and they'll likely get their stating LT (Jason Peters) and another OL (King Dunlap) back too.)

The Giants have already gotten healthier and/or found pretty good replacement players. The Eagles haven't floundered because Peters and Cole missed time (now granted, King Dunlap was a huge setback;)). They have floundered because they aren't a team. They have misfit talent on offense or defense.

The Giants are getting healthier, but they don't have that much talent to begin with. Our depth is better than theirs.

We can improve at the most important QB position; they can't.

[Enter Apotheosis]

I find myself frightened by the fact that I completely agree with Oldfan on this (or any) subject. Don't overrate our divisional opponents. If one of them gets genuinely hot down the stretch we'll have serious cause for concern but, with the way all of the NFC East teams have been playing so far, this division is wide open and even marginal improvement at the QB position could help us tremendously.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I'm encouraged by what I saw from Beck yesterday as much as I was dismayed by what I saw from Grossman. I think if we had put Beck in earlier we might have pulled that game out. I mean, he was off a little bit on his passes and he didn't hold on to the ball very well when he was running around back there, but on the whole he looked pretty good. Stallworth could have helped him out with that one catch. He absolutely should have caught that. It would have eased my mind somewhat in that I know that Beck has problems connecting with longer passes. TA made a really superb catch near the goal line, though.

I'm not sure whats up with Rex. As we all know he's gotten a little worse each week, until it all exploded in huge fireball of crap yesterday. Just a horrible display. His brain and reflexes are not on the same page. His brain is giving Rex's arm too much credit.

I'm 100% behind Beck starting next week. The team needs something. Beck is the unknown factor right now that could provide that something. I'm guessing the Coaches will also feel like Beck should be given a shot. Hopefully, anyway. I supported Rex coming out of preseason, but now I would be really disappointed if he started next week.

[Oldfan]

I find myself frightened by the fact that I completely agree with Oldfan on this (or any) subject.Damn, EA agrees. I wonder where I went wrong.

[War Paint]

I don't know why its so hard for you guys to understand. The Skins have two QBs that wouldn't make it on any other team in this league. There is no why we win the division with either of these QBs. A week ago I thought a little different and that was because of the defense. Well now after this week I can see our defense can't save this team.

I'm tired of speculating. I want to see Beck with my own two eyes over the span of several games before I say he is or isn't good enough. We've seen it with Rex. I want to see what Beck has.

[Chump Bailey]

I'm tired of speculating. I want to see Beck with my own two eyes over the span of several games before I say he is or isn't good enough. We've seen it with Rex. I want to see what Beck has.

Me too

I really was not all that impressed with Beck just by my own personal eyeball test after seeing him play in the preseason, but so be it. I hope he lights it up out there and I have no desire to see Rex return. This is Beck's chance to shine and I hope he does. I'm really disappointed with Brown's play also. I'd like to see Willie Smith in there ASAP. I think they should leave Monty at C and move Cook to LG or promote Hurt too.

We'll get this thing righted soon I think / hope

[tiger187126]

i think it's funny that when beck is in the playbook seems to open up. this is the way the preseason felt too.

for all the playcaller bashing, we don't know how much kyle was actually protecting rex.

the ability to legitimately threaten a defense with his legs and arm strength (compared to grossman) is a big advantage before we even line up.

[theTruthTeller]

One good thing about Beck is that there isn't much tape of him. Last week and 5 games in 2007 when he amassed nearly 600 yards. Next week: advantage Beck!

[akorn22]

That's cute. I see what ya did there...used logic 101 to make a nice little argument for john beck. However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises. You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

[tiger187126]

That's cute. I see what ya did there...used logic 101 to make a nice little argument for john beck. However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises. You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

i would argue with you that beck threw better deep balls in the preseason and has the obviously stronger arm, but you're basing your "facts" off of something you've made up.

his "duck" pass in the game yesterday was because he hit his elbow on the guards helmet.

[WilberMarshall]

Grossman has gotten progressively worse with each game:

QB ratings:

Game 1 - 110.5
Game 2 - 74.9
Game 3 - 77.5
Game 4 - 48.5
Game 5 - 23.7

Over the last three games, Rex has 2 TDs and 8 turnovers. This is clearly no longer the Rex Grossman that Shanahan saw over the span of the preseason. If this Rex had shown up in the preseason, we might have kept Clemens instead.

Stats, Stats, Stats, Stats...

Are just statistical lies...

Grossman is a great QB.


Signed,

Kurt Coleman

[Oldfan]

That's cute. I see what ya did there...used logic 101 to make a nice little argument for john beck. However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises. You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

In an argument, premises are always presented as facts. You could make a counter-argument by presenting logic or evidence showing the premise to be false.

The following whine is just an unsupported claim:


However no one cares, because that whole little spiel is invalid because you made incorrect assumptions and assessments and presented them as "facts" in your premises.

And if my reasoning is flawed, it's your job to explain how. The following is just another unsupported claim:


You are using inductive reasoning which isn't always accurate.

You probably think you made an argument with the following statement, but you didn't. It's just an unsupported opinion:


Beck is terrible. His deep ball looks like a duck with a shotgun hole in its wing. If grossman isn't competent enough, then we'll all just have to wait until next season.

Here's another argument for you to consider:

(P1) In post #95, akorn22, criticized my argument implying that he was familiar with the basics of an argument which he referred to as Logic 101;

(P2) In the same post, akorn22 demonstrated no familiarity with the basics of an argument

(C1) Therefore, it's highly unlikely that akorn22's education included Logic 101; but if it did, he didn't comprehend the instruction.

[Derick461]

Feel like lots of others do. Gotta see what u got in Beck. Stronger arm, more mobility, and first thing I noticed in the game with the eagles is that he stepped up in the pocket to make some throws. Grossman back peddles and back peddles. An would also like to see some of our young receivers get more chances to play. Give Hankerson some plays. If he can hold onto the ball, feel like he can make an impact. Depth at O line is certainly a concern. D seems solid still though and should keep us in games. Receivers need to hold onto the ball too. How many dropped passes after Beck came in. He short armed some, but a few others were just pure drops.

[theTruthTeller]

I was hoping Beck was going to win the competition in preseason but anybody who says he will do better or do worse than Rex is just blowing smoke. We just haven't seen enough to know. It's time though.
Beck is like a vintage wine. It tasted like grape juice in 2007, but now is the time to pop the cork and swirl it around a bit. Or we can just look at the bottle and talk about how good it might taste, while we choke down some Old Mr. Mac.

[Oldfan]

Feel like lots of others do. Gotta see what u got in Beck. Stronger arm, more mobility, and first thing I noticed in the game with the eagles is that he stepped up in the pocket to make some throws. Grossman back peddles and back peddles. An would also like to see some of our young receivers get more chances to play. Give Hankerson some plays. If he can hold onto the ball, feel like he can make an impact. Depth at O line is certainly a concern. D seems solid still though and should keep us in games. Receivers need to hold onto the ball too. How many dropped passes after Beck came in. He short armed some, but a few others were just pure drops.I noticed the drops also.

I thought Ryan Torain dropped one and might have run the wrong pattern on another before Helu replaced him. I wondered about the impact on his starting job.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 07:44 PM ----------


Beck is like a vintage wine. It tasted like grape juice in 2007, but now is the time to pop the cork and swirl it around a bit. Or we can just look at the bottle and talk about how good it might taste, while we choke down some Old Mr. Mac.:ols:

[schmitty_199]

2 cents from a Cowboys fan: ( I understand if you stop reading now haha)

Grossman gives Washington the better chance to win the division. What you saw this weekend is what makes him Rex, and why he didn't stick as the Bears starter. He'll be average most of the time, occasionally great(See last years Dallas game) and then sometimes he'll be flat out horrible.

Basically a less talented version of Romo.

While this isn't ideal, let's be honest, at this point Beck is all hype and potential. He's been in the league awhile, hardly played, and when he has played he hasn't exactly impressed. Beck is a complete unknown. Unless Shanny actually believes Beck could be the franchise QB, I don't see the point in switching now.

[Gurgeh]

I don't agree with that. I thought he looked very sharp in the Giants game. I also thought he played well for the final 3 quarters of the Cardinals game. So, he played 7 of 8 very strong quarters of football to start the year. My theory is that teams realized he wasn't going to hurt you deep or to the sideline and started defending the middle of the field. It's no coincidence (to me) that each of the next two games contained a MLB dropping right into Rex's sweet spot for easy INTs. Then there was yesterday's meltdown. I'm guessing that Rex hasn't changed, but that defenses just know the possible places that he can complete passes and are only worrying about defending those places.

Rex not throwing well to the sidelines would be common knowledge, but losing Armstrong was a factor in teams not respecting the deep threat. Whoever starts next will hopefully get Armstrong back, although the Panthers have a pretty good secondary... The only real chance we have of winning the division is if all the other teams continue to shoot themselves in the foot for the rest of the season, and even then I don't see us scoring enough points to win 9 games unless Cook and/or Hurt fit right in and Trent is only out for a week.

[butzskins]

Ok so Shanny is supposed to just let REX continue to throw picks? He has what 10 picks in 5 games?Yes sure leave him in. I mean the pats didnt bench Brady when he threw 4 pics so why should we bench REX. Right? LOL

[skeezer]

ya know? at this point in time,knowing that neither one of these guys are *elite qb's and are both on the high wire why not use both of them? i think this might very well what we are going to see anyway...why beat around the bush about it?

[theTruthTeller]

While this isn't ideal, let's be honest, at this point Beck is all hype and potential. He's been in the league awhile, hardly played, and when he has played he hasn't exactly impressed. Beck is a complete unknown. Unless Shanny actually believes Beck could be the franchise QB, I don't see the point in switching now.
Please don't try to impress anyone here with rational thought. Welcome to the nation's capitol - Beck will be the best QB of all time(!)...unless he sucks against Carolina.

[PeterMP]

The Eagles haven't floundered because Peters and Cole missed time (now granted, King Dunlap was a huge setback;)). They have floundered because they aren't a team. They have misfit talent on offense or defense.

The Giants are getting healthier, but they don't have that much talent to begin with. Our depth is better than theirs.

We can improve at the most important QB position; they can't.
The Eagles have "struggled" for a couple of reasons, including their coaching staff (their Defensive cordinator is their past OL coach, and he hasn't coached defense in quite a while), their early scheduele is tougher than it appeared (i.e the Bill and 49ers), and they haven't figured out how to mesh everybody together to best utilize their talent (which might have to do with the fact they have an old OL coach as their DC).

But if you don't think they'd be doing better with Peters and Cole (and even Dunlap) playing, then you don't much about football.

As for the Giants, I don't know how you can say our depth is better than theirs, when they have guys go down, and they can come up with a player like Victor Cruz, and they have more talent than us.

And yes, we can improve QB. The question is it really going to be much of an improvement, especially in the context with the recent injuries (i.e. is Beck w/o the injured players really better than Grossman w/?).

[whatmeworry]

I think the stragglers don't realize that a good argument could have been made for pulling Rex before the Eagles game. Many in the media are like fans in general. The team's record of 3-1 was all they needed to hear to reject the idea of yanking him.

Agree completely with this. Rex was miserable against the Rams and showed all the signs of reverting back to his old ways. If anything the steady progression of incompetence should have raised the alarm. Where is ASF when you need him?

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 08:52 PM ----------


2 cents from a Cowboys fan: ( I understand if you stop reading now haha)

Grossman gives Washington the better chance to win the division. Basically a less talented version of Romo..

That says it all. Beck it is.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

ya know? at this point in time,knowing that neither one of these guys are *elite qb's and are both on the high wire why not use both of them? i think this might very well what we are going to see anyway...why beat around the bush about it?

What do you mean by that? Alternating possessions?

[LetThePointsSoar]

So far, I'm hanging onto the opinion that Mike Shanahan is a good judge of QB play. If Rex starts against Carolina, I'll throw in the towel on that one.

I won't throw in the towel if so...but let's just say the towel will @ least be on standby. :)

[Monk4thaHALL]

Originally Posted by Oldfan:

So far, I'm hanging onto the opinion that Mike Shanahan is a good judge of QB play. If Rex starts against Carolina, I'll throw in the towel on that one.

I won't throw in the towel if so..

Throw the damn towel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHSTwqCsyVY

[Oldfan]

The Eagles have "struggled" for a couple of reasons, including their coaching staff (their Defensive cordinator is their past OL coach, and he hasn't coached defense in quite a while), their early scheduele is tougher than it appeared (i.e the Bill and 49ers), and they haven't figured out how to mesh everybody together to best utilize their talent (which might have to do with the fact they have an old OL coach as their DC).And you figure they have all this sorted out now, so you expect improvement?


But if you don't think they'd be doing better with Peters and Cole (and even Dunlap) playing, then you don't much about football.No, I figure that Peters and Cole started four games each and the Eagles lost three of them, so their loss wasn't a factor in the team's slow start. The Redskins lost Jenkins, who was slated to start on the D-line. They lost him for the season. They also were without Landry and Atogwe for a couple of games.


As for the Giants, I don't know how you can say our depth is better than theirs, when they have guys go down, and they can come up with a player like Victor Cruz, and they have more talent than us.I can say that because I'm talking about "depth" not picking out one player as an exception.


And yes, we can improve QB. The question is it really going to be much of an improvement, especially in the context with the recent injuries (i.e. is Beck w/o the injured players really better than Grossman w/?).We will have to see how well the replacements play, but they aren't replacing All Pros. As for Beck over Grossman, I expect that to be a significant improvement because, although he wasn't my guy, I honestly thought that Rex would play better than he did because he played so well in the preseason and in game one. But, his play has dropped off sharply since game two..

[darrelgreenie]

Our defense is good.
Our special teams unit is good, good punter, good coverage (knocks on wood) up and coming kicker.
OL was decent not great; hopefully our injuries won't turn them into a liability.
Decent skill postion players.
Aggressive pass first offense.
Wide open division.

I would feel much better about Beck's chances if they didn't waste 5 games worth of development.
The move to start Rex at the begining of the season still leaves me troubled because for me it signals a lack a lack of faith or confidence in their convictions.

[SkinsFTW]

In one quarter he did something Rex couldn't do in three and that is score a touchdown.

He also converted our only 3rd down, and a 4th down, and had all the completions to Moss and Gaffney and if not for drops would have had pretty great stats too. A couple dirtballs but those are still better than throwing more completions to a Philly Safety than all of your WR's combined.

[tiger187126]

He also converted our only 3rd down, and a 4th down, and had all the completions to Moss and Gaffney and if not for drops would have had pretty great stats too. A couple dirtballs but those are still better than throwing more completions to a Philly Safety than all of your WR's combined.

people forget that the "punt" that he lead was actually a 50 yard field goal attempt and gano had already made one from that distance until the delay of game when we still had time outs.

[Skins Wingman]

people forget that the "punt" that he lead was actually a 50 yard field goal attempt and gano had already made one from that distance until the delay of game when we still had time outs.

a little off topic, but im trying to figure out why they didnt let him try the 55 or 56 yarder. we need to see what this kid can do.

[Redskins Life]

You got to find out what Beck has to offer. I just have to reflect on this comment, but not necessarily this poster. I find it very hypocritical how many posters have essentially been saying this same thing, yet many of these same posters (not all) were people who tried to castrate their fellow fans when they said the same thing a few years about Colt Brennan.

Now, I am in no way saying that Colt would have done anything, but he was more of an unknown than even Beck is. Also, as much as people want to beat up on Rex Grossman, Grossman actually has less than half the starts with much more success on his resume than what Jason Campbell had at that time (and still does). Yet, many fans say that we know what we have in Grossman. We didn't know what we had in Campbell?

Once again, I'm not saying that making a change then would make a difference, nor am I saying it would now. I just find the incredible hypocrisy of some of this board to be boarder-line psychotic, especially considering how vehemently nasty some of these posters have been to others in the past.

[tiger187126]

a little off topic, but im trying to figure out why they didnt let him try the 55 or 56 yarder. we need to see what this kid can do.

i think the game was too close. and btw, he's been a bright spot on the team after two years of people demanding that he be cut. but unless you're one of like 5 kickers in the nfl a 55-56 yarder just isn't realistic and it gives the other team the ball at almost the 50 yard line. when you really have a chance to win the game you don't want to squander it like that.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 08:46 AM ----------


I just have to reflect on this comment, but not necessarily this poster. I find it very hypocritical how many posters have essentially been saying this same thing, yet many of these same posters (not all) were people who tried to castrate their fellow fans when they said the same thing a few years about Colt Brennan.

Now, I am in no way saying that Colt would have done anything, but he was more of an unknown than even Beck is. Also, as much as people want to beat up on Rex Grossman, Grossman actually has less than half the starts with much more success on his resume than what Jason Campbell had at that time (and still does). Yet, many fans say that we know what we have in Grossman. We didn't know what we had in Campbell?

Once again, I'm not saying that making a change then would make a difference, nor am I saying it would now. I just find the incredible hypocrisy of some of this board to be boarder-line psychotic, especially considering how vehemently nasty some of these posters have been to others in the past.

the difference is we weren't losing games behind the one of the worst qbs in the NFL when campbell was starting. he was mediocre and people basically got bored.

rex is actively losing (or trying to lose) us games and the guy behind him didn't just light up 3rd string defenses, he took actual preseason reps with the first team and performed as well as the guy who got picked to start.

don't forget too, that someone else was always ahead of brennan even when he was given opportunities to overtake the #2 guy, so it wasn't realistic that he would ever get on the field.

[jsbaugh]

Non-skins fan. But, do people discount that the coaches know what they have in their two QBs? There has to be a reason they went with Rex over Beck, or else they suck as coaches, right? Either Beck doesn't know the system, struggles making pre-snap reads or other reasons, but I can't believe that a head coach with Mike Shanahan's experience would continue to insert Rex in the lineup if he had a better option that might fit his long-term need @ QB. My feeling is Beck has some major deficiencies that opposing defenses will be able to exploit just as much, or more than Rex's inability to avoid turnovers.

If the Shanahans still feel Rex's gives them the best chance to win then I must be blind, because in two series Beck had yesterday he sure looked like he could move the team and get points. Same thing in the preseason where Beck looked pretty good.

[Oldfan]

I just have to reflect on this comment, but not necessarily this poster. I find it very hypocritical how many posters have essentially been saying this same thing, yet many of these same posters (not all) were people who tried to castrate their fellow fans when they said the same thing a few years about Colt Brennan. Coming to different conclusions on different issues isn't a contradiction unless the issues are identical. The issues you describe were all about QBs. That fact doesn't make them identical issues. In fact, it would be nearly impossible to find two identical issues in such complex situations.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

What I find puzzling is that Rex clearly looked better during the pre-season. When the real games started, he just looked lost.
I don't agree with that. I thought he looked very sharp in the Giants game. I also thought he played well for the final 3 quarters of the Cardinals game. So, he played 7 of 8 very strong quarters of football to start the year. My theory is that teams realized he wasn't going to hurt you deep or to the sideline and started defending the middle of the field. It's no coincidence (to me) that each of the next two games contained a MLB dropping right into Rex's sweet spot for easy INTs. Then there was yesterday's meltdown. I'm guessing that Rex hasn't changed, but that defenses just know the possible places that he can complete passes and are only worrying about defending those places.

Nicely done. This has been my observation as well, with the added comment that Rex's receiving corps has been very disappointing. Part of that is the disappearance of Armstrong and Cooley to hamstring and knee injuries. Part of that is the inability of Gaffney and Davis to take their games to new levels (for example, catching contested deep passes). Part of that is Moss losing a gear and not being seen as a deep threat as he was in 2005.

In sum, defenses have adjusted to protect Grossman's favorite parts of the field (and Kyle's favorite combination routes), and the offense has not been able to adjust. That's partly on Grossman, partly on the receivers, and also partly on Kyle and Mike. The receivers who once ran free are now more closely covered by defenses. That's not on Rex.

[tiger187126]

Nicely done. This has been my observation as well, with the added comment that Rex's receiving corps has been very disappointing. Part of that is the disappearance of Armstrong and Cooley to hamstring and knee injuries. Part of that is the inability of Gaffney and Davis to take their games to new levels (for example, catching contested deep passes). Part of that is Moss losing a gear and not being seen as a deep threat as he was in 2005.

In sum, defenses have adjusted to protect Grossman's favorite parts of the field (and Kyle's favorite combination routes), and the offense has not been able to adjust. That's partly on Grossman, partly on the receivers, and also partly on Kyle and Mike. The receivers who once ran free are now more closely covered by defenses. That's not on Rex.

the real problem is that rex needs receivers to run wide open because he doesn't have the arm to fit in. also the playcaller having to abandon the sideline and the deep part of the field is 100% on the qb who can't make those throws.

that's like if you had a pitcher who couldn't throw anything but the fastball straight down the middle of the plate, but you blamed his pitching coach for not forcing him to try to make pitches that he can't.

rex only throws so many routes and even the ones that he can throw don't look good.

the truth is you spent the preseason making up excuses for rex and carefully cropping his stats to make him look better than he was while the rest of us pointed to the obvious truth that he turns the ball over at an alarming rate. well we're 5 games into the season and he's turned the ball over 11 times. that's an alarming rate. even more alarming is that you want to put it on other players when:

a) he's had a lot of poor decisions dropped by the other team

b) for his career he turns the ball over at least 2 times a game 50% of the time

for his career ASF. you can say that this situation is unique and it's not his fault, but he has always done this. so no matter what excuses you want to make, rex is who he's always been and he is the only constant in that.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

the real problem is that rex needs receivers to run wide open because he doesn't have the arm to fit in. also the playcaller having to abandon the sideline and the deep part of the field is 100% on the qb who can't make those throws.

The two deep INTs by Coleman should have been catches by Davis. On the first, he had better position than Coleman, and Coleman made a much better play on the ball. On the second, Davis failed to cut in front of Coleman and simply slowed down, allowing Coleman to jump ahead of him for the INT. Davis has correctly faulted himself for those INTs.

Two plays before the 4th INT, Davis dropped another deep pass (well thrown), setting up third and long and Grossman's very poor final throw.

The only pass that matches your description was the INT by Allen on an underthrown pass by Grossman. It was a great athletic INT by Allen, but Gaffney could have helped his QB by adjusting to the ball. That's something that Moss used to do well, adjusting to deep passes in flight.

In sum, I don't think the problems Sunday with deep passing were primarily on Grossman. However, you are correct that Rex has not shown much ability to spread the field with sideline passes, quick WR screens, or short passes to RBs. We saw more of such passes from Beck.

If you put together the sideline, screen and RB passing by Beck with Grossman's skill in intermediate passing, and some better effort by receivers on deep passes, we might have a complete passing game. The problem is a combination of weaknesses by both the QBs and the receivers. Beck offers a different set of tradeoffs, and I'm not sure that on balance they are better, aside from his edge in mobility. I think Beck would be shut down within a few games, once defenses adjusted to his skill set.

[SkinsNumberOne]

The two deep INTs by Coleman should have been catches by Davis. On the first, he had better position than Coleman, and Coleman made a much better play on the ball. On the second, Davis failed to cut in front of Coleman and simply slowed down, allowing Coleman to jump ahead of him for the INT. Davis has correctly faulted himself for those INTs.

Two plays before the 4th INT, Davis dropped another deep pass (well thrown), setting up third and long and Grossman's very poor final throw.


If I recall correctly, at least one of the throws you're blaming on Davis was a throw into triple-coverage. Grossman isn't the kind of QB who "should" have the confidence to throw those types of balls... but unfortunately he maintains that confidence. It's not a good combination.

[tiger187126]

The two deep INTs by Coleman should have been catches by Davis. On the first, he had better position than Coleman, and Coleman made a much better play on the ball. On the second, Davis failed to cut in front of Coleman and simply slowed down, allowing Coleman to jump ahead of him for the INT. Davis has correctly faulted himself for those INTs.

Two plays before the 4th INT, Davis dropped another deep pass (well thrown), setting up third and long and Grossman's very poor final throw.

The only pass that matches your description was the INT by Allen on an underthrown pass by Grossman. It was a great athletic INT by Allen, but Gaffney could have helped his QB by adjusting to the ball. That's something that Moss used to do well, adjusting to deep passes in flight.

In sum, I don't think the problems Sunday with deep passing were primarily on Grossman. However, you are correct that Rex has not shown much ability to spread the field with sideline passes, quick WR screens, or short passes to RBs. We saw more of such passes from Beck.

If you put together the sideline, screen and RB passing by Beck with Grossman's skill in intermediate passing, and some better effort by receivers on deep passes, we might have a complete passing game. The problem is a combination of weaknesses by both the QBs and the receivers. Beck offers a different set of tradeoffs, and I'm not sure that on balance they are better, aside from his edge in mobility. I think Beck would be shut down within a few games, once defenses adjusted to his skill set.

listen ASF, stop.

just stop.

it is the definition of insanity to keep blaming everything rex does wrong on everyone else. i mean there are 32 other qbs that play every week and yet you keep telling me that grossman is the only one that has to deal with this adversity. and not just here, but in his past as well.

he must be the most unlucky guy in the whole wide world.

you can break it down however you want, but until beck starts turning the ball over 2 times a game for 5 games he's just the better option. he has the ability to run when something isn't open as opposed to just forcing it into coverage.

but just drop the rex is a victim thing:


Grossman has turned the ball over in every game he’s appeared in with the Redskins. Even in his limited playing time in the famous “cardiovascular endurance” Lions game Grossman managed to lose a fumble.

Grossman has turned the ball over 2 or more times in 6 of his 8 starts.

Grossman has turned the ball over 2 or more times in 23 of his 47 career games. 50% of the time this guy steps on the field he’s going to give the ball to the other team 2 or more times.

Grossman has turned the ball over 3 or more times in 12 of his 47 career games. He’s unbelievably good at being bad.

you know even if it has been someone elses fault for every single one of those, i still would cut rex because it happens on his watch every single time.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

In sum, defenses have adjusted to protect Grossman's favorite parts of the field (and Kyle's favorite combination routes), and the offense has not been able to adjust. That's partly on Grossman, partly on the receivers, and also partly on Kyle and Mike. The receivers who once ran free are now more closely covered by defenses. That's not on Rex.

Good additions...I have been a little disappointed that we don't appear to have anyone able to bail out the QBs. Then again, knowing this is the case, maybe the QBs shouldn't be throwing up contested passes. But it's tough on our QBs since it seems like every other team has a couple options where they can throw a jump ball and know that it's either going to be a catch or incompletion. Moss losing a step has been obvious and it has to be the reason we have Armstrong, Austin, etc. on the roster. At least Moss can still do a lot of things very, very well.

[Mahons21]

I'm becoming of the belief that we may truly need to draft a WR early next year. I know this will be met with vitriol because of how log jammed we are at the position with mediocre talents, but looking around the league a young QB's best friend is a dominant WR. AJ Green has been doing his best CJ impression, and IMO is immensely helping the development of Dalton.

We need someone who will go up and get the ball at it's highest point, someone who when met with 1 on 1 coverage is automatic.

I don't watch enough college football, but could Blackmon be the guy?

[tiger187126]

I'm becoming of the belief that we may truly need to draft a WR early next year. I know this will be met with vitriol because of how log jammed we are at the position with mediocre talents, but looking around the league a young QB's best friend is a dominant WR. AJ Green has been doing his best CJ impression, and IMO is immensely helping the development of Dalton.

We need someone who will go up and get the ball at it's highest point, someone who when met with 1 on 1 coverage is automatic.

I don't watch enough college football, but could Blackmon be the guy?

but if we draft a qbs best friend and pass on a qb we set that back yet another year.

if you want a year or two until the rookie starts then that's another year wasted and that means we're talking the 2013-2014 season until we see a qb we can root for the future with.

i don't want to waste another year of grossman esque qbing.

[Gurgeh]

but if we draft a qbs best friend and pass on a qb we set that back yet another year.

if you want a year or two until the rookie starts then that's another year wasted and that means we're talking the 2013-2014 season until we see a qb we can root for the future with.

i don't want to waste another year of grossman esque qbing.

Yeah it is a tough position, but we need the QB first. At worst, if it isn't looking like Hankerson or Paul is going to cut it, we can trade for a reciever - any coming up in FA next year?

[Mahons21]

but if we draft a qbs best friend and pass on a qb we set that back yet another year.
You can draft both positions in one draft, both don't need to come from the 1st round. In addition it's possible to trade up, if I'm not mistaken we have a couple extra picks already this season.


if you want a year or two until the rookie starts then that's another year wasted and that means we're talking the 2013-2014 season until we see a qb we can root for the future with.
The hope is a rookie QB won't need to ride pine for a season if he has a dominant WR.

Just my opinion, I don't know nearly enough about the coming FA/draft class to truly make an accurate assessment of the situation right now, but as it stands I think I'm one of the few Skins fans that would be smiling and not screaming if we drafted a WR.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I'm becoming of the belief that we may truly need to draft a WR early next year. I know this will be met with vitriol because of how log jammed we are at the position with mediocre talents, but looking around the league a young QB's best friend is a dominant WR. AJ Green has been doing his best CJ impression, and IMO is immensely helping the development of Dalton.

We need someone who will go up and get the ball at it's highest point, someone who when met with 1 on 1 coverage is automatic.

I don't watch enough college football, but could Blackmon be the guy?

I think we can focus on QB, WR, and OL and attempt to revamp our offense the way we revamped our defense this year. Between the draft and FA, we should be able to add impact players at those 3 positions since our RBs, TEs, and most defensive personnel are OK for now.

[tiger187126]

You can draft both positions in one draft, both don't need to come from the 1st round. In addition it's possible to trade up, if I'm not mistaken we have a couple extra picks already this season.


The hope is a rookie QB won't need to ride pine for a season if he has a dominant WR.

Just my opinion, I don't know nearly enough about the coming FA/draft class to truly make an accurate assessment of the situation right now, but as it stands I think I'm one of the few Skins fans that would be smiling and not screaming if we drafted a WR.

the problem is, this is just fast food analysis.

oh well look at cincy, they're doing great, anyone can do that.

they're the only team that's playing that way and who knows if it will last all year.

we drafted hankerson last year and he's getting time to figure out nfl speed and how to be a professional player.

just saying we can pick up an elite WR and quarterback of the future up in the same draft and everything will be hunky doory is a joke.

[Oldfan]

Good additions...I have been a little disappointed that we don't appear to have anyone able to bail out the QBs. Then again, knowing this is the case, maybe the QBs shouldn't be throwing up contested passes. But it's tough on our QBs since it seems like every other team has a couple options where they can throw a jump ball and know that it's either going to be a catch or incompletion. Moss losing a step has been obvious and it has to be the reason we have Armstrong, Austin, etc. on the roster. At least Moss can still do a lot of things very, very well.You and ASF are missing the bottom line: Rex is easy to defend. On the Saturday prior to the Cardinals game, in Tarhog's thread, I explained how defenses could easily take away a big chunk of Rex's game. He throws a low, soft pass on rhythm and with a slow release. The interior defenders can penetrate and easily time their blocks or they can drop into short zones. The Cardinals did exactly that and had five tipped balls in the game. Rex was very lucky that none were intercepted. He was able to bat two to the ground himself.

Even though Beck throws a low ball also, he throws with plenty of zip and from a very quick release. He makes it much more difficult for linemen to time their leaps. This, added to the fact that he can roll quickly to either side or run the ball gives defenses a much tougher job.

[Mahons21]

the problem is, this is just fast food analysis.

oh well look at cincy, they're doing great, anyone can do that.
You've quickly reminded me why I should ignore you all together.

Just because I offer CIN as a recent example, doesn't mean they're the only team in the history of the NFL to draft a dominant WR to help a young QB, or the only team I'm basing my analysis after.


they're the only team that's playing that way and who knows if it will last all year.
huh? I'm not referring to how their team is playing, I'm referring to how AJ Green has IMO been a large impact on the development of Andy Dalton. It helps a QB to have a WR that allows them to get away with less than accurate throws that with other WR's would be incomplete or even worse interceptions.


we drafted hankerson last year and he's getting time to figure out nfl speed and how to be a professional player.
While other WR's are already making a name for themselves. I don't think we should cut bait with Hankerson, but it's rather optimistic to believe he'll ever be a dominant WR IMO.


just saying we can pick up an elite WR and quarterback of the future up in the same draft and everything will be hunky doory is a joke.

The #1 reason I don't debate with you, you don't debate against what I say. Rather you create extreme straw-mans and argue against those. Sure is easy to argue against the idea that draft WR/QB and everything will be dandy. It might be more difficult to formulate an argument against how dominant WRs can help develop young QBs, which has been my point you choose to ignore.

But please point to where I said I believed it would all work out perfectly. Please point to where I said anything of the sort, I would love to see where I said that.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 12:45 PM ----------


I think we can focus on QB, WR, and OL and attempt to revamp our offense the way we revamped our defense this year. Between the draft and FA, we should be able to add impact players at those 3 positions since our RBs, TEs, and most defensive personnel are OK for now.

I would love to see that, possibly with some help at ILB, NT scattered in there.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I would love to see that, possibly with some help at ILB, NT scattered in there.

Yep...it would be awesome if we could finish off the D (more or less) and upgrade those key positions on O. I think we'd be ready to roll forward for 3-5 years after that (while continuing to backfill with drafts).

[Enter Apotheosis]

2 cents from a Cowboys fan: ( I understand if you stop reading now haha)

Grossman gives Washington the better chance to win the division. What you saw this weekend is what makes him Rex, and why he didn't stick as the Bears starter. He'll be average most of the time, occasionally great(See last years Dallas game) and then sometimes he'll be flat out horrible.

Basically a less talented version of Romo.

Other than a tendency to force throws, Romo and Grossman have absolutely nothing in common.


While this isn't ideal, let's be honest, at this point Beck is all hype and potential. He's been in the league awhile, hardly played, and when he has played he hasn't exactly impressed. Beck is a complete unknown. Unless Shanny actually believes Beck could be the franchise QB, I don't see the point in switching now.

Shanahan doesn't have to believe that Beck is a franchise QB to make the change, he just needs to believe that Beck gives this team a better shot to win games. Based on the little we've seen of Beck and Grossman in skins uniforms, it would not be a stretch at all to think that Beck represents a marked improvement in several different areas.

[Skinsinparadise]

The move to start Rex at the begining of the season still leaves me troubled because for me it signals a lack a lack of faith or confidence in their convictions.

Last preseason Keiland Williams beat Ryan Torain for a RB position and Devin Thomas beat out Banks for kick off returner. Stuff like that happens all the time in the NFL. Victor Cruz was beat out for a starting position with the Giants, now he looks like a more reliable target than Manningham. I don't think a guy getting beat out (according to Shanny by just a little) in the preseason but then overtaking the starter in the regular seasons, means anything IMO to the big picture. Happens plenty of time especially for an inexperienced player versus an experienced one.

Plus 2 things I've noticed based on Shanny's previous quotes

1. He's said in the past that he thinks an inexperienced QB can learn a lot by watching from the sideline. Heck Beck himself said the same in the preseason when he was watching Rex run the offense -- though he didn't add the idea that he was inexperienced.

2. Shanny seems to make a lot of how players play in practice.

Recent developments have 1. Beck watching 4.5 games on the sidelines which hopefully bolster his knowledge of the offense. 2. shanny said on Sunday that Beck has looked real good the last TWO weeks in practice. If you notice he didn't say the last month or two months but the last two weeks. So maybe Shanny has been looking for certain lights to go on Beck's head and now he's seeing it.

[darrelgreenie]

Last preseason Keiland Williams beat Ryan Torain for a RB position and Devin Thomas beat out Banks for kick off returner. Stuff like that happens all the time in the NFL. Victor Cruz was beat out for a starting position with the Giants, now he looks like a more reliable target than Manningham. I don't think a guy getting beat out (according to Shanny by just a little) in the preseason but then overtaking the starter in the regular seasons, means anything IMO to the big picture. Happens plenty of time especially for an inexperienced player versus an experienced one.Quite right, but we're talking about the QB not a RB or a KR.
Stuff like that does happens but those decisions are still mistakes.

Knowing that Beck and Rex were very close during the offseason competetion only make the decision to go with Beck even worse in my eyes.

A QB in Rex's position (experienced, with scheme specific knowledge and recent playing time at the end of last season) should easily beat out an dude that has 4 career starts and no game experience in several years.
According to reports they really expected Beck to win the job; then suddenly, last minute, went with Rex Grossman.
To me this suggests that they were gun shy about Beck.

And imo if you lack the faith in your convictions about thee most important position on the team, especially following the failure of the previous chosen QB, then I'm gonna be troubled.
You shouldn't second guess yourself on such a crucial issue to the team's success.
And if you are unsure then that lack of conviction cannot be new, it must have been presented itself earlier.
And if it was present earlier then why not make moves to assuage any reservations at the most important position on the team?

The idea that they were planning to go with Beck and that Beck played even with a challenger (Rex) that had every advantage in the competition* is troubling to me.

I find it troubling that they would scrap their entire off season QB plan to go with Rex Grossman.



*(to include Beck coming off dead arm and pulled groin. which btw was caused by the FO own short sightedness to only have Beck in camp taking all the reps usually a duty that falls on a minimum of 2-3 QBs)

[SkinsFTW]

You and ASF are missing the bottom line: Rex is easy to defend.

Exactly, his ball is so slow that the reason that ASF blames the receiver isn't an issue with a QB that can get the ball to them faster. Grossman's throws give the defense the time to react and jump in front of Davis, and he doesn't throw to the sidelines often because those routes would get jumped more often than not. The field is just too big for Grossman. He'd be a great qb if they halved the field, lol.

[tiger187126]

ok mahons, give me examples of a dominant WR and QB being drafted in the same year on the same team and having success, since a quarter season in cincy isn't your only example this should be easy.

[Skinsinparadise]

Quite right, but we're talking about the QB not a RB or a KR.
Stuff like that does happens but those decisions are still mistakes.

Knowing that Beck and Rex were very close during the offseason competetion only make the decision to go with Beck even worse in my eyes.

We've gone back and forth enough on this for me to start thinking it seems like you have some pent up frustration at Shanny on the Qb position? If so, I can understand, McNabb was a screw up, I gather you liked some Qb prospects in the draft, and you liked some free agents and he bypassed them, and you wanted Beck to win the position so I am gathering you have built up frustration towards Shanny? If so, that's probably our difference. McNabb is a screw up. As for the rest of it, i don't recall care how ugly it is to watch how the sausage is being made, as long as I am ultimately eating sausage. And since I like how the rest of the meal is being made, I'll give them a chance to make the sausage. For me, I just don't care how they arrive to wherever they arrive as long as they get to the destination. The key for me is i don't expect them to win the Superbowl this year or next one.

It be like me back when I was single if I was going back and forth between 2 girls, I choose the wrong one and then realized it and broke up with her early on in the relationship and ended up with the right one. As I am going out with her, I wouldn't beat myself up for choosing the wrong one initially. It's life you aren't going to make good decisions all the time, and if you got the guts to correct a bad decision as opposed to ride it, I admire that,

Now we are assuming that Beck is the starter. I think there is still a shot that Rex starts this Sunday. Then I'll share your frustration, actually for me it would turn to anger. :D did you hear Orkapo's comments, they were harsh -- implying that starting Beck means they are rebuilding and they aren't in rebuilding mode.

[SkinsFTW]

If Grossman starts again this week then it would really be saying that the so called "QB competition" in the preseason wasn't really what we thought. There is no reason a turnover machine should start when there isn't any reason to expect him to play better. He's only gotten worse as defenses have taken his small portion of the field away from him and forced him to make riskier throws that he can't make.

That Safety had 3 receptions against Grossman, Moss and Gaffney had 0. Grossman converted 0 of 7 3rd down attempts. This was after playing less than average for the 2 previous games as well.

[Mahons21]

ok mahons, give me examples of a dominant WR and QB being drafted in the same year on the same team and having success, since a quarter season in cincy isn't your only example this should be easy.

Why do they have to be drafted the same year I never said that. My point is dominant WR's can help QB's, and in addition they're a great asset to have when developing a QB.

Since we're a young team still in the early process of rebuilding I'd rather draft said player than acquire an older player via FA, or even worse trade for a player.

What you're doing here is desperately attempting to debate at my semantics, and create an argument against my choice of words. Just because I'm discussing the skins specific case, doesn't mean my overall point is that teams should draft WR/QB combos in the same year. My point is dominant WR's help developing QB's, in the skins specific case I would like to see this WR come from the draft. No this does not mean it will work perfectly, it's just the route I find preferable.




Manning- Harrison/Wayne
Big Ben - Plax
Phil Rivers - Gates
Ryan - White
Stafford - CJ
Dalton - AJ Green
Schaub - Andre Johnson
Culpepper - Moss

[Enter Apotheosis]

Why do they have to be drafted the same year I never said that. My point is dominant WR's can help QB's, and in addition they're a great asset to have when developing a QB.

It could also be said that good QBs can help WRs to become dominant. Bit of a chicken or the egg deal, really.

[BADKCLARK]

If Grossman starts again this week then it would really be saying that the so called "QB competition" in the preseason wasn't really what we thought. There is no reason a turnover machine should start when there isn't any reason to expect him to play better. He's only gotten worse as defenses have taken his small portion of the field away from him and forced him to make riskier throws that he can't make.

That Safety had 3 receptions against Grossman, Moss and Gaffney had 0. Grossman converted 0 of 7 3rd down attempts. This was after playing less than average for the 2 previous games as well.

Then in comes Beck with ZERO time w/ the starters since Preseason, and in 2 drives is able to orchestrate a TD drive. One QB is regressing, and the other is awaiting his chance to prove himself.

[tiger187126]

It could also be said that good QBs can help WRs to become dominant. Bit of a chicken or the egg deal, really.

hey look at that. logical thinking.

tom brady wins 3 super bowls with shaky receivers, then gets randy moss and doesn't win any.

does green bay really have 6 all star receivers or does rogers make them look good.

how are harrison and wayne without peyton? (if harrison stops shooting people and played football anymore)

how is matty ice without his RB? becuase him + roddy - turner = not a good team. they even sold the farm to get him another receiver and they're still not doing it without the running game.

and so on.

[Mahons21]

It could also be said that good QBs can help WRs to become dominant. Bit of a chicken or the egg deal, really.

Very true, but in instances like Stafford/Dalton/Schaub/Rivers can just lob it up to their guy, I tend to believe it has more to do with the WR play than the passes which are even sometimes off target.

Manning Wayne/Harrison is a different deal, Manning has done quite well with Garcon/Collie as well, but would Manning have developed the same way without having those security blankets early in his career?

[Houston2Taylor2Landry]

This is what it comes down to IMO.

Completely off topic and I apologize, but how do you make your signature a GIF, 98QBK?

[Mahons21]

hey look at that. logical thinking.
Then you disagree that dominant WR's helping a young QB is logical thinking.

If it's surprise to you to see logical thinking, you must think that my point, which oddly enough I've had to repeat to you again in every post, isn't logical thinking. Again my point is a dominant WR can help the development or performance of any QB, this isn't rocket science, and I can't believe you're disagreeing with it to this point.


tom brady wins 3 super bowls with shaky receivers, then gets randy moss and doesn't win any.
Seriously did you bring this up? It doesn't help your case at all. First off the Patriots not Tom Brady won and lost those superbowls, and it just so happens they're dominant defense had already started rapidly fading by the time Moss was there.

Randy Moss immensely helped Brady, claiming that just because they lost 1 game on the season which happened to be the SB as evidence of a case to the contrary is ludicrous.


does green bay really have 6 all star receivers or does rogers make them look good.
RoDgers Makes them look good in some instances and in other instances they take 90 yard passes to the house, it's give and take. In addition I never said all QB's need dominant WR's to develop, some have other luxuries IE sitting on the bench behind a HOFer and getting a chance to full grasp the system.


how is matty ice without his RB? becuase him + roddy - turner = not a good team. they even sold the farm to get him another receiver and they're still not doing it without the running game.

and so on.
What is your point? How is this relevant to White impacting Ryan's development? He still developed quickly, and the help of a dominant WR helped.

[tiger187126]

Very true, but in instances like Stafford/Dalton/Schaub/Rivers can just lob it up to their guy, I tend to believe it has more to do with the WR play than the passes which are even sometimes off target.

Manning Wayne/Harrison is a different deal, Manning has done quite well with Garcon/Collie as well, but would Manning have developed the same way without having those security blankets early in his career?

how many guys in the league can you just "lob it up" to and they'll come down with it?

and you say that like you or i could just out there and throw a ball into triple coverage and have a guy catch it. that's not true. there's a lot involved in placement of a jump ball, it's placing the ball where your guy catches it or no one catches it and that involves a lot of skill by the qb, and exponentially more on deeper throws.

you're overestimating the WR and underestimating the QB on "jump balls"

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You and ASF are missing the bottom line: Rex is easy to defend.

I don't think I missed that point at all. See post 83.

[Mahons21]

how many guys in the league can you just "lob it up" to and they'll come down with it?
Johnson, Johnson, Green, Plax in his prime, Randy in his prime, AJ Green 1 on 1, Roddy White 1 on 1,


and you say that like you or i could just out there and throw a ball into triple coverage and have a guy catch it. that's not true. there's a lot involved in placement of a jump ball, it's placing the ball where your guy catches it or no one catches it and that involves a lot of skill by the qb, and exponentially more on deeper throws.

you're overestimating the WR and underestimating the QB on "jump balls"
This discussion is over.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Very true, but in instances like Stafford/Dalton/Schaub/Rivers can just lob it up to their guy, I tend to believe it has more to do with the WR play than the passes which are even sometimes off target.

Even with those guys it's tough to judge just how dependent a QB is on that ability to lob one up to a reliable target. Phillip Rivers, for example, is having a rougher go of things this season with Vincent Jackson than he did last season without him. Matt Schaub hasn't put together great games without Andre Johnson but he's also played three pretty good defenses in that span and has had very few problems with involving other players in the passing game.


Manning Wayne/Harrison is a different deal, Manning has done quite well with Garcon/Collie as well, but would Manning have developed the same way without having those security blankets early in his career?

Harrison didn't explode until Manning's second year, so even that's not clear cut, and Wayne didn't emerge as a threat until Manning was already in his prime.

[Oldfan]

On an interesting related note: I wondered whether Santana had explained his support for Grossman further. I couldn't find a comment related to strategy. This was the reason he gave.


Santana ~“You don’t want to be given up on like that as a player,” Moss said. “That’s all I can say. If you’re the guy in that shoes, would you want to be given up on because you had a bad outing? No. Therefore, that’s why I feel the way I feel.”

It's empathy. Santana puts himself into Rex's shoes and doesn't want him to be treated unfairly. His support isn't related to winning football games. Santana's just a decent man.

[tiger187126]

..snip..

1) i think you overvalue WRs and undervalue QBs.

2) it does help my case because tom brady made his bones throwing to the worst receivers he's probably had since. so if this makes him a better QB because he has to be more accurate with lesser receivers, then what does that say about your reasoning? uh oh, logical opposition. tom brady's work with lesser receivers has made him the qb he is today and allowed him to put up eye popping numbers when he gets better weapons, but he was already polished when they got there. and yes, losing the super bowl with a feeble offensive performance when you have randy moss and tom brady is evidence whether you like it or not.

3) rogers (the D is silent, it's proper form to remove silent letters from super bowl winning quarterbacks. i like your implication that the assumed misspelling of his name in someway invalidates my opinion, good one) makes them look good when he throws a sideline pass over the head of the defender allowing them to take the pass 90 yards. we aren't talking screens here. rogers (doesn't it drive you nuts? the perfectionist in you must die reading that) is an example so you can get your head around qb's making wide outs better, as is brady, and manning.

4) how did ryan develop quickly? because he got a nickname from espn? he still looks lost in big games and has yet to prove he can win when something goes wrong, like losing michael turner or having to play a better QB. and now he has 2 dominant WRs and he's still not anywhere near the level that you can call him developed.

my point is, your logic is flawed.

dominant WRs aren't in the draft every year, and your definition of dominant is loose at best. have you watched a cincy game this year? i doubt it, because AJ Green is not doing a Megatron impression. i haven't seen a catch he's made that's not open or was a bad throw.

qbs have a lot more to do with dominant receivers than you give them credit for. that's pretty self explanatory.

young qbs become better passers by not having the crutch of a "dominant" wr that they can just "chuck it up to"

the ball is in your court sir.

[Oldfan]

I don't think I missed that point at all. See post 83.#83 was close enough. I retract my statement in your case. Apologies.

[Mahons21]

Even with those guys it's tough to judge just how dependent a QB is on that ability to lob one up to a reliable target. Phillip Rivers, for example, is having a rougher go of things this season with Vincent Jackson than he did last season without him. Matt Schaub hasn't put together great games without Andre Johnson but he's also played three pretty good defenses in that span and has had very few problems with involving other players in the passing game.
Rivers safety blanket/dominant receiver has and always will be Gates, not Jackson. Gates has been injured all year more or less.

Are you suggesting Schaub is as good w/o Johnson? We both know that's not the case. In addition my point has been that while dominant WR's help all QB's they're especially helpful when a young QB is developing. They give the young QB is a safety blanket by making acrobatic catches that would in most instances be incomplete or even possibly an INT, Green has been doing this for Dalton all year. If you see the highlights a fair share of these passes are off target, Green is just playing the ball better than the DB in every instance. In my opinion this can help a QB's confidence in both themselves and the offense. Just my 2 cents, never thought claiming a dominant WR can help develop a young QB would be met with so much disagreement.




Harrison didn't explode until Manning's second year, so even that's not clear cut, and Wayne didn't emerge as a threat until Manning was already in his prime.
I don't find these cases to be as clear cut, as I stated in my first response to you.

[darrelgreenie]

We've gone back and forth enough on this for me to start thinking it seems like you have some pent up frustration at Shanny on the Qb position?
In a 'QB driven league' this regime has already failed once at thee pivotal position.
And based on the level of play at the QB position this year, short of Beck turning into Ryan Fitzpatrick or Trent Green (if he even gets the chance to play), it appears they're failing at the QB position again.
That would make 2 years of failed QB moves.
I expect a little better.
Especially since the other moves they made have put the team in a position to be competitive right now, and our bottom of the league level of QB play could be the reason we don't reach our potential.


If so, I can understand, McNabb was a screw up, I gather you liked some Qb prospects in the draft, and you liked some free agents and he bypassed them, and you wanted Beck to win the position so I am gathering you have built up frustration towards Shanny?I'm a results driven person, I try not to judge on perceptions or predictions but on outcomes.
Are you happy with the decisions or level of QB play under this regime?
Its the results that leave me troubled not the process that lead to the results.
I find it troubling that they made mistakes at the most important position.


For me, I just don't care how they arrive to wherever they arrive as long as they get to the destination. The key for me is i don't expect them to win the Superbowl this year or next oneI don't care how we arrive either, but when the journey begins with 2 wrong turns I'm gonna get nervous.


It's life you aren't going to make good decisions all the time, and if you got the guts to correct a bad decision as opposed to ride it, I admire thatI admire people that don't repeat the same major mistakes.
I would be mad at myself if I did and I would hope would of my buddies would ask me: the eff is wrong with you?


Now we are assuming that Beck is the starter. I think there is still a shot that Rex starts this Sunday.I'm not making any assumptions:
Rex could start in Carolina and it wouldn't shock me.
Starting Beck is an admission of a mistake.
If Rex is Kyle's guy then playing Rex against the Panthers weak defense is a no brainer.
Its a chance to save face or to lose even more credibility.
I have no reason to trust their thought process at this point


Then I'll share your frustrationI'm actually not frustrated its more like a mix of fear and dissappointment.
If you're into Matrix I feel like Morpheus: 'I dreamed a dream and know that dream has come for me'
I was a huge fan of Mike Shanahan and his Denver WCO and success with QBs.
I thought that was the offense we would get and I expected success/solid production from the QB position typical with QB 'gurus'.
Instead we have an imbalanced offense with repeated failures at the QB position.


did you hear Orkapo's comments, they were harsh -- implying that starting Beck means they are rebuilding and they aren't in rebuilding mode.I heard Orkapo.(I've been listening to ESPN980 again). I was surprised to hear his view about Beck and I'm not sure if he realized what he was implying or maybe he did?
Not surprised to hear his view about the season.
Coaches and players are almost always in win now mode.
Like my old first sergeant used to say: Time now.

[tiger187126]

Even with those guys it's tough to judge just how dependent a QB is on that ability to lob one up to a reliable target. Phillip Rivers, for example, is having a rougher go of things this season with Vincent Jackson than he did last season without him. Matt Schaub hasn't put together great games without Andre Johnson but he's also played three pretty good defenses in that span and has had very few problems with involving other players in the passing game.



Harrison didn't explode until Manning's second year, so even that's not clear cut, and Wayne didn't emerge as a threat until Manning was already in his prime.

he said the argument is over because i said throwing a "lob" isn't just something anyone can do and it takes a good qb to properly throw a lob pass.

mahons is not good at the internet, maybe he can debate in real life, but he always just says the same stuff over and over again and takes arguments against him personally.

if the lob rule was true, CJ would have the same season with Stafford or Stanton because either one could just chuck it up.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 05:42 PM ----------


Just my 2 cents, never thought claiming a dominant WR can help develop a young QB would be met with so much disagreement..

on this message board, you said something that you didn't think you would have to defend?

i'm sorry if you truly feel like you shouldn't have to defend your OPINION, but it's an OPINION.

hell FACTS get debated on here.

i would like you to rebutt my rebuttal to your dominant WRs help young qbs.

in case you didn't read it was: lesser WRs make a qb better by not bailing him out and forcing him to make better throws.

[Oldfan]

.

tiger, This is what you wrote that probably pissed off Mahons:


and you say that like you or i could just out there and throw a ball into triple coverage and have a guy catch it. that's not true. That's a strawman argument and it wasn't your first. It's a common logical fallacy in debates in this forum.

The first rule of good debate is to try to understand exactly what your opponent is saying. Don't twist his words into something stupid.

This is another strawman:


on this message board, you said something that you didn't think you would have to defend?

[Mahons21]

it does help my case because tom brady made his bones throwing to the worst receivers he's probably had since. so if this makes him a better QB because he has to be more accurate with lesser receivers, then what does that say about your reasoning? uh oh, logical opposition. tom brady's work with lesser receivers has made him the qb he is today and allowed him to put up eye popping numbers when he gets better weapons, but he was already polished when they got there. and yes, losing the super bowl with a feeble offensive performance when you have randy moss and tom brady is evidence whether you like it or not.
This is all over the place and makes little to no sense. Tom Brady was a better QB with Randy Moss as WR, plain and simple. I never said he developed him, I referred to Daunte for that. In addition, I've never said every QB needs a dominant WR to develop, I've only said it helps.


3) rogers (the D is silent, it's proper form to remove silent letters from super bowl winning quarterbacks. i like your implication that the assumed misspelling of his name in someway invalidates my opinion, good one) makes them look good when he throws a sideline pass over the head of the defender allowing them to take the pass 90 yards. we aren't talking screens here. rogers (doesn't it drive you nuts? the perfectionist in you must die reading that) is an example so you can get your head around qb's making wide outs better, as is brady, and manning.
I can't even reply I'm laughing so hard.. Seriously...


4) how did ryan develop quickly? because he got a nickname from espn? he still looks lost in big games and has yet to prove he can win when something goes wrong, like losing michael turner or having to play a better QB. and now he has 2 dominant WRs and he's still not anywhere near the level that you can call him developed.

Any QB getting 28 TD's to 9 INT's in their 3rd year is developed in my book. Don't know what type of #'s you expect.


my point is, your logic is flawed.
Lol, so my logic that drafting a WR helps a young QB is flawed? You've got to be kidding me... I can't tell whether or not you're actually being serious at this point or just a lonely troll.


dominant WRs aren't in the draft every year,
No kidding...

and your definition of dominant is loose at best.
I was unaware I defined it.


have you watched a cincy game this year? i doubt it, because AJ Green is not doing a Megatron impression. i haven't seen a catch he's made that's not open or was a bad throw.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ansp1OouJE&feature=related





qbs have a lot more to do with dominant receivers than you give them credit for. that's pretty self explanatory.
You have no idea how much credit I give them for, I've never stated it. I've stated that WR's help them develop, it's true. I never said it's not reciprocal.


young qbs become better passers by not having the crutch of a "dominant" wr that they can just "chuck it up to"

the ball is in your court sir.
That's your opinion, I think most NFL coaches would disagree, otherwise there would never be a reason to acquire a #1 WR unless you had a developed QB. That's silly to me, I'd rather give a young QB help, and then once the QB has established himself, a dominant WR core won't be as necessary.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 06:57 PM ----------


.

tiger, This is what you wrote that probably pissed off Mahons:

That's a strawman argument and it wasn't your first. It's a common logical fallacy in debates in this forum.


The first rule of good debate is to try to understand exactly what your opponent is saying. Don't twist his words into something stupid.

Not but a few pages before you say that OF


The #1 reason I don't debate with you, you don't debate against what I say. Rather you create extreme straw-mans and argue against those. Sure is easy to argue against the idea that draft WR/QB and everything will be dandy. It might be more difficult to formulate an argument against how dominant WRs can help develop young QBs, which has been my point you choose to ignore.

I should have taken my own advice.

[tiger187126]

.

tiger, This is what you wrote that probably pissed off Mahons:

That's a strawman argument and it wasn't your first. It's a common logical fallacy in debates in this forum.

The first rule of good debate is to try to understand exactly what your opponent is saying. Don't twist his words into something stupid.

i apologize for that, but all he needed to say was what you said, and give me something to go off of. he hates me anyway so i don't read into when he huffs off. i'm glad you brought it up though and i'll try to avoid it in the future.

so that everyone is clear what i was trying to say is:

throwing a "lob" pass is not something that is easy to do and takes a skilled player to do it. i am sorry to mahons if he didn't imply the opposite, and i just misunderstood.

*side note: when the hell did you sneak in here oldfan, scrolling up to try to find the post i was going off of i saw you posted a couple times.

[Mahons21]

i apologize for that, but all he needed to say was what you said, and give me something to go off of. he hates me anyway so i don't read into when he huffs off. i'm glad you brought it up though and i'll try to avoid it in the future.

after the 2nd time you quoted me

The #1 reason I don't debate with you, you don't debate against what I say. Rather you create extreme straw-mans and argue against those. Sure is easy to argue against the idea that draft WR/QB and everything will be dandy. It might be more difficult to formulate an argument against how dominant WRs can help develop young QBs, which has been my point you choose to ignore

[TD_washingtonredskins]

#83 was close enough. I retract my statement in your case. Apologies.

Oh no worries...I just didn't want people to think I was excusing Rex. He's very limited. I just think that he, and any QB, would benefit from WRs and TEs who attacked the ball a little more aggressively.

[tiger187126]

after the 2nd time you quoted me

the phrase "straw man argument" is one of the most overused phrases on this entire board. everything you write on here is going to be translated and interpreted by multiple people and if you are misunderstood or taken differently then you have been intended then i think that there's some fault on the end of the author as well as the reader.

we have people on here that don't speak english as a first language, have different levels of intelligence (both football and just standard), different levels of grammar, etc.

i don't get accused a whole lot of misinterpreting what people are saying or putting up strawman arguments, but the night is young.

i would quote you directly and make my response, but the quote function is tedious and it gets convoluted to read an entire paragraph with footnotes.

so lets start this over and work on one thing at a time:

you say:


Just my 2 cents, never thought claiming a dominant WR can help develop a young QB would be met with so much disagreement.

and i say:


lesser WRs make a qb better by not bailing him out and forcing him to make better throws.

[Oldfan]

Oh no worries...I just didn't want people to think I was excusing Rex. He's very limited. I just think that he, and any QB, would benefit from WRs and TEs who attacked the ball a little more aggressively.It's a problem on our team, no doubt.

[SkinsFTW]

Then in comes Beck with ZERO time w/ the starters since Preseason, and in 2 drives is able to orchestrate a TD drive. One QB is regressing, and the other is awaiting his chance to prove himself.

And his other drive was screwed by a penalty and several dropped passes. Take ASF's talent for manipulating stats and apply it to Beck and he goes 12-15 for 200+ yards a TD pass and his TD run in the 4th quarter. If those drops were catches we potentially win instead of lose the game. :D

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It's a problem, no doubt.

So...tomorrow's the big day. I have to say that I'm pretty excited to see what Beck can do for four quarters. I really believe we will see the ball spread around to a bunch of different receivers and the playbook opened up.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 07:17 PM ----------


Take ASF's talent for manipulating stats and apply it to Beck and he goes 12-15 for 200+ yards a TD pass and his TD run in the 4th quarter. If those drops were catches we potentially win instead of lose the game. :D

of course. We all know that after throwing the tying TD, beck would have run another QB draw on the two point conversion.

[Oldfan]

So...tomorrow's the big day. I have to say that I'm pretty excited to see what Beck can do for four quarters. I really believe we will see the ball spread around to a bunch of different receivers and the playbook opened up.My most dominant thought about John Beck is that, in the preseason, he made me realize how dynamic this offense can be when the stretch and the stretch boot are being run well. With Rex it was like watching a limited version of an excellent offense.

[tiger187126]

My most dominant thought about John Beck is that, in the preseason, he made me realize how dynamic this offense can be when the stretch and the stretch boot are being run well. With Rex it was like watching a limited version of an excellent offense.

is it just me or have we substantially cut back the boot action by the qb since the regular season started?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

My most dominant thought about John Beck is that, in the preseason, he made me realize how dynamic this offense can be when the stretch and the stretch boot are being run well. With Rex it was like watching a limited version of an excellent offense.

Assuming he gets the start, what are you expecting?

[Skinsinparadise]

Especially since the other moves they made have put the team in a position to be competitive right now, and our bottom of the league level of QB play could be the reason we don't reach our potential.

I like the moves they made, looks so far like a good draft, and free agent class, the team has gotten younger -- the win now mode to me was Shanny's first season, trade picks for a veteran, sign older players, etc. I always think heck if you can win while rebuilding all the better, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. As long as the Redskins don't get giddy from some success during the season and do something foolish like trade a first and 2nd rounder for Carson Palmer ala the Raiders -- I can live with talk about the future is now as long as they build they roster with the long view . But I am absolutely convinced they are building for the future so we'd be spinning our wheels if we keep debating that.

I am picking up in our debate, that although we want the same thing, Beck starting. I am cool with however it unfolds, your thoughts seemed to be wrapped some in being frustrated by Shanny. So you kind of remind me of myself when I was frustrated and didn't like Zorn as our HC, so I'd feel edgy about some of his moves, my frustration with Zorn would become entangled with how I saw stuff going on. Is that the case with you and Shanny or I am i over reading this? None of this is to be argumentative, I am just curious because as me and you have gone back and forth on this it hit me we want the same thing, we like the same QB, so what are we debating? Seems like we perhaps are debating your frustration with Shanny?


If you're into Matrix I feel like Morpheus: 'I dreamed a dream and know that dream has come for me' I was a huge fan of Mike Shanahan and his Denver WCO and success with QBs. I thought that was the offense we would get and I expected success/solid production from the QB position typical with QB 'gurus'. Instead we have an imbalanced offense with repeated failures at the QB position.

The Matrix to me is very Zen. If you go Matrix -- believe in the outcome and you'll get there, no guarantee its a smooth ride. :D I can see Shanny and Allen learning from their mistakes and fast and they seem methodical about building their roster. They moved from trading picks, to adding picks. they thought the roster might be enough to be competitive in season 1 to overhauling it. they saw the McNabb move was bad they moved on. Their free agent and draft class seems very good right now. If they were making bad move after bad move it would be one thing. But for ME I'll let two things ride before I give them a hard time. 1. See if Beck fails. 2. If Beck fails see if they skip drafting a QB in the next draft. If Shanny indeed liked Dalton and Bradford, his instincts for young Qbs might be decent. If Beck flops and its May and Shanny didn't draft a QB, then I'd join your frustration with him.


I heard Orkapo.(I've been listening to ESPN980 again). I was surprised to hear his view about Beck and I'm not sure if he realized what he was implying or maybe he did?
Not surprised to hear his view about the season. Coaches and players are almost always in win now mode. Like my old first sergeant used to say: Time now.

Agree. That IMO is why you really never hear coaches use the word rebuilding even if they are indeed doing so -- players don't like to hear the idea that they are going to be winners LATER. I guess i can't blame them if I were a player I'd want to play every game/season with the expectation i am going to win it all now, not in 2013. Still I think Orkapo is out of line if he feels that way fine but don't express it publicly I think its disrespectful, go tell the coach.

[Oldfan]

is it just me or have we substantially cut back the boot action by the qb since the regular season started?It's not just you.


Assuming he gets the start, what are you expecting?Ball control, dink and dunk, loosen them up with a deep throw now and then, but move the chains consistently; we keep Cam sitting on the sidelines. We win by14.

What do you see?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Ball control, dink and dunk, loosen them up with a deep throw now and then, but move the chains consistently; we keep Cam sitting on the sidelines. We win by14.

I'll take it!

Edit: just saw your question...I see an efficient and impressive game on offense. I can't predict a win because their offense concerns me.

[tiger187126]

It's not just you.

that's something i think hurts the run and pass game. anything you can do to lock up a defender, even for a split second is a win.

btw, my bold prediction for the game this weekend is (if beck starts) beck has more rushing yards than cam newton.

[Oldfan]

that's something i think hurts the run and pass game. anything you can do to lock up a defender, even for a split second is a win.That QB draw out of the spread Beck ran for the TD will cause defensive coordinators to keep a man in the middle of the field when they see that formation in the future. That opens the pass up a bit more. QBs with mobility make life more difficult for defenses, even thos who don't have Michael Vick's talent.


btw, my bold prediction for the game this weekend is (if beck starts) beck has more rushing yards than cam newton.That's more foolhardy than bold, Brother.:ols: I hope you're right.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

That QB draw out of the spread Beck ran for the TD will cause defensive coordinators to keep a man in the middle of the field when they see that formation in the future. That opens the pass up a bit more. QBs with mobility make life more difficult for defenses, even thos who don't have Michael Vick's talent.

That play was drawn up last week for Grossman, FYI. This is per Beck post-game.

You're right that Beck's mobility is a big plus (especially now with OL injuries), but I'm just setting the record straight on that QB draw. Apparently the coaches felt that even Grossman was capable of running 2 yards forward. :)

[Oldfan]

That play was drawn up last week for Grossman, FYI. This is per Beck post-game.

You're right that Beck's mobility is a big plus (especially now with OL injuries), but I'm just setting the record straight on that QB draw. Apparently the coaches felt that even Grossman was capable of running 2 yards forward. :)Interesting and surprising. I wouldn't have guessed that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

That play was drawn up last week for Grossman, FYI. This is per Beck post-game.

You're right that Beck's mobility is a big plus (especially now with OL injuries), but I'm just setting the record straight on that QB draw. Apparently the coaches felt that even Grossman was capable of running 2 yards forward. :)

Doesn't mean they were right about it...:ols:

[tiger187126]

That QB draw out of the spread Beck ran for the TD will cause defensive coordinators to keep a man in the middle of the field when they see that formation in the future. That opens the pass up a bit more. QBs with mobility make life more difficult for defenses, even thos who don't have Michael Vick's talent.

That's more foolhardy than bold, Brother.:ols: I hope you're right.

that's the beauty of a sneaky bold prediction. he's rushed for 210 over 6 games and a lot of his rushes come from goal to go situations, where there aren't a lot of yards to be had. we'll see,

[darrelgreenie]

I like the moves they made, looks so far like a good draft, and free agent class, the team has gotten younger -- the win now mode to me was Shanny's first season, trade picks for a veteran, sign older players, etc. I always think heck if you can win while rebuilding all the better, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't....But I am absolutely convinced they are building for the future so we'd be spinning our wheels if we keep debating that
I think we're in a situation where we can win while we build, the same as any good team.
But, the QB position could end up being our stumbling block because of the mistakes they've made.
e.g.(Shrewd QB moves+good coaching have allowed Chan Gailey/Bills and Harbaugh/49ers make quick turn arounds)

But, I think they've made some very smart moves, especially via FA.
The defense and specials are competitive.

Aside-
Imo whenever you have a HC as GM or executive, you have a schizophrenic leader.
HC by their nature are win now while GM's by their nature should be more long range.


I am picking up in our debate, that although we want the same thing, Beck starting.Kinda.
I want solid QB play first and foremost.
I would be happy with whomever they trot out there even Rex IF the actually produce.
Imo a FO/team should never enter the season with a QB situation that can't succeed.
And when they make their QB decisions and the QB fails then the decision makers and coaches have failed.
So, its not that I want Beck per se I want solid QB play:


---------- Post added May-8th-2011 at 12:38 PM ----------

Not only that they didn't address the QB position with any draft picks.

Imo our FO is not so incompetent to completely avoid addressing the QB position without having a plan.

A plan that they feel strongly about, a plan that has much greater chance of success then drafting a QB.

Which again imo points more to a win now mentality then a rebuild plan.

Whomever their chosen QB will be I have faith in Mike Shanahan that they'll be successful (top 10-15 this year).
*(I'm giving them a pass on McNabb due to personality conflict)
In fact that's the standard by which I'm rating/judging the success of our QB this year. (top 10-15)



I am cool with however it unfolds, your thoughts seemed to be wrapped some in being frustrated by Shanny. So you kind of remind me of myself when I was frustrated and didn't like Zorn as our HC, so I'd feel edgy about some of his moves, my frustration with Zorn would become entangled with how I saw stuff going on. Is that the case with you and Shanny or I am i over reading this?No quite the opposite.
You're talking to a guy that's always been in the tank for Mike Shanahan dating back to Denver.
I loved Mike's offenses, I love his gutsy playcalling.
This dude went for a 2 pt conversion to win the game.
His offenses are balanced almost exactly 50/50.
I loved Mike Shanahan.
But, this doesn't feel like the Shanahan I used to watch.
The Shanahan I knew would never second guess himself about Beck (if he did).



None of this is to be argumentative, I am just curious because as me and you have gone back and forth on this it hit me we want the same thing, we like the same QB, so what are we debating? Seems like we perhaps are debating your frustration with Shanny?Not at all.
I think we're kinda having a rambling discussion about the current QB situation, how the team arrived in this predicament and wether or not we're okay with it and why?


The Matrix to me is very Zen. If you go Matrix -- believe in the outcome and you'll get there, no guarantee its a smooth ride.touche, tis true but is Beck gonna be Neo or will RGIII?
But, on a serious note do you remember the scene with Morpheus, when Neo tells him the prophecy was a lie?


But for ME I'll let two things ride before I give them a hard time. 1. See if Beck fails. 2. If Beck fails see if they skip drafting a QB in the next draft.........If Beck flops and its May and Shanny didn't draft a QB, then I'd join your frustration with him.No matter what happens with Beck, I'll still be a little troubled.
If Beck flops.....idk...hopefully we won't have to address that subject.

[THEREALTOR1]

So...tomorrow's the big day. I have to say that I'm pretty excited to see what Beck can do for four quarters. I really believe we will see the ball spread around to a bunch of different receivers and the playbook opened up.

So does Shanny have to name the starting QB tomorrow or can he just say something along the lines of he's going to let both QB's run with the 1's for the rest of the week and then make a decision? I've seen/heard everyone saying he's going to make a decision on Wednesday, but if I recall correctly, he simply answered the question asked about that by inidicating that he'd talk more about it on Wednesday. Didn't know if there was a specific rule that mandated he name the starting QB on Wednesday before the game or if thats just what everybody is expecting based off of the comment Shanny made in his earlier presser.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You could be right, I just assumed that he would make the announcement on Wednesday.

[Chachie]

Personally I think it's too early to go with Beck. Brady had a 4 INT game this season and so did Vick. It happens. We couldn't run the ball either. I'm not absolving Grossman altogether. He's flawed. I'm just not losing my mind over the Eagles game and completely bailing on what was the sounder decision to begin with. I expect Coach Shanahan to announce Rex as the starter vs. Carolina instead of knee-jerking his way into his final option in week 7.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think we're in a situation where we can win while we build, the same as any good team.
But, the QB position could end up being our stumbling block because of the mistakes they've made.
e.g.(Shrewd QB moves+good coaching have allowed Chan Gailey/Bills and Harbaugh/49ers make quick turn arounds) .

Harbaugh inherited Alex Smith, granted he's playing better under him, and a talented defense. Gailey I believe acquired Fitzpatrick so I'll ride with that one but I want to see how their season plays out before I consider them a team that's arrived. But again even playing with that point, I am stuck on the idea of seeing what Beck has and if doesn't work I'll give them this draft too to work it out. Shanny doesn't strike me nor do I think you consider him a dummy. He said in an interview and predraft that building the d was a priority and that includes fixing the pass rush. Looks like he did it. If the Qb is the stumbling block he of course would be more acutely aware of it than us. And they seemed very diligent scoping out talent in the draft and free agency this year -- I can see them having a healthy obsession at fixing the Qb position via the draft if Beck isn't the answer, and my money is on him to figure it out.


Kinda. I want solid QB play first and foremost. I would be happy with whomever they trot out there even Rex IF the actually produce. Imo a FO/team should never enter the season with a QB situation that can't succeed. And when they make their QB decisions and the QB fails then the decision makers and coaches have failed. So, its not that I want Beck per se I want solid QB play:

Ditto me, I got nothing personal for Beck or personal against Rex. I want a good QB, I just don't think Rex has it, whereas Beck MIGHT. Only thing about Rex from a personal stand point is watching him I just don't think he gets it that he needs to improve -- he has said multiple times that the press just seems to hold him to different standards than other QBs as if its some sort of weird conspiracy by the media to question his play, his dad said the same to Chris Russell according to him. In his latest press conference he said the first INT was "no big deal" and blamed one on F. Davis, and the other on Gaffney. this stuff didn't bother me before, now its starting to grate on me some.


No quite the opposite. You're talking to a guy that's always been in the tank for Mike Shanahan dating back to Denver. I loved Mike's offenses, I love his gutsy playcalling. This dude went for a 2 pt conversion to win the game. His offenses are balanced almost exactly 50/50. I loved Mike Shanahan. But, this doesn't feel like the Shanahan I used to watch. The Shanahan I knew would never second guess himself about Beck (if he did).

You read his book. If you recall he talked about fixing Denver when he took over by working at different areas at a time. First year he started with improving the roster relating to defending the pass and improving the run. He didn't think he could do it all at once. Next year he tackled something else. I see a similar pattern here. He tended to bench players in Denver, had a fairly quick trigger. You can say well buddy you screwed up by starting the wrong guy in the first place. I get that but I don't agree. Shanny himself said its not always easy to see when you have in preseason, you need to see some players in the bright lights with pressure on them during the season to really judge. I just don't think its out of character for Shanny to think OK Rex looked good in preseason, give the dude a chance, and then reach the conclusion that he might not be the answer and try something else. I don't think that is out of step with who he was in Denver.



touche, tis true but is Beck gonna be Neo or will RGIII? But, on a serious note do you remember the scene with Morpheus, when Neo tells him the prophecy was a lie? No matter what happens with Beck, I'll still be a little troubled. If Beck flops.....idk...hopefully we won't have to address that subject.

I remember the scene but he became that guy anyway. If you want to stick to the Matrix, i can play it into the QB battle. If you got 2 Qb's that you aren't sure about, make them believe in themselves, you don't give them lukewarm endorsements. Tell them they are the goods, and if you are wrong, its fine to take the heat because you are just doing your job.

If you watch what Shanny has done with the rest of the roster. And consider his ego when it comes to offense, if both Beck and Rex flop -- based on what you know about Shanny's style -- isn't a given that he will do whatever the heck he needs to do to find the QB of the future in this coming draft?

[bonhommelemec]

Hi looked good in his limited time playing. That glimpse if far better than the long version of Rex.
The offense is designed perfectly for a player like Beck. He can thread it in there with a bullet, he can scramble pretty well, he'll air it from time to time, he's really good at the quick throw that Rodgers has perfected in GB, and he doesn't seem to have the propensity to turnover the ball like Rex.

I like Rex but he makes too many mistakes, Beck seems like the type that would manage the game better. He took us down the field well, mixing it up with a couple of runs.

I know that I am just reiterating what others have said but it can't be stressed enough, we need a change at the QB position.

Last thing, his game reminds me of Dan Marino. I am not saying that he compares to him, just that his game is based alot on the quick slants. Beck appears to have a fairly quick release.

I know that Beck may not be the saviour, but I am tired of the many mistakes that Rex has been making. Common sense seems to be to start Beck. I think he would have a fantastic game next week!

[THEREALTOR1]

You could be right, I just assumed that he would make the announcement on Wednesday.

Yeah, i'm with ya, I hope he actually makes a flat out statement as to who the starter is, but I get the feeling that just doesn't fit Shanny's style. I guess we'll all know soon enough one way or the other.

[Oldfan]

...If you watch what Shanny has done with the rest of the roster. And consider his ego when it comes to offense, if both Beck and Rex flop -- based on what you know about Shanny's style -- isn't a given that he will so whatever the heck he needs to do to find the QB of the future in this coming draft?No. It's not a given. Sorry about the tease, but I have a thread in mind explaining another option if both Rex and Beck fail.

[tiger187126]

No. It's not a given. Sorry about the tease, but I have a thread in mind explaining another option if both Rex and Beck fail.

brandon banks, wildcat qb.

[Oldfan]

Yeah, i'm with ya, I hope he actually makes a flat out statement as to who the starter is, but I get the feeling that just doesn't fit Shanny's style. I guess we'll all know soon enough one way or the other.I don't think the practice snaps will be split. The starter will be practicing tomorrow AM. I expect the choice to be leaked before the press conference.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 10:42 PM ----------


brandon banks, wildcat qb.Nah

[THEREALTOR1]

I don't think the practice snaps will be split. The starter will be practicing tomorrow AM. I expect the choice to be leaked before the press conference.[COLOR="Gold"]



I agree with you that the starter will more than likely be starting in practice tomorrow, but you know how Shanny likes to provide certain information sometimes. I could still see him saying that just because some reporter saw "QB A" running with the 1's at practice, he intends to allow "QB B" to "make an attempt to compete for the position by starting with the 1's on Thursday". Of course we all know that "attempt to compete" could consist of nothing more than a single pass. I've noticed Shanny has no problem telling the truth, he's just often very obtuse about it.

The other thought I had was that there's supposed to be quite a bit of rain moving into the area tomorrow. Could be some poor field conditions to contend with tomorrow. I wonder what the likelyhood of an "injury" occuring might be? Which of course could be used as an excuse as to why one particular QB may be getting the nod over another QB. Would be a nice easy way to save face for one QB while providing an opportunity for another QB to make a start (ie make an attempt to compete for the position). How convenient would that be :)

[Alrah]

I really think that this could go either way, Shanny has surprised us before, it wouldn't be shocking to me if he kept Rex in. If it were my choice, I'd choose Beck. I was rooting for Grossman, and some part of me wanted to believe that he could change the way he played, but it's just not going to happen. If we keep Rex under center we'll have a few good games with him (Giants) a few decent games he's able to come back and win it for us (Cardinals) and downright terrible ones (Eagles).

As it has been said numerous times before, Beck has a huge unknown factor to him that is intriguing, and I would like to see what he can do. I'm not expecting him to take us to a Superbowl, but we need a placeholder this year until we can draft a QB, and it should at least be someone who doesn't turn the ball over all the time. And who knows. Maybe Beck will play well. I thought the same thing about Grossman, but it didn't work out. Let's move on with Beckgruber.

[Skinsinparadise]

No. It's not a given. Sorry about the tease, but I have a thread in mind explaining another option if both Rex and Beck fail.

Yeah in my view, looks like Shanny is trying to build the defense and supporting cast and hopes that one of these Qbs work at the same time, and if they don't work out, this draft is supposed to a be a good one for QB's, they have their full slate of picks plus and extra one, so it feels to me like the draft where the Giants traded up to take Eli. Matt Flynn IMO is a young and intriguing QB prospect if the Packers let him be a free agent. I'd focus on QB and O line in the off season. Hopefully, Beck precludes that need though.

For those that say Shanny went full out for Rex and Beck. I don't see that. He did go full out for McNabb in terms of compensation. Both as for Beck and Rex, the compensation was nothing, they both are signed for contracts near the veteran minimum. To me it comes across as if Shanny thinks one of these guys if not both MIGHT have a chance to be the guy and if he can build the rest of the roster why not take a chance? Looks like door #1, Rex is a flop. Now hopefully we are about to check out door #2. I've not been excited about door #1 anyway, so i am not discouraged yet.

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 07:56 AM ----------


I agree with you that the starter will more than likely be starting in practice tomorrow, but you know how Shanny likes to provide certain information sometimes. I could still see him saying that just because some reporter saw "QB A" running with the 1's at practice,

Shanny flat out said he would tell the media today who the starter is. At this point, I am a little nervous that he has some excuse to stick with Rex -- something like well, we decided to give him an opportunity to work things out and if he doesn't we are confident in our backup. If he does start Beck, IMO it says a lot. Benching Rex at 3-2, after 4.5 game is IMO a quick trigger. He IMO deserves to be benched but IMO it indicates that either Shanny really didn't have that much faith in Rex and or indeed liked what he's seen from Beck in practice of late.

[darrelgreenie]

Harbaugh inherited Alex Smith, granted he's playing better under him, and a talented defense. Gailey I believe acquired Fitzpatrick so I'll ride with that one but I want to see how their season plays out before I consider them a team that's arrived.My point with mentioning them is that they made their QB decisions work and that helped them turn around their teams.
I don't know what 'arrived' means.


But again even playing with that point, I am stuck on the idea of seeing what Beck has and if doesn't work I'll give them this draft too to work it out.Naturally we all want to see what Beck does, but should Beck fail I'm gonna have misgivings about them making the QB decision for the 3rd year in a row.


If the Qb is the stumbling block he of course would be more acutely aware of it than us.But, lets be clear thus far in his tenure the QB position has been a stumbling block.


And they seemed very diligent scoping out talent in the draft and free agency this year -- I can see them having a healthy obsession at fixing the Qb position via the draft if Beck isn't the answer, and my money is on him to figure it out.I agree somewhat except I think the above realization should have occured this offseason.






Shanny himself said its not always easy to see when you have in preseason, you need to see some players in the bright lights with pressure on them during the season to really judge.This is actually a reason to start the season with Beck not Rex.


I just don't think its out of character for Shanny to think OK Rex looked good in preseason, give the dude a chance, and then reach the conclusion that he might not be the answer and try something else.I think its out of character for Mike Shanahan to make the mistake of going with Rex over Beck to start the season.
The QB position is not like a RB or any other position.



If you watch what Shanny has done with the rest of the roster. And consider his ego when it comes to offense, if both Beck and Rex flop -- based on what you know about Shanny's style -- isn't a given that he will do whatever the heck he needs to do to find the QB of the future in this coming draft? if both Beck and Rex flop--I'll have misgivings about letting him select another QB.
-Re:Mike's style This offense isn't Mike's style and Mike's style has been for his QB to have success.

[Skinsinparadise]

Naturally we all want to see what Beck does, but should Beck fail I'm gonna have misgivings about them making the QB decision for the 3rd year in a row...This is actually a reason to start the season with Beck not Rex...I think its out of character for Mike Shanahan to make the mistake of going with Rex over Beck to start the season... if both Beck and Rex flop--I'll have misgivings about letting him select another QB...-Re:Mike's style This offense isn't Mike's style and Mike's style has been for his QB to have success.

Correct me if I am wrong, you seem concerned now about Beck because he wasn't the initial choice and if he does look good you seem to have issues that they didn't arrive at the decision in the first place, and if both Qb's don't work you don't trust him to find the right guy in the draft. Thus Shanny's credibility loses out but just to different degrees no matter how this turns out? Then you got issues with Kyle. That's what i mean is your comments on this issue come across to me is wrapped some in how you feel about the CURRENT version of Shanny.

I am still in the tank for Shanny. But really my opinion about Shanny at the moment is not wrapped into what's going on. I just don't care about who he picked first. I can see a scenario where neither QB works and I still think he will fix it. If you weren't bringing up the subject, none of this stuff would even cross my mind. I just don't care about the process and likewise I don't care about instant results. I'll give him a shot with Beck and if he doesn't work I'll give him this off season. I am not saying you should see things the same way, but its on that point we'd be going on in circles.

On another note, did you hear Rex's comments today, he said he is disappointed because he's played good this year in every game aside from the last. He said yeah QB stats might indicate good QB play but he doesn't care about them, its all about winning and losing. And one more time he talks about how the QB isn't solely responsible for interceptions. I used to be cool with his personality, now I agree with Thom Loverro in that he's starting to get on my nerves.

[SWO-tarious]

Correct me if I am wrong, you seem concerned now about Beck because he wasn't the initial choice and if he does look good you seem to have issues that they didn't arrive at the decision in the first place, and if both Qb's don't work you don't trust him to find the right guy in the draft. Thus Shanny's credibility loses out but just to different degrees no matter how this turns out? Then you got issues with Kyle. That's what i mean is your comments on this issue come across to me is wrapped some in how you feel about the CURRENT version of Shanny.

I am still in the tank for Shanny. But really my opinion about Shanny at the moment is not wrapped into what's going on. I just don't care about who he picked first. I can see a scenario where neither QB works and I still think he will fix it. If you weren't bringing up the subject, none of this stuff would even cross my mind. I just don't care about the process and likewise I don't care about instant results. I'll give him a shot with Beck and if he doesn't work I'll give him this off season. I am not saying you should see things the same way, but its on that point we'd be going on in circles.

On another note, did you hear Rex's comments today, he said he is disappointed because he's played good this year in every game aside from the last. He said yeah QB stats might indicate good QB play but he doesn't care about them, its all about winning and losing. And one more time he talks about how the QB isn't solely responsible for interceptions. I used to be cool with his personality, now I agree with Thom Loverro in that he's starting to get on my nerves.

The sense that I am getting now is that Shanny wanted to start Beck to bigin with, but due to the groin injury in training camp he didn't take as many reps and as a result Rex won the job. I think he wanted Beck in there all along. Either way, there's no turning back now.

[TheGreek1973]

The sense that I am getting now is that Shanny wanted to start Beck to bigin with, but due to the groin injury in training camp he didn't take as many reps and as a result Rex won the job. I think he wanted Beck in there all along. Either way, there's no turning back now.

I think you may have something there. I mean after the draft he did say he is comfortable with the QBs and Beck as for now is the started correct? I think with the lockout and then the injury he probably felt Rex was more ready. Add the fact that Rex played a great game against the Giants kind of solidified this in his mind. But Rex regressed so much since that game that for Mike S this was IMO an easy choice.

[Skinsinparadise]

The sense that I am getting now is that Shanny wanted to start Beck to bigin with, but due to the groin injury in training camp he didn't take as many reps and as a result Rex won the job. I think he wanted Beck in there all along. Either way, there's no turning back now.

Yeah for me as I said on this thread, if Shanny benches Rex to me it says a lot. If he's benching Rex with a winning record after 4.5 games which isn't much (though am glad he is doing so) its likely that either he wasn't totally sold on Rex as the right choice and or he wanted to see some improvements in Beck. It struck me that Shanny said that Beck has looked good in the last TWO weeks in practice. he didn't say he's been looking good in practice in general but focused on the last two weeks. I take that as Shanny possibly waiting for Beck to fix something and now he's seeing it.

[skinsfan51]

This is the right time for a QB change considering Grossman's play. Shanny knows that a good evaluation needs to be made of Beck in the regular season to see if he's the starter going forward, or if the 'Skins need to focus on a top QB in the upcoming draft. He made the same evaluation last year when he benched McNabb for Grossman, and determined that Grossman was good enough to be the 'Skins QB for 2011. Especially after winning the QB battle with Beck in the preaseason. Because of this, and because Grossman bombed, I don't see a change back to Rex unless Beck is just unbearably bad. The season is Beck's to prove himself.

Shanny's reputation is on the line. He knows he needs to have a top signal-caller in D.C. by next year if he is to keep his reuptation and job. I John Beck proves to be that person, so we can start winning on a regular basis for a change.

[MattFancy]

I don't think he gives you a GOOD shot. He gives you more of a shot.

Realistically, if you stay with Grossman, you are staying with a guy that isn't a good NFL QB. You may as well see if Beck is any better at this point in time.

Well said. We all know what Grossman is capable of, its not terrible, but its nothing special. Why not give Beck a chance now and see what he can do?

[illone]

Not sure if he gives the Skins a good shot at winning the division, but I think he is hungry for the opportunity and he can't be much worse than what we saw with Rexy.

Will be interesting to see how well he plays on Sunday, that's for sure.

[BucketHTTR]

To early to tell.. Just need to find out what he can bring to the table. We will know Sunday

[SWO-tarious]

The absolute worst thing that the Shanahan's can do is to formulate a game plan where we go to Charlotte and throw the ball all over the yard. I truly hope that they stick with a ball-control, run-first, pass second style of offense to let Beck get into the rhythm of the game. 3-step drops, draws, and then some play-action passes. Nothing crazy, just keep moving the chains and let the D rest up and unleash fury once they're on the field.

With that said, I am optimistic about Sunday. Instead of being scared everytime we drop back to pass, I'll be a little more excited about what the guys can do. :fingersx:

[paloosa]

Beck is the flavor of the month right now because Grossman has made too many mistakes to ignore that he isn't the answer. But neither is Beck because no one knows what Beck can really do because of the lack of starts under his belt. So what happens if Beck blows up in the next couple of games and plays just as bad as Grossman? Do we go back to Grossman or just keep playing Beck because he is the flavor of the month?

[redskinette]

@DanSnyderCares pays farewell to Rex: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6XxdOH9HM

[Skinsinparadise]

Beck is the flavor of the month right now because Grossman has made too many mistakes to ignore that he isn't the answer. But neither is Beck because no one knows what Beck can really do because of the lack of starts under his belt.

Isn't it a contradiction to say no one knows what Beck can do and he's not the answer all at the same time?

[Oldfan]

In 2008, Shanahan's Denver Broncos allowed only 11 sacks for the year. Rookie LT Ryan Clady was charged with only 1.5 sacks. It wasn't that Clady and the O-line were so great. It was Shanahan's use of the mobile Jay Cutler in his protection schemes that made the line look better than it really was. Without Shanahan and Cutler, Clady had 8.5 sacks charged against him in 2009.

Beck lacks the arm but has Cutler's mobility, so I look for fewer sacks despite the fact that we lost Trent and Kory.

The 2008 Broncos had Eddie Royal and Brandon Marshall. This is what Beck needs most now -- a couple of top notch receivers to help him. Armstrong, healthy, can do an Eddie Royal imitation, but as Mahons said earlier in this thread, we need that big receiver to make this offense fly. Can Hankerson be the guy? Hard to say.

[Skinsinparadise]

The 2008 Broncos had Eddie Royal and Brandon Marshall. This is what Beck needs most now -- a couple of top notch receivers to help him. Armstrong, healthy, can do an Eddie Royal imitation, but as Mahons said earlier in this thread, we need that big receiver to make this offense fly. Can Hankerson be the guy? Hard to say.

It might be Niles Paul. Shanny has raved about him and he's apparently on the field more and more for now in sets as a blocker but he intimated recently that the ball will start being thrown his way. Also Beck I presume has a rapport with him and Austin, maybe even Hankerson considering they are likely running plays together on the scout team. If you recall Beck had a nice connection with Austin last Sunday.

[Oldfan]

It might be Niles Paul. Shanny has raved about him and he's apparently on the field more and more for now in sets as a blocker but he intimated recently that the ball will start being thrown his way. Also Beck I presume has a rapport with him and Austin, maybe even Hankerson considering they are likely running plays together on the scout team. If you recall Beck had a nice connection with Austin last Sunday.Austin and Paul look like useful players, but I was thinking of the big receiver, like Marshall, who will go up and come down with receptions that are just lobbed in his vicinity.

[Skinsinparadise]

Austin and Paul look like useful players, but I was thinking of the big receiver, like Marshall, who will go up and come down with receptions that are just lobbed in his vicinity.

Paul if I recall is 6 foot 1. He's also a very physical player its largely why he's in there to block. Hankerson I think is 6 foot 2? Austin, i agree doesn't fit that mold.

[Oldfan]

Paul if I recall is 6 foot 1. He's also a very physical player its largely why he's in there to block. Hankerson I think is 6 foot 2? Austin, i agree doesn't fit that mold.
Hankerson looks better on paper. Here are scouting reports on each.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2555
http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2534

[Prototype]

I don't know if you guys heard, but Hankerson likes Andre Johnson.

[Oldfan]

I don't know if you guys heard, but Hankerson likes Andre Johnson.You mean like he REALLY likes him?

[Prototype]

You mean like he REALLY likes him?

Hahaha, I was just referring to the 3-4 interviews of him being asked who he molds his game after, and he keeps saying in that funny voice he has with a slight lisp, "Um, I like Andre Johnson.":ols:

[Oldfan]

Hahaha, I was just referring to the 3-4 interviews of him being asked who he molds his game after, and he keeps saying in that funny voice he has with a slight lisp, "Um, I like Andre Johnson.":ols:Oh, okay. I thought maybe you had some choice gossip to offer us.:laugh:

[B&GVol24]

Just some food for thought:

Since Beck has been practicing with the 2nd team since preseason, do you think it's likely we'll see more of Paul and Austin against Carolina, due to the timing and chemistry they've probably developed with Beck in practice? (speculating here, of course)

Hopefully Beck's pass to Austin is an indication of what's to come :fingersx:

[darrelgreenie]

Correct me if I am wrong, you seem concerned now about Beck because he wasn't the initial choiceNot concerned about Beck, concerned about their decision making.


and if he does look good you seem to have issues that they didn't arrive at the decision in the first place, and if both Qb's don't work you don't trust him to find the right guy in the draft. Kinda, I said I would have misgivings.
I think there's quite a bit of distance between apprenhension and 'not trusting'.
If I don't trust someone to do something I would let them at all, whereas I might trust someone even though I have misgivings about them.
But, there would be no more messing about via trade or FA.
He would have lost the right to acquire a QB via trade/FA in my eyes.


Thus Shanny's credibility loses out but just to different degrees no matter how this turns out? Then you got issues with Kyle. That's what i mean is your comments on this issue come across to me is wrapped some in how you feel about the CURRENT version of Shanny.Yes, for me the glow has faded somewhat.
If Beck is playing at a high level at the end of the year, most of the credibility is intact.
Quoting my old first sergeant again, in my eyes Beck being successful is a "no fail" mission in terms of Mike Shanahan credibility.

I certainly have issues with Kyle, I make no bones about that, but that is a different story in a different thread.
http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?351168-Kyle-Shanahan-s-comments-on-the-2010-offense


I am still in the tank for Shanny. But really my opinion about Shanny at the moment is not wrapped into what's going on......but its on that point we'd be going on in circles.
I think I've discovered the crux of its our disagreement (although amicable). My opinion of Shanny is based in the present because we have a chance to be competitive this year if the QB play is decent/good.
I give him/Allen lots of credit for how the built the defense hopefully their QB decision pans out and doesn't prevent us from being the best team we can be this year.

But, and this is where I think we disagree, imo its never okay for an NFL team to pass on the QB position during the offseason unless they're comfortable that their QBs give them a chance to win if not for the present at least for the future.

And if they are comfortable and the QB position does indeed prevent the team from being competitive then they made a grave error.
I believe that a team that has enough pieces in place just needs to get hot at the right time to make it into the playoffs.
And once your in the playoffs as Kevin Garnett said "Anything is pooossssiiibbblllleee!" @ :23s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyjOy7fRzs0

But, only with adequate QB play.
Imo if lack of adequate QB play from a non-rookie/developmental QB is the main factor holding a team back and that team had the option to fix or upgrade that position and didn't do it, they've essentially wasted a season.

(Independent of our opinions of Beck)
I think we also disagree about wether we could 'have our cake and eat it too'.
I feel like you believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that finding an adequate QB would preclude us from having our current team.
I think we could have the exact same pieces we have now and have a better solution at QB then Rex Grossman.
If you look at Jenkins and Hankerson; without making a value judgement its fair to say that they are not the reason for the quality of the current team and therefore if those picks turned into a QB then this team would be in exact same place we are now except with better QB play and a hope for a bright future.


On another note, did you hear Rex's comments today...Rex is Rex.
Being mad about anything Rex does reminds of the story about the ant who gave a crippled scorpion a piggyback ride across the road.

[Oldfan]

Just some food for thought:

Since Beck has been practicing with the 2nd team since preseason, do you think it's likely we'll see more of Paul and Austin against Carolina, due to the timing and chemistry they've probably developed with Beck in practice? (speculating here, of course)

Hopefully Beck's pass to Austin is an indication of what's to come :fingersx:As the season progresses, I expected to see more of Paul, Armstrong and Austin and less of the older Stallworth, Gaffney and Moss. Beck replacing Rex could accelerate that process some, sure.

[ciresolstice]

I think Beck is smart and a student of the game. He is hungry, he wants it badly, I like his confidence, not cocky but confident. ....I think he's a little deficient in skill/talent. It was somewhat of a toss up and Grossman got the nod out of pre-season. I don't think Beck will be worse...just don't think he'll be a whole lot better either. I hope he surprises. Hail!

[Oldfan]

I think Beck is smart and a student of the game. He is hungry, he wants it badly, I like his confidence, not cocky but confident. ....I think he's a little deficient in skill/talent. It was somewhat of a toss up and Grossman got the nod out of pre-season. I don't think Beck will be worse...just don't think he'll be a whole lot better either. I hope he surprises. Hail!After seeing his preseason performance, did you expect Rex to play that badly? Don't you think that Beck shouldn't have much trouble clearing such a low bar?

[Skinsinparadise]

Not concerned about Beck, concerned about their decision making.

Yeah I don't have a crisis in confidence in their decision making.


If Beck is playing at a high level at the end of the year, most of the credibility is intact.

That's cool, so why not let the movie play out before getting worked up about it?


But, and this is where I think we disagree, imo its never okay for an NFL team to pass on the QB position during the offseason unless they're comfortable that their QBs give them a chance to win if not for the present at least for the future.

As somewhat of a draft geek who likes paying attention to every round. For years, i watch other teams have full drafts, add picks -- and I am jealous watching it all. With the Skins coming in with less than a full draft, trading down and ending up with more picks than any team in the draft, that had to be my favorite draft day of all time. They seemed to have a good draft too. they seem to do well with free agents. They've done everything exactly as I'd like to see being done -- and yeah in my view unless you are in love with a player don't trade up and give up picks. And don't reach for a player regardless of position unless you love the guy, like we did for example when we took Chad Rinehart in the third round. So I can live and be happy with how they did this. and if Beck doesn't pan out, i am convinced they will be all over this coming draft to address the QB position.


I believe that a team that has enough pieces in place just needs to get hot at the right time to make it into the playoffs. And once your in the playoffs as Kevin Garnett said "Anything is pooossssiiibbblllleee!"
But, only with adequate QB play.

If I thought the same way, I might share your frustration, but not a whit of me thinks this team can make it to the superbowl. But yeah if i did, i'd be more frustrated about the Qb situation.


I think we also disagree about wether we could 'have our cake and eat it too'.
I feel like you believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that finding an adequate QB would preclude us from having our current team.

I watched the draft like a hawk as i know you did, and my take is aside from Gabbert (who I didn't have a strong opinion about one way or another) the draft didn't fall in a way where you could fill many holes in the roster and draft your QB of the future unless Mallet and Stanzi turn out to be studs. In my view and many others Locker and Ponder went earlier than expected, Shanny said as much about Ponder. Maybe they could have traded up for Dalton but I got no clue what teams were asking for -- it would be one thing if i didn't like what they did with their picks, but i liked their moves. If Dalton was there with their 2nd rounder and they passed over him, then I'd share your frustration.


Being mad about anything Rex does reminds of the story about the ant who gave a crippled scorpion a piggyback ride across the road.

I am not mad at him, he just seems whiny and delusional. Beck took losing the job in the preseason IMO much better than Rex does right now. Beck at the time talked about working harder and fixing things. Rex not at all -- he's casting blame and to a degree playing the victim.

---------- Post added October-19th-2011 at 08:43 PM ----------


Hankerson looks better on paper. Here are scouting reports on each.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2555
http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=2534

I know all about Hankerson being hyped more before the draft, heck some had him projected as a late first rounder. And Hankerson could turn out to be the better player. But as of right NOW, reporters covering the team in camp like Keim and Russell talk about Paul as the guy running crisper routs and looking better at the moment. A couple of things I read after the draft quoted a scout saying that Paul was their steal of the draft and might turn out to be their best player from it. Now, I've heard ditto about Hankerson but after camp, seemed like the buzz was Paul outplayed Hankerson. Shanny in one of his recent coach shows, hyped up Paul and said they will start throwing balls his way. He didn't say the same about Hankerson. Long term, Hankerson might be the better player but right now it seems like Paul is developing faster.

[darrelgreenie]

Yeah I don't have a crisis in confidence in their decision making.My neither.
Crisis is far more drastic then what I'm feeling or have said.


That's cool, so why not let the movie play out before getting worked up about it?
I'm not worked up at all, I'm just having a discussion based on the questions you've asked me.
But you're right we can't do anything else but let it play out but I always look ahead its my nature.


-- and yeah in my view unless you are in love with a player don't trade up and give up picks.Of course not, but you're the one that said that they liked Dalton.
The cost to trade up to get Dalton wouldn't have been much more then Jenkins + Gomes.


and if Beck doesn't pan out, i am convinced they will be all over this coming draft to address the QB position.If Beck doesn't pan out, you already know how I feel about.
Hopefully, Beck will pan out.

BTW-I'm gonna try to find a Malcolm Kelly jersey.


If I thought the same way, I might share your frustration, but not a whit of me thinks this team can make it to the superbowl. But yeah if i did, i'd be more frustrated about the Qb situation.Superbowl? Who knows? But, clearly that's not what I'm saying.
Playoffs (which was the OP)? I think its a realistic possibility w/ good QB play.
Our defense is good.
Rex threw 4 INTs and we were still in the game.
Our defense locked the Eagles down in the second half, that's no small feat.


I watched the draft like a hawk as i know you did, and my take is aside from Gabbert (who I didn't have a strong opinion about one way or another) the draft didn't fall in a way where you could fill many holes in the roster and draft your QB of the future...
If Dalton was there with their 2nd rounder and they passed over him, then I'd share your frustration.I know that's how you feel but like I was saying early you, yourself, said that they liked Dalton and I don't see why Dalton couldn't be wearing Burgundy and Gold for the cost of Jenkins+Gomes or on the more expensive side (although I doubt it would've been) Jenkins+Hankerson.
We still effectively have the same contributing members of the current team.


In my view and many others Locker and Ponder went earlier than expected, Shanny said as much about Ponder.Neither here nor there but Locker's being drafted higher then media expectation isn't a sign that he was over drafted, but rather a sign that the media perception of his evaluation wasn't on target.
Also neither here nor there I wonder what would have happened if Locker was available at 10?


I know all about Hankerson being hyped more before the draft, heck some had him projected as a late first rounder. And Hankerson could turn out to be the better player. But as of right NOW, reporters covering the team in camp like Keim and Russell talk about Paul as the guy running crisper routs and looking better at the moment. A couple of things I read after the draft quoted a scout saying that Paul was their steal of the draft and might turn out to be their best player from it. Now, I've heard ditto about Hankerson but after camp, seemed like the buzz was Paul outplayed Hankerson. Shanny in one of his recent coach shows, hyped up Paul and said they will start throwing balls his way*. He didn't say the same about Hankerson. Long term, Hankerson might be the better player but right now it seems like Paul is developing faster.I think Paul has the upper hand for 2 key reasons: blocking and consistency.
Paul is a physical player and a great blocker for a WR.
Hankerson imo is a more fluid player that can make the tough catch.
But, based on his drops I get the feeling his concentration lapses which may cause some of the routine passes he dropped in preseason.

I find the bolded portion telling because I was thinking the same thing.
I noticed that Paul is in on a lot of the run plays yet they never throw to him:

....The first play is our normal outside zone stretch run; probably thee staple play of our offense.
This one is from I-Form w/ Cooley at FB/HB Niles Paul*, our best blocking WR, motions to block (cut) the backside pursuit.
*(They might want to call some pass plays for Paul because sooner or later teams are gonna start to key on Paul in the game at WR=run play)

Helu shows the skills to be a good back in this system feel, vision, decisiveness(confidence) and cutback ability.
Hopefully runs like this build confidence in Kyle that we can run against a strong run front.

The Rams built an 8 man box on this play, and because of the tight split by Moss and the motion by Paul 9 defenders end up within 4 yards of the LOS:
http://a2.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/129/6b6af5dd935f491ab080a4a2211ad91f/l.jpg

[Voice_of_Reason]

In this offense, the way that MIKE Shanahan wants to run it, you can win games if your QB throws for 180-220, you run the ball for ~100-140, you control the clock and don't turn the ball over.

That's probably good for ~20-24 points per game, which would be good enough for ~9 wins.

With the defense playing pretty well, that'll do for this year until they can find a more long term solution in the off season.

Grossman couldn't do that consistently. Because he's apt to turn the ball over 2-3 times a game on fumbles and INTs. And while the D is much improved, it just isn't going to generate 2-3 turnover per game consistently.

I'm good with attempting to see if Beck can do what Grossman couldn't. Run the offense. You don't have to have a wiz-bang arm to run this offense. Heck, Jake Plummer and whatshisnugget in Houston, who will never be confused with John Elway, both have run it effectively

[KokoMike]

The over/under for Beck, if we lose, is two. The over/under for Beck, if we win, is three.

If Beck is too conservative, like a Jason Campbell, we lose. If Beck makes mistakes, but also big plays, we win.

We'll see if he has the guts to win.

P.S. Carolina is 1-5 and is a 2.5 point favorite. They have only been a favorite one time this year and they won 16-10 against the Jags.

Jags QB Gabbert was 12-21 for 129 yards, 1 TD, 1 Int. Tackled in end zone for a safety. Returned a fumble for 6 yards. If Beck has these types of stats, look for the same result. btw: Jones-Drew ran 24 times for 122 yards, with 3 catches for 45 yards in that loss, too.

[Newera]

It just makes sense to start Beck now to me. The switch was inevitable. It was going to come at some point. Might as well be now. When you really think about it, Rex is not as much apart of the future -- and particularly if he's not playing well and turning the ball over. He's totally keeping the seat warm for the incumbent. Plus, he's not signed through next year and turned down a multi-year offer. Whereas, the Shanahan's have more invested in Beck. They traded for him. He's signed through next year, and really he has more upside then Rex. Since this really is a rebuilding year, we need to see what we have in John. His development will do a lot to answer the direction the franchise will go in the draft. I'm certain they're going to draft a franchise quarterback next year, but might have the added advantage of not being forced to play him immediately if Beck excels at the position with more playing time. He plays faster. Better mobility. Stronger arm. I think he's going to be very adept at the short game. The key will be his ability to stretch the field.

I remember watching Aaron Rodgers when he first started playing, (when he replaced an injured Farve in Dallas), what I noticed most about Rodgers was ability to effectively grasp the short game. Four years later, he's a monster and the best quarterback in the game. I think if there is anything Beck learned working out with Rodgers and Brees in San Diego, was "Play faster."

You could tell the Eagles were having a difficult time adjusting to his tempo. He had them off balance. All while still being rusty.

[Oldfan]

...I know all about Hankerson being hyped more before the draft, heck some had him projected as a late first rounder. And Hankerson could turn out to be the better player. But as of right NOW, reporters covering the team in camp like Keim and Russell talk about Paul as the guy running crisper routs and looking better at the moment. A couple of things I read after the draft quoted a scout saying that Paul was their steal of the draft and might turn out to be their best player from it. Now, I've heard ditto about Hankerson but after camp, seemed like the buzz was Paul outplayed Hankerson. Shanny in one of his recent coach shows, hyped up Paul and said they will start throwing balls his way. He didn't say the same about Hankerson. Long term, Hankerson might be the better player but right now it seems like Paul is developing faster.
I agree with all of that, but we were talking about a WR with the potential to get deep, go up and bring in passes that were lobbed into his vicinity. Hank sounds like he has that potential. Niles Paul sounds like he might make a good possession receiver.

[SirClintonPortis]

It just makes sense to start Beck now to me. The switch was inevitable. It was going to come at some point. Might as well be now. When you really think about it, Rex is not as much apart of the future -- and particularly if he's not playing well and turning the ball over. He's totally keeping the seat warm for the incumbent. Plus, he's not signed through next year and turned down a multi-year offer. Whereas, the Shanahan's have more invested in Beck. They traded for him. He's signed through next year, and really he has more upside then Rex. Since this really is a rebuilding year, we need to see what we have in John. His development will do a lot to answer the direction the franchise will go in the draft. I'm certain they're going to draft a franchise quarterback next year, but might have the added advantage of not being forced to play him immediately if Beck excels at the position with more playing time. He plays faster. Better mobility. Stronger arm. I think he's going to be very adept at the short game. The key will be his ability to stretch the field.


It was a trade, but the piece we tossed to the Ravens was Doug Dutch, a perennial training camp body. We even got him back on the PS later in the season before letting him go when his contract expired, I think. Beck essentially came for free.

[Newera]

It was a trade, but the piece we tossed to the Ravens was Doug Dutch, a perennial training camp body. We even got him back on the PS later in the season before letting him go when his contract expired, I think. Beck essentially came for free.

I guess we will see how shrewd a move it was.

[Dirt]

Not concerned about Beck, concerned about their decision making.


Hm. Then you're saying Shanny should have just insisted Donovan was too old/inaccurate and said no, and insisted Rex was still a interception machine and said no. Which makes sense, I would like to think our coach would make bolder decisions and not be so trusting.

However, Shanny's trust is easily obtained in this situation. "Here Mike, here's a team. Blow it up. Start it over, keep whatever you want but throw everything else away and build a team".

So before the season even began, obtaining Donovan was trusting him. I'm sure they had talks. I'm sure Donovan said things like "Yes, I will work with you and Kyle to get this system down and pull out all the stops". Then he wouldn't wear a wristband and **** like that. So he basically screwed over Shanny. Maybe no matter what he did, he wasn't going to work, but nonetheless, that first QB decision with Donovan should be given a pass IMO. It was worth a shot, and Donovan provided almost the worst possible outcome, and this year he's shown it was no accident.

I'm sure Rex and Shanny had talks. I'm sure Rex said things like "Yes I will work with you and Kyle to make sure we have this system down and I will work heavily on protecting the ball." Then he throws a bunch of really bad interceptions over and over and ****. So he basically screwed over Shanny. Again, Maybe Rex just isn't capable to protecting the ball consistently, but that decision by Shanny was basically by default(as Beck is) because he didn't want any of the QBs in the draft or FA(thank god). Perhaps he was looking ahead to this years QB class.

Shanny's made these decisions based, ironically, on the thing you have a problem with: We MAY have a chance to compete this year. Donovan was supposed to be in his second year right now. That was a gamble, and maybe i dont' want our coach gambling, but it was really the only decision QB wise that I could really have a problem with.

This Beck thing is a formality, and I don't think it's fair to use it as a way to 'stack up' QB changes and then say Shanny's making poor QB decisions.

And of course..who else is out there, and who could he have picked to make it a GOOD decision? Meh. The decisions I take from Shanny are the way he handled Albert, which was awesome (seriously), the way he handled Mcnabb (wasn't really that messy, no one cared), and the great draft. He knew he was screwed at QB this year, give em a break eh. he's not crazy, he's getting a QB in the draft next year. Clearly that is the plan. And a good one IMO

[Shanny&Danny]

At this stage it would be dumb not to start Beck, we have to find out what he's got. You never know he might surprise everyone, have to remember that at one point everyone thought that Rich Gannon,Steve Young and Kurt Warner weren't starter quality.

[darrelgreenie]

He knew he was screwed at QB this year, give em a break eh. he's not crazy, he's getting a QB in the draft next year. Clearly that is the plan. And a good one IMOThat's where we disagree I don't think he thought we were 'screwed' at QB I believe that he thought that Rex/Beck could do the job.
Rex has failed we're about to see about Beck.
And if he thought we were 'screwed' at QB then imo he should have made moves to fix the problem via draft, trade or FA.

[BucketHTTR]

I don't think Shanny thought he was screwed at the QB position this year. He obviously has a lot of confidence in Beck. He traded for him and gave him a contract already. If Beck wouldn't of had a hamstring injury allowing Grossman to play so well, then Beck would of been the starter week 1. Now we are going to see the image of the football team Shanny wants. I think the offense was played to favor Grossman with quick releases and 3 step drops and less bootlegs. I think with Beck, that we will now see the bootleg again and the traditional style ofa Shanny offense we all understand

[Dirt]

That's where we disagree I don't think he thought we were 'screwed' at QB I believe that he thought that Rex/Beck could do the job.
Rex has failed we're about to see about Beck.
And if he thought we were 'screwed' at QB then imo he should have made moves to fix the problem via draft, trade or FA.

I mean post-draft, FA signing, he knew he was 'screwed', and I use the term loosely. He didn't like any QB in the draft, and let's not forget that resulted in a great draft filling other positions. After that, I would have liked a guy like Hasselbeck I guess, and I was even thinking Vince Young would be ok.

So yea, that does mean Shanny thought Rex/Beck could do the job. By 'do the job' that means no one expects elite play, but enough to win. It's risky having Rex as one of your two options, but it's easy for us to say we knew he was going to throw the picks as usual. I'm sure Shanny was aware of this, but considering the circumstances, he pretty much had to give Rex the benefit of the doubt, and give him a chance to show he can adapt. You'll notice, it didn't take him long to lose his chance. All those posts saying Rex's leash is wayy longer than Donovan's...not so much.

When I say he's 'screwed', I mean he willingly put himself in the situation, knowing he's got 2 guys, at least one of which can be on the team next year with the rookie. So for this year, Shanny's making the right decisions at QB. It was fair to give Rex a shot, and you should be glad Shan was so quick to take it away.

[Skinsinparadise]

I agree with all of that, but we were talking about a WR with the potential to get deep, go up and bring in passes that were lobbed into his vicinity. Hank sounds like he has that potential. Niles Paul sounds like he might make a good possession receiver.

OK, yeah agree that Paul is more of a possession type.

[Redskins4ever]

Grossman did perform slightly better than Beck in the preseason, which is why he won the starting job. Everyone who knows football knew that Grossman, sooner or later, would play disastrously and be replaced by Beck. Because of Grossman's strong preseason play, and the excellent way that he played the first two weeks of the season, and was very optimistic that he was finally turning a positive corner in his career. But he had me fooled. Or maybe I was naive that Grossman, whose critics have slapped him around in the media has criticized him and made him the NFL comic relief punching bag, would be silenced at last because of Grossman's play.

John Beck maybe capable of managing the offense to between 24- 38 points a game just because of his mobility alone. I'm not expecting that as a fan Beck will not male errors. He'll be hit, and he may fumble and he was also throw picks. Maybe a few will be returned for TDs. But he won't be nearly as turnover prone as Grossman was and is.

[Skinsinparadise]

My neither. Crisis is far more drastic then what I'm feeling or have said.

OK I was just noticing that in some of these Beck and Rex debates you were wrapped into the process of how it was going down and centered on Shanny and not per se in a complementary way.

That's OK of course. At this point, I just don't care how the sausage is being made whether its ugly or seamless, I just want to eat it and hope its good.


Of course not, but you're the one that said that they liked Dalton.
The cost to trade up to get Dalton wouldn't have been much more then Jenkins + Gomes.

The last time they traded up in the 2nd round, they gave up the following years 2nd rounder. You got me what the price was this time assuming there was a willing trade partner. But in the draft as you know you take chances and as Shanny has said more or less his approach this time was let the draft come to him.

Maybe they liked but not loved Dalton. And thought OK he's close to our pick lets see if he falls to us. The idea of this guy is our man, and we will do whatever it takes to get him -- is very Gibbs 2/Cerrato like and they got burned plenty of times with that approach. So its tough for me to give Shanny a hard time on it. I am tired of trading up and giving up picks or giving away next years picks. :)

J Reid though is with you on this point. but I don't take him overly seriously considering he has said on Comcast, he's not a Shanny fan, Reid was easily his worst critic until training camp. Reid eased up when he traded McNabb and AH.


Superbowl? Who knows? But, clearly that's not what I'm saying.
Playoffs (which was the OP)? I think its a realistic possibility w/ good QB play. Our defense is good. Rex threw 4 INTs and we were still in the game. Our defense locked the Eagles down in the second half, that's no small feat.

I don't think our O line is good enough. To me they still have to fix that and the QB position and find either a Wr within the roster or somewhere else that scares defenses.


Neither here nor there but Locker's being drafted higher then media expectation isn't a sign that he was over drafted, but rather a sign that the media perception of his evaluation wasn't on target. Also neither here nor there I wonder what would have happened if Locker was available at 10?

Don't know if they would have taken Locker of course. I just bring that up because some say Locker in the top 10 and Ponder at 16 were among the bigger surprises.

My larger point is they built their roster enough this off season IMO, that they can afford to go trade picks and get their QB next off season. If they love Griffin or Landry or Barkley or Flynn or whomever, I don't think it would be lost on them to do whatever it takes to get them and i think they will if Beck fails.

I doesn't seem a stretch to me to come up with a plan that is predicated by:

1. our roster stinks and is old. We need LOTS of help especially young players.
2. we cannot build towards the future by continuing to trade picks, if anything we need to add picks
3. If a QB we like falls to our pick we take them. (that's what Sheehan's source told him about Dalton)
4. If a Qb doesn't fall to us, we think we have a shot with Beck or Rex, we aren't sure but its worth the gamble if they don't work out we are building a supporting cast anyway and we get our guy next year.
5. Shanny doesn't expect this is likely or even remotely their Superbowl year. 2 things from media sources make me think so. A. Chris Russell said just that after the draft, his best source with the team told him that Shanny understands they have ways to go and need to seriously rebuild this roster. 2. Shanny in a WP article flat out said its not going to happen overnight, it will take time.

[Oldfan]

...John Beck maybe capable of managing the offense to between 24- 38 points a game just because of his mobility alone. I'm not expecting that as a fan Beck will not male errors. He'll be hit, and he may fumble and he was also throw picks. Maybe a few will be returned for TDs. But he won't be nearly as turnover prone as Grossman was and is.You used the phrase "managing the offense." I have noticed a couple of other posters saying that all this offense needed was a "game manager." I think of a game manager as a QB of a very conservative offense, one which runs the ball at least 50% of the time on offense and depends heavily on the defense for turnovers and short-field opportunities to win games. Mike Shanahan's offense requires more than that from a QB.

From what I've seen so far, John Beck looks more like a conventional, Bill Walsh, WCO type of QB. He's going to beat you with his legs and his short-to-medium passing game. He's going to move the chains with ball control.

In the past, Mike Shanahan has preferred QBs with stronger arms than the prototypical WCO guy, so he will have to adapt. Beck seems to have a fairly strong arm, but I don't get the feeling that his deep game will be good enough to do anything more than keep defenses honest.

I foresee good ball control, helping out the defense, lots of trips to the red zone, but only a fair percentage of TD conversions in the RZ because we don't have the power-blocking O-line that seems to be needed near the goal line.

[AKM311]

I foresee good ball control, helping out the defense, lots of trips to the red zone, but only a fair percentage of TD conversions in the RZ because we don't have the power-blocking O-line.

That is what I call managing an offense. He will not dictate a defense, but will manage what our offense is capable with him. Rex wanted to dictate a defense, not manage the offense and a game.

[Skinsinparadise]

That is what I call managing an offense. He will not dictate a defense, but will manage what our offense is capable with him. Rex wanted to dictate a defense, not manage the offense and a game.

Rexy is ranked 22nd in the league in yards/per play, he's not testing the defense that much in terms of going deep -- I get your point but I think that plays more into Rex's risk taking personality as to throwing into double coverage, etc. In the previous game he threw deeper more than typical for him this season but otherwise he's had thrown plenty of short/checkdown passes.

I noticed in preseason when Beck played against Baltimore, Kyle had him go deep and show off the arm. The WP Maese and Reid seemed to be off about the arm strength of these two guys, 2 Redskins players have said, Cooley was one forgot who the other was -- that Beck has the stronger arm. I am not saying Beck has a rocket but he seems to have more zip on his passes than Rex. We might see him test the defense more vertically than Rex.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 12:54 PM ----------


From what I've seen so far, John Beck looks more like a conventional, Bill Walsh, WCO type of QB. He's going to beat you with his legs and his short-to-medium passing game. He's going to move the chains with ball control. .

I agree with that but if he can improve his deep ball accuracy he might turn out to be more of a threat with the deep ball than Rex. I think for the most part Rex threw short to medium passes too, he was just ineffective doing so.

[BucketHTTR]

With John Beck's mobility.. I think our redzone numbers will start to go up.

[Skinsinparadise]

With John Beck's mobility.. I think our redzone numbers will start to go up.

That brings me back to Rex's first game in the preseason where he struggled in the red zone, Beck said coming into the next pre season game at the time said they'd he focus on scoring touchdowns which I took as a subtle dig at Rex. If the 2 major things Beck can improve on 1. Improve in the red zone. 2. avoid that costly mistake, he's going to look good.

The one thing about Beck to me that is Rex like that he needs to fix his fumbles. The both seem to hold the ball in a non secure fashion though Beck I think has a better sense of pressure and can get out of the way easier.

[darrelgreenie]

4. If a Qb doesn't fall to us, we think we have a shot with Beck or Rex, we aren't sure but its worth the gamble if they don't work out we are building a supporting cast anyway and we get our guy next year.My speculation for their thought process: We will be good enough to compete with Beck/Rex at QB and therefore don't need to address the QB position this offseason.


5. Shanny doesn't expect this is likely or even remotely their Superbowl year.Right but I didn't mention superbowl either I said reach their potential/compete for the playoffs.

I guess this is where we disagree:
But, imo every team owes it to themselves to have a player at QB that allows them to be competitive and the failure accomplish this goal imo can only be viewed as a mistake that results in a wasted year.

I think you would agree that right now this team is competitive enough to win games?

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 01:42 PM ----------


When I say he's 'screwed', I mean he willingly put himself in the situation, knowing he's got 2 guys, at least one of which can be on the team next year with the rookie. So for this year, Shanny's making the right decisions at QB. It was fair to give Rex a shot, and you should be glad Shan was so quick to take it away.Okay.
But it sounds to me like you're giving him credit for making the most of situation that he needlessly created or could have solved.

[planter]

Beck, like all QBs, will need pass protection

[BucketHTTR]

Yeah, I am a bit worried about the Panthers offense. They have a lot of talent, but if we can jump out early and Beck gets into a rythem then i'll feel a bit better

[Skinsinparadise]

My speculation for their thought process: We will be good enough to compete with Beck/Rex at QB and therefore don't need to address the QB position this offseason.

Right but I didn't mention superbowl either I said reach their potential/compete for the playoffs.

For me, I'd like to make the playoffs but i wouldn't build a team with that goal in mind, IMO like Shanny has said its about winning the superbowl. i am cool with taking a step back now to take a couple of steps forward later.


I guess this is where we disagree: But, imo every team owes it to themselves to have a player at QB that allows them to be competitive and the failure accomplish this goal imo can only be viewed as a mistake that results in a wasted year.

While the QB arguably benefits above all positions from experience, so do other players, so I don't look at bringing a big draft class in and getting them experience as a wasted year. to me there are too may moving parts to this decision that we aren't aware of -- what if Shanny does love Landry or Barkley and is salivating at next years draft class and conversely wasn't as in love with this years class where he wanted to mortgage some picks for them among other scenarios.


I think you would agree that right now this team is competitive enough to win games?

Yeah but its not the bottom line for me. I am not sweaty about the Redskins 2011 edition. We've been competitive before. I want this team to be an elite team and consistently so, become a team like the Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. That's why if the Skins think for example they will build their roster up now and trade up for whichever QB they love in 2012, not only am i cool with it but it makes perfect sense to me.



But it sounds to me like you're giving him credit for making the most of situation that he needlessly created or could have solved.

I just buy into the idea that you can take both a horrible defense and offense, and the oldest roster in the league -- and transform the whole drill in one off season, I don't think its unreasonable to give them 2 off seasons. The only thing I don't like is what they did in season one, to me that was the wasted year. Not this off season. and if they decided to go through the draft, considering the 2 Qbs that have been leaked that have peaked their interest in previous drafts Bradford and Dalton -- I am not worried that Shanny has lost his touch and will bomb with whomever he picks in next years draft if that's what happens.

[Oldfan]

...I agree with that but if he can improve his deep ball accuracy he might turn out to be more of a threat with the deep ball than Rex. I think for the most part Rex threw short to medium passes too, he was just ineffective doing so.If it turns out the JBeck can throw deep well, and we get a couple of boys who can get deep, that offense would be super. I'm convinced he can move the chains right now.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 03:14 PM ----------


Yeah, I am a bit worried about the Panthers offense. They have a lot of talent, but if we can jump out early and Beck gets into a rythem then i'll feel a bit betterHis coaches gave Cam a small playbook. By the sixth game, Haslett and Co. should have a pretty good read on their offense.

[BucketHTTR]

If it turns out the JBeck can throw deep well, and we get a couple of boys who can get deep, that offense would be super. I'm convinced he can move the chains right now.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 03:14 PM ----------

His coaches gave Cam a small playbook. By the sixth game, Haslett and Co. should have a pretty good read on their offense.

Actually, this is true. I'm hoping for no rain this week. I feel like we have a better chance at winning without a slopped up field. They have two mosters at RB's, and Williams is a poor man version of McCoy.

[Skinsinparadise]

DG:

funny been listening to the radio today, reading what I can, I'd summarize it as the following

Sports reporters -- Czaben and Pollan think J. Reid's article is flat out silly, they've upgraded their roster and the team is headed in the right direction, give him a year to finish the job and do the Qb thing at that point. Pretty much identical to my thoughts. Czaben thought Rex came across almost as bad as Jeff George in interviews this week and is now taking calls on the subject. Czaben thinks Beck will be the goods and thinks Rex is a disaster. Pollan thinks Beck will fail, he seems to be the most negative guy on the radio about Beck, and he seems to think Rex is likely the better QB. Pollan thinks both guys are stop gaps, Shanny knows it, and he has a QB plan for next year.

Jason Reid: is along your line of thinking. Shanny's rep is on the line if Beck isn't the answer. On the radio though Reid bashed Rex today and thinks Shanny is making the right move. He isn't a big Shanny guy by his own admission. I sensed that he thinks Beck will succeed.

Thom Loverro: closest than anyone to your line of thinking, he's OK with Shanny in general but thinks he failed if Beck doesn't work out and he needed to fix the position this year. He's down on Rex. He's unsure about Beck but will go for that ride if he isn't as turnover prone.

Sheehan: thinks both guys are stop gaps and Shanny has a plan for a new QB next year via the draft. He thinks the team is going in the right direction and doesn't fault Shanny for anything relating to the QB play. He seems skeptical about Beck, and seemed convinced Rex will be back.

Arrington -- thinks its a mistake to bench Rex in the middle of a winning streak, hence Shanny is screwing up.

Dukes: (doesn't know much about football but for entertainment purposes) identical position as Czaben, including taking calls about how bad Rex looks and sounds in interviews this week. He can't stand Rex, is optimistic about Beck. If this doesn't work out am sure he will pound shanny because that's his style.

Galdi -- pretty much identical point of view as Sheehan, except he seems to have a little more hope about Beck and is more anti-Rex.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think Shanny thought he was screwed at the QB position this year. He obviously has a lot of confidence in Beck. He traded for him and gave him a contract already. If Beck wouldn't of had a hamstring injury allowing Grossman to play so well, then Beck would of been the starter week 1. Now we are going to see the image of the football team Shanny wants. I think the offense was played to favor Grossman with quick releases and 3 step drops and less bootlegs. I think with Beck, that we will now see the bootleg again and the traditional style ofa Shanny offense we all understandAmen, brotha, amen.
I think Mike Shanahan had a lot of confidence in Beck.
But, I'll never understand nor agree with the decision to start Grossman.
I hope that we will see a more traditional Denver/Shanny offense but I still have my doubts.

[Skinsinparadise]

Locklear at LT, Cook at center, Montgomery at LG. Wonder if they can run the ball on the left side which they have favored to do this season, it should make things interesting for Beck