Panthers starting Undrafted rookie Byron Bell at RT

[hunterx]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/19/otah-ends-up-on-injured-reserve-again/

Their 2008 first round pick Otah is on IR again, putting undrafted rookie Byron Bell in the lineup. I think he's started for them once or twice this year already, but should be great news for our run defense and Kerrigan rushing from the outside.

We won't (or shouldn't) win this game with great offense, it will be won like most of our games, strong defense and a decent running attack. The more rookies they start the better news for us!

[SwampEm]

That actually is good news. Rookie QB's need a great line to do well. Undrafted rookie OL's usually don't do so well as replacements.

[Laxpunk2006]

I think he made his first start this year against Clay Matthews and held his own. Its always nice to get a second stronger in there but we saw how well that worked out for us this past week.

[Hitman21ST]

Just gotta limit Cam. He'll get his yards, especially with the reincarnation of Steve Smith (did you see that grab he had where he jumped higher than he is tall?). Gotta keep that **** to a minimum.

[jflow78]

This is either going to end one of two ways, Bell will be awful and Kerrigan will dominate and we'll all be happy, or Bell will actually play pretty well and we'll be pissed we missed out on a UDFA RT.

Did anyone else think Otah looked AWFUL before he was drafted. I know a handful of guys in here watch the combine and I'm telling you guys, the dude looked so stiff during OL drills it was uncomfortable watching him go through them. I seriously looked like he couldn't bend certain joints.

[2cents]

If they are allowed to hold as much as Philly was, it won't matter if it's a rookie or not.

[fifthorkid88]

Probably won"t make much a difference. The Eagles started at Third string LT last week and we didn't take advantage of it.

[Boss_Hogg]

I'm not sure it matters, we always play down to our opponents.

[Mahons21]

For once I would like to see us capitalize on a replacement level player.

[Hitman21ST]

Probably won"t make much a difference. The Eagles started at Third string LT last week and we didn't take advantage of it.

The Eagles also have the most elusive QB, probably ever, as their starter. Sure, he takes a lot of sacks as it is, but if he weren't as slippery, he would probably have at least double that number.

[Dirt]

Nope. Stop.

Remember all the 'great matchups' last week? Nope. Stop it.

[fifthorkid88]

The Eagles also have the most elusive QB, probably ever, as their starter. Sure, he takes a lot of sacks as it is, but if he weren't as slippery, he would probably have at least double that number.

And Cam Newton is essentially a bigger, stronger, and perhaps faster version of Vick, so yeah, it will not make a difference.

[2cents]

Probably won"t make much a difference. The Eagles started at Third string LT last week and we didn't take advantage of it.

I was going to post the number of missed holding calls on Rak and Kerrigan, but after it hit 8 at the start of the 2nd quarter I got so mad I had to stop. Kinda hard to take advantage when the guy can grab the back of your jersey while u r about to hit the QB and get away with it.

[nightbird]

I don't care.

We played an entire offensive line full of scrubs last week, and we couldn't pressure Vick (not to mention McCoy ran all over us).

The only offensive line I'm worried about is ours, because it needs improvement.

[jthor99]

I still think this defense is poor against the run, which in my opinion is one of the few Carolina strengths. As good as Rak is on the pass rush he really is a liability IMO in the run defense. Over runs a lot of plays trying to get to the edge, and he also struggles to diagnose plays.

McIntosh looked like, well how he looked last year. Week before, I was praising him and last week I thought he was a step slow all game. If Carolina rolls Cam out like the Eagles did for Vick, and if Carolina sticks with the running game then I see another long day for the defense.

[Hitman21ST]

And Cam Newton is essentially a bigger, stronger, and perhaps faster version of Vick, so yeah, it will not make a difference.

Cam is athletic, sure, but he's not nearly as elusive as Vick.

[SouthCarolinaSkins]

Cam is athletic, sure, but he's not nearly as elusive as Vick.

Exactly! Not to mention, Cam reminds me of "Shaggy" from Scooby Doo.... Yes, he's fast but he doesn't have a quick take off prior to running. It takes him a couple of steps before he really gets moving.

[TheGreek1973]

Cam is athletic, sure, but he's not nearly as elusive as Vick.

totally agree. Plus the Panthers don't have a RB that is as elusive in the hole as McCoy. that guy broke some defender angles last Sunday.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Cam is athletic, sure, but he's not nearly as elusive as Vick.

But he's more accurate,a better pocket passer,and makes better choices than Vick

[Hitman21ST]

But he's more accurate,a better pocket passer,and makes better choices than Vick

He has the most interceptions in the league.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Who cares...When the ORAKERRIGAN trains pulls up all havoc and mass pandemonium will take place!!!!

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 09:47 AM ----------


He has the most interceptions in the league.

He's a rookie how many did Manning have in his rookie year? Also your statement you make isn't true either! Cam has 9 int's thats one more int than TOM BRADY, and the SAME amount as Rex Grossman. Smh but I guess Brady with 8 ints isn't a better passer than Vick too? smh

Oh yeah by the way Vick has thrown 8 int's as well:silly:

[Hitman21ST]

He's a rookie how many did Manning have in his rookie year? Also your statement you make isn't true either! Cam has 9 int's thats one more int than TOM BRADY, and the SAME amount as Rex Grossman. Smh but I guess Brady with 8 ints isn't a better passer than Vick too? smh

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_INTERCEPTIONS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&experience=null&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=true

Um, yes it is. He has thrown the most INTs in the league so far. No one has any more than him. That's a fact. Vick also has the same number of INTs as Brady, and Brady has more TDs passing. So there goes your argument. How many INTs Manning had as a rookie has no bearing in this argument whatsoever.

Oh, and to really compare stats:

Vick is averaging 7.9 yards per attempt. Cam Newton is averaging 8.1. Vick has thrown more TDs and fewer INTs. Vick has also been sacked less. Do you really want to get into this debate?

[Gurgeh]

I don't care.

We played an entire offensive line full of scrubs last week, and we couldn't pressure Vick (not to mention McCoy ran all over us).

The only offensive line I'm worried about is ours, because it needs improvement.

The Eagles went to 3 step drop backs to compensate for their OL and our rush. Their OL is also much better at run blocking than pass protection. They made some smart adjustments last week.

[GO HAMSKINS]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_INTERCEPTIONS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&experience=null&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=true

Um, yes it is. He has thrown the most INTs in the league so far. No one has any more than him. That's a fact. Vick also has the same number of INTs as Brady, and Brady has more TDs passing. So there goes your argument. How many INTs Manning had as a rookie has no bearing in this argument whatsoever.

Oh, and to really compare stats:

Vick is averaging 7.9 yards per attempt. Cam Newton is averaging 8.1. Vick has thrown more TDs and fewer INTs. Vick has also been sacked less. Do you really want to get into this debate?


No, no need to debate. One person knows what there talking about the other is well... are you really trying to compare the Philly Offense who had Mcnabb in the Probowl the year before we got him to the Panthers team? the Pats who with Brady missing the year still made the playoffs and had a hell of a record without him.Infact Matt Cassel looked like the next big thing with the Pats in comparison to the Panthers? LOL my point is Cam is a rookie playing with the worst team in football yet look at his numbers! My point is the int's doesn't make any sense to your argument. So what happens if Cam doesn't throw and int this week,but Vick and Brady do? They will all have the same amount of INT's ,and thats my point. Cam is a rookie! FYI he leads the league with WR's dropping the most td's as well. Wonder what his numbers would have been without that stat,but anyway not going to continue in debating this agree to disagree.

dueces

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 10:12 AM ----------


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_INTERCEPTIONS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&experience=null&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=true

Um, yes it is. He has thrown the most INTs in the league so far. You Do know that Rex has thrown 9 int's as well dont you? just saying

[hunterx]

No no need to debate. One person knows what there talking about the other is well... are you really trying to compare the Philly Offense who had Mcnabb in the Probowl the year before we got him to the Panthers team? the Pats who with Brady missing the year still made the playoffs and had a hell of a record without him.Infact Matt Cassel looked like the next big thing with the Pats in comparison to the Panthers? LOL my point is Cam is a rookie playing with the worst team in football yet look at his numbers! My point is the int's doesn't make any sense to your argument. So what happens if Cam doesn't throw and int this week,but Vick and Brady do? They will all have the same amount of INT's ,and thats my point. Cam is a rookie! FYI he leads the league with WR's dropping the most td's as well. Wonder what his numbers would have been without that stat,but anyway not going to continue in debating this agree to disagree.



That's funny, you started the rant saying you didn't want to debate and then ended it with saying you didn't want to continue debating.

Let the debate continue!

[Hitman21ST]

No no need to debate. One person knows what there talking about the other is well... are you really trying to compare the Philly Offense who had Mcnabb in the Probowl the year before we got him to the Panthers team? the Pats who with Brady missing the year still made the playoffs and had a hell of a record without him.Infact Matt Cassel looked like the next big thing with the Pats in comparison to the Panthers? LOL my point is Cam is a rookie playing with the worst team in football yet look at his numbers! My point is the int's doesn't make any sense to your argument. So what happens if Cam doesn't throw and int this week,but Vick and Brady do? They will all have the same amount of INT's ,and thats my point. Cam is a rookie! FYI he leads the league with WR's dropping the most td's as well. Wonder what his numbers would have been without that stat,but anyway not going to continue in debating this agree to disagree.

dueces

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 10:12 AM ----------

You Do know that Rex has thrown 9 int's as well dont you? just saying

Yeah. I know what I'm talking about. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Hold on a sec, where does what I highlighted even come into play talking about quarterback's numbers this year?

When did the Panthers get worse than the Dolphins or Colts (this year) or any of the winless teams?

I do know that Rex has 9 INTs. That doesn't change that Cam has also, and that no one has thrown more...

The fact of the matter is, Vick is a better QB. I really don't care if Cam is a rookie, because that's when we're playing him. It doesn't matter at all what his potential is, or how good he'll be in a few years. We play him this week, and as of this week, Cam is a worse QB than Vick. A worse passer, less elusive, etc. No matter how it got that way or how he ends the season, at the point in the season that we play him, he isn't as good as you're touting him to be.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Yeah. I know what I'm talking about. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Hold on a sec, where does what I highlighted even come into play talking about quarterback's numbers this year?

When did the Panthers get worse than the Dolphins or Colts (this year) or any of the winless teams?

I do know that Rex has 9 INTs. That doesn't change that Cam has also, and that no one has thrown more...

The fact of the matter is, Vick is a better QB. I really don't care if Cam is a rookie, because that's when we're playing him. It doesn't matter at all what his potential is, or how good he'll be in a few years. We play him this week, and as of this week, Cam is a worse QB than Vick. A worse passer, less elusive, etc. No matter how it got that way or how he ends the season, at the point in the season that we play him, he isn't as good as you're touting him to be.

So the Colts are a worst than the Panthers? Smh my point exactly. So if you traded Cam to the Colts for Painter you are saying that the Colts would still be a WORST team than the Panthers? My point is Manning who we know is the better passer than Vick has thrown more int's than Cam in his rookie season.What's your point ? It's like you saying because he throws int's in his rookie season he's not a pocket passer. My other point is just cause Vick is playing on a better team doesn't make him a better pocket QB than Cam. So are you going to go out on the limb and say that Vick is a better POCKET Qb than Sam Bradford as well? Like I said we Agree to disagree! Feel free to respond but don't expect a response from me Im done with it. It's like some one trying to tell me 2+2 = 5 what's the point of keep going on just let them have their moment

[Hitman21ST]

Go ahead and play the "I'm obviously right so I'll ignore you" card. That's not juvenile at all.

Cam is on pace to throw just about as many INTs as Manning. That you're even comparing the two is plain laughable. Everyone knew Manning would only throw. Cam has the threat of the run, which makes his INT numbers stand out even more.

Cam would make the Colts better than Painter.

Out of those three, Bradford is the best passer. Between Vick and Cam, it's not even close. Vick is better than Cam in every way measurable save for total yards. He has more TDs, less INTs, gets sacked less, has a higher completion rate, and a higher passer rating.

You can't argue those numbers.

Oh, and Cam isn't a pocket passer. You trying to pass him off as one is absolutely ridiculous.

[TheGreek1973]

So the Colts are a worst than the Panthers? Smh my point exactly. So if you traded Cam to the Colts for Painter you are saying that the Colts would still be a WORST team than the Panthers? My point is Manning who we know is the better passer than Vick has thrown more int's than Cam in his rookie season.What's your point ? It's like you saying because he throws int's in his rookie season he's not a pocket passer. My other point is just cause Vick is playing on a better team doesn't make him a better pocket QB than Cam. So are you going to go out on the limb and say that Vick is a better POCKET Qb than Sam Bradford as well? Like I said we Agree to disagree! Feel free to respond but don't expect a response from me Im done with it. It's like some one trying to tell me 2+2 = 5 what's the point of keep going on just let them have their moment

hey guys I started a thread with some stats of the Ds Carolina has played this year. the best D they have faced is Arizona, currently at 11. 4 our of the 6 teams they have played have Ds ranked in the 20s with Chicago being 30. Honestly Cam has not faced any major Ds this year so far and certainly he has not faced any Ds like the Skins. Against Atlanta last week, pass D at 27 he threw 3 INTs....No way this guy right now is even close to Vick no matter how you look at it.

[GO HAMSKINS]

hey guys I started a thread with some stats of the Ds Carolina has played this year. the best D they have faced is Arizona, currently at 11. 4 our of the 6 teams they have played have Ds ranked in the 20s with Chicago being 30. Honestly Cam has not faced any major Ds this year so far and certainly he has not faced any Ds like the Skins. Against Atlanta last week, pass D at 27 he threw 3 INTs....No way this guy right now is even close to Vick no matter how you look at it.

What? Cam threw for damn near 500 yrds against Green Bay! smh people are still hating on Cam.Remember how much crow everyone had to eat on ES after the draft,but I must say most of the people on ES really did eat there crow like a man.

[Hitman21ST]

What? Cam threw for damn near 500 yrds against Green Bay! smh people are still hating on Cam.Remember how much crow everyone had to eat on ES after the draft,but I must say most of the people on ES really did eat there crow like a man.

He threw for 432 yards. Hardly "damn near 500." Green Bay also has the 31st ranked pass defense in the league. They're hardly a juggernaut. They're undefeated because they have the most dynamic offense in the league, not because they have a stalwart defense.

[GO HAMSKINS]

He threw for 432 yards. Hardly "damn near 500." Green Bay also has the 31st ranked pass defense in the league. They're hardly a juggernaut. They're undefeated because they have the most dynamic offense in the league, not because they have a stalwart defense.

Yeah,you're right,Greenbay has the worst Defense in the NFL point taken (sarcasm)

[Hitman21ST]

Yeah,you're right,Greenbay has the worst Defense in the NFL point taken (sarcasm)

23rd in total defense, 31st in pass defense.

Cam's passing yards (which is the stat you chose to use) has nothing to do with the amount of points they gave up, so don't try to bring that into play.

Lose the argument, change the parameters. Good strategy.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Out of those three, Bradford is the best passer. Between Vick and Cam, it's not even close. Vick is better than Cam in every way measurable save for total yards. He has more TDs, less INTs, gets sacked less, has a higher completion rate, and a higher passer rating..

Oh, and Cam isn't a pocket passer. You trying to pass him off as one is absolutely ridiculous. No, you trying to pass Vick off as a pocket passer is crazy. Just to prove your Contradiction I highlighted it for you! That was my whole point. Bradford has the worst stats out of the 3 qb's mentioned, but yet you say he's still better right? Though you use Vick one less Int as a stat to say he's a better POCKET qb than Cam? SMH at this CONTRADICTION.. I Knew my Sam Bradford remark would bait you in to that contradiction.My plan worked perfect. So you see why I don't need to continuing debating with you?

[TheGreek1973]

What? Cam threw for damn near 500 yrds against Green Bay! smh people are still hating on Cam.Remember how much crow everyone had to eat on ES after the draft,but I must say most of the people on ES really did eat there crow like a man.

Cam was not playing against GB offense bud. GB has the leagues 31 ranked pass D allowing over 300 yards per game.

hell I go even further. Rodgers goes down along with one of their stellar receivers, IMO they become a very very average team.

[GO HAMSKINS]

23rd in total defense, 31st in pass defense.

Cam's passing yards (which is the stat you chose to use) has nothing to do with the amount of points they gave up, so don't try to bring that into play.

Lose the argument, change the parameters. Good strategy. No, just proving my point that sats at times can be very overrated. Now I know you wouldn't go out on a limb to say Greenbay's D is horrible because you know that everyone would know you don't know what the hell your talking about. So you try to hide behind you stat sheet lol. My Question to you is this..Does GreenBay have a good defense or not? Never heard so much craziness in my life...wait a minute you're not Skip Bayless are you?

[Hitman21ST]

No, you trying to pass Vick off as a pocket passer is crazy. Just to prove your Contradiction I highlighted it for you! That was my whole point. Bradford has the worst stats out of the 3 qb's mentioned, but yet you say he's still better right? Though you use Vick one less Int as a stat to say he's a better POCKET qb than Cam? SMH at this CONTRADICTION.. I Knew my Sam Bradford remark would bait you in to that contradiction.My plan worked perfect. So you see why I don't need to continuing debating with you?

Please point out to me where I said Vick is a "pocket passer," because I never did. I said Cam isn't. Reading might help. Bradford, however, IS a better pocket passer, he just has absolutely horrible receivers. Vick has good receivers, Cam has a great receiver and good TEs. Bradford has no one. Bradford also has fewer INTs than either.

So, like I said, you trying to pass Cam off as a pocket passer is ridiculous.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Cam was not playing against GB offense bud. GB has the leagues 31 ranked pass D allowing over 300 yards per game.

Yeah okay. Answer this then How come so many people wer comparing our Defense with Greenbays last season? All I Heard on here was "give the 3-4 a chance just look at GREENBAY's DEFENSE they were bad untill they got the pieces they needed" I guess we all wanted the Washington D to turn into this so called weakest defense in the NFL you guys are trying to convince GB is..stop it it's just laughable really

[dallasfan]

While Cam Newton is off to a great start for his career, he isn't in the same ballpark as Vick (fwiw, I think Vick is overrated). Carolina uses a lot of Shot Gun because that's what he's familiar with, and a lot of play action when under center (13th ranked rushing team and Cam Newton only accounts for 35 ypg). He rarely works through multiple reads and often stares down recievers.

Does that mean he's bad, no, but it means he's playing well for a rookie, not playing well.

[Skinsinparadise]

For once I would like to see us capitalize on a replacement level player.

Kerrigan hopefully exploits it. To me Orkapo is so hot and cold (probably warm is a better word than cold) that i don't really count on him to have a big game, he has his big games but he doesn't seem to be a threat to get a sack week in and week out, like Ware, Osi, etc. Orkapo complains about rarely being mentioned with the top pass rushers, IMO though its because he isn't consistent just yet.

[Hitman21ST]

No, just proving my point that sats at times can be very overrated. Now I know you wouldn't go out on a limb to say Greenbay's D is horrible because you know that everyone would know you don't know what the hell your talking about. So you try to hide behind you stat sheet lol. My Question to you is this..Does GreenBay have a good defense or not? Never heard so much craziness in my life...wait a minute you're not Skip Bayless are you?

Is Green Bay's defense horrible? No. Can you use Cam throwing for 432 against them as a way to prove that he's an amazing passer? No, because they have a horrible pass defense. Oh, and Vick threw for 292 against them when they had a much better defense in the playoff game last year.

[TheGreek1973]

No, just proving my point that sats at times can be very overrated. Now I know you wouldn't go out on a limb to say Greenbay's D is horrible because you know that everyone would know you don't know what the hell your talking about. So you try to hide behind you stat sheet lol. My Question to you is this..Does GreenBay have a good defense or not? Never heard so much craziness in my life...wait a minute you're not Skip Bayless are you?

Numbers don't lie man, and yes if a rookie QB can put that many yards on a D to me they are suspect. Now if the Skins D gets torched by Cam this Sunday for that many yards yes I will eat crow.

[Hitman21ST]

Yeah okay. Answer this then How come so many people wer comparing our Defense with Greenbays last season? All I Heard on here was "give the 3-4 a chance just look at GREENBAY's DEFENSE they were bad untill they got the pieces they needed" I guess we all wanted the Washington D to turn into this so called weakest defense in the NFL you guys are trying to convince GB is..stop it it's just laughable really

Green Bay's defense LAST YEAR in no way effects how good they are THIS YEAR.

[GibbsFactor]

John Beck told Jeff Otah not to play this week as his name sounded too much like Utah.

Kerrigan thus thanked John Beck by giving him his wife.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Please point out to me where I said Vick is a "pocket passer," because I never did. I said Cam isn't. Reading might help. Bradford, however, IS a better pocket passer, he just has absolutely horrible receivers. Vick has good receivers, Cam has a great receiver and good TEs. Bradford has no one. Bradford also has fewer INTs than either.

So, like I said, you trying to pass Cam off as a pocket passer is ridiculous.

Great Wr's? Who? Steve Smith? LOL he hasn't been doing much as of late up until Cam help rejuvenate his career quite frankly.Infact he was on the trading block but couldn't find any takers for the aging Smith,but please do continue on. My Bradford point has you trapped in the quicksand of Hypocrisy.I never said Cam is a Pocket passer.I said the obvious, he's a better pocket passer than Vick.The fact that he's a rookie on a worst team and still can put up better throwing numbers than Vick further explains my point.We will see when it's all said and done.Cam is setting NFL PASSING records already in his Rookie season ...Can you name one single PASSING record that Vick(the better passer) holds today? Thankyou enjoy these free tickets to STFU land

[Mahons21]

Kerrigan hopefully exploits it. To me Orkapo is so hot and cold (probably warm is a better word than cold) that i don't really count on him to have a big game, he has his big games but he doesn't seem to be a threat to get a sack week in and week out, like Ware, Osi, etc. Orkapo complains about rarely being mentioned with the top pass rushers, IMO though its because he isn't consistent just yet.

I would like to see more than just Kerrigan exploiting it though, I'd like to see us attempt to take advantage of it schematically. The most obvious way being an over-load blitz or two. Then show the overload but drop into coverage, an so on.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Green Bay's defense LAST YEAR in no way effects how good they are THIS YEAR.

Oh Im sorry. I was under the impression that GB's is undefeated at the moment. I believe GB's last years Defense allowed the Redskins pathetic Offense (with Mcnabb as the QB) beat them. So yeah .....

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 11:53 AM ----------


I would like to see more than just Kerrigan exploiting it though, I'd like to see us attempt to take advantage of it schematically. The most obvious way being an over-load blitz or two. Then show the overload but drop into coverage, an so on.

Kerrigan is a force that can't be stopped! I think he and Rakpo will make it a tough day for Cam

[Mahons21]

Kerrigan is a force that can't be stopped! I think he and Rakpo will make it a tough day for Cam

We shall see, I sure hope youre right.

[RAAZ227]

I don't think the panthers have seen a d line like ours yet. I hope Haslett dials it up!

[killer938]

To be fair our offense in that game was getting hammered until Matthews went off injured, that was the game changer that day. The other thing is with GB defense, it is giving up a lot of yards but look how many turnovers they have, 11 int already. That, along with having the best offense in the league, is why they are undefeated.

[Hitman21ST]

I never said Cam is a Pocket passer. I said the obvious he is a better pocket passer than Vick is.

Based on what? Vick has outperformed Cam in every aspect, save for total yards. How is it "obvious" Cam's a better pocket passer?


The fact that he's a rookie on a worst team and still can put up better throwing numbers than Vick further explains my point.

Only he hasn't put up better numbers than Vick. He only has more yards.


We will see when it's all said and done.Cam is setting NFL PASSING records as a rookie already ...can you name one single PASSING record that Vick(the better passer) holds today? Thankyou enjoy these free tickets to STFU land

So Cam had a great game. One great game does not a quarterback make though. You only want to bring stats into when they help you out, but you choose to ignore the stats that show that THIS YEAR, Vick is a better passer (higher completion %, more TD, fewer INT, higher passer rating).

If the only thing you have to say is that "Cam has a record" to support your argument, that's not really a great supportive argument.

[GO HAMSKINS]

The Only chance NC panthers had was REX Grossman was the starting QB.Not becuase of Rex is just that sorry but because of the momentum of Rex starting. Meaning,With Rex as the starter Carolina would have been pumped up to stop him,hell after one int thrown by Rex the fans would have went crazy. With Beck momentum will be in our favor for the most part(unless he totally implodes) Cam is still just a Rookie playing on a horrible team. are defense is bananas! He will get sacked,he will throw int's. As long as are offense just sustain drives and score some Td's in the redzone and Gano makes the FG's that he is suppose to make we should be fine IMO. Our D is just too much for any rookie!

[TheGreek1973]

The Only chance NC panthers had was REX Grossman was the starting QB.Not becuase of Rex is just that sorry but because of the momentum of Rex starting. Meaning,With Rex as the starter Carolina would have been pumped up to stop him,hell after one int thrown by Rex the fans would have went crazy. With Beck momentum will be in our favor for the most part(unless he totally implodes) Cam is still just a Rookie playing on a horrible team. are defense is bananas! He will get sacked,he will throw int's. As long as are offense just sustain drives and score some Td's in the redzone and Gano makes the FG's that he is suppose to make we should be fine IMO. Our D is just too much for any rookie!

I agree. Because of the Rex debacle last Sunday and the way the Eagles got of to a very very fast start, no one is talking about the fact that our D figured things out and shutdown such an explosive offense in the 2nd half.

[Hitman21ST]

Oh Im sorry. I was under the impression that GB's is undefeated at the moment. I believe GB's last years Defense allowed the Redskins pathetic Offense (with Mcnabb as the QB) beat them. So yeah .....

And that changes my argument how? Our defense sucked last year, but we're top ten this year. How can that be? Holy crap, maybe because last year has nothing to do with this year!

Green Bay's offense has more to do with them being undefeated than their defense. THEY HAVE ALLOWED 300+ PASSING YARDS PER GAME on average. Last year, Green Bay was a top ten defense. This year, they're 23rd.

So again. Performance last year does not effect performance this year AT ALL.

[paloosa]

Don't underestimate the guy or what he is capable of doing. There aren't too many Winston Justice's out there. He got owned by Osi when the he was a rookie and the Giants played Philly that year. Osi had 5 or 6 sacks and Justice was a first round pick for the Eagles. Some of the best players in NFL history have been undrafted FA's. It sure makes it easier though since he hasn't played a lot so we may take advantage of his lack of playing time. But it isn't really good news but an advantage none the less.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Based on what? Vick has outperformed Cam in every aspect, save for total yards. How is it "obvious" Cam's a better pocket passer?



Only he hasn't put up better numbers than Vick. He only has more yards.



"Cam has a record" to support your argument, that's not really a great supportive argument. Cam has set RECORDS! Cam has set more than one NFL"PASSING" record already The fact you can't name one passing Record for a VET is just laughable becuase based off what you say he';s so much better of a Passer. Funny thing is this Panthers have drafted first round Qb's that have all failed in the Panthers Offense. Vick plays for Philly,who under Reids has made any QB they put inm look good. Garicia,Mcnabb(might make the HOF off rieds offense) Kolb,Vick,ect The funny thing is this there is a couple of guys i didnt even mention.It's the Philly offense Block head not the QB! smh Are you telling me that Cam in Philly's offense with Reid as the coach,that Cam would implode when no QB has done so since with Reid as the coach? Like I enjoy this cup of STFU

[Hitman21ST]

Cam has set RECORDS! Cam has set more than one NFL"PASSING" record already The fact you can't name one passing Record for a VET is just laughable becuase based off what you say he';s so much better of a Passer. Funny thing is this Panthers have drafted first round Qb's that have all failed in the Panthers Offense. Vick plays for Philly,who under Reids has made any QB they put inm look good. Garicia,Mcnabb(might make the HOF off rieds offense) Kolb,Vick,ect The funny thing is this there is a couple of guys i didnt even mention.It's the Philly offense Block head not the QB! smh Are you telling me that Cam in Philly's offense with Reid as the coach,that Cam would implode when no QB has done so since with Reid as the coach? Like I enjoy this cup of STFU

Vick has success with a QB friendly coach. The horror!

Philip Rivers doesn't have any records either. I guess Cam is better than Rivers, huh?

Sure it's the system. Brady without Belichick wouldn't have the TD record or the Super Bowls. I guess Cam's better than Brady too, then.

[GO HAMSKINS]

I agree. Because of the Rex debacle last Sunday and the way the Eagles got of to a very very fast start, no one is talking about the fact that our D figured things out and shutdown such an explosive offense in the 2nd half.

Right and with Rex teams will always fill like there is a chance win.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 12:24 PM ----------


Vick has success with a QB friendly coach. The horror!

Philip Rivers doesn't have any records either. I guess Cam is better than Rivers, huh?

Sure it's the system. Brady without Belichick wouldn't have the TD record or the Super Bowls. I guess Cam's better than Brady too, then.

actually Tom Brady and Rivers have all set PASSINg records already.Funny this is this,the only one you mention that hasn't is VIck unless you count having more rushing yards than passing yards in a season a record? Also to my point " stats lie" see how i just worked that.

---------- Post added October-20th-2011 at 12:31 PM ----------


Vick has success with a QB friendly coach. The horror!. Are you trying to argue my point for me? Yes so lets breakdown the logic....... Vick has been a horrible passer his whole entire career (even college) without Philly. Now he's in a SYSTEM that any Qb you put in there can preform? He's has become a better passer in his career. Now Cam is in a system that turn POCKET PASSING qb's into garbage but is yet putting up top yards numbers and has set TWO nfl PASSING records already.....wonder what Cam would do in Philly,or better yet I bet Philly would trade Vick straight up for Cam Newton right now

[Hitman21ST]

actually Tom Brady and Rivers have all set PASSINg records already.Funny this is this,the only one you mention that hasn't is VIck unless you count having more rushing yards than passing yards in a season a record?

The only record Rivers has is most passing yards through eight games. About as relevant as, say, Vick's record of being the only QB who has thrown for 300 yards and four TDs and run for 50 yards and 2 TD or being the only QB to throw for 250 yards and rush for 100 yards in a game.

Brady set the records in a QB-friendly system, so they don't count according to you.


Funny thing is this Panthers have drafted first round Qb's that have all failed in the Panthers Offense.

Oh, and the Panthers have drafted two first round quarterbacks. Kerry Collins and Cam Newton. So tell me who the other "first round QBs that have failed in the Panthers' system" are, please.


Also to my point " stats lie" see how i just worked that.

So stats lie only for me when I'm arguing them, but when you argue them for Cam, they don't?

Your "Cam has a record" argument is based off STATS. But according to you "Stats lie" so we can't really use the record argument now, can we?

[BucketHTTR]

I still think this defense is poor against the run, which in my opinion is one of the few Carolina strengths. As good as Rak is on the pass rush he really is a liability IMO in the run defense. Over runs a lot of plays trying to get to the edge, and he also struggles to diagnose plays.

McIntosh looked like, well how he looked last year. Week before, I was praising him and last week I thought he was a step slow all game. If Carolina rolls Cam out like the Eagles did for Vick, and if Carolina sticks with the running game then I see another long day for the defense.

Mike Vick can make a lot of people look a step slow, so can MCcoy.

Doesn't really matter who is starting on their line. They are NFL players and get paid to perform. We need to start faster on defense this week and make Cam play from behind and eliminate their run game like Philly did to us.

[Hitman21ST]

Are you trying to argue my point for me? Yes so lets breakdown the logic....... Vick has been a horrible passer his whole entire career (even college) without Philly. Now he's in a SYSTEM that any Qb you put in there can preform? He's has become a better passer in his career.

True.


Now Cam is in a system that turn POCKET PASSING qb's into garbage

You mean Jimmy Clausen? Yeah, he was going to be great if it weren't for Carolina....

Or Matt Moore? No, he sucks anyway.

Brian St. Pierre? Still no.

Jake Delhomme? The guy who took the Panthers to the Super Bowl then got too old to be effective? That doesn't work for you.

Vinny Testaverde? Past his prime when he started.

David Carr? Nope.

Chris Weinke? Laughable

Save for Delhomme, who just got old, the Panthers haven't had a good QB since Kerry Collins. They've hardly "turned QBs into garbage"

You're grasping at straws.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Oh, and the Pa
So stats lie only for me when I'm arguing them, but when you argue them for Cam, they don't?

Your "Cam has a record" argument is based off STATS. But according to you "Stats lie" so we can't really use the record argument now, can we?nthers have drafted two first round quarterbacks. Kerry Collins and Cam Newton. So tell me who the other "first round QBs that have failed in the Panthers' system" are, please.




Thats was my point I've been schooling you thus far with the same strategy., Bait you in with your own argument , Then make you Contradict yourself. Also Stats and NFL Records are a little bit different my man...TIck Tick BOOM You Either Know football or NO football ...Jesus This thread isn't even about Cam it's about a rookie O linemen. Like I've said already and will reiterate again for you AGREE TO DISAGREE. It's not fair to the others to have to keep reading pages about Vick vs Cam, not only am I Right I have Schooled you already and really there isn't no reason for me to continue on with you. You have made your pointless points already,I have taken them with a grain of salt Now don't respond to me unsless you are talking about the Panthers new Linemen HA!

[Hitman21ST]

Thats was my point I've been schooling you thus far with the same strategy., Bait you in with your own argument , Then make you Contradict yourself. Also Stats and NFL Records are a little bit different my man...TIck Tick BOOM You Either Know football or NO football ...Jesus This thread isn't even about Cam it's about a rookie O linemen. Like I've said already and will reiterate again for you AGREE TO DISAGREE. It's not fair to the others to have to keep reading pages about Vick vs Cam, not only am I Right I have Schooled you already and really there isn't no reason for me to continue on with you. You have made your pointless points already,I have taken them with a grain of salt Now don't respond to me unsless you are talking about the Panthers new Linemen HA!

Right :rolleyes:

I never contradicted myself. I corrected myself. Besides, having the record for most passing yards through the first eight games of the season is like being the frontrunner for MVP after eight games. In other words, it's meaningless.

Records are based on what? Stats. Since according to you, "stats lie" records need to be taken with a grain of salt, yet you're using it as the end all be all of why Cam is great. So besides the single game record that Cam has, you've got nothing on why Cam is better.

You discount what Vick has done because he's in a QB friendly system, but then want to use Brady, even though he's in a QB friendly system. You're the one contradicting yourself. You've also conveniently ignored the points that show you why you're wrong.

You're right on one point though. You either know football or you don't. Trying to say Cam is better than Vick shows everyone that you don't know football.

Tell me again how you're right?

[GO HAMSKINS]

Right :rolleyes:

I never contradicted myself. I corrected myself. Besides, having the record for most passing yards through the first eight games of the season is like being the frontrunner for MVP after eight games. In other words, it's meaningless.

Records are based on what? Stats. Since according to you, "stats lie" records need to be taken with a grain of salt, yet you're using it as the end all be all of why Cam is great. So besides the single game record that Cam has, you've got nothing on why Cam is better.

You discount what Vick has done because he's in a QB friendly system, but then want to use Brady, even though he's in a QB friendly system. You're the one contradicting yourself. You've also conveniently ignored the points that show you why you're wrong.

You're right on one point though. You either know football or you don't. Trying to say Cam is better than Vick shows everyone that you don't know football.

Tell me again how you're right?

Okay junior you win Im wrong. You're Right Tom Brady isn't half the POCKET PASSING Qb that Vick is nor is Cam ..blah blah can you give it a rest now..I did said you win didn't I? AGREE TO DISAGREE keep it moving will you junior

[CarolinaPride]

Bell has shown some potential. He did a decent job against Clay Matthews, but then got handled by Abraham last week. He has all the physical tools, just needs to get the experience, so he can fine tune himself.


Why the Vick comparisons to Newton?

Newton has 13 total TDs, 9 turnovers. Vick has 9 total TDs, 11 turnovers.
Newton has 2054 total yards. Vick has 1945 total yards.

Vick is 2%-3% more accurate through the air. Newton is on a team that is top 2 or 3 in the league, in dropped passes.

Vick has a higher ypc run average, but then again, Newton normally just runs on third and short, to pick up the first, or on run plays designed for him, dialed up by the OC. He doesn't just take off all willy nilly like Vick does, every time his pocket breaks down.

[BucketHTTR]

Hostility is among us

[skinsrbeast]

wait i forgot... is Vick better or is Newton better?...

[GO HAMSKINS]

Bell has shown some potential. He did a decent job against Clay Matthews, but then got handled by Abraham last week. He has all the physical tools, just needs to get the experience, so he can fine tune himself.


Why the Vick comparisons to Newton?

Newton has 13 total TDs, 9 turnovers. Vick has 9 total TDs, 11 turnovers.
Newton has 2054 total yards. Vick has 1945 total yards.

Vick is 2%-3% more accurate through the air. Newton is on a team that is top 2 or 3 in the league, in dropped passes.

Vick has a higher ypc run average, but then again, Newton normally just runs on third and short, to pick up the first, or on run plays designed for him, dialed up by the OC. He doesn't just take off all willy nilly like Vick does, every time his pocket breaks down.

HIm Thinks Vick is a better POCKET Passer than Cam Newton? Even Though Vick plays on a team That will make you believe Qb's are actually better passers than what they really are, as history has shown us. He's doesn't know the game very well.As a Skin Fan I do apologize for his football ignorance

[Hitman21ST]

HIm Thinks Vick is a better POCKET Passer than Cam Newton? Even Though Vick plays on a team That will make you believe Qb's are actually better passers than what they really are, as history has shown us. He's doesn't know the game very well.As a Skin Fan I do apologize for his football ignorance

Again...Vick has better PASSING NUMBERS THAN NEWTON. Why is that so hard to grasp? If a scheme is QB friendly (such as the Eagles, Patriots, and Colts) the QBs will perform better. This is the DeMarcus Ware argument on offense. Ware is good at getting sacks, in scheme that is designed to get him sacks. Vick is a good passer, in a scheme that is designed to make him a good passer. You want to discount his passing numbers because he's in the right system. Steve Young didn't do well until he went to San Fran, where he flourished in a system that was designed to accentuate his strengths. Like Vick is now. You want to discount all of that evidence.

Wait a second, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady are in a QB-friendly system too. Are you going to ignore what they do because their systems cater to their strengths?

Cam is good, and in a few years will be better than Vick. This year, though, Vick is clearly the better QB. You want to talk about football ignorance yet you can't see that you're arguing in circles and you have a double standard. The Panthers didn't draft Newton for his pocket passing. They drafted him because of his complete playmaking ability, of which he has a good amount, just not that of Vick. Yet.

Guess what? Cam's in a system that caters to his strengths too. Are you going to even acknowledge that little gem, "junior?" He's in the gun almost as much as he was at Auburn.


Okay junior you win Im wrong. You're Right Tom Brady isn't half the POCKET PASSING Qb that Vick is nor is Cam ..blah blah can you give it a rest now..I did said you win didn't I? AGREE TO DISAGREE keep it moving will you junior

Where did I say that? I compared Vick to Cam. You said I should ignore how Vick's doing because he's in a QB-friendly system. To which I replied that Brady is too, so we need to ignore how he's doing going by your logic. The logical conclusion from those two statements (to you anyway) is that Cam is a better pocket passer than Brady, because Brady's in a QB-friendly system. Follow, "junior?"

[Rodriggo]

Does anyone remember the last time the Redskins exploited a matchup advantage?

I sure as **** can't.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Does anyone remember the last time the Redskins exploited a matchup advantage?

I sure as **** can't.

I sure can't think of none

[Hitman21ST]

I sure can't think of none

JaMarcus Russell and the Raiders two years ago possibly, but that was really JaMarcus exploiting himself...

[GO HAMSKINS]

JaMarcus Russell and the Raiders two years ago possibly, but that was really JaMarcus exploiting himself...

Basically HA!

[Hitman21ST]

Basically HA!

2007 week 16...we beat the Vikings 32-21. Vikings had Tarvaris Jackson at QB. Could that be considered an exploit?

[CarolinaPride]

HIm Thinks Vick is a better POCKET Passer than Cam Newton? Even Though Vick plays on a team That will make you believe Qb's are actually better passers than what they really are, as history has shown us. He's doesn't know the game very well.As a Skin Fan I do apologize for his football ignorance


I will say this. Newton now, as a rookie, is everything Falcon fans wished Vick was during his time with the Falcons.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

2007 week 16...we beat the Vikings 32-21. Vikings had Tarvaris Jackson at QB. Could that be considered an exploit?

Yeah...I think that was the last time. Whenever I hear stuff like this, it makes me think the guy will have a career day against us since that's always the way.

[pjfootballer]

All it means is nobody on that side will get a sack. The Eagles started a scrub also.

[Redgrape]

Probably won"t make much a difference. The Eagles started at Third string LT last week and we didn't take advantage of it.

This was far from true. Orakpo got a lot of pressure, the issue was he couldn't tackle Vick.

[pjfootballer]

Wow, a thread started about the Panthers rookie LT starting has turned into a Brady/Cam/Vick debate. This train derailed in a hurry.

[fifthorkid88]

This was far from true. Orakpo got a lot of pressure, the issue was he couldn't tackle Vick.

Don't know what game you were watching...