Homer: Comparing stats of Beck/Grossman/McNabb to Campbell/Brunell/Ramsey

[themurf]

http://www.homermcfanboy.com/images/kshanahan110311.jpg

(photo by Brian Murphy)

Mike Shanahan has been the head coach of the Washington Redskins for 23 games.

During that time, he’s utilized three different quarterbacks — Donovan McNabb, Rex Grossman and John Beck.

Because I’m apparently a masochist, I went back and crunched the numbers those three gentlemen racked up during their time with the Shanahan clan, and because misery loves company, I’m going to share those stats with you now.

Since Shanahan took over, those three Redskins quarterbacks have completed 491 out of 855 passes they’ve attempted (57 percent) for 5,488 yards. They’ve thrown 28 touchdowns, while turning the football over 47 times (31 interceptions and 16 fumbles). That’s good enough for a combined quarterback rating of 72.4 and a 9-14 record.

In case you’re wondering, that translates to an average of 21 completions on 37 attempts for 238 yards with a touchdown and two turnovers per game. That’s what Redskins fans have “enjoyed” since Jim Zorn and friends were run out of town with the promise of better days ahead.

It was at this point that I became curious how the three-headed monster of “McGrossbeck” compares to the previous three starting quarterbacks in Washington — Jason Campbell, Mark Brunell and Patrick Ramsey.

All three were eventually run out of town, but I wondered if their statistics any better or worse than what passes for acceptable quarterback play under Mike and Kyle Shanahan? Here’s what I found out:

In 52 starts, an average box score for Campbell works out to 19 of 31 for 208 yards (61 percent) with one touchdown, one turnover and a 82.3 QB rating.

In 33 starts, an average box score for Brunell works out to 16 of 28 for 182 yards (57 percent) with one touchdown, one turnover and a 80.6 QB rating.

In 24 starts, an average box score for Ramsey works out to 20 of 35 for 235 yards (55 percent) with one touchdown, two turnovers and a 75.0 QB rating.

Once again, an average box score for “McGrossbeck” is 21 of 37 for 238 yards (57 percent) with one touchdown, two turnovers and a 72.4 QB rating.

Campbell posted the best completion percentage and highest quarterback rating of the bunch. Ramsey threw for the most yards, but also had the lowest completion percentage. Brunell once saved Joe Gibbs life (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1731097), but his on-the-field production was pretty awful any way you try to spin it.

But what these numbers really say to me is that it’s been a long, long time since the Redskins enjoyed solid and consistent production from the quarterback position. Campbell’s stats aren’t terrible, but they’re not nearly good enough to say definitively that he’s a sure-fire franchise quarterback.

And without a franchise quarterback to build around, the Redskins have suffered. Quarterbacks, coaches and coordinators have come and gone over the last decade, but the results remain the same — with Washington going just 63-88 since 2002.*

*Of course, the previous nine seasons weren’t any better, but I really didn’t want to go back and crunch the numbers for every quarterback Steve Spurrier, Marty Schottenheimer and Norv Turner trotted out during their tenure. I’d rather watch a marathon of Sarah Jessica Parker movies than spend another minute on bums like Tony Banks, Gus Frerotte and Heath Shuler.

In related news, I’m convinced now more than ever that the Redskins should do anything and everything in their power to acquire Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck.

Scouts believe the 22-year-old’s skill set is the most NFL ready since Peyton Manning and/or John Elway, so just imagine what swapping out Beck or Grossman in favor of Luck would mean to the Redskins overnight.

Not only does Luck possess what many consider once-in-a-generation talent, but his arrival would improve the Redskins by simply subtracting those guys from the equation.

Even if he’s asked to play with the same exact supporting cast that got shut out 23-0 last weekend against the Buffalo Bills, Luck is skilled enough to move the offense past midfield and challenge a defense that gives up more than 24 points per game. Obviously, the same cannot be said about the current starter.

Click here (http://www.homermcfanboy.com/2011/11/04/redskins-quarterbacks-are-really-really-bad/) for the full article.

[Chase M]

All I got from this is the Redskins have not had a true QB for as long as I been a alive. (20 years) Man, I wish I was alive for the "Glory Days"

[KDawg]

Is it too early to start cracking open beverages?

*sigh*

[Skinsinparadise]

It's fun to keep talking about us acquiring Luck, but I am guessing its like about a 5% chance if that we can make it happen, if we are going Qb in the draft, IMO we should be talking some also about plan B which is more realistic, Barkley, Griffin, Landry?

[authentic]

.... we should be talking some also about plan B which is more realistic, Barkley, Griffin, Landry?

More realistic, and probably more beneficial for the overall health of the franchise going forward.

[SkinsHokieFan]

The QB position has been a disaster since Gibbs 1.

Somehow, no matter who Joe Gibbs trotted out in the 1980s, they were all effective.

Since then we have had glimpses of good QB play in the last half of 1998 and in the early part of 1999. Thats pretty much it

[themurf]

All I got from this is the Redskins have not had a true QB for as long as I been a alive. (20 years) Man, I wish I was alive for the "Glory Days"

An argument could be made that Joe Theismann and Sonny Jurgensen are the only two franchise quarterbacks the Redskins have had in the last 40 years. One's career was cut short by a gruesome injury and half the fan base tried to run the other guy out of town in favor of his back-up. Like I said, if there's ever a franchise that deserves to win the lottery with one of these quarterbacks coming out in 2012, it's the Redskins.

[authentic]

The QB position has been a disaster since Gibbs 1.

Somehow, no matter who Joe Gibbs trotted out in the 1980s, they were all effective.

Since then we have had glimpses of good QB play in the last half of 1998 and in the early part of 1999. Thats pretty much it

I don't know what was worse, letting go Trent Green or Brad Johnson. Both went on to have a great amount of success since leaving here....I hope that our scouts are working overtime in making sure that our next franchise QB is "the One"...

[SkinsHokieFan]

An argument could be made that Joe Theismann and Sonny Jurgensen are the only two franchise quarterbacks the Redskins have had in the last 40 years. One's career was cut short by a gruesome injury and half the fan base tried to run the other guy out of town in favor of his back-up. Like I said, if there's ever a franchise that deserves to win the lottery with one of these quarterbacks coming out in 2012, it's the Redskins.

I only wish we had started Beck since week 1. We would be where the Colts and Dolphins are

November 14th would be the Luck bowl

[nfl guru]

Not ONCE have we been in the top 10 of offensive yards or scoring since the 1999 season. From 1983 til 1991, we were top 10 in scoring and yards 8 times and look at our success. The one year we were in the upper half of the league in scoring, we made the playoffs in 2005. A little offense goes a long way, can't win games playing 17-13 type games in this league

The lack of offensive production over the last decade is pretty telling. Luck=truth, once he hits the ground running, I'll be waiting for the 'We should've traded the farm for Luck' threads.

[PleaseGoForTheWin]

The last good QB we had was Brad Johnson, then Snyder ruined it. I was hopeful that JC was going to be the man, was convinced that McNabb would be solid for a few years, and I truly thought that Grossman would be good enough to get us at least a few tough wins.

[Skinsinparadise]

More realistic, and probably more beneficial for the overall health of the franchise going forward.

I can go with that. Yeah we couldn't get the Rams to give up on the idea of trading away their chance at a franchise QB, and Bradford was likely more expensive and less of a talent than Luck -- but somehow its realistic that a team will trade away the pick this time? I get its fun to hope but at best it seems to me a long shot and somewhat a waste of time to zero in too much of our energy on Luck as the solution. I get the point we really really really need a franchise QB. But talking about Luck as if hey if we want the guy, that's 90% of the battle, I don't see it.

[Boss_Hogg]

Man those numbers are depressing.

[skins island connection]

Good comparison there, Homer; way to send everyone for their anti-depressants so early in the morning!
Overall numbers and decision-making in crucial times in a game is what separates these qbs from others.
Look at JC's; most of his numbers were junk yardage stats; not being able to keep drives alive, throwing ball 20 yds out of bounds, etc etc; his numbers should have an asterisk by them.
Brunnel had peaked already before coming here, and his legs were getting slower. He had the armstrength, but mobility was a big contributing factor to his career.
McNabb; yea, he threw alot of balls low, killing many many worms in the process, but when first informed of him coming here, you gotta admit, there was alot of hope riding on it, but system and qb let-downs led to his departure.
Yea, you're a "Luck" guy; but every time I hear his praises it reminds me of Ryan Leaf and his short and troubled tenure; whoever comes here, I hope it doesn't have a repeat performance...

[paloosa]

So, the murf based on you're well researched analysis we don't draft or bring in very good QB's to play for us, Is that correct? Because that is what I got out of it or maybe, just maybe we haven't really had the team or right system to work during that time because of so much change in the coaching staff. It is a known fact that Campbell had 4 different OC's in his time her which has been said is the reason he played so badly. I tend to agree to a point. When Gibbs brought in Al Saunders to run the offense there wasn't that much difference in the offense even if Gibbs made some of the calls in the game. The both came from the same coaching tree under Don Coryell so they basically ran the same type of offense. But the point is that so many changes in the organization and the team that no QB was going to be successful here. So what makes anyone here, or you for that matter, thinks that Andrew Luck is going to be any more successful than any of the other QB's that have been here? Because the scouts say that? Which scouts? are they on the Redskins staff? If they are then why aren't they doing their job? I understand who the owner is, the GM and the coach but if they don't value your opinion then it is time to move on and find someone that does or it is time that Dan Snyder gets someone whose opinion he does value. And before you say it, I am not talking about Vinny Cerrato. That would be a mistake.

[Redzone Offense]

I only wish we had started Beck since week 1. We would be where the Colts and Dolphins are

November 14th would be the Luck bowl

Wow!!

[TheLongshot]

Course, Campbell could have been the guy, if it weren't for the fact that he had to learn 4 offensive systems under 3 head coaches in his 5 years here, work behind an OL that deteriorated every year he played here, and lacked playmakers on the offensive side of the ball. I dont' know any QB who could thrive under those conditions. Amazingly enough, tho, he managed to improve despite that.

Really, tho, I do get tired of the 'QB as savior' just as I tired of 'Head coach as savior' of the past. One coach or one player isn't going to pull the team's fat out of the fire. It is going to be a good coorinated effort from the coaching staff and the FO to stick to a consistant plan for more than two years in building a team. That's something we haven't seen since Norv was fired. It may or may not be a route to greatness, but you can't even consider that until you have the foundation.

[Leonard Washington]

I appreciate the analysis but I can't rationalize giving up 4 first round picks for one guy.

[#98QBKiller]

I only wish we had started Beck since week 1. We would be where the Colts and Dolphins are

November 14th would be the Luck bowl

Haha I'm pretty much in the same boat at this point. Although losing out would've probably gotten Shanahan fired and messed up the continuity that this organization needs so badly. I just hope that if we don't make a move for Luck that we get the right guy whoever that may be.

[The Tris]

One coach or one player isn't going to pull the team's fat out of the fire. It is going to be a good coorinated effort from the coaching staff and the FO to stick to a consistant plan for more than two years in building a team.

C'mon man, this is hogwash.

The only way we fix this thing is to fire Mike Shanahan and hire a coach that I like.

[themurf]

So, the murf based on you're well researched analysis we don't draft or bring in very good QB's to play for us, Is that correct? Because that is what I got out of it or maybe, just maybe we haven't really had the team or right system to work during that time because of so much change in the coaching staff. It is a known fact that Campbell had 4 different OC's in his time her which has been said is the reason he played so badly. I tend to agree to a point. When Gibbs brought in Al Saunders to run the offense there wasn't that much difference in the offense even if Gibbs made some of the calls in the game. The both came from the same coaching tree under Don Coryell so they basically ran the same type of offense. But the point is that so many changes in the organization and the team that no QB was going to be successful here. So what makes anyone here, or you for that matter, thinks that Andrew Luck is going to be any more successful than any of the other QB's that have been here? Because the scouts say that? Which scouts? are they on the Redskins staff? If they are then why aren't they doing their job? I understand who the owner is, the GM and the coach but if they don't value your opinion then it is time to move on and find someone that does or it is time that Dan Snyder gets someone whose opinion he does value. And before you say it, I am not talking about Vinny Cerrato. That would be a mistake.

The Redskins need consistency and continuity. In order to do that, they need stability at head coach and quarterback. Having the same offensive and defensive coordinators in place for more than a year or two at a time helps as well. Chris Cooley couldn't have been more right the other day when he said it cracks him up that the same fans who hate Daniel Snyder for being impatient or the same fans who want to fire coaches and trade away everyone. That's the fantasy-football mentality that too many sports fans get stuck on. Getting Andrew Luck (or any other quarterback from the 2012 draft, for that matter) is only the start. Giving him time to develop and learn the system (and not changing the system/coordinator every other year) will go a long way towards finally moving beyond 20 years of subpar performances from football's most vital position.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 10:29 AM ----------


I appreciate the analysis but I can't rationalize giving up 4 first round picks for one guy.

Like I said, I'd be okay with Landry Jones or Robert Griffin III as Plan B.

[justice98]

I think from the eyeball test, I'd take Campbell/Brunell/Ramsey over McNabb/Beck/Grossman. Beck and Grossman combined are half a QB, so it's a no contest. The best of the McNabb/Beck/Grossman group was McNabb and he was over/under to TDs to INTs.

[The X-Factor]

It's fun to keep talking about us acquiring Luck, but I am guessing its like about a 5% chance if that we can make it happen, if we are going Qb in the draft, IMO we should be talking some also about plan B which is more realistic, Barkley, Griffin, Landry?

5% is pretty optimistic. We are simply not going to be bad enough to get the #1. The team that does get the #1 pick most likely will be unwilling to trade out of the spot. We should focus on the other QB prospects in the draft rather that chase after something that has a very low probability of occuring.

[Oldfan]

The QB position has been a disaster since Gibbs 1.

Somehow, no matter who Joe Gibbs trotted out in the 1980s, they were all effective.

Since then we have had glimpses of good QB play in the last half of 1998 and in the early part of 1999. Thats pretty much itThe line I put in bold type should tell you something...
it wasn't just about the QB in the Gibbs era... and it hasn't been just about the QB since.

John Beck and Joe Theisman are close in athletic ability. Beck looks like the better passer of the two. But Theisman had lots of help.

[GaryGreenMonk]

It may not be Luck.. but we HAVE to draft the best QB we can get our hands on.

Even if he only becomes Jason Campbell quality for awhile.. Any first round pick QB has to be better than what we are dealing with right now.

[TheLongshot]

The line I put in bold type should tell you something...
it wasn't just about the QB in the Gibbs era... and it hasn't been just about the QB since.

Agreed


John Beck and Joe Theisman are close in athletic ability. Beck looks like the better passer of the two. But Theisman had lots of help.

It is funny that Murf talks about Theismann being a great QB, when really he was only great under Gibbs.

While Theismann was the last time the QB position was truely stable, the last great QB we had was Jurgenson. Since then, we have managed to win Super Bowls with less-than-great QBs.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

moral of the story? all these QBs sucked for most of their time here, and we havent had a good QB in god knows how long. so its about time we tried our hand at finding another one.

[DCranon21]

Yeesh...those numbers are horrible. Only person who put up decent stats was JC. So Murf, if we don't get Luck, who else would you have in mind?

[themurf]

It is funny that Murf talks about Theismann being a great QB, when really he was only great under Gibbs.

I said arguably, meaning a case could be made that he's been the closest thing the Redskins have had to a franchise quarterback other than Jurgensen in the last 40 years. I, personally, don't feel he was an elite quarterback, but I'm willing to admit that he's worth considering.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 11:00 AM ----------


Yeesh...those numbers are horrible. Only person who put up decent stats was JC. So Murf, if we don't get Luck, who else would you have in mind?

Landry Jones.

[Riggo-toni]

Theismann had moments of greatness before Gibbs, but he was horribly inconsistent. The combination of maturity, experience, and Gibbs direction transformed him into a league MVP. Probably the closest comparison to his pre-Gibbs days would be Eli.

---------- Post added November-4th-2011 at 11:09 AM ----------

And for those of you dreaming of Luck, give it up already. Even if we didn't win another game this year we would still pick after Miami and Indy.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

And for those of you dreaming of Luck, give it up already. Even if we didn't win another game this year we would still pick after Miami and Indy.

i find it really funny that its inconceivable for those teams to get some luck and win 3 and for us to completely fail down the stretch and lose out. hell for all we know the broncos could end up with the #1 pick.

luck is still in play for us, we'd just have to give up a lot to get him.

[StillUnknown]

That is depressing.

[Destino]

This is the sequence of QBs from 2009 until now

Jason Campbell 2009:
16 games 327/507 64.5% 31.7att/game 3618yards 7.1avg 226.1yards/game 20td 15int 86.4rating

Donovan McNabb 2010
13 games 275/472 58.3% 36.3att/game 3,377yards 7.2avg 259.8yards/game 14TD 15int 77.1 rating

Rex Grossman 2011
5 games 92/165 55.8% 27.5att/game 1,132yards 6.9avg 188.7yards/game 6td 9int 66.5rating

Nice to see an improving situation.

[Oldfan]

I said arguably, meaning a case could be made that he's been the closest thing the Redskins have had to a franchise quarterback other than Jurgensen in the last 40 years. I, personally, don't feel he was an elite quarterback, but I'm willing to admit that he's worth considering.There are six reasons why you are willing to consider Theisman as an elite QB: Starke, Grimm, Bostic, May, Jacoby, Warren. If we had their likes now, you would be willing to consider Grossman and Beck elite.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

Ramsey took a beating playing for us and I mean a beating...I think that any possible potential he had was literally knocked out of him. As I looked back over the years,...it really is unbelievable the number of QB's I have seen start..30 total in 44 years.....and not a lot of "go to guys on the list. Depressing

Rex Grossman
John Beck
Donovan McNabb
Jason Campbell
Todd Collins
Mark Brunell
Patrick Ramsey
Tim Hasselbeck
Shane Matthews
Danny Wuerffel
Tony Banks
Jeff George
Brad Johnson
Trent Green
Gus Frerotte
Jeff Hostetler
Heath Shuler
John Friesz
Mark Rypien
Rich Gannon
Cary Conklin
Stan Humphries
Jeff Rutledge
Doug Williams
Jay Schroeder
Ed Rubbert **strike year, won 2 big games
Joe Theismann
Mike Kruczek
Billy Kilmer
Sonny J

[scruffylookin]

There are six reasons why you are willing to consider Theisman as an elite QB: Starke, Grimm, Bostic, May, Jacoby, Warren. If we had their likes now, you would be willing to consider Grossman and Beck elite.

Nonsense

Those 6 reasons are why some would consider Riggins "elite".

The first incarnation of The Hogs were not a top shelf pass protection offensive line. They got better as the years went on. They became elite when Jim Lachey became the left tackle. Your point would be more accurate with Rypien not Theismann.

You could say that Gibbs and his offensive philosophy made Theismann elite.

Theismann, once he mastered what Gibbs wanted to do, was an elite quarterback. Too bad it happened late in his career and things went south quickly and very badly in 1985 due to age prior to LT putting Joe out of his misery.

Also while the receiving corp under Gibbs got better (The Posse) and the pass protection of the oline got better, the production of the quarterback position never matched what Joe Theismann did from 82-84. Ryp had a Theismann like year in 91 and Jay had a strong year with some memorable comebacks in 86 but the suggestion that any QB succeeded under Gibbs is not accurate. Theismann was the only QB who achieved consistent elite status.

The Redskins have been searching for "the guy" since Theismann, thus by definition he in fact was our last franchise QB.

[Oldfan]

..The first incarnation of The Hogs were not a top shelf pass protection offensive line. Lachey was better than Jacoby in pass pro, but not as good in run blocking. It was the run blocking that established the play action making it easier for the QB to succeed. The original Hogs were as good or better than the group that followed.


The Redskins have been searching for "the guy" since Theismann, thus by definition he in fact was our last franchise QB.The term "franchise QB" is meaningless since everybody defines it differently. But the point you were supposed to be debating was not whether he was a franchise QB, but whether Theisman was arguably an elite QB.