Offsetting Penalties; a difference in plays or refs?

[skins island connection]

During the Dolphins debacle yesterday, something kinda threw me off, so maybe someone can clarify the explanation.
There was a play where both teams committed a foul on the same play. I forgot what was called on the Redskin's offense, maybe it was a holding call, not sure, but the call against the Dolphins was a personal foul roughing the passer. The refs said they were offsetting penalties, and the down was re-played.
Last week, a similar situation happened, and the Redskins were on offense, and the refs said by rule the personal foul un-necessary roughness on Trent would be enforced and not the defensive holding.
Am I missing something about this rule, or was it a bo-bo by the refs?

[Dirt]

I think because the foul on trent occurred after the play. It would seem they can't offset unless they happened at the same time, during the same play

---------- Post added November-14th-2011 at 10:51 PM ----------

although I'm pretty sure there was a boo boo by the refs in the game before, vs SF. I'm brain farting it so bad, I can't remember for the life of me what it was, even though I talked a lot about it

[madpatty.com]

I believe the refs messed up. It shouldn't matter that the Trent foul occurred after the play. Recall the hit on Vick during the Eagles game? The foul occurred during the play, and because it was a personal foul it trumped the intentional grounding call. Personal fouls trump other penalties regardless of whether they occurred before or after the whistle. They should have given us the call, they shouldn't have offset.

[GoDeep81]

I "think" the announcers also said something to the effect (last week, not this) that the personal foul HAD to be addressed or inforced?? Dirt probably has it right, but the impression I got from the commentating, was when a PF occurs (on only 1 team) it "must" be enforced? Either way, the refs were hookie again yesterday.. Calling ticktack stuff one minute, then letting obvious PI go the next.. Home teams seem to get alot of breaks, unless your playing @ Fedex..

[Dirt]

oh, It was the Bills game and the ref INCORRECTLY did not give them a 10 second runoff on a penalty that should have sent the game to halftime, because of a rule that was changed a few years ago, which the ref must not have realized.

---------- Post added November-14th-2011 at 11:03 PM ----------


I believe the refs messed up. It shouldn't matter that the Trent foul occurred after the play. Recall the hit on Vick during the Eagles game? The foul occurred during the play, and because it was a personal foul it trumped the intentional grounding call. Personal fouls trump other penalties regardless of whether they occurred before or after the whistle. They should have given us the call, they shouldn't have offset.

But they never called intentional grounding. There was no flag for it, the flag was for the hit. There certainly should have been grounding, but they just decided not to call it. maybe in those circumstances, they're not allowed to 'go back in time and also call grounding' if they've already issued a personal foul.

[DC9]

I believe the refs messed up. It shouldn't matter that the Trent foul occurred after the play. Recall the hit on Vick during the Eagles game? The foul occurred during the play, and because it was a personal foul it trumped the intentional grounding call. Personal fouls trump other penalties regardless of whether they occurred before or after the whistle. They should have given us the call, they shouldn't have offset.

There was no intentional grounding called on that play.... at all. It was just a PF on Orakpo for leading with the helmet.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Good thread. I was wondering the same thing.

[DC9]

oh, It was the Bills game and the ref INCORRECTLY did not give them a 10 second runoff on a penalty that should have sent the game to halftime, because of a rule that was changed a few years ago, which the ref must not have realized.[COLOR="Gold"]

The ref addressed the reason as to why there would be no 10 second run off, but it escapes me at the moment.

[Hitman21ST]

Yes. I made note of it during the gameday thread. When there is a personal foul penalty, the rule (at least last week) was that the personal foul had to be enforced. Then this last game the exact same situation happened, only the personal foul was against us, and they're "offsetting." Complete and utter bull****.

and Dirt, the Bills game was a different scenario, but a debacle of a call nonetheless. It was ridiculous that there wasn't the runoff, and as a result of no runoff, the Bills got to kick a field goal.

[texasthunder]

I too wondered the same thing.

And in regard to the Vick situation, I sent a message to Mike Piera, former head of officials and now with Fox, but never got an answer.
Maybe somebody can ask him about yesterdays blown call.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/page/Mike-Pereira-FOX-NFL-Rules-Analyst

I was under the impression that a personel foul trumped all other fouls with the exception of off setting personel fouls.

[Dirt]

The ref addressed the reason as to why there would be no 10 second run off, but it escapes me at the moment.

I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was silly, like he was rambling. What he was probably thinking, and meant to say was "since the team that committed the penalty currently has the lead or is tied, and the penalty happened within two minutes, there is no 10 second runoff." This was true before 2007, but the rule was changed after that season.

here is the rule:
Two-minute warning/10-second runoff: The requirement that the offense has to be behind in the score or the
score has to be tied for a 10-second clock runoff to be exercised against the offense for an excess timeout with two
minutes to go in the first half or in the game has been eliminated. Now a 10-second runoff will take place no matter what
the game situation. Any possible advantage for the offense (e.g., the old rule would not require a 10-second runoff if it
were ahead) has been eliminated. The defense has the option to decline a 10-second runoff (which will give it more time
should it get the ball back).

---------- Post added November-15th-2011 at 12:06 AM ----------

ok here we go

"When a "double foul" occurs, when both teams commit a foul during a play, regardless of severity, the fouls are usually offset and the down is replayed. However the two fouls must be committed in the same time frame. For instance, two fouls during the active play can offset, but a foul during the play and a personal foul after the whistle may not. Two personal fouls after the play can offset, although this is not often called. In the NFL, a major (15 yard) penalty by one team may not offset a minor (5 yard) penalty by the other team."

So yea Trent did his thing after the whistle. I still say it's bogus because if it did in fact happen after the whistle, then it had nothing to do with the penalty that happened during play, but it erases the penalty during play from existence. If anything, they ought to just enforce both of them in that situation.

[skinzplay]

Anytime there's a 5-yarder and a 15-yarder called against both teams, the 15-yard penalty supercedes the 5-yard penalty. It doesn't matter if it was live or if it occurred in a dead-ball situation. Defensive holding is a 5-yard penalty, so it was superceded by the personal foul committed by Trent Williams. The application of the rule was correct.

[Dirt]

oh but wait a minute..it says a major penalty cannot offset a minor one. So... we need to remember what was called against the Redskins during that play. That paragraph doesn't make it clear whether or not holding (10 yards) is considered a 'minor penalty', but I would think so. In fact, I think the only 5yd penalty possible to commit on offense is offsides, which rarely happens.

I love this stuff

[skins island connection]

It was somewhat confusing to me.
When the play happened, the first thing that popped in my mind was "cool, we're gonna get the 15 yards and a 1st down", but then the ref said the penalties offset; I kinds sat there dumbfounded for a minute, then figured there must be some strange situation that I don't know of regarding the rules, but then it still didn't sit well with me.
Practically every dual foul situation i've seen in football ended up the team committing the foul got the 15 yds tacked on them; I was on the understanding a dead ball foul and personal foul were on the same level not subjected to any other penalties, being we've seen a defense commit 2 fouls such as PI and Unsportsmanlike conduct and both were tacked on.

[DixieFlatline]

The ref addressed the reason as to why there would be no 10 second run off, but it escapes me at the moment.

Didn't he say since the penalty didn't stop the clock there would be no runoff?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

15 and 5 yard penalties do not offset.

For example if the defense is off-sides but the offense commits a chop block, the 5 yarder gets thrown out and the 15 yarder gets enforced.

15 and 10 yarders and 15 and 15 yarders offset. As do 5 and 10 yarders.

I have no idea what play you are talking about but I hope that helps.

[Veretax]

I believe the PF on Trent was enforced because it was a Dead Ball Foul. Whistle was over, and they were between plays?