SOW| Playing Devil's Advocate: Are the Redskins Too Eager to Trade to Number 2?

[rd421]

http://thesonofwashington.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/r20al4z.jpg

The Washington Redskins are in a rebuild, whether they find their franchise quarterback this year or not. So when rumors afloat about them willing to give up their first, second and third this year, as well as an additional first next year, I wonder, what exactly are they thinking?

Robert Griffin III is without a doubt an exceptional talent, but does that mean you add-on another year or two of rebuilding, risk the future of the franchise and your job, all for one player? A player who has already suffered a partial tear to his ACL? A player who shined one season in a simplified offense?

I cannot stress how important it is that the Redskins think wisely as to what they want, as well as how much they are willing to give up. At this moment, if Robert Griffin III fails, which he very well could, the Redskins are going to be right back in the hole they started to dig themselves out of. On the other hand, if he pans out, the Redskins will finally have their franchise QB, a very dangerous one at that.

I’m not saying RGIII isn’t worth trading up for, he is, but I believe the asking price, at least right now, is way too high.

Continue Reading Here (http://sonofwashington.com/2012/02/28/redskins-willing-to-give-up-too-much-for-rgiii/)

[bowhunter]

Agreed. The man looks to hold great promise and is worth trading up to get, but not for the picks that have been bantered about.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

I would say this...if we cant get RGIII or Luck i wouldn't draft any other QB in this draft. Tannehill will need to be drafted if we want him at 6. He's not going to be there in the 2nd or late 1st. If we can't get RGIII or Luck well i guess we just go into the season with Orton or whoever we bring in. No other guy is worth a pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. The way i look at it, if we are going to go after a 1st round talent next year (which we should if we cant get one of the top 2 this year) why waste a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year.

I dont want to, but if the price is too much, sign Orton or another FA QB and use all of our picks or trade back in the early to late 20's and pick up another 1st rounder for next year. I dont want to do this. I want RGIII or Luck but if we dont get one of them i dont want to waste a pick on a QB. Just my thoughts.

And IMO anyhing more than two 1sts and and a 2nd seems too high.

[jeronimobrat]

Everyone is going to feel differently about this...

Do you want to wait another 10 yrs. for a once in a lifetime talent behind center or would you rather gamble for it this yr. while we have the luxury to do so.

You don't hear the Giants complaining now, do you?

BTW, what many are failing to realize is that we will still have FA to fulfill our roster needs as well.

[Harwich Hog]

I like to look at it from the perspective of the development of the other picks we don't trade and indeed future picks.

I don't think there is any doubt that if an offence has an elite quarterback, it raises the performance of every player on that offence. Wide receivers become better catchers, linemen becoming better blockers and running backs get more yards. You're talking about cumulative improvement of the roster. If we choose not to trade for Robert Griffin and instead use the picks to better supplement the roster - we will have a better roster come September 2012, I admit. But if you take into account the improvement in the performance of the team if that roster had a franchise quarterback, then that might not be the case come September 2013. And certainly not the case by September 2014.

I'm not saying that Robert Griffin is elite necessarily but that's what's at stake here. That's why - to me - it's absolutely worth the risk.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Everyone is going to feel differently about this...

Do you want to wait another 10 yrs. for a once in a lifetime talent behind center or would you rather gamble for it this yr. while we have the luxury to do so.

You don't hear the Giants complaining now, do you?

BTW, what many are failing to realize is that we will still have FA to fulfill our roster needs as well.

Giants traded a 1st and a 3rd. Not 4-5 picks as some are saying around here. Big diff

[Harwich Hog]

Giants traded a 1st and a 3rd. Not 4-5 picks as some are saying around here. Big diff

A first, a third and Philip Rivers who was selected with the fourth pick the same year.

So they effectively traded two first round picks and a third to move up from #4 to #1. We're moving from #6 to #2. Technically one more spot, but slightly less according to the trade value chart.

Important to consider though that St. Louis Rams aren't in the position to be bullied like San Diego were. San Diego had picked a player that didn't want to play for them. They had much less room to manoeuvre and still managed to get a very decent haul of players/draft picks.

[storretti]

We had a really good draft class last year. We also have a lot of cap space to spend on FA. If Mike Shanahan believes that RG3 is worth the picks, then I am going to trust him. I just hope that we can get RG3 with the price that Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan believe's is acceptable. No matter how much they or us as fans might want RG3, I don't think they are going to cripple the franchise for him. Like I said, I do trust the guys making the decisions.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

A first, a third and Philip Rivers who was selected with the fourth pick the same year.

So they effectively traded two first round picks and a third to move up with #4 to #1.

And i was just looking it up they also traded a 5th i believe. But i think if we offered 2 1sts and a 2nd. Thats a fair deal. If they wanted another late rounder like a 5th or something i would be ok with that. But there has to be a breaking point. We cant go into it thinking whatever it takes or we will end up looking like idiots. Idiots with a hopefully really good QB with no real young talent around him. To me the breaking point is asking for more than 2 1st and a 2nd. If they want next years 2nd i would walk away and try again. And if the Browns get Flynn the price is going to go down.

[Redskins4ever]

Look at what the NYG gave up to get Eli Manning. Two Super Bowl championships later, I'd say that was a very good trade. The Redskins could very well be wise and allow nature to take its course by sitting tight at #6 and allowing RG3 to fall to us. Or if Rg3 is taken by Cleveland matter of factly, then the Redskins can still draft Ryan Tannehill or trade back.

[HigSkin]

Problem with Giants/Chargers trade vs this years trade comparison values is the lower rookie cap. A team isn't going to be strapped with less picks and a huge cap hit now.

@adbrandt
Andrew Brandt
Draft trade chart flawed with new CBA. Top picks are same quality player at half the price, lesser cost brings higher value.

I would prefer they swap 1st's, give the 2nd and keep our 3rd offering the extra 4th this year and 1st/ 4th next year. Spread the impact over 2 drafts and have picks in 3-7 rounds this year. Let's face it, we've still got to sign Davis, Fletch, Adam, Gano, Lich, Smith and a few others along with FA OL, WR that's all gonna eat up cap quickly.

If the FO doesn't get this right, we're gonna suck again this year regardless of who plays QB.

[LD0506]

And i was just looking it up they also traded a 5th i believe. But i think if we offered 2 1sts and a 2nd. Thats a fair deal. If they wanted another late rounder like a 5th or something i would be ok with that. But there has to be a breaking point. We cant go into it thinking whatever it takes or we will end up looking like idiots. Idiots with a hopefully really good QB with no real young talent around him. To me the breaking point is asking for more than 2 1st and a 2nd. If they want next years 2nd i would walk away and try again. And if the Browns get Flynn the price is going to go down.

See, this is kinda my feeling on this. We can make an awfully valuable offer to Fisher but there is a point where it crosses over into insanity. The Skins will not disappear if we don't land Griffin, work FA and add talent now and position yourself to make another move next year. RGIII is not the end all and be all of pro football.

[Harwich Hog]

See, this is kinda my feeling on this. We can make an awfully valuable offer to Fisher but there is a point where it crosses over into insanity. The Skins will not disappear if we don't land Griffin, work FA and add talent now and position yourself to make another move next year. RGIII is not the end all and be all of pro football.

True. I think there is a great trade line and an awful trade line and a vaste swathe of territory in between that I feel would be acceptable. I have a good idea where the great trade line is but absolutely no idea what I feel constitutes an awful trade.

I guess it will come down to ultimately what gets paid for him. If another team makes a trade and beats us by offering something I wouldn't feel comfortable with us parting with - I don't think I will be too upset and would embrace Tannehill or Weeden.

[skins2323]

I would offer them (2012) 1st, 3rd, 4th (2013) 1st, Conditional 3rd. (if the 1st rounder is a top 10 pick then the additional pick is cancelled, 10-20 then its a 4th, above 20th pick then you get the 3rd) Is that enough? You could always throw the Rams a WR like Jabar Gaffney too just to "sweeten" the deal.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I think the people who keep harping on the whole "WE'RE GIVING AWAY PICKS LIKE VINNY" point fail to miss that while we DID have less picks than everyone else, we also failed to hit on the picks we did have. We had 10+ picks 2 times or more in the Vinny era. Out of those drafts, we got Ladell Betts, Fred Davis, and after that a whole lot of nothing. Had we hit on our 4-7 picks the way the Giants or Eagles (Trent Cole 5th round, Todd Herremans 4th round, Brent Celek 5th round to name a few) or Steelers (Antonio Brown 6th round, Chris Kemoeatu 6th round, William Gay 5th round, Ike Taylor 4th round, Brett Keisel 7th round, Aaron Smith 4th round, etc), and Patriots (Obviously Brady 6th round, but Hernandez 4th round, Edelman 7th round, Samuel 4th round, Koppen 5th round, Jarvis Green 4th round, Tully-Banta Cain 7th round)

The point is that the difference between now and then is NOT just the number of picks we have, but what we do with them. At minimum, we got 4 keepers in the last 2 drafts after round 3 - Riley, Helu, Royster and Neild. Hurt looks like solid depth at the minimum.

As long as we can draft well, then the impact of losing a lot of picks will be minimized.

[TheGreek1973]

I would say this...if we cant get RGIII or Luck i wouldn't draft any other QB in this draft. Tannehill will need to be drafted if we want him at 6. He's not going to be there in the 2nd or late 1st. If we can't get RGIII or Luck well i guess we just go into the season with Orton or whoever we bring in. No other guy is worth a pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. The way i look at it, if we are going to go after a 1st round talent next year (which we should if we cant get one of the top 2 this year) why waste a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year.

I dont want to, but if the price is too much, sign Orton or another FA QB and use all of our picks or trade back in the early to late 20's and pick up another 1st rounder for next year. I dont want to do this. I want RGIII or Luck but if we dont get one of them i dont want to waste a pick on a QB. Just my thoughts.

And IMO anyhing more than two 1sts and and a 2nd seems too high.

I agree with this. IF we don't get RGIII and can't trade back, we can't pick any of the remaining QBs at 6. I would trade back for picks next year, this way we have two #1s to go after the top QB. However if a prospect is there in the 4th or 5th round then why not? lets take a chance.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

See, this is kinda my feeling on this. We can make an awfully valuable offer to Fisher but there is a point where it crosses over into insanity. The Skins will not disappear if we don't land Griffin, work FA and add talent now and position yourself to make another move next year. RGIII is not the end all and be all of pro football.

Yea, im starting to feel like we are going to way overpay for the guy. I like him a lot and really want him on our team but i want to be smart about getting him. Yea, im sure the Giants are happy they have Eli but im pretty sure they would be pretty happy with Rivers right now also. Both of those teams needed a QB so a deal was put in place. I wouldn't say either team gave up too much or got too little. In our case with the Rams they know we need a QB.They can charge us more. And thats where when we reach a point we need to walk away.

[TheGreek1973]

Look at what the NYG gave up to get Eli Manning. Two Super Bowl championships later, I'd say that was a very good trade. The Redskins could very well be wise and allow nature to take its course by sitting tight at #6 and allowing RG3 to fall to us. Or if Rg3 is taken by Cleveland matter of factly, then the Redskins can still draft Ryan Tannehill or trade back.

yea but to say that Eli was the one responsible for those two SB victories is a HUGE reach. The Giants won both times against NE because of their D, particular pass rush. They were able to go toe to toe with one of the greatest QBs ever. Eli played well don't get me wrong but the Giants don't even make the playoffs if that DL is not there.

[Califan007]

A first, a third and Philip Rivers who was selected with the fourth pick the same year.

So they effectively traded two first round picks and a third to move up from #4 to #1. We're moving from #6 to #2. Technically one more spot, but slightly less according to the trade value chart.

Important to consider though that St. Louis Rams aren't in the position to be bullied like San Diego were. San Diego had picked a player that didn't want to play for them. They had much less room to manoeuvre and still managed to get a very decent haul of players/draft picks.

Also important to remember is that the Giants didn't have to leapfrog over another team who wanted the same player and had more to offer up than they did.

My take on things is that if you find your franchise QB, it's damn near impossible to "overpay" for him. If RG3 turns out to be that bona fide franchise QB, it will pay huge dividends in numerous ways for years to come. So if they DO offer a lot of picks to trade up, it better be because Shanahan and Allen did their due diligence and found very little to doubt..and not because they got caught up in the hype. I trust that it will be due to the former and not the latter. I was never sure with Vinny...

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Can i ask..what do people think is the breaking point or too much to move up? Or is there one?

[newday]

We're probably not going to have a top 5 draft pick assigned to us while Shanny is here. The team is good enough on defense to avoid that. So if we want a high caliber QB, and drafting our own is the best strategy then we have to move up.

How much we pay to move up is going to dictated by i) points table; ii) competition from other teams. We're not in control of either. We don't have a choice but to mortgage the future on a QB pick. Every team does it with their top draft choices. They put a buncha money into the contracts and invest heavily in the top guy.

Now our situation is a bit unique in that we have so many holes, we need more quantity than quality across the whole team. Having an A+ QB matters, but having a B+ CB or B+ Safety is still ok. So we can either go all out to get a QB and take that big risk, leaving a lot of holes unfilled till next year. Or fill in the other holes and trade up for another big time QB next year.

Just like there's no guarantee that a QB will be any good, there's no guarantee that we can trade up in future years. The teams ahead of us may needs badly too. Worse than this year. So all put together, seems like we have to make the trade. Not at all costs, of course. A high-quantity draft will still help the team a LOT. But if the opportunity presents itself, it's too rare a situation to give up.

It's going to cost us big time either way. Unless of course, a lower round QB ends up lighting it up. But that's really stretching the odds now.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Giants traded a 1st and a 3rd. Not 4-5 picks as some are saying around here. Big diff

The reason for that IMO is the rookie salary cap.

You get RGIII for roughly 6 million a year for 4 years before you have to cough up big money.

[Califan007]

yea but to say that Eli was the one responsible for those two SB victories is a HUGE reach. The Giants won both times against NE because of their D, particular pass rush. They were able to go toe to toe with one of the greatest QBs ever. Eli played well don't get me wrong but the Giants don't even make the playoffs if that DL is not there.

In those two SB runs, Eli's numbers were:

63% completion rate
15 TDs
2 INTs

I'm sorry, but I'm through pretending that Manning's performance on the field played only a small role in their Super Bowl runs...he didn't put the team on his back but he did contribute largely to the wins.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 06:15 AM ----------


Can i ask..what do people think is the breaking point or too much to move up? Or is there one?

There's always a breaking point :yes:...

Giving up an entire draft would be insane, for instance.

[LightningBuggs]

Given that RGIII hasn't even had his pro day yet, I'd hope that the Skins aren't really offering deals to the Rams already. There seems to be a big rush for something that's not gonna happen for 2 more months (i.e. the draft).

[S.T.real,lights,out]

There's always a breaking point :yes:...

Giving up an entire draft would be insane, for instance.

Damn, i was waiting for someone to say there isn't one so i could ask them if they would do a Ricky Williams trade. :ols:

[GWinSkins83]

What people have to understand is we just had a 12 player draft with 11 of those picks ended up on the final 53 roster. 4 or 5 picks year before. Mike brought in his FA's first and second year. He got like 10 or 12 holdovers from different regimes. So 41 or the players on this roster was hand picked from Mike. Next Most of the great players on our team are young. Now to the real kicker here is that the new CBA requires teams to spend most of the cap. You can't possibly spend 120 million on more than half the roster on their rookie contracts. Just not possible. But thats what people around are suggesting is to try and keep every little pick we have. We have 18 picks over the next 2 years. With the 12 we got last year. People are suggesting atleast 28 of the 53 players on the roster be from those draft which would have us way under the cap. Also people don't want to get high price FAs. But the money have to go somewhere. Might as well go to for the QB with the most talent and then fill the rest of the cap space with young talented FAs.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

What people have to understand is we just had a 12 player draft with 11 of those picks ended up on the final 53 roster. 4 or 5 picks year before. Mike brought in his FA's first and second year. He got like 10 or 12 holdovers from different regimes. So 41 or the players on this roster was hand picked from Mike. Next Most of the great players on our team are young. Now to the real kicker here is that the new CBA requires teams to spend most of the cap. You can't possibly spend 120 million on more than half the roster on their rookie contracts. Just not possible. But thats what people around are suggesting is to try and keep every little pick we have. We have 18 picks over the next 2 years. With the 12 we got last year. People are suggesting atleast 28 of the 53 players on the roster be from those draft which would have us way under the cap. Also people don't want to get high price FAs. But the money have to go somewhere. Might as well go to for the QB with the most talent and then fill the rest of the cap space with young talented FAs.

I think they have to spend 90-95% of the cap. However that doesn't include what was brought over from last year. IDK how much we brought over but its not like we have to spend $50mil this season

[Califan007]

Given that RGIII hasn't even had his pro day yet, I'd hope that the Skins aren't really offering deals to the Rams already. There seems to be a big rush for something that's not gonna happen for 2 more months (i.e. the draft).
do you think Griffin is really going to do anything at his Pro day that will lower his value, especially in terms of draft picks?

[GWinSkins83]

I think they have to spend 90-95% of the cap. However that doesn't include what was brought over from last year. IDK how much we brought over but its not like we have to spend $50mil this season

Yeah but next we will have to. And how people want it here is to have 30 players on this roster with rookie contracts. Thats not going to be 60% of the cap. We also got to bring into the equation that the cap is going to increase alot in 2013 when the TV deals kick in. We would probably see a 130 to 140 cap. With 30 rookie contracts on the roster thats not going to be alot. My point is we are not going to be able to keep those picks. That is weird to say but that is the way it is.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Yeah but next we will have to. And how people want it here is to have 30 players on this roster with rookie contracts. Thats not going to be 60% of the cap. We also got to bring into the equation that the cap is going to increase alot in 2013 when the TV deals kick in. We would probably see a 130 to 140 cap. With 30 rookie contracts on the roster thats not going to be alot. My point is we are not going to be able to keep those picks. That is weird to say but that is the way it is.

Well obviously they aren't going to keep all the picks they make however 90% of the time the picks that dont make the team are the ones that are used in the 5-7 rounds not the 1-3 like we are going to have to give up. Yes, we were very lucky that we found Helu and Royster late in the draft but im not ready to throw away early picks b/c we found guys who can be pretty good players last year.

[RiggosMohawk]

Given that RGIII hasn't even had his pro day yet, I'd hope that the Skins aren't really offering deals to the Rams already. There seems to be a big rush for something that's not gonna happen for 2 more months (i.e. the draft).

I'd never hinge my draft decision on a Pro Day outing. I would only use that and the Combine to confirm what I've seen on game tape already.

These two shows are only good for showing off a QB's skillset and nothing more.

[jeronimobrat]

What people have to understand is we just had a 12 player draft with 11 of those picks ended up on the final 53 roster. 4 or 5 picks year before. Mike brought in his FA's first and second year. He got like 10 or 12 holdovers from different regimes. So 41 or the players on this roster was hand picked from Mike. Next Most of the great players on our team are young. Now to the real kicker here is that the new CBA requires teams to spend most of the cap. You can't possibly spend 120 million on more than half the roster on their rookie contracts. Just not possible. But thats what people around are suggesting is to try and keep every little pick we have. We have 18 picks over the next 2 years. With the 12 we got last year. People are suggesting atleast 28 of the 53 players on the roster be from those draft which would have us way under the cap. Also people don't want to get high price FAs. But the money have to go somewhere. Might as well go to for the QB with the most talent and then fill the rest of the cap space with young talented FAs.

Somebody gets it.

[TheGreek1973]

In those two SB runs, Eli's numbers were:

63% completion rate
15 TDs
2 INTs

I'm sorry, but I'm through pretending that Manning's performance on the field played only a small role in their Super Bowl runs...he didn't put the team on his back but he did contribute largely to the wins.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 06:15 AM ----------



There's always a breaking point :yes:...

Giving up an entire draft would be insane, for instance.

I never said he didn't contribute but some folks in here make it sound he single handed won the SBs.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Pro Days are useless imo. In fact, in many cases they can be WORSE than useless. See Russell, JaMarcus.

Also, Eli Manning is above-average in a lot of areas, but he is special in 2 areas - clutch play and dealing with pressure. I think most QBs in the NFL get sacked on that pass to Tyree. I think a lot of QBs simply don't make the pass to Manningham.

[skinzwiz]

I never said he didn't contribute but some folks in here make it sound he single handed won the SBs.

QB contributions are always overrated man.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 09:56 AM ----------


Pro Days are useless imo. In fact, in many cases they can be WORSE than useless. See Russell, JaMarcus.

lol

[GWinSkins83]

Well obviously they aren't going to keep all the picks they make however 90% of the time the picks that dont make the team are the ones that are used in the 5-7 rounds not the 1-3 like we are going to have to give up. Yes, we were very lucky that we found Helu and Royster late in the draft but im not ready to throw away early picks b/c we found guys who can be pretty good players last year.

Even the 2nd and 3rd round guys aren't making 2 or 3 million dollars a year. Our starting QB is not evening going to make but 8 mill a year and that's probably being generous. We don't have a DT making more than 6 milion a year. No CB is making 10 million a year. No RB making more than 2 or 3 million a year. No WR making 8 million a year. Where is that money going to go to? FA thats where we are going to fill the cap at. Couple of FAs are going to be substitued for those picks traded away. 4 extra FAs are going to be signed.

[Missouri_Skins_Fan]

Not sure if this is possible, but if the Redskins made a trade pretty soon.

I would just ask RG3 to cancel his Pro Day.
No reason to have it, if we are going to draft him anyways.

Also, keeps the Colts from thinking twice about the 2 QB's, if there was even a remote chance anyways of considering RG3.

Canceling the pro day, would ice it for us and Lock him in @#2 for us.
That's what I would do, if i were Snyder, Shanny, Allen.

[GWinSkins83]

Well obviously they aren't going to keep all the picks they make however 90% of the time the picks that dont make the team are the ones that are used in the 5-7 rounds not the 1-3 like we are going to have to give up. Yes, we were very lucky that we found Helu and Royster late in the draft but im not ready to throw away early picks b/c we found guys who can be pretty good players last year.

Its not that its those 2nd and 3rd picks are not going to fill the cap either. So you subtract those picks and add FAs and that helps you get closer to the cap spending min.

[rambler01]

http://thesonofwashington.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/r20al4z.jpg

The Washington Redskins are in a rebuild, whether they find their franchise quarterback this year or not. So when rumors afloat about them willing to give up their first, second and third this year, as well as an additional first next year, I wonder, what exactly are they thinking?

Robert Griffin III is without a doubt an exceptional talent, but does that mean you add-on another year or two of rebuilding, risk the future of the franchise and your job, all for one player? A player who has already suffered a partial tear to his ACL? A player who shined one season in a simplified offense?

I cannot stress how important it is that the Redskins think wisely as to what they want, as well as how much they are willing to give up. At this moment, if Robert Griffin III fails, which he very well could, the Redskins are going to be right back in the hole they started to dig themselves out of. On the other hand, if he pans out, the Redskins will finally have their franchise QB, a very dangerous one at that.

I’m not saying RGIII isn’t worth trading up for, he is, but I believe the asking price, at least right now, is way too high.

Continue Reading Here (http://sonofwashington.com/2012/02/28/redskins-willing-to-give-up-too-much-for-rgiii/)

You know, I'm really glad someone wrote this article because the love affair for Griffin III is getting unbearable around here. And make no mistake, I'd love to have the kid here making plays for us; however (and say what you want about it), I'm not willing to go "All In" for him.

Swapped 1's and a 2nd, 3rd, 1st for Griffin III is essentially 4 NFL starters that would improve a team in rebuilding. Are we REALLY in a position to trade 4 NFL starters for one Griffin III? Yes yes, I hear the battle cry for a "Franchise" signal caller. But you know what, this article is playing Devil's Advocate for a reason......to make us ask the "what if" questions before we trade the house (4 NFL Starters), for this one kid.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Even the 2nd and 3rd round guys aren't making 2 or 3 million dollars a year. Our starting QB is not evening going to make but 8 mill a year and that's probably being generous. We don't have a DT making more than 6 milion a year. No CB is making 10 million a year. No RB making more than 2 or 3 million a year. No WR making 8 million a year. Where is that money going to go to? FA thats where we are going to fill the cap at. Couple of FAs are going to be substitued for those picks traded away. 4 extra FAs are going to be signed.

I agree with u. The money is going to prob go to a FA WR, DB and prob OL. Plus we have a lot of our own guy that we need to bring back. When that time comes Rak is gonna cost a lot to bring back as well as guys like Trent and Davis. The sad thing is right now those are prob our only young guys worth the money.

And i dont really disagree with you. But i dont think we will have any problem meeting the min cap. We will bring in FA and we have a lot of our own guys that will take up cap space.

[DiscoBob]

They have a bunch of cap space this year, so they supplement a weak draft with FAs this year more than other years. I'm OK with gutting the 2012 draft (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) but I don't want to give up next years #1 or #2....

[skinzwiz]

I don't understand why this years 1st and 2nd alone are not enough to move up 4 spots. I say force another team to trade the house to the rams...I think all this hype to trade up may be a bluff. I think Cleveland REALLY wants Blackmon. Any other team to trade up would have to give up much more. I think it's all a bluff right now.

[Darkstarr]

Not sure if this is possible, but if the Redskins made a trade pretty soon.

I would just ask RG3 to cancel his Pro Day.
No reason to have it, if we are going to draft him anyways.

Also, keeps the Colts from thinking twice about the 2 QB's, if there was even a remote chance anyways of considering RG3.

Canceling the pro day, would ice it for us and Lock him in @#2 for us.
That's what I would do, if i were Snyder, Shanny, Allen.

Griff's pro day is also to get fellow Baylor players to get looked at so he would never cancel it. Also if by some crazy miricle the Colts decided to take RG3, the price for that #2 spot would go up even more since most if not everyone considers Luck the better prospect.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Griff's pro day is also to get fellow Baylor players to get looked at so he would never cancel it. Also if by some crazy miricle the Colts decided to take RG3, the price for that #2 spot would go up even more since most if not everyone considers Luck the better prospect.

:ols:

if we trade to 2 before hand i would do everything in my power to showoff RGIII. Hope another team trades even more than us for the 1 spot and we get Luck. I would be very happy if that were to happen.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

If you're so sold on a guy that you're willing to give up :

#6 overall (swap picks)
2nd round this year
3rd round this year
1st round next year


Then why the hell does adding one more pick stop you? I'm just saying, if they've evaluated RG3 to the point where they think he's worth 4 draft picks, why wouldn't he be worth 5 draft picks?

[HigSkin]

I think they have to spend 90-95% of the cap. However that doesn't include what was brought over from last year. IDK how much we brought over but its not like we have to spend $50mil this season

Somewhere in the $13.6 mil range from last years carry-over to officially submit before FA. That $50 is more likely in the $47 range but here's the conundrum to FA.

Davis - Tagging at $5.4 2012
Fletch - 4 yr $25 somewhere in the $5 mil cap hit 2012
Carriker - 4 yr $14 mil somewhere in the $3 mil cap hit 2012
Lich - $1.3 mil 2012
Monty - $1.4 mil 2012
Gano - $500k 2012

~$5 mil for rookie set aside + something for #2 pick (assuming $6 mil per)

This is where it gets interesting -

Royal won't be hard (3 yr - $10mil) but if we want an elite WR, Garcon just turned down a 5 yr $35 mil and VJax (~$50 mil total - $6 mil cap hit) is gonna be in demand.

A decent OL guy is gonna be in the 5 yr - $25 mil range ($4 mil cap hit) and we need a couple of them.

This is just a rough estimate but point is those cap dollars are going to get eaten up quickly and we'll easily get to 90%.

[War Paint]

This is the year we get the franchise QB. Not next year, this year. Rebuilding without a QB to build around is stupid. I really wish people would quit acting like we are throwing picks away for a player of little impact. An elite QB turns an average team into a contender. Period. I'd rather trade 3 or 4 picks for RGIII instead of having 3 or 4 players and a turd at QB. Right now we have an elite prospect within our grasp. If we don't pull the trigger, we deserve to suck for another decade due to our stupidity. People need to get with the program.

[SWFLSkins]

rd, great job, your on a roll, but you left one word out of your title.

Playing Devil's Advocate: Are the Redskins (FANS) Too Eager to Trade to Number 2?

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Somewhere in the $13.6 mil range from last years carry-over to officially submit before FA. That $50 is more likely in the $47 range but here's the conundrum to FA.

Davis - Tagging at $5.4 2012
Fletch - 4 yr $25 somewhere in the $5 mil cap hit 2012
Carriker - 4 yr $14 mil somewhere in the $3 mil cap hit 2012
Lich - $1.3 mil 2012
Monty - $1.4 mil 2012
Gano - $500k 2012

~$5 mil for rookie set aside + something for #2 pick (assuming $6 mil per)

This is where it gets interesting -

Royal won't be hard (3 yr - $10mil) but if we want an elite WR, Garcon just turned down a 5 yr $35 mil and VJax (~$50 mil total - $6 mil cap hit) is gonna be in demand.

A decent OL guy is gonna be in the 5 yr - $25 mil range ($4 mil cap hit) and we need a couple of them.

This is just a rough estimate but point is those cap dollars are going to get eaten up quickly.

Thank you. That $47 is going to go quick. And you didn't even mention what a CB is gonna cost or someone to replace LL

[RiggosMohawk]

This sentiment was echoed in December and January by enough people that it stuck with me. Time to pull it out again.

Redskins fans might be less gung-ho about going all in on a rookie QB, but Mike and Bruce can't be. They're in year 3, and they won't make it past year 5 unless the QB situation is solved NOW. They really can't think about next year's draft, because next year's draft will be meaningless to this front office if the long-term solution at QB is not on our roster come week 1 of the 2012 season. We don't get "our guy" from this offseason, Mike is a dead man walking so to speak.

That leaves our options as RG3 or Peyton... or both?!? Talk about mass mass hysteria. They would just have to remove the dns entry, and let all the Redskins crazies loose over the interwebz.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If the Redskins had good QB play last year, they would have been competing for a playoff spot. We are essentially the same team as Dallas except they have a competent NFL QB and we do not.

[GWinSkins83]

You know, I'm really glad someone wrote this article because the love affair for Griffin III is getting unbearable around here. And make no mistake, I'd love to have the kid here making plays for us; however (and say what you want about it), I'm not willing to go "All In" for him.

Swapped 1's and a 2nd, 3rd, 1st for Griffin III is essentially 4 NFL starters that would improve a team in rebuilding. Are we REALLY in a position to trade 4 NFL starters for one Griffin III? Yes yes, I hear the battle cry for a "Franchise" signal caller. But you know what, this article is playing Devil's Advocate for a reason......to make us ask the "what if" questions before we trade the house (4 NFL Starters), for this one kid.

You can add 3 extra starters in FA to make up for those 3 picks. You like to bring up those picks but one we don't know if those picks make it to starters and also if you don't know already we have to spend money and those picks arent going to help us get to the min cap we have to spend. This is where it is worth it to trade up. Devil will do anything to bring you down even bring up some good points but also leave out negatives to the points too. Which is why this title to the article is perfect.

[Darkstarr]

This is the year we get the franchise QB. Not next year, this year. Rebuilding without a QB to build around is stupid. I really wish people would quit acting like we are throwing picks away for a player of little impact. An elite QB turns an average team into a contender. Period. I'd rather trade 3 or 4 picks for RGIII instead of having 3 or 4 players and a turd at QB. Right now we have an elite prospect within our grasp. If we don't pull the trigger, we deserve to suck for another decade due to our stupidity. People need to get with the program.

I would love to see RG3 here also, but there has to be a price that is to high. From a pick perspective, would u rather have RG3 or T. Williams, R. Kerrigan, P. Rilley, R. Helu, J. Jenkins, L. Hankerson. because that is about the trade we might be staring at. Not sure I would take the qb over all that talent.

[HigSkin]

Thank you. That $47 is going to go quick. And you didn't even mention what a CB is gonna cost or someone to replace LL

Exactly!! Look for a nickel type guy who isn't gonna cost alot although would love Carr. Just don't think we can afford him.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I would love to see RG3 here also, but there has to be a price that is to high. From a pick perspective, would u rather have RG3 or T. Williams, R. Kerrigan, P. Rilley, R. Helu, J. Jenkins, L. Hankerson. because that is about the trade we might be staring at. Not sure I would take the qb over all that talent.

But we already have those guys. What we don't have is a QB.

[GWinSkins83]

Thank you. That $47 is going to go quick. And you didn't even mention what a CB is gonna cost or someone to replace LL

47-5.4=41.6-5=36.6-3=33.6-1.3=32.3-1.4=30.9-5=25.9-3=22.9-6=16.9-6=13.9 I added in another 6 million for a CB. Thats resigning all our guys, signing the rookies, and getting a 2 WRs and CB. With 13.9 to spare.

[Darkstarr]

But we already have those guys. What we don't have is a QB.

I understand that, the point is that is how much talent the skins will be giving up for the Qb. I am just saying If i had to choose between a qb. and potentially 6 starters i am not sure i go with the qb is all. I guess that better way to look at it is, the QB or a stud rt, stud safty, another good wr, starting lb to take over for fletch when he retires and a starting cb. Tought call imo.
I get that u do not know if the picks pan out, but the same can be said for rg3. He might or might not pan out.

[War Paint]

I would love to see RG3 here also, but there has to be a price that is to high. From a pick perspective, would u rather have RG3 or T. Williams, R. Kerrigan, P. Rilley, R. Helu, J. Jenkins, L. Hankerson. because that is about the trade we might be staring at. Not sure I would take the qb over all that talent.

Well, the answer is in what you just typed. We had such a large draft last year, that we have options and the ability to get the most important piece of the puzzle this year. You can only have so many spots on a 53 man roster. Besides, you can go out and sign all the Kerrigans and Helus you want. Your team is going to suck if you don't have a legit QB. Also, a lot of you seem to forget that we are like 40-50 million under the cap. We can go out like we did last year, where we signed Cofield, Bowen, and Josh Wilson, and do that on offense.

[HeluCopter29]

I think we have more needs filled then most people give us credit for. I think it's pretty fair to say that we don't have a whole lot of pressing needs beyond QB. Yeah, WR, O-Line, and DB are all things we need to address

With that in mind though, the O-Line played well despite the injuries they faced. Our WR's were good when Rex could actually get them the ball. Josh Wilson was a top 10 cover corner and Hall came on a lot towards the end of last year. In addition safety play began to pick up towards the end, particularly from Atogwe.

And let's not forget that WR, DB, and O-Line are incredibly deep in FA. Lot's of really good options there.

Look, I'm all for stockpiling picks and building from the ground up. But at this point, do we want to save up and get more guys like Niles Paul or Dejon Gomes? Yeah, they're good players but our roster is filled with those guys right now. Let's get someone elite who can take us to the next level.

Trading up for RGIII shouldn't be about the price. It should be about whether or not he's elite. Whether or not he can perform at a very high level.

[Darkstarr]

I think we have more needs filled then most people give us credit for. I think it's pretty fair to say that we don't have a whole lot of pressing needs beyond QB. Yeah, WR, O-Line, and DB are all things we need to address

With that in mind though, the O-Line played well despite the injuries they faced. Our WR's were good when Rex could actually get them the ball. Josh Wilson was a top 10 cover corner and Hall came on a lot towards the end of last year. In addition safety play began to pick up towards the end, particularly from Atogwe.

And let's not forget that WR, DB, and O-Line are incredibly deep in FA. Lot's of really good options there.

Look, I'm all for stockpiling picks and building from the ground up. But at this point, do we want to save up and get more guys like Niles Paul or Dejon Gomes? Yeah, they're good players but our roster is filled with those guys right now. Let's get someone elite who can take us to the next level.

Trading up for RGIII shouldn't be about the price. It should be about whether or not he's elite. Whether or not he can perform at a very high level.

So under your thinking you would give what ever st. louis wanted say 1,2,3 for 2012 and 2013? For 2 yrs the skins will have a total of 1 pick in the top 100 for 2 yrs in a row? Price has to matter what about 3 1's and 2 2's u willing to give that up when does become to much?

[rick7423]

IMHO, I believe that we need to get the No 2 spot, whatever it takes as long as it does not kill us too much. We MUST get the stable QB. The No 2 spot is crucial to our organization.

[War Paint]

If the Redskins had good QB play last year, they would have been competing for a playoff spot. We are essentially the same team as Dallas except they have a competent NFL QB and we do not.

That is true. The only difference between us and them is they got lucky with their Colt Brennan(Romo). If it was reversed and Brennan became a top 5 QB and Romo left the NFL, we'd be the ones in the thick of things and they would be in the basement. We are the only team in the division with no QB. It just amazes me that people are so timid when it comes to making a move for a QB. I thought for sure that Grossman and Beck would be the final straw, to where most people finally say "it's time to get a true franchise QB". I do think the majority are gung ho for RGIII, but man, I can't believe there is any Skin fan alive on the planet that still wants to kick the can down the road and settle for trash or mediocre QB play anymore.

[Darkstarr]

IMHO, I believe that we need to get the No 2 spot, whatever it takes as long as it does not kill us too much. We MUST get the stable QB. The No 2 spot is crucial to our organization.

I agree with you rick, but my question to u is what is to much for u, what is your def. of killing us? I have no issue with 2012 1st, 2nd and 2013 1st, 4th but that is as far as i go.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 10:53 AM ----------


That is true. The only difference between us and them is they got lucky with their Colt Brennan(Romo). If it was reversed and Brennan became a top 5 QB and Romo left the NFL, we'd be the ones in the thick of things and they would be in the basement. We are the only team in the division with no QB. It just amazes me that people are so timid when it comes to making a move for a QB. I thought for sure that Grossman and Beck would be the final straw, to where most people finally say "it's time to get a true franchise QB". I do think the majority are gung ho for RGIII, but man, I can't believe there is any Skin fan alive on the planet that still wants to kick the can down the road and settle for trash or mediocre QB play anymore.

To be fair, the Skins also have the Worst wr's in the division by far.

[HeluCopter29]

So under your thinking you would give what ever st. louis wanted say 1,2,3 for 2012 and 2013? For 2 yrs the skins will have a total of 1 pick in the top 100 for 2 yrs in a row? Price has to matter what about 3 1's and 2 2's u willing to give that up when does become to much?

I wouldn't really every be able to tell you when it's too much. I'd call it as I saw it. I will say 3 1's and 2 2's does sound high, although I don't think we'll have to pay that.

I think what I'm getting at is how picks are valued to us and how they are valued in general.

Last year and the year before I would have been completely against this. We traded back, stockpiled, and look what it got us. A lot of really good promising guys who we can work with. The problem with doing that again stems from there only being 53 roster spots and only so many ways to use 53 guys in the first place. We don't need Jarvis Jenkins, Hankerson, or Helu because we already have them. And we have multiples of them. Why not do what we can to get the one guy we actually do need? In this case a QB.

Simply put, we already have the guys we would be drafting otherwise and those picks would just be wasted on guys who won't get a chance and will get cut a year or two from now. Why not use them towards something that can have a really positive impact on this team? When Rex played well, the whole team played well. When Rex sucked, the whole team sucked. Let's get our guys. now.

[rocskins]

Every time you trade up it is a gamble. This has been argued to death already but look what the second tier of QB's has brought us with Ramsey and JC. Not to mention that the partial tear that he once suffered of his ACL didn't seem to slow him down at the combine.

[Gibbstastic]

Yeah but next we will have to. And how people want it here is to have 30 players on this roster with rookie contracts. Thats not going to be 60% of the cap. We also got to bring into the equation that the cap is going to increase alot in 2013 when the TV deals kick in. We would probably see a 130 to 140 cap. With 30 rookie contracts on the roster thats not going to be alot. My point is we are not going to be able to keep those picks. That is weird to say but that is the way it is.

1st round picks can renegotiate after 3 years, 2-7 can renegotiate after 2 years.
Just wanted to point out that if they perform, they can get bigger contracts and fill some of that space you're talking about. Assuming you want to.

Also, I think someone said something about carry-over cap space. That is not included into the percentage needed to spend the next year. 90% of only THAT year's cap is all that's needed to fill. This year's floor is set at $108 mil, while the cap is $120 mil. If a team has $12 mil to carry-over, it does not affect their floor next year.

[War Paint]

I agree with you rick, but my question to u is what is to much for u, what is your def. of killing us? I have no issue with 2012 1st, 2nd and 2013 1st, 4th but that is as far as i go.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 10:53 AM ----------



To be fair, the Skins also have the Worst wr's in the division by far.

I think our WRs are okay. However, I'd like to see what they look like if they had an elite QB throwing to them. An elite QB makes the whole offense look better. But yes, I'd like to see us go for a WR in FA that has proven playmaking ability.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

I think our WRs are okay. However, I'd like to see what they look like if they had an elite QB throwing to them. An elite QB makes the whole offense look better. But yes, I'd like to see us go for a WR in FA that has proven playmaking ability.

I agree but our 2 best WR's are in their 30's right? We need a major upgrade at the pos.

[Darkstarr]

I wouldn't really every be able to tell you when it's too much. I'd call it as I saw it. I will say 3 1's and 2 2's does sound high, although I don't think we'll have to pay that.

I think what I'm getting at is how picks are valued to us and how they are valued in general.

Last year and the year before I would have been completely against this. We traded back, stockpiled, and look what it got us. A lot of really good promising guys who we can work with. The problem with doing that again stems from there only being 53 roster spots and only so many ways to use 53 guys in the first place. We don't need Jarvis Jenkins, Hankerson, or Helu because we already have them. And we have multiples of them. Why not do what we can to get the one guy we actually do need? In this case a QB.

Simply put, we already have the guys we would be drafting otherwise and those picks would just be wasted on guys who won't get a chance and will get cut a year or two from now. Why not use them towards something that can have a really positive impact on this team? When Rex played well, the whole team played well. When Rex sucked, the whole team sucked. Let's get our guys. now.

Again for the record i am all for trading for rg3, but price matters to me. As for actually needs, i would say 2 linemene are needs, 2 safties are needs, a #1 wr is a need and maybe #2 wr is a need. LB will soon be a need, cb is a need. There are plenty of needs. DL could be a need. One never knows how someone comes back from an acl. lets face it on a 5-11 team there are plenty of needs. QB happens to be the biggest imo also,but all i am saying is price matters becareful to not give up to way to much.

[Missouri_Skins_Fan]

This team can get so good this year, it's scary.

RG3 @QB
The chargers are not tagging Vincent Jackson, so he will be available.
Mario Williams will be available
If the Chiefs are tagging Bowe which that is what is reported, that leaves CB Brandon Carr out there.
(And you know Raheem Morris is gonna want some new blood)

So much talent out there in FA this year.
And we are loaded with 47+ under the cap.

Seriously, we could get really good, really quick..if we make the right moves and draft well with the remaining picks.

We need to set up RG3 to succeed here.
Get him some help...

[skins2323]

Im still a believer that we can fill our holes through Free Agency and we realistically DONT have that many holes. Im for trading up to snag RG3. 47 million is before restructures/cuts too so lets say for the sake of argument we have 52 million in Cap Space. Im assuming we would save money on Brown getting cut, a Cooley restructure and possibly a Hall restructure. We trade a 1,3,4 this year plus a 1 and conditional 3rd (if the 1st rounder is a top 10 pick then the 3rd rounder is not awarded) to get RG3. That leaves us with a 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 2 7ths to build depth. If we can hit on those picks like we did last year, we would be a pretty solid shape.

Draft

RG3 - 6 million
Rest of draft - 7.5 million

Resignings

London Fletcher @ 6 m/season (5 yr/30 million)
Kory Lickensteiger @ 1.67 m/season (3 yr/5 million)
Will Montgomery @ 2 million per season (4 yr/ 8 million) - dont know what his deal really was
LaRon Landry @ 3 million + incentives (1 yr 3 million + possible 5 million in incentives)
Graham Gano @ 500K/season (3 yr/1.5 million)
Fred Davis @ 5 million (Franchised)


Free Agent Starters

In FA we sign WR Marques Colston @ 8 m/season (4 yrs/32 million)
In FA we sign LG Carl Nicks @ 7.5 m/season (6 yr/ 45 million)
In FA we sign DE Red Bryant @ 3 m/season (3 yr 9 million)
In Fa we sign CB William Gay @ 5 m/season (5 yr/ 25 million)

I am sure I am forgetting someone on our team to resign, but if we roughly followed that plan we would have spent 50-55 million, and as much as 60 if LL earned all his incentives. Just to give ppl an idea of the kind of quality we could get from the cap space we have, and I was generous with some of the contracts and the amount alloted for the draft. We also would be using our 2nd rounder to replace Brown at RT for those who were curious who would play there

[GWinSkins83]

1st round picks can renegotiate after 3 years, 2-7 can renegotiate after 2 years.
Just wanted to point out that if they perform, they can get bigger contracts and fill some of that space you're talking about. Assuming you want to.

Also, I think someone said something about carry-over cap space. That is not included into the percentage needed to spend the next year. 90% of only THAT year's cap is all that's needed to fill. This year's floor is set at $108 mil, while the cap is $120 mil. If a team has $12 mil to carry-over, it does not affect their floor next year.

Yeah ok but that still doesn't stop us from getting those FAs.

[RedskinsFanatic]

I would say this...if we cant get RGIII or Luck i wouldn't draft any other QB in this draft. Tannehill will need to be drafted if we want him at 6. He's not going to be there in the 2nd or late 1st. If we can't get RGIII or Luck well i guess we just go into the season with Orton or whoever we bring in. No other guy is worth a pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. The way i look at it, if we are going to go after a 1st round talent next year (which we should if we cant get one of the top 2 this year) why waste a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year.

I dont want to, but if the price is too much, sign Orton or another FA QB and use all of our picks or trade back in the early to late 20's and pick up another 1st rounder for next year. I dont want to do this. I want RGIII or Luck but if we dont get one of them i dont want to waste a pick on a QB. Just my thoughts.

And IMO anyhing more than two 1sts and and a 2nd seems too high.

You actually would prefer Orton over drafting any other QB in the draft besides Luck/RG? Absolutely not. Orton is Rex Part II I know you state its your opinion..fine...but do you have another? the one you expressed seriously makes me nauseous. The 'Skins have an opportunity here to finally change a direction this team has been going to for so many years. I do believe that we should (not) give up the house in order to move up to land RG, We have way too many holes to fill ie OLine!

If the price is too high to move up, stick with your pick, trade back for more picks, pick up Weeden and lets go. Why people are obsessed with Weedens age is humorous. We live in a year by year world. Who cares if he's here for 7 or 8 yrs? Its unrealistic.

[Pick6]

I am sorry, but the Skins have nothing left to lose. Until we address the QB issue we will continue to be in a state of average to below-average. You have to take the guy to build your team around, the guy that make or break your team. An elite QB will help you win a game (D.Hall against the Bears), but they can't help you win a season.

Also, for the "I want to horde pick crowd" eventually you get dimishing returns and can only carry 53 players. Not every starter will be a pro-player and we are better off with a unit of guys who can play hard as a team.

[dcdiscokid]

If Shanahan thinks he is a franchise qb then yes he is worth 4 starters. You are not getting one of those in FA. All other positions can be filled via FA, but not that one.

[RedskinsFanatic]

I am sorry, but the Skins have nothing left to lose. Until we address the QB issue we will continue to be in a state of average to below-average. You have to take the guy to build your team around, the guy that make or break your team. An elite QB will help you win a game (D.Hall against the Bears), but they can't help you win a season.

Also, for the "I want to horde pick crowd" eventually you get dimishing returns and can only carry 53 players. Not every starter will be a pro-player and we are better off with a unit of guys who can play hard as a team.


If we don't address the Oline we could have Jesus at QB and he would fail. I am in the crowd of not giving up everything to get RG. Do I want him? Hell yes..but at what cost?

[TaylorPickSix]

If we don't address the Oline we could have Jesus at QB and he would fail. I am in the crowd of not giving up everything to get RG. Do I want him? Hell yes..but at what cost?

I'm so sick of hearing this. Our O-Line is NOT THAT BAD. Also, a smart QB that can read defenses and make protection calls a la Peyton can drastically improve an offensive line.

QB is the most essential position in football. I don't give a **** if we bring the Hogs back - Rex Grossman would still lose us double digit games.

[#98QBKiller]

I don't think we should trade up at any cost, but it's time to make a serious push to acquire RG3 (or Luck if the Colts miraculously select RG3 instead). If Shanahan doesn't make a competent effort at one of the top QBs this year, I think he risks losing his job in 2013 and additionally setting the franchise back anyway due to yet another coaching staff needing to be hired. So IMO, it's kind of like, do you risk the future by trading picks or do you risk it by setting Shanahan up for failure again, and having to blow everything back up.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 11:15 AM ----------


I'm so sick of hearing this. Our O-Line is NOT THAT BAD. Also, a smart QB that can read defenses and make protection calls a la Peyton can drastically improve an offensive line.

QB is the most essential position in football. I don't give a **** if we bring the Hogs back - Rex Grossman would still lose us double digit games.

This is a sig-worthy quote.


:applause:

[Gibbstastic]

Yeah ok but that still doesn't stop us from getting those FAs.

Indeed. But at the same time, our FA signings last year were reasonable. No real big overpayments. But at the same time, those players have to want to come here.

I'd like to see how we do in FA this year before I consider any type of draft trade like this. If we can fill some holes and add some depth, then fine. But if we struggle/aren't aggresive in FA, we should probably keep those picks. Carr, Gay, Bryant, Williams, Colston, Jackson, Nicks. They all look good, but can anyone honestly say we're going to get everyone that we want? And even if we do, let's not forget what happened to the "Dream Team"... it doesn't always lead directly to sucess.

[War Paint]

I agree but our 2 best WR's are in their 30's right? We need a major upgrade at the pos.

Hankerson is the wildcard. He looked great and flashed some signs of being elite, but it was just one game. Sucks that he got injured. It would've been great to see him play more games. Hopefully RGIII throwing to him will make Hankerson look like a stud. Yes, I agree with you though, we need more at WR. We can sign one of the top WR FAs available. We have a ton of cap space available to do so.

[RedskinsFanatic]

I'm so sick of hearing this. Our O-Line is NOT THAT BAD. Also, a smart QB that can read defenses and make protection calls a la Peyton can drastically improve an offensive line.

QB is the most essential position in football. I don't give a **** if we bring the Hogs back - Rex Grossman would still lose us double digit games.


I disagree, I think they are that bad and have been for quite some time. With that said...that IS funny :)

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I understand that, the point is that is how much talent the skins will be giving up for the Qb. I am just saying If i had to choose between a qb. and potentially 6 starters i am not sure i go with the qb is all. I guess that better way to look at it is, the QB or a stud rt, stud safty, another good wr, starting lb to take over for fletch when he retires and a starting cb. Tought call imo.
I get that u do not know if the picks pan out, but the same can be said for rg3. He might or might not pan out.

1 elite QB > 5 marginal starters. 1 elite QB > 5 elite starters for that matter, because the difference between a marginal QB and elite QB in terms of impact on your team is bigger than the difference between 5 elite starters and 5 marginal starters.

[tiger187126]

I disagree, I think they are that bad and have been for quite some time. With that said...that IS funny :)

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

last year 10th running the ball and 15th passing. that's not a bad offensive line especially when you look at the talent working behind them and the injuries/suspensions.

[GWinSkins83]

Imma say this if FAs see that we traded up to get RG3 they would love to come here. They know we are about winning and putting together a good team.

[War Paint]

I'm so sick of hearing this. Our O-Line is NOT THAT BAD. Also, a smart QB that can read defenses and make protection calls a la Peyton can drastically improve an offensive line.

QB is the most essential position in football. I don't give a **** if we bring the Hogs back - Rex Grossman would still lose us double digit games.

Me too. Here's the thing about our Oline. They actually looked very good in preseason and the beginning of the year. It wasn't until Kory Lichtensteiger's injury, when the Oline play crumbled. That was because we started playing musical chairs to compensate for LG. We moved our starting C to LG, then put in our back up C, so with one injury, we were downgraded two spots. The following weeks consisted of many changes if I remember correctly. Plus, Beck made them look much worse than they were with his 10 sack game. Towards the end of the season, our Oline played much better, and that was without our starting LT and LG. Oline depth and upgrades can be addressed in FA and with any draft picks not used in a trade. Plus a QB like RGIII takes a ton of pressure off of the Oline.

[TaylorPickSix]

I disagree, I think they are that bad and have been for quite some time. With that said...that IS funny :)

Don't get me wrong, we could definitely use some upgrades. I would not be opposed to bringing in a new RT, LG, or C. I like Monty and Kory for depth, and if we can't get Myers then let the two of them battle it out for the starting C. I really want to see us sign Ben Grubbs to play LG.

That being said, I really don't think it matters at all who is on the offensive line if the guy throwing the ball is as terrible as it's been for the past 15 years.

[RedskinsFanatic]

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

last year 10th running the ball and 15th passing. that's not a bad offensive line especially when you look at the talent working behind them and the injuries/suspensions.


Thank you for that link...interesting ~

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 09:29 AM ----------


Don't get me wrong, we could definitely use some upgrades. I would not be opposed to bringing in a new RT, LG, or C. I like Monty and Kory for depth, and if we can't get Myers then let the two of them battle it out for the starting C. I really want to see us sign Ben Grubbs to play LG.

That being said, I really don't think it matters at all who is on the offensive line if the guy throwing the ball is as terrible as it's been for the past 15 years.

I have to admit..My perception might not be that factual since our QB position has been so poor. I see what some are saying (you) included that a solid QB can make your OLine better. ~ I'm still not sold on selling the farm though for RG, I'm a Blazers fan..its inherently in me to doubt decisions on high draft pics and taking chances on supposed future superstars :)

[tiger187126]

Thank you for that link...interesting ~

yeah, but don't believe every stat you read. games like the buffalo one where beck took 10 sacks and claimed responsibilty for 6 usually make the oline look like they gave up 10 sacks. football outsiders is usually good at pairing that down and giving more realistic stats.

also on the topic of "are we giving up too much," i think that having $50 million in cap room will help us plug some holes for the next 2-3 years while we recover from giving up picks. i imagine that's part of the thought process.

[LadySkinsFan]

Imma say this if FAs see that we traded up to get RG3 they would love to come here. They know we are about winning and putting together a good team.

Thanks for writing this! I was just thinking this too, that if we get RGIII then everyone will know that we are not fooling around, that we will be a presence for years to come. FAs will want to come here for glory and not just a huge payday like in the past.

[TaylorPickSix]

I have to admit..My perception might not be that factual since our QB position has been so poor. I see what some are saying (you) included that a solid QB can make your OLine better. ~ I'm still not sold on selling the farm though for RG, I'm a Blazers fan..its inherently in me to doubt decisions on high draft pics and taking chances on supposed future superstars :)

Completely understandable man, I think if I were a fan of a team like that I would have your same opinion lol.

I'm just gonna trust ShanAllen at this point to know what they are doing. If they think RG3 is the guy, let's do it. I've never seen this team win the division (ONE playoff win since I started actually following and paying attention 12 years ago). I'm sick of being terrible, and that starts with the signal caller.

[RedskinsFanatic]

Completely understandable man, I think if I were a fan of a team like that I would have your same opinion lol.

I'm just gonna trust ShanAllen at this point to know what they are doing. If they think RG3 is the guy, let's do it. I've never seen this team win the division (ONE playoff win since I started actually following and paying attention 12 years ago). I'm sick of being terrible, and that starts with the signal caller.


I will do the same my friend. Whatever they choose to do I will support. And yes, you being only 23 you don't have any of the great memories that I have to think back on. I'm 42 so I do remember our glory years but I sure would like some new ones! ~ and being a Blazers fan ain't easy..but you love who ya love! lol

[TheGreek1973]

do you think Griffin is really going to do anything at his Pro day that will lower his value, especially in terms of draft picks?

Only if he says with the type of 40 I just run, I am going to try out for the Olympic team....LOL

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Everyone is going to feel differently about this...

Do you want to wait another 10 yrs. for a once in a lifetime talent behind center

No I don't want to wait another 10 years, but Griffin is not a once in a lifetime talent. Luck is as close to one as we've seen in a while. I would squeamishly bite the bullet and do it if we could get him. Still a risk, but much less of one. Very talented, one year studs from a spread show up every year. I think Griffin is probably better than most of them but not worth the risk of all those top picks. Just not enough of a resume to give up that much. Its a tough call. I don't think I would do it.

[DogofWar1]

If we don't address the Oline we could have Jesus at QB and he would fail. I am in the crowd of not giving up everything to get RG. Do I want him? Hell yes..but at what cost?

Jesus doesn't run a 4.38 and didn't have to play behind a Baylor line that collapsed so quick it has to be measured with a high speed camera just to see it. Our line might not be great but:

1. We have FA, and there's some solid OG prospects out there. If we add depth among the OTs, we'd probably go from below average to average.
2. RGIII would feel like he had all day. He likes to stay in the pocket, truly he does. He just never had a pocket to work from.

Also, to be fair, I'm pretty sure Jesus could fly a 4.38, or teleport it. Or maybe he could run a 4.38, but they never mention it anywhere.

A good mobile QB sees a crappy line as a minor inconvenience, not a death sentence.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

If we don't address the Oline we could have Jesus at QB and he would fail. I am in the crowd of not giving up everything to get RG. Do I want him? Hell yes..but at what cost?

Our offense line is fine. Could it be better? Sure. Every o-line in the league can be better; it's not a Golden Age on that front.

But I don't get this idea that our o-line is horrible. It's a guard away from being pretty good, I think.

Oh...I get it...We need the Hogs. Because that's so easy to duplicate.

[Chicken Fried]

What's the deal with his partially torn ACL? This is the first I've heard about it.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

So I had a debate about this subject with Kiel (the author of this piece) earlier yesterday, before he even wrote this article, and I can't help but notice his insistance to purport half-truths & flat out falsehoods as if they are accurate.

For instance he loves using the partially torn ACL (that happened in 2009 and hasn't bothered him since) as if the guy has chronic knee issues, but ignores the fact that it was such a minor injury that he was even able to come back in the next series (the injury happened during the first series of the game, so he didn't even miss a snap) and play until halftime accumulating 266 yards passing and 3 TDs on 13 of 19 passing. Many Baylor fans & observers even noted that RGIII was running fine after about 4 weeks of rehab and that he likely could have played again that season. But, smartly so, Baylor shut him down since the NCAA granted him medical redshirt status giving him an extra year.

Another misrepresentation that he tries to pass off as truth is that RGIII had only 1 good season, when in-fact he had 1 great season in his senior year (with: 4300 yards passing with 37 TDs passing 10 rushing and 6 ints on 72% completion), a pretty good junior season (the season immediately following his injury shortened 2009 season) where he put up 3500 yards passing, 22 tds passing, 8 rushing TDs (30 total TDs) and 8 picks with a 67% comp % (just for comparison's sake, Luck's threw for 3338 yards, had 35 total TDs (32 passing 3 rushing) and 8 picks on 71% cmp%, I'd say those are comparable numbers to Luck who was deemed the golden child after that season). Even his freshman year he did pretty a good job putting up 2100 yards, a 60% completion rate, 15 passing TDs, 13 rushing tds and only 3 picks. Also take note that his numbers improved year over year, yet Kiel never mentions these facts, seems a bit disingenuous to post it up saying you're just trying to look at all angles, and then put misleading factors to skew someone towards your way of thinking. This is especially frustrating considering Kiel even admitted to me that he was wrong about stating that RGIII only had 1 good season, yet he places it in his article, obviously as a way to drive up readership by being controversial (which Kiel aka InsaneBoost enjoys doing, hence the reason I call him the "Human Troll", as anyone who remembers InsaneBoost as an ES poster or even as a current tweeter can attest to).

The simplified offense thing, I don't know if that is as big a deal as people want to make it out to be. Robert Griffin strikes me as a rather intelligent gentlemen who'd be able to grasp certain concepts decently, at least. Not saying it'll be easy for him, but people said the exact same thing about Cam Newton, and we see how that worked out.

Another issue I have with this write-up is that Kiel doesn't even seem to take into account the value of some of the guys he claims we could snag in the second round to mitigate the loss of RGIII. For starters, Tannehill is very likely to be gone by the 2nd round, probably wont make it out of the top 10/15. So that means we'd presumably have to use our 6th pick on Tannehill. Now, I like Tannehill, but not that much, in-fact I think it's a bigger risk to take Tannehill at 6, than it is to take RGIII via Trade up. Tannehill isn't even in RGIII or Luck's class, however (in my eyes) he and Weeden are the best of the 2nd tier guys. Many would say just trade down and take Tannehill a few picks later, but really who is gonna want to trade up with us in the top 10, when you consider Tannehill could easily go to MIA and be with his former college coach or Seattle a few picks later, I just don't think we'd have a shot unless we take him right then and there. Weeden is an interesting case, and could very well be a good player, but I think the playmaker ability of RGIII, the youth and the overall football IQ is still leaps and bounds better than Weeden. Then there's Chandler Harnish, why would we take him in the 2nd, the guy is likely to be an UDFA maybe a 7th rounder.

I think what it comes down to is this: Andrew Luck and RGIII are the premier QB talents in the draft, and I think better all around than the top QBs from last season (at worst in the same realm of Newton) & likely next season (I think they are both better than Landry Jones and Matt Barkley). I think it is a bigger risk for us to use such a high pick on Tannehill than it is to trade up for RGIII, though the # of picks used to acquire either is much higher for Griffin, I just think if there is any time to make such a move, it's now with guys like RGIII and Luck as your options. Even if we were to grab a guy like Weeden in the 2nd (though I'd still prefer to get someone like him in the late second) and after next season look to make a big trade to maneuver ourselves into position for one of the top QBs in 2013, I still feel like that's a major risk, because I don't see us being in the top 10 again, so that means we'd have to trade close to, if not as much, as we're talking now for likely less talented options.

Having said all of that I do feel like the price is a bit steep, but I wouldn't be mad if Bruce & Mike felt RGIII was worth the risk. Stockpiling draft picks is nice and all, but that doesn't mean it's always the best course of action. Look at a team like the Patriots, sure they hoard tons of picks, but they've also had one of the worst draft pick retention rates in the past few years. They succeed because they have a QB who's a great playmaker. Sure we may miss out on some potential starters, but this is where the mettle of your scouting department gets a major test, because if they can find some gems later in the draft and Bruce can make some good moves to maximize our pick potential, then giving up so much for RGIII doesn't feel so bad. No matter how you look at it, the guy is going to be an amazing playmaker, and even if he doesn't grasp it all as a QB immediately, I think he'll be able to make enough plays to be dangerous.

[TaylorPickSix]

No I don't want to wait another 10 years, but Griffin is not a once in a lifetime talent. Luck is as close to one as we've seen in a while. I would squeamishly bite the bullet and do it if we could get him. Still a risk, but much less of one. Very talented, one year studs from a spread show up every year. I think Griffin is probably better than most of them but not worth the risk of all those top picks. Just not enough of a resume to give up that much. Its a tough call. I don't think I would do it.

He's far from a one year wonder. The difference was his team actually won games this year, and that's always been what gets you noticed in the Heisman conversation. Look at Griffin's career numbers - he improved every year in college, especially transitioning more from a running QB to a passer.

I understand your spread QB reservations, I have plenty myself, but I think RG3 is the exception to the rule.

[Btubes18]

If the Redskins had good QB play last year, they would have been competing for a playoff spot. We are essentially the same team as Dallas except they have a competent NFL QB and we do not.

You are exactly right on this, hence why a QB is a must htis year, whether through the draft or FA.

[HeluCopter29]

First off, Andrew Lucks numbers and RGIII's numbers are very similar. I think that RGIII can make the transition to a pro-style offense. Obviously there's a risk factor, but isn't there with any highly touted rookie? I think RGIII is going to do well in this league. If we get him, and he pans out, we are a playoff contender this year. I really believe that.

I encourage everyone to go to redskins.com and check out the roster page. Sort it by experience and I think the results may surprise you. A tremendous amount of younger guys. Hell, Fred Davis is just now going into his 5th year. Seems like ages ago we drafted him. In Shanahan's first 2 years here he has drafted 16 players and added many more via UDFA. The guys he's traded for, with the exception of McNabb, have panned out pretty well.

Now look at the depth chart. Yeah, it needs help in places, but where is the obvious pressing hole? You guessed right. It's QB.

It seems to me like what we're saying on this board right now are the same things we've been saying for years. Draft guys, build from the ground up, stock pile picks, don't trade up and get busts, etc. We said this because the old regime sucked and got ****ty players via trade and had no picks. The picks we did have (in the later rounds) were complete misses. We never had a good draft ever under those guys. In the past two years we've had two good drafts. We've got a lot of pieces in place. The most pressing need now, by far, is the QB. Let's get that in place.

And if RGIII sucks, yeah then it'll be a mistake. But who we would we draft other wise? Niles Paul? Aldrick Robinson? We already have those guys. No sense in drafting them twice.

[Champskins]

I love Griffin, and Luck... for obvious reasons. But this "once in a lifetime" BS is only because we are tired of having mediocre crap at the QB position. If we didnt get one this year, some of ya'll would be saying that Logan Thomas, Tyler Bray, Matt Barkley, Aaron Murray, etc. are "Once in a lifetime" as well. The truth is, the QB position is evolving and its going to be harder in the next few years and in the future to find a QB that doesn't run just as well as he passes. Slow QB's are few and far between and will eventually be non-existent IMO. My point being that next years crop will be dominant as well. Oh, and I forgot Landry Jones and Tyler Wilson (my choice for #1 overall next year)

[Fat Stupid Loser]

He's far from a one year wonder. The difference was his team actually won games this year, and that's always been what gets you noticed in the Heisman conversation. Look at Griffin's career numbers - he improved every year in college, especially transitioning more from a running QB to a passer.

I understand your spread QB reservations, I have plenty myself, but I think RG3 is the exception to the rule.

He might be. I think that's what makes it such a tough call for me. He is clearly very bright and educated to listen to him speak. So for me its all about potential as he is from a spread and never run a prostyle offense. That jump will take the brightest qbs a couple of seasons to put it together. Just always very skeptical about guys coming from an offense that has them walk up to the line, then stop and look over to the coach to tell them what to do. Doesn't mean they can't learn it, but how well and how soon? For those picks I'd rather a guy who has been running a pro-style at a high level for 3 years.

If it takes him 3 years to become a top ten QB is it worth all the picks? Maybe. If it takes 5? If he is a mid-pack guy his entire career, that would probably be a bust considering what was given up. You can get a mid-pack guy anywhere.

[skins2323]

11. Please do not use the “Quote” feature to quote any large sections of text, or to quote pictures, gifs, or videos.
It unnecessarily extends and clutters threads and wastes space in databases..

well written, well played. Count me in

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Players like this only come around once in a blue moon and I don't see anything else coming along within the next 2 years. Therefore, I think the Redskins should do anything within reason to obtain the 2nd pick and get RGIII. I don't know what's in reason but I'll leave that to you guys because you're good at projecting what it would take to move up. Landry and our #1 - 6th pick? Would that get it done or do we need more??

The argument of him making the transition to a pro offense I think is rather weak. The man has all the skills to transition. He's fast, athletic, and a great arm. He's also smart and I think will become a good student of the game. I just get the feeling from him that he doesn't take anything for granted. I base that off his heismann speech because I don't have much else to go on. but those are my thoughts on this topic

[Jumbo]

well written, well played. Count me in

I agree, unfortunately, for now we have to count you out for for a week due to this egregious violation of rule 11. Even though new guys need to learn and follow the rules as everyone agrees to do when they register, I would be prone to give you a warning except we've run numerous sticky threads warning of this being one of our worst ongoing board problems, and made countless in-thread posts also warning of the matter. For you guys reading, tell your fellow members when you see it (so you may want to review the rule yourself) so they have the chance to edit and save themselves a temp ban. :(

[Darkstarr]

1 elite QB > 5 marginal starters. 1 elite QB > 5 elite starters for that matter, because the difference between a marginal QB and elite QB in terms of impact on your team is bigger than the difference between 5 elite starters and 5 marginal starters.


So u are saying u would rather have 1 elite QB(tom brady) then 5 elite players (Ware, Suh,L. Fitzgarald, C. Johnson, and Revis?). Wow hmm I will take the 5 elite players plz. I would feel i could buld a hell of a defense around those players and a nice O.

[GWinSkins83]

I love Griffin, and Luck... for obvious reasons. But this "once in a lifetime" BS is only because we are tired of having mediocre crap at the QB position. If we didnt get one this year, some of ya'll would be saying that Logan Thomas, Tyler Bray, Matt Barkley, Aaron Murray, etc. are "Once in a lifetime" as well. The truth is, the QB position is evolving and its going to be harder in the next few years and in the future to find a QB that doesn't run just as well as he passes. Slow QB's are few and far between and will eventually be non-existent IMO. My point being that next years crop will be dominant as well. Oh, and I forgot Landry Jones and Tyler Wilson (my choice for #1 overall next year)

AND you forgot Geno Smith! He is the cream of the crop to me anyways. Followed by Barkley and Thomas.

[Champskins]

AND you forgot Geno Smith! He is the cream of the crop to me anyways. Followed by Barkley and Thomas.

I like Geno Smith, good call. Its going to be sick next year. Depending on how the year plays out you'll have Tyler Bray, Tyler Wilson, Logan Thomas, Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Aaron Murray, Landry Jones... just off the top of my head.

[GWinSkins83]

I like Geno Smith, good call. Its going to be sick next year. Depending on how the year plays out you'll have Tyler Bray, Tyler Wilson, Logan Thomas, Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Aaron Murray, Landry Jones... just off the top of my head.

Yea I think Bray, Murray, and probably Thomas stays though. But it would be a good draft. I did say if Browns get RG3 than I wouldn't get no QB and just get the Oline, Weapons, and complete the defense and go after one of those QBs. But I think RG3 is to special to past up and I think we should go all out for dude. He just seem like the QB Mike have dreamed about when he decided make this offense.

[Champskins]

I've done the math. The Rams #2 overall is worth 2600 points. On the value chart, our #1 in 2012 is (1600) + #2 in 2012 (520) + #3 in 2012 (240) leaving only (240) difference in between which would be the equivalent to possibly another 3rd rounder. No way would I give up 2 first rounders... just too much. Id possibly throw in our 2013 2nd rounder which would still put us over the value of the #2 overall in 2012 from the Rams. Id check with the Colts to see what they'd take for #1 or the Vikings for #3.

So that'd be our 1, 2, 3 this year and our 2 or 3 next year. We'll need our first next year

[tiger187126]

So u are saying u would rather have 1 elite QB(tom brady) then 5 elite players (Ware, Suh,L. Fitzgarald, C. Johnson, and Revis?). Wow hmm I will take the 5 elite players plz. I would feel i could buld a hell of a defense around those players and a nice O.

i understand your train of thought, but flip it and look what elite qbs have done on teams that lack elite talent:

tom brady (probably the most glaring shortage of elite teammates throughout his career)
peyton manning (has made guys around him elite, but one season without him and it's a 2 win team)
eli manning (he should get his due, a marginal team that he has won 2 SBs with)
ben roethlisberger (he can win big games against good qbs, and does so pretty consistently. defense hasn't been nearly as good as people give them credit for recently, especially considering they play in a low scoring division.)

meanwhile if we look at teams with elite talent, but less than elite qbs:

chargers (always loaded with talent, but rivers can't outduel elite qbs. coaching is obviously laughable)
jets (all talk, stack up well on paper, get blown away because qb can't hang on the biggest of stages. he is pretty good in the playoffs, but just not even in the ballpark overall)
cowboys (close to double digit pro bowlers frequently, qb can't win late)
lions (they will be good, but right now they're a collection of really high draft picks and an aging core. stafford can't overcome this yet)
cardinals (fitzgerald will always put up numbers, but without a qb they can't put up wins and that describes a lot of teams.)

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 02:29 PM ----------


I've done the math. The Rams #2 overall is worth 2600 points. On the value chart, our #1 in 2012 is (1600) + #2 in 2012 (520) + #3 in 2012 (240) leaving only (240) difference in between which would be the equivalent to possibly another 3rd rounder. No way would I give up 2 first rounders... just too much. Id possibly throw in our 2013 2nd rounder which would still put us over the value of the #2 overall in 2012 from the Rams. Id check with the Colts to see what they'd take for #1 or the Vikings for #3.

So that'd be our 1, 2, 3 this year and our 2 or 3 next year. We'll need our first next year

the draft chart no longer applies because of the rookie wage scale. if teams didn't need a guy high they didn't want to get stuck paying the huge bill, so they were more inclined to trade and the value wasn't as high.

with the wage scale they can reach and not worry about getting stuck overpaying.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

Whatever. It. Takes.
We are too close to the promise land (franchise QB) to turn back now. Make. It. Happen.
I really don't care what it takes, I want my FQB.

[rick7423]

Yea I think Bray, Murray, and probably Thomas stays though. But it would be a good draft. I did say if Browns get RG3 than I wouldn't get no QB and just get the Oline, Weapons, and complete the defense and go after one of those QBs. But I think RG3 is to special to past up and I think we should go all out for dude. He just seem like the QB Mike have dreamed about when he decided make this offense.

The problem is that I do not believe that we will be in a position like we are this year. Being at 6 is a prime position to move up. It becomes increasingly difficult to move up if you are at 8 or later in the draft. Do we really want to suck for another year just to get a higher draft slot?

Hell no! Get the man now and lets move on. There will always be someone else who is prettier, shinier, and looks good statistically. Lets end this now and roll the bones on RGIII.

[Califan007]

i understand your train of thought, but flip it and look what elite qbs have done on teams that lack elite talent:

tom brady (probably the most glaring shortage of elite teammates throughout his career)
peyton manning (has made guys around him elite, but one season without him and it's a 2 win team)
eli manning (he should get his due, a marginal team that he has won 2 SBs with)
ben roethlisberger (he can win big games against good qbs, and does so pretty consistently. defense hasn't been nearly as good as people give them credit for recently, especially considering they play in a low scoring division.)

meanwhile if we look at teams with elite talent, but less than elite qbs:

chargers (always loaded with talent, but rivers can't outduel elite qbs. coaching is obviously laughable)
jets (all talk, stack up well on paper, get blown away because qb can't hang on the biggest of stages. he is pretty good in the playoffs, but just not even in the ballpark overall)
cowboys (close to double digit pro bowlers frequently, qb can't win late)
lions (they will be good, but right now they're a collection of really high draft picks and an aging core. stafford can't overcome this yet)
cardinals (fitzgerald will always put up numbers, but without a qb they can't put up wins and that describes a lot of teams.)
You can add the Vikings to that second list...they had a really strong defense and one of the best running backs in the league...but couldn't sniff the NFC Championship game until they added the elite QB (Favre).

The reality is we may not be in a better position to take a chance on an insanely promising QB than we are this year. So if not now, when?

[Mahons21]

i understand your train of thought, but flip it and look what elite qbs have done on teams that lack elite talent:
You'll never believe it, but we disagree, A LOT in this post.


tom brady (probably the most glaring shortage of elite teammates throughout his career)
What has Brady won since his elite defense left? Names like Seymour, Vrabel, McGinest, Harrison, Seau are frequently forgotten on this website. Then there's his o-line, in my opinion Brady doesn't make his line look good rather it's vice versa, they make him look great. Few QBs I can recall that not only get the amount of time Brady gets, but also get a pocket as clean as Brady gets, consistently room to step up into a throw.

Furthermore, the Pats were 11-5 without Brady, and 12-4 with him the next year. The obvious counter-point is the Pats were 16-0 the year before, still this averages out to 3 game difference between Brady and Cassel.


peyton manning (has made guys around him elite, but one season without him and it's a 2 win team)
No argument from me here, if people still can't see the Peyton is the GOAT after this season, I don't know what it will take.


eli manning (he should get his due, a marginal team that he has won 2 SBs with)
I disagree they're a marginal team. The Giants were a team with a marginal record due to injuries, however they got both healthy and hot at the right time of the year.


ben roethlisberger (he can win big games against good qbs, and does so pretty consistently. defense hasn't been nearly as good as people give them credit for recently, especially considering they play in a low scoring division.)
Ben can't "win" big games he can be the QB of a team that wins big games, in large part because there defense frequently holds high scoring offense to minimal outputs.



chargers (always loaded with talent, but rivers can't outduel elite qbs. coaching is obviously laughable)
Rivers is better than Eli, and Big Ben.. Had Rivers had his play-makers healthy all season he would still be considered the top QB of that class.

Furthermore, I don't think it's fair to say SD has elite talent and NYG have marginal talent.


jets (all talk, stack up well on paper, get blown away because qb can't hang on the biggest of stages. he is pretty good in the playoffs, but just not even in the ballpark overall)
So Sanchez is good in the playoffs, but he can't hang on the biggest of stages? Seems slightly contradictory.

This teams problems stem from the top, Sanchez has been developed quite poorly, and they're far from being an elite talent without a QB.


cowboys (close to double digit pro bowlers frequently, qb can't win late)
they have a lot of problems, Romo is not one of them.

lions (they will be good, but right now they're a collection of really high draft picks and an aging core. stafford can't overcome this yet)
Stafford has been healthy for one full year, and it's safe to say if he repeats his #s he'll widely be considered better than Eli and Ben, the guy had 40 TDs in his first full season, that's unreal.


cardinals (fitzgerald will always put up numbers, but without a qb they can't put up wins and that describes a lot of teams Having an elite #1 WR does not mean you have a team with elite talent, and the cardinals do not have a team with elite talent.

Elite teams w/ marginal QB play are teams like the Ravens/49ers

[The Dude]

rams cant pic at 2 so need to tarde but really only washD.C and clevland can have pics for it gotta improve the offense & get downfield rgiii is theone we have to get num 2

[The Tris]

I love Griffin, and Luck... for obvious reasons. But this "once in a lifetime" BS is only because we are tired of having mediocre crap at the QB position. If we didnt get one this year, some of ya'll would be saying that Logan Thomas, Tyler Bray, Matt Barkley, Aaron Murray, etc. are "Once in a lifetime" as well. The truth is, the QB position is evolving and its going to be harder in the next few years and in the future to find a QB that doesn't run just as well as he passes. Slow QB's are few and far between and will eventually be non-existent IMO. My point being that next years crop will be dominant as well. Oh, and I forgot Landry Jones and Tyler Wilson (my choice for #1 overall next year)

Kinda like how dominant this years crop of QBs was going to be when it included Barkley, Jones, and Wilson?

Only Barkley and Smith are guaranteed to come out next year. Gambling on underclassmen to come out is a risky (and unwise) proposition.

What if just the two of them come out, and we are picking in the 8-12 range next year, what then? Guess we'll just wait for 2014, which is REALLY when the dominant class comes out...

[Champskins]

Kinda like how dominant this years crop of QBs was going to be when it included Jones and Wilson?

Only Barkley and Smith are guaranteed to come out next year. Gambling on underclassmen to come out is a risky (and unwise) proposition.

What if just the two of them come out, and we are picking in the 8-12 range next year, what then? Guess we'll just wait for 2014, which is REALLY when the dominant class comes out...

Thanks, you just helped my point. I was simply stating exactly that, every year there seems to be GOAT's. Obviously I want RGIII if you couldnt tell by my sig. Just saying that there will always be another "once in a lifetime" player.

[amm0409]

I would say this...if we cant get RGIII or Luck i wouldn't draft any other QB in this draft. Tannehill will need to be drafted if we want him at 6. He's not going to be there in the 2nd or late 1st. If we can't get RGIII or Luck well i guess we just go into the season with Orton or whoever we bring in. No other guy is worth a pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. The way i look at it, if we are going to go after a 1st round talent next year (which we should if we cant get one of the top 2 this year) why waste a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year.

I dont want to, but if the price is too much, sign Orton or another FA QB and use all of our picks or trade back in the early to late 20's and pick up another 1st rounder for next year. I dont want to do this. I want RGIII or Luck but if we dont get one of them i dont want to waste a pick on a QB. Just my thoughts.

And IMO anyhing more than two 1sts and and a 2nd seems too high.

I see what your saying, but let's say we don't get our QB this year Luck or RGIII and end up with a guy like Orton and get the same record next year putting us in the same spot in next years draft missing out on the top two again like Barkley and Jones etc...

This is where talk goes on about loosing out unfortunately. As much as QB is a risk drafting with the two top picks somewhere along the lines we really need to think about moving up

[The Tris]

Thanks, you just helped my point. I was simply stating exactly that, every year there seems to be GOAT's. Obviously I want RGIII if you couldnt tell by my sig. Just saying that there will always be another "once in a lifetime" player.

But not necessarily one that is a) for sale, and b) within our price range.

[Champskins]

But not necessarily one that is a) for sale, and b) within our price range.

They are always within reach, just depends on what you're willing to give. Like I stated before, the most i'd personally be willing to give up would be our 1,2,3 this year and our 2 next year, thats it. 2 firsts alone would be overkill on the value system. If it would come with two firsts then I would do it.... but then we'd keep our 2nds and 3rds, etc. I thought giving up all of those picks to the Browns to move up for Julio Jones was a joke and I still do. Great player, but they certainly weren't one step away from the SB.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

You'll never believe it, but we disagree, A LOT in this post.


What has Brady won since his elite defense left? Names like Seymour, Vrabel, McGinest, Harrison, Seau are frequently forgotten on this website. Then there's his o-line, in my opinion Brady doesn't make his line look good rather it's vice versa, they make him look great. Few QBs I can recall that not only get the amount of time Brady gets, but also get a pocket as clean as Brady gets, consistently room to step up into a throw.

That's why their OL gave up 48 sacks the year they didn't have him. And uh, do you call going to 2 Super Bowls "not winning anything"?


Furthermore, the Pats were 11-5 without Brady, and 12-4 with him the next year. The obvious counter-point is the Pats were 16-0 the year before, still this averages out to 3 game difference between Brady and Cassel.

I honestly think the 10-6 year was down to scheduling. At the Colts, at the Saints, at a much stronger Jets team - at a 7-9 Miami team that always plays the Pats tough at home - they were undefeated at home until the Ravens game.

And it's not like Cassel is a "bad" QB. Just not a franchise one.


I disagree they're a marginal team. The Giants were a team with a marginal record due to injuries, however they got both healthy and hot at the right time of the year.

They don't really have "stud" talent outside DL and WR even when healthy, and both their tackles were atrocious. And fact is, without Eli, I doubt they even get close to the playoffs.

Ben can't "win" big games he can be the QB of a team that wins big games, in large part because there defense frequently holds high scoring offense to minimal outputs.




Rivers is better than Eli, and Big Ben.. Had Rivers had his play-makers healthy all season he would still be considered the top QB of that class.

Rivers actually hurts the argument I think you're trying to make. That's team is about 4 to 6 wins better than it would be just because Rivers is there. Joke coaching, and the team is falling apart.


So Sanchez is good in the playoffs, but he can't hang on the biggest of stages? Seems slightly contradictory.

Sanchez is below-average in the RS and above-average in the playoffs. Still lost to Peyton (I carry 2-14 teams on my back) Manning.


they have a lot of problems, Romo is not one of them.

Again, Dallas is a 3-13 team that looks like an 8-8 team because of Romo.



Elite teams w/ marginal QB play are teams like the Ravens/49ers

Flacco is better than marginal (marginal QBs don't make the TD pass that was "dropped", for example) but he's not elite. The 49ers will be good but they won't go 13-3 again until Alex Smith makes a giant leap forward. Smith was really the 3rd best player on offense, behind Gore and Davis. Their OL is awful, their WRs are averageish.

tl;dr, you both got it wrong.

[Califan007]

Thanks, you just helped my point. I was simply stating exactly that, every year there seems to be GOAT's. Obviously I want RGIII if you couldnt tell by my sig. Just saying that there will always be another "once in a lifetime" player.

When was the last time a QB was deemed a "once in a lifetime player"?

[Champskins]

When was the last time a QB was deemed a "once in a lifetime player"?

Sam Bradford for one... Cam Newton last year.... its a vicious circle

[The Tris]

They are always within reach, just depends on what you're willing to give.

Sam Bradford was not within reach in 2010. We were prepared to give up substantial picks for him, and weren't able to.

The ONLY reason RGIII is for sale is because the team picking at #2 has a young franchise QB.

And usually, teams with young franchise QBs are not picking in the top 5.

So this is not a frequent event. Saying they're "always within reach" is just ignorant.

[Champskins]

Sam Bradford was not within reach.

The ONLY reason RGIII is for sale is because the team picking at #2 has a young franchise QB.

And usually, teams with young franchise QBs are not picking in the top 5.

So this is not a frequent event. Saying they're "always within reach" is just ignorant.

That is comparing #1's. If it were Luck then Id agree, there's no chance anyone has at getting him, just like the case with Bradford. We could have had the second QB off the board last year (this year RG3) if we would have traded up which would have been Locker, but Shanny wasn't quick enough on the trigger. This year its the same thing and I'm sure it will be next year. There's usually one top prospect that's going #1 and a slightly lesser equivalent that's up for grabs. Do I pray we get RG3, yes... but simply stating that there is a way. I don't think in history that we've ever had the #1 QB - besides Harry Gilmer in 1948 lol

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

rams cant pic at 2 so need to tarde but really only washD.C and clevland can have pics for it gotta improve the offense & get downfield rgiii is theone we have to get num 2

Well said. Well spoken. Well stated.

[Skin'Em84]

Everyone is going to feel differently about this...

Do you want to wait another 10 yrs. for a once in a lifetime talent behind center or would you rather gamble for it this yr. while we have the luxury to do so.

You don't hear the Giants complaining now, do you?

BTW, what many are failing to realize is that we will still have FA to fulfill our roster needs as well.

You can't say he's a once in a lifetime talent when you have Luck in the same draft, Rodgers, Peyton, Stafford, Eli, Brees, Brady, Rivers, Ryan and Rothlisberger in the league.

There's a franchise QB in almost every draft. No need to mortgage the future to get one this year. I'm fine with this year's 1,2 and even 3 being traded, but I don't want to trade any of next year's picks just in case Griffin doesn't pan out.

[War Paint]

rams cant pic at 2 so need to tarde but really only washD.C and clevland can have pics for it gotta improve the offense & get downfield rgiii is theone we have to get num 2

Did you type that with your nose?

[fancrazyskin]

I was against giving up picks to Draft RGIII but the more I contemplate I see that bring in Orton or even Manning it's just not worth the trouble. Orton at best is a career back up, Manning we would have to retool the offense to fit his talents which would mean for a lot of players learning a new offense again. I don't see Orton being that much better than Rex and if Manning does have a clean bill of health to play we get 2 to 4yrs max. than what, we are back to square one casing that Franchise quarterback again. As the OP stated if Shanny drafts RGIII and his a flop than his job would be in jeopardy. I look at it like this his job security is on thin ice if he has another sub .500 season so i say go all in what does he have to lose.

[Champskins]

Sam Bradford was not within reach in 2010. We were prepared to give up substantial picks for him, and weren't able to.

The ONLY reason RGIII is for sale is because the team picking at #2 has a young franchise QB.

And usually, teams with young franchise QBs are not picking in the top 5.

So this is not a frequent event. Saying they're "always within reach" is just ignorant.

Everything has a price. Call it ignorant if you want, or call it the "truth" like it is.

[tiger187126]

..snip...

i don't have much time so i'm not going to go 1 by 1 although i always do appreciate a run down like that.

i think you're mistaking "puts up numbers" and "elite."

i was a non-believer when it came to ben after his first two SBs, but he's more than just a care taker. he makes more plays single handidly than probably any other qb in the league. he constantly has an atrocious, laughable o-line, but his career QB Rating? 92.1, add that to 3 SB appearances and 2 wins, one of which came on one of the best plays in any super bowls and i believe he is absolutely elite. like i said about the defense, they get more credit than they deserve.

2005 (defense obviously huge)
2006 (bad season by ben, no playoffs)
2007 lost 31-29 to jacksonville
2008 win 35-24 over SD, 23-14 over BAL, 27-23 over AZ (average score of AZ playoff game before SB 31-20, so not a herculean effort by D)
2009 100.5 qb rating and no playoffs
2010 31-24 over BAL, 24-19 over NYJ, 31-25 L to GB
2011 29-23 L in OT to Denver

the last 3-4 years ben has carried the team more than the defense.

brady: the oline vs. qb is chicken and egg, but let's say they're mutually beneficial to each other.

since brady has been starting qb:
2001 SB Win
2002 9-7 no playoffs
2003 SB Win
2004 SB Win
2005 2nd Round
2006 AFC Champ Game
2007 SB Loss (18-1, rewrote history books)
2008 Torn ACL (cassel goes 11-5 they miss playoffs)
2009 Round 1 Loss
2010 Round 1 Loss
2011 SB Loss

that's 1 playoff missed since he's been in the league, which is also what happened when he missed a season. brady does not have elite talent around him and he drove an offense with mostly no name receivers and without a running game for the last couple of years.

the giants are marginal, actually philly this year should have been on my list of teams with talent and marginal qb play they are a great example. there are not elite players on the giants team, except stacked at 1 position which is DE. giants got hot, but who was the key elite player that came back to spark their run? jake ballard?

rivers is a fantasy QB who plays in a weaker division. he and eli came in the league the same year, rivers got brees traded and has had a much better collection of talent around him and this is what he's done:
2006 1st round loss to Brady 24-21
2007 AFC Champ loss to Brady 21-12 (did beat peyton 28-24 in indy)
2008 2nd round loss to Big Ben 35-24 (beat peyton again 23-17 in OT, in SD this time)
2009 1st round loss to Sanchize 17-14 at home
2010 9-7 no playoffs
2011 8-8 no playoffs

i was just remarking sanchez has pretty good playoff stats for the bum that he is during the regular season, but AFC Championship games? he starts to revert.

romo does not win late in the season.

romo in december or later:
2006 2-4
2007 2-3
2008 1-3
2009 4-3
2010 3-2
2011 1-3 (injured early in 4th loss)

stafford is the numbers argument, but he's too early to judge.

ravens/49ers good examples, i just put AZ because the guy i was responding to had fitz as an example of an elite non-qb, i was pointing out that it doesn't matter.

[illone]

That's like asking are the Skins too eager to win ball games?

Are they too eager to try to improve the most important position on the field?

I'd say no in all cases.

[Califan007]

Sam Bradford for one... Cam Newton last year.... its a vicious circle

Cam Newton? lol :ols:...Please. There were NUMEROUS sportswriters, analysts and fans who thought he would be a bust if taken #1 overall.

---------- Post added February-28th-2012 at 11:39 AM ----------


That is comparing #1's. If it were Luck then Id agree, there's no chance anyone has at getting him, just like the case with Bradford. We could have had the second QB off the board last year (this year RG3)...

Sorry, but this year you might as well look at Luck and Griffin as #1A and #1B.

[bedlamVR]

So u are saying u would rather have 1 elite QB(tom brady) then 5 elite players (Ware, Suh,L. Fitzgarald, C. Johnson, and Revis?). Wow hmm I will take the 5 elite players plz. I would feel i could buld a hell of a defense around those players and a nice O.

I would get the 1 QB who has been to most of the superbowls in the last decade rather than a bunch of stars with one ring between them ....

[Califan007]

romo does not win late in the season.

romo in december or later:
2006 2-4
2007 2-3
2008 1-3
2009 4-3
2010 3-2
2011 1-3 (injured early in 4th loss)

Romo didn't play in December in 2010...he was injured. So that 3-2 record doesn't belong to him, it belongs to Kitna.

[Champskins]

Cam Newton? lol :ols:...Please. There were NUMEROUS sportswriters, analysts and fans who thought he would be a bust if taken #1 overall.[COLOR="Gold"]

Sorry, but this year you might as well look at Luck and Griffin as #1A and #1B.

Can't both be taken #1, that's my point. Lots of people had Gabbert and Newton as 1A and 1B as well. Have either played a down in the NFL yet, no. Same was the case for those two. But here's to hoping for RG3

[ucfSKINS]

I would love to speculate as well, but to do so before FA starts is just a waste.

We will have a MUCH better idea of what teams, including the Skins, will do afterwards. Until then....

[HailToTheRedskins14]

I like Geno Smith, good call. Its going to be sick next year. Depending on how the year plays out you'll have Tyler Bray, Tyler Wilson, Logan Thomas, Geno Smith, Matt Barkley, Aaron Murray, Landry Jones... just off the top of my head.


I'm a Georgia fan and don't understand the love for Aaron Murray. A good college QB that won't do anything in the NFL. He lives in the film room, but he just doesn't have the athleticism. I'd be surprised if he got drafted next year. He's like 5'10.

[Champskins]

I'm a Georgia fan and don't understand the love for Aaron Murray. A good college QB that won't do anything in the NFL. He lives in the film room, but he just doesn't have the athleticism. I'd be surprised if he got drafted next year. He's like 5'10.

Aaron Murray is the king of sliding to open throwing lanes, negating his height issue (listed at 6'1). He's accurate, consistent, and has great decision making and leadership skills. He may not be #1 overall, but don't let the height fool you. RG3 is 6'2 and Vick is 6'0 and Brees is 5'10. I think Russel Wilson will make for a fine NFL QB and he's 5'10 as well. Id compare Murray to Wilson right now

[Prototype]

Referring to the topic's title, "Are the Redskins too eager to trade to No. 2", we can observe a few things: 1. We haven't had a franchise QB in 20 years. 2. We have absolutely no playmakers on the offensive side of the ball. 3. We don't have a single marketable player on our team. 4. We have been linked to every free agent QB the last 20 years. 5. See 1-4.

Short Answer: Yes

And we should be.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

Referring to the topic's title, "Are the Redskins too eager to trade to No. 2", we can observe a few things: 1. We haven't had a franchise QB in 20 years. 2. We have absolutely no playmakers on the offensive side of the ball. 3. We don't have a single marketable player on our team. 4. We have been linked to every free agent QB the last 20 years. 5. See 1-4.

Short Answer: Yes

And we should be.

Well said. :applause:

[Skins3000]

Giants traded a 1st and a 3rd. Not 4-5 picks as some are saying around here. Big diff

In 2004 the rookie wage scale was ridiculous compared to now the scale is reasonable so that has played a part in more picks also.

[Jim Bob]

If RGIII turns into a franchise QB, then the price to move up will be worth it.

The Giants don't regret what they gave up to get Eli, right?

[Skins3000]

I just listened to these idiots Czabe and Polian on the Sports Reporters and Czabe does not seem to understand the value chart of the picks equaling a number one. Thus in essence the 2nd and 3rd pick would equal a number one. At the end of the day, the Skins have not had a franchise qb since Sonny Jergenson in my opinion. The Skins have had nothing but one hit wonders in the Super Bowl runs and now the Skins have a chance to finally get our own Aaron Rodgers and everyone is crying over the possibility of drafting a good player to say the least with the draft picks being given up. The kid is the real deal, the organization is not going anywhere until the issue is resolved. Look at the Lions a team that was 0 and 16 in 2008 took a chance on Stafford and the team is in the playoffs three years later. Absurd. This franchise is not even sniffing the playoffs right now but going in the right direction but have to make the bold move in the draft not free agency.

[DCchillin89]

I would trade a nut and/or kidney. No joke. Whatever it takes to take this generational talent.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

I have to put a disclaimer prior to this statement because I don't mean "you" in the sense of pointing any one person out. I simply mean "you" in general.

Who are you to say what is and isn't a fair price to pay for any player? The asking price is going to be what it is. The real question is whether or not our coach and FO feels the player is worth the price.

If they do, then the market price is what it is. You won't buy an SLS AMG at retail. You'll pay market price based on availability. If RGIII is a question of supply and demand and Shanahan wants him, he'll be had at market value even if it seems to be "too costly/high a price" to us.

Does Shanahan feel like RGIII is a once in a decade type of franchise qb? That's the question, not the cost.

[arundelredskin]

If not Griffin,do you think Tannehill is a better option.Sometimes 1st and second picks arent always the greatest.Look at Big Ben he was drafted 24th,Rodgers 11th.I dont think Weedens good hes too old.

[Califan007]

If not Griffin,do you think Tannehill is a better option.Sometimes 1st and second picks arent always the greatest.Look at Big Ben he was drafted 24th,Rodgers 11th.I dont think Weedens good hes too old.
You got that backwards lol...Big Ben was drafted 11th...Rodgers, 24th.

[HailGreen28]

If not Griffin,do you think Tannehill is a better option.Sometimes 1st and second picks arent always the greatest.Look at Big Ben he was drafted 24th,Rodgers 11th.I dont think Weedens good hes too old.Good point.

Minor nitpick, you swapped the picks the QBs were drafted with.

edit: Darn you Califan!!!!!!11111 :silly:

[Flycoach]

I just listened to these idiots Czabe and Polian on the Sports Reporters and Czabe does not seem to understand the value chart of the picks equaling a number one. Thus in essence the 2nd and 3rd pick would equal a number one. At the end of the day, the Skins have not had a franchise qb since Sonny Jergenson in my opinion. The Skins have had nothing but one hit wonders in the Super Bowl runs and now the Skins have a chance to finally get our own Aaron Rodgers and everyone is crying over the possibility of drafting a good player to say the least with the draft picks being given up. The kid is the real deal, the organization is not going anywhere until the issue is resolved. Look at the Lions a team that was 0 and 16 in 2008 took a chance on Stafford and the team is in the playoffs three years later. Absurd. This franchise is not even sniffing the playoffs right now but going in the right direction but have to make the bold move in the draft not free agency.

I agree 100%

[SkinFaninOKC]

This is the draft to gamble and get the guy you need. Next years QB draft class won't get that kind of respect. We are $47 million under the cap (I think) so ridiculous as it sounds couldn't we give the Rams a good number of draft picks for RG III this year then turn around next season, hopefully with a ton of cap space for free agency next season to make other improvements? On top of this we still need Grossman because if we end up with Tannehill or Weeden those two aren't sniffing the field next season barring an injury. Then, hopefully not, if we don't end up with RG III we end up with the Barkley/Jones/Out Of Nowhere QB scenario in 2013 with the possibility that Shanahan being on the hot seat for 2014. I realize this is a bunch of crazy talk but thats how I feel.

[glongest]

We have no idea how eager they are to trade unless you believe all the speculation on this board which I don't.

As far as our O line was concerned, I thought they played pretty well and I think the statistics bear that out. The problem with the offense was to many turnovers and not being able to score touchdowns. I don't really put much of that on the line. In terms of RG III, imagine how much better your line would be with a mobile quarterback rather than what we have at present which is someone who can't see over the line and is a sitting duck in terms of mobility. The opposing defense has to actually game plan for a mobile quarterback rather than just meeting at the quarterback. I am not that concerned about the line.

[Califan007]

Well, weren't we already set back at least 5 years by beating the Seahawks?...And then set back another 5 years by beating the Giants??...

We obviously have no shot whatsoever at drafting RG3--those two wins guaranteed that...and all the other QBs in the draft will be no better than Jordan Palmer.

So why are we even following any of this? lol...

[SkinsHokieFan]

Well, weren't we already set back at least 5 years by beating the Seahawks?...And then set back another 5 years by beating the Giants??...

We obviously have no shot whatsoever at drafting RG3--those two wins guaranteed that...and all the other QBs in the draft will be no better than Jordan Palmer.

So why are we even following any of this? lol...

Just imagine the position we would be in if we lost one of those games

We'd have the 4th pick, not Cleveland :)

[elkabong82]

Just imagine the position we would be in if we lost one of those games

We'd have the 4th pick, not Cleveland :)

Imagine if we had lost more games than St. Louis and had the 2nd pick, but then our team wouldn't have been in close competition with most opponents and would be in much worse shape, and the direction of the team would be in great doubt and the players wouldn't be as committed to the team as they are now. Two sides to every coin. The more you lose the more problems you have. For example Cleveland lost more games, and aren't in a position where they can really get into a bidding war over RG3 like we can.

[GWinSkins83]

Just imagine the position we would be in if we lost one of those games

We'd have the 4th pick, not Cleveland :)

And that was wht I was saying whn we beat Seattle. But Im never mad beating the Giants.

[Califan007]

Just imagine the position we would be in if we lost one of those games

We'd have the 4th pick, not Cleveland :)

Unless Cleveland also lost an extra game lol ;)...

Besides, those wins have made it impossible for us to draft--or even find--a franchise QB this year, or ANY year for the next 5-10 years. So why are we acting like we actually might have a shot?

[SJValleySkinz]

This is the draft to gamble and get the guy you need. Next years QB draft class won't get that kind of respect. We are $47 million under the cap (I think) so ridiculous as it sounds couldn't we give the Rams a good number of draft picks for RG III this year then turn around next season, hopefully with a ton of cap space for free agency next season to make other improvements? On top of this we still need Grossman because if we end up with Tannehill or Weeden those two aren't sniffing the field next season barring an injury. Then, hopefully not, if we don't end up with RG III we end up with the Barkley/Jones/Out Of Nowhere QB scenario in 2013 with the possibility that Shanahan being on the hot seat for 2014. I realize this is a bunch of crazy talk but thats how I feel.

Too early to tell first of all but even if you just look at the seniors beyond Barkley you have Landry Jones and Tyler Wilson who have heaps of talent and could be top 10 picks if they finally put it all together. From the underclassmen you could have Tyler Bray who has all the makings of a franchise QB and going a little deeper there is Aaron Murray and Logan Thomas who could be first round picks. If anything next year's QB class could be better.

[Prototype]

Too early to tell first of all but even if you just look at the seniors beyond Barkley you have Landry Jones and Tyler Wilson who have heaps of talent and could be top 10 picks if they finally put it all together. From the underclassmen you could have Tyler Bray who has all the makings of a franchise QB and going a little deeper there is Aaron Murray and Logan Thomas who could be first round picks. If anything next year's QB class could be better.

That's all fine and dandy, but do any of them have a Masters, 3.7 GPA, leadership qualities, and can run a 4.38?

[Jumbo]

Just imagine the position we would be in if we lost one of those games

We'd have the 4th pick, not Cleveland :)


Since this keeps coming up again recently...

Just imagine the people who got banned last season (usually under the trolling rule) after a lot of rope was given when they repeatedly cheered for a Redskins loss in threads (particularly on gameday) or gave crap to members who wanted to win.You barely survived yourself, and that was totally due ONLY to what a valued member you are and your super-clean history and it didn't hurt that I love you. :)

We had never seen that behavior here before to anything like that extent and it is unacceptable on ES. Others who couldn't claim those first two conditions I said you met were not as fortunate. So I'll get this out there now (while not "okaying" an extended off-topic exchange with anyone). Anyone can have any opinion on that they want on all that, but how it went down fits the rules, and I can personally guarantee you there will be less tolerance for it next season (or from here on in if applicable) no matter what happens on the field. :)

[pilsburypgh]

Imagine if we had lost more games than St. Louis and had the 2nd pick, but then our team wouldn't have been in close competition with most opponents and would be in much worse shape, and the direction of the team would be in great doubt and the players wouldn't be as committed to the team as they are now. Two sides to every coin. The more you lose the more problems you have. For example Cleveland lost more games, and aren't in a position where they can really get into a bidding war over RG3 like we can.Ha, we are no better than the rams dude. Matter of fact I bet they would beat us if we played them today. Yet they are in a far better position than us for their future. Thanks to losing. Football has changed. Totally different philosophy today.

[Califan007]

Since this keeps coming up again recently...

Just imagine the people who got banned last season (usually under the trolling rule) after a lot of rope was given when they repeatedly cheered for a Redskins loss in threads (particularly on gameday) or gave crap to members who wanted to win.You barely survived yourself, and that was totally due ONLY to what a valued member you are and your super-clean history and it didn't hurt that I love you. :)

We had never seen that behavior here before to anything like that extent and it is unacceptable on ES. Others who couldn't claim those first two conditions I said you met were not as fortunate. So I'll get this out there now (while not "okaying" an extended off-topic exchange with anyone). Anyone can have any opinion on that they want on all that, but how it went down fits the rules, and I can personally guarantee you there will be less tolerance for it next season (or from here on in if applicable) no matter what happens on the field. :)

Does that apply to signatures? lol...

[Oldskool]

A first, a third and Philip Rivers who was selected with the fourth pick the same year.

So they effectively traded two first round picks and a third to move up from #4 to #1. We're moving from #6 to #2. Technically one more spot, but slightly less according to the trade value chart.

Important to consider though that St. Louis Rams aren't in the position to be bullied like San Diego were. San Diego had picked a player that didn't want to play for them. They had much less room to manoeuvre and still managed to get a very decent haul of players/draft picks.


If it comes down to 2-1st round picks and a 3rd+4th this year, then that's suitable.

What is being bantered around is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th this year +1st (and maybe more) next year. That haul is absurd for a player that has had only one great year of production and an excellent combine (workout warrior?).

For example let me do a quick mock

1st round OT Reiff
2nd round QB Tannehill
3rd round WR Jones
4th round CB Fleming

2011 1st rounder (lets be generous and say Skins pick #16 overall)

Day by day im not liking giving up the farm for one guy with a shallow track record.

[SJValleySkinz]

That's all fine and dandy, but do any of them have a Masters, 3.7 GPA, leadership qualities, and can run a 4.38?

I get it, Griffin could uneat god in heaven, nobody can touch him, etc...Barkley and Wilson in my opinion have a chance to be just as good, and have their own share of traits you look for in a franchise QB. They are different QB's and don't have his athleticism, but Barkley is just as accurate (if not more) and has all the leadership qualities you look for. Wilson's arm isn't all that weaker, if it all. From the QB's on that list, Barkley, Bray and Wilson have the ability to be just as good.

[arkowi]

Just imagine the position we would be in if we lost one of those games

We'd have the 4th pick, not Cleveland :)

By your rationale what if we tanked like 5 or 6 straight seasons. Why stop at one?

[Hitman21ST]

By your rationale what if we tanked like 5 or 6 straight seasons. Why stop at one?

I have an idea! Let's lose on purpose! CHAMPIONSHIP! :silly:

[nonniey]

I would say this...if we cant get RGIII or Luck i wouldn't draft any other QB in this draft. Tannehill will need to be drafted if we want him at 6. He's not going to be there in the 2nd or late 1st. If we can't get RGIII or Luck well i guess we just go into the season with Orton or whoever we bring in. No other guy is worth a pick in the 2nd or 3rd round. The way i look at it, if we are going to go after a 1st round talent next year (which we should if we cant get one of the top 2 this year) why waste a 2nd or 3rd round pick this year.

I dont want to, but if the price is too much, sign Orton or another FA QB and use all of our picks or trade back in the early to late 20's and pick up another 1st rounder for next year. I dont want to do this. I want RGIII or Luck but if we dont get one of them i dont want to waste a pick on a QB. Just my thoughts.


And IMO anyhing more than two 1sts and and a 2nd seems too high.

Absolutely agree with you. I've been saying this since the end of the season. If we can't get either Luck or Griffin we do everything we can to get ammunition to get Barkley next year. ( Although I would be willing to trade two firsts a 2d and a 3rd).

[joeknows]

Someone is gonna regret not getting this kid.... i just dont want it to be us!

[Missouri_Skins_Fan]

Someone is gonna regret not getting this kid.... i just dont want it to be us!

100% truth right there.

[Skins3000]

If it comes down to 2-1st round picks and a 3rd+4th this year, then that's suitable.

What is being bantered around is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th this year +1st (and maybe more) next year. That haul is absurd for a player that has had only one great year of production and an excellent combine (workout warrior?).

For example let me do a quick mock

1st round OT Reiff
2nd round QB Tannehill
3rd round WR Jones
4th round CB Fleming

2011 1st rounder (lets be generous and say Skins pick #16 overall)

Day by day im not liking giving up the farm for one guy with a shallow track record.

I am not remotely hearing no more than 1, 2, and 3 this year and a 1st next year. The Rams have made it clear they would like an Eli trade but when the Skins have allegedly the Browns, and a mystery team allegedly the Eagles looking at RG III what does that say about the player????? Teams scouting department must see something special on and off the field. If Griffin played for USC, Florida, Ohio State, or Texas I guarantee no one would question the kids progression in college. Griffin numbers increased dramatically every year and as I watched the combine I learn his team mates at Baylor were well below average compared to the larger universities. Wright ran a 4.67 forty, slow. Ganaway 4.67 forty time, slow and if you watched any of Baylor games these kids look like burners. Griffin made the players around him look better than what they are unlike Matt Barkley an average qb with a ton of talent surrounding Barkley at wr and offensive line but I guarantee you if Barkley was coming out some would want Barkley who measurables would be marginal. To say Griffin is a workout warrior is ridiculous simply because the kid produced on the field and just not at the combine.

[NewCliche21]

By your rationale what if we tanked like 5 or 6 straight seasons. Why stop at one?

That's not his rationale at all; that's your gross extrapolation of a simple innocuous point that he made.

[HigSkin]

On Mike&Mike, they're discussing something very similiar to tanking games. If the Vikes had not beaten the Skins, they'd own the #2 pick. Imaging Skins trying to deal with Vikes vs. Rams. Could be a completely differerent story, like not having a chance for RGiii. All things come full circle.

[Aghar]

Wow. Gets crazier by the day. Well, my take on all of this is simple. The bottom line is you really just won't know if trading up for RGIII was worth it until 5 or 10 years from now. No matter what we give up, if we do make this trade, it will be too much if the kid does not produce and win consistently. Heck, unless he wins a SB or two, like Eli, we will be taking about the "what ifs", and "we could have had this guy", with the picks we gave up as excuses why we are not in the SB 5 years from now. Bottom line is this. How much is too much for the #2 QB in the draft? There is talk that it may cost more than any #1 pick, EVER. That's insane! Someone asked where the line was between sanity and insanity, and there it is. I like RGIII. I think he's going to be a good one. But you can't take a flyer on a guy who isn't even the best player at his position coming out of college and sell off the farm for him. Regardless, of his upside. All prospects are a 50/50 gamble, especially at the QB position. And when you start taking about trading multiple #1's, 2's 3's, etc, the odds start stacking against you that you will come out on the right side of 50. I certainly hope Shanny and Allen are thinking the same thing. While I understand the fans who are starving for a FA QB, I am taking the cautious approach now that this kid's stock has hit an all time high and because of all the chips seemed to have aligned perfectly for the Rams at this very moment. Why not let FA start, let certain teams pick up FA QBs, and when the list of potential suitors for this kid dwindles, so will the asking price to trade up and get him?

For all of you so eager to trade away an unprecedented amount of draft picks for one player let me remind you of something. More than likely you were on the side of "I believe in how Shanny and Allen are building this thing through the draft and we need to be patient". If that is true, be patient now. If not, and this goes through and sets some record for draft day we all better hope we have rings in the next decade. If we don't Shanny is out of a job, RGII will be labeled a bust, and us as a fanbase will be scratching our heads wondering where our picks went and the seasons without a playoff appearance five years from now.

In the end, I hope this kid will be able to handle all the pressure too. Whoever gets him will be giving away alot for him, and he will realize that immediately. I hope he does pan out if he becomes a Redskin. I will certainly be screaming loud and proud if he is in the B&G next season. But if he doesn't work out and be at least as good as advertised...Oh boy....I will be listening to the media slamming my beloved team for the next decade. :doh:

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Ok this is my new stance on this. I heard Fisher on NFL radio and he said there is a guy they are targeting in the 1st round who he believes will fall possibly into the 2nd (which IMO is BS). Anyway he's playing the game, which he should. If i was Bruce and Mike i would tell the Rams our offer is two 1st and a 3rd or a 2nd (whatever our offer is). I would tell them thats our offer until FA starts. Once FA starts it's off the table. We cannot go into FA with the assumption we will get the 2nd pick. We need to go into FA thinking we have the 6th pick. I would then try my hardest to get the best FA QB for our team. If its Manning or FLynn or whoever else, fine. Now come draft day we have a QB. He may not be the long term answer but we have one. So now when the Rams call us we offer less, in a take it or leave it situation. If they want to move back and pick up an extra pick great if they dont well we either take Tannehill at 6 or we trade back and pick up more picks.

If we go into draft day with Rex as our only option we will NEED to trade up and the Rams can make us pay extra. If we have our QB, say a guy who can play very well for the next 2-3 years well the QB position isn't as big of a need. And we can sit at 6 and either take BPA or Tannehill. Simple as that. I know Bruce will do the right thing and i know he wont overpay for a player. He displayed that last year. I have a lot of confidence in him that at the end of the day we wont be embarrassed about what we gave up for a player like we have in the past.

[wildbill1952]

Someone is gonna regret not getting this kid.... i just dont want it to be us!McNabb, Vick, Young, Newton - loads of potential, no Championships. The "Athletic" QB starts winning when he stops using his legs and becomes a pocket passer. (See Elway, John) There are lots of games when he gives you something to cheer for, but again, in retrospect, would the Skins have produced a champioship by trading up to draft any of them? If we had the natural number two pick, I'd say RG III's the guy to get. But trading up 4 places by losing two firsts, a second and a third seems awfully high, especially with QB's in next year's draft and Tannehill at a lot cheaper price. Unless the plan is to let Cleveland get him by offering the same deal.

My feeling on whether it's worth it or not is going to come down to what the Skins find in FA. If they make major improvements in the OL (at least two starters, not castoffs other teams were getting rid of anyway), a new number one WR, and a starting cornerback, then I can see that the Skins have filled needs those precious draft picks could have fillled. But if all the Skins end up with is a shiny new QB with nothing around him, it's going to be more years of watching the bottom of the NFC East. This team + shiny new RG III is still a bad team.

[Missouri_Skins_Fan]

Imo...I want to get this done ASAP (get #2 pick)
But I think we should wait,till the Manning decision on March 8th.

If by some miracle, he stays in Indy and they pay him the 28M?
The Colts Pick POSSIBLY becomes up for grabs.

Then the Redskins can throw this bidding war, back in the face of the Rams.

"Well, if we have to pay that, then we'll just trade up with the Colts and have 2 options on what we want to do"

Have THEM compete against each other, on adding extra picks for their team & Redskins take the best "cheapest" offer.

Having 2 teams at #1 & #2 willing to deal down, could significantly lower the price or at the very least...prevent them from asking a ransom or more than a fair deal.

If the Colts would want
2 1sts...
a 2nd
& 2 3rds
for their Pick?

Then we know the Rams can go NO HIGHER than that.
Otherwise,the Rams lose out there from us & we deal with the Colts.
Boom!

And we should tell the Rams this, to get this deal to speed up and keep them from holding us over the barrel.

[SWFLSkins]

I have an idea! Let's lose on purpose! CHAMPIONSHIP! :silly:

In the same vein let's trade all of our picks this year for the number one next year.

[Son of Gadsden]

Everyone is going to feel differently about this...

Do you want to wait another 10 yrs. for a once in a lifetime talent behind center or would you rather gamble for it this yr. while we have the luxury to do so.

You don't hear the Giants complaining now, do you?

BTW, what many are failing to realize is that we will still have FA to fulfill our roster needs as well.

See, it's comments like this that bother me. (No offense to jeronimobrat, not trying to single you out)

See the problem with these statement is that you are saying RG3 is a once in a lifetime talent behind center...yet you refer to Eli Manning (drafted in 2004, about 8 years ago) as an example. Eight years is a lifetime? How about Bradford? He was also referred to as the QB of the decade. Everyone swore he was the next Brady/Manning and another QB of his caliber would not be available for 10 years. He was so damn talented and rare according to...well, everyone...yet now so many think the Rams should trade him and draft the new fad. Cam Newton wasn't played quite as high, but the next year everyone was high on him also. Now we have Luck and RG3...both being referred to the same way Bradford was as the "QB of the decade"...or in this case a lifetime. Next year, I suspect Barkley will be treated the same...and another after that.

The hype built up every year for the draft candidates is inconsistent and ridiculous. Every single year there is a QB of the decade. A decade is 10 years. I just don't get it. RG3 is good, but he is very unlikely to be the QB of a lifetime.

[pjfootballer]

Giants traded a 1st and a 3rd. Not 4-5 picks as some are saying around here. Big diff

Thing is, everyone including the media is just speculating what it would take. Only Fisher and the new GM in St Louis know at this point and even if they do know, they may not get what they want.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:27 AM ----------


Swapped 1's and a 2nd, 3rd, 1st for Griffin III is essentially 4 NFL starters that would improve a team in rebuilding. Are we REALLY in a position to trade 4 NFL starters for one Griffin III? Yes yes, I hear the battle cry for a "Franchise" signal caller. But you know what, this article is playing Devil's Advocate for a reason......to make us ask the "what if" questions before we trade the house (4 NFL Starters), for this one kid.

Just like there is no guarantee RG3 will be a great player (he could be a bust) you can't assume that the other 4 players will be starters.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:30 AM ----------


I would love to see RG3 here also, but there has to be a price that is to high. From a pick perspective, would u rather have RG3 or T. Williams, R. Kerrigan, P. Rilley, R. Helu, J. Jenkins, L. Hankerson. because that is about the trade we might be staring at. Not sure I would take the qb over all that talent.

You can't look at hindsight talent. Every player in this draft is an unknown. We gave up a 2nd round pick to Miami for Jason Taylor and they picked.....drumroll please....Pat White. Failbus.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:33 AM ----------


To be fair, the Skins also have the Worst wr's in the division by far.

Nice deflection!

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:36 AM ----------


Also, for the "I want to horde pick crowd" eventually you get dimishing returns and can only carry 53 players. Not every starter will be a pro-player and we are better off with a unit of guys who can play hard as a team.

Patriots have been hording picks for years and even though they went to the SB, I actually believe the team (overall) is getting worse because they aren't getting good value.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:38 AM ----------


I'm so sick of hearing this. Our O-Line is NOT THAT BAD. Also, a smart QB that can read defenses and make protection calls a la Peyton can drastically improve an offensive line.

QB is the most essential position in football. I don't give a **** if we bring the Hogs back - Rex Grossman would still lose us double digit games.

I am too. We have some good young talent and Shanallen has addressed the line more in 2 years then Vinny did in 10. Some people still live in the 80s. You could have a dominant line in the 80s and win. You have to have a dominant QB nowadays.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:40 AM ----------


Indeed. But at the same time, our FA signings last year were reasonable. No real big overpayments. But at the same time, those players have to want to come here.

I'd like to see how we do in FA this year before I consider any type of draft trade like this. If we can fill some holes and add some depth, then fine. But if we struggle/aren't aggresive in FA, we should probably keep those picks. Carr, Gay, Bryant, Williams, Colston, Jackson, Nicks. They all look good, but can anyone honestly say we're going to get everyone that we want? And even if we do, let's not forget what happened to the "Dream Team"... it doesn't always lead directly to sucess.

Alot of those players you listed are what our fans want. I doubt we even sign more than 1 of those guys. Maybe Carr and Colston if I had to guess, but this FO wants good value and guys who fit the system.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 09:46 AM ----------


He's far from a one year wonder. The difference was his team actually won games this year, and that's always been what gets you noticed in the Heisman conversation. Look at Griffin's career numbers - he improved every year in college, especially transitioning more from a running QB to a passer.

I understand your spread QB reservations, I have plenty myself, but I think RG3 is the exception to the rule.

What some people don't realize is, the spread offense is already in the NFL. Brady, Peyton and Rodgers run a form of the spread offense. Brady and Peyton are in shotgun most of the time,

[Pick6]

McNabb, Vick, Young, Newton - loads of potential, no Championships. The "Athletic" QB starts winning when he stops using his legs and becomes a pocket passer. (See Elway, John) There are lots of games when he gives you something to cheer for, but again, in retrospect, would the Skins have produced a champioship by trading up to draft any of them? If we had the natural number two pick, I'd say RG III's the guy to get. But trading up 4 places by losing two firsts, a second and a third seems awfully high, especially with QB's in next year's draft and Tannehill at a lot cheaper price. Unless the plan is to let Cleveland get him by offering the same deal.

My feeling on whether it's worth it or not is going to come down to what the Skins find in FA. If they make major improvements in the OL (at least two starters, not castoffs other teams were getting rid of anyway), a new number one WR, and a starting cornerback, then I can see that the Skins have filled needs those precious draft picks could have fillled. But if all the Skins end up with is a shiny new QB with nothing around him, it's going to be more years of watching the bottom of the NFC East. This team + shiny new RG III is still a bad team.

This team plus Tannehill = a loser for another decade and a lot of 8-8 seasons. You put RG3 in the same category as Newton, Young, Vick, and McNabb shows you are not fairly evaluating him. He is a look down the field and pass first kind of guy. It would be better to compare him to Steve Young. I don't know what RG3 career will look like, but I hope for the best. Go watch some tape on him and think you will see what everyone else sees.

[Champskins]

This team plus Tannehill = a loser for another decade and a lot of 8-8 seasons. You put RG3 in the same category as Newton, Young, Vick, and McNabb shows you are not fairly evaluating him. He is a look down the field and pass first kind of guy. It would be better to compare him to Steve Young. I don't know what RG3 career will look like, but I hope for the best. Go watch some tape on him and think you will see what everyone else sees.

How are you so sure on Tannehill? Seems to me your love of RG3 is getting in the way of making intelligent comments without insight. I love RG3 as well, but doesn't mean you can just trash Tannehill. Lord knows what you think of Weeden then...

[pjfootballer]

Romo didn't play in December in 2010...he was injured. So that 3-2 record doesn't belong to him, it belongs to Kitna.

Which makes it look even worse.

[Pick6]

How are you so sure on Tannehill? Seems to me your love of RG3 is getting in the way of making intelligent comments without insight. I love RG3 as well, but doesn't mean you can just trash Tannehill. Lord knows what you think of Weeden then...

Actually I like Weeden more than Tannehill, because he can be had for a lot cheaper. To me it is preceived value at this point or risk/reward. I just don't think Tannehill will be much better than a game manager. I could always be wrong, I thought Eli was lame for a long time and he is elite in my book now.

I also think it is extremely lazy at this point to compare RG3 to Vick, Newton, McNabb, or Young. That was more the point of my post.

[HigSkin]

Ok this is my new stance on this. I heard Fisher on NFL radio and he said there is a guy they are targeting in the 1st round who he believes will fall possibly into the 2nd (which IMO is BS). Anyway he's playing the game, which he should. If i was Bruce and Mike i would tell the Rams our offer is two 1st and a 3rd or a 2nd (whatever our offer is). I would tell them thats our offer until FA starts. Once FA starts it's off the table. We cannot go into FA with the assumption we will get the 2nd pick. We need to go into FA thinking we have the 6th pick. I would then try my hardest to get the best FA QB for our team. If its Manning or FLynn or whoever else, fine. Now come draft day we have a QB. He may not be the long term answer but we have one. So now when the Rams call us we offer less, in a take it or leave it situation. If they want to move back and pick up an extra pick great if they dont well we either take Tannehill at 6 or we trade back and pick up more picks.

If we go into draft day with Rex as our only option we will NEED to trade up and the Rams can make us pay extra. If we have our QB, say a guy who can play very well for the next 2-3 years well the QB position isn't as big of a need. And we can sit at 6 and either take BPA or Tannehill. Simple as that. I know Bruce will do the right thing and i know he wont overpay for a player. He displayed that last year. I have a lot of confidence in him that at the end of the day we wont be embarrassed about what we gave up for a player like we have in the past.

Finally, some level headedness. We've heard the Plan A and Plan B talk. If it's Manning then it's probably Tannehill and if it's RGiii then it's probably Orton in FA. IMO - both really good options.

[pjfootballer]

Here is the question that people who don't want to pull the trigger for Luck or RG3. Who on the Redskins offense currently, scares anyone on defense or who they have to gameplan for? Bueller? Ask yourself that question and then ask yourself the same question, but put Eagles, Giants and Cowboys in.

Giants- Nicks and Cruz, maybe Eli when he's hot

Eagles- Vick because of his running, Jackson because of his speed and McCoy for his shiftiness.

Cowboys- Austin (when he is healthy), Witten and Romo.

If I had to pick a guy on the Reskins it would be...Davis. And that's about it. I don't think teams fear or gameplan for him.

We need a guy behind center that will scare defenses with their arm, legs or head or all.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Here is the question that people who don't want to pull the trigger for Luck or RG3. Who on the Redskins offense currently, scares anyone on defense or who they have to gameplan for? Bueller? Ask yourself that question and then ask yourself the same question, but put Eagles, Giants and Cowboys in.

Giants- Nicks and Cruz, maybe Eli when he's hot

Eagles- Vick because of his running, Jackson because of his speed and McCoy for his shiftiness.

Cowboys- Austin (when he is healthy), Witten and Romo.

If I had to pick a guy on the Reskins it would be...Davis. And that's about it. I don't think teams fear or gameplan for him.

We need a guy behind center that will scare defenses with their arm, legs or head or all.

Im pretty sure you're making the point for those of us that dont want to trade the house for RGIII. What do all of those teams have in common? Every single one of them have multiple playmakers...and what else? They were all drafted by the team.

Giants- Bradshaw, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham, Eli
Eagles - Macklin, Djaz, McCoy, Vick (not drafted)
Cowboys - Dez, Austin, Witten, Romo

We have no one. Fred is a good player but i dont think he's a top TE. He puts up very good numbers b/c we have no one else to throw the ball to. Not bashing him at all. I want him back but teams aren't "scared" of him IMO

[Son of Gadsden]

Who on the Redskins offense currently, scares anyone on defense or who they have to gameplan for?

If I had to pick a guy on the Reskins it would be...Davis. And that's about it. I don't think teams fear or gameplan for him.



I disagree. Last time I got wasted with some friends and played some Madden against a Cowboy fan friend of mine, Grossman threw a slant to Moss on 3rd and 12 and moved the chains. My buddy had a melt down screaming "MOSS!? WHY!?! WHY IS IT ALWAYS MOSS!!!!"

I thought it was quite hilarious. I'd say there's some pent up frustration on the Cowboys there. :ols:

[Rocky52Mc]

Would you trade LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, Chad Rinehart, and Devin Thomas for Robert Griffin III? Because essentially that's what this is asking. And if you said no, that's cool too.

[War Paint]

Here is the question that people who don't want to pull the trigger for Luck or RG3. Who on the Redskins offense currently, scares anyone on defense or who they have to gameplan for? Bueller? Ask yourself that question and then ask yourself the same question, but put Eagles, Giants and Cowboys in.

Giants- Nicks and Cruz, maybe Eli when he's hot

Eagles- Vick because of his running, Jackson because of his speed and McCoy for his shiftiness.

Cowboys- Austin (when he is healthy), Witten and Romo.

If I had to pick a guy on the Reskins it would be...Davis. And that's about it. I don't think teams fear or gameplan for him.

We need a guy behind center that will scare defenses with their arm, legs or head or all.

I agree. Also, I will add that if we had an elite QB, it would make our current players on offense look a lot better. I can't count how many times when our WRs had to stop their stride to go for an underthrown ball, where if they had an elite QB that could hit them in stride, they would take it all the way for a TD or get a lot more yards. In other words, out of our average WRs, I think one or two could be above average with a much better QB. Our oline would probably look better too.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 11:01 AM ----------


Would you trade LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, Chad Rinehart, and Devin Thomas for Robert Griffin III? Because essentially that's what this is asking. And if you said no, that's cool too.

Yes, in a heartbeat.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Finally, some level headedness. We've heard the Plan A and Plan B talk. If it's Manning then it's probably Tannehill and if it's RGiii then it's probably Orton in FA. IMO - both really good options.

Problem there being... FA is well before the draft.

Manning will definitely be signed and Orton could be also signed by the time you are drafting.

So how do you decide what FA to sign when you don't yet know who you will have the opportunity to draft?

[Mahons21]

I agree. Also, I will add that if we had an elite QB, it would make our current players on offense look a lot better. I can't count how many times when our WRs had to stop their stride to go for an underthrown ball, where if they had an elite QB that could hit them in stride, they would take it all the way for a TD or get a lot more yards. In other words, out of our average WRs, I think one or two could be above average with a much better QB. Our oline would probably look better too.
None of our WRs are above average, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I mean come on man. Gaffney is still a possession receiver who doesn't get YAC no matter who throws him the ball, Moss is still a slowing wideout with questionable hands over the middle and his transition to the slot role hasn't gone as fans had hoped, no one else on the squad even deserves mention of being above average.

[War Paint]

None of our WRs are above average, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I mean come on man. Gaffney is still a possession receiver who doesn't get YAC no matter who throws him the ball, Moss is still a slowing wideout with questionable hands over the middle and his transition to the slot role hasn't gone as fans had hoped, no one else on the squad even deserves mention of being above average.

I didn't say they were above average. I basically said they could possibly look above average if they didn't have a turd throwing the ball. I'm not suggesting we are set at WR. I'm saying a turd QB makes all the other players look worse than they really are.

[Son of Gadsden]

Would you trade LaRon Landry, Carlos Rogers, Chad Rinehart, and Devin Thomas for Robert Griffin III? Because essentially that's what this is asking. And if you said no, that's cool too.

Not relevant. You are comparing Vinny's draft picks to Shanhan's draft picks. If you don't value those totally different, I just don't know what to say.

What would be relevant is trading Kerrigan *1st round*, Jenkins *2nd round*, Hankerson *3rd round*, Trent Williams *1st round*.


And to go farther into my point, Shanahan's two drafts with what he has had:

SHANAHAN'S DRAFTS

2011 - Washington Redskins

1 16 Ryan Kerrigan
2 41 Jarvis Jenkins
3 79 Leonard Hankerson
4 105 Roy Helu
5 146 DeJon Gomes
5 155 Niles Paul
6 177 Evan Royster
6 178 Aldrick Robinson
7 213 Brandyn Thompnson
7 217 Maurice Hurt
7 224 Markus White
7 253 Chris Neild

2010 - Washington Redskins

1 4 Trent Williams
4 103 Perry Riley
6 174 Dennis Morris
7 219 Terrence Austin
7 229 Erik Cook
7 231 Selvish Capers

VINNY'S DRAFTS

2009 - Washington Redskins

1 13 Brian Orakpo
3 80 Kevin Barnes
5 158 Cody Glenn
6 186 Robert Henson
7 221 Eddie Williams
7 243 Marko Mitchell

2008 - Washington Redskins

2 34 Devin Thomas
2 48 Fred Davis
2 51 Malcolm Kelly
3 96 Chad Rinehart
4 124 Justin Tryon
6 168 Durant Brooks
6 180 Kareem Moore
6 186 Colt Brennan
7 242 Rob Jackson
7 249 Chris Horton

Just saying.

[Mahons21]

I didn't say they were above average. I basically said they could possibly look above average if they didn't have a turd throwing the ball. I'm not suggesting we are set at WR. I'm saying a turd QB makes all the other players look worse than they really are.

And I'm saying that if Aaron Rodgers was throwing them the ball, they'd still have the same problems that prevent them from being above average WR, or "looking like above average WRs" because apparently there's a difference.

Rex didn't make anyone on this team look worst than they are in my opinion.

[PatFischer37]

I am not the first nor last to state that everything coming or leaking out of Ashburn is a smokescreen. Expect the unexpected from now until draft day

[GaryGreenMonk]

I am not the first nor last to state that everything coming or leaking out of Ashburn is a smokescreen. Expect the unexpected from now until draft day

well.. publically they've said nothing about RGIII.

We do however have a sort of public statement that MS really likes Weeden.

RGIII is the exact mold of a QB that MS likes. Mobile and athletic with an accurate deep ball. I think it is basically impossible to smokescreen anything when it's this obvious.

Personally I think it would be to their advantage at this point to just play the "all in" type card. Make it seem like no one will outbid them so it's pointless to try tactic.

[Mahons21]

I am not the first nor last to state that everything coming or leaking out of Ashburn is a smokescreen. Expect the unexpected from now until draft day

I agree with this 110%, MS has never been one to speak openly about who he likes, why would that change this year?

McNabb? Did anyone see that coming?

I have two theories as to why there would be a smokescreen.

1.) They're hoping Indy will hope on the hype train of RG3, and be willing to part ways with the 1st overall pick AKA andrew luck.

2.) They believe Tannehill is much better than perceived by the media.

[War Paint]

And I'm saying that if Aaron Rodgers was throwing them the ball, they'd still have the same problems that prevent them from being above average WR, or "looking like above average WRs" because apparently there's a difference.

Rex didn't make anyone on this team look worst than they are in my opinion.

I disagree.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 12:08 PM ----------

I'm surprised this thread has so many pages considering the article sucks and the writer seems to be clueless. Here's one of the writer's tweets.


InsaneBoost ‏

@SkinsOrNuthin @MrDCsports @ZsSkins @LL56_HTTR I'd draft Schuler again before I draft RGIII.


He'd draft Shuler again before RG3 lmao. How can anyone take this guy seriously?

[paloosa]

I am glad the fanbase isn't the GM of this team. We already one GM that set this team back 10 or 15 years in Cerrato. He made these outlandish type of deals that everyone gripes and complains about because they paid too much and didn't workout. Now comes along Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen and they make smart decisions about how to make the team competitive. They have a good draft, get rid of almost all of the dead weight, and the team starts to show promise by the players they drafted and now everyone wants to sell the farm, the very thing everyone despised, for a College Heisman Trophy winning, on year wonder QB that may or may not pan out. No player is worth that price even if it worked for the Giants and Eli Manning. But how did the all in for Ricky Williams to New Orleans draft work out? How many FA's signed for too much and trade away draft picks work for the Redskins? To me it is not worth to pay that price especially with all the holes we need to fill. The Redskins have been FA warriors far too long and it hasn't provided this team with anything with misery and mediocre seasons.

[War Paint]

I am glad the fanbase isn't the GM of this team. We already one GM that set this team back 10 or 15 years in Cerrato. He made these outlandish type of deals that everyone gripes and complains about because they paid too much and didn't workout. Now comes along Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen and they make smart decisions about how to make the team competitive. They have a good draft, get rid of almost all of the dead weight, and the team starts to show promise by the players they drafted and now everyone wants to sell the farm, the very thing everyone despised, for a College Heisman Trophy winning, on year wonder QB that may or may not pan out. No player is worth that price even if it worked for the Giants and Eli Manning. But how did the all in for Ricky Williams to New Orleans draft work out? How many FA's signed for too much and trade away draft picks work for the Redskins? To me it is not worth to pay that price especially with all the holes we need to fill. The Redskins have been FA warriors far too long and it hasn't provided this team with anything with misery and mediocre seasons.

Trading picks for a young QB prospect like RG3 is nothing like trading picks for TJ Ducket, Jason Taylor, Mark Brunell, McNabb, etc.....

[GaryGreenMonk]

I am glad the fanbase isn't the GM of this team. We already one GM that set this team back 10 or 15 years in Cerrato. He made these outlandish type of deals that everyone gripes and complains about because they paid too much and didn't workout. Now comes along Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen and they make smart decisions about how to make the team competitive. They have a good draft, get rid of almost all of the dead weight, and the team starts to show promise by the players they drafted and now everyone wants to sell the farm, the very thing everyone despised, for a College Heisman Trophy winning, on year wonder QB that may or may not pan out. No player is worth that price even if it worked for the Giants and Eli Manning. But how did the all in for Ricky Williams to New Orleans draft work out? How many FA's signed for too much and trade away draft picks work for the Redskins? To me it is not worth to pay that price especially with all the holes we need to fill. The Redskins have been FA warriors far too long and it hasn't provided this team with anything with misery and mediocre seasons.

You will NEVER win a superbowl without a franchise QB.

The Redskins will NEVER get a franchise QB without trading up in the draft.

If you want to ever win a SB.. you will have to at some point trade up to accquire your QB.

and then hope for the best.

[artmonkforHOF]

I think the price will be too high based on who we are competing with to get that #2 pick, mainly the Browns. Why would you drop a few spots in the draft and risk missing out on a good prospect, only to get an extra first next year a plus 3rd & 5th or whatever else is being talked about, when you can try and get two 1st from Cleveland this year and only move down 2 spots? Unless Allen & Shanny go all nutty and throw in something like Orakpo, I don't see them being able to compete with offers from other clubs.

FA QB here we come.

[Geneva]

No....no....he......no

[Son of Gadsden]

I agree with this 110%, MS has never been one to speak openly about who he likes, why would that change this year?

McNabb? Did anyone see that coming?

I have two theories as to why there would be a smokescreen.

1.) They're hoping Indy will hope on the hype train of RG3, and be willing to part ways with the 1st overall pick AKA andrew luck.

2.) They believe Tannehill is much better than perceived by the media.

This is the train I'm on too. Name one thing that MS has done that has been predicted early.

McNabb was a complete shock. We were DEFINITELY taking Okung. There's no way Washington passes on a QB in the 2011 draft. Gabbert was absolutely hours on pick 10. Ryan Harris was an absolute lock to be a Skin. Shanahan was either going to get Braylon or Holmes. Yeah. All that went so well.

[smoothie]

Trading picks for a young QB prospect like RG3 is nothing like trading picks for TJ Ducket, Jason Taylor, Mark Brunell, McNabb, etc.....

if you give up a bunch for an unproven player and he doesnt pan out it is!!

[War Paint]

I think the price will be too high based on who we are competing with to get that #2 pick, mainly the Browns. Why would you drop a few spots in the draft and risk missing out on a good prospect, only to get an extra first next year a plus 3rd & 5th or whatever else is being talked about, when you can try and get two 1st from Cleveland this year and only move down 2 spots? Unless Allen & Shanny go all nutty and throw in something like Orakpo, I don't see them being able to compete with offers from other clubs.

FA QB here we come.

Word is the Browns aren't eager to trade a bunch of picks. It's not like the Rams can't get a blue chip player at #6. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rams trade down again at #6. I think the Rams are going to do something similar to what we did last year, trade down a bunch and get a ton of picks. This is Fisher's first year. I think he wants several additional picks for this year and next year. His first year is going to be more of an evaluation of the team and players. I'm sure he wants a lot of ammo in next year's draft also.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 01:15 PM ----------


if you give up a bunch for an unproven player and he doesnt pan out it is!!

If it doesn't pan out we'll just continue to be a 5-11 team like we've been for years. We have nothing to lose.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

If it comes down to 2-1st round picks and a 3rd+4th this year, then that's suitable.

What is being bantered around is 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th this year +1st (and maybe more) next year. That haul is absurd for a player that has had only one great year of production and an excellent combine (workout warrior?).

For example let me do a quick mock

1st round OT Reiff
2nd round QB Tannehill
3rd round WR Jones
4th round CB Fleming

2011 1st rounder (lets be generous and say Skins pick #16 overall)

Day by day im not liking giving up the farm for one guy with a shallow track record.

That's a whole lot of non-impact mediocrity there.

Riley Reiff is good, but he's nowhere near a special prospect, and we'll be using a #6 pick on a right tackle - why? And don't bring up Tyron Smith, the intent was always to move him to LT and Free to RT.

Ryan Tannehill is in my view the Blaine Gabbert of this draft - lots of tools and measurables, and looks good in drills and when he has no pressure. But get him in the kind of situations he'll see in the NFL and he struggles. The Cutler comparisons are absurd because Cutler was playing at Vandy, and has an accurate deep ball (though not elite like RGIII). He's the kind of player you burn 4 seasons on because he's not bad enough to dump like a bust like Akili Smith, but not good enough to actually take you anywhere.

Also there's no way he'll be there in the 2nd round. He's athletic and has good mechanics from being in a pro system, so somebody will hype him.

Dwight Jones? I guess he's a good WR prospect but I don't see "special" there. And imo we still need to see what we have in Robinson and Paul - Stevie Johnson was a 7th rounder who got almost no burn his first 2 years. A guy like Malcolm Floyd was undrafted. And "free agency" exists.

I mean, I don't get what is the fascination with quantity in regards to mid-tier prospects as opposed to adding an elite prospect at the most important position there is? If he busts we'll be 5-11 again. If we draft those other guys, then we'll be 7-9 with the occasional 9-7 or 10-6 assuming THEY pan out.

[smoothie]

i live abt an hr from cleveland, and thats what im hearing the browns dont want to give up a bunch for rgIII..they have so many other needs...Call me crazy but what if the rams fall in love with rgIII, and are dangling bradford? what would we be willing to give up for him? if anything? something just tells me that is a possibility..

[LightningBuggs]

I am glad the fanbase isn't the GM of this team. We already one GM that set this team back 10 or 15 years in Cerrato. He made these outlandish type of deals that everyone gripes and complains about because they paid too much and didn't workout. Now comes along Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen and they make smart decisions about how to make the team competitive. They have a good draft, get rid of almost all of the dead weight, and the team starts to show promise by the players they drafted and now everyone wants to sell the farm, the very thing everyone despised, for a College Heisman Trophy winning, on year wonder QB that may or may not pan out. No player is worth that price even if it worked for the Giants and Eli Manning. But how did the all in for Ricky Williams to New Orleans draft work out? How many FA's signed for too much and trade away draft picks work for the Redskins? To me it is not worth to pay that price especially with all the holes we need to fill. The Redskins have been FA warriors far too long and it hasn't provided this team with anything with misery and mediocre seasons.
Well said.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Okay, you're so gung ho against trading up, tell me what impact players are you gonna get with those picks? We don't need starters. We HAVE starters. We can GET starters. We need IMPACT players especially at QB.

[Califan007]

This is the train I'm on too. Name one thing that MS has done that has been predicted early.

McNabb was a complete shock. We were DEFINITELY taking Okung.

The hell we were lol...There was gargantuan debate about whether or not taking Williams at #4 was a wise decision. That pick didn't surprise anyone, it only angered some who thought Okung was a can't-miss LT.

[HeluCopter29]

I am glad the fanbase isn't the GM of this team. We already one GM that set this team back 10 or 15 years in Cerrato. He made these outlandish type of deals that everyone gripes and complains about because they paid too much and didn't workout. Now comes along Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen and they make smart decisions about how to make the team competitive. They have a good draft, get rid of almost all of the dead weight, and the team starts to show promise by the players they drafted and now everyone wants to sell the farm, the very thing everyone despised, for a College Heisman Trophy winning, on year wonder QB that may or may not pan out. No player is worth that price even if it worked for the Giants and Eli Manning. But how did the all in for Ricky Williams to New Orleans draft work out? How many FA's signed for too much and trade away draft picks work for the Redskins? To me it is not worth to pay that price especially with all the holes we need to fill. The Redskins have been FA warriors far too long and it hasn't provided this team with anything with misery and mediocre seasons.

There's a slight difference between how Vinny did it and how we're advocating doing it. By it, I mean trading a bunch of picks for one player.

The difference is that with Vinny, we continued to amass dead weight with player who were never going to pan out and just set us back. With Shannahan we have completely eliminated the dead weight and, as you said, accumulated a lot of players that have shown promise. At this point we can either continue to amass those players which will inevitably result in either this years draftees getting cut or players who showed promise in the past two seasons getting cut. We're cutting promise one way or another.

Essentially, the difference between Vinny and now, is that Vinny never took the first step. We've done the first step. Now let's do the next thing and getting the QB that'll make this team great again. And if it doesn't work out, then at least we still have all the promise we had the last two drafts. No one in this draft will make a major difference IMO for us, besides a QB. Let's get the best one we can get.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 01:40 PM ----------


Okay, you're so gung ho against trading up, tell me what impact players are you gonna get with those picks? We don't need starters. We HAVE starters. We can GET starters. We need IMPACT players especially at QB.

I completely agree. We have everyone else we'd take otherwise already. Let's take an impact player.

[Mahons21]

If it doesn't pan out we'll just continue to be a 5-11 team like we've been for years. We have nothing to lose.

This logic seems to suggest that if the Redskins acquire RG3 and he busts, the team would be no different than if they didn't trade up for RG3. It's based on the black and white logic around here that there are only two types of teams in the NFL, teams with franchise QBs, and teams without them. However as the AFC/NFC championship games respectively told us, there are other teams in the NFL.

Point being, if we draft RG3 and he fails, than we're in the gutter, if we don't trade the farm for RG3, we can continue to improve this team via the resources we would have used on RG3, and continue to search for a QB that can fit within the Shanny's system. The two scenarios can have vastly different outcomes, and the one in which we don't trade for RG3 doesn't necessarily lead to a bunch of mediocre seasons as some are suggesting.

[Jericho]

True. I think there is a great trade line and an awful trade line and a vaste swathe of territory in between that I feel would be acceptable. I have a good idea where the great trade line is but absolutely no idea what I feel constitutes an awful trade.

I guess it will come down to ultimately what gets paid for him. If another team makes a trade and beats us by offering something I wouldn't feel comfortable with us parting with - I don't think I will be too upset and would embrace Tannehill or Weeden.

Personally, I would be pretty disappointed with a Weedon/Tannehill fallback. Not because there is no point at which the risk is too high. Griffin himself is a risk. But while I cannot state with certaintly, a Tannehill/Weedon fall back likely is a failure. The problem is there's usually 1-2 actual worthwhile QBs per draft. And after Griffin and Luck, that might be it. If either Griffin or Luck bust, that just means less QBs from this draft that make it (there have been drafts that produiced zero good QBs).

I think part of the problem is the perception that there is a fallback option. It's possible, but highly unlikely. More probable is that there is no fallback. If the Redskins miss on Griffin, they may just be tossing good assets (draft picks) after bad options. I'd be shocked if a guy like Tannehill or Weeden are ever any better than Jason Campbell or Kyle Orton. I don't know that to be true. But recent draft history is very supportive of this position. So the question becomes if its even worthwhile to burn 2nd (or even first) round picks on such options.

[nyfan]

We are not that far off - 30 million under the cap and RG3 should out us at the top of our division. For Christ's sake the Aint's made the playoffs and won the super bowl with a 9 and 7 record!

[War Paint]

This logic seems to suggest that if the Redskins acquire RG3 and he busts, the team would be no different than if they didn't trade up for RG3. It's based on the black and white logic around here that there are only two types of teams in the NFL, teams with franchise QBs, and teams without them. However as the AFC/NFC championship games respectively told us, there are other teams in the NFL.

Point being, if we draft RG3 and he fails, than we're in the gutter, if we don't trade the farm for RG3, we can continue to improve this team via the resources we would have used on RG3, and continue to search for a QB that can fit within the Shanny's system. The two scenarios can have vastly different outcomes, and the one in which we don't trade for RG3 doesn't necessarily lead to a bunch of mediocre seasons as some are suggesting.

You have to have a franchise QB to be a true contender. The days of bus driving QBs are pretty much over. A team like the 49ers is rare, but even for the 49ers, Alex Smith was a #1 overall pick and showed flashes of elite, clutch play last season that he's never shown before. As much love as the Ravens get, they haven't really done much since 2000. They get to the playoffs a lot and are frequently picked to be in the SB, but they always come up short in the playoffs. They do have a QB that has the potential to grow into a franchise QB. Joe Flacco was a 1st round pick too, so it's not like the Ravens didn't try to find a franchise QB.

[Jericho]

This logic seems to suggest that if the Redskins acquire RG3 and he busts, the team would be no different than if they didn't trade up for RG3. It's based on the black and white logic around here that there are only two types of teams in the NFL, teams with franchise QBs, and teams without them. However as the AFC/NFC championship games respectively told us, there are other teams in the NFL.

Point being, if we draft RG3 and he fails, than we're in the gutter, if we don't trade the farm for RG3, we can continue to improve this team via the resources we would have used on RG3, and continue to search for a QB that can fit within the Shanny's system. The two scenarios can have vastly different outcomes, and the one in which we don't trade for RG3 doesn't necessarily lead to a bunch of mediocre seasons as some are suggesting.

True, but no team has actually won a Super Bowl without a franchise QB since 2003. And the game has changed since then to be even more pro-QB. Does not mean it cannot happen. As you mentioned, Baltimore and SF both came close to winning this past year (though some might argue Flacco is a franchise guy, whcih I disagree with). But you have to admit going without a franchise guy is a low percentage move. As an example, Baltimore has generally posted good records for years. Yet, they've managed to get the conference championship only twice in the last decade (2008, 2011), losing twice. But they never got over the hump. The last team to get to the Super Bowl without a franchise QB was Chicago with Rex Grossman. They came close. But again fell short.

I think baseball provides a great analogy. Getting a franchise QB puts you in contention every year. Just like being a big market team. You're not going to win every year, but on some years you get the right breaks and win it all. Think the Yankees or Red Sox or Phillies. Playing without a franchise QB is basically being a small market basebll team. You hope everything breaks right and you manage to win it all. It can happen. You might end up making the playoffs once every 3-4 years. But you might also get bounced right away. Think Minnesota or Milwaukee or Tampa Bay. Both methods could succeed, but one is much more likely than the other.

[Mahons21]

You have to have a franchise QB to be a true contender.
No you don't


The days of bus driving QBs are pretty much over. A team like the 49ers is rare, but even for the 49ers, Alex Smith was a #1 overall pick and showed flashes of elite, clutch play last season that he's never shown before. As much love as the Ravens get, they haven't really done much since 2000. They get to the playoffs a lot and are frequently picked to be in the SB, but they always come up short in the playoffs. They do have a QB that has the potential to grow into a franchise QB. Joe Flacco was a 1st round pick too, so it's not like the Ravens didn't try to find a franchise QB.
Just because the ravens/49ers "tried" to get a franchise QB doesn't change the fact that they don't have one now. Furthermore, I'm not opposed to using a single 1st rd draft pick on a QB, and I doubt many Redskins fans are. I wouldn't even mind a 1st and a 3rd. It's when we start the talk about two 1sts, a 2nd and more (don't even get me started on the guys who would trade our next 2 drafts for him).

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

This logic seems to suggest that if the Redskins acquire RG3 and he busts, the team would be no different than if they didn't trade up for RG3. It's based on the black and white logic around here that there are only two types of teams in the NFL, teams with franchise QBs, and teams without them. However as the AFC/NFC championship games respectively told us, there are other teams in the NFL.

Want to be a flash in the pan for a year? Don't get the franchise QB and build everywhere else. The Redskins were a dropped Carlos Rogers INT from being in the NFCCG in 2005, with a gimpy Mark Brunell (and almost certainly would have beaten Carolina, with a banged up Delhomme and their 4th string RB). Does anyone think that team was anything more than a flash in the pan? That team had a top 10 D, top 10 run game, a decent if somewhat limited passing game, and Sean Taylor literally winning games singlehandedly.

The Denver Broncos were in the AFCCG that same year with Jake Plummer. How sustainable was that? The reality is, you can go 13-3 with a mediocre or slightly-above average QB, but the teams that go 11-5 to 14-2 year in and year out, and win Super Bowls on a consistent basis, are the franchise QBs. The Ravens have a Pro Bowl RB, 2 Pro Bowl caliber WRs, solid TEs, an elite OL, elite defense, and an above-average QB (who has stretches where he DOES play like a franchise QB, his problem isn't talent or skillset, it's inconsistency. Hell, I'd argue that's the problem with Smith as well, who got sacked nearly 45 times last year yet was highly efficient. Fact is, getting someone as good as Smith was last year with a sub 16 pick is outside the norm). How many of those pieces will stay elite? Grubbs might be leaving. Lewis and Reed are slowing down. Boldin is getting up in years. Smith is great, but Evans is getting up there.

Yes you need a complete team to actually get over the hump. You also need top-tier coaching and a good defense. But the franchise QB is a prerequisite.


Point being, if we draft RG3 and he fails, than we're in the gutter, if we don't trade the farm for RG3, we can continue to improve this team via the resources we would have used on RG3, and continue to search for a QB that can fit within the Shanny's system. The two scenarios can have vastly different outcomes, and the one in which we don't trade for RG3 doesn't necessarily lead to a bunch of mediocre seasons as some are suggesting.

If you're lucky, that approach might get you Matt Schaub. If not, it will get you Brian Griese. Brian Griese is pretty much the epitome of the strategy you are advocating. Fitting a system doesn't mean much when you're not mobile, your deep ball accuracy sucks, and you're only average when the defenders are bearing down on you.

No matter how much you plug your ears and pretend it's still 1985, you need a franchise QB to win the Super Bowl. Or at least someone who can play like one for 4 games in the playoffs.

[Mahons21]

True, but no team has actually won a Super Bowl without a franchise QB since 2003. And the game has changed since then to be even more pro-QB. Does not mean it cannot happen. As you mentioned, Baltimore and SF both came close to winning this past year (though some might argue Flacco is a franchise guy, whcih I disagree with). But you have to admit going without a franchise guy is a low percentage move. As an example, Baltimore has generally posted good records for years. Yet, they've managed to get the conference championship only twice in the last decade (2008, 2011), losing twice. But they never got over the hump. The last team to get to the Super Bowl without a franchise QB was Chicago with Rex Grossman. They came close. But again fell short.

The counter-argument to this is the chicken and egg argument. Are these guys franchise QBs because they're great? Or is because throwing the ball to Finley/Nelson/Driver/Jennings isn't all that difficult, as 7th rd pick Matt Flynn has shown us.


I think baseball provides a great analogy. Getting a franchise QB puts you in contention every year. Just like being a big market team. You're not going to win every year, but on some years you get the right breaks and win it all. Think the Yankees or Red Sox or Phillies. Playing without a franchise QB is basically being a small market basebll team. You hope everything breaks right and you manage to win it all. It can happen. You might end up making the playoffs once every 3-4 years. But you might also get bounced right away. Think Minnesota or Milwaukee or Tampa Bay. Both methods could succeed, but one is much more likely than the other.

I don't agree that comparing teams that have twice the salary as other teams is equivalent to comparing a team with a top-notch QB compared to a team without one.

[GaryGreenMonk]

No you don't

Just because the ravens/49ers "tried" to get a franchise QB doesn't change the fact that they don't have one now. Furthermore, I'm not opposed to using a single 1st rd draft pick on a QB, and I doubt many Redskins fans are. I wouldn't even mind a 1st and a 3rd. It's when we start the talk about two 1sts, a 2nd and more (don't even get me started on the guys who would trade our next 2 drafts for him).

Yes... you do.

Here's a list of super bowl winning Quarterbacks since the last time we won a SB;

Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP)
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP)

You know what the funny thing about this list is?

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are the 2 QB's in this list that you say.. alright.. he isn't really a franchise guy.

Trent Dilfer was a 1st over all pick in the draft!

Leaving Brad Johnson as the sole quarterback in the last 20 years to win a superbowl that wasn't a franchise guy and was a late pick in the draft. And he wasn't the MVP of the game. If you want to push it.. you could add Kurt Warner. But he was basically a franchise guy at the end of his career when he won. They weren't trading him until he retired.

[snafu]

Kinda like how dominant this years crop of QBs was going to be when it included Barkley, Jones, and Wilson?

Only Barkley and Smith are guaranteed to come out next year. Gambling on underclassmen to come out is a risky (and unwise) proposition.

What if just the two of them come out, and we are picking in the 8-12 range next year, what then? Guess we'll just wait for 2014, which is REALLY when the dominant class comes out...

so giving up the first this year and 2013 wouldnt be bad. if RG# turns out badly we will be right in the running for another fqb.....

[Mahons21]

Being drafted 1st overall doesn't magically turn Trent Dilfer into a "franchise" QB.

Furthermore, you can't give guys like Brady/Big Ben credit for being franchise guys when some of the superbowls they won, they won before they were premier players in the league. Are you telling me Brady's 1st year in the NFL he was a franchise QB? 2,800 and 18 TD Tom was a franchise QB?

Or how about Big Ben's 2nd year in the NFL when he won the SB, 2,400 and 17 TDs, franchise numbers right? Or how about his 0 TD 2 INT superbowl, when he passed for 123 yards, can you say FRANCHISE??

And Aikman? Is that a joke? I figured no one knows better than Redskins fans how ridiculously overrated Aikman was, you could insert anyone on that team and they would have succeeded.

[War Paint]

No you don't


Yes you do.

The only team to win the Super Bowl this century without a franchise QB was the 2000 Ravens. They had one of the best defenses ever.
SB winners
SB 34- Rams, Kurt Warner
SB 35- Ravens, Trent Dilfer, only SB winning team this century with a bus driver QB
SB 36- Patriots, Tom Brady
SB 37- Tampa Bay, Brad Johnson
SB 38- Patriots, Tom Brady
SB 39- Patriots, Tom Brady
SB 40- Steelers, Big Ben
SB 41- Colts, Peyton Manning
SB 42- Giants, Eli Manning
SB- 43 Steelers, Big Ben
SB- 44 Saints, Drew Brees
SB- 45 Packers, Aaron Rodgers
SB -46 Giants, Eli Manning

Heck, you can go back even further and see most of the teams in the 90's had franchise QBs. You'll see Elway, Steve Young, Troy Aikman, and Brett Favre. The only one you can possibly say wasn't a franchise QB was Mark Rypien, but some consider him being our franchise QB for a brief period.



Just because the ravens/49ers "tried" to get a franchise QB doesn't change the fact that they don't have one now. Furthermore, I'm not opposed to using a single 1st rd draft pick on a QB, and I doubt many Redskins fans are. I wouldn't even mind a 1st and a 3rd. It's when we start the talk about two 1sts, a 2nd and more (don't even get me started on the guys who would trade our next 2 drafts for him).

The don't have one now and they didn't win the SB either. Also, Alex Smith and Flacco show flashes of being good, to where at times they look like they could be more than just a bus driving QB. Besides, I don't want to follow the 49ers model. That said, if the 49ers get a franchise QB, look out.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Being drafted 1st overall doesn't magically turn Trent Dilfer into a "franchise" QB.

Furthermore, you can't give guys like Brady/Big Ben credit for being franchise guys when some of the superbowls they won, they won before they were premier players in the league. Are you telling me Brady's 1st year in the NFL he was a franchise QB? 2,800 and 18 TD Tom was a franchise QB?

Or how about Big Ben's 2nd year in the NFL when he won the SB, 2,400 and 17 TDs, franchise numbers right? Or how about his 0 TD 2 INT superbowl, when he passed for 123 yards, can you say FRANCHISE??

And Aikman? Is that a joke? I figured no one knows better than Redskins fans how ridiculously overrated Aikman was, you could insert anyone on that team and they would have succeeded.

Its not about numbers.. like Eli.. they are guys that get the job done when the real **** is on the line.

You just can't argue that list.. try as hard as you want. You can't argue against the history. It is what it is.

Look at the 4 QB's this past year that had a SHOT at winning the SB..

Eli Manning
Tom Brady
Alex Smith (1st overall selection)
Drew Brees

so last year.. no franchise guy.. or 1st overall selection... no chance.

You WILL NOT win without one.

[Mahons21]

How exactly did you sneak Drew Brees in there? You're revisionist history is getting tiresome.

[War Paint]

How exactly did you sneak Drew Brees in there? You're revisionist history is getting tiresome.

You don't think Dree Brees is a franchise QB? In fact, one of the main reasons the Saints fell short at the end of the 49er game was because Alex Smith made some elite plays in clutch time. So the 49ers made the championship because their QB stepped it up in that game.

[GaryGreenMonk]

How exactly did you sneak Drew Brees in there? You're revisionist history is getting tiresome.

I had 3 NFC teams.. Baltimore was the 4th team. So Joe Flacco (an 18th overall selection) had a chance.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Being drafted 1st overall doesn't magically turn Trent Dilfer into a "franchise" QB.

Furthermore, you can't give guys like Brady/Big Ben credit for being franchise guys when some of the superbowls they won, they won before they were premier players in the league. Are you telling me Brady's 1st year in the NFL he was a franchise QB? 2,800 and 18 TD Tom was a franchise QB?


Or how about Big Ben's 2nd year in the NFL when he won the SB, 2,400 and 17 TDs, franchise numbers right? Or how about his 0 TD 2 INT superbowl, when he passed for 123 yards, can you say FRANCHISE??

He threw 2400 yards on less than 270 attempts. Threw for more TDs per attempt than anybody in the league. Aikman and Big Ben were highly efficient passers who were clutch (don't forget how Ben did in the AFCCG). I predict had both of them had to throw at volume, they would have had significantly better numbers. Brady wasn't elite in terms of his numbers but while the Patriots had a good (not great) defense, he was also already highly clutch and very efficient.

Why are you so intent on disproving the enormous impact of franchise QBs?

[Jericho]

The counter-argument to this is the chicken and egg argument. Are these guys franchise QBs because they're great? Or is because throwing the ball to Finley/Nelson/Driver/Jennings isn't all that difficult, as 7th rd pick Matt Flynn has shown us.

Matt Flynn has started what...2 game? Matt Flynn hasn't proven us anything.

Sure, you can argue anything since football is like science, not math. There's not an absolute answer. You basically take what info you have to draw conclusions. However, the argument it's the team, not the QB does not hold much water. The successful guys, ones like Warner, Manning, Brady, etc... have done it with a wide diversity of supporting casts. Manning did not always play with Harrison. Brady did not always play with Moss or Gronkowski. Warner did not always play with Fitzgerald. And yet all were consistently successful over time with a great diversity of teammates.

You can never completely separate an individual's talent from the team. But there's plenty of evidence a good QB will be good no matter the talent around him. There's little evidence to supoprt a great supporting cast makes a franchise QB. Unless you're trying to point to one game as conclusive proof of something.

[Mahons21]

I had 3 NFC teams.. Baltimore was the 4th team. So Joe Flacco (an 18th overall selection) had a chance.

So now there's an emphasis on where said QB was drafted... Funny you didn't do that before when you mentioned the QBs.. Wonder why?

As I said before where you're drafted doesn't magically turn you into a franchise QB, and Flacco is not a franchise guy.

[pjfootballer]

Yes... you do.

Here's a list of super bowl winning Quarterbacks since the last time we won a SB;

Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP)
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP)

You know what the funny thing about this list is?

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are the 2 QB's in this list that you say.. alright.. he isn't really a franchise guy.

Trent Dilfer was a 1st over all pick in the draft!

Leaving Brad Johnson as the sole quarterback in the last 20 years to win a superbowl that wasn't a franchise guy and was a late pick in the draft. And he wasn't the MVP of the game. If you want to push it.. you could add Kurt Warner. But he was basically a franchise guy at the end of his career when he won. They weren't trading him until he retired.

And all but Dilfer and Johnson are and will be HOFers. Don't forget TB's defense scored 21 of the 48 Bucs points and set up many more.

[Jericho]

Being drafted 1st overall doesn't magically turn Trent Dilfer into a "franchise" QB.

Furthermore, you can't give guys like Brady/Big Ben credit for being franchise guys when some of the superbowls they won, they won before they were premier players in the league. Are you telling me Brady's 1st year in the NFL he was a franchise QB? 2,800 and 18 TD Tom was a franchise QB?

Or how about Big Ben's 2nd year in the NFL when he won the SB, 2,400 and 17 TDs, franchise numbers right? Or how about his 0 TD 2 INT superbowl, when he passed for 123 yards, can you say FRANCHISE??

And Aikman? Is that a joke? I figured no one knows better than Redskins fans how ridiculously overrated Aikman was, you could insert anyone on that team and they would have succeeded.

Aikman may have been overrated, but he was a very good QB. There's a reason he's in the HOF. You also talk about Big Ben winning a title in his second year. The year he posted a 98.6 QB rating. He may not have been the best player he ever became, but both Aikman and Big Ben (and Brady) were already above average QBs when they won the Super Bowl. No one says you need the best QB, but you need to be pretty good. Or else you're the flash in the pan. When's the last time the Redskins had anyone even that good? You can't brush off Big Ben throwing up a 98.6 QB rating as mediocre when only one Redskins in history has ever topped that (Sammy Baugh...in 1945...in an 8 game season). Even Mark Rypien's best season does not rate as high...

[GaryGreenMonk]

So now there's an emphasis on where said QB was drafted... Funny you didn't do that before when you mentioned the QBs.. Wonder why?

As I said before where you're drafted doesn't magically turn you into a franchise QB, and Flacco is not a franchise guy.

He didn't win either now did he?

Only 2 guys have won the Superbowl in 20 years that weren't franchise guys. period.

Don't give me the BS that Aikman or Rothelisberger isn't a franchise guy or that Brady doesn't count the first time cause he was just starting. That is complete and total BS.

You're doing nothing but attempting to confuse an argument that is impossible for you to win.

You simply cannot win a Superbowl without a franchise Quarterback. It almost never happens.

On top of that... of the Quarterbacks that are Franchise guys and won and were not top 15 picks in the draft;

Brady
Brees
Rogers
Warner

Just Brady and Rogers have won the SB with the team that drafted them.

Conclusion..

In the last 20 years.. 2 teams have drafted a quarterback outside the top 15 and gone on to win a Superbowl with them.

Brady is a very rare case. Rogers had the "luxury" of sitting behind Favre and learning the offense for 3 years and was not drafted that far out of the top 15.

And separate conclusion..

only 2 QB's that would be considered non-franchise guys have won a superbowl in 20 years. And one of them was a 1st overall selection in the draft.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Don't forget the inconvenient fact that Rodgers was a projected top 3 pick - it just so happens that the teams that needed QBs after San Fran were the Vinny/Gibbs Redskins and the Al Davis Raiders.

[Skins3000]

See, it's comments like this that bother me. (No offense to jeronimobrat, not trying to single you out)

See the problem with these statement is that you are saying RG3 is a once in a lifetime talent behind center...yet you refer to Eli Manning (drafted in 2004, about 8 years ago) as an example. Eight years is a lifetime? How about Bradford? He was also referred to as the QB of the decade. Everyone swore he was the next Brady/Manning and another QB of his caliber would not be available for 10 years. He was so damn talented and rare according to...well, everyone...yet now so many think the Rams should trade him and draft the new fad. Cam Newton wasn't played quite as high, but the next year everyone was high on him also. Now we have Luck and RG3...both being referred to the same way Bradford was as the "QB of the decade"...or in this case a lifetime. Next year, I suspect Barkley will be treated the same...and another after that.

The hype built up every year for the draft candidates is inconsistent and ridiculous. Every single year there is a QB of the decade. A decade is 10 years. I just don't get it. RG3 is good, but he is very unlikely to be the QB of a lifetime.

No one saw Bradford as the qb of the decade more or less Bradford was seen as an accurate qb that had some durability issues with the bum shoulder. Newton was seen as a project and in college had one of the most simple offenses imaginable. Newton has definitely proved his doubters wrong for at least one year because I admit I was one of them. Analyst are calling Luck the next coming of Elway and some have shot that notion down but Luck will be a franchise qb and so will Griffin now with the height issues resolved.

[Pick6]

Brady is a very rare case. Rogers had the "luxury" of sitting behind Favre and learning the offense for 3 years and was not drafted that far out of the top 15.


You could also make the argument that Rodgers was projected to go higher, but some teams made bonehead decisions.

[C26 Run]

:applause:, Thank you for posting this message. I totally agree that we need to draft a QB but losing any future 1st round picks for one player is way too steep of a price to pay. If this was a swap within the draft, I'd happily accept. This team has entirely too many holes to just trade away picks. Vinny was killed on a regular basis for trading away our picks and now I see people advocating the same mindset.

:helmet:

[pjfootballer]

Vinny missed on trades AND picks. This FO has hit on the picks (11 of 12), trades (Hightower/Gaffney) and Free agents.

[HeluCopter29]

:applause:, Thank you for posting this message. I totally agree that we need to draft a QB but losing any future 1st round picks for one player is way too steep of a price to pay. If this was a swap within the draft, I'd happily accept. This team has entirely too many holes to just trade away picks. Vinny was killed on a regular basis for trading away our picks and now I see people advocating the same mindset.

:helmet:

I think if you looked through our roster and then at the draft class I think you'd find that a lot of the guys we'd be drafting with the picks that we'd otherwise be saving are very much like the ones we already have. 53 spots on a roster and we can't keep everyone.

2 years ago no one would have advocated for this but now that we've completed the first step, stockpiling players in drafts, we can do the second step, getting some elite talent. Vinny never did the first step so any elite talent he did get was never going to pan out and it never did. I think the idea is that now that we've actually done the first part we can do the second part and get a guy who will really make a difference. Like I said, we have most of the guys we'd get in this draft already so why get more Niles Pauls when we can get our first RGIII?

[Califan007]

:applause:, Thank you for posting this message. I totally agree that we need to draft a QB but losing any future 1st round picks for one player is way too steep of a price to pay. If this was a swap within the draft, I'd happily accept. This team has entirely too many holes to just trade away picks. Vinny was killed on a regular basis for trading away our picks and now I see people advocating the same mindset.

:helmet:

No, Vinny was killed on a regular basis for trading away draft picks on overvalued vet players who either didn't fit the scheme or turned out to be completely unnecessary.

I'd rather trade two 1st round picks, a 2nd and a 3rd to draft a franchise QB we could have for 15 years than trade a 3rd and 4th for TJ Duckett or Brandon Lloyd....

I'd rather offer two 1st for RG3 than offer two 1sts for OchoCinco...

I'd rather trade two 1sts, a 2nd and a 3rd for RG3 than a 2nd rounder for Jason Taylor...

[21Skins26Canes]

Trent Dilfer was the 6th pick in the 94 draft, not the 1st. We picked Shuler over him with the #3 pick

where were you guys then? That was one of the biggest Skins QB debates of the last 20 years. Dilfer or Shuler?

I wanted Dilfer but that isn't saying much

[paloosa]

There's a slight difference between how Vinny did it and how we're advocating doing it. By it, I mean trading a bunch of picks for one player.

The difference is that with Vinny, we continued to amass dead weight with player who were never going to pan out and just set us back. With Shannahan we have completely eliminated the dead weight and, as you said, accumulated a lot of players that have shown promise. At this point we can either continue to amass those players which will inevitably result in either this years draftees getting cut or players who showed promise in the past two seasons getting cut. We're cutting promise one way or another.

Essentially, the difference between Vinny and now, is that Vinny never took the first step. We've done the first step. Now let's do the next thing and getting the QB that'll make this team great again. And if it doesn't work out, then at least we still have all the promise we had the last two drafts. No one in this draft will make a major difference IMO for us, besides a QB. Let's get the best one we can get.

---------- Post added February-29th-2012 at 01:40 PM ----------



I completely agree. We have everyone else we'd take otherwise already. Let's take an impact player.

RGIII looks and feels like an impact player but he is another QB with only one really good season under his belt. No one was even talking about this guy until the end of the year when Baylor was still winning. Where was the hype last year or the year before? I like what I see but the price is too steep to take but if they take the plunge at that price he better produce otherwise the whole fanbase will be pointing fingers that don't need to be even pointed. You get what you ask for you better be able live with the risk that you are begging for.

[Dukes and Skins]

RGIII looks and feels like an impact player but he is another QB with only one really good season under his belt. No one was even talking about this guy until the end of the year when Baylor was still winning. Where was the hype last year or the year before? I like what I see but the price is too steep to take but if they take the plunge at that price he better produce otherwise the whole fanbase will be pointing fingers that don't need to be even pointed. You get what you ask for you better be able live with the risk that you are begging for.

There have been people talking about RG3 for a while and many had seen him becoming a 1st round pick when he came out. The difference is not many saw him becoming this good this fast, the potential was there. He this year has taken that next step as a player and turned into a guy

Also heres his college stats in reference to his 1 good year

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/378497/robert-griffin-iii

As you can see he had a very good 2010 3500 yards passing which is only 700+ less than 2011 and that was the 1st year back after the knee injury. RG3 is a special talent who has been very good for 2 years now

[Califan007]

I feel like some here on ES want the Skins to draft "not to lose" instead of drafting to win lol :pfft:...

[Mahons21]

Aikman may have been overrated, but he was a very good QB. There's a reason he's in the HOF. You also talk about Big Ben winning a title in his second year. The year he posted a 98.6 QB rating. He may not have been the best player he ever became, but both Aikman and Big Ben (and Brady) were already above average QBs when they won the Super Bowl. No one says you need the best QB, but you need to be pretty good.
Would you say good to pretty good play qualifies as "franchise QB" level play? It doesn't in my opinion, and the posters I unfortunately attempted to enter into a reasonable discussion with on the topic seem to believe you need a "franchise QB," to win.


Or else you're the flash in the pan. When's the last time the Redskins had anyone even that good? You can't brush off Big Ben throwing up a 98.6 QB rating as mediocre when only one Redskins in history has ever topped that (Sammy Baugh...in 1945...in an 8 game season). Even Mark Rypien's best season does not rate as high...

And I'm sorry I don't mean to brush aside Ben's accomplishment, he had a highly productive year, and it's a huge accomplishment to win the SB in your 2nd season. With that being said, he simply wasn't a franchise QB at that time. I have a very hard time believing anyone here would be happy with the pedestrian #'s he put up that season.

He was a QB that played slightly above average within a system.

[HeluCopter29]

RGIII looks and feels like an impact player but he is another QB with only one really good season under his belt. No one was even talking about this guy until the end of the year when Baylor was still winning. Where was the hype last year or the year before? I like what I see but the price is too steep to take but if they take the plunge at that price he better produce otherwise the whole fanbase will be pointing fingers that don't need to be even pointed. You get what you ask for you better be able live with the risk that you are begging for.

I do agree with some of this. Remember that RGIII's numbers his junior season were comparable to that of Andrew Luck's junior season, and Luck was deemed the golden child after that season. The difference is Baylor was #12 in the nation this year and 2010 they went 7-6. Of course Luck's gonna get more hype then RGIII.

While I agree with you that if we do trade up for him we're taking a risk, we're also taking a risk drafting him at #6. The draft is very hit or miss by nature. If we trade up for him now though it won't hurt us as much due to the fact that most of our other players are already in place. It's just a matter of time until they begin to produce. Let's fill the most important and biggest hole now.

[Skins199021]

Still rather draft Tannehill and keep our picks, he has done so good with such little experience, and he was in Sherman's West Coast offense

[joeknows]

McNabb, Vick, Young, Newton - loads of potential, no Championships. The "Athletic" QB starts winning when he stops using his legs and becomes a pocket passer. (See Elway, John) There are lots of games when he gives you something to cheer for, but again, in retrospect, would the Skins have produced a champioship by trading up to draft any of them? If we had the natural number two pick, I'd say RG III's the guy to get. But trading up 4 places by losing two firsts, a second and a third seems awfully high, especially with QB's in next year's draft and Tannehill at a lot cheaper price. Unless the plan is to let Cleveland get him by offering the same deal.

My feeling on whether it's worth it or not is going to come down to what the Skins find in FA. If they make major improvements in the OL (at least two starters, not castoffs other teams were getting rid of anyway), a new number one WR, and a starting cornerback, then I can see that the Skins have filled needs those precious draft picks could have fillled. But if all the Skins end up with is a shiny new QB with nothing around him, it's going to be more years of watching the bottom of the NFC East. This team + shiny new RG III is still a bad team.

First off sorry to quote so much text but it is next to impossible to edit from my phone.

I understand exactly what you are saying... however i think in my opinion the only guy you mentioned with that kind of athleticism is vick. I think RGIII is much much more intelligent than any of the guys you listed and i think that is what makes him different.