Let's discuss the offensive line and free agency

[Hitman21ST]

I know there's the overall FA tracker thread, so if this is better put in there, no hurt feeling if this gets merged. I just thought that since there is a WR specific thread, we could do one for each position group.

NFL.com Free Agency tracker (click on OL for the purposes of this thread)
http://www.nfl.com/freeagency?module=HP11_cp

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have two hours until the frenzy begins. Even with the (possible) cap reduction, the Redskins have a decent amount of cap space. In order to keep the front page of ES a little more organized, let's keep this thread focused on the offensive line. I'll post some free agents that I would assume we're going after. There are specific players that fit our system. If I missed any, feel free to add them:

Mike Briesel (G): 6'5", 300. 28 years old, played 4 years with Houston as the Right Guard. Knows the ZBS, knows Kyle. I know we have Lich and Chester, but I have a feeling we'll take a look at the guy.

Chris Meyers (C): 6'4", 289. 30 years old, played in Houston as their C. Again, knows Kyle and the ZBS. He's a little older than what Shanny has targeted in the past, but his experience in the ZBS might be invaluable. Wouldn't be surprised if we gave him a look.

Eric Winston (T): 6'7", 302. 28 years old, played 4 seasons with Houston as the Right Tackle. Completing the right side of the Houston line, he's one of the best RTs in the game. Knows Kyle and the ZBS, and he should be one of our top targets IMO. We need to upgrade RT. Jammal just isn't cutting it.

Carl Nicks (G): 6'5", 343. 26 years old, played in New Orleans. He's probably too big to play in the ZBS, but he's a top guard and might be able to pick it up. He would be an upgrade.

Jared Gaither (T): 6'9", 340. 25 years old, played last year in San Diego. Again, might be too big for the ZBS, but we took Chester from Baltimore last year and he wasn't too bad. If Gaither is mobile, he might be a fit for us.

Tony Moll (G): 6'5", 315. 28 years old. I don't really know anything about the guy, but he looks like he could be a fit. If nothing else, could be depth.

Jacob Bell (G): 6'5", 304. 31 years old. His age is an issue, but IIRC, he was a good guard for the Rams. His size shouldn't be an issue, but can he hold up for a full season?


If there are any I missed, feel free to add them. I didn't write down everyone from NFL.com's list, because a lot of them just aren't a good fit for us. I am in no means an OL guru, so those who are, feel free to add in your :2cents: and get this really rolling.

[warren]

Two words - Eric Winston

[SWFLSkins]

Great thread start Hitman, I think the OL has to be partially addressed today in FA and can't wait until the draft. No number 2 and a new QB makes fixing RT and adding depth in FA a must. I like Winston to take that RT spot.

[rockfan7224]

Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston

[RabidFan]

Winston for shizzle and i hope to get a true LG if we are replacing Kory.

[MattFancy]

Yup Sign Winston and cut Jamal Brown. That would help some of the cap situation.

[Ant15fromNJ]

We have to....HAVE TO upgrade the offensive line. A football team is built from the lines and out. I hope we can get Winston then we will have to good tackles and big monty in the middle we will be decent. O Line is more important than anything for us right now. We have to protect RG3 and give him time and our "bad" wrs will get open.

[authentic]

i agree with the sentiment.. It would be nice to get Winston.... Actually RT is our biggest need on the Oline. They need to to cut Jamal.

[TheREALJBird]

Winston should be a no brainer for us, I really hope we pursue him, he's an ideal fit for us, and cutting Brown would give us some cap relief.

[maskedsuperstar]

Yup Sign Winston and cut Jamal Brown. That would help some of the cap situation.

I don't think they can cut Brown right now. But yes, sign Winston!

[Rufus T Firefly]

Yeah, the second I heard Winston was cut, he became #1 on my wish list.

[Dukes and Skins]

I don't think they can cut Brown right now. But yes, sign Winston!

They can cut him whenever they want to.... I bet they would sign Winston first then cut Brown though

[braindx]

Winston, to a lesser extent Myers!

Pillage Houston's Oline!

[santanathegreat]

Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston

Best post in this thread. :D

[Hitman21ST]

Winston, to a lesser extent Myers!

Pillage Houston's Oline!

Briesel over Myers for me. Monty was a good center, we need to upgrade G before C.

[gorebd82]

I liked the idea of Grubbs, Myers and/or Brisiel, but the Winston release changes the game. I thought we could build some depth at tackle as insurance and to give Brown an opportunity to play at full health, but Winston is an upgrade over a healthy Brown so getting our OT bookend is the priority. The ZBS lets us skimp at interior OL. I think if we get Winston, we might still target Brisiel, but if we just go with open competition of Monty, Chester, Lichtensteiger, Hurt and maybe a 3rd/4th round rookie (Zeitler or Ben Jones maybe?), then we'll be ok in the interior.

[skins2323]

Yup Sign Winston and cut Jamal Brown. That would help some of the cap situation.

I read in a thread earlier that we CANT cut Brown without eating money this yr, we wouold not save anything due to the contract he signed last yr. That being said, can we realistically sign Winston and keep Brown on the roster with our current cap problems? If so then great, it would be fantastic depth.....but I persoanlly dont see that happening. Even though I would love to get Winston

[Champskins]

Where's Marcus McNeil, 100% healthy. Levi Brown???

Marcus McNeill - 28, years old, 6'7 336. One of the most durable Tackles in the game

Levi Brown - 27 years old, drafted number 5 overall, 6'6 324... graded bad as LT but could be good at RT..

That said, I love Winston and Briseil, but would like to keep Monty at C.

[Ant15fromNJ]

Everyone grade Chris Chester we was an under performer for the Ravens, I didnt like the move then and I am still unsure of him now.

[Burgold]

Corey worries with me both because of his size and injury history. I actually like Hurt and would like him to get a chance to compete, but upgrading the guard and tackle is a must. Our reserves played better than our starters and while that speaks well of our reserves and our coaches... it either means we need new starters or need to promote our reserves and get new reserves.

[maskedsuperstar]

They can cut him whenever they want to.... I bet they would sign Winston first then cut Brown though

Thats not what was said this morning on ESPN980

[gorebd82]

Briesel over Myers for me. Monty was a good center, we need to upgrade G before C.

I say only because of pricetag maybe. Myers is a better player at a more important position and one where we have more of a need. Monty is not a very good center. I think he's better at guard anyway. Right now, we have 4 guys on our team that can play guard. 3 of them can play center, but are probably better at guard. We need a true center more than another candidate to compete at guard.

[Skins199021]

If we got Winston and Grubbs, and Released brown and picked up Nate Potter in the draft..... that would be awesome

[Alcoholic Zebra]

ProFootballFocus had this to say about Eric Winston:
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/13/eric-winston-hits-the-market/

He's good, he's not old, he's consistent, he knows the scheme, and he was a successful RT on a great offense in Houston. We need him. He'd be a major upgrade.

[2cents]

Why was Winston cut? I remember hearing how great their line was so I was surprised to see him cut.

[Champskins]

Winston is a top 5 RT, I'd be surprised if he wasnt a Redskin at 4:01 PM EST

[Hitman21ST]

Why was Winston cut? I remember hearing how great their line was so I was surprised to see him cut.

Cap casualty I think

[Dukes and Skins]

Why was Winston cut? I remember hearing how great their line was so I was surprised to see him cut.

Trying to clear cap to retain Mario Williams I bet

[dcdiscokid]

Yup Sign Winston and cut Jamal Brown. That would help some of the cap situation.

No it actually increase the cap this year, we take a 1.5 hit if we cut him, but have a lot of savings next year.


According to Warpath website, which does a tremendous job with the cap figures, the Sellers (+$1 mill.) and Otogwe ($3.5 mill) save over $4.5 mill. Others who would be possible include D. Hall at a savings of $6.2 mill. and Cooley (+$2 mill.). Those Cuts together would save almost $15 this year.

Cutting Brown this year would actually cost $1.25 mill. and Moss would be a savings of just a few hundred thousand, though both would save the Skins plenty in 2013, something in the neighborhood of $10-$11 mill.

Also, Trent Williams at over $12 mill in salary this year would be a natural for a contract restructure to spread the hit out over more years.

I look for the Williams restructure, getting Davis a more cap friendly contract, a Hall new contract or outright release if he balks, and (unfortunately) a Cooley release. These moves could essentially save the Skins the $18 mill that is half of the NFLs penalty. I'd also expect both Brown and Moss to be released after next season when the savings would be dramatically improved.

[London Kev]

RT is a need, and Winston would be a perfect fit. We will probably bring in one or two UFA as well to compete with Smith as depth.
I thought that Lich played well at LG, but as we won't know for sure if he's healed untill camp, a LG is needed. Briesel is worth a look, maybe use a late pick on a young one as well.
I don't care if we take a cap hit for it or not, but we gotta cut Cook.

[skins2323]

That link says that Winston is going to command 8 million + when compared to other RTs. We still have to pay Brown next year, I really dont think we can afford him even though he is exactly what we need.

[HigSkin]

If we got Winston and Grubbs, and Released brown and picked up Nate Potter in the draft..... that would be awesome

Saw Grubbs was gonna command a $32 mil contract and really don't think he fits our scheme. Thank God for that because the $$ is ridiculous.

[Truant]

Winston and a good guard or center. I'm a little torn on the second part because I don't want to spend a lot of money on the interior of the line because I kinda like the players we have there... but maybe we should improve upon them. Monty can shift to guard if we get a good center. Or we can replace Lich at guard and use him as a reserve for a new guy that we bring in.

Anyways, I think we could use two new offensive lineman and we'd be looking a lot stronger already on offense going into next year.

[planter]

Great thread and info. Skins may have their.franchise QB and now must prioritize OL. In the NFL East the QB killas feast on underpowered, nimble OL.Hicks might be asked to.drop 5 lbs.

[authentic]

Cap casualty I think

yup same reason why they're letting Meyers walk.. Their Oline situation is going to be interesting going into next season.

[Hitman21ST]

Winston also went up against Robert Mathis twice a year in Houston, so they guy knows something about stopping elite pass rushers.

[Dukes and Skins]

yup same reason why they're letting Meyers walk.. Their Oline situation is going to be interesting going into next season.

Meyers Brisiel and Winston are all FA's for them aka 3/5 of that OL

[Mahons21]

Great thread, I agree with most that Winston has got to be the top priority. I hope we can do some sort of shuffle within the interior to improve that part of our o-line as well.

Just spit-balling but maybe:
Hurt - Kory - chester
Kory - Monty - Hurt
etc

[Dukes and Skins]

Great thread, I agree with most that Winston has got to be the top priority. I hope we can do some sort of shuffle within the interior to improve that part of our o-line as well.

Just spit-balling but maybe:
Hurt - Kory - chester
Kory - Monty - Hurt
etc

Keep an eye on Brandon Brooks from Miami OH in the middle rounds. A guy who I think could come in and play G and be a very successful ZBS G despite his size

[Champskins]

Keep an eye on Brandon Brooks from Miami OH in the middle rounds. A guy who I think could come in and play G and be a very successful ZBS G despite his size

He's jumped up a ton after his pro day.... didn't get much attention before that. Scouts wondered why he didnt get a combine invite

[Dukes and Skins]

He's jumped up a ton after his pro day.... didn't get much attention before that. Scouts wondered why he didnt get a combine invite

Agreed still looking like a 4th round pick to me, but love his potential

[Champskins]

Agreed still looking like a 4th round pick to me, but love his potential

visited with the Lions yesterday. Could see him getting snagged fairly quick, kids a beast

[gamecokskins703]

have any of our insiders said that the FO has expressed any interest in Winston? He would be number 1 on my OL priority list this FA.

[Dukes and Skins]

have any of our insiders said that the FO has expressed any interest in Winston? He would be number 1 on my OL priority list this FA.

Mike Jones from the Post has said that we are to be looking at Winston, he's usually plugged in and reliable

---------- Post added March-13th-2012 at 03:03 PM ----------


visited with the Lions yesterday. Could see him getting snagged fairly quick, kids a beast

Not disagreeing, but was 5th rounder by many before pro day, shouldn't jump to anything earlier than mid 3rd round

[Hitman21ST]

Mike Jones from the Post has said that we are to be looking at Winston, he's usually plugged in and reliable.

Yeah, I'd tend to agree with that. Jones is one of the few who know what they're talking about.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Saw Grubbs was gonna command a $32 mil contract and really don't think he fits our scheme. Thank God for that because the $$ is ridiculous.

Where did you see this? And 32 mil over how many years?

[Mahons21]

Agreed still looking like a 4th round pick to me, but love his potential

I'll have to go check out some cut-ups you guys are getting me all excited n ****.

[Dukes and Skins]

I'll have to go check out some cut-ups you guys are getting me all excited n ****.

:ols: sorry Mahons lemme go find some cut ups on youtube. Found one or two somewhere but I'm pretty sure it was Youtube haha

[Champskins]

Here you go Mahons:


"Miami (OH) OG Brandon Brooks weighed in at 6-foot-5, 346 and bench pressed 225 pounds 36 times at his Pro Day on Thursday.
The biggest snub of the 2012 Combine, Brooks projects as a second-day pick and was an all-star game phenom after dominating in the MAC. At the Pro Day, Brooks showed his athleticism with a 4.98 forty comparable to Cordy Glenn's in Indianapolis. Brooks' 10-yard split was a similarly impressive 1.71, and his 4.52 short shuttle would have beaten every offensive lineman at the Combine."

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7498/brandon-brooks

[flexxskins]

Carl Nicks (G): 6'5", 343. 26 years old, played in New Orleans. He's probably too big to play in the ZBS, but he's a top guard and might be able to pick it up. He would be an upgrade.:applause:Kudos Hitman for starting this thread, it is long overdue.

With regards to Nicks, I don't know whether or not you have seen him play, but every time I have watched the Saints play I can't take my eyes off of this guy. There are 3 things that I love seeing in a offensive lineman, and Nicks has them and does them all and more. One, is that I love watching a O-lineman pancake a D-lineman or LB, and Nicks does it on a constant. Two, is that I love watching a O-lineman get a hat on two different players whether run blocking or pass blocking and again, I've watched Nicks do just that on numerous occasions. And three is watching O-linemen in space, and watching someone as massive as Nicks roll that body out in space and place a couple of players on their asses at a time is fun to say the least.

[Hitman21ST]

15 minutes and counting...

[HigSkin]

I'll have to go check out some cut-ups you guys are getting me all excited n ****.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/13/tuesday-one-liners/
Free agent LG Ben Grubbs is expected to leave Baltimore after the Bears, Cowboys, Bucs, or Browns blow away the five-year, $32 million offer RG Marshal Yanda received from the Ravens last year.

[36HAMMER]

Ben Grubbs, more athletic than Nicks quicker , faster and would be great as a zone blocker and will probably cost less than nicks. don't know how much cap space we actually have but we need a big time guard, a cb and some lbs and a good center with more strength and girth would be great to. before we stop. too bad we couldnt get B. Marshall but we have already traded alot of pciks. oh well.

[Warhead36]

I think OL gets addressed in the draft. Shanny doesn't really spend big bucks on FA OL, don't need to with the ZBS.

[DogofWar1]

Man, I would love Winston right about now. He'd probably be a done deal too if not for cap bs. I still hold out hope he comes here because he hasn't been signed yet.

For guard, if we sign anyone, I anticipate it'll be a small name, underrated guy. Grubbs and Nicks commanded too much salary before the sanction, now it's just simply impossible. Myers would be nice, and perhaps if we didn't have the sanction we could have pursued him, but between his age and money I just don't see him happening now. If any OGs end up here, they'll be unheralded FAs who don't eat much cap.

The problem with the draft is that we also need safeties badly. We have guys on the line, even if they aren't really that good. Compare that to our safety position, where our 1 and 2 are walking and were cut respectively. We need guys there in the worst way, and so I'm getting the vibe that the 3rd is S, and OT/OG won't be addressed until at least the 4th. I really hope Shanahan and Allen find some diamonds in the rough there.

[Hitman21ST]

There's a report coming out that Winston failed his physical after breaking his ankle? Someone follow up...

[B&GPride44]

Agreed...Shanny fully believes he can sculpt young, raw talent for his zone blocking scheme, off the street. And he has shown in the past, in Denver that he pretty much can. With that said, I'd love to see us get one of those three (Winston, Nicks, Grubbs) but that Brooks kid looks remarkable!

[rockfan7224]

There's a report coming out that Winston failed his physical after breaking his ankle? Someone follow up...

Just the reason they used on the waiver wire to release him. I've seen a bunch saying he's good to go withing 2 weeks.

---------- Post added March-14th-2012 at 09:06 AM ----------


I think OL gets addressed in the draft. Shanny doesn't really spend big bucks on FA OL, don't need to with the ZBS.

I'm starting to think that as well. I mean Willie Smith and Mo Hurt looked halfway decent last year

[J-bomb]

OT-Anthony Collins-26
2011 HIGHLIGHTS: Played in seven games (Games 1, 7 and 12-16), with starts Dec. 11 vs. Houston and Dec. 18 at St. Louis in place of injured RT Andre Smith ... Active-DNP in six games and inactive in three games ... Also inactive for Wild Card playoff ... Contributed to pass protection that ranked tied for fourth in NFL in fewest sacks allowed (25) … On Sept. 11 at Cleveland, saw action mostly on special teams and occasionally as an extra blocker in short-yardage situations … On Dec. 4 at Pittsburgh, played as replacement after Smith left game in second quarter with ankle injury, and also saw brief action on defense as an extra lineman in short-yardage situations … Played in all four preseason games.

PREVIOUS SEASONS: 2010 - Missed last three preseason games due to foot injury suffered Aug. 15 vs. Denver … Active-DNP for Games 1-2, played in Game 3, inactive for Games 4-8 and played in Games 9-16 ... In midseason, began sharing RT duties with Dennis Roland … Secured No. 1 spot for Games 15-16 … Played key role in Bengals allowing no sacks in season’s final three games … Supported 371-net yard performance with no sacks allowed in win Dec. 26 vs. San Diego.

2009 - Aided 141-yard rushing game by Cedric Benson on Sept. 20 at Green Bay … Helped lead fourth-quarter drives of 85 and 71 yards during comeback win Sept. 27 vs. Pittsburgh … Helped support a 5.1-yard team rushing average in win Oct. 4 at Cleveland … In win Oct. 11 at Baltimore, helped limit Ravens defense to one sack while helping Benson (27-for-120) become first player in 40 games to rush for 100 yards against Baltimore … In win Nov. 8 vs. Baltimore, aided performance up front that allowed only one sack, and helped Benson rush for 117 yards … Aided a run-blocking effort that netted 210 yards rushing Nov. 29 vs. Cleveland, and helped Bengals control time of possession for 38:11 … On Dec. 6 vs. Detroit, supported third straight game of more than 38 minutes of possession time (38:48).

2008 - His six starts at LT included a competitive effort against Pro Bowl DE Dwight Freeney on Dec. 7 at Indianapolis ... In win Dec. 14 vs. Washington, helped line lead the way for 310 net yards offense, second-highest of year behind 347 in OT at N.Y. Giants ... On Dec. 21 at Cleveland, line paved the way for 191 rushing yards in victory ... Helped clear path for season-best 204 rushing yards Dec. 28 vs. Kansas City ... Made NFL debut Sept. 14 vs. Tennessee, playing on special teams and as extra blocker in short-yardage offense ... Saw some action with base offense Nov. 2 vs. Jacksonville, spotting Levi Jones at LT, and also played in short-yardage formation.

[DogofWar1]

Just the reason they used on the waiver wire to release him. I've seen a bunch saying he's good to go withing 2 weeks.

I'm starting to think that as well. I mean Willie Smith and Mo Hurt looked halfway decent last year

Well, hopefully he avoids signing anywhere for 2 weeks so we can work out the cap crap and get money enough to sign him.

I'll also bet OL gets draft picks, but latest insider tweets say we might be interested in Brandon Taylor too, so the 3rd rounder has competition from safety.

[trez]

Why do they HATE offensive linemen? Kory Lichtensteiger? Give me a break. The dude was sub-par to average BEFORE he blew out THREE ligaments in his knee.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

I think ur 3rd round pick is going to be a G. Really hope Brown is ready to go. If not RGIII is gonna be in trouble if we dont bring another T in...

[Alcoholic Zebra]

There's a report coming out that Winston failed his physical after breaking his ankle? Someone follow up...

He had surgery in February. He said had he known he was getting released, he would have had surgery in January and it would have been fully healed by now. Supposedly it was a fracture?

---------- Post added March-14th-2012 at 09:49 AM ----------


Why do they HATE offensive linemen? Kory Lichtensteiger? Give me a break. The dude was sub-par to average BEFORE he blew out THREE ligaments in his knee.

Well I disagree with the first part of your post. But did he blow out all 3 ligaments or just 1? If it's 3, it's serious.

---------- Post added March-14th-2012 at 09:50 AM ----------


I'm starting to think that as well. I mean Willie Smith and Mo Hurt looked halfway decent last year

Willie Smith looked a bit better than Hurt. Hurt is just too raw, and needs a full offseason of some serious strength and conditioning. Hurt was a little too inconsistent.

[jayneal7]

Does anyone have a clue which O-linemen the Skins have brought in/offered so far? Grubbs is the only name I've heard...

[FrFan]

Does anyone have a clue which O-linemen the Skins have brought in/offered so far? Grubbs is the only name I've heard...

Demetrius Bell 6'5" 307lbs OT 28 years-old, visited yesterday (Friday).

[deejaydana]

I'm encouraging in that Shannan always hung hit hat on a solid Oline. He put together some really good Olinemen before he parted ways with Denver and while we don't have early picks this year, I'm hoping him to continue his solid drafting of line talent. You can't go anywhere as a team without it.

[jayneal7]

Demetrius Bell 6'5" 307lbs OT 28 years-old, visited yesterday (Friday).

Thanks!

[planter]

Skins seem to be skimping on O line.

Take note NFC East QB Killas and pro bowl NTs.

[Win4us]

Not a fan at all of the later round flyer picks to fill an o-line. I'll wait until after this draft before i can judge ShanAllen on o-line picks though.

BUT, if RT and or G isn't addressed with either the 3rd rounder, or at worst one of the 4ths then i see it as neglect. Like leaving your kids at Chucky Cheese kind of neglect.

[IHOPSkins]

Two words - Eric Winston

Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston Winston

Winston for shizzle........

Yup Sign Winston ......

....... I hope we can get Winston......

i agree with the sentiment.. It would be nice to get Winston.....

Winston should be a no brainer for us.....

...... sign Winston!

Yeah, the second I heard Winston was cut, he became #1 on my wish list.

Winston,.....

....... I would love to get Winston

.... I love Winston.....

.....Winston would be a perfect fit.......

...... I would love Winston.......

.....Eric Winston (T): 6'7", 302. 28 years old, played 4 seasons with Houston as the Right Tackle. Completing the right side of the Houston line, he's one of the best RTs in the game. Knows Kyle and the ZBS, and he should be one of our top targets IMO.......

Eric Winston | T Previous Team: Houston Exp: 6 years
Analysis: Winston is going to visit the Dolphins, Chiefs and Rams, a league source told NFL Network's Jason La Canfora. Winston was a surprise cut by the Texans on Monday. La Canfora reported Friday that the Redskins also are interested.

http://www.nfl.com/freeagency

HTTR

[terpskins10]

Not a fan at all of the later round flyer picks to fill an o-line. I'll wait until after this draft before i can judge ShanAllen on o-line picks though.

BUT, if RT and or G isn't addressed with either the 3rd rounder, or at worst one of the 4ths then i see it as neglect. Like leaving your kids at Chucky Cheese kind of neglect.

To be fair, the starting OL for the Broncos' SB team were a UDFA, a 10 rounder, a 7th rounder, a 3rd rounder, and a 7th rounder.

After that, the long-time starting LT for the Broncos was Matt Lepsis, a converted TE UDFA.

If he can build the same kind of offensive lines here that he did in Denver, it doesn't follow that we HAVE to draft the players early. That being said, I do think we invest one of our fourth rounders into an OL prospect. That third rounder is going toward a DB, IMO.

[Win4us]

That 98 Bronco o-line may have been underrated wrt their draft positions, though they still didn't give up ANYWHERE near the sacks and qb hits that our current team has this past season. Not to forget they sprung TD for over 2k yards rushing that season.

This 2011-12 season we gave up the 3rd worst qb hits and only 25th in the league in rypg. Basically, the same effort coach put into the 97,98 seasons ain't cutting it nowadays.

You get what you put in and IMHO besides Trent we have yet to put a real effort into the line with the results showing on the field. I'll reserve full judgement tho until THIS draft has transpired since he may suprise me with a 3rd round RT.

[JerseyGator]

Skins lead the league in total QB hits over the last 3 years. Jags were #2. Their QB was so battered he took a year off. Then there's the Rams and their battered QB who was shut down early this year.

[ConnSKINS26]

To be fair, the starting OL for the Broncos' SB team were a UDFA, a 10 rounder, a 7th rounder, a 3rd rounder, and a 7th rounder.

After that, the long-time starting LT for the Broncos was Matt Lepsis, a converted TE UDFA.

If he can build the same kind of offensive lines here that he did in Denver, it doesn't follow that we HAVE to draft the players early. That being said, I do think we invest one of our fourth rounders into an OL prospect. That third rounder is going toward a DB, IMO.

You're forgetting one detail--the types of players that Shanahan wanted for his revolutionary ZBS back then were not desired by nearly any other teams in the NFL.

Now, in 2012, I'd wager that about half the teams in the league, at LEAST, utilize some form of the ZBS, or at least use concepts from it.

The players that fell to the 7th/10th/undrafted area are now coveted by other ZBS teams.

Just as with the 3-4 and the tweener pass-rushers that have blossomed on many teams. The earlier 3-4 teams could stock up on talent that fit their scheme back then, for practically nothing in the draft. Now, a huge portion of the league runs the 3-4.

[RWJ]

Eric Winston | T Previous Team: Houston Exp: 6 years
Analysis: Winston is going to visit the Dolphins, Chiefs and Rams, a league source told NFL Network's Jason La Canfora. Winston was a surprise cut by the Texans on Monday. La Canfora reported Friday that the Redskins also are interested.

http://www.nfl.com/freeagency


Thank you for putting this together IHOP. Love to have the guy. He would be the best signing of the entire FA period, IMO. I love the Garcon signing but Winston's would plug a very BIG hole.
HTTR

[Rufus T Firefly]

Eric Winston | T Previous Team: Houston Exp: 6 years
Analysis: Winston is going to visit the Dolphins, Chiefs and Rams, a league source told NFL Network's Jason La Canfora. Winston was a surprise cut by the Texans on Monday. La Canfora reported Friday that the Redskins also are interested.

http://www.nfl.com/freeagency

HTTR

Good news, thanks. Loved the multi-quote, btw.

[SkinsTillIDie]

With our picks 3, 4, 4, 5 - I'd expect us to add a couple offensive line prospects. As fans, we're so caught up in the big names, the free agents, the players who have clearly shown to produce on the NFL level or clearly promise to be an immediate upgrade (i.e. 1st or 2nd round pick).

But we've got such a young offense -- RGIII (22), Hankerson (23), Garcon (25), Morgan (25), Davis (24), Williams (23), Helu (24) -- I think the best bet will be to continue to build the offensive line through the draft.

Some of the best lines in the league were built mostly on mid-to-low round picks. Shanahan's already proven able to get some respectable play from discarded linemen (Maurice Hurt, 7th round pick; Willie Smith, undrafted; Tyler Polumbus, mid-season pickup off the street). I'd like to see what he can develop with better prospects that have time to learn and gel with an actual offseason of training.

Houston's offensive line last year wasn't the best in the league over night. They had to go through growing pains in years before that... Let's continue to add young players to the group and believe that in time, we'll form a solid, consistent group.

More than anything, the offensive line sees strongest success via chemistry and cohesion. One could argue its the area of the team that is least benefited from the big-name free agent signing that so many fans clamor for

[Stophovr6]

Funny how no one takes JLC's word for anything around here unless it's something the fans want. I think it's a bad sign Winston isn't scheduled to visit' AND that he wants a big contract.

[haraldjun]

Eric Winston and Geoff Schwartz

[Oldskool]

Winston is looking to be paid and probably be the highest paid RT in the game. As much as I'd love to have the guy and think he'd be perfect for this team, I can't see the Skins paying him a ton of cash when they are at about ~$9.5m above the cap and still have other needs in FA. There is also the need to squirrel away cash for the rookies as well.

[Stophovr6]

Winston to KC. We were never in this race despite what the media says. This is a lot like last year when we passed on almost every touted oline fa.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Winston signs with the Chiefs.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/17/eric-winston-is-the-chiefs-new-right-tackle/

[RWJ]

Looks like Bell now.

[dcthug]

Skins seem to be skimping on O line.

Take note NFC East QB Killas and pro bowl NTs.

I may be in the minority but I don't think our line was that bad last year. I mean we gave up 10/11 sacks in one game and more than half of those were because the QB held the ball like he was wearing a red practice jersey. Take that one game away and I would bet the skins are in the top 15 of o'lines last year. I think the team can addreess depth with 1 free agent move and within the draft.

[DogofWar1]

It looks like Oline FAs, at least in terms of starters, are down to Bell and Rachel. If instead we're looking for backups (some of which we already have on the roster), I have no idea where we would look.

All I know is that if this is the year to build offense, and we've addressed WR in FA, then you can probably bet that 3+ of our picks in the 3rd and later will be Olinemen. It'll be fun to see who we pick.

[redskindan07]

Perhaps some OL help will get released

[wildbill1952]

I may be in the minority but I don't think our line was that bad last year. I mean we gave up 10/11 sacks in one game and more than half of those were because the QB held the ball like he was wearing a red practice jersey. Take that one game away and I would bet the skins are in the top 15 of o'lines last year. I think the team can addreess depth with 1 free agent move and within the draft.Are you talking about the sacks and QB hits and that sort of stuff? Yep, the sacks (41) and QB hits (103) made the Skins the third best at allowing their QB to get hit. Take away the 11 sacks from the Buffalo game and they move up to just the 6th best at letting their QB get hit. So, if letting your QB get pummeled is a good thing, then the Skins are deifinitely among the top 15 Olines. With Trent Williams responsible for only 6 of that total, that means the rest of the Skins offensive line was only responsible for 143 sacks and QB hits. That works out to the QB being hit one out of every 4 throws. So just adding 1 depth guy in FA or the draft ought to shore up that little statistical anomaly quite nicely. We won't even go into being 25th in rushing yards.

Welcome to the Fedex turf, Mr. Griffin!

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2011&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true

[Hitman21ST]

Are you talking about the sacks and QB hits and that sort of stuff? Yep, the sacks (41) and QB hits (103) made the Skins the third best at allowing their QB to get hit. Take away the 11 sacks from the Buffalo game and they move up to just the 6th best at letting their QB get hit. So, if letting your QB get pummeled is a good thing, then the Skins are deifinitely among the top 15 Olines. With Trent Williams responsible for only 6 of that total, that means the rest of the Skins offensive line was only responsible for 143 sacks and QB hits. That works out to the QB being hit one out of every 4 throws. So just adding 1 depth guy in FA or the draft ought to shore up that little statistical anomaly quite nicely. We won't even go into being 25th in rushing yards.

Welcome to the Fedex turf, Mr. Griffin!

Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&tabSeq=2&season=2011&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true

Of course, if you count just sacks, our 41 is 12th in the league. If you take out the 11 sack game and instead go with the average of two sacks a game, that drops down to only 32 sacks, which would be tied for 22nd. QB hits is more on the QB than on the line, considering that Rex and Beck are notorious for holding onto the ball way too long.

Perhaps our rank of 25 in rushing yards has something to do with us ranking 25th in rushing attempts, too? Our line wasn't too bad.

[RWJ]

Other options other than Bell that might be of interest to the Skins are OT Anthony Collins, OT Adam Goldberg.

[wildbill1952]

Some of the best lines in the league were built mostly on mid-to-low round picks. Shanahan's already proven able to get some respectable play from discarded linemen (Maurice Hurt, 7th round pick; Willie Smith, undrafted; Tyler Polumbus, mid-season pickup off the street). I'd like to see what he can develop with better prospects that have time to learn and gel with an actual offseason of training.

Houston's offensive line last year wasn't the best in the league over night. They had to go through growing pains in years before that... Let's continue to add young players to the group and believe that in time, we'll form a solid, consistent group.

More than anything, the offensive line sees strongest success via chemistry and cohesion. One could argue its the area of the team that is least benefited from the big-name free agent signing that so many fans clamor forThere's two ways to look at playing the 7th round picks and the undrafted free agents, the castoffs from the other teams. One is to think that they're playing because the coaches "coached them up" or "they spent some addiitonal time in the weight room" or they got "more game-time experience". One alternative theory is that these misfit toys are playing because the OLine we had was just bad.

The stats, whether you choose to ignore them or not, still show a poor offensive line. 25th in rushing yards with 3 very good backs. 3rd in QB hits behind only St. Louis and Seattle. When you look at the one talented OLineman the Skins have in Trent Williams, you see the difference in protection. Trent Williams, against the quality rushers opposing teams have to put up against him, allowed 6 QB hits + QB sacks. The 4 other members of the OLine? 143. Blame the stat as much as you want on the QB, but the fact remains - talented offensive linemen let their QB get hit less often than less talented Olinemen.

Spending time gelling is good. Yes, other teams get Oline in later rounds that turn out good. But a policy of only seeking the unwanted castoffs of the draft and other teams has only shown one form of consistency - and that is poor line play on a very consistent basis.

[tml6157]

Bell has serious talent no doubt about that. He can be a legit LT In the league if he could stay healthy. I hope we sign Bell cheap, draft Potter and roll with Bell, Potter and Smith as our T's to go with Trent.

[RWJ]

Bell has serious talent no doubt about that. He can be a legit LT In the league if he could stay healthy. I hope we sign Bell cheap, draft Potter and roll with Bell, Potter and Smith as our T's to go with Trent.

Exluding his past injuries, Bell is probably the best available talent now after Winston signed.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I suppose you would have tried to replace the OLs of the Texans, Saints and Bills when they were god-awful due to lack of experience. After all, Chris Myers was a late round castoff from the Broncos! Mike Brisiel was an UDFA who was awful his first few years! Eric Winston was a mid-rounder who sat for his first 2 or so years! They had absolutely no chance of getting better! Also Duane Brown used to be absolutely awful.

Also, Torain is not a good back by any means, and Helu and Royster didn't play that much until the last month and a half.

I'm not saying that our OL situation is rosy, but it's not the disaster it was in 2009 either.

[Missouri_Skins_Fan]

If it makes you guys feel any better.
Any scrap heat we put together on O-line can't be much worse, than what RG3 was rolling with @Baylor.

Imagine if our O-line gives RG3 more time, than he ever had at Baylor?
Now that my friends...is scary.

Sure, we can't have turnstiles & think we're going to protect RG3 or Rex.

But having a QB than can escape & anticipate using his legs to buy time, will be huge not only for the offense & Offensive Line. But by extending what would normally be, failed 3rd down opportunities...give our offense more 1st down conversions, Time of possession & more breathers for the Defense.

[-JB-]

I'm glad the Skins arent panicking & overpaying free agents like in past years. With a 3rd & two 4th rounders, there is a good possibility Shanahan can find one, maybe two OL prospects..

[SkinsHokieFan]

Not making a real run at Winston is disappointing. Shoring up the tackle spots for the next 4 years would have been a very nice luxury.

[RWJ]

Not making a real run at Winston is disappointing. Shoring up the tackle spots for the next 4 years would have been a very nice luxury.

I agree. Bell MIGHT be a nice consilation prize though.

[DogofWar1]

I'm not saying that our OL situation is rosy, but it's not the disaster it was in 2009 either.

This is very true. 2009 just looked...bad. Trent's going into his 3rd year, and should be able to really anchor that left half of the line, and our younger depth guys proved very capable in a pinch.

Others have mentioned that the biggest weak point right now is Brown at RT. I'd like to see him replaced sooner rather than later, but if it's Bell I'd be worried about going from one RT who's struggled with injuries to another. I'd like to see them both on the roster honestly, with Bell starting and Brown as backup. Then, after the draft and perhaps after the first set of camps we can cut whoever we feel isn't performing up to snuff.

I think we're still in a long term bind though. If Bell gets signed and can stay healthy then our tackles should be fine, but the interior of the line is still C level. That's not to say we can't get a good effort out of the line as a whole, but ideally we'd want to upgrade everywhere but LT, and that's even if Bell signs, in order to have insurance against his injuries.

Considering no draft in the past 10 years has really had any focus on the line outside of maybe one or two players (and then it was either a first rounder and late rounder or ALL late rounders), it will be interesting to see what our FO can do this draft if they take 3-4 linemen, especially due to the fact we finally have a competent group of people upstairs.

[Leonard Washington]

Not making a real run at Winston is disappointing. Shoring up the tackle spots for the next 4 years would have been a very nice luxury.

I agree. He seemed to be the type of guy you "overpay" to acquire. RT has been a weak point since Jansen started to decline.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

We've been unlucky as hell the past few years with injuries on the OLine. LG and RT are still really suspect at this point and I'm ok with filling it with FA + draft. But it definitely has to get done cause it's still a problem, imo.

[LightningBuggs]

How bout former Card Rex Hadnot? Doesn't Shanny like versatile guys?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/18/cardinals-release-rex-hadnot/

[jivelikenice]

if we sign Bell I'm feeling great about our FA class. He would make us 4 deep at tackle. The interior can be addressed in the draft....I do think that we are in dire need of a backup interior lineman considering Kory is coming off a big injury. Rachal would be a good cheap signing who can push for a starting job and worst case provide some depth.

[MrSilverMaC]

If it makes you guys feel any better.
Any scrap heat we put together on O-line can't be much worse, than what RG3 was rolling with @Baylor.

Imagine if our O-line gives RG3 more time, than he ever had at Baylor?
Now that my friends...is scary.

Sure, we can't have turnstiles & think we're going to protect RG3 or Rex.

But having a QB than can escape & anticipate using his legs to buy time, will be huge not only for the offense & Offensive Line. But by extending what would normally be, failed 3rd down opportunities...give our offense more 1st down conversions, Time of possession & more breathers for the Defense.

Griffin himself actually offers a lot of ability to make the line play or at least look better. His accuracy down field and the fact he isn't afraid to throw it deep will force d's to play a little more honest, his mobility as you mentioned allows him to either make a play on his feet or buy time to find an open receiver, and just him getting the ball out on time will negate a lot of the pressure that Rex, Beck, Campbell, and Brunell faced when they were starting.

None of that is to say we don't need to improve the line, but if the line plays like it did at the beginning of the year last year Griffin will be ok until we can actually upgrade the line.if we don't pick up an FA or draft someone who can start whee we could use an upgrade.

[planter]

I think OL gets addressed in the draft. Shanny doesn't really spend big bucks on FA OL, don't need to with the ZBS.

I'm becoming increasingly concerned that Shanahan's ZBS scheme is about to meet NFC East reality...and it won't be pretty. Ware, Tuck, pierre paul, dominant NTs meet the Skins lo budget "hogs".

[Hitman21ST]

I'm becoming increasingly concerned that Shanahan's ZBS scheme is about to meet NFC East reality...and it won't be pretty. Ware, Tuck, pierre paul, dominant NTs meet the Skins lo budget "hogs".

Our "budget hogs" are going to do just fine. We've been doing it for two years now and there hasn't really been that much difference.

[J-bomb]

c4man5282‏@c4man5282Reply
Retweet
@Jsteelzextreme cool…so we must be really interested in Bell. 2 me he is a very interesting player if healthy and can start RT day 1 4 us

[terpfan]

I really, really want Bell now. Sign him and we can draft a OG in the third or fourth round. I'd be OK with that.

[dswerdlw]

D. Bell played left tackle for the Bills, right? Has he ever played right tackle? I know it's not a big deal, but I was wondering. Sometimes, I think that T. Williams might be a better than average left tackle who would be a killer right tackle.

[RWJ]

LT are supposed to be more athletic than RT so you can't go wrong with LT moving to the right side. Bell would be a nice signing.

[NLC1054]

Like I said, I wasn't as comfortable running to the outside as I would have liked. Running between the tackle and the guard was usually all right, but edge running really wasn't working for us this year.

I don't think the scheme is really designed to be an edge run scheme. The point of the Zone Blocking Scheme and the stretch play is to get the d-line moving horizontally, open up holes, and then right when the back says daylight, he cuts up inside the whole. That's what "one cut back" sort of means; it's not about getting outside and taking it up field. It's about stretch the d-line, opening the hole, the running back reading the first hole he sees, squaring his shoulders and getting up field. The only time you're supposed to take it outside is one the o-line doesn't open holes.

That was the problem with Torain a lot of the time; instead of cutting up field and getting moving north and south when he found daylight, he'd try to take runs to the outside and ignore some of the holes the line open up. This was especially true this season, after the Rams game. The scheme is designed so that you never really take a huge loss, yet Torain was getting stopped in the backfield. If he just cut upfield and drove towards the line, he'd at least NOT lose yardage.

Hightower was better, but it was the same sort of the deal; if he identified a hole, he was better at cutting up and squaring his shoulders and going north and south. But if he didn't he'd take it to the outside, and then he'd get stuffed and it was usually a loss.

Roy and Evan rarely got stopped in the backfield, because they were a LOT better about sticking their heel in the ground and getting going vertically. Helu would stick his foot in the ground, hit the whole and burst through it, and it's the same with Evan. Hell, Royster isn't the fastest guy in the universe, but he PLAYS fast just from the fact that he's quicker to the hole and accelerating through it.

Watch Terrell Davis highlights and you won't see him taking runs all the way outside very often. Same thing with Portis when he was in Denver.

That's how I see it, anyway..

(I dumped this hear instead of cluttering up the free agency thread, in case anyone is confused.)

[DogofWar1]

It looks like we really like Bell. Hopefully something he did over the offseason addressed his injury concerns. If he can play a full season he would be an excellent addition and would be the other anchor on the line.


How bout former Card Rex Hadnot? Doesn't Shanny like versatile guys?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/18/cardinals-release-rex-hadnot/

I was actually thinking he might be worth at least looking at. He's right around the size of a ZBS interior lineman, he's actually the exact weight of Will Montgomery. Depth across the interior of the line would be great to have, so if he can be had for cheap and fits the system I think he'd be someone to at least look at.

[#BgMase76#]

Everyone grade Chris Chester we was an under performer for the Ravens, I didnt like the move then and I am still unsure of him now.

Yeah, i was thinking he'd be an upgrade but no. While he was better than Brown (which really isn't saying much) I can't remember a play where he dominated anyone. I understand the ZBS but remember Denver having some real nasty biggums on the line. I really don't see anyone on our oline who really attacks off the ball. I love watching TW own demarcus ware on passing downs.

[MR2Drift]

Are any of the OL guys we drafted outside of Trent worth a damn?

[Dukes and Skins]

D. Bell played left tackle for the Bills, right? Has he ever played right tackle? I know it's not a big deal, but I was wondering. Sometimes, I think that T. Williams might be a better than average left tackle who would be a killer right tackle.

Trent was playing at an All-Pro level at LT before his suspension lets leave him there for good. You dont draft a guy like him who's a freak athlete and everything Shanny wants in a LT and then move him to RT because of a free agency move

[Voice_of_Reason]

Are any of the OL guys we drafted outside of Trent worth a damn?

A whole bunch of guys we drafted or picked up in FA played some, and at the end of the season, started to play ok. Hurt started a bunch of games as a rookie at LG, and looked inconsistent. But it was his rookie hear, and he was thrown into the first. Willie Smith played ok at times filling in for Trent when he was suspended. Polumbus wasn't a rookie, but played decently for a backup at RT. At least we finally have some young guys who have some experience, that can either develop as starters or at last as backups.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Would have liked to hear that we were looking at Geoff Schwartz. He coul dbe the bargain of FA this year. I like Bell also, so I'm not complaining about that possibility. Frankly, I think we could afford to sign both.

[Dukes and Skins]

Would have liked to hear that we were looking at Geoff Schwartz. He coul dbe the bargain of FA this year. I like Bell also, so I'm not complaining about that possibility. Frankly, I think we could afford to sign both.

shhhh dont tell Goodell and Mara that.... :ols:

[Rufus T Firefly]

shhhh dont tell Goodell and Mara that.... :ols:

Well, I suppose that would harm competitive balance....

[BleedBNG]

I'd like us to get Anthony Collins (from the Bengals)

[RabidFan]

I'd like to get Collins and Bell and move one to guard....we'd be set for years. If the cap allows that would be my best case scenario as we don't know how Lich is coming along back from a blown knee. Willie Smith I hope turns into a starter at some point.

[Oldskool]

What scares me is that there hasn't even been a peep about Collins visiting any teams or even resigning with the Bungles.

As for Demetrius Bell, he is the epitome of inconsistency. I wouldn't spend much money on him or count on him being a starter if I were the Skins. The Bills OL has been awful for years, and he's one of the reasons.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Excuse me!?

They were #1 in sacks given up, averaged nearly 5 yards a pop on the ground, and the massive injuries that hit them are a big reason they fell apart down the stretch. And this with a mediocre QB under center. The Bills have had OL problems, but now they look like the textbook example of how TO build an OL without throwing a bunch of resources at it.

Bell has the potential to be an ELITE tackle in a ZBS, because he's already a great pass protector, and he's a good run blocker in a power scheme, so his gifts will be magnified in the ZBS.

I'd argue he's better than Winston if you disregard the injury history. And he has a lot less mileage.

[dswerdlw]

I'd be onboard with Anthony Collins. Pollack is also intriguing at guard. If I'm not mistaken, he was a highly regarded center coming out of college. Versatility is always a good thing.

[NLC1054]

Um, Bengals fans seem to be thrilled the Bengals haven't wanted to touch Collins with a ten foot pole.

One would think that doesn't exactly point to finding a gem of an offensive lineman.

[RWJ]

The ONLY possible red flag about Collins is that he was at Jerome Simpson's house the day that package arrived. One has to wonder if maybe he may be involved in drugs.

[Oldskool]

Excuse me!?

They were #1 in sacks given up, averaged nearly 5 yards a pop on the ground, and the massive injuries that hit them are a big reason they fell apart down the stretch. And this with a mediocre QB under center. The Bills have had OL problems, but now they look like the textbook example of how TO build an OL without throwing a bunch of resources at it.

Bell has the potential to be an ELITE tackle in a ZBS, because he's already a great pass protector, and he's a good run blocker in a power scheme, so his gifts will be magnified in the ZBS.



Bell cannot stay healthy. His entire 2011 campaign was highlighted by injuries and a meniscus surgery at the end of this year and a microfracture surgery 2 years ago. Also, his 32 1/2-inch arms don't bode well for zone blocking on the outside (compare that to Trent's 34 1/4-in arm length). No way the Skins should pay him OT money. If anything he could be OG depth but both of our guards are better than this guy.

[acuratl1984]

The ONLY possible red flag about Collins is that he was at Jerome Simpson's house the day that package arrived. One has to wonder if maybe he may be involved in drugs.

Shouldn't the Bengal's want him back then?

[Oldskool]

Um, Bengals fans seem to be thrilled the Bengals haven't wanted to touch Collins with a ten foot pole.

One would think that doesn't exactly point to finding a gem of an offensive lineman.

Collins isn't a good fit for their power blocking scheme but their RB's have fared well with him in the lineup..


Anthony Collins - T - Bengals
The Bengals are 7-2 with an average of 110 rushing yards per game in RT Anthony Collins' nine starts over the past two seasons.
Maybe they should stop messing around with Dennis Roland and Andre Smith, and just start Collins. A 25-year-old entering a contract season, Collins played only 281 snaps of offense in 2010. He started seven games the season prior, and according to Pro Football Focus allowed just six QB pressures all year.
Source: bengals.com Mon, May 9, 2011 09:06:00 PM

He's one guy that I think would be ok in a ZBS. His 40 time of 5.54 seconds at the 2008 combine is worrisome.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Bell cannot stay healthy. His entire 2011 campaign was highlighted by injuries and a meniscus surgery at the end of this year and a microfracture surgery 2 years ago. Also, his 32 1/2-inch arms don't bode well for zone blocking on the outside (compare that to Trent's 34 1/4-in arm length). No way the Skins should pay him OT money. If anything he could be OG depth but both of our guards are better than this guy.

Dude, Bell can play. I don't know what you've been watching, but he is a very good tackle. He is instantly the 2nd or 3rd best OL on the team if he signs imo.

Interesting because Shanny took Trent over Okung's 36 inch arms. Not to mention that guys like Jake Long and Joe Thomas have "short arms". Also, source on 32 1/2? I've seen as high as 33 1/4.

The injury history is an obvious concern. But it's not like he's reinjuring the same areas, and the upside is too great to ignore.

[Monk4thaHALL]

concerning Bell:

- There was a very flattering PFF article written prior to this season, citing Bell as a top performer in 2010 at LT. It's the kind of article that can sway opinion of the casual and alter perception, if used as propaganda.

I'm willing to bet that PFF is used more often than not around the web to support or dispute positives or negatives on a lot of players.

Ironically, the year prior, he was considered, by the same folks at PFF, as one of the worst tackles in the game.

And another sidelight to PFF, most recently, for free agency the corner from detroit – Eric Wright who signed with Tampa but was reportedly pursued by the skins as well. He was considered by PFF as one of the worst corners available in FA, however he was one of the first signees. PFF gave him a negative "-20 odd" score/grade - whatever that means in their terminology.

So it just reinforces the idea that PFF has opinion just as much as the next guy. And perhaps it's not reflective entirely of what front offices or coaches think / use for grading, etc.

PFF should be taken with a grain of salt, in all matters – in my opinion.
__



Bell strikes me a very mercurial from game to game.

One thing about JB is that he's ok for about 60 out of 65 plays a game. It's the 5 or so handful in which he is totally outmatched and gives up a drive altering sack / forced fumble that really hurts.

Bell just seems to range wildly from one game to the next. Or one season to the next.

What I saw from the 4 games that Bell has played in this year:

He looked good against NE. He looked not so good against Cincy. Almost polar opposite games. The positives I saw in the NE game, were switched to flaws in the Cincy game.

- A limited power base. He gets pushed back quite a bit. Bull rush sends him on his heels. This is the most pronounced demerit that I can see in his game. He absorbs the contact rather than giving it out.

- I noticed some overextension and lunging in pass-pro, in order to keep the defender from rounding the corner. However, it's not a deficiency, like his power base. He actually can move his feet and has some athletic upside.

To be fair to him, you really don't see him beat around the edge by speed for a sack. A counterpoint though, is that the Bills have a quick release pass game from the Spread they use. The ball is out very quickly, so rush has little time to get to Fitz, in general. Thus nullifying the fact that Bell gives ground.

- Bell did give up a sack against the Bengals. It was a straight power rush, bull rush and Bell just couldn't hold back his man and Fitz was swallowed up.

- He is not as agile or athletic downfield or in "space" in the run game, as what you'd expect after seeing his mirror technique, strangely enough.

J. Brown still offers good athleticism in the run game and Bell doesn't supersede that, IMO.

Nor can he compare to what Trent W. can do (few can). Just my observation. So while his slide and mirror sometimes checks out with athleticism, the downfield blocking seems determined upon his effort or lack thereof.

- Bell doesn't have much push or punch in the run game. He basically shield blocks defenders - uses angles to cut-off pursuit, but won't blow someone up.

Fine for zbs, but I disagree about his "power" blocking aspect of his repertoire, as mentioned earlier in this thread. I didn't see it.

- I've noticed that he has a poor "internal clock." He hits 1st contact and disengages after just a few seconds (3 or so seconds). At times, he wheels around to watch the play, rather than go whistle to whistle.

That's big to me. Not going whistle to whistle is part of who he is as a player. It's a mentality, not a skill level thing.

And that's really the rub for me as to why he seems inconsistent. It seems to boil down to effort.

- A couple of times I saw him chip a defender and go downfield to latch onto someone else, so he has athleticism, no doubt. But that was just the minority report. Mostly he just sort-of gives up on the play after the 1st contact.

*Maybe that was part of his conditioning in the early part of the season.
*Maybe residual issues with certain injuries ...?

- Also there is the shoulder injury. I have no idea how sever it was, he only played 4 games this last year, the first four and has missed all after that. Did he need surgery? Is it recurrent? That has to be figured out.

- A subtle thing too, he would have to transition from the left side to the right side. Maybe that's an easy thing.

I'm certain most people would think it is because of some preconceived stigma that RTs are less talented than LTs. I think that in today's NFL, with guys like Ware, who can rush from either side and often enough over-top the RT or Matthews rushing from over-top the RT, the right tackle need to be just as solid as the LT – in terms of technique and discipline.

So it's all about solid technique and comfort of the player himself. It might be a very minor thing, I'm sure, but nonetheless a transition for Bell, if asked to play RT.
__

just some thoughts of mine.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Excellent post and insight, thank you Monk.

You seem to best highlight why we're talking to Bell at this juncture: he may be a better fit in the zone blocking scheme, while inconsistency and a red flag concerning effort have arrested interest and probably the money offers that he has been seeking.

He does seem to have some similarities with the pre-draft Trent Williams, in terms of athleticism and questionable mental hangups. Shanny also apparently is the type of coach who believes he can get the best out of anyone... Seems like a perfect match




- There was a very flattering PFF article written prior to this season, citing Bell as a top performer in 2010 at LT. It's the kind of article that can sway opinion of the casual and alter perception, if used as propaganda.

I'm willing to bet that PFF is used more often than not around the web to support or dispute positives or negatives on a lot of players.

Ironically, the year prior, he was considered, by the same folks at PFF, as one of the worst tackles in the game.

And another sidelight to PFF, most recently, for free agency the corner from detroit – Eric Wright who signed with Tampa but was reportedly pursued by the skins as well. He was considered by PFF as one of the worst corners available in FA, however he was one of the first signees. PFF gave him a negative "-20 odd" score/grade - whatever that means in their terminology.

So it just reinforces the idea that PFF has opinion just as much as the next guy. And perhaps it's not reflective entirely of what front offices or coaches think / use for grading, etc.

PFF should be taken with a grain of salt, in all matters – in my opinion.


EXACTLY. It's appalling that PFF is now being quoted as a legitimate source of scouting by writers at ESPN. The people at PFF don't even have access to the "ALL-22;" they're merely watching the same TV footage as the rest of us.

Meaning they can't even see every player on every play. They don't know assignments. They can only partially gauge the play of the offensive line, the routes of some receivers, and so forth.

And they are the opinions of very few.

The reliance on PFF (he has a +x number!) is almost as lazy as an argument for/against a player based purely on casual statistics.

Also, Sean Locklear was the highest rated pass protecting tackle in all of the NFL in 2010. According to PFF

[KDawg]

- A subtle thing too, he would have to transition from the left side to the right side. Maybe that's an easy thing.

I'm certain most people would think it is because of some preconceived stigma that RTs are less talented than LTs. I think that in today's NFL, with guys like Ware, who can rush from either side and often enough over-top the RT or Matthews rushing from over-top the RT, the right tackle need to be just as solid as the LT – in terms of technique and discipline.

So it's all about solid technique and comfort of the player himself. It might be a very minor thing, I'm sure, but nonetheless a transition for Bell, if asked to play RT.
.

It's not easy to transition from the right to the left side. It's like using your right and left hand. Perhaps that's not the best analogy, because it's probably a bit easier to switch sides on the line than it is to use your left hand efficiently if you're right handed. But, the comparison is decent. It involves a different body lean, different power/kick step, it's just different. It'll be different in drills and scrimmages, and then even more different in live game action. Perception, peripherals, everything is much less clear when switching sides. Some guys can do it no problem. Some guys have difficulty in transitioning. But it's never an easy task.

[Oldskool]

Dude, Bell can play. I don't know what you've been watching, but he is a very good tackle. He is instantly the 2nd or 3rd best OL on the team if he signs imo.

Interesting because Shanny took Trent over Okung's 36 inch arms. Not to mention that guys like Jake Long and Joe Thomas have "short arms". Also, source on 32 1/2? I've seen as high as 33 1/4.

The injury history is an obvious concern. But it's not like he's reinjuring the same areas, and the upside is too great to ignore.

Trent was taken over Okung due to overall athleticism. Arm length is still a huge part of grading a OT, but in this scheme so is speed and technique. Neither Thomas or Long play in this system, nor do I think they'd thrive in a zone blocking environment.

Bell has potential, I will grant you that. However his injury history almost completely negates it. He's worth signing as a backup at the right price.

[Jumbo]

It will be interesting to see how this thread does today. :cool:

Yesterday, you couldn't keep 237 posts about All Things O-LIne out of the FA thread that should have been posted in this thread instead, and now watch---it will be quiet in here even though the new FA thread shuts down that stuff (which it shouldn't have even needed to do). :ols:

I love this place. :pfft:

[Hitman21ST]

Hoping we can get at least something today in regards to the OL, even if it's just depth.

[planter]

Our "budget hogs" are going to do just fine. We've been doing it for two years now and there hasn't really been that much difference.

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs and QB Killas are salivating...

[Epochalypse]

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs tackles and QB Killas are salivating...

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

[Monk4thaHALL]

This one goes out to T. Williams, Hurt, Monty, Chris C. and JB, Kory too.

BELIEVE IN YOURSELF


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2ZShmt19uQ

__

Oh and Donald Stephenson or Jeff Allen, whichever one of you guys that gets drafted.

[Oldskool]

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs tackles and QB Killas are salivating...

You are way off so let's just set some logic here..

1st of all, the interior of the Skins OL was decimated with injuries last year.

2nd of all, a good portion of the sacks given up last year were in the Buffalo game were culpability was directly on Beck.

3rd of all, the ZBS does have an inherent weakness when going up against 3-4 defenses (both LeBeau and Phillips versions, for different reasons). This is in great part due to having had smaller centers and guards in the past. That is being changed with the more modern version of the ZBS where interior lineman are now ~300lbs and are not blown away by NT's

4th of all, teams that use the ZBS, such as the Skins, Packers and Texans all practice against a 3-4 defense every day during camp and know their weaknesses.

The problems that the Skins had last year were an issue of personnel due to incompetence (Beck) and injuries to the interior of the OL. It's not a scheme issue but rather an issue of still needing the right players for the scheme.

[planter]

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

Very good point: the RG3 factor! IMO a good draft move.

[windsofcreation]

Blake DeChristopher anyone?

http://www.hokiesports.com/football/players/dechristopher_blake.html

I think he has potential to be a great value pick later in the draft and could slide inside to play some Guard for us if he isn't mobile enough to stay in front of guys at the RT spot.

Not to mention I grew up with the guy. :ols:

[UK SKINS FAN '74]

It's not easy to transition from the right to the left side.

Aside from the injury, I think Jammal Brown has struggled with the switch across to the right.

Also, I'm not convinced the 'skins will want to overpay now for an OT unless they have totally given up on Brown - Shanahan may well still need time to decide on Brown.

I'd still consider Chester to RT if we could add a G or two via FA or the draft.

[Crazy Levi]

Only 9 teams gave up more sacks and our running game yards/carry was below average. Except LT all other positions could be upgraded. For the last several years injuries have revealed lack of depth. Dominant NTs and QB Killas are salivating...

Yeah, I just can't get on board with the whole "Our O-Line is Just Fine!" program.

Undertalented and lack of depth. We need better, just as we have for about 5 years.

Gotta be the focus of our draft efforts this season and next.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

>implying anyone said the OL was just fine

All anyone's said is that it's not a disaster, and there's real potential for improvement and growth given last year's injuries and the poor play at QB. Should we invest more in it? Yes. But should we be panicking about it? No.

People tend to think that OLs are independent walls that simply stand there and block, but in reality they're just as interdependent as any other position group.

[planter]

You are way off so let's just set some logic here..

1st of all, the interior of the Skins OL was decimated with injuries....

Agree that the Skins O line has been injury plagued for years now.

If Lich and Brown stay healthy the line may be adequate. Only LT Williams has all pro potential.

Generally speaking in football, big and agile (with technique and attitude) is better that smaller and agile (with technique and attitude). But big and agile types are rarer birds and so get drafted higher and paid more.

I have truly come to appreciate Shanny's offensive strategy. It just needs to be tweaked in his new habitat: the NFC East. The land of Ware, Osi, Tuck, Pierre Paul, Babin, Orakpo, etc......

[skinny21]

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

I'm not too sure. I wouldn't be surprised if our sack numbers go up, at least until Griffin is comfortable within the system. Maybe not, but it sure wouldn't surprise me. Of course, with the Buffalo game padding those numbers I wouldn't bet on it. Gotta temper our expectations though, particularly in regards to a rookie QB.

[DogofWar1]

I'm not too sure. I wouldn't be surprised if our sack numbers go up, at least until Griffin is comfortable within the system. Maybe not, but it sure wouldn't surprise me. Of course, with the Buffalo game padding those numbers I wouldn't bet on it. Gotta temper our expectations though, particularly in regards to a rookie QB.

I think the key will be how Shanahan teaches him ball security. Griffin easily has a fast enough release AND a strong enough arm to get the ball out of bounds on short notice. However, if Shanahan realizes that that could be a dangerous thing to ask a rookie to do in his 1st year, he might emphasize tucking and taking the sack in order to not turn the ball over.

I think our sack numbers this year will, if the line is of the same level as last year, remain fairly stagnant, minus about 7 sacks due to the whole Beck-Bills fiasco. I think after this year the number of sacks will go down pretty quickly as we improve the line little by little, but also because Griffin will grow as a QB and develop his game to take less sacks.

[skinny21]

I think the key will be how Shanahan teaches him ball security. Griffin easily has a fast enough release AND a strong enough arm to get the ball out of bounds on short notice. However, if Shanahan realizes that that could be a dangerous thing to ask a rookie to do in his 1st year, he might emphasize tucking and taking the sack in order to not turn the ball over.

I think our sack numbers this year will, if the line is of the same level as last year, remain fairly stagnant, minus about 7 sacks due to the whole Beck-Bills fiasco. I think after this year the number of sacks will go down pretty quickly as we improve the line little by little, but also because Griffin will grow as a QB and develop his game to take less sacks.

Good points, and I agree the numbers are likely to stay fairly consistent this year and then improve as the line gels and Griffin learns the system/pro game.

[pjfootballer]

>implying anyone said the OL was just fine

All anyone's said is that it's not a disaster, and there's real potential for improvement and growth given last year's injuries and the poor play at QB. Should we invest more in it? Yes. But should we be panicking about it? No.

People tend to think that OLs are independent walls that simply stand there and block, but in reality they're just as interdependent as any other position group.

Two areas that everyone seems to be panicking about are the Oline and secondary. It's only March 20th. Get back to me when we're ready to start OTAs and we haven't signed/drafted Oline or secondary.

Too many people are still in Redskins 2000 mode and want us to scoop up any and every guy with a name. I LOVE how the FO is taking their time, weeding out the candidates and holding steady on their offers. That goes along way with changing the culture that Washington is a place to get paid and not a place to come to work. It weeds out the dunderheads.

Take your time Bruce and Mike. Take your time.

[jivelikenice]

Two areas that everyone seems to be panicking about are the Oline and secondary. It's only March 20th. Get back to me when we're ready to start OTAs and we haven't signed/drafted Oline or secondary.

Too many people are still in Redskins 2000 mode and want us to scoop up any and every guy with a name. I LOVE how the FO is taking their time, weeding out the candidates and holding steady on their offers. That goes along way with changing the culture that Washington is a place to get paid and not a place to come to work. It weeds out the dunderheads.

Take your time Bruce and Mike. Take your time.

Sorry but I disagree. We're not in Ph1 of free agency and the big contracts have gone for the most part. This is where you have to secure those solid 2nd and 3rd tier guys that make up the depth of a roster and we haven't done well in this pahse of free agency since Shanahan and Bruce have come along. The proof? The fact that we have started off the past two season relatively well only to drop off dramatically midseason when injuries kick in. The past 3 offseasons, there have been a lot of vets who come in here during this phase of FA for a visit and leave elsewhere for less than enormous contracts.

[pjfootballer]

Sorry but I disagree. We're not in Ph1 of free agency and the big contracts have gone for the most part. This is where you have to secure those solid 2nd and 3rd tier guys that make up the depth of a roster and we haven't done well in this pahse of free agency since Shanahan and Bruce have come along. The proof? The fact that we have started off the past two season relatively well only to drop off dramatically midseason when injuries kick in. The past 3 offseasons, there have been a lot of vets who come in here during this phase of FA for a visit and leave elsewhere for less than enormous contracts.

You cannot compare the last 2 free agent periods with this one. First year, under the CBA, the list of tier one free agents was nill. There were less than 10 "superstar" free agents due to the uncertainty of the CBA. Last year, with the lockout, free agency was a whirlwind of activity within a 2 week period to get the FAs in for training camp. This is the first year they've been able to sit down and analyze what is out there, before making a decision. This was also one of the largest, if not THE largest FA class in the history of the NFL. Throw in the 18 million penalty that further handicapped any plans (maybe Winston or Jackson) they may have had, I think they've done a good job. You're also asking them to overturn a roster that was in shables and had zero depth in less than 2 years. The fact that guys like Gomes, Hankerson, Austin, Davis, Smith, Hurt, etc. could actually step in and play decent (not great, but decent) is an attestment to how well they've done. We were not blown out in any game this year with the exception of the last game against the Eagles. I think getting off to a 3-1 start was inherently bad for the fans, because it raised expectations that simply shouldn't have been there, unlike fast starts in the past. We were never supposed to contend last year.

[36HAMMER]

my concern has been that the Coach would over value his olineman and it seems that he may have. Granted the of cap hi-jack by the nfl and goodell has really hurt what they could have gotten for oline help but haven't. i truely believe the major reason we have had such trouble scoring inside the redzone is the lack of size and strength of lich (lg) and montgomery. these guys are technitians, they block with brains and angles not strength or size.the days for 300 pound or less olineman are over.montgomery is shaped like a coke bottle, i really want a dominate center and one with an attitude.heres hopeing they find some in the draft.httr

[RedskinsInFebruary]

And yet I'm willing to bet our sack numbers improve dramatically with a QB that doesn't crumble if he can't find his checkdown (Beck) or has the speed of three legged yak (Grossman).

Once the passing game improves, our running game should also open up.

That would probably work out after the QB's rookie or first couple of seasons. This guy's extraordinary, but his rookie year in the NFL he needs a legit OL.

[Chump Bailey]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4958/demetrius-bell


The Redskins remain in talks with free agent OT Demetrius Bell.The best tackle left on the market, Bell's signing would likely signal the end of Jammal Brown's time in Washington. Bell would also provide insurance for LT Trent Williams, who was suspended for the final four games of 2011. Mar 20 - 9:22 PMSource: John Keim on Twitter

[MartinC]

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4958/demetrius-bell

I'd like to sign Bell but even if we do I think we will keep Brown at least through camp and preseason but he will be on the bubble and have to prove he is healthy and win the job - if he does not win the job or is still having problems with his mobility he will be a camp cut. Bell is also a guy with an injury history so even if we sign him we need depth.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

my concern has been that the Coach would over value his olineman and it seems that he may have. Granted the of cap hi-jack by the nfl and goodell has really hurt what they could have gotten for oline help but haven't. i truely believe the major reason we have had such trouble scoring inside the redzone is the lack of size and strength of lich (lg) and montgomery. these guys are technitians, they block with brains and angles not strength or size.the days for 300 pound or less olineman are over.montgomery is shaped like a coke bottle, i really want a dominate center and one with an attitude.heres hopeing they find some in the draft.httr

Montgomery is 310 pounds.

How many centers are there in the NFL that weigh more than 310 pounds?

Manigold is 303.
Myers is 292.
Maurkice Pouncey is 304.

Just to name a few examples. Montgomery is also pretty strong as well.

[Chump Bailey]

I'd like to sign Bell but even if we do I think we will keep Brown at least through camp and preseason but he will be on the bubble and have to prove he is healthy and win the job - if he does not win the job or is still having problems with his mobility he will be a camp cut. Bell is also a guy with an injury history so even if we sign him we need depth.

Well, we have Tyler Polumbus (MS draft) and Smith. Tyler played well inside and out last season. We have to think OT will be looked at strongly in the draft regardless of whether we keep Brown or not. I think we should try and trade him along with anyone else not in their longterm plans.

[pjfootballer]

I'd like to sign Bell but even if we do I think we will keep Brown at least through camp and preseason but he will be on the bubble and have to prove he is healthy and win the job - if he does not win the job or is still having problems with his mobility he will be a camp cut. Bell is also a guy with an injury history so even if we sign him we need depth.

He'd probably be a June 1st cap casualty.