Top 5 point guards in NBA history

[Sticksboi05]

Who do you believe to be the five greatest point guards in NBA history?

The discussion in the 1992 vs. 2012 thread has been great so I thought we could continue.

[Sticksboi05]

My list:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. John Stockton
5. This is tough, it really is. You could go with Cousy with all the titles, you could go with the two defensive stalwarts in Frazier and Payton, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd etc. This is really a toss-up. I'll have to think.

[earl]

won't speak on guys i didn't see play. so in my lifetime.
1. Magic
2. stockton
3. isiah thomas
4. the glove
5. kidd

honerable mention to my favorite Rod Strickland

[earl]

My list:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. John Stockton
5. This is tough, it really is. You could go with Cousy with all the titles, you could go with the two defensive stalwarts in Frazier and Payton, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd etc. This is really a toss-up. I'll have to think.

no logo? Jerry West?

[Kilmer17]

Is Jerry West considered more of a shooting guard in these discussions?

[Sticksboi05]

no logo? Jerry West?

I'd classify West as a SG wouldn't you?

[Predicto]

Magic
Oscar Robinson
John Stockton
Jason Kidd
Isaiah Thomas

IMHO

[MLSKINS]

honerable mention to my favorite Rod Strickland
I didn't realize just how good Strickland was. He is top 10 in all-time apg.

5.Pistol Pete (I don't care, this is my man and I will always put him in my top 5)
4.Paul (he never had that much around him and always plays at an elite level)
3. Zeke
2. The Big O
1. Magic (Just a beast. Never saw him play a game live, but watch too many old time games and I have never seen a player "control" a game.)

[Sticksboi05]

I would classify Maravich as a SG no?

[earl]

I didn't realize just how good Strickland was. He is top 10 in all-time apg.



if we are not considering Defense he'd be in my top 5 ahead of kid. i mean he couldn't shoot the 3. but he was money inside the arc. very efficient. great set up guy. and could even post people up.... and he rebounded well. He is my all time favorite Bullet.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Is Jerry West considered more of a shooting guard in these discussions?

He's a shooting guard in every discussion. Gail Goodrich played point.

---------- Post added July-16th-2012 at 03:34 PM ----------


I would classify Maravich as a SG no?

I would call him a "Gunner Guard."

[MLSKINS]

I would classify Maravich as a SG no?
I guess he would be considered a SG, but that is my man...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

1. Magic
2. Isiah
3. Oscar (begrudgingly)
4. Paul
5. Kidd

[Sticksboi05]

Rod Strickland over Gary Payton is extremely questionable.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I guess he would be considered a SG, but that is my man...

Out of curiosity...why?

Is there a Pistol Pete cult among twenty-somethings that I'm unaware of?

[earl]

i'd have him ahead of kidd not the glove

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Wall
Arenas
Strickland
Steve Blake
Pe Howard

(I couldn't even think of 5 Wizards to put on an imaginary list of good point guards).

[earl]

Wall
Arenas
Strickland
Steve Blake
Pe Howard

(I couldn't even think of 5 Wizards to put on an imaginary list of good point guards).

my second favorite bullet..... michael adams!

[Kosher Ham]

1. Magic
2. Nash
3. Oscar
4. Stockton
5. Strickland


Kidd at 6.
Zeke drops to 7.
Payton at 8.

After that it is clustered.

[MLSKINS]

Out of curiosity...why?

Is there a Pistol Pete cult among twenty-somethings that I'm unaware of?
:ols:

When I was younger (younger than I am now :silly: ) I saw this documentary on him. I liked the way he played basketball. It wasn't just because he he did the "cool" moves and whatnot, but it looked like he had fun while he played. Later on read this book called "Maravich" and found out he was a born again Christian. Made me like him even more.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I just didn't like Gary Payton that much.

He was sick defensively, but he was not really a natural point guard in the way that Kidd or Magic or Isiah or even Nash is. His instinct was to always get his shot first...and he was not much of a shooter.

Strickland (who is not top 5) was a much more natural point guard. Payton always seemed to be having a dialogue with himself on offense.

I think Tim Hardaway was better than both at the point.

[Sticksboi05]

I just didn't like Gary Payton that much.

He was sick defensively, but he was not really a natural point guard in the way that Kidd or Magic or Isiah or even Nash is. His instinct was to always get his shot first...and he was not much of a shooter.

Strickland (who is not top 5) was a much more natural point guard. Payton always seemed to be having a dialogue with himself on offense.

I think Tim Hardaway was better than both at the point.

How would you describe Derrick Rose? And yeah Payton was a scorer first. He had quite a few seasons over 20 ppg. He waso ne of my favorite players as a kid back in the days of the Sonics.

I liked Hardaway also.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

:ols:

When I was younger (younger than I am now :silly: ) I saw this documentary on him. I liked the way he played basketball. It wasn't just because he he did the "cool" moves and whatnot, but it looked like he had fun while he played. Later on read this book called "Maravich" and found out he was a born again Christian. Made me like him even more.

My dad really liked him. I was aware of him as a kid but certainly never saw him play live in his prime.

He could do amazing things. He was also a deeply weird dude and incredibly selfish player at times. There's a joke that he proved that anyone could average 40 a game in college if their dad was the coach.

---------- Post added July-16th-2012 at 03:55 PM ----------


How would you describe Derrick Rose? And yeah Payton was a scorer first. He had quite a few seasons over 20 ppg. He waso ne of my favorite players as a kid back in the days of the Sonics.

I think Rose is a scoring point guard. But it comes naturally to him.

Payton seemed to think a lot on offense.

"On this possession, I am going to pass."
"On this possesion, I am going to attack."

He was one of the few guys talented enough to actually get away with that.

---------- Post added July-16th-2012 at 03:57 PM ----------




Zeke drops to 7.


Whoa!

This needs explained to me.

(Is Isiah's stock dropping because of his post playing days? That's unfair. Everyone needs to realize that save for a twisted ankle, Isiah would have won three straight titles with Bill Laimbeer as his center).

[daveakl]

Did you know that Pistol Pete had an extra long ring finger that made passing the ball behind his back easier then most everyone else in history?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

my second favorite bullet..... michael adams!

Why aren't you posting in the Wizards thread more? A Strickland fam? Michael Adams? I NEED you in the Wizards thread

[Teller]

my second favorite bullet..... michael adams!

Who's first? Eackles or Champman? ;)

[No Excuses]

Wall
Arenas
Strickland
Steve Blake
Pe Howard

(I couldn't even think of 5 Wizards to put on an imaginary list of good point guards).

Tyronn Lue

[RonArtest15]

*Just listing the top-5 out of who I've seen in my life

1. Magic Johnson
2. Zeke
3. Stockton
4. Kidd
5. Payton

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wall
Arenas
Strickland
Steve Blake
Pe Howard

(I couldn't even think of 5 Wizards to put on an imaginary list of good point guards).

What, no Scott Skiles?

[ixcuincle]

Wall
Arenas
Strickland
Steve Blake
Pe Howard

(I couldn't even think of 5 Wizards to put on an imaginary list of good point guards).

http://i.imgur.com/5y8D5.gif

I approve

[Predicto]

(Is Isiah's stock dropping because of his post playing days? That's unfair. Everyone needs to realize that save for a twisted ankle, Isiah would have won three straight titles with Bill Laimbeer as his center).

To be fair, Laimbeer was an incredibly underrated defensive player. His help defense was second to none, and that whole team was all about help defense.

[MLSKINS]

My dad really liked him. I was aware of him as a kid but certainly never saw him play live in his prime.

He could do amazing things. He was also a deeply weird dude and incredibly selfish player at times. There's a joke that he proved that anyone could average 40 a game in college if their dad was the coach.

Yeah, I hear you, but I am willing to look pass all that because I know how he was later in life. I don't want to derail the thread, but I am kind of easing up on Lebron because he is starting to conduct himself better. But I probably won't like the dude...

[Sticksboi05]

So uhhh....anyone else have a list they wanna share?

[earl]

Why aren't you posting in the Wizards thread more? A Strickland fam? Michael Adams? I NEED you in the Wizards thread

i'm a Bullets lifer. i don't post too much in the off season cuz as much as i like to read you guys speculate draft picks and moves i may be a bit too optimistic for you guys to stomach my opinions.

---------- Post added July-16th-2012 at 08:06 PM ----------


Who's first? Eackles or Champman? ;)

nope rod is my first. i did like rex chapman too. but yeah i grew up watching never nervous and ladell, michael adams and even jeff malone. i've been watching this team my whole life and maybe thats why i'm not a frustrated w/ Ernie as most of the guys around here. i remember the wes unseld GM years!

[Skin'Em84]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Thomas
5. Kidd or Paul, I can't decide. It'll be easier to rate once Paul's career is over. If it was just offensive rankings, Nash would be here.

I also think Rondo could make this list if he ever learns to shoot, or Westbrook if he learns when not to shoot. We have a bevy of PGs in the NBA today.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

i'm a Bullets lifer. i don't post too much in the off season cuz as much as i like to read you guys speculate draft picks and moves i may be a bit too optimistic for you guys to stomach my opinions.

---------- Post added July-16th-2012 at 08:06 PM ----------



nope rod is my first. i did like rex chapman too. but yeah i grew up watching never nervous and ladell, michael adams and even jeff malone. i've been watching this team my whole life and maybe thats why i'm not a frustrated w/ Ernie as most of the guys around here. i remember the wes unseld GM years!

Same way with Ernie here. Me and you are at the just...perfect (for lack of a better word) age to really remember what bad truly is, ie the GM Wes Era.


And why is nobody mentioning the Price Brothers? Washed Up Mark and Never Was Brent

[artmonkforHOF]

Well 1&2 or 1&1A are easy, Magic and Oscar, after that it gets tough for me. Guys who are up there include the usual suspects mentioned above, Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Pistol Pete, Cousy, Isiah, Nate Archibald, Lenny Wilkins, Earl the Pearl and I'd even give guys like Tim Hardaway, Strickland (most underrated PG of all time IMO) and Gary Payton consideration.

Really tough this one but here is my list with a nod in the bottom 3 to some guys not being mentioned that much.

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Cousy
4. Pistol Pete
5. Archibald

Sucks to leave Stockton off, but he is getting love from everyone else. I think you could make a strong case for at least 6 to 7 guys for those last 3 spots.

Great forum topic, good job OP

[PeterMP]

The people that seem to not be getting attention to me are BIllups and Paul.

If you look at Win shares at the season level, Billups is behind several seasons of Oscar's, Magic's and Paul's.

Paul has two of the top seasons based on Win Shares for a guard. Behind season's of Jordan's and Oscar's.

But Billup's best season is just behind Stockton's best 15.5 vs. 15.6 and ahead of every other PGs.

A few other people sneak in there before his 2nd best season, including Penny, Peyton, and Archibald.

If you look at win shares/48 min over a whole career, Paul is 5th on the list out of ALL players and the top PG.

Of the guys that I know, the top 5 for PG look like Paul, Magic, Stockton, Oscar, and Billups (Sidney Moncrief is in there too, but I'm pretty sure he was a SG).

Billiups is #37 on the list.

Nash is the next guy on the list that I know is a PG, and he's down at 56.

Jason Kidd is at 149.

Now, if you look career totals Nash, Kidd, and Peyton all pass Billups.

But I'd be willing to take a guy that has had some REALLY REALLY good years and minutes and won two championships on a super starless team where he was really one of the key players and then went to another franchise and was in the conference finals over some guys that managed to compile stats for a really long time and over a lot of games.

Especially it isn't like Billups had a short career.

I think Kidd would have been better in another era. For most of his career, the game was very much slowed down and his complete lack of shooting over most of his career hurts him.

I LOVE Kidd's game, but because of when he played, I don't think he can be top 5 (and I think the win shares bare that out).

If you could take him and put his career in the late 1970's and early 1980's with less 3 point shooting and more of an up-tempo game, it would be a different story.

Kidd had the ball skills to be a top 5 point guard of all time, but he played most of his career in an era when ball skills weren't so important.

[Sticksboi05]

Pete was definitely a SG.

[Fight4RGIII]

Out of the ones I've seen in my lifetime

1) Stockton
2) Kidd
3) Nash
4) Payton
5) Paul

HIstorically from what I have seen from highlights and replays

1) Magic
2) Oscar
3) Zeke
4) Stockton
5) Kidd

The 5th was the hardest one to pick.

[stevemcqueen1]

I guess he would be considered a SG, but that is my man...

I've always thought of him as a PG. He was a ball handler.

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 08:51 AM ----------


I think Tim Hardaway was better than both at the point.

I always liked Tim Hardaway during his playing days. Since then, not so much...

I couldn't stand Gary Payton and his mouth. He was such a ****ing punk. Like a real life version of Sidney Deane. He managed to make Michael Jordan and Larry Bird look like Jimmy Chitwood. I don't see how Jordan never went off and broke his jaw at some point. The way he literally speaks, his accent, his syntax, his body language just make my skin crawl. He could be reading the phone book and it would sound like nails scratching a chalk board.

That said, I was afraid of him. He was a tough player. And I've since come to appreciate him more after he retired.

TNT's excellent basketball panel ran an open court segment about the biggest trashtalkers the guys had ever played with and I think almost everyone mentioned GP. Shaq had a funny story about him. He said GP wouldn't just trashtalk you on the court. You could see him later at the mall or something and he'd still be running his mouth, "Oh remember when I crossed you up? You broke you're arm trying to block my shot! blah blah blah." :ols:

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 08:56 AM ----------

Anyone else feel like Oscar Robertson is the Wilt Chamberlain of PGs?

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 08:57 AM ----------

And if Oscar's the Wilt, I could see Jason Kidd being the Moses Malone.

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 09:04 AM ----------

How about Lenny Wilkens?

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 09:07 AM ----------

My list of players from my lifetime that are no longer active:

1.) Magic
2.) Isiah
3.) Iverson
4.) Stockton
5.) GP

I loved me some Muggsy Bogues back in the day.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I've always thought of him as a PG. He was a ball handler.

In the sense that he dribbled the ball a lot and then shot it. Yes.

[stevemcqueen1]

Sticksboi, you should make one of these threads for 2 guards after this one peters out, then one for SFs after that, and so on.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I am shocked at the lack of respect that Isiah Thomas is getting in this thread. Inexcusable to not have him somewhere in the top 5.

[MLSKINS]

If Steve is putting Iverson in his top 5, I am definitely keeping Pistol Pete in mines. :silly:

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 09:23 AM ----------


I am shocked at the lack of respect that Isiah Thomas is getting in this thread. Inexcusable to not have him somewhere in the top 5.

To be fair GAC, most people have him at 3 or 2 in their list. KH had him at 7. :ols:

[Sticksboi05]

In the sense that he dribbled the ball a lot and then shot it. Yes.

Hahaha, exactly what I was thinking.

I mean 44 ppg in college and 24 ppg with a few assists sounds more like a SG to me. He could handle the ball though. I'd consider A.I. a two-guard (despite his size) who in reality was a shooting guard. Not a conventional SG but a SG, just in my opinion of course.

[MLSKINS]

I have never seen them list him as a 1 or 2, everybody just kept calling him a guard. The real reason I started calling him a PG is because that is the position the video games had him at. :D

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

If Steve is putting Iverson in his top 5, I am definitely keeping Pistol Pete in mines. :silly:

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 09:23 AM ----------



To be fair GAC, most people have him at 3 or 2 in their list. KH had him at 7. :ols:

It's early. I'm mixing up people's "seen in my lifetime" lists with their "all time" lists.

[MLSKINS]

It's early. I'm mixing up people's "seen in my lifetime" lists with their "all time" lists.

The thing I like about Isiah is how he is like the only PG to lead his team to the championship. And then did it back to back. I think people don't like him now because of his Knicks saga, the FIU job, and his "beef" with MJ. But I am willing to look pass all that BS because it seems like he was a baller to me.

[stevemcqueen1]

If Steve is putting Iverson in his top 5, I am definitely keeping Pistol Pete in mines. :silly:

I loved Iverson in spite of the fact I wanted to dislike him. It's Philly, Georgetown, all of the flashiness, I didn't like any of that growing up. But he was from Hampton, my family was from Newport News, I was kind of proud of that. And I thought he was the most exciting player to watch in that era.

I'm surprised no one else even mentioned him.

[Sticksboi05]

Sticksboi, you should make one of these threads for 2 guards after this one peters out, then one for SFs after that, and so on.

Centers will be the best I think!

[Dan T.]

Wall
Arenas
Strickland
Steve Blake
Pe Howard

(I couldn't even think of 5 Wizards to put on an imaginary list of good point guards).

Kevin Porter. He led the league in assists for the Bullets in 1975, feeding the ball to Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Phil Chenier and Truck Robinson, etc. They made it to the NBA Finals that year, losing to that ******* (rhymes with "glass pole") Rick Barry and the Golden State Warriors. Porter left the Bullets after that season, missing out on a championship with them (1978). He came back the year after they won it all and led the league in assists a couple more times.

[stevemcqueen1]

Here is how I would probably do a list of PGs from before my lifetime (cutoff at the mid 80's).

1.) Oscar Robertson
2.) Walt Frazier
3.) Earl Monroe
4.) Bob Cousy
5.) Tiny Archibald

Lot of good players that could make it. Dennis Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Bill Sharman. Dave Bing and Sidney Moncrieff probably make the list if you don't count them as 2s.

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 09:45 AM ----------


Centers will be the best I think!

I think of all the positions, you could see the most differences in those lists. Center has such a wide variety of play styles.

[RonArtest15]

I loved Iverson in spite of the fact I wanted to dislike him. It's Philly, Georgetown, all of the flashiness, I didn't like any of that growing up. But he was from Hampton, my family was from Newport News, I was kind of proud of that. And I thought he was the most exciting player to watch in that era.

I'm surprised no one else even mentioned him.


I think a lot of people (including myself) don't consider him to be a pure/classic "PG." He's a scoring guard who played the 1 (at times). His best seasons were when Eric Snow was at the 1.

IMO, he's a top 5 talent to EVER play in the NBA. Not saying he's one of the 5 greatest players ever...but talent-wise, what he accomplished at being sub-6 feet is nothing short of amazing. Think about it....when else do you think we'll see a 6 foot (or shorter) scoring guard taken #1 overall? It's like an anomaly. Also, think about this....how many guys were Iverson clones over the years and NEVER had NBA careers or were flashes in the pan? Marcus Hatten, Luis Flores, Keydren Clark, SirValiant Brown etc. This just goes to show the immense talent that Iverson had to play the game.

[PeterMP]

I loved Iverson in spite of the fact I wanted to dislike him. It's Philly, Georgetown, all of the flashiness, I didn't like any of that growing up. But he was from Hampton, my family was from Newport News, I was kind of proud of that. And I thought he was the most exciting player to watch in that era.

I'm surprised no one else even mentioned him.
Eric Snow was the PG on the teams that were best with him. Iverson was the 2 guard.

[stevemcqueen1]

RA and PeterMP, that's a good point about Eric Snow. But the way I really remember him is as a PG. I don't have any numbers, but I would guess he spent the majority of his career running point.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm surprised no one else even mentioned him.

Because he's not a point guard.

I draw a big distinction between "team's primary ball handler" and "point guard." By the logic you are using, I think you can make the case that Scottie Pippen was the point guard on six title-winning teams.

It's still bizarre to me that it's not 1. Magic and 2. Isiah on every list. I think you can argue 3 through 10, but 1 and 2 should not even be a debate in my view.

Oscar and Tiny to me are the most over-rated players.

Oscar was like Wilt in that he was a generation ahead of everyone physically and played in an era where teams shot the ball every 12 seconds. His teammates also seemed to hate him. It's hard for me to accept a point guard who teammates do not like. Opponents hated Isiah but his teammates bled for him.

Tiny put up insane numbers on bad teams during that watered-down era of the NBA where anyone with athleticism was in the ABA. I remember him on the Celtics with Bird, but at that point, he was, like, the fourth most important player on the team. I don't think Bird was enamored with him, and Bird adored Dennis Johnson.

DJ may be the most under-rated player in NBA history. How many guys go from being a scoring guard on an NBA champion to a point guard/defensive specialist on another NBA champion all within their prime? He was one of maybe three guys in the NBA who could guard Magic in his prime. He never missed that 17 foot jumper. And he threw the best lead pass I've ever seen. Bird called him his best teammate ever. (Keep in mind that Bird played with McHale, Parish, Walton, Tiny, Maravich, Wedman, Gilmore, Buckner, Maxwell, and Ainge).

[stevemcqueen1]

IMO, he's a top 5 talent to EVER play in the NBA. Not saying he's one of the 5 greatest players ever...but talent-wise, what he accomplished at being sub-6 feet is nothing short of amazing. Think about it....when else do you think we'll see a 6 foot (or shorter) scoring guard taken #1 overall? It's like an anomaly. Also, think about this....how many guys were Iverson clones over the years and NEVER had NBA careers or were flashes in the pan? Marcus Hatten, Luis Flores, Keydren Clark, SirValiant Brown etc. This just goes to show the immense talent that Iverson had to play the game.

Hm. I could see that. He's got to be one of the fastest players to ever play the game.

Other players on that list?

Maybe Wilt, Jordan, LeBron, CWebb, Shaq, Dr. J, Kemp? I'm probably missing older guys. Hakeem and David Robinson should probably be on there too. I'd probably say LJ too although he really fell off a cliff once his athleticism was gone.

[TheDane]

Magic
Isaiah
Stockton
Glove
Paul

6-10 are probably some mix of Tony Parker, KJ, DJ, Timmy Hardaway, Steve Nash, and Jason Kidd. Good argument for Chauncey Billups but he's probably in my top 15.

Hard for me to opine on Oscar, Cousy, Archibald, and Walt because I never saw them play. Very possible they'd be in the Top 5 if I had.

[stevemcqueen1]

Because he's not a point guard.

I draw a big distinction between "team's primary ball handler" and "point guard." By the logic you are using, I think you can make the case that Scottie Pippen was the point guard on six title-winning teams.

I wouldn't go that far. Pippen always had guys like MJ and BJ Armstrong carry the ball a lot too and run a lot of plays for the Bulls. Pippen was a point forward if anything, kind of like LeBron. LeBron runs point a ton for the Heat, but not so much more than Chalmers and Wade and Cole that I'd consider him a Magic style oversized PG.

PG style of play varies so it's hard for me to pin the position down to just that John Stockton like passer and ball handler. For me the guy who starts most of your sets with the ball in his hand is your PG (although it can change rotation to rotation of course) as well as the guy who guards the other team's PG. Iverson played a lot of PG and a lot of off guard, but I'd guess he played more of his minutes at PG. Again, I have no numbers to back this up, it's just my estimation.

[RonArtest15]

Hm. I could see that. He's got to be one of the fastest players to ever play the game.

Other players on that list?

Maybe Wilt, Jordan, LeBron, CWebb, Shaq, Dr. J, Kemp? I'm probably missing older guys. Hakeem and David Robinson should probably be on there too. I'd probably say LJ too although he really fell off a cliff once his athleticism was gone.

From guys I've seen, I can think of 5

Barkley, Shaq, Iverson, Magic Johnson, and Lebron.

This is just as far as being on a different level than their peers and being some what of an athletic anomaly due to their size and what they can do with their skill.

And don't laugh....I seriously thought about putting Lamar Odom in there. He's a waste of talent, IMO. Could have been SO much better.

[Sticksboi05]

I wouldn't go that far. Pippen always had guys like MJ and BJ Armstrong carry the ball a lot too and run a lot of plays for the Bulls. Pippen was a point forward if anything, kind of like LeBron. LeBron runs point a ton for the Heat, but not so much more than Chalmers and Wade and Cole that I'd consider him a Magic style oversized PG.

PG style of play varies so it's hard for me to pin the position down to just that John Stockton like passer and ball handler. For me the guy who starts most of your sets with the ball in his hand is your PG (although it can change rotation to rotation of course) as well as the guy who guards the other team's PG. Iverson played a lot of PG and a lot of off guard, but I'd guess he played more of his minutes at PG. Again, I have no numbers to back this up, it's just my estimation.

He may've been deemed PG on the lineup but a guy who takes 30 shots a game is a shooting guard. The best 6'1 scoring guard in history.

[earl]

my 6-10.
6. rod strickland
7.Tim hardaway
8. mark price
9. KJ
10. blaylock

i don't have any current players in my top 10 cuz in my mind none of them are eligible until after thier career is over. and i was on the fense between blaylock and mark jackson.

[stevemcqueen1]

And don't laugh....I seriously thought about putting Lamar Odom in there. He's a waste of talent, IMO. Could have been SO much better.

Despite what he achieved, I feel the same way about CWebb. This guy was so amazing. IQ, athleticism, skill, he had it all. I always thought he would be better. I thought he could have been the best PF ever.

I've said it before, but I feel like there was something of a lost generation in the NBA from the draft classes of about '91 to 2001. Lots of top guys started out brilliantly but faded quickly and the quality of basketball really started to suck as a result around the turn of the century.

[RonArtest15]

Despite what he achieved, I feel the same way about CWebb. This guy was so amazing. IQ, athleticism, skill, he had it all. I always thought he would be better. I thought he could have been the best PF ever.

I've said it before, but I feel like there was something of a lost generation in the NBA from the draft classes of about '91 to 2001. Lots of top guys started out brilliantly but faded quickly and the quality of basketball really started to suck as a result around the turn of the century.

That's a good call on Webber. One of the best passing big-men in NBA history.

Two other guys who I think were wastes of talent:

Derrick Coleman
Rasheed Wallace

[Kosher Ham]

Sticksboi, you should make one of these threads for 2 guards after this one peters out, then one for SFs after that, and so on.

Psst...That was this thread initially. He changed the title because it was dying.

[stevemcqueen1]

That's a good call on Webber. One of the best passing big-men in NBA history.

Two other guys who I think were wastes of talent:

Derrick Coleman
Rasheed Wallace

Oh man, I remember Derrick Coleman. Wow, yeah, he used to be a beast. He was pretty big time when he came into the league. I wonder what happened there.

Sheed just had an attitude problem and I think it held him back big time. CWebb talked about him on TNT how he came into the league and before he checked into his first game, the coaches and the whole team told him to be a pro and keep it cool. CWebb said Sheed was like, "certainly." Within five minutes he had been thrown out for cussing out the ref.

CWebb said Sheed used to get thrown out of scrimmages as a rookie.

[pjfootballer]

In no particular order:

Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Steve Nash

I like my point guards to get assists before they score. Robertson averaged a triple double for the WHOLE season.

[Sticksboi05]

I don't think Nash cracks the top 5. He cannot play D.

[pjfootballer]

It's my opinion, so.....

Anyway, like I said in my post, my PGs have to run the show and get alot of assists.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In no particular order:

Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Steve Nash

I like my point guards to get assists before they score. Robertson averaged a triple double for the WHOLE season.

Again, you have to look at the era and style of play then.

I agree with stevemcqueen. Oscar is the Wilt of Point Guards. Insane numbers but they really don't tell the story.

I think you have to put Oscar in the Top Five just because.....but I'm not sure I would ever actually want him on my team.

The NBA is littered with players like that.

Someone should start a thread: Five greatest NBA players you would never draft.

1. Wilt
2. Oscar
3. Maravich
4. Weber
5. Dominique

[MLSKINS]

Again, you have to look at the era and style of play then.

I agree with stevemcqueen. Oscar is the Wilt of Point Guards. Insane numbers but they really don't tell the story.

I think you have to put Oscar in the Top Five just because.....but I'm not sure I would ever actually want him on my team.

The NBA is littered with players like that.

Someone should start a thread: Five greatest NBA players you would never draft.

1. Wilt
2. Oscar
3. Maravich
4. Weber
5. Dominique

Man LKB, you might want to change that to Top 5 you wouldn't draft #1. I would draft all five of those players and have a beast starting 5. :ols:

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Man LKB, you might want to change that to Top 5 you wouldn't draft #1. I would draft all five of those players and have a beast starting 5. :ols:

No...I honestly wouldn't want any of them on a team I was running, (with the possible exception of Wilt).

[MLSKINS]

No...I honestly wouldn't want any of them on a team I was running, (with the possible exception of Wilt).
That is absurd..

[Sticksboi05]

It's my opinion, so.....

Anyway, like I said in my post, my PGs have to run the show and get alot of assists.

I believe I am aware that it is your opinion.

Kidd >> Nash. Led the league in assists for several seasons but could actually play defense and rebound. Nash's two MVP's don't mean much to me.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

That is absurd.

Outside of dunk contests, the highlight of Dominique Wilkins' career is a conference semi-finals game that he lost.

There are a certain group of players that I just don't think you can truly win with. All the guys I named were obsessed with numbers for numbers sake.

I don't think Nique cared about making the playoffs. I think he cared about winning the scoring title. I honestly think he had two goals every year:

1. Win the scoring title
2. Win the dunk contest

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 02:37 PM ----------

Ohhhh....I forget the guy who should be #1. Weber is off the list.

#1 is George Gervin. Oh, lord, would he have been awful to play with......

Ohhhhh! Here is another one. The legendary World B. Free. World scored 30 points per game in a post merger year while only making 8 three pointers. His team won 35 games.

Okay. Wilt is off the list.

[MLSKINS]

:ols:

We must be talking about to different things. You telling me that you won't want those players on your team at all?

[stevemcqueen1]

I believe I am aware that it is your opinion.

Kidd >> Nash. Led the league in assists for several seasons but could actually play defense and rebound. Nash's two MVP's don't mean much to me.

They should.

The NBA MVP isn't like the baseball or football MVP where crap, flavor of the month players have won it at an alarming rate. Look at the list of NBA MVP winners and it's a run down of the HoF pretty much. I think every single winner was either a HoFer or will be once he's eligible.

All of the multiple winners were absolute studs. It's extremely special to win an NBA MVP.

I like Jason Kidd, but man, I'd really have a hard time taking him over Nash in each of their primes. Nash is one of the toughest players I've ever watched. He'd stick his nose in there on D and wasn't a liability in the half court. Offensively, his gifts pass Kidd's by quite a bit IMO.

If they keep that Joe Johnson, Amar'e, Marion core together long enough in Phoenix, I think he gets a ring. Sarver has proven a pretty ****ty owner over the years. I think he burned some of Phoenix's ability to truly compete in order to save cash and that hurt Nash.

Or if Nash had stayed in Dallas, I think he and Dirk eventually win a couple rings.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

:ols:

We must be talking about to different things. You telling me that you won't want those players on your team at all?

Not at all.

I was looking up World B. Free's numbers and found the roster of the '79-'80 San Diego Clippers.

Why is there not a book on this team? Look at this roster:

Bill Walton who played 14 games. This is the middle of his lost years.
World B. Free....who scored 30 a night and changed his name to World B. Free.
Marvin 'Bad News' Barnes....serious drug addict. The player who was afraid that a plane was a time machine in the ABA documentary.
Jellybean Bryant - Kobe's dad.
Freeman Williams - #2 all time college scorer and co-star of White Men Can't Jump
Sidney Wicks who is one of the all time great NBA gunners and maybe only the fourth worst gunner on this team.
Bingo Smith...I have no idea who this is but his name was Bingo
Swen Nater who was Dutch. I want to know who on this team he ever had a conversation with.

[stevemcqueen1]

Also, part of the reason the NBA MVP is a more accurate reflection of the game's greats than the other sports is because there is enough 1 on 1 play in basketball to see who the studs are.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I'm now making up Johnny Most play by play calls.

World passes to Jelly Bean who swings it over to Bingo. Bingo to the big Dutchmen back out to Bad News. Over to World for the 28 footer.

[Predicto]

I like Nash a lot, but Kidd was a much, much better player than Nash. To me it isn't even close. Nash may have "stuck his nose in" on defense but he really wasn't very good. Kidd was one of the best defensive guards in the league, a tremendous rebounder for his position, an extremely reliable ballhander who didn't turn the ball over, and (of course) an excellent passer. Ten time all star (twice as many as Nash even though Nash is more popular among casual fans). Nine times all NBA defensive team. Kidd led the league in assists for as many years as Nash did. He is number 2 in steals all time, number two in assists, third in triple doubles. Every team he went to improved dramatically.

Hell, more I think about it, I might move Kidd up to Number 2 on my list behind Magic.

[Sticksboi05]

Here are the PER (player efficiency ratings) ratings for various PG's as of May 2006:

24.1 - Magic Johnson
23.2 - Oscar Robertson
18.1 - Isiah Thomas
21.8 - John Stockton
19.8 - Bob Cousy
19.1 - Walt Frazier
18.9 - Jason Kidd
18.0 - Tiny Archibald
19.9 - Steve Nash
18.9 - Gary Payton

[Predicto]

Here are the PER (player efficiency ratings) ratings for various PG's as of May 2006:

24.1 - Magic Johnson
23.2 - Oscar Robertson
18.1 - Isiah Thomas
21.8 - John Stockton
19.8 - Bob Cousy
19.1 - Walt Frazier
18.9 - Jason Kidd
18.0 - Tiny Archibald
19.9 - Steve Nash
18.9 - Gary Payton

PER is basically an offensive statistical compliation. The only defensive stat it has for guards is steals, and you can be a lousy fundamental defender and get a lot of steals. It can't take into effect how superior Kidd and Payton were on the defensive side of the ball.

[pjfootballer]

I believe I am aware that it is your opinion.

Kidd >> Nash. Led the league in assists for several seasons but could actually play defense and rebound. Nash's two MVP's don't mean much to me.

Point guards shouldn't be rebounders. Their primary job (at least it was in before this current crop of scoring PGs) is to run the offense and dish out some dimes. If a guy is a good defender, that's a bonus. But if he's defending another PG who isn't a scorer, why does he need to be an all world defender?

I guess this is why I hate the NBA today. I can remember people older than me complaining about the 80s NBA and "they don't play defense", blah, blah, blah. What is the object of basketball? Put the ball in the hoop. Score. Why do you think the NHL did away with clutching and grabbing after the boring 90s? Their stars weren't scoring. People don't want to come watch a soccer match. Why do I want to watch defense? Do you pay a ticket to watch Dennis Rodman shut down his man or do you come to watch Jordan score? Quite frankly, I hate that with all of this supposed "athletic ability" this current crop of "unfundamentally sound" players can't put up 100 points a game.

If you go to an NBA game, what's more exciting, 80-72 game or 122-113? What's with all this love for defense? Did any of you guys truly enjoy our (Redskins) 3-0 win over the Jets about 15 years ago? For the love of god, I'd rather see scoring than defense. That's what made the game better in the 80s. Players had more basketball skills rather then relying on their athletecism. That's why more than half the guys in the league can't shoot and you get 85-75 games. I'd rather watch ice melt.

I kind of feel for the younger generation that has never seen good shooting.

[PeterMP]

I like Nash a lot, but Kidd was a much, much better player than Nash. To me it isn't even close. Nash may have "stuck his nose in" on defense but he really wasn't very good. Kidd was one of the best defensive guards in the league, a tremendous rebounder for his position, an extremely reliable ballhander who didn't turn the ball over, and (of course) an excellent passer. Ten time all star (twice as many as Nash even though Nash is more popular among casual fans). Nine times all NBA defensive team. Kidd led the league in assists for as many years as Nash did. He is number 2 in steals all time, number two in assists, third in triple doubles. Every team he went to improved dramatically.

Hell, more I think about it, I might move Kidd up to Number 2 on my list behind Magic.
There are defensive statistics that look at things beyond turnovers. People look at the number of points the opposition scores when you on the floor corrected for the number of possessions.

Now, this is somewhat flawed because obviously your teammates can affect that number. But over a long career such things tend to even out.

Now, using such numbers Kidd is a vastly better defensive player than Nash.

However, when combined with the offensive difference to determine something like Win Shares, Nash is easily the better player.

Kidd only shot above 83% from the FT line once in his career.

Nash frequently shot over 90%.

Those types of things are huge differences because they turn into points directly.

[Sticksboi05]

PER is basically an offensive statistical compliation. The only defensive stat it has for guards is steals, and you can be a lousy fundamental defender and get a lot of steals. It can't take into effect how superior Kidd and Payton were on the defensive side of the ball.

I know what PER is. Just food for thought. I'm not using it to prove any point.

[Sticksboi05]

Point guards shouldn't be rebounders. Their primary job (at least it was in before this current crop of scoring PGs) is to run the offense and dish out some dimes. If a guy is a good defender, that's a bonus. But if he's defending another PG who isn't a scorer, why does he need to be an all world defender?

I guess this is why I hate the NBA today. I can remember people older than me complaining about the 80s NBA and "they don't play defense", blah, blah, blah. What is the object of basketball? Put the ball in the hoop. Score. Why do you think the NHL did away with clutching and grabbing after the boring 90s? Their stars weren't scoring. People don't want to come watch a soccer match. Why do I want to watch defense? Do you pay a ticket to watch Dennis Rodman shut down his man or do you come to watch Jordan score? Quite frankly, I hate that with all of this supposed "athletic ability" this current crop of "unfundamentally sound" players can't put up 100 points a game.

If you go to an NBA game, what's more exciting, 80-72 game or 122-113? What's with all this love for defense? Did any of you guys truly enjoy our (Redskins) 3-0 win over the Jets about 15 years ago? For the love of god, I'd rather see scoring than defense. That's what made the game better in the 80s. Players had more basketball skills rather then relying on their athletecism. That's why more than half the guys in the league can't shoot and you get 85-75 games. I'd rather watch ice melt.

I kind of feel for the younger generation that has never seen good shooting.

So because you think defense is boring (when it actually wins championships), we should ignore Nash's game being one-sided in this discussion? I've seen Reggie Miller, Steve Kerr and Ray Allen in my lifetime. I'm all set for good shooting. What I do wish is for less off the dribble and more executed passing plays in today's NBA. If only the 2004 Pistons and the Spurs in general could be cloned.

I don't see how watching The Glove lock down elite players isn't fun to watch. Watching MJ in the 80s when he could block big men must've been fun no?

And Kidd, as of May 2006 was 4th all-time in assists per game so he facilitated the offense. He's just a much more well-rounded player IMO.

[pjfootballer]

So because you think defense is boring (when it actually wins championships), we should ignore Nash's game being one-sided in this discussion? I've seen Reggie Miller, Steve Kerr and Ray Allen in my lifetime. I'm all set for good shooting. What I do wish is for less off the dribble and more executed passing plays in today's NBA. If only the 2004 Pistons and the Spurs in general could be cloned.

I don't see how watching The Glove lock down elite players isn't fun to watch. Watching MJ in the 80s when he could block big men must've been fun no?

And Kidd, as of May 2006 was 4th all-time in assists per game so he facilitated the offense. He's just a much more well-rounded player IMO.

That is such a falacy that defense wins championships in sports. I varies from decade to decarde depending on the rules. Maybe since 2004 defense wins in the NBA, but go back and watch teams from the 80s and early 90s. It was all about the offense. Did Dennis Rodman, Alvin Robertson or Jason Kidd ever win finals MVP for their defense? No, I don't care to watch Gary Payton lock down another PG. I want to watch them score, pass and dish the ball. The name of the game is to put the ball in the net.

Listen, you are a big hockey guy. Would you rather watch the Devils and Dallas Stars of the 90s, clutch and grab their way to a cup or watch Coffey tic tac toe a pass to Kurri and then Gretzky? That's why they changed the rules and started calling more penalties in the NHL. Hockey was getting boring. That's why they eliminated coming off the bench fighting and game delays on faceoffs. They want to feature their star players scoring. Gretzkys era was sort of an anomoly, because goaltending hadn't caught up with the shooters. Hardly any goalie in the 80s were using the butterfly to combat the shooters. They were all about he kick save. When goalies starting incorporating the butterfly, it shut guys down. America loves scoring, not defense.

[Sticksboi05]

That is such a falacy that defense wins championships in sports. I varies from decade to decarde depending on the rules. Maybe since 2004 defense wins in the NBA, but go back and watch teams from the 80s and early 90s. It was all about the offense. Did Dennis Rodman, Alvin Robertson or Jason Kidd ever win finals MVP for their defense? No, I don't care to watch Gary Payton lock down another PG. I want to watch them score, pass and dish the ball. The name of the game is to put the ball in the net.

Listen, you are a big hockey guy. Would you rather watch the Devils and Dallas Stars of the 90s, clutch and grab their way to a cup or watch Coffey tic tac toe a pass to Kurri and then Gretzky? That's why they changed the rules and started calling more penalties in the NHL. Hockey was getting boring. That's why they eliminated coming off the bench fighting and game delays on faceoffs. They want to feature their star players scoring. Gretzkys era was sort of an anomoly, because goaltending hadn't caught up with the shooters. Hardly any goalie in the 80s were using the butterfly to combat the shooters. They were all about he kick save. When goalies starting incorporating the butterfly, it shut guys down. America loves scoring, not defense.

This is a discussion about who is a better player, not who is more fun to watch though. Kidd is a better basketball player than Nash. That's all I'm saying. And defense plays a key role in winning titles. The Bulls perimeter D allowed them to overcome the absence of a 20/10 big man. You're arguing a completely different point it seems. Nash may be more fun to watch but I'd rather build my team around Kidd. Kidd has won a ring and been to the Finals what, three times, Nash 0. Part of that is team play but still.

[MLSKINS]

Honestly, I don't like to watch defense when I am watching a basketball game. I mean I do enjoy it, but I rather see some good offense.

However, no matter which sport I am playing, I love to be on defense. Aint nothing better than stopping somebody from doing something that they want to do. Putting on the straps, clamps, lock down, that is me. :D

[pjfootballer]

This is a discussion about who is a better player, not who is more fun to watch though. Kidd is a better basketball player than Nash. That's all I'm saying. And defense plays a key role in winning titles. The Bulls perimeter D allowed them to overcome the absence of a 20/10 big man. You're arguing a completely different point it seems. Nash may be more fun to watch but I'd rather build my team around Kidd. Kidd has won a ring and been to the Finals what, three times, Nash 0. Part of that is team play but still.

And all I'm saying is "I" think Nash is a better player because I prefer offense, while "you" like Kidd because you prefer his defense.

[Sticksboi05]

And all I'm saying is "I" think Nash is a better player because I prefer offense, while "you" like Kidd because you prefer his defense.

I don't prefer defense, I prefer offense. I just think if the offense is roughly the same, the tiebreaker is what you do on the other end. I'm not attacking your opinion, I'm giving you mine in response as food for thought just as you did when you responded.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Nash is already the most over-honored player in NBA history. Let's not push this any further.

[stevemcqueen1]

Honestly, I don't like to watch defense when I am watching a basketball game. I mean I do enjoy it, but I rather see some good offense.

However, no matter which sport I am playing, I love to be on defense. Aint nothing better than stopping somebody from doing something that they want to do. Putting on the straps, clamps, lock down, that is me. :D

You're like Clark Kellogg. He doesn't care about defense either. Though he does certainly appreciate it.

I'm with you, defense is a ton of fun to play. And when you properly appreciate it and can understand what's going on, it's a ton of fun to watch.

To me, saying "I hate watching defense" is pretty much equivalent to saying, "I am a casual fan."

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 12:53 PM ----------

There are two basic ways to effect the scoreboard in basketball. Scoring and stopping your man from doing so.

To me, Steve Nash could have more of an effect on the scoreboard with his offense and defense than Kidd could. Nash is a dramatically better offensive player. Nash is a night and day better shooter than Kidd, a better ball handler and shot creator, better passer, better penatrator, so on and so forth.

Also Kidd certainly didn't get his ring at the point in his career when he was a good defensive player. He's actually been pretty maligned for his defense the past few seasons. He's old. He can't stay in front of he ball like he used to. He got his ring as a role player. Nash could very well match that accomplishment this year.

[MLSKINS]

I wouldn't say that I hate defense. I just think that the only thing on defense that gets me to say OOOOOH! is a ferocious blocked shot. I enjoy a nice pluck and a well contested shot too. On offense, I will say OOOOOH! for a dunk, a nice pass, an oop, a good shot, crossover, etc.

[Sticksboi05]

You're like Clark Kellogg. He doesn't care about defense either. Though he does certainly appreciate it.

I'm with you, defense is a ton of fun to play. And when you properly appreciate it and can understand what's going on, it's a ton of fun to watch.

To me, saying "I hate watching defense" is pretty much equivalent to saying, "I am a casual fan."

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 12:53 PM ----------

There are two basic ways to effect the scoreboard in basketball. Scoring and stopping your man from doing so.

To me, Steve Nash could have more of an effect on the scoreboard with his offense and defense than Kidd could. Nash is a dramatically better offensive player. Nash is a night and day better shooter than Kidd, a better ball handler and shot creator, better passer, better penatrator, so on and so forth.

Also Kidd certainly didn't get his ring at the point in his career when he was a good defensive player. He's actually been pretty maligned for his defense the past few seasons. He's old. He can't stay in front of he ball like he used to. He got his ring as a role player. Nash could very well match that accomplishment this year.

Would you take a prime Jason Kidd over a prime Steve Nash? Or do you think he is a better complete player I should say? And yes, he won his ring as a role player but he took two New Jersey teams to Finals which is more than Nash has ever done.

[Predicto]

To me, Steve Nash could have more of an effect on the scoreboard with his offense and defense than Kidd could. Nash is a dramatically better offensive player. Nash is a night and day better shooter than Kidd, a better ball handler and shot creator, better passer, better penatrator, so on and so forth.


Except none of those things is true, except for shooter. Jason Kidd of 2012 is not the player he was in his prime, but in his prime he was every bit the ball handler, schot creator passer and penetrator that Nash was. Just as quick, just as savvy. He led the league in assists 5 times.

[Sticksboi05]

Except none of those things is true, except for shooter. Jason Kidd of 2012 is not the player he was in his prime, but in his prime he was every bit the ball handler, schot creator passer and penetrator that Nash was. Just as quick, just as savvy. He led the league in assists 5 times.

And his career assists per game is higher. Nash thrived once he returned to Phoenix under D'Antoni who makes every PG go from good/very good to great. A great player in his own right, not arguing, just not as good ash is 2 MVP's suggest.

[stevemcqueen1]

Would you take a prime Jason Kidd over a prime Steve Nash? Or do you think he is a better complete player I should say? And yes, he won his ring as a role player but he took two New Jersey teams to Finals which is more than Nash has ever done.

Kidd is a more complete all around player sure, he's a better defender and rebounder. Nash is the far more complete offensive player though.

Who would I take in their prime? Tough to say. If I'm starting from scratch, I'll take Kidd probably. But if I've got a really good forward or big man already? Give me Nash. I can do all kinds of things with Nash. If I'm having defensive problems I'll go out and find a perimeter stopper like Tony Allen or Thabo Sefalosha to play SG. The shooting and playmaking combined with dominant play from someone in the front court give me so much punch.

The thing about Nash though, his prime years came after 30. His career has been an odd one because he aged like wine.

Re: NJ making the Finals with Kidd, I think you know my response already. The Eastern Conference sucked. Those NJ teams had some defenders and were scrappy, but they wouldn't have sniffed a WCFs appearance, much less the Finals if they were in the West. They got obliterated by the Lakers and the Spurs. And conversely, Nash's Suns or Mavericks would have probably been the favorite in the East instead of the third or fourth seed every at best in the WC.

Consider, in 2002 the Nets were the #1 seed in the EC with 52 wins. Detroit was the only other team to break 50, with 50. 52 wins would have made NJ the 5th seed in the WC, and that's without factoring in NJ having to play a western schedule which undoubtedly drops that win total even more. They got swept by the Lakers in the finals. In 2003, NJ was the second seed in the EC with 49 wins. Only one Eastern team won 50 games that year: Detroit. With 50. That's pathetic. NJ's record would have been good for the 7th seed in the WC that year. They lost to San Antonio in 6, their two wins coming by a total margin of three points.

Suffice to say, I don't really put much stock in Jason Kidd's ability to lead a team further than Nash based on those two finals appearances. The East blew. It was weaker relative to the West than it has ever been in the history of the league.

[Sticksboi05]

Kidd is a more complete all around player sure, he's a better defender and rebounder. Nash is the far more complete offensive player though.

Who would I take in their prime? Tough to say. If I'm starting from scratch, I'll take Kidd probably. But if I've got a really good forward or big man already? Give me Nash. I can do all kinds of things with Nash. If I'm having defensive problems I'll go out and find a perimeter stopper like Tony Allen or Thabo Sefalosha to play SG. The shooting and playmaking combined with dominant play from someone in the front court give me so much punch.

The thing about Nash though, his prime years came after 30. His career has been an odd one because he aged like wine.

Re: NJ making the Finals with Kidd, I think you know my response already. The Eastern Conference sucked. Those NJ teams had some defenders and were scrappy, but they wouldn't have sniffed a WCFs appearance, much less the Finals if they were in the West. They got obliterated by the Lakers and the Spurs. And conversely, Nash's Suns or Mavericks would have probably been the favorite in the East instead of the third or fourth seed every at best in the WC.

Consider, in 2002 the Nets were the #1 seed in the EC with 52 wins. Detroit was the only other team to break 50, with 50. 52 wins would have made NJ the 5th seed in the WC, and that's without factoring in NJ having to play a western schedule which undoubtedly drops that win total even more. They got swept by the Lakers in the finals. In 2003, NJ was the second seed in the EC with 49 wins. Only one Eastern team won 50 games that year: Detroit. With 50. That's pathetic. NJ's record would have been good for the 7th seed in the WC that year. They lost to San Antonio in 6, their two wins coming by a total margin of three points.

Suffice to say, I don't really put much stock in Jason Kidd's ability to lead a team further than Nash based on those two finals appearances. The East blew. It was weaker relative to the West than it has ever been in the history of the league.

Oh it absolutely sucked. Which is a point I bring up when arguing about the ease of Kobe's titles nobody wants to hear.

[stevemcqueen1]

Except none of those things is true, except for shooter. Jason Kidd of 2012 is not the player he was in his prime, but in his prime he was every bit the ball handler, schot creator passer and penetrator that Nash was. Just as quick, just as savvy. He led the league in assists 5 times.

Kidd is nowhere near as good a ball handler as Nash. Nash is still one of the best ball handlers in the league. Nash is a better passer too, it's not an assists based argument. It's just based on watching them both. The only other guy in his class, to this day, is Rondo. He's a better shot creator because he has a far broader array of moves. Nash is on a different level with his hesitation moves, triple threats, shot fakes, step backs and pull ups, etc. I don't know that any other PG in the league even comes close to him here. He also knocks everything down. Nash is the best shooter off the dribble in the league and he's had no serious rival here in years.

I don't think people realize how utterly insane it is that Nash always shoots about .450 or better on his jumpers despite the fact he's only assisted on about 12 to 16 % of them. Most players shooting in that range get assisted on 80+% of their jumpers. The other PGs shooting around Nash's level like Luke Ridnour, Carlos Arroyo, and Steph Curry are still getting assisted only 30+% of their shots. The only other PG who has shot for similar percentages on similar assist rates was CP3 in 2009/2010. But that was only one season, and Nash does it every single year.

Still don't believe me about Nash being the better shot creator? At 38, he's still arguably the best shot creator in the league. At any rate, he's indisputably the most efficient shot creator in the league and nobody else came close last season.

In his prime, Kidd was a good penetrator because he was strong and he was fast. But Nash is a better penetrator and he's not strong nor plays explosively fast (although he's hard to keep up with). He's just savvier and more skilled. He has better floor vision and better handles. The only guys as good as Nash at getting into the paint while keeping their dribble and seeing the entire floor are Rondo and Paul.

At his best, Kidd basically wasn't as good as Nash at any part of offense as when Nash was 35.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 03:34 PM ----------


Oh it absolutely sucked. Which is a point I bring up when arguing about the ease of Kobe's titles nobody wants to hear.

Yeah, but Kobe still had to go through the WC to get there. If his titles are diluted, than so are Duncan's. Sacramento, Dallas, San Antonio, and Phoenix have all been really good during the decade.

If Kobe's first threepeat is diluted, it's because he was the second banana to Shaq more than anything else. I can't take anything away from the final two. He became a truly great all around player for them.

[Sticksboi05]

The Magic were nothing special but yes, beating the 2009 Celtics was a feat. The Celtics lost when Perkins was hurt and Gasol then literally had nobody to bother him under the rim. Despite all that, the Celtics choked away a big 2nd half lead. Kobe was great all series. Artest hit the dagger though. That 3 was ice cold.

I would say the 2005 Pistons were better than 4 of the teams Kobe played in the Finals. The WC was great though. That was the toughest part no doubt. Kings and Blazers were actually good then. And of course the refs helped, alot....in the 2002 WCF.

But the 2001 76ers and 2002 Nets. Lol, epitome of being there because someone has to.

[rumpshakers]

Magic, Kevin Johnson, Walt Frazier, Oscar Robertson, John Stockton

[Predicto]

I give Nash full credit for his shooting ability. I don't think his passing was better than Kidd's, but it was a bit flashier. Heck, the whole NBA is flashier now.

We are all prejudiced by what we personally have seen and have been impressed by. I too have seen both Kidd and Nash play many times. Kidd impressed me more because he was almost as good as Nash offensively, but so much better on defense.

I am probably also biased because many years ago, around 1990, a friend dragged me to a summer pro-am league game at ancient, tiny Kezar gym in Golden Gate park. It cost 2 bucks to get in. All Stars Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond were on a team, and they were going to play some nobodies from the East Bay.

That nobody team was led by an ugly high school kid with a Kid N Play flattop haircut, and he played Timmy and Mitch straight up and played defense all over the court, had about 8 steals, and it was amazing. The pros were enjoying the hell out of it, and gave him a standing O at the end of the game.

If you ever saw the movie "Hoosiers" - that's what Kidd did in high school. All the teams in California play one huge tourney. Kidd was on St Josephs of Alameda, a school with 350 students. Two years in a row they won the state title, beating gigantic Los Angeles schools ten times bigger with several Division 1 scholarship players in the finals.

So yeah, I may be biased.

[stevemcqueen1]

The Magic were nothing special but yes, beating the 2009 Celtics was a feat. The Celtics lost when Perkins was hurt and Gasol then literally had nobody to bother him under the rim. Despite all that, the Celtics choked away a big 2nd half lead. Kobe was great all series. Artest hit the dagger though. That 3 was ice cold.

I would say the 2005 Pistons were better than 4 of the teams Kobe played in the Finals. The WC was great though. That was the toughest part no doubt. Kings and Blazers were actually good then. And of course the refs helped, alot....in the 2002 WCF.

But the 2001 76ers and 2002 Nets. Lol, epitome of being there because someone has to.

Those years the real finals was usually played in the WCF. It's a good case for why the playoffs should ignore conferences and just go seeds 1-16 kind of like an NCAA round robin. Travel might suck. But you know what, who cares? Stretch the time out in between the games in the opening series if you have to. There are enough games where you don't have to have everyone play every other night.

A finals matchup where Tim Duncan and the Spurs played Kobe Bryant and the Lakers would have been best for the game. Those titles would have been more meaningful IMO.

The Sixers and Nets are interesting. Those teams essentially used the same formula to get to the finals. Great defense and a transcendent guard. You could come out of the East with that. The Nets eventually had Kenyon Martin and Mutumbo. The Sixers had Mutumbo and played pretty good defense all around.

Sounds kind of like today's Bulls no? Though those teams never came close to the 60 win mark.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 07:38 PM ----------


I give Nash full credit for his shooting ability. I don't think his passing was better than Kidd's, but it was a bit flashier. Heck, the whole NBA is flashier now.

We are all prejudiced by what we personally have seen and have been impressed by. I too have seen both Kidd and Nash play many times. Kidd impressed me more because he was almost as good as Nash offensively, but so much better on defense.

I am probably also biased because many years ago, around 1990, a friend dragged me to a summer pro-am league game at ancient, tiny Kezar gym in Golden Gate park. It cost 2 bucks to get in. All Stars Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond were on a team, and they were going to play some nobodies from the East Bay.

That nobody team was led by an ugly high school kid with a Kid N Play flattop haircut, and he played Timmy and Mitch straight up and played defense all over the court, had about 8 steals, and it was amazing. The pros were enjoying the hell out of it, and gave him a standing O at the end of the game.

If you ever saw the movie "Hoosiers" - that's what Kidd did in high school. All the teams in California play one huge tourney. Kidd was on St Josephs of Alameda, a school with 350 students. Two years in a row they won the state title, beating gigantic Los Angeles schools ten times bigger with several Division 1 scholarship players in the finals.

So yeah, I may be biased.

That's an awesome story. That'd be something to see.

I hear you on it being a subjective thing and I agree with your point that Kidd is a better all around player than Nash. He's also been more productive over the whole of his career, came out pretty much from day one as a terrific player whereas Nash took a while to become who he was.

Say you break the game down into three basic categories of offense, defense, and rebounding. I'd say, Kidd is like a B offensive player, a B+ defender, and an A+ rebounder for a guard. Nash is an A+ offensive player, C/C- defender, C rebounder. Kidd is certainly better all around, and he's bigger and more athletic too.

If I were starting a team from square one, I would want Kidd over Nash.

But like I said before, Nash has such a special offensive skillset that would give me a huge tool chest to work with on that end. If I've got a top notch big man already who can finish and play some defense, I'd rather have Nash. I'm a sucker for diverse offensive players who win with skill and cleverness like Nash. Nash is probably my favorite ball handler I've ever seen. Even more than Iverson or Jordan.

Speaking of Jordan and Kidd, have you ever seen this video before? It's really cool.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDfGaV6Da_g

I'll also add that I would MUCH rather see Jason Kidd win another ring this year in New York than Nash get one this year with the Lakers. I want Nash to get a ring, but I would rather see him do it in Miami...

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 07:41 PM ----------

Actually you know Kidd was probably more of an A to A- defender than a B+ defender. I was comparing him to Gary Payton to kind of set the bar at an A+, but it's probably not fair.

[Predicto]

[/COLOR]Actually you know Kidd was probably more of an A to A- defender than a B+ defender. I was comparing him to Gary Payton to kind of set the bar at an A+, but it's probably not fair.

Yeah, I was going to say something about that. heheh

My favorite pure ball handler ever was Tim Hardaway. It seemed to me like he had the ball attached to his hands with a string, and he was just playing it like a yoyo. Total control. Too bad he turned out to be such a homophobe - that was disappointing.

[Sticksboi05]

Comparing any PG other than Frazier to Payton defensively isn't fair.

[stevemcqueen1]

Yeah, I was going to say something about that. heheh

My favorite pure ball handler ever was Tim Hardaway. It seemed to me like he had the ball attached to his hands with a string, and he was just playing it like a yoyo. Total control. Too bad he turned out to be such a homophobe - that was disappointing.

Yeah, too bad about that. What an ignorant, disturbed man he is. I'll never think as highly of him as I did when I was a kid. He always seemed like one of the nicer players too.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 08:53 PM ----------


Comparing any PG other than Frazier to Payton defensively isn't fair.

Have you ever thought about if you were an NBA player, who would you want to play with and who you would hate playing with?

For instance, the two guys I would want to play with the most are probably Barkley and Olajuwon. Maybe CWebb. Probably followed by Nash and Kidd.

It's a matter of personal preference, but Gary Payton would be the guy I would want to play with the absolute least. He's a great player and all, but I can't stand his personality. When he talks I get a thick feeling in my throat and my spine crawls like when you hear nails grating a chalkboard. I couldn't have been around him for more than 48 minutes every few weeks.

Drazen Petrovic would be second. Not only was he just so cocky and unpleasant, Reggie Miller and Steve Smith said he reeked to high heaven and that guarding him was the worst. He didn't shower much. Ugh.