Top 5 small forwards in NBA history [Archive]

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-18th-2012, 09:47 AM

I did think about Rick Barry, but I don't know much about him other than his sons. Oh, and the free throws.

He was Larry Bird before Larry Bird. They had almost the exact same type of game (except Barry didn't have a three point line).

The difference is that while Bird was a prick, Barry was a mean prick. He feuded with coaches, teammates, announcers, etc.

Tony Kornheiser wrote one of the all-time great profiles on him.

"The way I looked alienated a lot of people," Barry says. "I've seen films of myself and seen the faces I made. I looked terrible." He closes his eyes to the memory and shakes his head. "I acted like, a jerk. Did a lot of stupid things. Opened my big mouth and said a lot of things that upset and hurt people. I was an easy person to hate. And I can understand that. I tell kids, There's nothing wrong with playing the way Rick Barry played, but don't act the way Rick Barry acted.' I tell my own kids, 'Do as I say, not as I did.' "

What bothers him isn't that he's not beloved.

"It bothers me," Barry says, "that I'm not even liked."

Supposedly, the higher you climb, the harder it gets. Not so for Barry. At every rung things got easier for him. College basketball was easier than high school. Pro basketball was so much easier than college that it shocked him. In 1966-67, his second pro season, he led the NBA in scoring with a 35.6-points-per-game average—only Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor have ever done better.

Barry's game was founded on quickness. "He ran as fast in the mind as he did in the feet," says Phil Jackson, who, as a member of the New York Knicks, played against Barry. He darted around the court like a hummingbird and with the single-mindedness of a missile. "And that was before he developed his jump shot," says Tom Meschery, who played with Barry on the San Francisco Warriors from 1965 to 1967. "I can't imagine what he'd have been like if he could shoot."

Barry averaged 30 or more points a game in four different seasons; only Chamberlain, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar attained that plateau. He was the best foul shooter in the history of the NBA, with a lifetime percentage of .900. No true forward ever had more assists.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120767/index.htm

MLSKINS

July-18th-2012, 09:58 AM

Didn't know he was that good.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-18th-2012, 10:03 AM

Didn't know he was that good.

He's the only person to lead the NCAA, NBA, and ABA in scoring. He also somehow managed to play for five teams during his first five years as a pro.

The problem with all these NBA lists is that in the 60s, the league played a ridiculous brand of up and down basketball where teams shot every ten seconds despite not being able to make shots. So the stats are completely out of whack. If you could actually shoot, you immediately averaged 25. If you were tall, you immediately averaged 15 rebounds.

The problem in the 70s was that there were two leagues and both were completely unstable.

Can you imagine if Kevin Durant was on his fourth team and second league right now? That's Rick Barry. Barry spent his third year as a pro as a tv broadcaster due to contract madness.

pjfootballer

July-18th-2012, 10:03 AM

In no particular order:

Larry Bird
Elgin Baylor
Julius Erving
Rick Barry
(Tie) Lebron James (6-8 and 260- I think of him as more of a PF, even though he plays SF)
(Tie) Mark Aguirre

EersSkins05

July-18th-2012, 10:05 AM

This may be heresy but I kinda feel like Lebron passed Larry this past June. (And for the record, I LOVE Larry Bird.) They've already got the same number of League MVP's. Lebron has 2 fewer rings (for now), but I don't see how that's not going to change soon. You can't really kill Lebron for joining a Big 3 when Larry had that placed around him through front-office competency that Lebron never experienced in Cleveland.

Their career numbers are remarkably similar, but Lebron is a FAR better defender.

Bird:
PPG 24.3, 50% FG
RPG 10.00
APG 6.3
BPG 0.8
SPG 1.7
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team

Lebron:
PPG 27.6, 49% FG
RPG 7.2
APG 6.9
BPG 0.8
SPG 1.7
4× NBA All-Defensive First Team (and counting)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-18th-2012, 10:05 AM

(It also didn't help Rick Barry's reputation that he dropped a racial slur on Bill Russell from the announcer's table during the '81 Finals).

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 10:07 AM ----------

This may be heresy but I kinda feel like Lebron passed Larry this past June.

You are probably right.

Lebron is eventually going to be #1 on this list and probably no worse than #4 on the all-time list.

I'm just not sure he is really even in his prime yet. That's the scary part. So...I'm giving it to Larry for now. For old time's sake.

earl

July-18th-2012, 10:37 AM

that i've seen
1. Bird
2. Pippen
3. Lebron
4. Julius Irvin
5. Wilkens

not to hijack this thread but, these threads got me thinking..... w/ all the debate about was player X this position or that position, these lists aren't as insightful about the actual players then they could be. i mean how do you compare a guy like mullin who was super wet to a guy like pippen who was a slasher and D player? so i was thinking a NBA superlatives list might be a little bit more entertaining. for example
1. Best pure shooter
2. Best fascilitator
3. Best pure scorer
4. Best Perimeter Defender
5. Best low post defender
6. Rebounder
7. most versatile
8. low post scorer
9. clutch
10. most explosive
11. best finisher
12. best handles

etc. etc.

I don't typically start threads, so if someone else thinks this is a worthy excercise please feel free to start it. i'd play.

MLSKINS

July-18th-2012, 10:38 AM

1. Best pure shooter
2. Best fascilitator
3. Best pure scorer
4. Best Perimeter Defender
5. Best low post defender
6. Rebounder
7. most versatile
8. low post scorer
9. clutch
10. most explosive
11. best finisher
12. best handles

etc. etc.

I don't typically start threads, so if someone else thinks this is a worthy excercise please feel free to start it. i'd play.
That aint a bad idea.

Sticksboi05

July-18th-2012, 10:39 AM

I'm giving it to Larry for now because he won 3 rings going up against some of the best teams in NBA history along the way. Certainly Magic's Lakers are a much tougher task than the 2011-12 Knicks/Celtics/Pacers and Thunder. LeBron will be #1 by the end of his career obviously and top 5 all-time but with only 1 ring I don't have him over Bird yet.

As far as talent, yes.

Sticksboi05

July-18th-2012, 01:07 PM

(It also didn't help Rick Barry's reputation that he dropped a racial slur on Bill Russell from the announcer's table during the '81 Finals).

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 10:07 AM ----------

You are probably right.

Lebron is eventually going to be #1 on this list and probably no worse than #4 on the all-time list.

I'm just not sure he is really even in his prime yet. That's the scary part. So...I'm giving it to Larry for now. For old time's sake.

Wow, that's not going to help publicity. At all.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-18th-2012, 01:16 PM

Wow, that's not going to help publicity. At all.

Read that Kornheiser article. It's amazing.

Dan T.

July-18th-2012, 01:27 PM

Rick Barry alienated half of the United States when he told the press he didn't want to play for the ABA's Virginia Squires because "I don't want my kids growing up with a Southern accent."

Predicto

July-18th-2012, 01:54 PM

I go with

Larry Bird
Lebron James (he will pass Bird soon if he hasn't already)
Scottie Pippen
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor

It's hard to leave Dr. J and Havlicek off that list, but oh well.

As far as Barry goes, it should be noted that he played for 5 different teams in his first five years not because he wasn't a great player or teams didn't want him. His first team (the Warriors) refused to pay him diddly squat, so he jumped to the ABA Oakland Oaks when Owner Pat Boone offered him big money. The Oaks had the best record in the ABA but failed financially and moved to Washington DC where they were called the Capitols. The Caps changed to name to the Virginia Squires, but still had money problems so they sold Barry to the New York Nets to pay their bills. A couple years later a federal judge ruled that Barry had to return to the NBA Warriors.

Barry was a dick, but he was really, really good in all aspects of the game except getting along with people. He was Bird's equal offensively, and was a much better defender than Bird, and carried some untalented teams to really good records (and one NBA title). But Bird has the rings and the great moments, and deserves to be No. 1.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 11:56 AM ----------

Rick Barry alienated half of the United States when he told the press he didn't want to play for the ABA's Virginia Squires because "I don't want my kids growing up with a Southern accent."

The guy had foot in mouth disease like you wouldn't believe, and has spent the rest of his life wondering why people don't like him. Warriors fans don't even like him, and he brought us our only NBA title.

I think Barry may have an undiagnosed personality disorder.

JMS

July-18th-2012, 02:04 PM

Larry Bird
- basketball Hall of Fame
- member of three championship teams
- 10th all-time in free throw % in NBA history
- three-time NBA MVP
- NBA Rookie of the Year
- two-time NBA Finals MVP
- 10-time All-NBA selection
- 12-time NBA All-Star
- NBA All-Rookie Team
- three-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection

Julius Erving
- basketball Hall of Fame
- member of three NBA/ABA championship teams
- 16-time NBA/ABA All-Star
- four-time NBA/ABA MVP
- 12-time All-NBA/ABA selection
- ABA All-Rookie Team
- one-time ABA All-Defensive Team selection
- fifth all-time in field goals made in NBA/ABA history
- seventh all-time in steals in NBA/ABA history
- fifth all-time in points in NBA/ABA history

John Havlicek
- basketball Hall of Fame member
- member of eight NBA championship teams
- NBA Finals MVP
- NBA All-Rookie Team
- 11-time All-NBA selection
- eight-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection
- 13-time NBA All-Star
- ninth all-time in minutes played in NBA history
- ninth all-time in field goals made in NBA history

Elgin Baylor
- basketball Hall of Fame
- sixth all-time in minutes per game in NBA history
- fourth all-time in points per game in NBA history
- ninth all-time in rebounds per game in NBA history
- 11-time NBA All-Star
- NBA Rookie of the Year
- 10-time All-NBA selection

Scottie Pippen
- basketball Hall of Fame
- member of six NBA championship teams
- sixth in steals in NBA history
- seven-time NBA All-Star
- 10-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection
- seven-time All-NBA selection

Lebron isn't in the top 5 yet.

He had a great year last year.. but is everybody forgetting how he tanked the series against the Celtics while in Cleveland? Lebron's got a little ways to go to get on this list, I'd still go with Pipen and his six titles over Lebron; much less having him displace Bird at this point in his career.

Barry was a dick, but he was really, really good in all aspects of the game except getting along with people. He was Bird's equal offensively, and was a much better defender than Bird, and carried some untalented teams to really good records (and one NBA title). But Bird has the rings and the great moments, and deserves to be No. 1.

Bird was a dick too.

http://www.landoflegends.com/catalog/0a75_1_1479_1.JPG

they both had 10 all NBA selections but
Bird won 3 championships.. Barry 1
Bird had 2 finals MVP's to Barry's 1
Bird had 3 league MVP's Barry 0

Bird had a much better career.

Sticksboi05

July-18th-2012, 02:25 PM

Barry was a dick, but he was really, really good in all aspects of the game except getting along with people. He was Bird's equal offensively, and was a much better defender than Bird, and carried some untalented teams to really good records (and one NBA title). But Bird has the rings and the great moments, and deserves to be No. 1.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 11:56 AM ----------

The guy had foot in mouth disease like you wouldn't believe, and has spent the rest of his life wondering why people don't like him. Warriors fans don't even like him, and he brought us our only NBA title.

I think Barry may have an undiagnosed personality disorder.

Bird did everything. The more I watch his full games, the more impressed I am. And he was an All-NBA defensive player. Did it on both sides of the ball. Rebounded great for a SF. Could make plays and was tough as nails. The NBA HOF page says he was sometimes maligned for his defense (Barry) and he didn't make any Defensive Teams. Just surprising you say he was better than Bird defensively. I'm asking since both were before my time.

MLSKINS

July-18th-2012, 02:42 PM

Lebron isn't in the top 5 yet.

He had a great year last year.. but is everybody forgetting how he tanked the series against the Celtics while in Cleveland? Lebron's got a little ways to go to get on this list, I'd still go with Pipen and his six titles over Lebron; much less having him displace Bird at this point in his career.
It's well known amongst the basketball fans on ES that I don't really care too much for Lebron. But right now, he is the second best SF ever. Yeah, he did tanked against the Celtics in Cleveland, but as most know by now, there were non-basketball things on his mind. Larry Bird probably would have rose above that, and that is why he is number one.

As far as comparing Bird to Rick Barry on accomplishments, I already said I don't know much about Barry. But I guarantee you he didn't have the talent around him that Bird did. Now if all the stuff you are saying about Barry is true, I have know problem with him being compared to Bird.

Predicto

July-18th-2012, 02:51 PM

they both had 10 all NBA selections but

Bird won 3 championships.. Barry 1
Bird had 2 finals MVP's to Barry's 1
Bird had 3 league MVP's Barry 0

Bird had a much better career.

Bird played with these other guys named McHale and Parish and Johnson and Walton. That's why he has 3 rings and Barry has 1. And Barry played almost half his career in the ABA.

It's a lot closer than you think.

Predicto

July-18th-2012, 03:08 PM

Bird did everything. The more I watch his full games, the more impressed I am. And he was an All-NBA defensive player. Did it on both sides of the ball. Rebounded great for a SF. Could make plays and was tough as nails. The NBA HOF page says he was sometimes maligned for his defense (Barry) and he didn't make any Defensive Teams. Just surprising you say he was better than Bird defensively. I'm asking since both were before my time.

Barry came into the league as a defender. As his career went on, he was not seen as great one on one defender, but he was an excellent team defender. Kind of like Bird, actually, but he was a lot quicker than Bird. The Warriors won their title with a pressure defense led by Barry. Bird, to his credit, was much stronger and a better rebounder.

I think a lot of the criticism of Barry's defense came from the fact that everyone pretty much hated him, but had no way to criticize his shooting or passing. His unpopularity probably cost him at least one MVP award.

stevemcqueen1

July-18th-2012, 04:13 PM

1.) Bird until LeBron passes him.
2.) LeBron
3.) Dr. J
4.) Elgin Baylor
5.) Hondo

LeBron is the first active player I've put on one of these lists so far. Like Kobe, his legacy has already started to crystalize.

Of my lifetime, excluding active players, I'd go:

1.) Bird
2.) James Worthy
3.) Pippen
4.) Bernard King
5.) Dominique Wilkens

Wilkens probably had the better career than King, but if you gave me the choice of either in their prime, I'd rather have King.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 05:19 PM ----------

Bird's the most skilled basketball player I've ever seen. I have a hard time believing anyone was his equal offensively--skill wise. Passing, rebounding, shooting. He pulled off more completely amazing bull**** than anyone I can think of. Like a rich man's Dirk.

LeBron today is a better all around player than Bird was in his prime though. He can do almost everything Bird could, while also being a world class athlete that can defend all five positions at an elite level.

Oh, and Pippen isn't fit to hold LeBron's jock.

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 05:20 PM ----------

If LeBron starts rattling off consecutive titles in Miami, he will be remembered as the GOAT. I think he finishes second to Jordan when all is said and done.

JMS

July-18th-2012, 06:58 PM

It's well known amongst the basketball fans on ES that I don't really care too much for Lebron. But right now, he is the second best SF ever. Yeah, he did tanked against the Celtics in Cleveland, but as most know by now, there were non-basketball things on his mind. Larry Bird probably would have rose above that, and that is why he is number one.

As far as comparing Bird to Rick Barry on accomplishments, I already said I don't know much about Barry. But I guarantee you he didn't have the talent around him that Bird did. Now if all the stuff you are saying about Barry is true, I have know problem with him being compared to Bird.

It's very very hard to justify putting Lebron at this point above Dr J.... Dr J. was considered the best basketball player ever to lace up boots in his time. He was Jordan before Jordan. There is frankly nothing Lebron has done at this point in his career that Julious Erving doesn't eclipse....

Julius Erving
- basketball Hall of Fame ( Lebron 0 )
- member of three NBA/ABA championship teams ( Lebron 1)
- 16-time NBA/ABA All-Star ( Lebron 8 )
- four-time NBA/ABA MVP ( Lebron 3)
- 12-time All-NBA/ABA selection ( Lebron 6)
- ABA All-Rookie Team ( Lebron same)
- one-time ABA All-Defensive Team selection ( Lebron 4 *** )
- fifth all-time in field goals made in NBA/ABA history ( lebron not ranked)
- seventh all-time in steals in NBA/ABA history ( Lebron not ranked )
- fifth all-time in points in NBA/ABA history ( Lebron Not ranked)

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 08:03 PM ----------

Bird played with these other guys named McHale and Parish and Johnson and Walton. That's why he has 3 rings and Barry has 1. And Barry played almost half his career in the ABA.

It's a lot closer than you think.

Bird Made McHale, and Parish who were both traded to the Celtics; DJ was a great player but he really sacrificed his stats for the team, he was very good defensively and rarely got to show his offensive game with the celtics where he was relegated to bring up the ball for Bird..... Bird only had Walton for 1 of his 3 championships and Walton at that point in his career didn't even start.

One more Bird stat.... With the ball in his hand bird was the most efficient player in the history of the game. He scored, had an assist, or was fouled as a percentage of ball possession more than any player in NBA history... They say great players make their teams better. Bird did that, Magic did that ( if it's possible to make Abdule Jabar better),... Barry didn't do that..

---------- Post added July-18th-2012 at 08:13 PM ----------

Of my lifetime, excluding active players, I'd go:

1.) Bird
2.) James Worthy
3.) Pippen
4.) Bernard King
5.) Dominique Wilkens
LeBron today is a better all around player than Bird was in his prime though. He can do almost everything Bird could, while also being a world class athlete that can defend all five positions at an elite level.

James Worthy?

Oh, and Pippen isn't fit to hold LeBron's jock.

Except Pipin has six NBA titles and Lebron has 1. Yeah yeah Pipen needed Jordan to win, but Jordan never won anything without Pipen; and Lebron never won without Dwyane Wade and worse Dwyane Wade has won a few without Lebron.

If LeBron starts rattling off consecutive titles in Miami, he will be remembered as the GOAT. I think he finishes second to Jordan when all is said and done.

I agree, If Lebron has another year like he had last year, he'll crack the top 5 and he's still young...

Predicto

July-18th-2012, 07:18 PM

They say great players make their teams better. Bird did that, Magic did that ( if it's possible to make Abdule Jabar better),... Barry didn't do that.

What are you talking about? Of course Barry did that. He won a championship with an otherwise talent-free team. Every team he went to improved dramatically as soon as he got there.

Barry also ranks on the short list of greatest underdog players in basketball history, as his teams repeatedly overachieved despite marginal talent around him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Barry

JMS

July-18th-2012, 07:27 PM

What are you talking about? Of course Barry did that. He won a championship with an otherwise talent-free team. Every team he went to improved dramatically as soon as he got there.

Alright alright, you know more about Barry than I do. Good points.. Uncle...

I had him ranked sixth still ahead of Lebron at 7.. I don't put him above Bird, or Dr. J.

PeterMP

July-18th-2012, 09:51 PM

deejaydana

July-18th-2012, 10:45 PM

No Sir Charles? He's not the top but he epitomized what a small forward should be. He played SO much bigger then he actually was. He deserves to be in thetop 5 hands down.

Barney B

July-19th-2012, 12:00 AM

No Sir Charles?

Barkley actually played power forward, though he gave up a lot of height to other PF's around the league. I used to love watching him light up the detestable Karl Malone, scoring whichever way he felt like scoring.

Anyway:

1- Bird
2- Elgin Baylor
3- Julius Erving
4- LeBron (#1 soon enough)
5- Rick Barry

Bird Made McHale

:thud:

Sorry, I just couldn't let this pass. Here's what Sir Charles said about McHale: "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."

And here's why (feel free to forward to the 2:00 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnIifSra3GA

pjfootballer

July-19th-2012, 07:03 AM

I always hate to use teamates to justify whether or not a player is good or why they won championships. Either you're good or your not. Bird would have been good on any team. He was just lucky to have the teamates he did. Same with Rick Barry. Barry was good, but he didn't have the luck of having good teams around him. You cannot take away from either because of the teams they played on, nor can you take away anything they because of it. I mean, Karl Maone, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, were all good players. They just weren't able to win a championship.

stevemcqueen1

July-19th-2012, 07:09 AM

JMS, how can you say Bird made Parish and McHale but then give Pippen credit for riding the Michael Jordan train to 6 titles as a reason he's better than LeBron? That's a contradiction.

This year, Dwyane Wade was the Pippen to LeBron's Jordan. He was along for the ride. He was Batman in 2006 and had a tremendous finals, but he's just not that player any more.

LeBron James is better in every. single. way. than Scottie Pippen ever was. Better defender, better scorer, better rebounder, better passer, better ball handler, better athlete. Pippen was a great player. But there is not a single thing on a basketball court that he could do better than LeBron when he was in his absolute prime.

LeBron is a DPOTY caliber defender that guards all five positions and 30 PER offensive player. The NBA game has not been played before like LeBron is playing it now that he's made LeLeap.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 08:19 AM ----------

James Worthy?

I love watching Big Game James. To me he's the quintissential "take nothing away from the table" player. He brought a whole lot of good to a team with two ball dominant transcdendet offensive players without taking anything off the table.

I love how skillful he was in the post. Just a smooth smooth player with a huge variety of moves and finishes.

He also had a knack for making great plays in big moments, especially in the playoffs. I think he could make any team in the league better and fit into any organization, no matter what their roster situation or chemistry outlook was. Much better offensive player than Pippen. More reliable than Bernard King. Less selfish and a better teammate than Dominique. He'd be my second choice of SFs of my lifetime (excluding active players).

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 08:30 AM ----------

2. Benard King is one of the best "non-big" players I've ever seens. He was a better scorer and than Dominique and a better and more willing defender. IF he could have stayed healthy the legacies from that era of basketball in terms of who won how many Champoinships would have been different.

I thought about placing King higher based off pure talent. But I couldn't because of his drug problems and how that knee injury ruined his career. His off court problems got in the way of his career and he bounced around the league because of them. He could be an offensive maestro for your club and you'd still have to trade him. You couldn't trust him to always be clean and be a Pro.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 08:23 AM

No Sir Charles? He's not the top but he epitomized what a small forward should be. He played SO much bigger then he actually was. He deserves to be in thetop 5 hands down.

He played the 4.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 08:25 AM ----------

1

2. Benard King is one of the best "non-big" players I've ever seens. He was a better scorer and than Dominique and a better and more willing defender. IF he could have stayed healthy the legacies from that era of basketball in terms of who won how many Champoinships would have been different.

There was something like an 18 month period where King was the best player in the NBA and maybe one of the five best players in NBA history. At his absolute peak, he was better than Bird, and I think Bird knew that.

And then he became a drug addict with a limp.

By the way....

Folks are really really over-rating Dr. J - though he may be the most difficult player to discuss in sports history. He's the only modern athlete where nearly nothing of his prime is on videotape.

The only prime years Doc I've really ever seen is the 1977 Finals that used to run on ESPN Classic on a weekly basis. The 76ers just looked like a super-talented Rucker League team that didn't really know how to play basketball. I don't think he quite grasped the NBA game until the 80s when he had lost a step.

It also always seemed to be that in those Celtics-76ers wars he was never the "leader." Before Moses, that felt like Andrew Toney's team. In '83, it was Moses' team.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 08:37 AM ----------

they both had 10 all NBA selections but
Bird won 3 championships.. Barry 1
Bird had 2 finals MVP's to Barry's 1
Bird had 3 league MVP's Barry 0

Bird had a much better career.

Bird had more accolades because people gave them to him to some degree.

Read this part of the Kornheiser article.

In the 1974-75 season, when he led the Golden State Warriors to the NBA championship, Barry averaged 30.6 points per game, led the league in free-throw percentage and steals and was sixth in assists, the only forward in the Top 10. Yet in the voting for MVP—a vote by players—Barry finished fourth.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 08:39 AM ----------

It's very very hard to justify putting Lebron at this point above Dr J.... Dr J. was considered the best basketball player ever to lace up boots in his time...

He was never considered that.

By no one.

Ever.

He was considered the most exciting player in the history of the universe. But he had an iffy jumper and could be a lazy defender, even by ABA standards.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 08:46 AM ----------

Here's a paragraph from a 1979 article on Dr. J. I will give JMS this much. The article does mention that in his ABA heydey, Doc was considered the best player in the world. But I would argue that was because no one actually saw him play. You would see one jaw-dropping highlight a week. It's not a fair comparison but imagine if you saw only a few basketball highlights a week and they always included the most impressive thing Javale McGhee did that week.

For one, Erving is just not the same player he was in the ABA. A comparison of his last two years with the Nets and his first two years in Philadelphia shows that Dr. J had 1,507 more points, 663 more rebounds, 310 more free throws, 300 more assists, 107 more blocked shots and 99 more steals for the Nets. His five-year ABA scoring average of 28.5 is almost eight full points above his NBA average. Erving's 49% field-goal and 75% free-throw figures this season are nearly the lowest of his career.

These differences can be attributed to several factors other than the lingering fable of NBA superiority—an argument you might take up with Moses Malone, George Gervin, Maurice Lucas, McGinnis, Thompson, Jones or any of the other NBA all-stars Erving played with and against in the ABA.

First and foremost, at its best, Dr. J's game has always been one of refined speed, finesse and creativity and lightning movement in the open court when he elected to come down from the rafters and engage in man-to-man confrontations. What the pros call "breaking down" an opponent is something Erving could and still can do better than anyone. In the NBA, however, everybody doubles up on him, which is natural, but teams also pack defenders down low, clog the lanes and (sh, keep this a secret now) zone the bejeezus out of the Doctor. This makes it practically impossible for Erving to consistently drive to the hole for the swoop baskets by means of which he developed his Dr. J reputation. In addition, the NBA push-and-shove oxcart defensive philosophy severely cramps Erving's lateral style, turning him into just another jump shooter. And he's not a very good jump shooter.

Then, too, Erving has exhibited other glaring flaws, at least for a certifiable, all-universe player. In Philly he has been only an adequate rebounder. Although he is a good passer, he tends to dribble into traffic too much, breaking the team pattern or not concluding the play, and he sometimes winds up committing himself in the air and throwing the ball away. This has resulted in several eight- and nine-turnover horror shows.

It is on defense, however, that Dr. J is most vulnerable. His proclivity for becoming trapped in switches and for losing his own man while helping out others has caused him to be embarrassed by some very strange customers. Chicago's Ollie Johnson and Denver's Bob Wilkerson had big nights against Dr. J. Boston's Curtis Rowe, at the time averaging all of three points, rejuvenated his career with a midseason 17-point miracle, many of the points coming against Erving. And in a game in the Spectrum, Kansas City's Bob Nash came off the bench to score 18 of his 24 points against Erving, after which the Philadelphia press took off the gloves.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094767/2/index.htm

JMS

July-19th-2012, 08:55 AM

( On Bird Made McHale )

:thud:

Sorry, I just couldn't let this pass. Here's what Sir Charles said about McHale: "Kevin McHale's the best player I played against because he was unstoppable offensively, and he gave me nightmares on defense."

Wasn't intended to be a disrespectful statement. McHale was a great power forward, he was 3 time all defensive first team, and 3 time all defense second team and more importantly his teams stuffed Charles Barkley's teams consistently throughout the 1980's. McHale was an ideal complement to Bird. I don't think it's controversial to say Bird made McHale. Bird was the leader of that team, and McHale openly competed with Bird and rated himself against Bird. It pushed him and he and the Celtics were better for it.. Larry Bird once said of McHale, we aren't going to win any championships without him. Bird needed folks around him to step up. Bird needed McHale to win championships, as Jordan needed Pipen, as Magic needed Worthy; and like Pipen and Worthy in the absence of Bird, Michale slid into mediocrity.

Just a shout out to Red Auerbach here.. In one of the most lopsided trades of all time the Celtics traded the #1 overall draft pick in 1980 to Golden State in exchange for Robert Parish and golden State's #3 pick. Golden State picked Joe Barry Carroll, Celtics got Kevin McHale.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 10:23 AM ----------

He was never considered that.

By no one.

Ever.

Here's a paragraph from a 1979 article on Dr. J. I will give JMS this much. The article does mention that in his ABA heydey, Doc was considered the best player in the world. But I would argue that was because no one actually saw him play.

Except for the first article you found when you went to Google... Everybody saw Dr. J play. Dr. J did things with the ball nobody had ever seen before. He made the slam dunk a cultural phenomena that Michael built upon. People might not have watched an NBA game, but they couldn't fail to see the image of Dr. J doing the finger role over some 7 foot dork, or leaving his feet from the foul line and floating over three players and dunking.... Dr J WAS Michael Jordan before Jordan. He was the NBA before Bird and Magic. He was the personality which made the NBA relevant.

I personally thought Dr. J's dunks were more artistic and pure than Jordan's. they were both incredible athletes with incredible lift and quickness. But Jordan had small hands and could never palm the ball so he used to trap the ball against his wrist when he jammed. Dr. J could palm, and there is nothing like the image of Dr. J floating down the lane with the ball over his head in one hand like an avenging angel about to dunk.

You take Dr. J's ABA and NBA careers he finishes 5th all time scoring leaders... just behind Wilt Chamberlain, just ahead Moses Malone. 30026 pts...

He was considered the most exciting player in the history of the universe. But he had an iffy jumper and could be a lazy defender, even by ABA standards.

:doh: Dr J was ABA All-Defensive First Team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Basketball_Association_awards_and _honors#All-Defensive_Team) (1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975%E2%80%9376_ABA_season))

And there was nothing wrong with his jump shot. Jordan's career mirrored Dr. J's to some extent. Jordan didn't have a respectable jump shot early in his career. He didn't need one cause he was winning scoring titles by slamming on people. Same with Dr. J. Jordan developed a killer medium set shot latter in his career as his quickness waned... Dr J made that transition too. Dr J was probable Jordan's role model when he made the transition.

There is no argument one can make for Lebron which eclipses Dr J at #2 spot at small forward at this point in time

Lebron 1 championship Dr. J 3
Lebron 1 finals MVP Dr. J 3
Lebron 3 League MVP Dr. J 4

You would see one jaw-dropping highlight a week. It's not a fair comparison but imagine if you saw only a few basketball highlights a week and they always included the most impressive thing Javale McGhee did that week.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094767/2/index.htm

And you would have a point if Dr J didn't start or was considered a project, who failed like McGhee. As it was Dr J was the leader of 3 championship teams, won the MVP trophy 4 times,
and 12-time All-NBA/ABA selection.

So basically you have no point.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 09:46 AM

Except for the first article you found when you went to Google

When I was 12, I inherited every SI published from 1976 to 1984. I was a strange child and read all of them. I still have 25 or so of my favorites in storage. (Mark Fydrich with Big Bird. Larry Bird at ISU with "Guess Who's Number 1 Cover.") I know what I'm looking for when I go to the SI vault.

(Completely pointless aside. The house I grew up in was built in 1919. It had one bathroom upstairs. At some point in the 60s, the previous owner installed a toilet in a dark corner of the creepy basement. Just a toilet. In the mid 80s, my parents added a stand alone shower and some really badly laid tile to that corner, creating a "second bathroom". Sort of. There was no door so if you were using the can and someone walked down the basement steps, all they had to do was turn slightly left to see you in your glory.

Anyway......this was the "bathroom" my mom forced my father and I to use, because she wanted to keep the upstairs bathroom clean. Apparently, men are disgusting. I spent the years between my 11th and 18th birthdays pooping next to a limestone wall with a bare lightbulb above my head. It was like pooping in a Cuban jail.

I kept the large box of ancient Sports Illustrateds near that toilet. After a Sunday dinner of spaghetti and meatballs at my grandma's house, I could get through three issues in a single sitting. All my historical sports knowledge comes from the fact that I had a sensitive stomach).

Everybody saw Dr. J play.

False. The ABA had no national tv contract.

Dr. J did things with the ball nobody had ever seen before. He made the slam dunk a cultural phenomena that Michael built upon

True.

People might not have watched an NBA game, but they couldn't fail to see the image of Dr. J doing the finger role over some 7 foot dork

People saw Doc in the NBA. They did not see him in his prime in the ABA. That's my point.

Dr J WAS Michael Jordan before Jordan. He was the NBA before Bird and Magic. He was the personality which made the NBA relevant.

The NBA Finals was being shown tape delay when Doc was the face of the NBA.

I personally thought Dr. J's dunks were more artistic and pure than Jordan's.

I would go with that.

You take Dr. J's ABA and NBA careers he finishes 5th all time scoring leaders... just behind Wilt Chamberlain, just ahead Moses Malone. 30026 pts...

1970s NBA stats are weird to begin with. ABA stats are more or less meaningless.

:doh: Dr J was ABA All-Defensive First Team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Basketball_Association_awards_and _honors#All-Defensive_Team) (1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975%E2%80%9376_ABA_season))
[COLOR=Gold]
[/COLOR

I find the very idea of an ABA All Defensive Team kind of hilarious.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 10:17 AM

When I was 12, I inherited every SI published from 1976 to 1984. I was a strange child and read all of them. I still have 25 or so of my favorites in storage. (Mark Fydrich with Big Bird. Larry Bird at ISU with "Guess Who's Number 1 Cover.") I know what I'm looking for when I go to the SI vault.

I'm confused which of Dr. J's 7 Sports Illistrated covers do you have? Which of the 125 articles did you read?

11th and 18th birthdays pooping next to a limestone wall with a bare lightbulb above my head. It was like pooping in a Cuban jail.

That is a little disturbing image... but it does explain a lot.

False. The ABA had no national tv contract.

I'm sorry what part of "cultural phenomena" don't you understand. You could watch Dr. J clips on the evening news! Everybody saw him, he had the #1 poster of all time until Farrah displaced him.

People saw Doc in the NBA. They did not see him in his prime in the ABA. That's my point.

Dr. came into the NBA when he was 26. It's not like he was 36.

The NBA Finals was being shown tape delay when Doc was the face of the NBA.

He was the face of the ABA. The sports illustrated cover announcing the merger of the leagues featured him and Dave Cowens because it was going to be such a culture shock.

1970s NBA stats are weird to begin with. ABA stats are more or less meaningless.

That's one argument, I disagree but it's a discussion. Here are my points..

(1) The ABA used NBA referees.
(2) The NBA wasn't the NBA prior to the merger either... they only had a dozen teams.
(3) The ABA merged with the NBA... So AFL teams and players became NBA teams. It's not like Hershel Walker playing in the USFL which went away and he joins Dallas. The League Merged so the teams were comparable.
(4) The ABA was created to be merged with the NBA. At the time the ABA was created the NBA had no national TV contract but was still asking for a huge license fee for new franchises. The ABA was created to compete with the NBA and merge with it allowing the original ABA owners to skirt the licensing fee. When the ABA was 2 years old they started to play inter league with the NBA and the NBA owners voted to merge with them. It took them six years to ultimately merge because of a players lawsuit which alleged anti trust. (Oscar Robinson)... But the leagues were run in cooperation with each other for most of the time they were apart.

I find the very idea of an ABA All Defensive Team kind of hilarious.

No comment.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------

Dr. J's sports Illistrated Covers..

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1974/0114_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1976/0517_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1976/1025_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1980/0428_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1982/0531_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1983/0228_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1987/0504_large.jpg
---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:21 AM ----------

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 10:24 AM

I'm confused which of Dr. J's 7 Sports Illistrated covers do you have? Which of the 125 articles did you read?

I did not have the iconic 1974 "Whats's Up? Doc J" cover. That would have been awesome.

I did have the 1976 Nets cover. I had the other ones. (Though I have no memory at all of that Cowens cover. I must have had it. SI studio shots in the 70s were fabulously awkward. In the 80s, they started to look live cover shots of BlueBoy Magazine).

The 1987 retirement cover I got through my own subscription, but I never really kept those except in really rare instances.

I was always a Bird guy. I kept all the Bird covers. I especially loved the ISU covers. That 1977 college basketball preview with the two ugliest cheerleaders you've ever seen was awesome. Bird looked like an extra from Deliverance.

I'm sorry what part of "cultural phenomena" don't you understand. You could watch Dr. J clips on the evening news! Everybody saw him, he had the #1 poster of all time until Farrah displaced him.

I don't actually think you could watch clips of Doc on the evening news in 1975. There is no way a tv station in Detroit had the local New York UHF feed or whatever you needed to actually get Dr. J highlights.

He was the face of the ABA. The sports illustrated cover announcing the merger of the leagues featured him and Dave Cowens because it was going to be such a culture shock.

Why are we arguing his cultural significance? He was famous. Really really really famous. I'm talking about him as a basketball player. This has gone off the rails.

PS

Was there really a need to put all those photos in one post? This thread is going to take an hour to open now.

Sticksboi05

July-19th-2012, 10:26 AM

JMS

July-19th-2012, 10:48 AM

I love how Pippen supposedly floundered without Jordan. He had a career year in 94 when MJ was off sucking at baseball. He almost took the Bulls back to the Finals. Yeah no **** he wasn't as good on Portland, he was old and past his prime. He was in his 13th season in the league when he went there.

Yes he really lifted his game... he got half a rebound more in 94 and a full extra point per game over what he had accomplished in 92 with Jordan..

I'm not knocking Pipen. I had a brush with him. I was boarding a flight from Chicago to Memphis during the Jordan years. I was a 100,000k flyer so I got to board the plan early. As I was going up to the ticketing counter Pipen walked up and asked to board early too cause so many people were asking for his autograph and all. I was standing right next to him. No way he's 6' 8", dude would be lucky to go 6' 5". Anyway they let him on early, I'm right behind him. Put my bag in the overhead and there is this little worn crappy gold nylon carry on which Pipen had, already in the rack... I glanced at it, says.. 1992 Olympic Basketball Team on it... Did a double take.... anyway we were both sitting in first class across from each other. First the ground crew comes up and gets his autograph. Then the flight crew. then every passenger who walks by him going to there seat maybe 100 people takes a moment and says Hi and chats with him and get's his autograph. Pipen was the nicest most respectful, most cordial guy I've ever seen. I was really really impressed with him... I think it was latter that year he got caught with the pistol in his car. Pipen will always be a guy I think highly of. I was very impressed.. Class act. I do not think I would have had the patience to have suffered though that recieving line to board a plane, and think Pipen was doing that for years.

Sticksboi05

July-19th-2012, 10:52 AM

My point was his stats didn't drop when MJ retired, they went up. Slightly but they did.

stevemcqueen1

July-19th-2012, 10:54 AM

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 10:54 AM

Pipen sounds like a knockoff mascott of one Pillsbury's competitors.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 10:56 AM ----------

One of the greatest beta dogs in NBA history though. He was an amazingly useful player.

I have a real soft spot for those types of players though.

I have McHale in the top five on the power forward list for a lot of the same reasons I had Pippen.

Could you win a title with McHale or Pippen as your #1 guy? Maybe not.

But if they are your #2 guy, you simply cannot lose.

Sticksboi05

July-19th-2012, 11:01 AM

Pippen had big numbers that first year Jordan was gone because the Bulls were still a solid team and they ran every play through him. But he absolutely struggled to handle his role as the new leader for the team and he damn near had a nervous breakdown by the end of the season. I think I read once that time with Pippen was one of Phil Jackson's most challenging seasons coaching because he had to constantly baby Pippen. The dude just wasn't cut out to be the alpha dog on a team.

Put him on a different where he has to be the man like Bird, LeBron, Dr. J, or even Dominique and Bernard King and I don't think he would have ever been much. To be an alpha dog you not only have to be the undisputed leader of your team, you have to also be able to take every opponents best shot every single night. I don't think Pippen could handle either of those responsibilities.

One of the greatest beta dogs in NBA history though. He was an amazingly useful player.

Mentally he probably wasn't up to the task, the whole Kukoc last play nonsense etc. But he became the focal point of the team and didn't start sucking was my point. If Gretzky suddenly was a career 60 point player, Jari Kurri surely couldn't fill in his role as well as Pippen did for MJ in 1994. Pippen was like Jaromir Jagr to Jordan's Mario Lemieux. When the top dog was out, he still performed. As a basketball player he was so well-rounded. Could score, could pass, could rebound and was an all-time perimeter defender and had the size to defend most positions.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 11:03 AM

I did not have the iconic 1974 "Whats's Up? Doc J" cover. That would have been awesome.

I did have the 1976 Nets cover. I had the other ones.

The 1987 retirement cover I got through my own subscription, but I never really kept those except in really rare instances.

I was always a Bird guy. I kept all the Bird covers. I especially loved the ISU covers. That 1977 college basketball preview with the two ugliest cheerleaders you've ever seen was awesome. Bird looked like an extra from Deliverance.

That was a nice post. Here is the cover you were describing..

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1977/1128_large.jpg

I don't actually think you could watch clips of Doc on the evening news in 1975. There is no way a tv station in Detroit had the local New York UHF feed or whatever you needed to actually get Dr. J highlights.

Yeah I'm a little older than you so I was actually watching the news back then. The fact that it was never done before and they did it for Dr J was the point. The evening news programs had to go out and get the footage from Dr. J's games because it was so spectacular. Nobody had ever seen a guy going up for a dunk, get intercepted in mid air, put the ball around his wast and go under the rim and dunk on the far side of the rim before. Leave from the foul line and dunk on someone. Jordan did it in the late 80's and it was amazing and captured the nations imagination.. Dr J did that in the 70's and he was really the first to get so creative like that. I can't remember a basketball player before Dr J to get a nick name like that. Maybe another ABA player, George Gervin ( Ice Man) so clutch he was said to have ice in his veins... I remember the Bullets going against Gervin when they were going for their two NBA finals... Saw Gervin drop 40 on them.

Why are we arguing his cultural significance? He was famous. Really really really famous. I'm talking about him as a basketball player. This has gone off the rails.

He was such a great basketball player he became a cultural phenomena, as Jordan did. That's the whole point.

PS

Was there really a need to put all those photos in one post? This thread is going to take an hour to open now.

Sorry didn't know you were using a telephone modem.

EersSkins05

July-19th-2012, 11:04 AM

1. There is no way that Scottie Pippen is one of the best SF in the history of the NBA. Yes, he was a good defender, but he wasn't the GREAT defender people claim now. Go back and watch those series with the Pistons. They weren't moving Pippen around to guard the best player on the court or even 2nd best player. He mostly assigned to whoever the other SF was for the most part. Now, they would switch some and use Pippen to trap some, but there were multiple SF in that era that you could have dropped on that team w/o it mattering. You put the likes of Cedric Ceballos on that team, and the difference would have been miniscule.

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

It is true that Ceballos wouldn't have been as good a defender, but he would have been a better perimeter shooter.

When Pippen went to Portland and the went 59-23 (0.72) and made the Western Conference finals, but the year before they were 35-14 (0.71; strike season) and lost in the Western Confernce finals.

And then the next 3 years, it was out in the first round of the playoffs (twice to 3-0 sweeps).

Pippen guarded Magic in the 91 Finals, Charles Barkley in the 93 Finals, Anfernee Hardaway in the Magic/Bulls playoff series in 95 and 96, and Mark Jackson in the way-harder-than-anyone-remembers-now Bulls/Pacers series in 97 and 98.

Saying "Now, they would switch some and use Pippen to trap some" is like saying the Mona Lisa is a nice picture. Scottie Pippen is arguably the greatest help defender to ever play basketball. Many times the Bulls had Pippen almost exclusively in a type of roaming defense that disrupted the flow of even the best offenses in the league.

And Cedrick Ceballos? GTFO with that trash. You're comparing a guy who was a 3x All NBA First Team, 2x All-NBA Second Team, 7× NBA All-Star, 8× NBA All-Defensive First Team, 2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team and a member of the 50 Greatest Players to a guy that made ONE SINGLE ALL STAR GAME AND OH-WAIT-WE'RE-AT-THE-END-OF-HIS-CAREER-ACCOLADES.

And by the way, if Pippen is so overrated historically, why did he start games for the greatest team ever assembled, the 1992 Dream Team? (He was probably the 3rd best player there behind Jordan and Barkley).

LeBron James is better in every. single. way. than Scottie Pippen ever was. Better defender, better scorer, better rebounder, better passer, better ball handler, better athlete. Pippen was a great player. But there is not a single thing on a basketball court that he could do better than LeBron when he was in his absolute prime.

LeBron is a DPOTY caliber defender that guards all five positions and 30 PER offensive player. The NBA game has not been played before like LeBron is playing it now that he's made LeLeap.[COLOR="Gold"]

I don't disagree that Lebron has far surpassed Pippen in most every area as an offensive player. But he's not a better defender. Sorry.

Pippen also guarded 5 positions, and even counting the seasons at the end of his career into his averages where he was 40 years old, Pippen still averaged more steals than Lebron over the course of his career and more blocks as well.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 11:07 AM

Pippen also guarded 5 positions, and even counting the seasons at the end of his career into his averages where he was 40 years old, Pippen still averaged more steals than Lebron over the course of his career and more blocks as well.

I think Lebron is at least Pippen's equivalent on defense. And Pippen was never (except in '94), his team's most important offensive player. What Lebron does on defense is insane considering that every other player of Lebron's offensive stature (aside from Jordan) tended to "rest" on defense.

stevemcqueen1

July-19th-2012, 11:07 AM

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 11:16 AM

I think some consideration should be made for the fact Dr. J's impact on the NBA was so profound. If we're talking about the greatest players in pro basketball history, he's certainly on the short list. I think him and Michael Jordan are the two most important players in NBA history as they had more of an effect in shaping the game today than anybody else. Dr. J was a pioneer. You have to acknowledge that there were things people just didn't do before him, nobody had thought of them before. The reverse layup, double clutches, the "slam" dunk, etc. He basically invented the modern slashing wing. His greatness goes beyond the numbers and x, y, and z skills.

If the question is "most important" players in NBA history, he's easily top five. It's Jordan, Larry, Magic, Doc and Wilt and I'm not sure there is an argument for anyone else.

I'm just saying that as a pure basketball player - particularly once he got to the NBA - he was over-rated. The year he won a title with the Sixers, I think he was the third best player on the team.

I'm not sure this is his fault though. Playing in the ABA did his game absolutely no favors aside from helping him build his "coolness."

The ABA is sort of amazing. I was way too young to have any real memories of it, but it defintely was a cultural force. My cousin who was three years older than me had an outdoor hoop and a Red, White, and Blue basketball. He was the coolest person on earth because of that.

I had a Pop-O-Matic basketball game that I'm 99 percent sure was ABA themed. I'm pretty sure I got it AFTER the merger. My father must have got it on a discount rack.

I agree with LKB though that many of Dr. J's greatest achievements and additions to the game came when the nation wasn't really watching. The VA Squires were a purely regional franchise. I actually live about 5 minutes from Norfolk Scope and pass by it every day. What I wouldn't give to be able to time travel back 40 years and walk into that Arena and see Dr. J and George Gervin play.

I imagine you could have sat courtside for, like, four bucks.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 11:41 AM

My point was his stats didn't drop when MJ retired, they went up. Slightly but they did.

My point is the drive to be a Michael Jordan, a Larry Bird, a Magic Johnson, a Tim Duncan or an Hakeem is different than the will to be a McHale, Worthy, or Pipen. It's one thing to will yourself to win and raise the play of everyone around you; it's something else to be a piece of a winning franchise... A great player who's play and accomplishments are elevated by playing with a generational great player. A guy who is self motivated to sacrifice to become a champion.

When the lakers lost Kareem and Magic had to play center, dude scores 40 pts and has a triple double playing out of position...
When Keven McHale set a Celtics scoring record with 56 points in 85, ( bird had like 14 assists )... Bird told him he should have gone for 60... Bird came back 5 days later and dropped 60 on Atlanta. Two of the hawks players were so impressed they fell off the bench when Bird drained a three with two hawk defenders draped all over him.
When Jordan went for 63 against the Celtics, or Jordan having the highest playoff scoring record ever..

The ability to will yourself to win, and lift your game... not very many people have it.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 12:54 PM ----------

I'm just saying that as a pure basketball player - particularly once he got to the NBA - he was over-rated. The year he won a title with the Sixers, I think he was the third best player on the team..

Dr. J won the NBA Championship in 1983
He was first team all NBA that season
He was the all star game MVP that season
and he was two seasons removed from his League MVP season in 81.

I'm sorry how exactly can you claim an 11 time NBA all star, ( not including 3 time ABA all star ) was over rated? Just throw it out there?.

Sticksboi05

July-19th-2012, 12:13 PM

My point is the drive to be a Michael Jordan, a Larry Bird, a Magic Johnson, a Tim Duncan or an Hakeem is different than the will to be a McHale, Worthy, or Pipen. It's one thing to will yourself to win and raise the play of everyone around you; it's something else to be a piece of a winning franchise... A great player who's play and accomplishments are elevated by playing with a generational great player. A guy who is self motivated to sacrifice to become a champion.

This is all true but my point had nothing to do with any of that, just that he was a very good basketball player in his own right is all.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 12:18 PM

This is all true but my point had nothing to do with any of that, just that he was a very good basketball player in his own right is all.

I didn't say he wasn't. I had him on my top 5 small forwards of all time ahead of Lebron at this point in his career. I'm just saying If he hadn't been on Jordan's team, he wouldn't have been on six champion teams and wouldn't have been one of the top 5 small forwards ever.

Again my list was

Larry Bird
Julius Erving
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Scottie Pippen

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 01:23 PM ----------

I think Lebron is at least Pippen's equivalent on defense. And Pippen was never (except in '94), his team's most important offensive player. What Lebron does on defense is insane considering that every other player of Lebron's offensive stature (aside from Jordan) tended to "rest" on defense.

Lebron has 1 championship, 0 without Wade.
Pippen has 6 championships...

Lebron is one season away from people thinking he was a goat... not the G.O.A.T, but a goat. A guy who rolled over and played dead on his franchise.
I'm sorry Lebron needs a another seasons like last season to get on this list, or 3-4 more championships... After the 2010 playoffs he really needs to perform for a few years to get that stink off his name. Have you ever heard of anybody on the above list giving up on there team or rolling over and playing dead?

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 12:24 PM

I'm sorry how exactly can you claim an 11 time NBA all star, ( not including 3 time ABA all star ) was over rated? Just throw it out there?.

You are really obsessed with all-star appearances. I don't put much stock in them. I also don't think he deserved the '81 MVP. I think you could make a case for Bird or Moses that year.

I think he was over-rated because I don't think you could win an NBA title with him as the best player on your team. And even if he made All-NBA first team, he was not the best player on the team. Moses (the MVP) was. And - to this day - I still fear that Andrew Toney is going to sneak into my bedroom in the middle of the night and score 35 points on me. Andrew Toney had no conscience.

That 1983 season was like a victory lap for Doc. Everyone was so happy for him being on that great a team that they just sort of gave him every honor you could think of. Even though Doc was on one of the NBA's all time great teams that year, the gap between him and Bird had already grown to a chasm that year. (Bird put up a 24/11/6).

There's a 5 percent chance this happens with Steve Nash next year by the way.

I think we remember Doc for moments more than for his body of work (at least in the NBA). He was a great player. He helped create the modern game. (Though David Thompson always gets forgotten in these discussions...except - weirdly - when the utterly unsentimental Michael Jordan starts talking). But he had a fair number of holes in his game that guys like Lebron, Bird, and Barry don't have.

He was better than Wilkins (who I hate) but he had some of Wilkins flaws. If he wasn't scoring, he wasn't going to help you a lot. And if he wasn't getting to the rim, he didn't score easily.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 12:31 PM

You are really obsessed with all-star appearances. I don't put much stock in them. I also don't think he deserved the '81 MVP. I think you could make a case for Bird or Moses that year.

I'm obsessed with Championships.. because I heard somewhere that that is why people play the game. That is the objective. In the absense of Championships, I do go on the opinion of their peers and those who watched the players closest in any given year... which means all-star apperances, and league leading metrics.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 12:37 PM

I'm obsessed with Championships.. because I heard somewhere that that is why people play the game. That is the objective. In the absense of Championships, I do go on the opinion of their peers and those who watched the players closest in any given year... which means all-star apperances, and league leading metrics.

But you don't have Lebron in the top five even though he's already surpassed or tied Doc by every metric you can imagine. (Unless you are equating ABA titles with NBA titles).

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 12:50 PM ----------

PS

The two most over-hyped performances in NBA history are

1. Magic playing center in the '80 Finals, and
2. Jordan's 63-point game.

1. Magic was a center during the opening tip and a few other points during the game. Jim Chones actually played the majority of the minutes at center. Actually, calling it over-rated is not fair, because Magic was awesome in that game. But it's rated highly for the wrong reasons. It also in that weird place with the Miracle on Ice. Everyone seems to think the Miracle on Ice game was for the Gold Medal and everyone seems to think that Magic's "game at center" was Game 7.

2. Jordan scored 63 points in a double over time game in which he took 41 shots and 21 free throws in 53 minutes. A game his team lost in a series in which his 50-loss team was swept. I mean, it was kind of amazing but he barely shot 50 percent in that game. That was more a test of endurance than actual basketball skill.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 12:51 PM

I think he was over-rated because I don't think you could win an NBA title with him as the best player on your team.

And yet he won 2 play off MVP's and 2 titles with the ABA which you discount.

I think we remember Doc for moments more than for his body of work (at least in the NBA). He was a great player. He helped create the modern game. (Though David Thompson always gets forgotten in these discussions...except - weirdly - when the utterly unsentimental Michael Jordan starts talking). But he had a fair number of holes in his game that guys like Lebron, Bird, and Barry don't have.

He was better than Wilkins (who I hate) but he had some of Wilkins flaws. If he wasn't scoring, he wasn't going to help you a lot. And if he wasn't getting to the rim, he didn't score easily.

Well he's top 5 scoring all time, so I would argue he did pretty well...

I would also note you love Wilt Chamberlain, who is guilty of everything you are accusing Dr. J of. Wilt won 1 championship in his prime and only then because they scoured the league for an all star team to get past the Celtics.. Wilt who was refereed to throughout his career matter of factually as LOOSER, and SELFISH, cause he lost to the Celtics so many times in big games, and serially padded his stats..... lost like 8 or 9 series to the Celtics only winning 1... Then of coarse he went to the Lakers, winning again in 72 when he was almost in a wheel chair posting his career lowest scoring average and they gave him the finals MVP. Not because he was good, but because Wilt 7'1" could out perform 6'8" Jerry Lucus on an injury depleted NY team. Wilt was out of the league in 73.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 01:00 PM

I would also note you love Wilt Chamberlain, who is guilty of everything you are accusing Dr. J of.

Huh? No, I don't.

I had him in my top five because you kind of have to. I also said that I don't think I would ever draft or sign him.

(Predicto loves Wilt. But Predicto is from San Franciso and may be one of Wilt's 20,000. Predicto and I disagree on Wilt and agree on Rick Barry).

Dan T.

July-19th-2012, 01:13 PM

PS

The two most over-hyped performances in NBA history are

1. Magic playing center in the '80 Finals, and
2. Jordan's 63-point game.

I would put Willis Reed limping onto the floor at Madison Square Garden against the Lakers in game 7 of the NBA Finals in 1970 up there. The Knicks won the game. Reed scored 4 points. Did he inspire his team? Sure. But Reed's appearance has taken on mythic New York proportions in the retelling. Clyde Frazier's 36 points and 19 assists had a little something to do with the win too.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 01:14 PM

But you don't have Lebron in the top five even though he's already surpassed or tied Doc by every metric you can imagine. (Unless you are equating ABA titles with NBA titles).

I do count ABA statistics because Dr. J was arguable the greatest Basketball player alive during that period, which means he has 3 championships to Lebron's 1, 4 MVP's, and 16 all star appearances.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 12:50 PM ----------

[/COLOR]PS

1. Magic playing center in the '80 Finals, and
2. Jordan's 63-point game.

1. Magic was a center during the opening tip and a few other points during the game. Jim Chones actually played the majority of the minutes at center. Actually, calling it over-rated is not fair, because Magic was awesome in that game. But it's rated highly for the wrong reasons. It also in that weird place with the Miracle on Ice. Everyone seems to think the Miracle on Ice game was for the Gold Medal and everyone seems to think that Magic's "game at center" was Game 7.

:doh: Stop it... now you are just being silly..
Over rated, but Magic was awesome? Arguable the greatest game of Magics career, over-rated?

In game 6, Magic Johnson played what may have been the greatest game of his career. Playing on the road in Philadelphia, Magic (a 6'9" point guard) started the game at center and eventually played all 5 positions in a dominating performance. Scoring a game-high 42 points and grabbing a game-high 15 rebounds—and handing out 7 assists—Magic Johnson led the Lakers to the NBA crown. The Lakers also received strong performances from Jamaal Wilkes with 37 points, and Norm Nixon. Jim Chones played strong defense on 76er center Darryl Dawkins, while Mark Landsberger provided rebounding off the bench, and little used Brad Holland chipped in 8 key points.

Magic Johnson's performance in game 6 and the series earned him the 1980 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player. What made Magic Johnson's performance even more remarkable was that he was an NBA rookie—and, indeed, one who had left college after only two years, and was only 20 years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_NBA_Finals

2. Jordan scored 63 points in a double over time game in which he took 41 shots and 21 free throws in 53 minutes. A game his team lost in a series in which his 50-loss team was swept. I mean, it was kind of amazing but he barely shot 50 percent in that game. That was more a test of endurance than actual basketball skill.

OMG! Jordan played 18 games that year, breaking his foot in game 3 of the season. The bulls wanted him to sit out the rest of the season but he insisted on coming back late in the year. His performance was one of the most gutsy performances ever. Dropping a playoff record 63 points on one of the greatest NBA teams in history, at the Boston Garden.... His record still stands!

Larry Bird said.. "I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us,", "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

That was Jordan's second season in the league. If that was not an example of someone lifting his game to rise to a challenge I don't know what is....

Both of these performances displayed what made each player so freaking special. If Lebron was in the finals and Karem was hurt... we know what he would do... He would roll over and play dead!!! We know it because he's done it! Magic scores 42, grabs 15 boards and earns the finals MVP playing every position, AS A ROOKIE... Hell in Jordan's position Lebron doesn't even dress! He's done that too.

Both of those games displayed in a microcosm what made Magic and Jordan special. Lifting their games when nobody thought they could.. Hell and I don't even like either all that much; I'm a Celtics fan too.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 01:30 PM

It probably was the best game of Magic's career, but it is remembered for the wrong reasons. That's my point.

I'm being super nuanced here.

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 01:32 PM ----------

Clyde Frazier's 36 points and 19 assists had a little something to do with the win too.

I agree with that.

However, I bet Clyde had no less than five naked European stewardesses in his bed that night. So...he was rewarded.

Sticksboi05

July-19th-2012, 01:40 PM

63 against the '86 Celtics is 63 against the '86 Celtics no matter how you look at it. And the '86 Bulls were a one-man team. Pippen wasn't there yet.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-19th-2012, 01:43 PM

63 against the '86 Celtics is 63 against the '86 Celtics no matter how you look at it. And the '86 Bulls were a one-man team. Pippen wasn't there yet.

I know. It's a ****load of points.

I just think Jordan had 20 more impressive games where he didn't take 40 shots.

JMS

July-19th-2012, 01:44 PM

It probably was the best game of Magic's career, but it is remembered for the wrong reasons. That's my point.

I'm being super nuanced here.

You really aren't. I used three performances to illustrate what made Larry, Magic and Michael such awsome players. Specifically saying it was the ability to lift their games and rise to an occasion. I gave those examples of them achieving this in spectacular fashion. Your response was nonsensical because you evidently missed what I was saying.

And I still find you guilty on Wilt. He doesn't belong on the all time great list. He was a top 5 great talent (maybe 1), not a top 5 great player or competitor.

( Crap, I hate it when I get on a roll and loose my perspective... I put Wilt on my top 5.. :doh:,,, You had him I think 4 and I put him 5, So I guess in retrospect I'm being too hard on you, and Wilt... Although I do find my arguements in this thread more persuasive than my post on the Center's thread.. :) )...

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 02:47 PM ----------

I know. It's a ****load of points.

I just think Jordan had 20 more impressive games where he didn't take 40 shots.

That was Jordan's most impresive game when you put it in perspective.. I'm sorry you are still talking out of your butt.

Second year in the league, hurt all year, comes back anyway, basically goes one on 5 with arguable the best starting 5 in the history of franchised sports on the road; dropping in a NBA playoff record 63 points and nearly wins in double overtime.... Are you kidding me?

Sticksboi05

July-19th-2012, 01:57 PM

I know. It's a ****load of points.

I just think Jordan had 20 more impressive games where he didn't take 40 shots.

I agree he's had more impressive games. Putting the team on his back in 1998 in Game 6 was more impressive. His FG% was subpar but Pippen could barely play so it was him and role players. The final minute, the defensive play on Malone trapping him in the corner and stealing the ball, is almost more impressive than the go-ahead crossover shot.

JMS

July-20th-2012, 09:57 PM

I bump theee!

AsiaticSkinsFan

July-20th-2012, 10:03 PM

MLSKINS

July-20th-2012, 10:04 PM

I was wondering where I was at when this debate took place on Thursday. I wasn't at work... I was at home sleep. :silly:

So since I wasn't there in the heat of the moment, I am going to take the punk way out and say I agree with all of you. :D

AsiaticSkinsFan

July-20th-2012, 10:08 PM

Worthy was good. But he had the easiest job of any small forward in NBA history. As I pointed out on another thread, I am no fan of Dominique. But if all Dominique had to do for ten years was be a finisher on fast breaks with Magic, we would consider him one of the ten greatest players ever. If Worthy ends up in Atlanta, he makes maybe two or three All Star teams as Bird's backup. Worthy had a very good career and one transcedent game. Let's not go crazy about him.
well thats sad because a) that is a great skill in and of itself b)he did A LOT more than that c) the Lakers probably dont play great transition ball without Worthy. He was as big a reason for that as Magic.

Worthy was a GREAT low post scorer. Dennis Rodman said he was the toughest player he ever had to guard because of all the moves he had in the post and how quick his first step was. That and he could take you in the low post, high post, and had a great jump shot. The post 1985 Lakers needed Worthy to score a lot in the post in important moments because of Kareem's decline.

Before Worthy started having his own injuries, he was the Lakers most reliable low post scorer in the late 80s.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 11:11 PM ----------

I would take Worthy over a guy like Pippen any day of the week too

JMS

July-20th-2012, 10:35 PM

Jordan's 63 points against Boston was not the most impressive game of his career

he has had more. I would say Jordan putting up 50 against Charlotte back in 2001 was more impressive.

You mean 51 in 2002 with the Wizards?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-29-wizards-hornets.htm

Why is scoring 50 against a team history won't remember during the regular season; more impressive than dropping 63 on one of the best teams in NBA history, during the playoffs.?

And just to note, the reason why Jordan was so impressive wasn't just that he set an NBA playoff scoring record. It's that if he were any other player he wouldnt' have even dressed. It's that Jordan had no reason to show up, no reason to bust his butt. He knew his team wasn't going anywhere escpecially against the best team in the league that year in the first round of the playoffs. That Jordan was even on the court after breaking his foot in game 3 of that season and only returning to the roster basically for that series over the objections of his team is what iwas so freaking impressive.

Lebron has 1 champtionship. 1 finals mvp, 4 league mvp's .
Bird has 3 champtionships 2 finals mvp. 3 league mvp's
Dr J has 3 championships, and 4 League mvp's.

AsiaticSkinsFan

July-20th-2012, 10:57 PM

You mean 51 in 2002 with the Wizards?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/games/2001-12-29-wizards-hornets.htm

Why is scoring 50 against a team history won't remember during the regular season; more impressive than dropping 63 on one of the best teams in NBA history, during the playoffs.?
I meant the 51 he scored in 2001

because he was 38 years old. He scored 51 in that game, 2 nights after that game he scored 45 against the Nets. Did it on over 50% shooting too.

And just to note, the reason why Jordan was so impressive wasn't just that he set an NBA playoff scoring record. It's that if he were any other player he wouldnt' have even dressed. It's that Jordan had no reason to show up, no reason to bust his butt. He knew his team wasn't going anywhere escpecially against the best team in the league that year in the first round of the playoffs. That Jordan was even on the court after breaking his foot in game 3 of that season and only returning to the roster basically for that series over the objections of his team is what iwas so freaking impressive.
no offense, but this feels like it came out of an ESPN radio personalities mouth.

It was very impressive, but its not the most impressive game in his career. 55 against the Knicks 17 days after coming back from a 2 year lay off was more impressive to me.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

July-21st-2012, 08:30 AM

It was very impressive, but its not the most impressive game in his career. 55 against the Knicks 17 days after coming back from a 2 year lay off was more impressive to me.

That was insane. He was nowhere close to basketball shape.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 01:45 PM

So....we all agree that Lebron is #1 now, right?

MLSKINS

April-17th-2013, 01:49 PM

So....we all agree that Lebron is #1 now, right?

I want to put Lebron #1 because I do believe he is the better player, but I have to see more.

Well I have seen all I needed to see. He is number one. Forget top 5 Small Forwards. If he wins the next two titles I'll put him behind Jordan and Kareem.

Predicto

April-17th-2013, 01:57 PM

So....we all agree that Lebron is #1 now, right?

I certainly do.

Dr. Do Itch Big

April-17th-2013, 01:57 PM

Well I have seen all I needed to see. He is number one. Forget top 5 Small Forwards. If he wins the next two titles I'll put him behind Jordan and Kareem.

What would he have to do to rank number 1?

Predicto

April-17th-2013, 02:00 PM

What would he have to do to rank number 1?

Retire.

Only after you are completely done with your career can you be fairly ranked against the all time greats, IMO.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 02:03 PM

What would he have to do to rank number 1?

Another season like this one would have him in the discussion for #2. And I honestly think he is just entering his prime. He may have 3 or 4 more seasons like this. If he does that, he's right in MJ's area.

DCranon21

April-17th-2013, 02:06 PM

So....we all agree that Lebron is #1 now, right?

You have no argument from me. He's clearly #1.

Kotemah

April-17th-2013, 02:10 PM

LeBron
Bird
Baylor
Pippin
Dr. J

JMS

April-17th-2013, 02:51 PM

Lebron is the best small forward in the game right now..... not the best small forward ever based upon his career. I value championships, so lebron could certainly climb with a few more of them.

Julius Erving

- member of three NBA/ABA championship teams
- four-time NBA/ABA MVP
- 16-time NBA/ABA All-Star
- 12-time All-NBA/ABA selection
- one-time ABA All-Defensive Team selection
- fifth all-time in field goals made in NBA/ABA history
- seventh all-time in steals in NBA/ABA history
- fifth all-time in points in NBA/ABA history

Bird

- member of three championship teams
- 10th all-time in free throw % in NBA history
- three-time NBA MVP
- NBA Rookie of the Year
- two-time NBA Finals MVP
- 12-time NBA All-Star
- three-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection

John Havlicek

- member of eight NBA championship teams
- NBA Finals MVP
- 11-time All-NBA selection
- eight-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection
- 13-time NBA All-Star
- ninth all-time in field goals made in NBA history

Elgin Baylor

- fourth all-time in points per game in NBA history
- ninth all-time in rebounds per game in NBA history
- 11-time NBA All-Star
- NBA Rookie of the Year
- 10-time All-NBA selection

Lebron James

- 1x NBA CHampionship
- 1x NBA Finals MVP
- 3x NBA Most Valuable Player
- 9× NBA All-Star
- 1 NBA scoring champion
- 4x NBA All-Defensive First Team
Scottie Pippen

- member of six NBA championship teams
- sixth in steals in NBA history
- seven-time NBA All-Star
- 10-time NBA All-Defensive Team selection
- seven-time All-NBA selection

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 02:54 PM

Lebron is the best small forward in the game right now..... not the best small forward ever based upon his career. I value championships, so lebron could certainly climb with a few more of them.

How did Lebron pass Scottie Pippen on your list without winning another title? Nothing has changed on that front since we had this discussion in June.

Why did you betray Scottie!?!?!?!?!?!?

I'm also amused by the fact that the 2nd item on Bird's resume is his lifetime FT percentage. That is so bloody random.

JMS

April-17th-2013, 02:58 PM

Another season like this one would have him in the discussion for #2. And I honestly think he is just entering his prime. He may have 3 or 4 more seasons like this. If he does that, he's right in MJ's area.

In order to be compared to Jordan he would have to have comparable championships, scoring titles, and defensive awards.....

Let's say he wins the Championship this year, and next..... He still wouldn't be approaching Jordan would he?
but he would be approaching Dr. J and Larry.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 04:03 PM ----------

How did Lebron pass Scottie Pippen on your list without winning another title? Nothing has changed on that front since we had this discussion in June.

Why did you betray Scottie!?!?!?!?!?!?

I re-evaluated... Lebron is having a good year.... and I'm weighing his 3 mvp's and possible 4 against Scotties 6 championships as a complement to Jordan.....

I'm also amused by the fact that the 2nd item on Bird's resume is his lifetime FT percentage. That is so bloody random.

I think being an awsome FT percentage is pretty meaningful and goes to how clutch a player you are...
But you are correct I didn't rank my positives much beyond championships.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 03:04 PM

In order to be compared to Jordan he would have to have comparable championships, scoring titles, and defensive awards.....

No.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 03:08 PM ----------

Lebron is having a good year

You could say that.

Here: This will have you scrambling on the Google Machine for a few hours.

"Lebron James is currently completing one of the three greatest post-merger seasons."

Go....go on, boy....Git it....Git it......

MLSKINS

April-17th-2013, 03:20 PM

What would he have to do to rank number 1?

If he continues the pace he is on right now and finish with 5 rings, I'll put him number one.

Honestly, I am only 24. I never seen Kareem play, I caught Jordan at the tail end of his prime. Right now, Lebron is the best player I have ever seen.

But I won't ignore just how great Jordan and Kareem were. Right now, they are the only two I will put over Lebron based on what I know.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 03:27 PM

I
Honestly, I am only 24. I never seen Kareem play.

Eh...you didn't miss much.

That's not fair. Kareem was amazing. But, so boring. And when he wasn't boring, he was annoying.

I think I said earlier in this thread, that there was a brief stretch of time when the greatest small forward ever was Bernard. And there are Knick fans who will never get over the fact that he was at the top of his game for only a few months. I'm kind of that way with Walton. I never saw Walton in his prime (which, like Bernard was only a few months), but my dad was a Walton freak. If you have dinner with him tonight, he might stard randomly discussing the game against Memphis. It's always bugged me that Kareem had an 86-year career with perfect health while Walton got about 18 months.

Kosher Ham

April-17th-2013, 03:34 PM

Yet there are many players in any sport that are considered among the best of all time...without any rings, or only one.

Football alone has a ton of them.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 03:40 PM

You
That 1983 season was like a victory lap for Doc. Everyone was so happy for him being on that great a team that they just sort of gave him every honor you could think of. Even though Doc was on one of the NBA's all time great teams that year, the gap between him and Bird had already grown to a chasm that year. (Bird put up a 24/11/6).

There's a 5 percent chance this happens with Steve Nash next year by the way.

Hey, kids. Remember when we thought the Lakers were going to be good?

How young we were.

JMS

April-17th-2013, 04:17 PM

No.
Very illuminating, so championships scoring titles nor longevity are meaningful in your rankings?

You could say that. Here: This will have you scrambling on the Google Machine for a few hours. "Lebron James is currently completing one of the three greatest post-merger seasons."

Go....go on, boy....Git it....Git it......

Like that has never been said of Dr J who was the consensus GOAT
in his time pre Jordan, and Bird too.

Google that....Go....go on, boy....Git it....Git it...... !!

Besides one season is meaningless when discussing all time greats
You must do it over multiple seasons.

It hurts Lebron he couldn't get it done in Cleveland .
At least right now in his accomplishments.

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 04:19 PM

LeBron is the greatest small forward ever but it is fair to question if he can beat the best in his league for championships more than once like Larry Bird did. But in terms of ability and talent he is Larry with exponentially more athleticism, far less shooting prowess and much more individual defense. I think his passing ability is only slightly higher. Bird could make passes on the level of elite point guards. Watching the 1986 NBA Finals was one of the best time-killers in recent memory. Interesting to see how the game was/has changed. It's a shame Bird broke his back by being cheap or we might be talking about a 4-5x NBA champion that would rightfull be placed ahead of Magic on most lists as when both were healthy, Bird was the superior player.

Still, Game 7 NBA Finals, last possession I'll take Bird without thinking twice.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 05:27 PM ----------

But I won't ignore just how great Jordan and Kareem were. Right now, they are the only two I will put over Lebron based on what I know.

There are arguments based on multiple championships. I used to think championships were a waste in these discussions but in this case, and in the case for greats around every sport, when you have a team capable of winning multiple rings like the Miami Heat, they do matter and you have to prove you can beat your top competition repeatedly like your predecessors. Now for guys stuck on crappy teams their entire career, it's different, but on an all-time list, LeBron needs to win championship(s). As far as ability goes, he's probably number 1. Eric Lindros in his prime was probably as talented at hockey as LeBron is at basketball. Built like a tank, could hit, could score, could pass, could do everything and nobody had an answer. What separates him from a guy like Mark Messier is Stanley Cups (granted 5 Cups is tough to match, especially considering Stanley Cups are far more challenging to win than NBA championships) but regardless on an all-time list, nobody would put Lindros over Messier but there is no question who the better hockey player was, injury concerns aside.

MLSKINS

April-17th-2013, 04:30 PM

Yet there are many player in any sport that are considered among the best of all time...without and rings or only one.

Football alone has a ton of them.
You just helped me think of an excellent thread idea. Let's just say it has something to do with the 1991 Detroit Lions team.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 04:41 PM

Very illuminating, so championships scoring titles nor longevity are meaningful in your rankings?

Scoring titles are meaningless. Bird never won a scoring title. Doc never won an NBA scoring title. Lebron did win one and could almost certainly win it every year if he wanted to. He would basically need to take 4 more shots a game. Considering he touches the ball on every possession, that would be easy for him. It would make his team significantly worse though.

Titles are a nice validation. And it's pretty much a fact that every all-time great aside from Barkley and Malone (who is really iffy as an all-time great) have won at least one title. It's nice to put that argument to bed. I fully expect Lebron to finish with three or four.

I can't say that his critics are off, because there really aren't any more critics. But maybe some people don't realize that he is ahead of Michael's pace. Michael won his first title at 28. Lebron is going for #2. Michael had three MVPs. Lebron might be win #4 as a unanimous choice.

Now, true, MJ had fewer years in the league. But Lebron is probably not going to essentially sit out two years to play baseball either.

Lebron is built like Karl Malone and is in incredible shape. He should easily be able to play at a high level into his late 30s. He's got another decade to accumulate really stupid numbers.

(Of course, you seem to think he is 31 years old so I can see why you are confused).

Besides one season is meaningless when discussing all time greats
You must do it over multiple seasons.

Lebron's season last year was comprable with the best seasons MJ or Wilt ever had. This season is better. He is getting better.

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 04:54 PM

Scoring titles are meaningless. Bird never won a scoring title. Doc never won an NBA scoring title. Lebron did win one and could almost certainly win it every year if he wanted to. He would basically need to take 4 more shots a game. Considering he touches the ball on every possession, that would be easy for him. It would make his team significantly worse though.

Titles are a nice validation. And it's pretty much a fact that every all-time great aside from Barkley and Malone (who is really iffy as an all-time great) have won at least one title. It's nice to put that argument to bed. I fully expect Lebron to finish with three or four.

I can't say that his critics are off, because there really aren't any more critics. But maybe some people don't realize that he is ahead of Michael's pace. Michael won his first title at 28. Lebron is going for #2. Michael had three MVPs. Lebron might be win #4 as a unanimous choice.

Now, true, MJ had fewer years in the league. But Lebron is probably not going to essentially sit out two years to play baseball either.

MJ won 5 MVPs but let's be real he deserved a few more. When you put up 32.5 8 and 8 a game and don't win, the voters are a little cooky. Bill Walton said during one broadcast on ESPN that he deserved probably eight MVPs or so. But the 6 Finals MVPs stand out far more. Everyone obsesses over regular season numbers but really when talking about players this good, having a PER minimally higher doesn't really matter, the result is the same, you help your team win 60 games or so. What matters is how you perform in the quest to win championships. LeBron doesn't need any more super seasons to prove his natural ability is likely the greatest ever but to be "the man in 6 championship teams" in 8 seasons says something far more than 5 MVPs voted on by a bunch of writers. The NBA MVP award is only marginally more relevant than the NHL Hart Trophy which due to its wording really makes it hard to quantify. As of right now, in a playoff series I would take MJ over LeBron both at age 28. That may change down the road but proving a sort of killer instinct one playoff run doesn't put you above other greats just yet.

And yes, the scoring title is incredibly irrelevant. Cannot agree with you more.

Wrong Direction

April-17th-2013, 05:01 PM

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 05:07 PM

I should have probably read the whole thread, but I didn't. I know Lebron's defense is mentioned, but I'm not sure it's fully appreciated. He's a defensive game changer along the lines of Hakeem. I'm not sure there's ever been a defender like Lebron. Jordan's defense was as clutch as the rest of his game, but I don't even think Jordan had the possession by possession affect that Lebron does on his entire team.

I don't like Lebron's offensive game as much as others do, but I think his defense elevates him more than anyone else on any list.

LeBron's offense is athleticism-based. I don't see him as a Mario Lemieux type where even after you lose your athletic ability, you still outproduce the league exponentially. And yes he is an incredible defender. Basically Scottie Pippen beefed up and taller.

MLSKINS

April-17th-2013, 05:12 PM

I didn't like Lebron's offensive game at first, but it seems to me that he has now let things come to him instead of trying to force stuff. He is crazy efficient to me. I mean at times he does make plays that make you go :wtf: but overall he is a better passer, better facilitator, and way better shooter than he was a couple of years ago.

The reason I am giving so much props to this dude is because he has done pretty much everything I wanted to see him do. That man was faking.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 06:15 PM ----------

LeBron's offense is athleticism-based. I don't see him as a Mario Lemieux type where even after you lose your athletic ability, you still outproduce the league exponentially. And yes he is an incredible defender. Basically Scottie Pippen beefed up and taller.
I don't know sticks. I think when he gets older, he would still be able to shoot and pass. If it's one thing I think Lebron doesn't get credit for is his knowledge of the game. You can have all the athleticism you want, you gotta know how to use it. Same could be said for Shaq.

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 05:27 PM

I didn't like Lebron's offensive game at first, but it seems to me that he has now let things come to him instead of trying to force stuff. He is crazy efficient to me. I mean at times he does make plays that make you go :wtf: but overall he is a better passer, better facilitator, and way better shooter than he was a couple of years ago.

The reason I am giving so much props to this dude is because he has done pretty much everything I wanted to see him do. That man was faking.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 06:15 PM ----------

I don't know sticks. I think when he gets older, he would still be able to shoot and pass. If it's one thing I think Lebron doesn't get credit for is his knowledge of the game. You can have all the athleticism you want, you gotta know how to use it. Same could be said for Shaq.

LeBron does use it. How many points does he get from people moving out of the way because efforts to stop a 6'8 250 lb man at full speed is futile? It's a big chunk of his points. It's why his FG%'s are so high. Once he realized to stop shooting and start getting points in the paint, that's when he became unstoppable.

I don't doubt he has high basketball IQ. His IQ is part of why he passes so much in late game situations. He'd rather make the right play than take it himself. But he still lives off being a freak athlete as he should for as long as his athleticism lasts.

Kosher Ham

April-17th-2013, 05:38 PM

You just helped me think of an excellent thread idea. Let's just say it has something to do with the 1991 Detroit Lions team.

And if I could only have proofread my post. :doh:

I am looking forward to your topic.

Kotemah

April-17th-2013, 05:41 PM

LeBron does use it. How many points does he get from people moving out of the way because efforts to stop a 6'8 250 lb man at full speed is futile? It's a big chunk of his points. It's why his FG%'s are so high. Once he realized to stop shooting and start getting points in the paint, that's when he became unstoppable.

I don't doubt he has high basketball IQ. His IQ is part of why he passes so much in late game situations. He'd rather make the right play than take it himself. But he still lives off being a freak athlete as he should for as long as his athleticism lasts.

I can see where you are coming from but the guy is shooting 40+% from three. The guy is a threat to shoot now, he doesnt only drive. Granted, majority of his points come from buckets in the paint, but he creates everything for him self and his team mates. Plus, he's gradually getting better and better at shooting, so by the time he loses his athleticism, which WONT be any time soon, he will be a polished post scorer and jumpshooter.

As far as the argument that LeBron needs championships to be better than other players, there isnt one. LeBron is already the best small forward ever. Especially after this season. Bill Russel has 11 championships but that doesnt make him the best center of all time. Certainly it puts him up there but i dont believe many people would put him as the GOAT for Centers, let alone, GOAT. I just believe the championship argument is played out.

Jordan definitely deserved to have at least 3 or MORE MVPs lol people just got bored of voting for him over and over (which i think is stupid, the most valuable player should win the award, no matter how many he has one.) There could definitely be an argument made for LeBron winning it when Derrick Rose won it. Go look at the numbers. But since Chicago had the best record, and the fact that people wanted to see someone else win it, Rose won.

What LeBron is doing is ridiculous. People undervalue his play because of the championship argument but thats stupid. They said he would never win a championship. He did. People said he would never have that killer instict. He does. People said he could never be the leader of the Heat. He is. Considering how much he has improved this season, after what he did last season, its not even close.

JMS

April-17th-2013, 05:46 PM

If he continues the pace he is on right now and finish with 5 rings, I'll put him number one.

Number one at his position.... not #1 all time.. not with 5 rings and say 5 MVP trophies... and lets say 2 or 3 scoring titles... That wouldn't get him #1 overall.

But I won't ignore just how great Jordan and Kareem were. Right now, they are the only two I will put over Lebron based on what I know.

Bill Russel would be in that conversation too I'd imagine..

11× NBA champion
5× NBA Most Valuable Player
5× NBA rebounding champion
12× NBA All-Star

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 05:53 PM

What LeBron is doing is ridiculous. People undervalue his play because of the championship argument but thats stupid. They said he would never win a championship. He did. People said he would never have that killer instict. He does. People said he could never be the leader of the Heat. He is. Considering how much he has improved this season, after what he did last season, its not even close.

But you're misjudging my argument. Championships do matter. Performing in the clutch is what separates greats from legends in literally every sport. MJ's 6 Finals MVPs are far more notable than his 5 regular-season MVP's. If you completely ignore this facet than it just becomes 90% who is the best athlete. That'd be boring. LeBron has improved his shooting but he, as you said, is primarily unstoppable because of his size. I have already said in terms of natural ability he's as good as anyone who has played. But you still have to show up when it counts more than once in a game like basketball where the greats almost always find themselves on contending teams. He had a great playoff run last year, now let's see him do it again(which personally, I see no reason why he won't). I am hoping for Spurs, Heat in the Finals. OKC cannot succeed playing anything but a fast paced game which plays right into Miami/LeBron's hand. San Antonio has experience, great defense, the best coach in the NBA and can play up and down or half-court. They are the only real threat I see in the West.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 06:02 PM

But you're misjudging my argument. Championships do matter. Performing in the clutch is what separates greats from legends in literally every sport. MJ's 6 Finals MVPs are far more notable than his 5 regular-season MVP's.

Maybe Lebron is better in the "clutch" than MJ. At this point in their careers, MJ had led his team to one Finals. Lebron has been there three times. MJ never elevated a team as bad as that Cavs' team to the Finals. Lebron has had some shaky playoff games, but so did Magic - who pretty much single-handidly killed the Lakers' title chances in '84.

Everyone seems to forget how criticized MJ was early on his career. It was a drumbeat that "He has to learn that he can't win a title all by himself."

He was lucky to go through this part of his career before the 24/7 coverage of today.

Can you imagine the blogosphere's reaction to the '85 All Star Game? Good God.

Kotemah

April-17th-2013, 06:04 PM

But you're misjudging my argument. Championships do matter. Performing in the clutch is what separates greats from legends in literally every sport. MJ's 6 Finals MVPs are far more notable than his 5 regular-season MVP's. If you completely ignore this facet than it just becomes 90% who is the best athlete. That'd be boring. LeBron has improved his shooting but he, as you said, is primarily unstoppable because of his size. I have already said in terms of natural ability he's as good as anyone who has played. But you still have to show up when it counts more than once in a game like basketball where the greats almost always find themselves on contending teams. He had a great playoff run last year, now let's see him do it again(which personally, I see no reason why he won't). I am hoping for Spurs, Heat in the Finals. OKC cannot succeed playing anything but a fast paced game which plays right into Miami/LeBron's hand. San Antonio has experience, great defense, the best coach in the NBA and can play up and down or half-court. They are the only real threat I see in the West.

Oh im not saying they dont matter. Championships do matter, but I dont think they matter as much as you are saying they do. Thats why I brought up the Bill Russel fact. I agree Finals MVPs mean more than regular season MVPs. LeBron is only 28, and has one Finals MVP just like Jordan. He's on his way to his 4th regular season MVP. But I agree he has to do it again and again and again, but he doesnt need 6 finals MVPs to be as good as jordan, IMO. He's transcending the game just as Jordan did when he played.

But still, I think after this season, and all his accomplishments from last season, included with what he has already done (breaking scoring records, random streaks he's had etc.), he's the best small forward in the game. It can be argued that it is closer than I think it is because I think he is hands down the best SF ever, but still, I believe he has already accomplished being the best SF.

JMS

April-17th-2013, 06:14 PM

Yet there are many players in any sport that are considered among the best of all time...without any rings, or only one.

Football alone has a ton of them.

Couple of thoughts...
Football is so specialized... 11 players exclusively play offense, and 11 players exclusively play defense... and then you have 30 players who substitute in.... Great football players don't have to do everything... Hell they don't have to do most things.. They are so specialized it's possible too boil down their worth in most cases on the merits of two or three stats per position....

Football players also have a much harder time dominating than basketball greats.. Payton Manning / Tom Brady are two of the most dominant players at the most important position in football; yet they still only play what less than half the game, and half the time they are in they might just hand the ball off to a running back or make a short throw anybody could make.... They don't play defense or special teams.... They can dominate at every aspect of their game and that might still not be enough to win if they aren't supported by both other offensive performances (o-line, RB, WR's etc) and their defenses of coarse.

Basketball isn't like that. In basketball a guy like Bird, Lebron, or Dr Jay will play 40-44 minutes of a 48 minute game. They play offense defense and special teams... they have to have all the skills; and if they don't... if they have a weakness then other teams can exploit that weakness and they have to be even more dominant at their other skills to overcome that weakness......

So a guy could be one of the greatest scorers of all time, and be a liability to his team if he can't pass, can't rebound, can't hit foul shots, can't defend, can't make good decisions around the ball, or can't get motivated or motivate his team. Nobody has the complete package... everybody has flaws in their game, but who can best mask their flaws and put their strengths against the opponents weeknesses... In the NBA the metric for that stat is championships...

That is not true in the NFL... In the NFL the portfolio of talents necessary are smaller cause the positions are mosre specialized, and the coach really controls how you are used, sending new plays in every down both on offense and defense...

I mean hell do you even care what Payton Manning's 40 time is?

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 07:22 PM ----------

Lebron is Larry with exponentially more athleticism.

No he's not... He's Lebron. And yes he is exponentially more athletic... but there were many small forwards in the league who were exponentially more athletic than Bird even in Birds day. What makes Bird special is he figured out how to beat them anyway. Bird could beat you in many ways.... We will know if Lebron is better than Bird if Lebron win's a few more Championships. If he can lead, and overcome consistantly over several seasons to win it all... That's why they play the game, and that's how we should judge them.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 07:26 PM

No he's not... He's Lebron. And yes he is exponentially more athletic... but there were many small forwards in the league who were exponentially more athletic than Bird even in Birds day. What makes Bird special is he figured out how to beat them anyway. Bird could beat you in many ways.... We will know if Lebron is better than Bird if Lebron win's a few more Championships. If he can lead, and overcome consistantly over several seasons to win it all... That's why they play the game, and that's how we should judge them.

Why is Bird suddenly #2 on your list? What happened in the last 9 months?
Also, why is Elgin on your list? He never won ****.

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 07:29 PM

Maybe Lebron is better in the "clutch" than MJ. At this point in their careers, MJ had led his team to one Finals. Lebron has been there three times. MJ never elevated a team as bad as that Cavs' team to the Finals. Lebron has had some shaky playoff games, but so did Magic - who pretty much single-handidly killed the Lakers' title chances in '84.

Everyone seems to forget how criticized MJ was early on his career. It was a drumbeat that "He has to learn that he can't win a title all by himself."

He was lucky to go through this part of his career before the 24/7 coverage of today.

Can you imagine the blogosphere's reaction to the '85 All Star Game? Good God.

You're comparing age. This is LeBron's what 9th season? By that point MJ had won two titles. And let's be real, the idea of LeBron leading that Cavs team to the Finals in a conference with the Bird-led Celtics and Isiah-led Pistons is ridiculous. The Eastern conference sucked in the 2000s, for a good long while. I mean the Lakers three-peated on mediocre opposing championship teams. 2001 76ers...

And I'm never one to destroy one's reputation over one game. You gotta look at the large sample size. And the large sample size is MJ eventually won 6 rings as the man, without a dominant center, which is incredible.

But again, I want a large sample size of toppling your elite peers. Him taking the 07 Cavs to the Finals is incredible and I have spent many nights at the bar telling people just that. So in two season with the Heat, he outshined Durant once after being outshine by not only Dirk but pretty much Jason Terry who was making crucial shots like it was his job in the 2011 Finals. That's 1 for 2.

I'm not saying he won't, he's only 28. I'm saying he hasn't. He has all the tools to do so though so let's see what he does. I'm not a hater, LeBron is an unbelievable basketball player and the sky is the limit.

mboyd784

April-17th-2013, 07:30 PM

Bernard King belongs in anyone's top 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_King

Read up, youngsters.

Sticksboi05

April-17th-2013, 07:33 PM

Oh im not saying they dont matter. Championships do matter, but I dont think they matter as much as you are saying they do. Thats why I brought up the Bill Russel fact. I agree Finals MVPs mean more than regular season MVPs. LeBron is only 28, and has one Finals MVP just like Jordan. He's on his way to his 4th regular season MVP. But I agree he has to do it again and again and again, but he doesnt need 6 finals MVPs to be as good as jordan, IMO. He's transcending the game just as Jordan did when he played.

I don't think 6 is necessary also. But more than one is. And I'm not a guy who solely says 6 rings beats 5. or 4 beats 3. It's a matter of circumstance etc. also.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 08:01 PM

Bernard King belongs in anyone's top 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_King

Read up, youngsters.

Bernard was amazing. Then he got coked up and blew out his knee.

JMS

April-17th-2013, 08:52 PM

I don't think 6 is necessary also. But more than one is. And I'm not a guy who solely says 6 rings beats 5. or 4 beats 3. It's a matter of circumstance etc. also.

Six championships was just the icing on the cake for Jordan's stats.

Michael Jordan

10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991–1992, 1996, 1998)
9x All NBA Defense first team selections
14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
3× NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
#1 ranked player in the history of the NBA/ABA for points per game

Lebron

1x NBA scoring champion
1x NBA Finals MVP
3× NBA Most Valuable Player
4x All NBA Defense first team selections
9× NBA All-Star Lebron has a long way to go to catch Jordan...
#3 ranked player in the history of the NBA/ABA for points per game

If Lebron put together five more NBA Championship seasons, he still would only tie Jordan in one catagory.... Jordan's scoring titles, the all defensive teams and the #1 PPG ranking would be very hard for Lebron to match if he is tied with Jordan for championships at 6. I think Lebron has got to win more Championships than Jordan to pass Jordan.. Tieing him in championships is still going to leave Lebron short in career achievements. Lebron has to put together six more years like last year, and still there will be arguments... Jordan was that good, for that long.

And we aren't even talking Russel yet.

11 NBA Championships
5x NBA League MVP's
5x NBA Rebounding Title

They didn't give finals MVP's for 10 of Russel's 11 Championships... He probable could have had 8 of those too.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 09:56 PM ----------

I don't think 6 is necessary also. But more than one is. And I'm not a guy who solely says 6 rings beats 5. or 4 beats 3. It's a matter of circumstance etc. also.

What "circumstance" could you possible suggest would put a three time champion Lebron over a 6 time championship Jordan? Jordan by far outweights Lebron in the other meaningful career achievement unless Lebron keeps doing what he did last year and for a lot longer than just two more seasons too.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 10:11 PM ----------

why is Elgin on your list? He never won ****.

I'm in love with his

#4 All Time NBA/ABA points per game (27.36)
#9 All Time NBA/ABA rebounds per game (13.5)

vs

Lebron's

#3 All Time NBA/ABA points per game (27.56)
And Lebron's career enemic rebounding of 7.3

One championship doesn't fill that large a gap to my mind. Hell Jordan almost out rebounds Lebron in rebounds per game for his career.. that's just embarrassing..... If Lebron matches last year, this year.... Then I'll put him above Baylor.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 10:27 PM ----------

Bernard King belongs in anyone's top 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_King

Read up, youngsters.

Bernard King was a very good player, I enjoyed watching him, but doesn't belong in this conversation..

4× NBA All-Star (1982, 1984–1985, 1991)
1x NBA scoring champion (1985)
2× All-NBA First Team (1984, 1985)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1978)
1984 Sporting News NBA MVP

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 10:28 PM

Elgin played in an era where teams took nearly twice as many shots and hit a lower percentage of them. Rebounding numbers were wildly wildly inflated then.

You should know this, because you discovered PER rankings yesterday. PER over-rates rebounding (in my view) but accounts for the fluctuations due to era.

This is why Elgin's lifetime PER is 22.7 while Lebron's is 27.6. Lebron's career average PER is better than all but one of Elgin's years.

Again, I'm not particularly in love with PER but it does a decent job of making sense of the NBA in the 60s.

Also, if you think a SF averaging 7.3 a game is poor, why do you have Doc #1? He averaged under 7 once he got to the NBA.

There is zero consistency in any of this. You wildly over-value championships, yet make Doc #1 (1 title) and put Baylor ahead of Lebron. You inexplicably flipped Doc and Bird in less than 8 months. You poo-poo Lebron's rebounding (which is insane, I might add), yet give credit to Doc again. You suddenly became the world's biggest advocate of efficiency stats when we were debating Stockton vs. Isiah (which, in fairness, is a really good argument to make). In this thread, you ignore the ungodly PERs that Lebron throws up.

You also think Lebron is 31.

---------- Post added April-17th-2013 at 10:29 PM ----------

Bernard King was a very good player, I enjoyed watching him, but doesn't belong in this conversation..

I don't believe for a second that you watched any of these people.

PeterMP

April-17th-2013, 10:33 PM

Pippen guarded Magic in the 91 Finals, Charles Barkley in the 93 Finals, Anfernee Hardaway in the Magic/Bulls playoff series in 95 and 96, and Mark Jackson in the way-harder-than-anyone-remembers-now Bulls/Pacers series in 97 and 98.
Pippen guarded Magic some and sparingly during the 1991 finals. The legend is that the Bulls switched over in game 2 when Jordan picked up some early fouls (which is true), but here's the 1st quarter of game 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRnBOfhGBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKRNGxAhASQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

There is one time in that whole first quarter that Pippen comes over and guards Magic one-on-one and never the "hounds" him all the way downt the court. There are a few times (I counted 3) where they try and trap/help with Pippen.

And Pippen fouls out, and the Bulls win the game in OT.

Game 3, they didn't realize what they had in game 2 and took a game to adjust? Here's the start of game 4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loz4Mp2AESA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnK1ZmPCGyk&NR=1&feature=endscreen

All Jordan as Magic's primary defender.

If your claim is that Pippen is one of the best ever because he guarded Magic in the 1991 finals, your just wrong.

(Watching this, it is clear the Bulls had no fear of the Lakers in terms of perimeter shooting. I think Scott had a hurt wrist.)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-17th-2013, 10:51 PM

(Watching this, it is clear the Bulls had no fear of the Lakers in terms of perimeter shooting. I think Scott had a hurt wrist.)

You know, that '91 Lakers team was simply not that good. The three mainstays were Magic, Worthy and Scott, and all three had peaked. Sam Perkins was a starter, and they had no bench at all. If you could guard Magic - and the Bulls clearly could - they did not have a ton of ways to hurt you.

That's the one sad thing about the Bulls' run. I'm not sure they ever played a great team in the Finals. The closest they came may have been the '93 Suns. And that team found a way to give 1000 minutes to Frank Johnson. How many guards shoot 8 percent from the 3 point line?

GoSkins0721

April-17th-2013, 10:52 PM

pfft...Bobbie Dandridge

Maggie Walker HS in Richmond...Norfolk State University...One of the greatest SF of all-time. Teamed up with the Big E & Wes to win a ring in 1978.

Dude was the man as a SF...

JMS

April-18th-2013, 12:00 AM

Elgin played in an era where teams took nearly twice as many shots and hit a lower percentage of them. Rebounding numbers were wildly wildly inflated then.

Also, if you think a SF averaging 7.3 a game is poor, why do you have Doc #1? He averaged under 7 once he got to the NBA.

There is zero consistency in any of this.

Zero consistancy because I don't disregard stats and make exceptions like you do? Only you would define making exceptions as consistancy.

Disregard Elgin Baylors scoring and rebounding stats because they are inflated... But you worship the ground Wilt walks on for the same stats in the same era which you call inflated when discussing Baylor. It's like you think Elgin Baylor was alone in the league in the 1960's.... How come there are modern players from the 70's, 80's, 90's and 21st century players ahead of him if his rebounding stats are so inflated... Consistancy? By your definition inconsistancy is anybody who disagrees with you.

You wildly over-value championships, yet make Doc #1 (1 title)

3 Ttiles, 4 MVP's, 16 All Star Selections NBA and ABA

You poo-poo Lebron's rebounding (which is insane, I might add), yet give credit to Doc again.

Doc has 8.5 career rebounding per game numbers to Lebron's 7.3. But that's not the differentiator between them.. Championships are 3 - 1.

You suddenly became the world's biggest advocate of efficiency stats when we were debating Stockton vs. Isiah (which, in fairness, is a really good argument to make). In this thread, you ignore the ungodly PERs that Lebron throws up.

If you asked me who had a better career Isaiah or Stockton I would say Isaiah... He was the leader of Detroit for two championships. But that wasn't the previous discussion. We were discussiong who would make a better point guard for the 1992 dream team. The most prolific offensive team ever assembled... a guy with an so so record of taking care of the ball coming off a particularly poor year in 90-91, or then one of the most efficient point guards ever, in his prime coming off one of his best years?

Isaiah Thomas
#133 all time efficiency (career 18.11 PER)
Not in the top 250 TS% of .516 coming off a bad year; .507 in 90-91 when selections were made

Stockton
#31 all time ( career 21.83 PER )
#10 career TS% .6081 coming off a great year .644 (90-91)

Entirely different metrics to answer entirely different questions

I don't believe for a second that you watched any of these people.

Ha! You do know Bernard King Played for Washington for years don't you? That was in the late 80's early 90's... It's not impressive to have seen Bernard King Play around here... I'm old enough to remember The Iceman dropping 42 on the Bullets in the playoffs and we still won... I went to that game at the old Cap Center... That was more than a decade before Bernard King.

PeterMP

April-18th-2013, 07:31 AM

Bernard King was a very good player, I enjoyed watching him, but doesn't belong in this conversation..

4× NBA All-Star (1982, 1984–1985, 1991)
1x NBA scoring champion (1985)
2× All-NBA First Team (1984, 1985)
NBA All-Rookie Team (1978)
1984 Sporting News NBA MVP

I actually brought up Benard King earlier in this thread, and I was actually going back to see what I wrote when I saw the response about Magic and Pippen to my much earlier comment.

In that other discussion LKB said that there was probably an 18 month period of time where King was the best non-center in the NBA- better than Bird at his peak.

I think that's likely true.

Now, I understand that there are times when people just don't do it for long enough.

But if you saw King play at his peak, and you think those career stats that you posted are representative of how good King was at his peak, then you don't know much about basketball of that era.

And seeing your comment about seeing him with the Bullets, King was shell of himself post-knee injury and drugs in Washington and that you'd bother to bring that up shows you really don't understand how great King was at his peak.

To give you some advanced stats, in 1984-1985, King had a PER of 25.2 (only behind Jordan and Bird), his 3rd consecutive year of over 20 and it was increasing every year. The next year he blows out his knee and only plays 6 games.

He never reaches a PER of 20 again.

You want to tell me that he wasn't great enough for long enough to be one of the top 5 all time, I'm not going to argue too much, but if your argument is based ONLY on career stats and seeing him play in Washington, then you really have no idea how great King was at his best.

King absolutely at least belongs in the conversation. He might not be top 5, but he's got to be talked about.

stevemcqueen1

April-18th-2013, 07:44 AM

You know, that '91 Lakers team was simply not that good. The three mainstays were Magic, Worthy and Scott, and all three had peaked. Sam Perkins was a starter, and they had no bench at all. If you could guard Magic - and the Bulls clearly could - they did not have a ton of ways to hurt you.

That's the one sad thing about the Bulls' run. I'm not sure they ever played a great team in the Finals. The closest they came may have been the '93 Suns. And that team found a way to give 1000 minutes to Frank Johnson. How many guards shoot 8 percent from the 3 point line?

They played good teams in the second threepeat. Those Sonics and Jazz teams were worthy IMO. The Jazz gave the Bulls a run for their money but the Bulls were just better. The West finally started getting better in the mid 90's.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 08:23 AM

I
King absolutely at least belongs in the conversation. He might not be top 5, but he's got to be talked about.

King is in the conversation the same way Walton should be at center (and frankly overall). In the rare moment when Walton was healthy and in his prime, he is the best center in the history of basketball. Unfortunately, that period lasted, like, six weeks. My wife actually really likes basketball and recently saw a three minute clip of Walton's UCLA highlights and nearly started crying. Just the idea of someone being that magnificent at something and not really being able to do it.

I don't view Bernard that way because he partly sabotaged himself. But - yea - there was a period where he was the best forward in the East. What really made him fun was how much he loved playing MSG. In back to back MSG playoff games against the Celtics at their peak, he dropped 43 and 44 in Larry Bird's face.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 08:26 AM ----------

They played good teams in the second threepeat. Those Sonics and Jazz teams were worthy IMO. The Jazz gave the Bulls a run for their money but the Bulls were just better. The West finally started getting better in the mid 90's.

Ech...the Jazz. I guess they were good.

The Sonics, I give you. That Sonics team should have won a title at some point. Shawn Kemp peaked at age 26 though.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 08:34 AM ----------

Disregard Elgin Baylors scoring and rebounding stats because they are inflated... But you worship the ground Wilt walks on for the same stats in the same era which you call inflated when discussing Baylor.

I don't regard Wilt all that highly. He put up numbers that were insane even for his era and you have to acknowledge that, but I don't think he really learned how to play basketball until 1967. And then he seemed to quickly forget everything he learned.

Let's put it this way: you can't discuss the all-time great centers without discussing Wilt. But I'm not entirely sure I would want him on my team, regardless of how good he was.

Elgin, I agree is great. But not for the whole rebounding thing. Rebounding numbers in the 60s have to be put into context. It's like looking at baseball stats and deciding that all the best pitchers played in the 1890s.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 08:37 AM ----------

Question for the group: Does everyone understand the idea that more shots and lower shooting percentages in the 60s means a lot more rebounds? Is this a difficult concept?

JMS makes me question the clarity of my thoughts.

PeterMP

April-18th-2013, 08:46 AM

They played good teams in the second threepeat. Those Sonics and Jazz teams were worthy IMO. The Jazz gave the Bulls a run for their money but the Bulls were just better. The West finally started getting better in the mid 90's.
The Jazz lacked really good defensive players. I love Malone, and I'll tell you he was a better player than people like Barkely, but he wasn't really a great defensive player.

Nobody ever considered Byron Russell a defensive stopper, and Hornacek was a bad defensive player.

Stockton was okay and Ostertag was just a big body.

The fact that you had to put Hornacek on Pippen just shows the issues that they had, and it wasn't like they had the guy to protect the rim.

You shift Eaton's career by a decade or dump Mutumbo on those teams, and you have a great team.

The Sonics were better, but I'm not sure they were great.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 09:55 AM ----------

King is in the conversation the same way Walton should be at center (and frankly overall). In the rare moment when Walton was healthy and in his prime, he is the best center in the history of basketball. Unfortunately, that period lasted, like, six weeks. My wife actually really likes basketball and recently saw a three minute clip of Walton's UCLA highlights and nearly started crying. Just the idea of someone being that magnificent at something and not really being able to do it.

I don't view Bernard that way because he partly sabotaged himself. But - yea - there was a period where he was the best forward in the East. What really made him fun was how much he loved playing MSG. In back to back MSG playoff games against the Celtics at their peak, he dropped 43 and 44 in Larry Bird's face.Question for the group: Does everyone understand the idea that more shots and lower shooting percentages in the 60s means a lot more rebounds? Is this a difficult concept?

JMS makes me question the clarity of my thoughts.
I honestly don't remember Walton at his peak so I don't like to comment too much (looks like that would have been 76-78, which means I was 4-6).

My impression is that Walton's peak was shorter than King's, and the step down was much greater so that gets into how great for how long and when not great how good.

I also think in terms of greats, there are just more great centers.

From what I know, I'd have more issue putting Walton in top 5 center then King at SF, but again, I didn't see Walton at his peak.

And NEVER let JMS question the clarity of your own thoughts.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 09:59 AM

I honestly don't remember Walton at his peak so I don't like to comment too much (looks like that would have been 76-78, which means I was 4-6).

My impression is that Walton's peak was shorter than King's, and the step down was much greater so that gets into how great for how long and when not great how good.

I also think in terms of greats, there are just more great centers.

From what I know, I'd have more issue putting Walton in top 5 center then King at SF, but again, I didn't see Walton at his peak.

And NEVER let JMS question the clarity of your own thoughts.

Walton was in the NBA from 1974 to 1987 and played 468 games. 80 of those were in his one healthy year as a backup in Boston (that's the year I remember him as a player and he was remarkable for a broken down old guy). Considering the week we are seeing around the country, you don't want to use the word "tragic" in regards to sports. But his career is really really sad.

Bernard's career is more frustrating. The knee injury was bad luck, but common bad luck. And the fact is, even if remained healthy, he was probably going to destroy his career anyway.

JMS

April-18th-2013, 12:21 PM

In that other discussion LKB said that there was probably an 18 month period of time where King was the best non-center in the NBA- better than Bird at his peak.

LKB also called Zeke the best point guard in the history of the game.... Bernard king was a good player, great scorer, on terrible Nets, Jazz, Warriors, Knicks, and Bullets teams. They call him a pure scorer, which is a nice way of saying he didn't do much else but score. It is true that in his best season he scored more points than Bird did in Birds best season. I have a very hard time equating that to King being better than Bird even in that season. There are many good players who could average 32.9 ppg while there team was going 24-58 and every ball was run through you. And scoring alone really didn't ever tell the story of Larry Bird. Bird nearly doubles Kings rebounds and assists per game per season. I don't remember King well enough to know about his defense but if he played defense I'm guessing they wouldn't be calling him a "pure scorer"..

And seeing your comment about seeing him with the Bullets, King was shell of himself post-knee injury and drugs in Washington and that you'd bother to bring that up shows you really don't understand how great King was at his peak.

You are right the Bullets got king only after his major knee surgery.. We got him because he was a prolific scorer. I do think the knicks gave up on him, so you could definitely make the case that I am most familiar with Bernard King after he was "past his prime" after his single best season.. But I would counter.. 90-91 Bernard King had his second best year of his career for the Bullets. We definitely saw him in one of his four All Star years.

As for being Drugged out in Washington... King had a 14 year career and was always a productive offensive talent... That's a pretty long career in the nba. I don't know too many alcoholic drug addicts who can drop 28.4 points per game averaging 38 minutes, when they are 34 years old. Not Injuries, nor Drugs nor Alcohol defined his career in Washington.
I think age ended his career more than any of the maladies you mentioned.

You want to tell me that he wasn't great enough for long enough to be one of the top 5 all time, I'm not going to argue too much, but if your argument is based ONLY on career stats and seeing him play in Washington, then you really have no idea how great King was at his best.

King absolutely at least belongs in the conversation. He might not be top 5, but he's got to be talked about.

King never had any impact in the post season, regularly played for loosing teams, teams which never finished higher than third a five team division... No MVP awards, No Career scoring, rebounding or assists achievements... and most importantly no Championships.... It's hard to say King made his teams better, because the teams he played on pretty much always sucked. It's hard to say he made those around him better for the same reason... I just don't understand any logic which would put him in the conversation of one of the 5 best small forwards in the history of the NBA...

Bernard King was a fun guy to watch... very fun. He was our best player for five years from the moment he stepped on the floor. There is no way he belongs in the conversation for Best Small Forward of All Time. His Career which was a good career, was simple not one of the best. His Stats, while at times good, do not rank with the best. And we are talking career stats here because no other metric counts when you are talking about the best small forward of all time...

Did he have one of the best seasons for a small forward of all time.. no.. Did he have the potential of being one of the best ever... no... He was perhaps one of the best pure scorers at his position and could have achieved that if he had not gotten injured and had not played for so many bad teams in meaningless games...

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 12:38 PM

And we are talking career stats here because no other metric counts when you are talking about the best small forward of all time...

The question is what career stats?

Anyway, back to Bernard...he was somewhat one-dimensional. But what a dimension. The dude shot 57 percent in '84 as a 3 and pretty much the only scoring threat on the Knicks. That's 5 points better than the best ever Bird year.

Which brings us back to Lebron. Who put up a Bernard-like shooting percentage this year - while shooting three pointers, something Bernard did not do.

Lebron is like Bernard...if Bernard was a three point shooter and passer like Bird and as good defensively as Pippen and 40 pounds heavier and a better rebounder.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 12:47 PM ----------

King never had any impact in the post season,

Gasp!
Aackk!!
Pffftttt!!!!

A million Knick fans would tar and feather you while chanting "1984! 1984!"

Bernard was so good in the '84 playoffs Spike Lee dedicated long scenes in his first movie to him.

These are his points in each game of the 1984 Playoffs. Yes, they lost. But they were playing the absolutely loaded '84 Celtics and nearly pulled off the upset.

36 - DET
46 - DET
46 - DET
41 - DET
44 - DET
26 - BOS
13 - BOS
24 - BOS
43 - BOS
30 - BOS
44 - BOS
24 - BOS

Game 4 and Game 6 in MSG are legendary games. Absolutely legendary. Go to a bar in New York today and say, "How about Bernard in '84?" People will lose their minds. He took Boston to 7 games while playing with Bill Cartwright and Rory Sparrow.

But he never did anything in the playoffs.

(There have to be Knick fans here who are not Die Hard. I wish we could move this conversation to a Knick board).

JMS

April-18th-2013, 01:03 PM

King is in the conversation the same way Walton should be at center (and frankly overall). In the rare moment when Walton was healthy and in his prime, he is the best center in the history of basketball. Unfortunately, that period lasted, like, six weeks. My wife actually really likes basketball and recently saw a three minute clip of Walton's UCLA highlights and nearly started crying. Just the idea of someone being that magnificent at something and not really being able to do it..

Only Bill Walton won a championship, a finals MVP, a League MVP all before joining the Celtics. I don't know if he was the best center in the history of the NBA for two years... but he was the best center in the NBA, that's why they gave him the league MVP and how he won the championship..

Walton was arguable the best center in the history of the NCAA... I think he only lost 1 game as a college player while starting all four years for UCLA. ( my bad he lost 5 games ) went 30-0 twice though.. I say arguable because Karem's stats were pretty impressive too... Karem won 4 NCAA championships while also loosing 5 college games in his career, Walton won only 3 championships. That amounted to UCLA's unprecedented 7 consecutive NCAA championships.. I know walton considers Karem's college record better because he said so in his autobiography.

Calling Walton one of the best centers in the history of basketball if not for injury, isn't anywhere near saying the same thing about Bernard King at small forward..

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 01:19 PM

Only Bill Walton won a championship, a finals MVP, a League MVP all before joining the Celtics. I don't know if he was the best center in the history of the NBA for two years... but he was the best center in the NBA, that's why they gave him the league MVP and how he won the championship..

Walton was arguable the best center in the history of the NCAA... I think he only lost 1 game as a college player while starting all four years for UCLA. ( my bad he lost 5 games ) went 30-0 twice though.. I say arguable because Karem's stats were pretty impressive too... Karem won 4 NCAA championships while also loosing 5 college games in his career, Walton won only 3 championships. That amounted to UCLA's unprecedented 7 consecutive NCAA championships.. I know walton considers Karem's college record better because he said so in his autobiography.

Calling Walton one of the best centers in the history of basketball if not for injury, isn't anywhere near saying the same thing about Bernard King at small forward..

You really need to stick to Wikipedia and not your own memory. Kareem could not play varsity as a freshman. He won three titles at UCLA. Walton won two; his team lost in the Semis his senior year.

JMS

April-18th-2013, 01:26 PM

Anyway, back to Bernard...he was somewhat one-dimensional. But what a dimension. The dude shot 57 percent in '84 as a 3 and pretty much the only scoring threat on the Knicks. That's 5 points better than the best ever Bird year.

I agree, He was a very entertaining player to watch,

Gasp!
Aackk!!
Pffftttt!!!!

A million Knick fans would tar and feather you while chanting "1984! 1984!"

My bad, they finished 3rd in their division that year, I didn't consider that still got them into the playoffs. Throw out my entire didn't do anything in the playoffs rant.
Leave in place... never finished better than 3rd in the division on any of his teams...

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 02:48 PM ----------

You really need to stick to Wikipedia and not your own memory. Kareem could not play varsity as a freshman. He won three titles at UCLA. Walton won two; his team lost in the Semis his senior year.

Good Catch...Hmmm, I always try to verify my stats.. I was looking at wiki and the UCLA bruins championships page when I wrote the above..

Walton played for UCLA (1971–1974)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walton

UCLA won the national championship 1967-1973 then lost in 74 Walton's senior season...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Bruins_men%27s_basketball#Season-by-season_results

So what I missed is Freshman couldn't play in the NCAA in Karim and Walton's day... UCLA won the national championship in Walton's freshman season, but he was playing for the freshman squad and not the varsity squad at the time and then Walton lost his senior NCAA tournament.

So Kareem was a perfect 3-0 and Walton was 2-1 for NCAA championships.

(freshmen were ineligible for the varsity at that time),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Bruins_men%27s_basketball#Season-by-season_results
So UCLA was strong enough to go 29-1 with Bill Walton playing on the freshman squad 1970-71. Impressive.

Sticksboi05

April-18th-2013, 01:56 PM

Six championships was just the icing on the cake for Jordan's stats.

Michael Jordan

10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
6× NBA Finals MVP (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
5× NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991–1992, 1996, 1998)
9x All NBA Defense first team selections
14× NBA All-Star (1985–1993, 1996–1998, 2002–2003)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)
3× NBA steals champion (1988, 1990, 1993)
#1 ranked player in the history of the NBA/ABA for points per game

What "circumstance" could you possible suggest would put a three time champion Lebron over a 6 time championship Jordan? Jordan by far outweights Lebron in the other meaningful career achievement unless Lebron keeps doing what he did last year and for a lot longer than just two more seasons too.[COLOR="Gold"]

Where to start...

1. By circumstance I mean winning titles are not just individual greatness, you need a team around you. Sometimes you can have both and by luck alone not win. This is less of an issue in basketball though and applies more to a sport like hockey where there's far more parity but regardless.

2. Again, scoring titles don't matter. Most of those accolades you listed are irrelevant or will be matched by LeBron at some point. He is 28 years old. I actually disagree with LKB, he thinks he'll get substantially better, I think this is LeBron's peak. I don't see him putting up better stats/efficiency than he is now. And when Wade breaks down, that's another issue for another day...

3. 7.3 rebounds per game is fine when you have the ability to pass like a PG from the SF position.

4. Your arguments are literally ridiculous.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:07 PM

My bad, they finished 3rd in their division that year, I didn't consider that still got them into the playoffs. Throw out my entire didn't do anything in the playoffs rant.
Leave in place... never finished better than 3rd in the division on any of his teams....

Let me get this straight. You have these very strong opinions on Bernard King. But you have no memory of 1984 and are just going on online stats.

Can you just admit that you don't really watch the NBA and let us get on with our lives?

I mean, you aren't 23. 1984 is probably the most important year in NBA history. If you were a true NBA fan, you remember that year in detail.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 02:09 PM ----------

So what I missed is Freshman couldn't play in the NCAA in Karim and Walton's day... UCLA won the national championship in Walton's freshman season, but he was playing for the freshman squad and not the varsity squad at the time and then Walton lost his senior NCAA tournament.

Everyone knows all of this.

Okay, let's take a bet. When will JMS figure out that a certain kind of shot was illegal when Kareem played at UCLA?

JMS

April-18th-2013, 02:09 PM

2. Again, scoring titles don't matter. Most of those accolades you listed are irrelevant or will be matched by LeBron at some point. He is 28 years old. I actually disagree with LKB, he thinks he'll get substantially better, I think this is LeBron's peak. I don't see him putting up better stats/efficiency than he is now. And when Wade breaks down, that's another issue for another day...

All the stats matter, just some matter more. If you take it as a given Lebron will eclipse Michael in every category, ( which he could do) then of coarse you've just proven my point, not yours.

Let me refresh your memory. you said Lebron only had to win two more championships in your mind to pass up Michael Jordan... In which case he wouldn't approach Michael Jordan in any of the more meaningful stats.

I agree with you that winning is dependent upon teamwork and intangibles, I disagree though that that negates the metric. The great ones find a way to win. Having impressive stats and not winning eliminates you from discussion as an all time great player in my opinion. You can be a good player and win, you can be a great player and loose, but to be an all time great player you must win because simple there are folks in the NBA who have taken their teams on their backs and won consistently... like Mike. like Magic, like Bird.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:12 PM

3. 7.3 rebounds per game is fine when you have the ability to pass like a PG from the SF position.

The crazy thing about Lebron this year is that he is actually playing an incredible amount of minutes at the 4. You could probably make the argument that this is the single greatest season ever by a power forward, if you wanted to be all wonky.

PeterMP

April-18th-2013, 02:14 PM

LKB also called Zeke the best point guard in the history of the game.... Bernard king was a good player, great scorer, on terrible Nets, Jazz, Warriors, Knicks, and Bullets teams. They call him a pure scorer, which is a nice way of saying he didn't do much else but score. It is true that in his best season he scored more points than Bird did in Birds best season. I have a very hard time equating that to King being better than Bird even in that season. There are many good players who could average 32.9 ppg while there team was going 24-58 and every ball was run through you. And scoring alone really didn't ever tell the story of Larry Bird. Bird nearly doubles Kings rebounds and assists per game per season. I don't remember King well enough to know about his defense but if he played defense I'm guessing they wouldn't be calling him a "pure scorer"..
The Knick teams he was on, in his prime, were not that bad. They made the playoffs twice and each time won a round before losing to the eventual NBA champion (the Sixers and then the Celtics).

In terms of making his teammates better, King pretty demonstratively made the whole team better.

The year before he got to the Knicks, the team was 33-49.

He comes to NY (and the two best other players on the team Sly Williams and Bill Cartwright were already on the team the year before and were the two best players the year before), and they are 11 games better and 44-38, and in the playoffs and win a round.

And you can see it going the other way too. The team he left (Golden State) was 45-37 with him (he's the leading scorer, leaderin in win shares, and PER) went 30-52 the next year.

And when you look at things like win shares, people like Williams (though Williams had a really short career) and Cartwright had their best years of their careers with him.

And in terms of the conversation it isn't really was he better than Bird, but is he better than who you have at #5.

Sticksboi05

April-18th-2013, 02:17 PM

you said Lebron only had to win two more championships in your mind to pass up Michael Jordan...

Let me refresh your memory: When did I ever say that?

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 03:18 PM ----------

All the stats matter, just some matter more. If you take it as a given Lebron will eclipse Michael in every category, ( which he could do) then of coarse you've just proven my point, not yours.

Let me refresh your memory. you said Lebron only had to win two more championships in your mind to pass up Michael Jordan... In which case he wouldn't approach Michael Jordan in any of the more meaningful stats.

I agree with you that winning is dependent upon teamwork and intangibles, I disagree though that that negates the metric. The great ones find a way to win. Having impressive stats and not winning eliminates you from discussion as an all time great player in my opinion. You can be a good player and win, you can be a great player and loose, but to be an all time great player you must win because simple there are folks in the NBA who have taken their teams on their backs and won consistently... like Mike. like Magic, like Bird.

Again, all these players were on teams with plenty of talent. MJ did win 6 titles without a 20/10 big man which is incredible. But the defense played by those Bulls teams especially on the perimeter made up for it. He, Pippen, Ron Harper etc.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:22 PM

By the way, "championships" is not a metric. Bill Wennigton has 3 championship rings. I don't think that actually measures anything except that Bill Wennigton won three championship rings.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 02:23 PM

but to be an all time great player you must win because simple there are folks in the NBA who have taken their teams on their backs and won consistently... like Mike. like Magic, like Bird.

Or you can be like Bill Russell and be on a team with 5 other hall of famers, and get credit for being the greatest of all time solely because you have so many rings (from an era when the league was weak and there were no other great teams to challenge the Celtics).

My point is that just like any statistic can be overrated, championships also can be overrated as a metric when you are weighing players in a team sport. You have to look at stats, you have to look at the level of competition, you have to look at winning, you have to look at the rules of the league and what they allowed the player to do, you have to look at what other contemporaries though of the player, you have to weigh for nostalgia and sportswriter bias, and so on.

You have to mix it all together, and it becomes a subjective exercise, and your own judgement plays a role, as long as you can defend that judgment with persuasive reasoning. Wiki can't answer this kind of question definitively. You can use wiki to that George Mikan was the greatest of all time, and the argument would be well supported by the stats and awards and championships

- and it would be completely wrong.

Sticksboi05

April-18th-2013, 02:24 PM

You have to mix it all together, and it becomes a subjective exercise, and your own judgement plays a role, as long as you can defend that judgment with persuasive reasoning. Wiki can't answer this kind of question definitively. You can use wiki to that George Mikan was the greatest of all time, and the argument would be well supported by the stats and awards and championships

- and it would be completely wrong.

Oh my God, a dose of logic for this discussion!!

Monte51Coleman

April-18th-2013, 02:25 PM

Okay, let's take a bet. When will JMS figure out that a certain kind of shot was illegal when Kareem played at UCLA?

Kareem didn't play at UCLA.

Lew did.

:)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:26 PM

My point is that just like any statistic can be overrated, championships also can be overrated as a metric when you are weighing players in a team sport. You have to look at stats, you have to look at the level of competition, you have to look at winning, you have to look at the rules of the league and what they allowed the player to do, you have to look at what other contemporaries though of the player, you have to weigh for nostalgia and sportswriter bias, and so on.

Uncle Predicto, tell us more Rick Barry stories.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 02:26 PM

By the way, "championships" is not a metric. Bill Wennigton has 3 championship rings. I don't think that actually measures anything except that Bill Wennigton won three championship rings.

Oh yeah? Jim Loscutoff and Robert Horry each have 7. Clearly they were both better than Lebron - or Jordan for that matter. :)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:27 PM

Kareem didn't play at UCLA.

Lew did.

:)

You know....I thought about editing that and was curious to see if anyone would call me on it.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 02:28 PM

Uncle Predicto, tell us more Rick Barry stories.

Can't. Don't have any good ones. I was a Bullets fan living in McLean back then (and didn't follow the NBA very closely). When it comes to the 70s, I'm mostly going on what I read and hear.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:28 PM

Oh yeah? Jim Loscutoff and Robert Horry each have 7. Clearly they were both better than Lebron - or Jordan for that matter. :)

By the way, nothing gets me crazier than the argument that Bill Simmons started and all his fanboys parrot about how Horry should be in the Hall of Fame. It's madness.

Robert Horry's agent should be in the Hall of Fame.

PeterMP

April-18th-2013, 02:30 PM

Again, all these players were on teams with plenty of talent. MJ did win 6 titles without a 20/10 big man which is incredible. But the defense played by those Bulls teams especially on the perimeter made up for it. He, Pippen, Ron Harper etc.
I don't think much of Pippen so I put Jordan in another class than the others, but for most of the others in my life time, you can point to another guy and say that was a great player.

Magic was a great player, but I also know that Kareem was a great player on his own (and I suspect though can't really prove it that Worthy was at least a really good player too).

Bird was a great player, but I know that DJ, McHale, and even Parrish were really good to great players on their own too (i.e. the year Bird got hurt and only played 6 games, despite being towards the end of his own career McHale still had a really good year.).

If you take those Knicks teams and put Bird on them and King on the Celtics, do the Knicks become become Eastern conference champs and not the Celtics?

I doubt it.

In terms of the Benard King discussion, Bill Cartwright was an okay player. It didn't matter if he played with Bernard King or Michael Jordan, and I doubt it would have changed if you were Larry Bird.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:31 PM

Can't. Don't have any good ones. I was a Bullets fan living in McLean back then (and didn't follow the NBA very closely). When it comes to the 70s, I'm mostly going on what I read and hear.

Oh...well...screw you then.

I was at a Phoenix Suns-Lakers game in Phoenix in, I think, 1982. Norm Nixon was still on the team but I'm not really going to look for the game. I got to shake Bill Russell's hand; he was broadcasting. It was terrifyingly huge.

I think I met Tony Atlas that year as well. It was a banner year for me in terms of meeting massive black men.

Monte51Coleman

April-18th-2013, 02:32 PM

You know....I thought about editing that and was curious to see if anyone would call me on it.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n205/stevieBcanyon/CL/horshack.jpg

I can answer your question, too.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:32 PM

I In terms of the Benard King discussion, Bill Cartwright was an okay player. It didn't matter if he played with Bernard King or Michael Jordan.

The Bernard discussion has gone sideways. I think only one person here actually thinks he should be in the top five. Most of us just think that he is in argument if you are talking about a player at his absolute peak. JMS has turned that into whatever it is JMS turns threads into.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 02:33 PM

By the way, nothing gets me crazier than the argument that Bill Simmons started and all his fanboys parrot about how Horry should be in the Hall of Fame. It's madness.

Robert Horry's agent should be in the Hall of Fame.

I suspect that Bill Simmons makes that argument because he is an enormous "Bill Russell is the greatest of all time and clearly better than Wilt because he was a leader and a winner blah blah blah" guy, and he wants to bolster that argument by deifying any player with a lot of rings.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:33 PM

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n205/stevieBcanyon/CL/horshack.jpg

I can answer your question, too.

No....let's let it breathe a bit.

Sticksboi05

April-18th-2013, 02:35 PM

I don't think much of Pippen so I put Jordan in another class than the others, but for most of the others in my life time, you can point to another guy and say that was a great player.

Magic was a great player, but I also know that Kareem was a great player on his own (and I suspect though can't really prove it that Worthy was at least a really good player too).

Bird was a great player, but I know that DJ, McHale, and even Parrish were really good to great players on their own too (i.e. the year Bird got hurt and only played 6 games, despite being towards the end of his own career McHale still had a really good year.).

If you take those Knicks teams and put Bird on them and King on the Celtics, do the Knicks become become Eastern conference champs and not the Celtics?

I doubt it.

In terms of the Benard King discussion, Bill Cartwright was an okay player. It didn't matter if he played with Bernard King or Michael Jordan, and I doubt it would have changed if you were Larry Bird.

Didn't Pippen prove in 1994 that he was a great player without Jordan by his side?

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:37 PM

Didn't Pippen prove in 1994 that he was a great player without Jordan by his side?

Sort of. He had a really great year. Then he threw a temper tantrum on the bench in the closing seconds of a playoff game, which is kind of problematic.

Everyone should know that I am not a believer in "clutch play" and I don't think titles matter much in these discussions. At the same time, you can't throw a temper tantrum on the bench in the closing seconds of a playoff game.

MLSKINS

April-18th-2013, 02:38 PM

Let me refresh your memory: When did I ever say that?
You didn't. I said that...

Okay, let's take a bet. When will JMS figure out that a certain kind of shot was illegal when Kareem played at UCLA?
Are you talking about the dunk? That's the only shot I ever remember being banned in the NCAA. And that is when NC State invented the Alley-Oop to take advantage of David Thompson's leaping ability. I am truly thankful for that creation :ols:

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:38 PM

Monte51Coleman

April-18th-2013, 02:38 PM

I vividly remember in 1975 watching Rick Barry walking to his team bus, at the Capital Centre, in a full-length white fur coat and platform shoes.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:39 PM

You didn't. I said that...

Are you talking about the dunk? That's the only shot I ever remember being banned in the NCAA. And that is when NC State invented the Alley-Oop to take advantage of David Thompson's leaping ability. I am truly thankful for that creation :ols:

Shhhhhhhh........

You are ruining it.........

(But, yes, it was the dunk).

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 02:40 PM ----------

I vividly remember in 1975 watching Rick Barry walking to his team bus, at the Capital Centre, in a full-length white fur coat and platform shoes.

Okay....you can be the old guy who remembers the 70s. Predicto sucks at it.

Did you ever get to see Clyde Frazier up close and personal? I don't think I could handle seeing Clyde in his full 70s regalia. I would pass out.

Monte51Coleman

April-18th-2013, 02:45 PM

Okay....you can be the old guy who remembers the 70s. Predicto sucks at it.

Did you ever get to see Clyde Frazier up close and personal? I don't think I could handle seeing Clyde in his full 70s regalia. I would pass out.

Clyde, Black Jesus, Gus Johnson, etc. Clyde with the furs and the fedoras. :ols:

One day I'll bore you with my story of walking up to the Baltimore Civic Center ticket office and buying low-level seats to game 4 of the '71 NBA Finals. (Well, my Dad buying them.)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 02:53 PM

Clyde, Black Jesus, Gus Johnson, etc. Clyde with the furs and the fedoras. :ols:

One day I'll bore you with my story of walking up to the Baltimore Civic Center ticket office and buying low-level seats to game 4 of the '71 NBA Finals. (Well, my Dad buying them.)

I want to sit on your lap right now.

I couldn't even remember who played in the '71 Finals. Alcindor had to look like an alien up close at that point.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 02:54 PM

I got to shake Bill Russell's hand; he was broadcasting. It was terrifyingly huge.

Ok, size story.

I went to a Warriors/Lakers game in the late 1990s. Someone gave me 5th row seats, which meant that before the game, I could wander right down to the court. Shaquille O'Neal was standing on the sideline talking to Erick Dampier of the Warriors. Dampier had his back to me, O'Neal was facing my way. Now Damp was a big, big man. 6'11'" or 7 foot, probably 285 pounds. Cast a big shadow.

And as he stood there, I realized that Shaq was so massive that you could see some of Shaq on all sides of Dampier. Some of Shaq's right shoulder and right thigh was showing around Damp's side, and some of his left shoulder and left thigh was showing on Damp's right side, the crown of his bald head was showing over the top, and so on. It was like a Venn Diagram, with huge Erick Dampier totally encased in a much larger Shaq circle.

So I moved around to the side. Damp was muscular, by far the biggest guy on the Warriors, but Shaq made him look like a skinny teenager. He had biceps like freaking bowling balls. He had to outweigh Dampier by at least 100 lbs, and he was not fat at all.

Then a trainer or someone came up to talk to both of them, and that guy looked like a Keebler elf in comparison.

TV does not do justice to the epic size of this freak of a human being. It is amazing to me that Shaq's career lasted as long as it did. The pounding his feet and knees must have taken just running up and down the court....

DCranon21

April-18th-2013, 02:56 PM

Clyde, Black Jesus, Gus Johnson, etc. Clyde with the furs and the fedoras. :ols:

One day I'll bore you with my story of walking up to the Baltimore Civic Center ticket office and buying low-level seats to game 4 of the '71 NBA Finals. (Well, my Dad buying them.)

I want to hear these stories one day :ols: I bet Clyde was the man back in the day.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 02:59 PM

Seriously...what good are you if you can't be the old guy who remembers the 70s?

I remember wearing bell bottom cordoroys with a polyester shirt that had lapels wider than my shoulders. Does that help?

Monte51Coleman

April-18th-2013, 02:59 PM

I want to sit on your lap right now.

I couldn't even remember who played in the '71 Finals. Alcindor had to look like an alien up close at that point.

I got his autograph, and Bobby Dandridge's, by walking up near the basket they were warming-up at and asking. (Pre-pre-game warm-ups.) I was 14 and came up to about his stomach.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 04:01 PM ----------

I remember wearing bell bottom cordoroys with a polyester shirt that had lapels wider than my shoulders. Does that help?

Describing what you were wearing last weekend is not germane.

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 04:02 PM ----------

I want to hear these stories one day :ols: I bet Clyde was the man back in the day.

Clyde was cool personified. I, though, was more of an Earl Monroe guy.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 03:06 PM

Ok, size story.

I went to a Warriors/Lakers game in the late 1990s. Someone gave me 5th row seats, which meant that before the game, I could wander right down to the court. Shaquille O'Neal was standing on the sideline talking to Erick Dampier of the Warriors. Dampier had his back to me, O'Neal was facing my way. Now Damp was a big, big man. 6'11'" or 7 foot, probably 285 pounds. Cast a big shadow.

And as he stood there, I realized that Shaq was so massive that you could see some of Shaq on all sides of Dampier. Some of Shaq's right shoulder and right thigh was showing around Damp's side, and some of his left shoulder and left thigh was showing on Damp's right side, the crown of his bald head was showing over the top, and so on. It was like a Venn Diagram, with huge Erick Dampier totally encased in a much larger Shaq circle.

So I moved around to the side. Damp was muscular, by far the biggest guy on the Warriors, but Shaq made him look like a skinny teenager. He had biceps like freaking bowling balls. He had to outweigh Dampier by at least 100 lbs, and he was not fat at all.

Then a trainer or someone came up to talk to both of them, and that guy looked like a Keebler elf in comparison.

TV does not do justice to the epic size of this freak of a human being. It is amazing to me that Shaq's career lasted as long as it did. The pounding his feet and knees must have taken just running up and down the court....

I have a college buddy in Houston who is a gazillionaire. He has floor seats to the Rockets. These are the seats where you sometimes can't see the floor because the Cheerleaders are in the way.

He gives me a pair once a year or so. The first game I went to was during Yao's last injury fight. Yao Ming sitting on the bench in a suit was the most mesmerizing thing I have ever seen. The thing about Yao is that he is not one of those Shawn Bradley types. He is a stocky 7'5 if such a thing is possible. Sitting down, he was looking into the guard's eyes when they huddled up. He was twice as wide as any other player. I spent a large portion of the game just staring at him.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 03:06 PM

I got his autograph, and Bobby Dandridge's, by walking up near the basket they were warming-up at and asking. (Pre-pre-game warm-ups.) I was 14 and came up to about his stomach.[COLOR="Gold"]

That is how I got Mike Riordan's autograph. If I could find it, it's probably worth 16 cents now.

That's how good the NBA was back then. Mike Riordan was a key player on a championship caliber team. :ols:

---------- Post added April-18th-2013 at 01:12 PM ----------

The thing about Yao is that he is not one of those Shawn Bradley types. He is a stocky 7'5 if such a thing is possible.

No disagreeing - Yao is a huge man.

But then, compare the arms on these two guys.

http://i.imgur.com/SKSMSCm.jpg (http://imgur.com/SKSMSCm)

Shaq was a 7 foot one guy built like Gimli. :ols:

Monte51Coleman

April-18th-2013, 03:13 PM

That is how I got Mike Riordan's autograph. If I could find it, it's probably worth 16 cents now.

That's how good the NBA was back then. Mike Riordan was a key player on a championship caliber team. :ols:

He was the designated-fouler in his early days with the Knicks. He won a championship there.

Hey, maybe JMS can wiki-up some stats to get him listed in this discussion. ;)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 03:19 PM

That's how good the NBA was back then. Mike Riordan was a key player on a championship caliber team. :ols:

It's amazing what happens when a league double in size while all the top-line players are going to a rival league. Tommy Heinsohn ends up winning multiple titles as a coach.

(In fairness, I've heard he was actually a pretty good coach. Red seemed to think he was kind of a savant).

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 03:24 PM

It's amazing what happens when a league double in size while all the top-line players are going to a rival league. Tommy Heinsohn ends up winning multiple titles as a coach.

(In fairness, I've heard he was actually a pretty good coach. Red seemed to think he was kind of a savant).

Yep... even sad-sack franchises like the Warriors and Bullets got championships :ols:

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 03:25 PM

Yep... even sad-sack franchises like the Warriors and Bullets got championships :ols:

On the main NBA thread, there are always complaints that the same teams win year after year.

The alternative is the 70s. And the 70s NBA kinda sucked.

Corcaigh

April-18th-2013, 03:42 PM

'Top 5 small forwards in Liverpool history' would be more interesting to me. :pfft:

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 03:48 PM

'Top 5 small forwards in Liverpool history' would be more interesting to me. :pfft:

Kenny Dalglish was totally overrated.

Sticksboi05

April-18th-2013, 03:50 PM

On the main NBA thread, there are always complaints that the same teams win year after year.

The alternative is the 70s. And the 70s NBA kinda sucked.

Well it kind of sucked for many more reasons than that but it would be nice to see some parity. It's boring knowing with 90% confidence the 4 teams with any shot of winning a championship by the halfway mark each year.

PeterMP

April-18th-2013, 04:00 PM

He gives me a pair once a year or so. The first game I went to was during Yao's last injury fight. Yao Ming sitting on the bench in a suit was the most mesmerizing thing I have ever seen. The thing about Yao is that he is not one of those Shawn Bradley types. He is a stocky 7'5 if such a thing is possible. Sitting down, he was looking into the guard's eyes when they huddled up. He was twice as wide as any other player. I spent a large portion of the game just staring at him.
My older brother owned partial season tickets (and not even good ones) to the Bullets when they weren't very good (these were the Googliota, McLean, Gheorghe Muresan, Calbert Cheney Bullets). They had a meet the players lunch for season ticket holders. There was a buffet line, and you stood in-line and got some food and then went to tables where they had the players seated and you could shake their hand and have them sign something and move from player to player.

But the players stood in line for food too.

I'm 6-6, 215 lbs so a pretty big guy, but I'm standing in line behind and McLean and Googliota and I'm feeling short and small. I make a motion to my brother sort of stretching my neck up as if I'm trying to see over them.

And he sort of nods back looking over his shoulder, and I turn around and see Gheorghe Muresan is standing behind us. Talk about feeling small, and he had some woman with him (I don't know if it was a girl friend, a sister, or just some random person) that was also easily taller than me too.

There should still be a ball signed by all of the players on that team in my parents attic if anybody is interested.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-18th-2013, 04:03 PM

What I am taking away from this is that being a Bullets/Wizards fan is basically the most depressing thing ever.

Predicto

April-18th-2013, 04:10 PM

What I am taking away from this is that being a Bullets/Wizards fan is basically the most depressing thing ever.

Warriors. /end thread

PeterMP

April-18th-2013, 05:28 PM

What I am taking away from this is that being a Bullets/Wizards fan is basically the most depressing thing ever.
The funny thing is taht none of us were Bullets fans. I was a Kareem/Magic/Lakers fan when I was young, but I didn't stay with them and have just become a general fan that roots for certain teams/players (I was a big fan of Hakeem and the Rockets and so rooted heavily for them, and then the Nets w/ Kidd, etc.).

My brother was/is a Bulls fan (because of Jordan, but he has stayed with them).

He had a like 20 game plan to ensure that he had good seats to see Jordan. You could select some of the games so he saw Jordan at least twice a year.

They'd make you take some stinkers, but we'd go and have fun (realistically, I had to pay for the games I went to so I was going to a few games out of the 20, but he always found people to go with him).

After this lunch, I remember him laughing at the idea that of the Bull doing the samething. Telling Jordan that:
1. He had to meet all of these random fans.
2. They were going to feed him, but it was this general buffet stuff.
3. If he wanted food, he had to stand in-line for it with the fans.

But the Bullet players all seemed to take it in stride. Googs and MacLean were standing around laughing and joking and none of them were dressed up or anything.

(It seems to me as televsion and the like gets better and interest in actually going to games declines that this is the type of thing more teams are going to have to do to get people to games.)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-19th-2013, 09:37 AM

After this lunch, I remember him laughing at the idea that of the Bull doing the samething. Telling Jordan that:
1. He had to meet all of these random fans.
2. They were going to feed him, but it was this general buffet stuff.
3. If he wanted food, he had to stand in-line for it with the fans.

That's funny. It had to be about the exact same time as when I was in college. The Nets used our gym for their training camp. This was when The Nets were really The Nets. I think Coleman and Anderson had just gotten there, but they were still a nothing franchise with a nothing fanbase. You could pretty much walk right onto the floor of the gym while they were practicing. My work study was in the athletic office so I was down there quite a bit - and was not even tempted to go watch this awful team practice.

I did meet Dwayne Schintzius and his mullet in the lobby area though. So, that was cool.

Like you, I remember thinking, there is no way that the Knicks just let you wander onto their practice court.

JMS

April-19th-2013, 11:35 AM

Let me refresh your memory: When did I ever say that?

this is in reference too..

Let me refresh your memory. you said Lebron only had to win two more championships in your mind to pass up Michael Jordan... In which case he wouldn't approach Michael Jordan in any of the more meaningful stats.

Post #110
http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?367040-Top-5-small-forwards-in-NBA-history&p=9489950&viewfull=1#post9489950

I don't think 6 is necessary also. But more than one is. And I'm not a guy who solely says 6 rings beats 5. or 4 beats 3. It's a matter of circumstance etc. also.

you were responding to

Oh im not saying they dont matter. Championships do matter, but I dont think they matter as much as you are saying they do. Thats why I brought up the Bill Russel fact. I agree Finals MVPs mean more than regular season MVPs. LeBron is only 28, and has one Finals MVP just like Jordan. He's on his way to his 4th regular season MVP. But I agree he has to do it again and again and again, but he doesnt need 6 finals MVPs to be as good as jordan, IMO. He's transcending the game just as Jordan did when he played.

Which is when I said... What Circumstances would possible allow Lebron with 3 rings to eclipse Michael with 6, given Michael would hold so many other meaningful career accomplishments Lebron could not achieve with only two more rings... In fact Lebron is likely never to achieve. Like the scoring titles and all defensive team awards. I also said given Jordan's other stats, Lebron will really need to eclipse his championships to eclipse his reputation and career.

You didn't. I said that...

Yes he did, and you were wrong too.

---------- Post added April-19th-2013 at 12:43 PM ----------

[/COLOR]
By the way, "championships" is not a metric. Bill Wennigton has 3 championship rings. I don't think that actually measures anything except that Bill Wennigton won three championship rings.

If you are talking the best player ever, or the best positional player ever championships definitely are a metric. It's just not the only metric.... I think if you are talking the greatest ever, it also implies you are the best one on the championship team.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-19th-2013, 11:45 AM

If you are talking the best player ever, or the best positional player ever championships definitely are a metric. It's just not the only metric.... I think if you are talking the greatest ever, it also implies you are the best one on the championship team.

Which Lebron was and more than likely will be again - which is impressive for a 31-year-old second banana. Championship rings are a validation more than anything else. The lack of a title was the one thing really weighing Lebron down before last year. That's gone. Going back to back will more or less make any argument about not "being a winner" vanish forever.

Whether he will surpass Jordan is an open question. He's the only player on the horizon who really has a chance. The next five years are going to be fascinating.

Let me ask you a question. If he goes three straight with Miamia...and then does actually go back to Cleveland and wins one there..... giving the city its first title in anything since the 1964 and erasing the memory of The Decision... and does it in a really great era of NBA basektball ....isn't that almost as impressive as two three-peats on a super team in what in retrospect was kind of a down period of NBA talent ?

JMS

April-19th-2013, 12:07 PM

Let me ask you a question. If he goes three straight with Miamia...and then does actually go back to Cleveland and wins one there..... giving the city its first title in anything since the 1964 and erasing the memory of The Decision... and does it in a really great era of NBA basketball ....isn't that almost as impressive as two three-peats on a super team in what in retrospect was kind of a down period of NBA talent ?

It could be a persuasive argument.. but to my mind, no. One could make the case Jordan would have a few more championships if he hadn't gone to baseball or finished his career out with the bulls, or if the bulls had ponied up more money... I don't give Jordan those championships. I think he won six... I don't discount the talent in the NBA when he was there, like I don't discount the talent in the NBA when Isaiah won. Or add championships to Bird or Magic because they played in the Golden age of the NBA... Everybody in the NBA is measured relative to their peers every year, and the most meaningful metric of what you accomplish is championships... Would Kevin Garnet and the Celtics had won more championships if KG had gone to Boston earlier.. Could he have won more than championships, Bird? Maybe, but he didn't... He doesn't get credit for it then.

If you take Bird or Magic out of the league both of those guys have three or four more championships right... but you can't give them credit for those championships if they didn't actually win them.

If Lebron wins 5, He will have had a truly great career, but I don't think that makes him the all time great given another player has six. If I were a fan, I'd much rather draft a guy on his way to six championships than five. And before you say "team" count's for +1 or +2... Don't even go there... If Lebron win's 5 he's got a very very good team around him, as did Michael, as did Bird, as did Magic. You don't win 1 championship without a good team much less 5. I don't give or subtract championships based upon team.. Great players make other players great.. Take any of the greats and remove them from their teams and those teams are no longer championship teams... most of them wouldn't even get out of the first or second round of the playoffs..

Well except in the NCAA were evidently UCLA went 29-1 without Walton.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-19th-2013, 12:15 PM

I don't give Jordan those championships. I think won six.

Can you just admit that you don't watch the NBA. Please? Pretty please?

.. I don't discount the talent in the NBA when he was there, like I don't discount the talent in the NBA when Isaiah won.

I'm not discounting the talent. I'm just saying it varies from era to era. 1984 was a high point where a lot of talent was concentrated in a league with fewer teams. By 1997, I think there was less talent and too many teams. Right now, there is a ton of talent in the NBA. It's really insane. Try figuring out the guards on the All NBA team. It's impossible.

Everybody in the NBA is measured relative to their peers every year, and the most meaningful metric of what you accomplish is championships...

Or PER. Championships or PER. No, let's go with PER.

Would Kevin Garnet and the Celtics had one more championships if KG had gone to Boston earlier..

Huh?

Could he have won six championships? Sure, but he didn't... He doesn't get credit for it then.

No, I don't think he could have actually. KG in Boston in the early 2000s? I'm not even sure how that works with Antoine still there. Are you trading Toine? Do you know who Toine is?

If you take Bird or Magic out of the league both of those guys have three or four more championships right... but you can't give them credit for those championships if they didn't actually win them.

No. If there was no Bird, Magic has one more title - 84.

Without Magic.....Bird likely has two more titles. But one can't assume that the '87 team wouldn't have just collapsed against a healthy team in the West. I give Bird one more as well.

If I were a fan, .

Which you clearly are not.

Seriously, you don't know how many titles MJ won. You don't know how old Lebron is. You didn't know about the freshman rule in college. You don't remember anything about Bernard King's career. You aren't a fan. It's okay. Just admit it.

mcsluggo

April-19th-2013, 12:50 PM

It hurts Lebron he couldn't get it done in Cleveland .
At least right now in his accomplishments.

I am sorry.... but this statement is just plain idiotic.

Lebron was 12 years old and the second best baskeball player on his team was Stephanie Zimbalist.... and he went to the finals.

Jordan never accomplished that at a comprable point in his career. NOBODY has.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-19th-2013, 12:55 PM

I am sorry.... but this statement is just plain idiotic.

Lebron was 12 years old and the second best baskeball player on his team was Stephanie Zimbalist.... and he went to the finals.

You should take a bow, and we should close the thread.

PeterMP

April-19th-2013, 01:01 PM

If I were a fan, I'd much rather draft a guy on his way to six championships than five.
So if some how you were put in charge of an NBA team and can take any player in history at the start of their career and add them to your team, you're taking Robert Horry?

Leonard Washington

April-19th-2013, 01:08 PM

So if some how you were put in charge of an NBA team and can take any player in history at the start of their career and add them to your team, you're taking Robert Horry?

It's better to be lucky than good.

I'd take James Worthy.

G.A.C.O.L.B.

April-19th-2013, 01:26 PM

My older brother owned partial season tickets (and not even good ones) to the Bullets when they weren't very good (these were the Googliota, McLean, Gheorghe Muresan, Calbert Cheney Bullets). They had a meet the players lunch for season ticket holders. There was a buffet line, and you stood in-line and got some food and then went to tables where they had the players seated and you could shake their hand and have them sign something and move from player to player.

But the players stood in line for food too.

I'm 6-6, 215 lbs so a pretty big guy, but I'm standing in line behind and McLean and Googliota and I'm feeling short and small. I make a motion to my brother sort of stretching my neck up as if I'm trying to see over them.

And he sort of nods back looking over his shoulder, and I turn around and see Gheorghe Muresan is standing behind us. Talk about feeling small, and he had some woman with him (I don't know if it was a girl friend, a sister, or just some random person) that was also easily taller than me too.

There should still be a ball signed by all of the players on that team in my parents attic if anybody is interested.

If you go to any amount of Wizards games these days, you are destined to meet big Gheorghe. He's like a team community rep or something. Basically just goes to the games and kicks it with the fans. I've probably shaken his hand at least 25 times over the last decade. Seen him much more. He's the nicest guy in the world, and yes, his size is jaw dropping. Remember going to a game with Who Del maybe five years ago and had box seats. Gheorghe was kicking it in the box, calling Who Del "Big Guy" all night. Fun guy to be around.

Anyway, back to the thread topic, the biggest mystery to me, maybe in ALL of sports, is Scottie Pippen. I just don't know where to rank him and how to think about him.

JMS

April-19th-2013, 03:33 PM

Anyway, back to the thread topic, the biggest mystery to me, maybe in ALL of sports, is Scottie Pippen. I just don't know where to rank him and how to think about him.

I think you rank him like a Kevin McCale, or James Worthy. Great Players... Perenial All Stars. Bird or Magic weren't winning any championships without them. But they weren't as great as Magic / Bird / or Jordan.

---------- Post added April-19th-2013 at 04:33 PM ----------

So if some how you were put in charge of an NBA team and can take any player in history at the start of their career and add them to your team, you're taking Robert Horry?

No, I wouldn't.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-19th-2013, 03:34 PM

No, I wouldn't.

Would you take Kevin McCale?

How about Jim Drunken?

JMS

April-19th-2013, 03:35 PM

What I am taking away from this is that being a Bullets/Wizards fan is basically the most depressing thing ever.

The fat lady will sing again..... I wonder if you guys even know what that means?

---------- Post added April-19th-2013 at 04:38 PM ----------

Would you take Kevin McCale?

I don't understand the question

How about Jim Drunken?

Don't know him.

PeterMP

April-19th-2013, 03:39 PM

I think you rank him like a Kevin McCale, or James Worthy. Great Players... Perenial All Stars. Bird or Magic weren't winning any championships without them. But they weren't as great as Magic / Bird / or Jordan.
I don't think Worthy or McHale refused to take the floor in the closing seconds of a playoff game to have their coach say fine then sit on the bench, and have the rest of the team to make the play and win the game while they were sitting on the bench.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-19th-2013, 04:02 PM

Don't know him.

He played with Tony Perkins. This happened when Lebron was 35.

JMS

April-19th-2013, 05:24 PM

I don't think Worthy or McHale refused to take the floor in the closing seconds of a playoff game to have their coach say fine then sit on the bench, and have the rest of the team to make the play and win the game while they were sitting on the bench.

Well you can point to that one bad decision and make that the defining moment of his career. Or you can take the 6 championships which the bulls would not have won without their second best player... Or you can take the years he played with a be low market value contract so he wouldn't let Phil or Michael down. You know my metric of choice...

I'll tell you a personal story... My brush with greatness.. ( one brush )... I was flying from Chicago to Memphis duing the 1990's. I was a 100k traveler so I got special treatment... Got on the plane early, vouchers for first class; stuff like that. Anyway I'm putting my bag in the overhead and there is this crappy yellow nylon bag already in there... It was kind of dirty, so I gave it a once over and the cheap gold lettering which was coming off right by the canvas straps said... 1992 Olympics Men's Basketball team..

Look over and Scottie Pippin is sitting across the isle from me on the trip to Memphis. He was a very impressive guy. He must have signed a hundred autographs. Everyone on the flight crew, Everybody on the ground crew, Every passenger who got on the plane stopped by his seat and said a few words and got his autograph. Pippen was the perfect gentleman. I was getting annoyed and I was just sitting near him. Dude had the patients of jobe. At one point I did say something like "man does anybody give you a break"? He kind of stared at me nervously and smiled, then looked down and continued doing what he was doing.. I kind of took it like he didn't know where I was going with it and was at red alert not to cause, get caught up, or experiene any controversy... The guy was a perfect gentleman and I don't think I could have handled that guys life for 30 minutes... I give him the benifit of the doubt for those few seconds in one of 11 or 12 years when he went to the playoffs.

---------- Post added April-19th-2013 at 06:41 PM ----------

Everybody in the NBA is measured relative to their peers every year, and the most meaningful metric of what you accomplish is championships...

Or PER. Championships or PER. No, let's go with PER.

So now you think PER is the greatest stat in the world for everybody except your self annointed #1 point guard of all time?

I don't think PER is a very good metric to judge one's career. First it undervalues defense, it doesn't even count wins, It over values folks who shoot more, and it undervalues folks who sacrifice their game for the benifit of the club.... The worst thing however is it ignores clutch players... Per says the first shot is as important as the last shot... Only the last shot can be infinitely harder to make, and infinitely more important... There are folks who's entire career can be colored by one amaizing shot.

I mean to your mind was Derek Fisher a be low average player his entire career? If you go by PER he was..
What about John Paxson, without Paxon Jordan only has 5 championships and Barkley get's one.

Sean Elliot was only slightly above average 2 out of 11 years.. really?

PeterMP

April-19th-2013, 08:01 PM

Well you can point to that one bad decision and make that the defining moment of his career. Or you can take the 6 championships which the bulls would not have won without their second best player... Or you can take the years he played with a be low market value contract so he wouldn't let Phil or Michael down. You know my metric of choice
He didn't play below market value as compared to many great NBA players that's just how the NBA (and NFL) worked then. That year Pippen made just over $3 million. Hakeem made just over $3.1 million and less than $100,000 more than Pippen.

But Shaq was already making almost $4 million and Dennis Scott was makeing over $2.8 million.

The newer draft picks got biger money contracts.

And I think if you ask any coach or player, they'd tell you that asking to take yourself out of a playoff game at the very end of the game because you didn't like the play is a negative mark.

If I take Pippen off, who does he get replaced with and what quality of player?

Let's say somehow I could take Pippen off and put Paul Pierce on, how many championships do the Bulls win (I don't see Pierce on many of the lists here)?

What if I put Grant Hill on those teams even where he over lapped and was healthy playing in Detroit (Detroit and the Bulls trade Hill for Pippen straight up) so that would be the last 3 championships)? Is it likely that the Bulls still win and Hill has 3 championships and despite his injuries after he left Detroit (now Chicago) we're talking about him as a top 5 SF?

That fact that you had a good experience with Pippen at an airport is COMPLETELY irrelevant to his basketball career.

skinsfan1523

April-19th-2013, 09:21 PM

He didn't play below market value as compared to many great NBA players that's just how the NBA (and NFL) worked then. That year Pippen made just over $3 million. Hakeem made just over $3.1 million and less than $100,000 more than Pippen.

But Shaq was already making almost $4 million and Dennis Scott was makeing over $2.8 million.

The newer draft picks got biger money contracts.

And I think if you ask any coach or player, they'd tell you that asking to take yourself out of a playoff game at the very end of the game because you didn't like the play is a negative mark.

If I take Pippen off, who does he get replaced with and what quality of player?

Let's say somehow I could take Pippen off and put Paul Pierce on, how many championships do the Bulls win (I don't see Pierce on many of the lists here)?

What if I put Grant Hill on those teams even where he over lapped and was healthy playing in Detroit (Detroit and the Bulls trade Hill for Pippen straight up) so that would be the last 3 championships)? Is it likely that the Bulls still win and Hill has 3 championships and despite his injuries after he left Detroit (now Chicago) we're talking about him as a top 5 SF?

That fact that you had a good experience with Pippen at an airport is COMPLETELY irrelevant to his basketball career.

Pippens not always a gentlemen. You can ask many waiters and waitresses that. I think they call him no tippin Scottie Pippen.

G.A.C.O.L.B.

April-19th-2013, 10:06 PM

Pippens not always a gentlemen. You can ask many waiters and waitresses that. I think they call him no tippin Scottie Pippen.

I've always heard that Jordan (especially) and Pippen are both huge *******s.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-20th-2013, 09:12 AM

I've always heard that Jordan (especially) and Pippen are both huge *******s.

I've heard that too.

By the way, Dwayne Schintzius was a perfect gentleman with me. I have him at #18 on my all time list because of that.

JMS

April-20th-2013, 10:41 AM

He didn't play below market value as compared to many great NBA players that's just how the NBA (and NFL) worked then. That year Pippen made just over $3 million. Hakeem made just over $3.1 million and less than $100,000 more than Pippen.

Link??

The season Scotie refused to play the last 1.8 seconds of game 3 of the Eastern Conference semifinals against the knicks was 1994. In the 1997 - 98 championship season for instance his last season under his rookie contract, Pipen was still only the fifth paid player on the bulls team.

Michael Jordan ........ $33,140,000
Ron Harper ............ 4,560,000
Toni Kukoc ............ 4,560,000
Dennis Rodman ......... 4,500,000 [rumored, new salary wasn't listed]
Luc Longley ........... 3,184,900
Scottie Pippen ........ 2,775,000
http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries98.txt

To compare, on the Wizards that year we had 5 players being paid more than Pippen, and not by a small margin either.

Washington Wizards ($40,718,075)
Player Salary
Juwan Howard .......... $11,250,000
Chris Webber .......... 9,000,000
Harvey Grant .......... 4,671,875
Calbert Cheaney ....... 3,600,000
Rod Strickland ........ 3,450,000
Tracy Murray .......... 2,040,000
Gheorghe Muresan ...... 1,887,500
http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries98.txt

And no Hakeem was not making comparable money to Pippen.... Hakeem was making 4 times what Pippen was making..
Drexler twice as much.

Houston Rockets ($28,086,350)
Player Salary
Hakeem Olajuwon ....... $11,156,000
Clyde Drexler ......... 5,500,000
http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries98.txt

Pipen got royally boned by his agent. He signed a long term (6 year) rookie contract with a 5 year extenstion which the bulls wisely picked up... Pipen was not compensated as an NBA Starter much less an elite player or a vital player on six world championship teams.. His salary was not favorable to Pippen at all, he was severely underpaid for most of his professional career. ( Pippen after his championship seasons signed some lucrative contracts, but his leverage was mostly gone by that point)... Pippen had all the leverage in the world to hold out and renegotiate when the Bulls were winning it all too.. The bulls were in contention for the championship every year for nearly a decade, Pippen holding out would have severely hurt those chances.. Pippen didn't hold out, becaue he didn't want to let Michael and Phil down. Period. Pippen didn't want to let down Mike who was making more than 10 times as much as he just from his NBA salary. And remember, Jordan only made about 10% of his compensation from his NBA salary..

Pippen got locked up with a bargain 6 year rookie contract and then the bulls exersized an extention to that contract for 5 more years which was an even larger bargain. The bulls had courted Kukoc for most of Scotties career offering him more money and Scottie never forgave either of them for it. In 1994 scottie had just led a jordanless team to 55 win season and he had earned the right to take the last shot in the big game. Jackson took that away from him... And that lead to the unfortunate decision when the moltov cocktail of jealocy, insecurity, ego and compeditiveness boiled over. Pippen appoligized to his team, and his team forgave him. The Bulls won 3 more championships with Pippen. If you think one selfish moment should overshaddow a totally unselfish career... then I think you are being unrealistic and overly harsh on a truely great player who had a bad 1.8 seconds in a great 20 year career..

---------- Post added April-20th-2013 at 12:00 PM ----------

That fact that you had a good experience with Pippen at an airport is COMPLETELY irrelevant to his basketball career.

Pippen isn't on my Top 5 small forward of all time list. Neither is McCale, or Worthy. Pippens six championships which the Bulls would not have won without him certainly speak to his career. I think more than a bad decision in one game.
Don't get me wrong, one bad decision would sink many peoples career in my book... Just not a six time champion who sacrificed so much for most of his career selflessly. As any informed person knows.

And I don't think "I had a good experience with him" so much as I got to see what 2 hours of being him was like. Looked like hell to me, and I only got to see 2 hours.[COLOR="Gold"]

Monte51Coleman

April-20th-2013, 11:32 AM

For gawd's sake, it's Kevin McHale not Kevin McCale.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-20th-2013, 01:06 PM

For gawd's sake, it's Kevin McHale not Kevin McCale.

He's an NBA expert. Maybe it really is Kevin McCale. And maybe he really is a SF and not a PF. Maybe it's the rest of us that are wrong.

Also, maybe Lebron really is 31.

Arguing with JMS can really make you start doubting things.

Spaceman Spiff

April-20th-2013, 01:20 PM

Can't mention Pippen without:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D9Zf6uMdDk

Monte51Coleman

April-20th-2013, 01:43 PM

He's an NBA expert. Maybe it really is Kevin McCale. And maybe he really is a SF and not a PF. Maybe it's the rest of us that are wrong.

Also, maybe Lebron really is 31.

Arguing with JMS can really make you start doubting things.

Of course McHale played the power forward. As everyone knows, Larry Byrd played the small forward.

PeterMP

April-20th-2013, 03:50 PM

Link??

The season Scotie refused to play the last 1.8 seconds of game 3 of the Eastern Conference semifinals against the knicks was 1994. In the 1997 - 98 championship season for instance his last season under his rookie contract, Pipen was still only the fifth paid player on the bulls team.
I was talking about the season when the incident happened, but again that wasn't uncommon for that era of NBA.

What you missed is that Hakeem was older than Pippen and so already had more years and more contracts into his career at the same date:

For their career, Pippen made $2 million more despite playing a year less:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

And whether his contract was bad or not depended on his career, which was unknown at the time he was drafted. If you compare him to Reggie Williams (one pick in front of him), who made $9.5 million for his career (which ended in 1997), which was less than Pippen had made by 1994-1995 ($13.5 million).

The Bulls made one bet and were right. Pippen was wrong.

But the biggest driver was the year he came into the league compared to some of the other players (in terms of any given year his contract being undervalued).

But anyway, it isn't like Pippen had a choice. What was he going to do? Not play and not get paid.

Doing what you have to do isn't selfless.

Pippen was angry that even with Jordan he wasn't the #1 on offense to take the shot so he sat on the bench and refused to take the court.

His contract at the time was fine in comparision to other great players.

And I'm not invalidating his career based on then one moment, I do think you have to take into account when ranking him in comparision to people like Worthy and McHale.

Does it mean that a guy like Scott Williams was better than him?

No.

In terms of the 6 championships, I don't put a ton of value on them.

JMS

April-20th-2013, 05:42 PM

I was talking about the season when the incident happened, but again that wasn't uncommon for that era of NBA.

Yes an 11 year rookie contract was extremely uncommong for the NBA in Pippen's time, and now.
Pippen was like one of 12 children or something like that from an impovereshed backwater in Arkansas. He it a growth spert at the right time in college and rocketed up the scouts depth charts in a very improbable way.....

His agent stunk, and the Bulls owner Kraus took him to school.

What you missed is that Hakeem was older than Pippen and so already had more years and more contracts into his career at the same date:

Hakeem came into the league 2 maybe 3 years before Pippen... Hakeem was certainly a better player and all so I'm not sure he is a great example for comparison.. But Pippen being the 6th highest player on the bulls team behind luke longly is a travesty.

For their career, Pippen made $2 million more despite playing a year less:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

But anyway, it isn't like Pippen had a choice. What was he going to do? Not play and not get paid.

Doing what you have to do isn't selfless.

Pipen certainly could have held out.. He certainly could have broken his contract. People with a lot less leverage than pippen do it all the time.. There is no way Jerry Kraus would have allowed his second best player on a championship hopeful team sit rath[/er than pay him what he was already paying lesser players...

Yes Pippen could have sat, could have broken his contract. But he didn't.

Pippen was angry that even with Jordan he wasn't the #1 on offense to take the shot so he sat on the bench and refused to take the court.

No you are wrong. Jordan wasn't on the team when Pippen sat out the final 1.8 seconds. Tony KuKoc was and Tony is the one who made the shot when Pippen sat out.

]quote]
His contract at the time was fine in comparision to other great players.
[/quote]

NO HE WASN'T... It happenned in 1994...

Pippen made $3,075,000 million in 1994.... Jordan made more money from the Bulls that season and he didn't even play.

Here is how the NBA Salary Structure broke down in 1993-1994...

0 players will earn $6 million or more
2 players will earn $5 to 6 million
4 players will earn $4 to 5 million
21 players will earn $3 to 4 million
59 players will earn $2 to 3 million

here are the top ten plaers salaries in 1994

Top 10 salaries (in millions)
1. David Robinson (SA) $5.74
2. Buck Williams (Por) $5.05
3. Vlade Divac (LAL) $4.133
4. Robert Parish (Bos) $4.0
5. Ron Harper (LAC) $4.0
6. Michael Jordan (Chi) $4.0 (still paid)
7. Shaquille O'Neal (Orl) $3.9
8. Patrick Ewing (NY) $3.825
9. John Williams (Cle) $3.786
10. Sam Perkins (Sea) $3.587
]quote]

Pippen was far better than 27 players in the NBA in 1994.
http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/misc/salaries94.txt

[quote]
And I'm not invalidating his career based on then one moment, I do think you have to take into account when ranking him in comparision to people like Worthy and McHale.

Only McHale ( who I love ) didn't win six..... neither did Worthy.

In terms of the 6 championships, I don't put a ton of value on them.

Jordan doesn't win 1 without Pippen.... Pippen wasn't the best player on the Bulls, but he certainly was essential... and not if you put Paul Pierce on the Bulls roster I'm not sure he does win 6. Pippen really matched up with Jordan very well... It wasn't just his offense, It was his defense too which was outstanding maybe even better than Jordan's.

Monte51Coleman

April-20th-2013, 06:44 PM

Jordan doesn't win 1 without Pippen....

:munchout:

PeterMP

April-20th-2013, 09:31 PM

Hakeem came into the league 2 maybe 3 years before Pippen... Hakeem was certainly a better player and all so I'm not sure he is a great example for comparison.. But Pippen being the 6th highest player on the bulls team behind luke longly is a travesty.

That's my point. Despite being better than Pippen, the difference in the time they came into the league made a difference in how much they made in the end and small differences over the majority of their career and at the end Pippen out earned him

For a good number of years, the amount Hakeem made wasn't much more than Pippen and for his career he made less despite being the better player.

And it happened to other players too, including Jordan. In 1992, Jordan was the 5th highest player in the league. Anybody believe that Jordan was the 5th best player in the league in 1992?

The league was growing in such a manner that a contract that was signed two years prior was no longer "fair", but in the vast majority of the cases the contracts weren't redone.

And not only do I think that Kraus would have let him sit, Kraus tried to trade him.

No you are wrong. Jordan wasn't on the team when Pippen sat out the final 1.8 seconds. Tony KuKoc was and Tony is the one who made the shot when Pippen sat out.

Left the out out. Should have been without. Without Jordan, he was upset that he wasn't the #1 option in the closing seconds of a game.

NO HE WASN'T... It happenned in 1994...
Pippen made $3,075,000 million in 1994.... Jordan made more money from the Bulls that season and he didn't even play.
Jordan had retired and had a guaranteed contract. The Bulls had to pay him. If Jordan had played, he would have made $4 million so in the context of Jordan making $4 million, Pippen making over $3,000,000 is reasonable.

and Pippen's contract was very comparable to Hakeem's, which you already admitted was the better player (less than $100,000 difference).

That is what was happening those days. If Hakeem made less than $100,000 more than Pippen and Hakeem was a better player, then Pippen's contract wasn't out of line with other great players.

Jordan doesn't win 1 without Pippen.... Pippen wasn't the best player on the Bulls, but he certainly was essential... and not if you put Paul Pierce on the Bulls roster I'm not sure he does win 6. Pippen really matched up with Jordan very well... It wasn't just his offense, It was his defense too which was outstanding maybe even better than Jordan's.

I disagree.

I'm not sure that Pippen is/was a better defensive player than Pierce, but even if he is Pierce is a better shooter, which would give you better spacing and ball movement on the Jordan drives and even any effort to double in the high post/his mid-range jump shot.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and win an NBA title.

And I'll even say, let's say on that Bulls team before Pippen, they had somebody like Maurice Cheeks (a good ball handler and defensive player, but not a great shooter) instead of Paxson at PG.

They could have gotten a good shooting SF like Eddie Johnson or Cuck Pearson and still won at least a lot championships.

And Pippen was not Jordan's equal on the defensive end of the floor until the end of Jordan's time in Chicago.

They had Paxson and they needed more perimeter defense more than shooting, but the idea that they couldn't have traded a little defense for even more preimeter shooting during the Jordan era just isn't true.

And certainly some sort of combination like Jordan, Cheeks, Wilkins, Grant, and Cartwright (where Dominique wasn't the perimeter defender that Pierce or Pippen were/are) is going to win a bunch of titles.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-20th-2013, 10:11 PM

Jordan doesn't win 1 without Pippen.... Pippen wasn't the best player on the Bulls, but he certainly was essential... and not if you put Paul Pierce on the Bulls roster I'm not sure he does win 6. Pippen really matched up with Jordan very well... It wasn't just his offense, It was his defense too which was outstanding maybe even better than Jordan's.

That's insane. Dirk was able to win a title without a second real star. Jordan certainly would have figured it out more than once.

I really like Pippen. I gave him an honorable mention on this list. But I'm not 100 percent convinced that he did anything that, say, Shane Battier couldn't do - or isn't doing at a pretty advanced age. If Battier was 12 years younger and ended up on the Bulls, he gives them nearly as much flexibility as Pippen did. He doesn't attack the rim as well, but is a much better three point shooter. And he is on the same level defensively.

What made Pippen and Jordan so good was how they fit together. Jordan was irreplaceable. Pippen would have been difficult to replace but they could have figured something out.

Also, Lebron is 31.

PeterMP

April-21st-2013, 09:13 AM

I really like Pippen. I gave him an honorable mention on this list. But I'm not 100 percent convinced that he did anything that, say, Shane Battier couldn't do - or isn't doing at a pretty advanced age. If Battier was 12 years younger and ended up on the Bulls, he gives them nearly as much flexibility as Pippen did. He doesn't attack the rim as well, but is a much better three point shooter. And he is on the same level defensively.
Artest would actually be the best and complete replacement for Pippen.

Artest, I think, was even better defensively at his peak (a dpoy).

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-21st-2013, 01:10 PM

Artest would actually be the best and complete replacement for Pippen.

Artest, I think, was even better defensively at his peak (a dpoy).

The only problem with that is the having Artest and Rodman on the same team is just a horrible idea, I think.

Destino

April-21st-2013, 01:42 PM

That's insane. Dirk was able to win a title without a second real star. Jordan certainly would have figured it out more than once.

I really like Pippen. I gave him an honorable mention on this list. But I'm not 100 percent convinced that he did anything that, say, Shane Battier couldn't do - or isn't doing at a pretty advanced age. If Battier was 12 years younger and ended up on the Bulls, he gives them nearly as much flexibility as Pippen did. He doesn't attack the rim as well, but is a much better three point shooter. And he is on the same level defensively.

What made Pippen and Jordan so good was how they fit together. Jordan was irreplaceable. Pippen would have been difficult to replace but they could have figured something out.

Also, Lebron is 31.

Shane Battier isn't nearly as good a defender or ball handler. Scottie Pippen was a point forward that averaged over 5 assists per game in his career. Battier has never averaged 3 in a season and mentally I can't see him being given the ball at the top of the key and being asked to do any more than shoot it or immediately pass it.

skinfan2k

April-21st-2013, 01:43 PM

Artest would actually be the best and complete replacement for Pippen.

Artest, I think, was even better defensively at his peak (a dpoy).

artest isn't in the same realm that pippen was as a point forward

stevemcqueen1

April-21st-2013, 02:39 PM

Artest is a different player from Pippen. He's a bigger and stronger body, has more of a bruiser's game. Pippen was more of a super athletic SG/SF type while Artest is solidly a combo forward that should not be playing SG. Artest is probably a better defender at his peak as such since he has the advantage of being able to bang with and defend post players at an elite level in addition to being fast enough to cover smaller players on the perimeter. Pippen was a far better offensive player than Artest though, and that's what gets you paid and makes a HoFer. Not only was he a far better ball handler and passer, he was a far better shooter and scorer. He was creative and he was extremely efficient. Artest was getting pretty good before the brawl but he wasn't an elite scorer even then and his career efficiency numbers aren't in Pippen's league.

Plus Artest never got back to the level he reached prior to the brawl. Pippen is deservedly in the HoF and in the NBA's top 50, Artest hasn't had nearly as good a career.

---------- Post added April-21st-2013 at 03:47 PM ----------

Ron Artest currently outweighs Scottie Pippen by 35 pounds. That's a huge difference. Just walking around, not in game shape, Artest gets up to 270 like he did during he lockout. Last year he was listed at 247 with 8.6% body fat. He is an enormous and powerful SF, almost as bulky and strong as LeBron is. Scottie Pippen was much, much leaner, listing at 210 for most of his career.

JMS

April-21st-2013, 03:53 PM

That's my point. Despite being better than Pippen, the difference in the time they came into the league made a difference in how much they made in the end and small differences over the majority of their career and at the end Pippen out earned him.

My point is that Pippen was underpaid while with the Chicago Bulls. If you look at his salary it jumps dramatically after Pippen leaves the Bulls. Yes Pippen cashed in his last few years in the NBA after a lot of his leverage was gone... But that is really besides the point.. Pippen labored for 11 years with the bulls with a contract which severely was bellow his market value.

Your point is myopically focused on stats taken out of context. Two thoughts which I think you are overlooking..

#1 How many players in the NBA, crucial to winning an NBA title, much less 3 titles... have their salaries GO DOWN after they win 3 on their way to winning 3 more? Pippens did.

Pippen made the same money in 1992 on his way to title #2 as he did in 1998 on his way to #6. He made substancially more money in 1993 than he did in the next 5 years of his contract.

1987-88 Chicago Bulls NBA $725,000
1988-89 Chicago Bulls NBA $575,000
1990-91 Chicago Bulls NBA $765,000 (*)
1991-92 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,770,000 (*)
1992-93 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,425,000 (*)
1993-94 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,075,000
1994-95 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,225,000
1995-96 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,925,000 (*)
1996-97 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,250,000 (*)
1997-98 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,775,000 (*)
(*) Title Years..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

#2 Also I thnink Your comparison with Hakeem's 1994 contact is flawed. Hakeem won the NBA title for the first time in 1994 so when Hakeem was making roughly the same money as Pippen in 1994, Pippen at the time had 3 rings, and Hakeem had Zero.

Look what Houston did for Hakeem after he won 2 titles for them.

1985-86 Houston Rockets NBA $882,500
1987-88 Houston Rockets NBA $1,452,666
1988-89 Houston Rockets NBA $1,677,666
1990-91 Houston Rockets NBA $3,175,000
1991-92 Houston Rockets NBA $3,170,000
1992-93 Houston Rockets NBA $3,170,000
1993-94 Houston Rockets NBA $3,170,000 (*)
1994-95 Houston Rockets NBA $3,169,900 (*)
1995-96 Houston Rockets NBA $5,305,000
1996-97 Houston Rockets NBA $9,655,000
1997-98 Houston Rockets NBA $11,156,000
1998-99 Houston Rockets NBA $12,943,000
1999-00 Houston Rockets NBA $14,302,001
2000-01 Houston Rockets NBA $16,700,000
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

Pippen was severely underpaid thoughout his time with the Bulls. He signed a six year rookie contract which turned out to be a real bargain for the bulls and then the Bulls exersized a 5 year extension to that contract which turned out to be an even bigger bargain for them.

Pippen did recover somewhat for career earnings because of a series of very lucrative contract he signed with Houston and then Portland after his championship days were over. Which doesn't change the fact he sacrificed money in order to win championships with the Bulls,

And this is not to say Pippen should be considered a top five small forward of all time due to this sacrifice. This is to say that the 1.8 seconds Pippen's ego betrayed / worked against the team in game 3 of the eastern conference semi's in 1994; shouldn't overshaddow everthing Pippen did accomplish including six championships.

---------- Post added April-21st-2013 at 05:19 PM ----------

That's insane. Dirk was able to win a title without a second real star. Jordan certainly would have figured it out more than once.

Maybe Maybe not.... But it's a moot point... Jordan doesn't win six without Pippen, IF you want to argue he could win 1 you can do that. It still significantly tarnishes Jordan's career...

---------- Post added April-21st-2013 at 05:22 PM ----------

Artest would actually be the best and complete replacement for Pippen.

Artest was a cancer most of his career... He's still a head case.. Would you really think Jordan's positive influence would be able to offset Artest and Rodmen if they were on the same team? Not a chance.

---------- Post added April-21st-2013 at 05:25 PM ----------

The only problem with that is the having Artest and Rodman on the same team is just a horrible idea, I think.

second that....

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/game-on/2010/04/14/artestx-large.jpg

http://cdn.breitbart.com/mediaserver/Breitbart/Breitbart-Sports/2013/02/25/Dennis%20Rodman%20AP.jpg

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-21st-2013, 08:44 PM

Leborn played pretty well today for an almost 32-year-old, eh JMS?

PeterMP

April-21st-2013, 09:38 PM

My point is that Pippen was underpaid while with the Chicago Bulls. If you look at his salary it jumps dramatically after Pippen leaves the Bulls. Yes Pippen cashed in his last few years in the NBA after a lot of his leverage was gone... But that is really besides the point.. Pippen labored for 11 years with the bulls with a contract which severely was bellow his market value.

Your point is myopically focused on stats taken out of context. Two thoughts which I think you are overlooking..

#1 How many players in the NBA, crucial to winning an NBA title, much less 3 titles... have their salaries GO DOWN after they win 3 on their way to winning 3 more? Pippens did.

Pippen made the same money in 1992 on his way to title #2 as he did in 1998 on his way to #6. He made substancially more money in 1993 than he did in the next 5 years of his contract.

#2 Also I thnink Your comparison with Hakeem's 1994 contact is flawed. Hakeem won the NBA title for the first time in 1994 so when Hakeem was making roughly the same money as Pippen in 1994, Pippen at the time had 3 rings, and Hakeem had Zero.

Look what Houston did for Hakeem after he won 2 titles for them.

Pippen was severely underpaid thoughout his time with the Bulls. He signed a six year rookie contract which turned out to be a real bargain for the bulls and then the Bulls exersized a 5 year extension to that contract which turned out to be an even bigger bargain for them.

1. His contract was NOT undervalued for 11 years. There were a few years it was under valued like most other superstars in the NBA.

2. The argument that Pippen should have been paid more than Hakeem because he won more tittles is unbelievably STUPID. By that logic Bill Cartwright should have made more money. Hakeem was a better player and more important to the success of his team and was barely being paid more than Pippen. And again, take Jordan, after winning 3 NBA titles Jordan was only suppossed to make $4 million. Based on Hakeem's and Jordan's contract at the time, Pippen was being paid resonably well. They got bigger pay days sooner because they were had more years and therefore more contracts into their career. In the end, it paid out for Pippen because he actually got paid more than Hakeem.

3. Pippen SIGNED and extention in 1991 because he wanted the money because he'd already had one back surgery years earlier (after the 1988 season) and was looking for longer term guaranteed money:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/28/sports/sports-of-the-times-pippen-is-right-but-wrong.html

He could have signed a 2 year contract and had a free agent year sooner and then a bigger money contract, but he wanted to be set for life w/ a longer term guaranteed contract at that time.

This is to say that the 1.8 seconds Pippen's ego betrayed / worked against the team in game 3 of the eastern conference semi's in 1994; shouldn't overshaddow everthing Pippen did accomplish including six championships.
And I'm not saying that it should overshadow everything he did either. I'm saying if you are going to compare him to other at least really good players, you have to take into consdieration that those 1.8 seconds into account.

I'm not making an argument that would allow somebody to conclude that BIll Cartwright was a better player/should have been paid more than Pippen because Cartwright never didn't take part in a play because he was mad. He wasn't.

Artest was a cancer most of his career... He's still a head case.. Would you really think Jordan's positive influence would be able to offset Artest and Rodmen if they were on the same team? Not a chance.
Why do you think Artest is a cancer?

I've never heard a teammate say something bad about him.

And what do you call a guy that doesn't take the floor for the last shot because he's unhappy the play isn't called for him?

I generally think that people over estimate Rodman's issues, especially. He only won championships on two different teams. I think he likes attention more than his basketball skills warrented, but I think at the end of the day he understood that nobody care(d) if wasn't playing for really good teams.

---------- Post added April-21st-2013 at 10:54 PM ----------

Artest is a different player from Pippen. He's a bigger and stronger body, has more of a bruiser's game. Pippen was more of a super athletic SG/SF type while Artest is solidly a combo forward that should not be playing SG. Artest is probably a better defender at his peak as such since he has the advantage of being able to bang with and defend post players at an elite level in addition to being fast enough to cover smaller players on the perimeter. Pippen was a far better offensive player than Artest though, and that's what gets you paid and makes a HoFer. Not only was he a far better ball handler and passer, he was a far better shooter and scorer. He was creative and he was extremely efficient. Artest was getting pretty good before the brawl but he wasn't an elite scorer even then and his career efficiency numbers aren't in Pippen's league.
I agree since the brawl Artest was a different player, but the brawl was such a random thing though to say that his career would have taken the same trajectory if had some how had his career how many ever years earlier and with the Bulls through out it seems rather arbitrary.

I don't think he was really that much better at most of those things on offense though.

For example, in terms of 3 point % on a reasonable # of shots Artest (38% on 221 shots and 40% on 383 shots) has beaten Pippen's best twice (37.4%). I have a hard time reconciling those numbers with Pippen really being a better shooter and has a better career number.

I generally think that Pippen's effeciency numbers are over rated because he played with Jordan. Pippen dribbled up the court and threw the ball into the Jordan where he was positioned free throw extended in most cases (basic principles of the triangle). If Jordan felt he was opened and he turns and shots, Pippen gets an assist for doing something that was basically designed into the offense.

Not to mention the double teams that Jordan drew.

Artest never was in that sort of position or for most of his career played with a player that drew double teams like Jordan.

Destino

April-21st-2013, 11:28 PM

PeterMP

April-22nd-2013, 10:08 AM

22points .491 fg% 8.7 rebounds 5.6 assists... Without Jordan. (93-94)

Artest never managed that fg% or the rebound assist numbers in a single season. Not to mention the fact that his ball handling is crap and Pippen was a point forward. Saying he just dribbled up and handed the ball to Jordan is ridiculous.
So in response to a post about a player's offenseive effeciency, you decide to post absolute numbers.

The two years w/o Jordan (the one year Jordan came back at the end of the year, but mostly no Jordan), Pippen had an offensive proffeciency rating of 109 and 110. The year before Jordan left he had a bad year (108 was he hurt for part of that year?), but the two years before that he had a 114. Jordan comes back and he goes 116, 115, and 112. You can see similar things with is oWS numbers.

He moves to Portland and, he's down to 104 (and does 104, 105, 104 the next 3 years).

Artest has been regularly over 100 in years he's played lot's of games on good teams, including 108 once so certainly not as good as Pippen w/ Jordan and not quite where Pippen was w/o Jordan at his peak, but pretty close.

The fact of the matter is what I said was the Bull's offense. Pippen brought the ball up passed to Jordan and Jordan (Jordan was the ball point), a post player (normally Cartwright in the early years), and another player made a triangle on one side of the floor (in the early years mostly Paxson, but more Pippen in the later years), and the other two players went to the opposite side where in the early years Pippen was in the corner opposite the "triangle" mostly.

And even when Jordan went to play baseball, they continued to play the triangle and Pippen did not take the position as the ball point primarily.

And when they tried to differ Pippen's role, he struggled (most famously during game 3 of the finals against the Bulls when the Jazz switched Russell onto Jordan and Jeff Hornacheck (so the shorter, smaller, older, and slower player) onto Pippen, and the Bulls responded by trying to Pippen in the post).

The end result is that the Bulls gave up trying to post Pippen on Hornacheck for game 4 and went back to their normal triangle with Jordan still as the ball point even though he was still being guarded by Russel and Pippen still was being guarded by the older, smaller, and less atheletic Hornacek.

And I didn't say that's all he did, but it was a large part of their game, and it does distort his numbers with respect to a normal small forward that plays with a normal point guard that the coach is comfortable handleing the ball.

I'm not saying that Pippen wasn't a good player, shouldn't be in the HOF, or that Artest should be.

I am saying that Artest, especially earlier in his career, was a similar player to Pippen.

Now, he never asked to the point forward so maybe he would have failed at that. I don't know, but I don't think so, and I do think people tend to over rate what Pippen did as the point forward, and think of him as playing the role of a traditional pg.

Pippen wasn't a PG and didn't really run the offense the way a normal true point does, but he did enough basics to initiate the offense (pass it to Jordan as the ball point) that it distorts his offensive numbers compared to other traditional SF that weren't the point forward through no fault of their own (they played with a traditional point guard that could easily and well get the ball up the floor).

Of the players, I know, if I had to pick a guy that would most easily fit into those Bull teams w/o adjusting their offensive and defensive strategies, it would be Artest.

I think they could have won with other players instead of Pippen (e.g. Paul Pierce), but those people would have required more adjustments.

JMS

April-22nd-2013, 01:14 PM

1. His contract was NOT undervalued for 11 years. There were a few years it was under valued like most other superstars in the NBA..

The fact that when Pippen's rookie contact was over he immediately signed with another team for 5x's as much kind of suggests his contract was undervalued. The fact that over the next few years after that his compensation went up to 10x even though his championship days were behind him... kind of suggests you are wrong. The fact that his salary went down as he won more championships again is a tell tail he was undervalued. The FACT that he was probable one of the top 5 players in the league, and was the sixth highest paid player on the bulls championship season of 1998 again kinda suggests he was under paid. The fact he wasn't even making starter money on a horrable team like the Wizards in 1998should have clued you in too.

Clearly if none of these facts are persuasive to you, you just are unable to impartially evaluate the data being too wedded to your aformentioned position...

Yes he signed a six year rookie contract... and yes that contract allowed the bulls to exersize an option to extend it for 5 more years... Yes he did that. But contracts which are so grossly lopsided like that are overturned all the time.
Pippen could have very very easily held out and got more realistic compenation. I mean if Jerry Kraus was willing to pay Ron Harper and Toni Kukoc nearly twice what they were actually paying Pippen, Pippen certainly could have grumbled and complained and sat out and broke that deal. Would it have cost Chicago a few championships... likely depending upon what a rock head Kraus turned out to be.... Pippen had a very very rare and important career in the NBA. He could have gone anywhere and made more money than the Bulls as demonstrated by the fact he ultimately did. He also could have signed a more reasonable deal and stayed with the Bulls. That he finished up and honored his contract was selfless. It was an honorable thing to do. I think Pippens career with the Bulls was pretty honorable except for that 1.8 seconds, in a game the Bulls ended up winning.

Predicto

April-22nd-2013, 02:17 PM

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-22nd-2013, 02:23 PM

After reading all of this thread, I'm a big Pippen fan. No big enough to put him at the top of this list, but enough to say he still makes my top 5 (and Dr. J and Dominique Wilkins do not, even though both were exciting as hell to watch).

What about Kevin McCale?

Predicto

April-22nd-2013, 02:24 PM

What about Kevin McCale?

MkHail was a power forward

(I think this joke is played out....)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-22nd-2013, 02:32 PM

MkHail was a power forward

(I think this joke is played out....)

It probably is. I will not, however, let up on the Lebron is 31 dig.

Predicto

April-22nd-2013, 02:39 PM

It probably is. I will not, however, let up on the Lebron is 31 dig.

Lebron isn't 31st - He's No. 1 on my list.

http://i.imgur.com/IfXDXqU.png?1 (http://imgur.com/IfXDXqU)

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-22nd-2013, 03:19 PM

Lebron isn't 31st - He's No. 1 on my list.

http://i.imgur.com/IfXDXqU.png?1 (http://imgur.com/IfXDXqU)

No....no....no....

Last week or perhaps two weeks ago, JMS declared that Lebron is 31 and only has one title as a second banana. It's further proof to my theory that he has actually never watched an NBA game. That and not knowing anything about Bernard King's 1984 season or apparently that he even had a career prior to the Wizards.

JMS

April-22nd-2013, 04:01 PM

I find it hard to compare stats when a team plays an offensive scheme (the Phil Jackson triangle) that is completely different than everyone else in the league was playing at the time. Pippen was the key to the effectiveness of that offense, and had a lot of responsibility that small forwards usually don't have.

After reading all of this thread, I'm a big Pippen fan. No big enough to put him at the top of this list, but enough to say he still makes my top 5 (and Dr. J and Dominique Wilkins do not, even though both were exciting as hell to watch).

I think you make a strong point for Pippen..... I find it very hard to drop Dr. Jay though. As good as Pippen was, he was still the second best player on the Bulls, and with everybody concentrating on Mike, it's very difficult to place him above guys who were the leaders of their team and still had better numbers than Pippen did.

I mean Dr. Jay, was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan. He was the guy that the NBA merged with the ABA to get. He was the guy who's poster every kid had in his bedroom a decade before they had Jordan's.

In Favor Of Pippen

Dr. Jay----------------------------------------------------------Scottie Pippen
- 3 NBA/ABA championship teams -------------------6 NBA Championship teams
- 1 ABA All-Defensive Team selection --------------8 Time all NBA All Defense Team
- 7 in NBA/ABA all-time in steals ----------------------6 in NBA/ ABA all-time steals

In favor of Julius Erving..

Dr. Jay----------------------------------------------------------Scottie Pippen
- four-time NBA/ABA MVP-------------------------------0 NBA MVP's
- 2× ABA Playoffs MVP (1974, 1976)----------------0 NBA Playoffs / Finals MVPS
- 2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1977, 1\983) ------NBA All Star Game MVP (84)
- 16-time NBA/ABA All-Star ---------------------------- 7 - time NBA All Star
- 12-time All-NBA/ABA selection ----------------------3 - Time All NBA first team
- 6 all-time NBA/ABA scoring leader --------------54th NBA/ABA scoring leader
-16 Year NBA/ABA career ----------------------------17 year NBA career

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-22nd-2013, 04:12 PM

JMS

April-22nd-2013, 04:18 PM

No....no....no....

Last week or perhaps two weeks ago, JMS declared that Lebron is 31 and only has one title as a second banana. It's further proof to my theory that he has actually never watched an NBA game. That and not knowing anything about Bernard King's 1984 season or apparently that he even had a career prior to the Wizards.

I put Lebron in my top 5.... I do think it's weak he had to go to a proven winner to win his championship vs win one in Cleveland. But that argument was used against him being ranked higher in my top 5... You put him #1 or at least argued for that, right now after 1 championship... also you put Isaiah Thompson as the best point guard in league history... and John Stockton only making the Dream Team because he was white.... So I think I won this thread.

I never said McCale was a small forward, we were discussing / comparing the second best players on perenial championship teams... Worthy, McCale, and Pippen.. and I was saying in my book,

Oh what's the difference you can't reason with a 3 year old.

Lombardi's_kid_brother

April-22nd-2013, 04:20 PM

I put Lebron in my top 5.... I do think it's weak he had to go to a proven winner to win his championship vs win one in Cleveland. But that argument was to against him being ranked higher in my top 5...

Oh what's the difference you can't reason with a 3 year old.

You said he was 31. True or False.

You also said that Bernard King never did anything in the playoffs. True or False.

You also said that Alcindor won 4 NCAA Titles. True or False.

You are holding yourself out as a basketball expert here. Explain these errors.

mcsluggo

April-22nd-2013, 04:33 PM

I put Lebron in my top 5.... I do think it's weak he had to go to a proven winner to win his championship vs win one in Cleveland. .....

i don't understand how you can simultaneusly argue that Jordan wouldn't've won ANY championships without Pippin, AND that Lebron James is a loser because he couldn't win it all when he was basically all-alone in Cleavland???

---------- Post added April-22nd-2013 at 09:35 PM ----------

You said he was 31. True or False.

You also said that Bernard King never did anything in the playoffs. True or False.

You also said that Alcindor won 4 NCAA Titles. True or False.

You are holding yourself out as a basketball expert here. Explain these errors.

you are getting too worked up and nit-picky here... none of THOSE facts really matter for beans.
the fact is that you and JMS have become the married couple from "war of the roses". you two should only be able to communicate with each other through third parties (i volunteer the mods :) ) or else buildings and houses are going to start exploding.

Kosher Ham

April-22nd-2013, 04:51 PM

No disrespect intended.Seriously.

I think JMS has an issue that many or most us do not have.

I am starting to think he does not press "post' on his replies or statements.

The typos seem to be odd, considering the posts.

Monte51Coleman

April-22nd-2013, 04:55 PM

I put Lebron in my top 5.... I do think it's weak he had to go to a proven winner to win his championship vs win one in Cleveland.

What do you mean by a proven winner? The organization- because it won in 2006? Wade because he'd won a championship?

The Miami Heat in the years between the 2006 Championship and Lebron's arrival accomplished the following:

2007- Lost in the first round of the playoffs in 4 games

2008- Didn't make the playoffs

2009- Lost in the first round of the playoffs in 7 games

2010- Lost in the first round of the playoffs in 5 games

PeterMP

April-22nd-2013, 05:52 PM

The fact that when Pippen's rookie contact was over he immediately signed with another team for 5x's as much kind of suggests his contract was undervalued. The fact that over the next few years after that his compensation went up to 10x even though his championship days were behind him... kind of suggests you are wrong. The fact that his salary went down as he won more championships again is a tell tail he was undervalued. The FACT that he was probable one of the top 5 players in the league, and was the sixth highest paid player on the bulls championship season of 1998 again kinda suggests he was under paid. The fact he wasn't even making starter money on a horrable team like the Wizards in 1998should have clued you in too.

Clearly if none of these facts are persuasive to you, you just are unable to impartially evaluate the data being too wedded to your aformentioned position...

Yes he signed a six year rookie contract... and yes that contract allowed the bulls to exersize an option to extend it for 5 more years... Yes he did that.
His rookie contract didn't allow the Bulls to exercise and option.

Pippen signed a new extension prior to the 1991 season.

It wasn't a option that was built into his rookie contract. It was a new and separate extension that Pippen wanted that year.

It wasn't undervalued at the time as because that year he would make only $500,000 less than Jordan, and even the year that Jordan was out he was making only about $1 million than Jordan and only $100,000 less than Hakeem.

I believe in 1991 when he signed it, in terms of total value, it was the largest contract in NBA history, though that's by memory and due to the number of years involved.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/28/sports/sports-of-the-times-pippen-is-right-but-wrong.html

Predicto

April-22nd-2013, 06:12 PM

Predicto

April-22nd-2013, 06:31 PM

I think you make a strong point for Pippen..... I find it very hard to drop Dr. Jay though. As good as Pippen was, he was still the second best player on the Bulls, and with everybody concentrating on Mike, it's very difficult to place him above guys who were the leaders of their team and still had better numbers than Pippen did.

I mean Dr. Jay, was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan. He was the guy that the NBA merged with the ABA to get. He was the guy who's poster every kid had in his bedroom a decade before they had Jordan's.

Dr J. was also overrated because of his awesome flashy style. He was a very entertaining player who thrived during a weak time when the talent was diluted between two leagues. His stats were astronomical in the run and gun ABA, but dropped drastically once he joined the NBA (although they did go partway back up again eventually). He didn't play much defense, much less play defense like Jordan. His outside shot was mediocre. He only won one NBA title, and that was as the second banana on a stacked team where Moses Malone was the main man.

Jordan and Erving both could defy gravity, but other than that I don't think they compare very well.

PeterMP

April-22nd-2013, 09:27 PM

Dr J. was also overrated because of his awesome flashy style. He was a very entertaining player who thrived during a weak time when the talent was diluted between two leagues. His stats were astronomical in the run and gun ABA, but dropped drastically once he joined the NBA (although they did go partway back up again eventually). He didn't play much defense, much less play defense like Jordan. His outside shot was mediocre. He only won one NBA title, and that was as the second banana on a stacked team where Moses Malone was the main man.

Jordan and Erving both could defy gravity, but other than that I don't think they compare very well.
My problem is I think Bird, Lebron, and Pierce are all better than Pippen. I don't remember Dr. J at his best so I won't comment on him.

And I think Wilkins is REALLY close if not better.

(In these conversations, I try and go to one of the players signature games/series and what I think would happen if you put the other guy there. For Wilkins, I go back to that game 7 against the Celtics and where Wilkins dropped 40+ and ask in that series what do the Hawks do with Pippen at SF instead of Wilkins, and I don't think the series is that close w/ Pippen instead of Wilkins. I don't think Pippen, Rivers, Willis, Wittman, and Rollins can play with DJ, Ainge, Bird, Parish, and McHale (looking at that game Whittman is the Hawks 2nd leading scorer w/ 22, while the Celtics got 34 from Bird and 33 from McHale) much less lose by 2 in a game 7.).

It is harder to do going the other way with Pippen because I don't know how well Wilkins could have played the point forward position, but I suspect that if I had Jordan and Wilkins, I wouldn't put Wilkins at the point forward so I'd be playing a different scheme, and I'd still win a ton of games.)

And I don't think I've seen 4 of the top 5 SF in league history and certainly not 5 of the top 6 (in no order Bird, Lebron, Pierce, X, Pippen, and Wilkins).

I think people mis-remeber how great Pippen was like, and "remember" he guarded Magic for large stretches and even most of games in the 1991 finals.

stevemcqueen1

April-22nd-2013, 10:55 PM

Dr J. was also overrated because of his awesome flashy style. He was a very entertaining player who thrived during a weak time when the talent was diluted between two leagues. His stats were astronomical in the run and gun ABA, but dropped drastically once he joined the NBA (although they did go partway back up again eventually). He didn't play much defense, much less play defense like Jordan. His outside shot was mediocre. He only won one NBA title, and that was as the second banana on a stacked team where Moses Malone was the main man.

Jordan and Erving both could defy gravity, but other than that I don't think they compare very well.

I don't know that it's fair to judge Dr. J in the way you're doing--by the standards of Jordan and the post 80's NBA.

Dr. J was a product of his time, like every player. He didn't play defense because nobody really played defense then. They didn't know how, it just wasn't really done. Playing expert high level defense just wasn't really conceptualized in that era. Is it fair to kill him for not being a great defender when he played in an era where that didn't matter?

He was flashy because that's how the great players played--it's how everyone knew they were great. The game was far less sophisticated in his day. Pre-merger pro basketball still had that whiff of semi-pro Harlem Globetrotters ball to it. Showmanship WAS a big part of the equation of being a great player. Especially in the ABA. That stuff seems irrelevant in the more sophisticated and professional NBA that exists today. But it was certainly important then.

Dr. J changed the game. He changed the look of the game in a way only Jordan matched. He's probably the second most important player in the history of pro basketball. That factors into his greatness. Same for George Mikan and Oscar Robertson, who don't hold up as well when judged against modern standards either.