Zell Miller comes out of the closet

[Burgold]

So, is it a choice to be a democrat or republican? Why doesn't he come all the way out of the closet and declare himself a flaming republican? Is he ahamed?

(Meant tongue in cheek)

[Burgold]

Is he ashamed?

[Thiebear]

DINO...

Jim Jeffers did it for a seat of power on a comittee: Horrible
Zel Miller did it cause he is old school Democrat that is more conservative than republicans today....

[codeorama]

I don't have a problem with what Miller did. If that's what he believes, then so be it.
I think Kerry sucks too.

But I think Bush sucks as well.

[Destino]

Zell is not a democrat. He calls himself one and that's about it. He doesn't meet with Democratic Party senate caucus, he sits in the republican one. He votes with his party something like 9% of the time. He can cry and complain about what he feels is wrong with the party all he wants, but if you look at his voting record you can see the only change has been in him.

He sold out to get the spot light when his own party rejected his turn to social conservatism.

[Kilmer17]

Simply not true. Zell Miller has a record of Democratic voting both as Governor of GA and in the Senate. He gave the keynote speech at the DNC 12 years ago and as recently as 3 years ago introduced John Kerry at a reception in GA.

He hasnt changed his stance at all. The Dem party has.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Simply not true. Zell Miller has a record of Democratic voting both as Governor of GA and in the Senate. He gave the keynote speech at the DNC 12 years ago and as recently as 3 years ago introduced John Kerry at a reception in GA.

He hasnt changed his stance at all. The Dem party has.

Check his score card ratings from liberal and conservative groups. You'll see what I mean.

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by Destino


Say it all you want but even a quick glane at his voting record will show you that he went from a democrat to a republican in the last few years. If you took his voting record during the time surrounding his Clinton speech and compared it to today and left off the names, you'd think they were two different people.

He's also gone a long way from the man that wanted the confederate cross removed from the Georgia state flag. Now he's so conservative that only the most right leaning republicans can claim to be more so then he is.

You disregard Kerrys voting record with smoke and mirrors and then point to Zmillers... :D :notworthy
you are the master...

[Kilmer17]

His voting record has remained the same. What has changed is the voting pattern of the Dem party.

And that's precisely why he spoke out against them last night.

[Funkyalligator]

Who cares what party he is in....as long as he has stongly held beliefs...thats fine....just as long as he isn't a lying hypocrit like most politicians....

[Destino]

Originally posted by Thiebear


You disregard Kerrys voting record with smoke and mirrors and then point to Zmillers... :D :notworthy
you are the master...
Nice try, but unlike Zell I'm not distorting voting records to prove a point, the guy is a social conservative and he admits it himself. But then agian why are we debating if this guy who just gave a keynote speech on the RNC is a democrat?

I mean, the dude sit with the GOP in party senate meeting and not the Democrats? He can call himself whatever he wants but his actions speak for him.

[docdru]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Simply not true. Zell Miller has a record of Democratic voting both as Governor of GA and in the Senate. He gave the keynote speech at the DNC 12 years ago and as recently as 3 years ago introduced John Kerry at a reception in GA.

He hasnt changed his stance at all. The Dem party has.

Hey Kilmer, didn't he introduce Kerry three years ago as an American hero?

[Kilmer17]

Why do we debate anything? It's fun.

Im certain that his rating from all groups will show he's more conservative. Because those ratings compare the records to each other. So if he stays the same and the rest of the Dems go hard left, he looks right by comparison.

It doesnt matter really. The speech did what it was intented to do.

[docdru]

Originally posted by Kilmer17

It doesnt matter really. The speech did what it was intented to do.

Show that Zell Miller is an idiot?

BURN IN ZELL KILMER!!!

[Hitman56]

What the speech was intended to do was convince middle america that: here's an average democrat who loves Bush. What nobody says is that this guy is essentially a republican (I don't have the stats, but I think he votes with the republicans about 100% of the time).

If the Kerry campaign doesn't at least acknowledge that Miller is not a typical democrat, then they are in more trouble than I thought.

[Kilmer17]

Brilliant analysis.

[docdru]

Originally posted by docdru


Hey Kilmer, didn't he introduce Kerry three years ago as an American hero?

You never answered my question Kilmer

[Kilmer17]

Actually, I said it before you asked it. He introduced him 3 years ago in GA.

He also commended him last night for his service in Vietnam. As has every speaker.

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Hitman56
What the speech was intended to do was convince middle america that: here's an average democrat who loves Bush. What nobody says is that this guy is essentially a republican (I don't have the stats, but I think he votes with the republicans about 100% of the time).

If the Kerry campaign doesn't at least acknowledge that Miller is not a typical democrat, then they are in more trouble than I thought.


Although Miller has swayed more right than usual, I wonder if you feel Kerry is a "typical" democrat in which to measure Miller against?

I don't, personally. I think Miller is really P/O'ed that his party was hijacked by the liberals and in the direction they have taken.

[Destino]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
It doesnt matter really. The speech did what it was intented to do.
Yeah the speech intended to fool voters into thinking the party who stands for....

--constitutional amendments added banning gay marriage and abortion.
--consumption tax
--Opposes dealing with the UN and other international organizations
--Renamed food with french in the name to "freedom"
--Oppose stem cell research
--Opposes the existence of unions
--Opposes loans for college
--Supports creationism taught in science class

....is a moderate middle ground party.


Truth is the GOP is a radical as ever and tied to groups like the Christian Coalition and Reconstructionist movement which make moveon.org look like nothing special.

[Kilmer17]

constitutional amendments added banning gay marriage and abortion.

Do all Democrats oppose these ideas? I do personally, but as I've said numerous times, issues like these mean very little to me in this election.


consumption tax Yep. I think it's a great idea.


Opposes dealing with the UN and other international organizations Except for the fact that we DO deal with the UN and NATO and numerous other organizations. The difference is that the GOP will not give up our sovreignty to those organizations.


Renamed food with french in the name to "freedom" Now that's just silly. I know you dont think the GOP did this.


Opposes the dept. of eduaction for being wasteful, doesn't bat an eye at the DoD waste. Single largest increase in education in a generation. And what's wrong with reform if it stops waste? Just because another area needs to be trimmed as well, doesnt mean we should ignore them all.


Oppose stem cell research Simply not true. They oppose using Govt Funds for stem cell research. There is a difference.

Zell got the base riled up. That was his job. He will help turnout in Southern Senate and House races. And he will broaden Bush's lead in those states so Bush wont have to spend money there (ie- VA, SC, AL, etc).

Zell's job wasnt to sway the true "undecideds".

[docdru]

Originally posted by skin-n-vegas



Although Miller has swayed more right than usual, I wonder if you feel Kerry is a "typical" democrat in which to measure Miller against?

I don't, personally. I think Miller is really P/O'ed that his party was hijacked by the liberals and in the direction they have taken.

So then Democrats should be the party of conservatives and republicans should be the party of consevatives?

Liberals "hijacked" the republican party party back in the 60's. That was half a century ago. If any party has gone more to the extreme it's the republicans.

[pr11fan]

Please, Democrats have gone miles further to the left as a whole just from 2000 to now. I disagreed with Clinton's morals and perjury but at least he came across across as a moderate democrat. The party just lost it after the election and went about as far left as could be and let the far far left like Kerry and Edwards take over the party. I have a question for liberals, with all this talk of Kerry wanting coalitions and help from the UN before going to war, what was his excuse for the gulf war. I have to wonder if didn't think that war was justified what war would be justified to him?? Just wondering

[jbooma]

destino you can be a democrat and vote republican, but no according to you have to be a certain way or thats it, pathetic

i vote republican 75% of the time but i still agree with democratic views

face it not all democrats are as left as you and docdru :D :)

[gbear]

pr11fan,

this is where I have a problem with those who think that UN support isn't a good thing worth much effort. You equate trying to get UN help as giving up sovreignty. Why?

Simply put, Kerry puts more emphasis on the U.N. than Bush. Niether of them is advocating turning over the government to the UN. Niether is for withdrawl from the U.N. Why is there an insistance on seeing things as all or nothing, black or white on this board?

Having UN approval does not in and of itself justify anything. That doesn't mean that when we have a cause we should not listen very attentively to what the U.N. says. In Iraq (this time around) we did not. Much of our "evidence" was looked at skeptically. Were other countries wrong to be skeptical? It doesn't look that way now.

The difference between the two where the U.N. is concerned seems to be how much wieght they are willing to give it. As I see it in the cases you mentioned (Iraq I and Iraq II), the mistake made by Kerry and Bush is the same. Both disagreed and went against the U.N. The difference in canidates is what each is liekly to do in the future. Has Bush learned anything? I was happy to see he finally admits there have been some mistakes made...but I don't get the sense he thinks how he handled the U.N. was one of them.

[pr11fan]

I don't equate the two, I certainly think UN support is something that should be pursued extensively before going to war, but ultimately it seemed to me that Bush was willing to put the security of the US over UN support. Which is believe is the right thing, we would like their support of the UN but ultimately we can't put our nations security in the hands of other nations particularly following the events of 9/11. As far as the differences between the disagreements with the UN I would agree there is some similarity but to me I would rather be overaggressive and feel comfortable knowing Bush's top priority is protection of the US than I would with Kerry wondering how bad would the circumstances have to be for him to go to war to protect our nation, Especially considering all of the criteria had been met for the gulf war and he still voted against it.

[Joe Sick]

1) The non-partisan National Journal’s 2003 ratings place Zell’s voting record as more conservative than 23 Republican senators and more conservative than 73% of all Senators
National Journal, National Journal Group Inc. Friday, Feb. 27, 2004

2) Zell refuses to caucus with Senate Democrats
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/zell.zingers.ap/index.html

3) When Zell was elected Governor of Georgia he was pro-choice, but has since announced he is anti-choice, and has made a comparison between a woman's right to choose and a plantation owner's control of his slaves
"The elite, arrogant plantation owner believed his own self-interest to be more important than the slaves' self-interest," Miller writes. "A woman who favors abortion believes her self-interest comes before the unborn's self-interest. In each case, th e judgment is a moral one, made deliberately. What could be more arrogant than to believe one has the right to designate a life not worth living?" http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17052

4) Three years ago, Zell called John Kerry “one of this nation’s authentic heroes”
... As for John Kerry, Miller has found kind words for Democratic presidential nominee, calling him "one of this nation's authentic heroes" during the Georgia Democratic Party's Jefferson Jackson Dinner three years ago. "Early in his Senate career in 1986, Jo hn signed on to the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Deficit Reduction Bill, and he fought for balanced budgets before it was considered politically correct for Democrats to do so. John has worked to strengthen our military, reform public education, boost the econom y and protect the environment.” http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/zell.zingers.ap/index.html

5) ...but Zell endorsed George W. Bush in 2004 http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/309nqnas.asp

6) Zell questions the judgement of anyone who was critical of the war in Iraq
“You know, if some of these folks have been living back to that April night in 1775 when Paul Revere came riding through, saying the British are coming, the British are coming... If Howard Dean was living back then he would have yelled out the window, 'Sh ut up I'm trying to get some sleep in here.”
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/10/30/101405.shtml

7) Zell Miller supported the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
Ruy Texiera describes a chapter from Zell Millers's book that talks about taxes: "This is a chapter anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, he of the "starve the beast" school of good government, would have been proud to put his name on. For Miller, tax cuts a re always good. ("I've never seen one too big for me to swallow without water.") It doesn't matter if the rich get most of the tax cuts--after all, the rich pay most of the taxes! If the tax cuts drastically cut the amount of money which government can sp end on programs, well, that's fine, since government would just waste the money anyway. Government is always inefficient and corporations are always efficient--anyone remember Enron?--so the more money we give to business the better. Besides, Jack Kennedy cut taxes." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0401.teixeira.html

8) Zell was the only Democrat to vote to approve the conference report on the fiscal 2004 budget resolution, which allows up to $550 billion in new tax cuts during the next 10 years. (the vote was 50-50; Vice President Cheney broke the tie)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00134

9) Zell cast the deciding vote (and only Democrat to side with Republicans) not to extend unemployment benefits
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00199

[herrmag]

Originally posted by Destino
Zell is not a democrat. He calls himself one and that's about it. He doesn't meet with Democratic Party senate caucus, he sits in the republican one. He votes with his party something like 9% of the time. He can cry and complain about what he feels is wrong with the party all he wants, but if you look at his voting record you can see the only change has been in him.

He sold out to get the spot light when his own party rejected his turn to social conservatism.

No disrespect, but he is DEFINITELY an old-school democrat. Just because he is not as left as most does not mean he is anything other than a dem. Around the late 60's, liberals took over the party. However, there are others like him still in the dem party, granted, they would never speak out the way he did.

But my question to everyone that is upset with him:

Should you blindly follow and approve of a candidate simply because he is in your party, despite the fact that you feel he is not qualified?

I hope that nobody answers yes. If you find yourself feeling that way, perhaps you should consider a permanent change of address. I have heard people whine and moan that we need more than 2 parties, yet everyone gets upset if the people in those two parties don't "toe the line".

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Jackson's Ward
1) The non-partisan National Journal’s 2003 ratings place Zell’s voting record as more conservative than 23 Republican senators and more conservative than 73% of all Senators
National Journal, National Journal Group Inc. Friday, Feb. 27, 2004

2) Zell refuses to caucus with Senate Democrats
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/zell.zingers.ap/index.html

3) When Zell was elected Governor of Georgia he was pro-choice, but has since announced he is anti-choice, and has made a comparison between a woman's right to choose and a plantation owner's control of his slaves
"The elite, arrogant plantation owner believed his own self-interest to be more important than the slaves' self-interest," Miller writes. "A woman who favors abortion believes her self-interest comes before the unborn's self-interest. In each case, th e judgment is a moral one, made deliberately. What could be more arrogant than to believe one has the right to designate a life not worth living?" http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=17052

4) Three years ago, Zell called John Kerry “one of this nation’s authentic heroes”
... As for John Kerry, Miller has found kind words for Democratic presidential nominee, calling him "one of this nation's authentic heroes" during the Georgia Democratic Party's Jefferson Jackson Dinner three years ago. "Early in his Senate career in 1986, Jo hn signed on to the Gramm-Rudman-Hollings Deficit Reduction Bill, and he fought for balanced budgets before it was considered politically correct for Democrats to do so. John has worked to strengthen our military, reform public education, boost the econom y and protect the environment.” http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/zell.zingers.ap/index.html

5) ...but Zell endorsed George W. Bush in 2004 http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/309nqnas.asp

6) Zell questions the judgement of anyone who was critical of the war in Iraq
“You know, if some of these folks have been living back to that April night in 1775 when Paul Revere came riding through, saying the British are coming, the British are coming... If Howard Dean was living back then he would have yelled out the window, 'Sh ut up I'm trying to get some sleep in here.”
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/10/30/101405.shtml

7) Zell Miller supported the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
Ruy Texiera describes a chapter from Zell Millers's book that talks about taxes: "This is a chapter anti-tax activist Grover Norquist, he of the "starve the beast" school of good government, would have been proud to put his name on. For Miller, tax cuts a re always good. ("I've never seen one too big for me to swallow without water.") It doesn't matter if the rich get most of the tax cuts--after all, the rich pay most of the taxes! If the tax cuts drastically cut the amount of money which government can sp end on programs, well, that's fine, since government would just waste the money anyway. Government is always inefficient and corporations are always efficient--anyone remember Enron?--so the more money we give to business the better. Besides, Jack Kennedy cut taxes." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0401.teixeira.html

8) Zell was the only Democrat to vote to approve the conference report on the fiscal 2004 budget resolution, which allows up to $550 billion in new tax cuts during the next 10 years. (the vote was 50-50; Vice President Cheney broke the tie)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00134

9) Zell cast the deciding vote (and only Democrat to side with Republicans) not to extend unemployment benefits
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00199
















That's all great information JW!

Now please tell me what it has to do with our discussion?

What is the issue with Miller from the liberal perspective? Has he done anything other than follow his heart on his core beliefs? Isnt a primary liberal tenet to respect the beliefs of all, even if you disagree?

The common modern liberal is not a liberal at all. Most so called "liberals" these days are just the opposite and exhibit those same closed minded traits of intolerance that true liberals are fighting against.


Are you a true liberal or a pseudo-liberal of the current age?

[DieselPwr44]

. I have heard people whine and moan that we need more than 2 parties, yet everyone gets upset if the people in those two parties don't "toe the line".


Amen!!!!!!

[Joe Sick]

Originally posted by skin-n-vegas
That's all great information JW!

Now please tell me what it has to do with our discussion?

What is the issue with Miller from the liberal perspective? Has he done anything other than follow his heart on his core beliefs? Isnt a primary liberal tenet to respect the beliefs of all, even if you disagree?

The common modern liberal is not a liberal at all. Most so called "liberals" these days are just the opposite and exhibit those same closed minded traits of intolerance that true liberals are fighting against.

Are you a true liberal or a pseudo-liberal of the current age?

The reason this has to do with this discussion is that everyone is surprised that Zell is with the Republicans. This is no surprise! Look at his record. He doesn't follow the Democrat platform. If he switched parties he would just be another GOP yes-man.

Yes, he should follow his heart. But his "core beliefs" (snicker) have changed, like the flip-flop on abortion and the smashing of Kerry when he had earlier praised him.

Nice try with "pseudo-liberal" vs. true liberal question. It's funny, when you said "closed minded traits of intolerance" I figured you were talking about the Republicans.

The main question I have is: What is Zell getting out of it?

Any guesses on where he'll be working when he leaves office? Carlyle Group or Republican Lobbying Firm? :puke:

[DieselPwr44]

So let me get this straight. There's no conservative wing in the Democratic Party and to be a Dem, you must espouse whatever policies Terry McAuliffe tells you to?

[Predicto]

Umm, no. But if you vote entirely with the general Republican line and never with the general Democratic line, and you caucus only with the Republicans and never with the Democrats, then you probably are a Republican and not a Democrat. Or else the terms mean nothing.

[herrmag]

Originally posted by Predicto
Umm, no. But if you vote entirely with the general Republican line and never with the general Democratic line, and you caucus only with the Republicans and never with the Democrats, then you probably are a Republican and not a Democrat. Or else the terms mean nothing.

But this board has only shown a few votes he sided w/ Repub's on and, lets be honest, I'm sure he's voted on a great many things other than what we've talked about on this thread.

[jbooma]

Originally posted by Predicto
Umm, no. But if you vote entirely with the general Republican line and never with the general Democratic line, and you caucus only with the Republicans and never with the Democrats, then you probably are a Republican and not a Democrat. Or else the terms mean nothing.

he hasn't voted entirely with the republican side :doh:

[TheSteve]

I just find it insanely amusing that the information people are using to discredit Miller is the same thing they are refusing to acknowledge with Kerry. Show some consistency, not just when it backs up your opinion.

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Jackson's Ward


The reason this has to do with this discussion is that everyone is surprised that Zell is with the Republicans. This is no surprise! Look at his record. He doesn't follow the Democrat platform. If he switched parties he would just be another GOP yes-man.

Yes, he should follow his heart. But his "core beliefs" (snicker) have changed, like the flip-flop on abortion and the smashing of Kerry when he had earlier praised him.

Nice try with "pseudo-liberal" vs. true liberal question. It's funny, when you said "closed minded traits of intolerance" I figured you were talking about the Republicans.

The main question I have is: What is Zell getting out of it?

Any guesses on where he'll be working when he leaves office? Carlyle Group or Republican Lobbying Firm? :puke:


Wrong on so many levels!

1. I didnt see any surprise in this thread that Miller has sided with the GOP.

2. You have failed to show anything but the 2 issues that he supposidly flip-flopped on, plus you always seem to condone thge Kerry Flip-flops religiously. Which is it?

3. Nice try back at you for not answering a real question on whether the modern "liberal" is a true liberal by definition. You must still be thinking. The line about percieved Republican intolerance that you said only reinforces my belief that most modern liberals are just as (or more) intolerant as they accuse GOP'ers of being.

4. Miller is retireing to spend time with his family, not to take ANY job. You woul;d be better off getting fully informed before you spew your nonsense next time.

3.

[Joe Sick]

"John Kerry has fought against government waste and worked hard to bring some
* accountability to Washington…He fought for balanced budgets before it was considered
* politically correct for Democrats to do so. John has worked to strengthen our military,
* reform public education, boost the economy and protect the environment."
*** --Zell Miller, praising Kerry's voting record in a 2001 speech,** Attribution

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by Jackson's Ward
"My job tonight is an easy one: to present to you one of this nation's authentic heroes,*one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders* and a good friend. John has worked to strengthen our military,* reform public education, boost the economy and protect the environment.
****** -- Zell Miller, January 03


and? Pssst: (read my post and you will see that I acknowledged this quote once already.)


Hey how about you cover something new now? Maybe a shot at answering # 3. I a m t y p i n g v e r y s l o w l y s o y o u w i l l u n d e r s t a n d.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by jbooma

i vote republican 75% of the time but i still agree with democratic views


I have yet to see significant evidence of this.