Kerry supporters should brace themselves.

[Kilmer17]

Sometime in the next 24 hours, details (meaning actual documents) will be released showing that Kerry received a DIShonorable discharge from the Navy.

Included in part of this "Oct suprise" will be a new Swift Boat ad with never aired portions of an interview Kerry did with Brokaw where he tells Brokaw that "My full records have not, and will not be released".

Dont know if it will swing a voter, but it will certainly dominate the news cycles up til Tuesday.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This is the October Surprise?

[big z]

interesting....i'll keep my eyes and ears open....


should swing some vets.

[Johnny Punani2]

These records should have been released earlier. It's the same thing that quack Dem did with Bush's DWI records the day before the election.

[Kilmer17]

Oh dear G)D MAN!!!!

Please change your sig.

It gives me the creeps.

[Johnny Punani2]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Oh dear G)D MAN!!!!

Please change your sig.

It gives me the creeps.

:evil: :evil: :evil:

nice

[DCBnG21]

You're kidding, right? If this is true, it's going to set off a crazy political newsstorm.....

[troyster]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Oh dear G)D MAN!!!!

Please change your sig.

It gives me the creeps.

I HATE clowns. They're the worst. If anyone ever wanted to give me a heart attack, all they'd have to do is dress in a clown suit and wake me up while wearing it, or jump out from behind a doorway.

\sorry for being off topic...

[Cskin]

Kilmer... where are you hearing this?

[Kilmer17]

It's hot and heavy in the blogosphere, so I called a friend of mine in the FLA GOP.

Here's one of the admitted right wing sites running it.
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-buzzcut.php?range=10%2F24%2F2004+-+10%2F30%2F2004

This Bin Laden tape may push it back.

[codeorama]

I feel dirty having clicked on that link...

[Predicto]

If I'm reading that article right, it appears that if he got a dishonorable discharge, it would be solely because the Navy was pissed that he protested the war after he came home. The fact that he did that is something everyone already knows in nauseating detail.

Or did I miss something?

[Cskin]

Ouch... this may hurt. Because Kerry will have to answer as to why he's refused to sign the form and release the documents while claiming in public... and on his website.. that he has done so. Planting the seed of reasonable doubt on undecideds as to what he's hiding.

Geez.. I hate politics... the sleeziest scum of the earth play in that pen. :doh:

[Kilmer17]

Im talking specifically about how it will play.

He was still active duty when he came back, so his actions were dishonarable (even if you think they were the right thing to do) in the Navy's eyes.

The bigger part is that he admits to Brokaw that his records havent been released, when he's made the claim that they have.

Like the Bin Laden tape, I dont know if this sways a sole. But it certainly will dominate the cycle.

[Chopper Dave]

I just want to shine a bi-partisan perspective on this whole thing: WHO CARES?

Seriously, if he wasn't honorably discharged because they were pissed he protested, or even if Bush had problems with his Nat'l Guard duty, for that matter, how does this affect which will be a better president?

Edit: And I know it sheds light on credibility, but still, neither of their military records should take any kind of precedent over whether or not you agree with their policies and opinions.

[pr11fan]

Originally posted by Chopper Dave
I just want to shine a bi-partisan perspective on this whole thing: WHO CARES?

Seriously, if he wasn't honorably discharged because they were pissed he protested, or even if Bush had problems with his Nat'l Guard duty, for that matter, how does this affect which will be a better president?

Neither affects it, but some people will probably change their minds considering how much Kerry has pimped his Vietnam service in this campaign. Same way dems were counting on the same happening with Bush and the Nat'l Guard before it blew up in their face.

[Kilmer17]

Youre arguing about the way things SHOULD work. You need to think about this within the parameters of how things DO work.

[Gichin13]

That would be classic Karl Rove.

And likely have as much substance as the nasty campaigning against Ann Richards, the claims that McCain was a traitor and would crack (and had a black love child), and other Rove specials. Damn that guy is nasty.

[Hooper]

Yawn. Even if it's true and you think Kerry is just horrible, the Bin Laden tape will dominate the news for the next couple days.

[Predicto]

Originally posted by Gichin13
That would be classic Karl Rove.

And likely have as much substance as the nasty campaigning against Ann Richards, the claims that McCain was a traitor and would crack (and had a black love child), and other Rove specials. Damn that guy is nasty.

Rove is the best there ever was at what he does.

[Hooper]

Until he gets someone elected to two terms not one, let's hold off on calling Rove the best ever.

[jbooma]

This is huge if true, the fact he keep saying he was honorable and now this, ouch.

Why are they waiting, this should be news now.

[Chopper Dave]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Youre arguing about the way things SHOULD work. You need to think about this within the parameters of how things DO work.

Oh, I know. Keep in mind, I'm 17. I'm not quite cynical enough to realize that I can't change a damn thing ;).

[Kilmer17]

Timing is everything.

If they release it now, it will get buried under the Bin Laden tape.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Hooper
Until he gets someone elected to two terms not one, let's hold off on calling Rove the best ever.

Bush got re-elected in Texas

[ntotoro]

Originally posted by Chopper Dave


Oh, I know. Keep in mind, I'm 17. I'm not quite cynical enough to realize that I can't change a damn thing ;).

Give it a couple years... ;)

[SEF]

More swiftboat liars BS.

But, I'll be sure to brace myself. :rolleyes:

[DarkLadyRaven]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Timing is everything.

If they release it now, it will get buried under the Bin Laden tape.

Bin Laden tapes seem like a dime a dozen,

the Kerry Documents would be news if it was legit BUT seeing how its not- makes me think they are not.

Hell what do I know my Absentee ballot was in weeks ago.

[gstahl]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Im talking specifically about how it will play.

He was still active duty when he came back, so his actions were dishonarable (even if you think they were the right thing to do) in the Navy's eyes.

The bigger part is that he admits to Brokaw that his records havent been released, when he's made the claim that they have.

Like the Bin Laden tape, I dont know if this sways a sole. But it certainly will dominate the cycle.

I have no idea about Kerry, but what you say here is incorrect and it just does not work that way. The Navy does not just say your actions are such and such thus you get a dishonorable discharge. It is a huge deal and usual results from a trial. So folks know where I am coming from, I was a legal officer in the Navy for a number of years.

Dishonorable discharge is a punitive discharge and thus has to be handed down from a judicial proceeding. There are discharges which are administrative in nature and can be given out rather than Honorable.

BTW, almost all job applications ask if you have been convicted of a felony or been dishonorably discharged from the military (which absolutely does not mean "Is you discharge anything but honorable?"). I find it far fetched that this kind of thing would not be public knowledge, heck it would be stupid for his previous opponents not to use it.

[Joe Sick]

Originally posted by gstahl
Dishonorable discharge is a punitive discharge and thus has to be handed down from a judicial proceeding. There are discharges which are administrative in nature and can be given out rather than Honorable.

BTW, almost all job applications ask if you have been convicted of a felony or been dishonorably discharged from the military (which absolutely does not mean "Is you discharge anything but honorable?"). I find it far fetched that this kind of thing would not be public knowledge, heck it would be stupid for his previous opponents not to use it.

Wouldn't such a judicial proceeding be public knowledge?

This sounds like a bunch of BS, but the Bushies have to do something to regain the headlines.

This will get released on Monday morning, so that there is barely enough time to debunk it.

Where are all the conservatives that were crying foul when ABC was going to release the video on election eve? Hypocritical much?

Rove is a dirty ba$tard and learned it all from Lee Atwater. Maybe he will have a similar deathbed conversion from his evil ways.

[aREDSKIN]

Originally posted by LC80
More swiftboat liars BS.

But, I'll be sure to brace myself. :rolleyes:


Umm why has'nt Kerry release all of his military records via the DOD form 180??
Perhaps this is why!!

[gstahl]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
It's hot and heavy in the blogosphere, so I called a friend of mine in the FLA GOP.

Here's one of the admitted right wing sites running it.
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-buzzcut.php?range=10%2F24%2F2004+-+10%2F30%2F2004

This Bin Laden tape may push it back.

You know that this article specifically says you are completely incorrect. It in fact says.... "My suspicion along with a growing number of military personnel is that Kerry received an "other than honorable" discharge"

Even if this is true, it is way way different than a dishonorable discharge. Also this story was aired...

Oct 13th: NY Sun
Oct 23rd: Mark Alexander (very right wing opinion piece)
(this seems to be the source for almost ALL the links I can find to this issue on Goggle (including Rush), if this is the only source, all I can say is... you have got to be kidding me, this is weak and desperate)

BTW, this opinion piece is then used by Vets4Bush.com on the 24th and they recommended...

"Print multiple copies out and put it in Trick or Treet bags Sunday night when the kids come calling.
Print multiple copies out and hand them out at the local mall.
Print multiple copies out and hand them out at church.
Print multible copies out and put them in your neighbors mail box/newspaper box."

Nice, let's use kids Halloween trick or treat to regurgitate someone's right wing opinion piece (go read the original, it is a lot of supposition and guessing with few hard facts), I would be pissed if someone put political advertisements in kids bags.

Analyzing the opinion presented here....

The facts seem to be that some folks THINK that Kerry may have received an OTH (other than honorable discharge), but offer no proof (just conjecture). Second, this seems to be technically no matter due to an amnesty executive order sign by Jimmy Carter in 1977 which covers other than honorable discharges during the Vietnam period (which very well could have been given out as punishment for people who spoke out (guessing here), which is actually improper use of this type of discharge (not guessing about that)). In any case the OTH really is an administrative discharge that is NOT punitive. The dishonorable discharge could be consider a felony for all intents and purposes and strips all benefits, medals, etc. They are very VERY different beasts and should never ever be confused.

So bottom line.... Kerry getting an OTH seems to be conjecture by some right wing groups. They seem to use dishonorable interchangeably where they are not interchangeable, but in the end do not seem to be saying he was dishonorably discharged but could have been given an OTH (but are not sure). Finally the executive order seems to grant amnesty on this issue in any case thus even if one found Kerry to have been given an OTH upon leaving the Navy in the early 70's the order changed that to a standard honorable discharge in 77.

This is information from a bunch of different places (mostly right wing sites), but I think I have gotten most of it.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Kerry hasen't released his record's, obviously there's something there that will make him look bad, I can't see this guy concealing his heroic's for modesty purposes.

[aREDSKIN]

The Buzz Cut


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Tuesday, October 26, 2004
October Surprise? The Truth Behind Kerry's Military Discharge. What's Kerry Hiding?:


"I have nothing to hide. I want you to ask me questions."
--John Kerry, Reuters, August 3, 2004

The only 180 John Kerry hasn't accomplished in his litany of flip-flops throughout his campaign is Standard Form 180, the paperwork necessary for the complete release of his military records from the Department of Defense repository.

The Kerry campaign and website continue to claim he has released all military records. In fact, they've released the few documents painting the senator in a favorable light. There are at least 100 pages, promising to be much more revealing, still unseen. Kerry controls their release. All he has to do is sign the Form 180. To date, he has refused.

It goes without saying the main stream media isn't clamoring for him to comply although they hounded President George Bush relentlessly to release his Air National Guard records. Bush, by the way, did the right thing--he signed his Form 180. Kerry has made his naval service the focal point for his election. Shouldn't we expect the war hero to open his military service to America? Where is the outrage (I ask tongue-in-cheek)? Where is the objective journalism? More realistically, what is Kerry hiding?

Thomas Lipscomb writing for the New York Sun and Geoff Metcalf of NewsMax.com have been pursuing Kerry's military record irregularities and his refusal to authorize their release tirelessly. Without Kerry's assistance, however, it will take a critical and very timely leak or we will never know the truth behind Kerry's military service in time for it to make the difference.

With true patriotism and integrity, John O'Neill and the Swifties have proven beyond any doubt that Kerry lacks the character and moral fiber to be the leader of our men and women in uniform. (As an aside, I've been touring the country with John O'Neill over the last several weeks, and I've never met a finer human being.)

The final element in Kerry's absolute failure to meet the standards our military deserves in a commander-in-chief, in this retired officer's opinion, is in the factual nature of Kerry's discharge (although I would love for some resourceful citizen find a way to republish and distribute Kerry's radical, anti-American tome The New Soldier -- which my publisher Regnery Publishing has offered to do for free -- and hand it out at the polls on November 2).

As for every veteran, the truth will be found the form DD214, the official Department of Defense document of release from military obligation given to Kerry when he exited military service on July 1, 1972. It is conspicuously absent from the documents released so far. Everyone serving in the military receives a DD214 the day they separate or retire from service. My suspicion along with a growing number of military personnel is that Kerry received an "other than honorable" discharge in the early 1970s as a consequence of his vehement anti-US, anti-military activities with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and his potentially treasonous tête-à-têtes with North Vietnamese Communist officials in Paris. If not, let him release his records. If so, America should demand the release.

Kerry's activities during his post-war political resume building efforts are expressly prohibited by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 104, Part 904; the United States Code Title 18, Section 953 (18 USC Sec. 953); and, arguably, the Constitution, Article 3, Section 3. In fact, the Constitution's 14th Amendment, Section 3 declares, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President . . . (who has) engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." In another time and another place, at a minimum, Kerry would have faced courts martial. In another time and another place, Kerry would be breaking big rocks into little rocks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the military penitentiary. Today, he stands on the brink of election as the leader of the free world.

Kerry has built an entire career based solely on four months in Vietnam and two years of post-war protesting. For a politician to have built so much on, and been so successful with, a foundation consisting largely of self-promotion, lies, and unpatriotic (some say treasonous) endeavors is utterly fantastic and extremely tenuous. And the Dems know it--ergo, the refusal on the part of the Kerry campaign to release the entirety of his military service records.

With what we do know, Kerry's paperwork doesn't pass the smell test. The few records so far released by his campaign identify FOUR "honorable" discharge dates (every other military member I know, myself included, received one). Kerry's released documentation notes discharges of January 3, 1970, February 16, 1978, July 13, 1978, and, most peculiarly, March 12, 2001. He has as many discharge dates as months he spent in Vietnam. In my twenty years in the Air Force and through the thousands of people I came to know and serve with, I have never heard of anyone in the military having more than one DD 214 with one discharge date. Kerry, according to his own campaign, has at least four.

There are five potential classes of discharge: Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct, and Dishonorable. Why does it matter? It's the sum total of one's military service boiled down in a phrase. Most employers require former military members to attach their DD214 to their employment application. Anything other than "Honorable" is seen as a character flaw. Bad Conduct and Dishonorable obviously are causes for additional concern.

Because Kerry is submitting his employment application to the American people and might become our military's next commander in chief, we may be asking our troops to support a man who held himself to lower standards than he would demand from our 2.3 million in uniform. (This is precisely what happened under Bill Clinton's stewardship when the military prosecuted servicemen for sexual infidelity and harassment while the commander-in-chief was committing similar crimes in the Oval Office). In fact, if a former military member applies for employment with defense related industry, he is required to sign and submit Form 180. Kerry, seeking to be CEO for our nation's defense, has refused.

Here's the crux of the confusion. On February 18, 1966, Kerry obligated himself to a six-year commitment to the Navy, and to the tenets of the military judicial system, with an expiration date of July 1, 1972. On January 3, 1970, Kerry asked for, and was granted, an early transfer from his active duty service to the Naval Reserve. As a reservist, he was still under oath as a commissioned officer and subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He still carried a military ID card and was still a member of the U.S. armed forces. Kerry's service commitment came to an end, as scheduled, in July, 1972. As such, a DD Form 214 with a discharge status was due.

Kerry's "honorable" discharge, though, doesn't come until February 16, 1978. Why? Possibly because President Jimmy Carter, through Proclamation 4483, granted a full and complete pardon to all military personnel who committed offenses and violations of the Military Selective Service Act during the Vietnam War. He pardoned deserters, draft dodgers and those who went absent without leave (AWOL).

Interestingly, Kerry's honorable discharge letter from the Department of the Navy, dated February 16, 1978, notes that Kerry's discharge was taken "by direction of the President" and "with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened under the authority of reference [10 USC Sec. 1163] to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve.." This is extremely unusual. Review boards are not convened for discharges and certainly not "by direction of the President." The "authority of reference," 10 USC Sec. 1163, refers to "the grounds for involuntary separation from the service." What was being reviewed, then, was Kerry's involuntary separation from the service or, more likely, the disposition of his service. This simply would not have occurred if Kerry's discharge in 1972 had been "honorable." Why did Kerry's discharge meet a board? In all likelihood, he sought relief to improve his status of discharge from "dishonorable" or "less than honorable" to "honorable." If he signed his Form 180, we'd know. If he'd release his DD214 from 1972, we'd know.

Finally, and most bizarre of all of Kerry's military records so far released is a DD 215, "Correction to DD Form 214," initiated for John Forbes Kerry on March 12, 2001. Among other things, the new form changes Kerry's official US Navy separation date to March 1, 1970! As noted earlier, he wasn't eligible for discharge until July, 1972, and was so. Why, then, the new document in 2001? Why, 29 years later, is there the need to correct or change the record?

Here's why. By moving Kerry's discharge date to early in 1970, all of Kerry's post-Vietnam activities would be theoretically exempt from military justice. By moving his discharge date to March of 1970, Kerry's meeting with the enemy, North Vietnamese Communists in Paris in May of 1970, would be exempt. His joining the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in June of 1970 and his radical, anti-war anti-government activities that followed would be exempt. The Winter Soldier Investigation in January, 1971, and Kerry's infamous testimony to Congress in April, 1971 would be exempt. His arrest for his protest activities in May, 1971, would be exempt. His attendance at a VVAW meeting in Kansas City where the assassination of several prominent and hawkish U.S. senators was discussed and voted on would be exempt.

Democratic presidential candidate Kerry has spent 35 years building a political career on four months in Vietnam. Apparently, he has spent 35 years covering up his post-war activities while still a member of the U.S. Navy many of which seem to be clear violations of the Constitution, US Codes, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Now, he stands on the verge of becoming our commander-in-chief, responsible for the stewardship of 2.3 million men and women in uniform. A former serviceman who won't come clean on his own record intends to command our forces and enforce the standards of military justice. We've been down this path before. America deserves to know. Our troops certainly deserve to know.

All it would take is for him to sign the Form 180.

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-buzzcut.php?range=10%2F24%2F2004+-+10%2F30%2F2004

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Kerry's meeting with the enemy, North Vietnamese Communists in Paris in May of 1970, would be exempt. His joining the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in June of 1970 and his radical, anti-war anti-government activities that followed would be exempt. The Winter Soldier Investigation in January, 1971, and Kerry's infamous testimony to Congress in April, 1971 would be exempt. His arrest for his protest activities in May, 1971, would be exempt. His attendance at a VVAW meeting in Kansas City where the assassination of several prominent and hawkish U.S. senators was discussed and voted on would be exempt.

Someone PLEASE debunk that meeting with the NVComs in Paris. PLEASE. If you can, then I will amend my views on this SLIGHTLY. If not, well...

Fact is, dishonorable discharge or not, Kerry did not merely "speak out" against the war when he came back. I wouldn't hold that against him, it's the manner in which he chose to protest the war and honestly, I think he really just parlayed all of this into a political career. I don't know HOW heartfelt his speeches in 71 were, as his 4 months is in question as well.

But whatever the case may be with things that are difficult to determine, like motivation, the fact is he met with the enemy in the city where the negotiations were being held(was he reporting? Was he giving them information about the US demands? What?) That he joined VVAW and testified at the farcical Winter Soldier 'hearings" should give ANYONE who is not an outright far-leftist pause.

Yeah, Yeah, I know, it doesn't matter. And his 4 months trumps anything he does when he gets back home. So if someone gets home during the middle of WW II they get to start working agitprop for the Japanese or the Germans and we just praise them for their service, right?

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin


Someone PLEASE debunk that meeting with the NVComs in Paris. PLEASE. If you can, then I will amend my views on this SLIGHTLY. If not, well...

Fact is, dishonorable discharge or not, Kerry did not merely "speak out" against the war when he came back. I wouldn't hold that against him, it's the manner in which he chose to protest the war and honestly, I think he really just parlayed all of this into a political career. I don't know HOW heartfelt his speeches in 71 were, as his 4 months is in question as well.

But whatever the case may be with things that are difficult to determine, like motivation, the fact is he met with the enemy in the city where the negotiations were being held(was he reporting? Was he giving them information about the US demands? What?) That he joined VVAW and testified at the farcical Winter Soldier 'hearings" should give ANYONE who is not an outright far-leftist pause.

Yeah, Yeah, I know, it doesn't matter. And his 4 months trumps anything he does when he gets back home. So if someone gets home during the middle of WW II they get to start working agitprop for the Japanese or the Germans and we just praise them for their service, right?

This was put out earlier... It was even the speculation in the first place that probably fueled the look into why Kerry lied about having all of his records out there for people to see.

He's a traitor, but he's a traitor from waaaay back... Only the vets seem to care.. the rest let it go ...

I think this matter less than his Sentorial record but to each their own...

[atloldskin]

That would be interesting. Personally, I like the "Osama will show up captured" rumor better. That would seal the election!

[Duckus]

Still waiting for this huge new story.........

[JimboDaMan]

Boy, its awful nitwit out tonight, isn't it?

aREDSKIN, John O'Neill is a proven liar. The statement that the author has never met a finer human being is quite probably true, but it doesn't say much for either of them.

[Cskin]

And John Kerry has three purple hearts for "injuries" that needed no medical attention nor forced him to spend even one night in a hospital. In essence, injuries with no blood or bandages. Nice!!!

[Stu]

This one seems odd to me. Officers do not receive discharge papers per se (i.e, honorable discharge certificate and such). You get a DD214 and that is it at least for a regular commission since once commissioned you are technically on the books for service until the day you die. Perhaps it is different for a reserve commission but I don't think so.

Now there could still be some shady circumstances related to his departure from the Navy but the story as presented has some challenges.

[Matt Kyriacou]

Anything that saves us from living under a Herman Munster Presidency is welcome news to me.

[DarkLadyRaven]

Were still bracing here !- or are they just trying to wait till the very last second

[Kilmer17]

I wouldnt expect it now. The Bin Laden tape did essentially the same thing this Swifty charge would have done.

It's dominating the newscycles and placing the final emphasis on the broad war on terror and which candidate will protect us the best.

[gstahl]

Originally posted by Stu
This one seems odd to me. Officers do not receive discharge papers per se (i.e, honorable discharge certificate and such). You get a DD214 and that is it at least for a regular commission since once commissioned you are technically on the books for service until the day you die. Perhaps it is different for a reserve commission but I don't think so.

Now there could still be some shady circumstances related to his departure from the Navy but the story as presented has some challenges.

Heck, I did not think of that. I do not have a DD214. I am still technically an inactive reserve officer, 9 years after I resigned my commission. I believe I can request to be release, but I do not know what papers I would receive, but it bet it would turn out to be reviewed by a board, 9 years after I got "out".

[gstahl]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
I wouldnt expect it now. The Bin Laden tape did essentially the same thing this Swifty charge would have done.

It's dominating the newscycles and placing the final emphasis on the broad war on terror and which candidate will protect us the best.

You are absolutely right and it is doing what it was designed to do. Across the board I see the basic analysis as this is a bump for Bush and was designed by bin laden to be a bump for Bush (we can all conjuncture why, but at face value most analyst that I have seen are calling it that way).

[Kilmer17]

Sure, if for no other reason that it will be the main media story for the next day and a half.

I disagree that it was designed as a bump for Bush by Bin Laden. I dont think any of us can understand the mindset of guys like him. His belief system may dictate that this tape was a shaming of Bush and would affect him negatively. I dont know either way what the intent was. I can say though that it will help Bush.

[gstahl]

I do not understand something though...

You know I do not agree with the assertions in this opinion piece, but...

Let's assume they are true, why wouldn't the Bush campaign bring these out? If they have facts backing this opinion it would seem to be (as you first mentioned) a killer last minute attack that could sure sway some undecided, especially ones that were not getting the terror and safety under this administration issue.

hmmm....

Maybe because they are not at all true. Maybe they are just the opinion of one very partisan man with an axe to grind and have no truth (other than the truth associated with floating around the internet and being quoted and linked over and over again). Maybe they should just be ignored as political drivel and we should all move on?

I guess we will never know.

[Kilmer17]

I wouldnt have expected Bush to come close to this story. Much like I wasnt suprised when Kerry stayed out of the Dan Rather hitpiece.

No need to inject himself into it.

[Cskin]

Bush can't bring up the question of Kerry's war record because they know Kerry will scream foul and the Dem pundits will spin it ... "how dare they attack his military record.... look at the desperation..... a new low of politics".

Regardless of the specifics of the story... the mere fact that 250 swift boat vets will not support him is an indication that his war record was less than distinguished.

[Stu]

Originally posted by gstahl


Heck, I did not think of that. I do not have a DD214. I am still technically an inactive reserve officer, 9 years after I resigned my commission. I believe I can request to be release, but I do not know what papers I would receive, but it bet it would turn out to be reviewed by a board, 9 years after I got "out".

Ahhh...but shipmate you are never really "out" no matter what the papers say. Once an officer, always an officer. They can call you back at the pleasure of the President anytime, anywhere, anyhow. Doesn't bother me one bit, but I always like to point it out to fellow officers. There were some F-8 pilots in Vietnam that got the call out of the blue who were no longer "reservists".

[Skinsfan1966]

Originally posted by Predicto
If I'm reading that article right, it appears that if he got a dishonorable discharge, it would be solely because the Navy was pissed that he protested the war after he came home. The fact that he did that is something everyone already knows in nauseating detail.

Or did I miss something?

No, what he did was go and meet with vietnamese negotiators in paris while still in the military (albeit in the reserves) That is clearly giving aid and comfort to the enemy

[Leonard Washington]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
Sometime in the next 24 hours, details (meaning actual documents) will be released showing that Kerry received a DIShonorable discharge from the Navy.

Included in part of this "Oct suprise" will be a new Swift Boat ad with never aired portions of an interview Kerry did with Brokaw where he tells Brokaw that "My full records have not, and will not be released".

Dont know if it will swing a voter, but it will certainly dominate the news cycles up til Tuesday.

how is this important?

this is similar to bush's DUI...it has no relevance to me.

[Kilmer17]

The issue was not it's importance. But rather how it would have dominated the weekend.

Instead, the Bush team got a gift from Osama.

Neither were going to sway a voter, but the Osama tape (as this Swift boat attack would have done) dominated the cycles over the weekend and left the final thought of the election on an issue that favors Bush.

It helps Bush because nothing was able to come out that would have helped Kerry.

[OURYEAR#56]

Osama helped me see Bush was wrong over the last four years. His whole presidency has been an excersise in futility. We can't catch a 6'4 arab with an entourage. Maybe Bush should suit up and head out to Afghanistan and fight. Then he could really crtize Kerry duty in Vietnam. I'm still pissed that they would ever question Kerry military history. I only got shot at one time, and that's enough for me. Anybody that fights in any war should be considered a hero, because we stay at home an point fingers.

[Kilmer17]

OY, your vote was never in question. Therefor a picture of Kerry performing a satanic ritual wouldnt have changed your mind.

Follow along with the intent of the thread to see what we are discussing.

[codeorama]

Kerry performing a Satanic ritual might win my vote....:D

Do what thou wilt, that is the whole of the law...:laugh:

[Kilmer17]

Originally posted by codeorama
Kerry performing a Satanic ritual might win my vote....:D

Do what thou wilt, that is the whole of the law...:laugh:

Careful, for you may reveal too much.

Remlik.

[joe]

If this were not so sad, it would be hysterical. What's next, doctored photos of Kerry with Jane Fonda?

Oh wait! we already had those.

[WM_Marylander]

The irony of it all is that a guy who actually went to Vietnam is getting more flack about his military service than a guy who had daddy make sure he didn't have to go.

That is the irony and the hypocricy of it all.

The guy went. When he got back, he didn't agree with it, and I'm not sure I could blame him for that, having watched films and documentaries and read some pretty powerful stories...

I just think some of this campaign garbage is downright sickening and I can't wait till it's over.