The real MJ deserves all our thanks and respect

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83


Media attention as in who? I see a Kornheiser and Wilbon column in the post on them every week. I heard Wilbon on a national sports radio show being interviewed about them. I am steady hearing something about their "Three-Headed Scoring Monster" everywhere and we got our first nationally televised game since Jordan retired, which we won. I think the media has been giving the Wizards respect to tell you the truth.


A side note on Jordan. Think about if Jordan hadn't came back for no reason and inflated the value of the team. We would have gotten pretty decent draft picks instead of Jared Jeffries and Juan Dixon.

Hands11

Maybe, but I think Jordan coming here played a very very important role. Lets not forget who the Wiz were before he came here. We were the total joke of the league because of our front office.

Abe was a total looser and La Suz and Wes where leading us no where. Since Jordan came here, we were put back on the map. He may have messd Kwame's head up, but part of that is on Kwame. A stronger minded person like a Labron would have eaten up with Jordan was feeding.

Jordan changed the whole tone here. He commanded respect. He set a new standard. He brought us attention. He got rid of some dead weight contracts. We were in an addictive cycle of over paying anyone who showed a little promise, because we couldn't afford to loose them. He played for almost nothing for us. He got shafted by Abe. Jordan turned us around then Abe dumped him. It should have been handled better. That being said, it was smart of Abe to get a proven GM to lead us once we were turned around. But that never would have happen before Jordan got here.

Since he came here, everything changed. Yeah, we paid something for the turn around. Nothing is all good. You don't get something for nothing. We lost Rip, Kwame had a tough time, but the net gain was well worth it.

Jordan has been bashed so much, but if you really look closely to what happen, you can make a very valid agruement that, had he not come here, we would be the same old Wiz we had been with no hope in sit.

Jordan has my respect for all he did. He deserves more credit and less bashing. Come on man, MJ played for the WIZ. He is arguably the best player ever. We should be so lucky. I couldnt believe it when I heard it.

It was the first time in a long time I was really excited about the Wiz and felt hope. Since he game here, this organization has turned around.

THATS A FACT.

I just wish he know how much some of us WIZ fans really apprehiate what he did for us.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

I think MJ was the key to teh Wiz' turnaround, no doubt.

That people blame him, when it seems pretty clear that the team was growing and was on the cusp, even if he DID need to go is interesting to me.

Sometimes a franchise needs something more than just pure talent and the CLips are proof that high picks mean squat. You can foul those up just as well.

He brought that magic touch. At least the Wiz were fighting for the playoffs, though falling short. That turned the team around.

People need to stop the hate. I kind of wish, though, that he went to play with San An or another contender and won more titles.

[Bugs']

I can't agree with you guys about Jordan...the best player of all time? I think so....but as far as running an organization and motivating players? Terrible. He didn't turn anything around, and I give Abe credit for firing Jordan because he had a terrible work ethic and was not producing off the court. We stunk when Jordan was here and we stunk when he left....we only got good through Eddie Jordan and mainly Ernie Grumfeld's moves....He was a cancer to this organization and we are better off without him.

[afparent]

Sorry, I see it a different way. Yes, MJ put money in Abe Pollin's pocket, but I don't see any connection to him and today's successful Wizards.

[LA56Dawg]

i agree w/ the above ^ -- can't connect MJ w/ the Wiz of today

[Gamebreaker]

MJ needed to go, he sucked at running the team not because he isn't a smart man but because he never put any effort into it.

The only reasons I ever see about why MJ was good for this team have nothing to do with running it. He raised attendance, the record got better....SO WHAT, HE WAS PLAYING!! He wasn't brought here to play, although that was unexpected bonus. And even playing turned out to be the worst scenario, since all he did was bring in old, worn down free agents who weren't going to be here past 2 years and sat all the young, developing players on the bench. Making the "team" better turned into MJ getting his last shot in the playoffs, and his skills had severly diminished and we all remember how that story went.

The whole locker room UNANIMOUSLY wanted him gone. Pollin went to them and asked what they felt about him and it wasn't just Kwame's opinion, it was the whole damn team. In one summer, he would probably spend a week in the office. By that, I'm simply adding up the days.

[fixer26er]

I wouldn't credit MJ with the turnaround of this team. He did some good things like dumping Juwan Howards contract, but then he turned around and signed Laettner to like a 4 year 24 million contract extension and traded Rip for Stack. It's like as a GM he'd take one step forward and two steps back.

[Diablo23]

Originally posted by hands11
Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83


Media attention as in who? I see a Kornheiser and Wilbon column in the post on them every week. I heard Wilbon on a national sports radio show being interviewed about them. I am steady hearing something about their "Three-Headed Scoring Monster" everywhere and we got our first nationally televised game since Jordan retired, which we won. I think the media has been giving the Wizards respect to tell you the truth.


A side note on Jordan. Think about if Jordan hadn't came back for no reason and inflated the value of the team. We would have gotten pretty decent draft picks instead of Jared Jeffries and Juan Dixon.

Hands11

Maybe, but I think Jordan coming here played a very very important role. Lets not forget who the Wiz were before he came here. We were the total joke of the league because of our front office.

Abe was a total looser and La Suz and Wes where leading us no where. Since Jordan came here, we were put back on the map. He may have messd Kwame's head up, but part of that is on Kwame. A stronger minded person like a Labron would have eaten up with Jordan was feeding.

Jordan changed the whole tone here. He commanded respect. He set a new standard. He brought us attention. He got rid of some dead weight contracts. We were in an addictive cycle of over paying anyone who showed a little promise, because we couldn't afford to loose them. He played for almost nothing for us. He got shafted by Abe. Jordan turned us around then Abe dumped him. It should have been handled better. That being said, it was smart of Abe to get a proven GM to lead us once we were turned around. But that never would have happen before Jordan got here.

Since he came here, everything changed. Yeah, we paid something for the turn around. Nothing is all good. You don't get something for nothing. We lost Rip, Kwame had a tough time, but the net gain was well worth it.

Jordan has been bashed so much, but if you really look closely to what happen, you can make a very valid agruement that, had he not come here, we would be the same old Wiz we had been with no hope in sit.

Jordan has my respect for all he did. He deserves more credit and less bashing. Come on man, MJ played for the WIZ. He is arguably the best player ever. We should be so lucky. I couldnt believe it when I heard it.

It was the first time in a long time I was really excited about the Wiz and felt hope. Since he game here, this organization has turned around.

THATS A FACT.

I just wish he know how much some of us WIZ fans really apprehiate what he did for us.


:notworthy

I agree :D

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Originally posted by fixer26er
I wouldn't credit MJ with the turnaround of this team. He did some good things like dumping Juwan Howards contract, but then he turned around and signed Laettner to like a 4 year 24 million contract extension and traded Rip for Stack. It's like as a GM he'd take one step forward and two steps back.

Exactly...

[Mooney]

The best result from the Jordan Era in DC is that he broke the stranglehold that Wes Unseld had on personnel decisions.

Just wish he would have fired Sue O'Malley, if he ever had the chance.

[hands11]

Originally posted by Bugs'
I can't agree with you guys about Jordan...the best player of all time? I think so....but as far as running an organization and motivating players? Terrible. He didn't turn anything around, and I give Abe credit for firing Jordan because he had a terrible work ethic and was not producing off the court. We stunk when Jordan was here and we stunk when he left....we only got good through Eddie Jordan and mainly Ernie Grumfeld's moves....He was a cancer to this organization and we are better off without him.

Your missing what I wrote. He was a spark. Maybe he didnt have the best work ethic. I guess. I dont know. I wasnt there. But, he came here. For 1 mil a year. Jordan. At Washington. For 1 Mil a year. Come on. He got the focus on this team. He started the heart of this team and this town. He set the standard on the court. He got ride of the dead wood contracts. If it wasnt for him. Gil probably wouldnt have even know the Wiz existed. EG would never have come here. We couldnt get a real GM to come her because of Abe's history. They all know our front office was a joke.

Facts are facts. We sucked for 20 years. Jordan showed up, and we started this whole turning the corner process.

[gbear]

started turning the corner? We didn't do that until Grunfield and Jordan II.

We were terrible under MJ. You might look and say the record was better because MJ played which he didn't have to do. However, saying that ignores that the team was forced to play slow plodding basketball because his legs couldn't do the up and down the court for an entire game any more. Heck, it's why he signed guys like Laetner for a large contract. He got players that moved like stones. Unfortunately, I don't think that style wins in todays NBA. In effect, he took the team down a path without a winning gameplan. However, I do have to admit the Pistons won with this game plan last year. The irony there is that they did it with ex-wizards.

HE set us back with his playing and getting players that could slow a game down to his speed. It wasn't till he left that we were able to start getting guys who can run the floor. And the running and gunning is where our wins are now.

[aejm1400]

The only thing MJ did was put money in the Wizards pocket. Ernie has made the right moves and Eddie has a team that's used to losing playing like they can win every one. I still don't know what MJ was thinking getting Stack for Rip. MJ knew he'd want to be the man in the 2nd year and Rip would have been a better fit for him to play with. Plus, I have heard of zero issue involving the players the eddie hasn't addressed. Collins would just complain to the media at the end of the year that he couldn't control the team. Well, when your not the "real" coach, why would he expect any player to listen to him.

And it was great to see a national game out here in Nebraska. With the way they are playing I just might have to catch a game in April when I'm out that way.

[hands11]

Originally posted by gbear
started turning the corner? We didn't do that until Grunfield and Jordan II.

We were terrible under MJ. You might look and say the record was better because MJ played which he didn't have to do. However, saying that ignores that the team was forced to play slow plodding basketball because his legs couldn't do the up and down the court for an entire game any more. Heck, it's why he signed guys like Laetner for a large contract. He got players that moved like stones. Unfortunately, I don't think that style wins in todays NBA. In effect, he took the team down a path without a winning gameplan. However, I do have to admit the Pistons won with this game plan last year. The irony there is that they did it with ex-wizards.

HE set us back with his playing and getting players that could slow a game down to his speed. It wasn't till he left that we were able to start getting guys who can run the floor. And the running and gunning is where our wins are now.


Im sorry, but I just cant take you guys making stuff up. We had already started to transition before Ernie. Ernie has everything to do with use being where we are now. I love our GM. Getting ride of Stack and getting Jams. He is Hodeni. I was stoked when I heard we finally got him. But just like roaches, when we see one, they have been breading for years. When a chick leaves a dude, she has been thinking about it for a while. Ernie may have had a tone to do with us being this good, but you cant make an objective arguement against the facts.

We were so far in the hole, off the map, a joke of an organization, no GM wanted to come here and if they did, they would want to run it all. Wes was inbeeded like a tick. We had fat contracts and a crappy team. The heart beat of this town started ticking again when you learned Jordan was coming here. People started talking about how the Bullets curse had finally be raised. Jordan has the clout to stand up to Wes and Abe. Jordan is no Ernie, but he broke the ice, mixed things up, brought us some respect and attention. That's when it all started.

As I said, nothing is all good, but Jordan got this this started, Ernie put it on the raise track, and Abe had the balls to switch horses at the right time.

[Gamebreaker]

What stuff are people making up? I haven't seen anything false yet.

[Diablo23]

Hey who brought Larry here :D

[hands11]

Originally posted by SmashMouth
The best result from the Jordan Era in DC is that he broke the stranglehold that Wes Unseld had on personnel decisions.

Just wish he would have fired Sue O'Malley, if he ever had the chance.

This is one of the things he did.

[Skins11]

Originally posted by hands11



Im sorry, but I just cant take you guys making stuff up. We had already started to transition before Ernie. Ernie has everything to do with use being where we are now. I love our GM. Getting ride of Stack and getting Jams. He is Hodeni. I was stoked when I heard we finally got him. But just like roaches, when we see one, they have been breading for years. When a chick leaves a dude, she has been thinking about it for a while. Ernie may have had a tone to do with us being this good, but you cant make an objective arguement against the facts.

We were so far in the hole, off the map, a joke of an organization, no GM wanted to come here and if they did, they would want to run it all. Wes was inbeeded like a tick. We had fat contracts and a crappy team. The heart beat of this town started ticking again when you learned Jordan was coming here. People started talking about how the Bullets curse had finally be raised. Jordan has the clout to stand up to Wes and Abe. Jordan is no Ernie, but he broke the ice, mixed things up, brought us some respect and attention. That's when it all started.

As I said, nothing is all good, but Jordan got this this started, Ernie put it on the raise track, and Abe had the balls to switch horses at the right time.

I think you're the one making up things. I love MJ, but the only thing he did for the Wizards was make money.

You talk about how MJ had the team turn the corner. Really? How come we sucked even worse when he left - shouldn't the "foundation" he left have picked up the pace?

When Jordan left, the organization was in the worst shape EVER. We just fired the greatest player ever, the biggest worldwide icon in the NBA. Why would any GM's want to come work for Abe after he fired the god of basketball??

Not to mention, all the players absolutely HATED MJ. They wouldn't even pitch in to pay for a goodbye gift for him! What coach or GM in their right mind would want to work with such players, who scorned MJ?

Not to mention the moves. Get rid of rising star Rip, get team cancer Craphouse. Get rid of inflated contract Juwan, but get team cancer II Laettner.

If it weren't for Grunfield making awesome countermoves in duping Dallas, we would still SUCK.

MJ did not bring this organization respect. Far from it. He brought us attention. Attention does not equal respect. We were the joke of the NBA, especially when he left. It was like a freak show - you want to see the freaks, but you don't necessarily "like" or "respect" them.

[hands11]

The easiest arguement to make explaining this is simply this, where would we be if Jordan never came here ? Who knows but you wouldnt have the team you have today.

Where were we at the time ? What was our history ? If nothing changes, nothing changes. We would more likely then not continue to do the same crap. We had hope several times along with way. We had stars here. Lots of them. We had a real GM, Nash. But it was our front office of Abe, Wes and La Suz who lead this team to be loosers year after year after year.

Jordan was the ultimate symbol of a WINNER. He was the first major move in the front office in years. This is what started the turnaround. He challanged the power in the front office and got Abe's mind back in the game. He put money in Abe pocket, fans in the seats and hope in thier minds. He got ride of contracts, brought in fresh players and put his reputation on the line by playing again because the players we had didnt know mentally how to play this game. In the end, Abe ended up having enough balls and financial success to actually get ride of Jordan for a more proven GM who wasnt as contriveral who could continue what Jordan started.


Lets turn back the clock. It's so easy to forget how bad it was and for how long.

We were loosers. Many said we were jinxed. The curse of the Bullets. Nothing ever worked out of us. At least not for long. We were agruably the worse franchise in the NBA. We had a loosing mind set. La Suz filled seats by marketing the stars on other teams. Washington paid no attention to the Bullets. Come see " fill in the stars name" play. When you went to games, there were more fans for the opponents then the home team. It sucked. We couldnt get any real coaches to come here at this time. We had to get Leonard Hamilton, that's how much of a joke we were.

Jordan woke this organization and town up. He started to break some eggs. We didn't go staight up, you never do. First it had to be broken, then put back together. Im not saying he put it together all himself or in a perfect straight line. Who in the world could do that anyway. Im just saying he had a major impact on things getting turned around. In the end, I guess you would credit Abe for bringing him here.

Yeah, he wasnt around much in the beginning. Partly because he is Jordan and he was used to a certain life style. Partly because there wasnt much he could do. We were caps out with players with big contracts that sucked. People projected it would be years before we could unload these contracts. He did it in like a year. Once he started to bring in younger talent, it takes time for them to grow. We ended up with so many young players, they needed some leadership, so he returned to lead them. To learn from one of the best. Know many have observed, super stars like Jordan arent always the best teachers. They don't always understand what it like to not be totally dedicated and committed to winning. They don't understand what it's like to not be as talented. This is way they don't alway make the best coaches. It's usually the less talented player who becomes a great coach.

''99-''00 Season Recap

FOR THE THIRD YEAR IN A ROW and the 11th time in the past 12 seasons, the Washington Wizards were on the outside of the playoffs looking in. The team's new part-owner and president of basketball operations says it's time for that to stop. ( Jordan could say this and have people believe him )

The Wizards are hopeful they are building the right mix of veterans and young players to shake their reputation as overpaid underachievers. ( he got ride of these players and contracts. Our contract had this teams hands tied so there was no way of building this team. He got ride of Howard, dont show up to practice on time because of my alarm clock, Strickland who would throw up all the time, and over the hill M Richmond ) For Gods sake, we had so little disapline here, we had to get ride of Webber because we were afraid of his effect on the total team. The organization was out of control, rock bottom, loosers. It was like pulling teeth trying to get this organization and team to understand what a pro team looked like or how a pro player repected and approached the game. We would sign anyone who had a glimmer a talent to a long term expensive contract because we had to for fear of loosing what little we thought we had.

2000/01: Here come Etan Thomas
During the season in which they finished in last place again with a dreadful record of 19-63, Juwan Howard, who grown disgruntled with all the team failures is traded to the Dallas Mavericks along with Obinna Ekezie and Calvin Booth for Hubert Davis, Alexander, Christian Laettner, Loy Vaught and Etan Thomas. ( Howard out, Etan in. Christian was a good egg, though we had to over pay to get him. Thats how it was for this team back then. We did this kind of thing a lot. It wasnt just Jordan. No proven players wanted to play. We only got marginal palyers and paid fat dollars for them. )

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/2001_draft/Picks/1_washington.shtml
Look at the mess we were in. We had to break this roaster before we could fix it.


The whole league had a void at the time. This was one of the reasons Jordan returned. The NBA was a bunch of punk stars. There was no Tim Duncan at the time. The league was having problems with Iverson being the face of the league with all his tatoos) He returned not only for this team, but for the league which was in a slump. Remember, he went out on top. That final shot. The rep of the best player of all time. And at his age, he worked himself back into shape, in a short time to post remarkable numbers. That had to inspire a lot of players.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teamstats?team=was&seasonYear=2001&season=2

"You can't just win with a lot of talented players - we've shown that," Howard said during the final week of the season. "You have to have the right group of guys who understand their roles. We have to have the right coach that's going to use us in the best way possible."


"It's not going to happen tomorrow," Jordan said. "I know I've been dealt some difficult cards. So what? I didn't get to a championship in one year with Chicago. It took seven years. But once we got there, we stayed there. ( how many years has it been since he came here. I think 5. How many before we get to the championship ? Probably 1 or 2 more )

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/wizards/2003-05-08-front-office_x.htm

Jordan overhauled Washington's roster, leaving Jahidi White as the only pre-Jordan player. The Wizards will look to build around young players such as Kwame Brown, who went directly from high school to the No. 1 pick in the 2001 draft, and rookies Juan Dixon and Jared Jefferies.

http://washington.bizjournals.com/washington/stories/2003/05/05/daily24.html

Abe Pollin.

"I firmly believe that Michael's time with us as a player will have a lasting impact on every player on our roster and there is no question that our fans were treated to a very unique two seasons," said Pollin in a statement. "In the end, I felt that this franchise should move in a different direction."

http://money.cnn.com/2001/09/28/companies/column_sportsbiz/

For the man himself, returning to the game means little if any immediate financial payoff. League salary cap rules forced him to sell his minority interest in the Wizards in order to return to the game, although details of that sale have not been released.

Michael Jordan probably won't be adding to his collection of sponsors even with his return to the court.

He'll make the league minimum $1 million salary, which he said he'll donate to a relief fund helping victims of the Sept. 11 attacks. He won't see more from current sponsorship deals, and he probably won't see many new deals due to his return.

2002 ( Jordan bring Haywood here )
Michael Jordan the front office executive should be given credit for the hiring of Collins, the perfect coach to get the most out of this Wizards team, and the trade for rookie center Brendan Haywood, who has shown signs of developing into a dominating NBA pivotman. ( Is anyone saying they didnt like Collin over Lenard. Come on. Remember when we couldnt get a good coach here, that why we have Lenard to begin with. )

Stackhouse in. Hamelton out.

This seemed like a decent move at the time. This team needed a proven star for when Jordan returned to the front office. They also had a decent chance of winning some playoff games with him and Jordan here at the same time. This team needed to relearn how to win, and experience winning. Stackhouse was a 2 time all star... Who know he would miss almost a whole season. I heard plenty of people say we would have won a lot of games last season if we have Jerry, Larry and Gil for the whole year. We rolled the dice and it didnt work out.

That being said, I didnt agree with this deal at the time. I loved Hameltons game, heart and desire. I can at least see what they were trying to do. I though Hamelton would have run with Jordan better then Stack.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5915-2002Sep11?language=printer


Stackhouse, a two-time all-star who just two seasons ago averaged 29.8 points, gives the Wizards a dominant scorer who is known for his toughness and ability to get to the rim in spectacular fashion. Paired with Larry Hughes in the starting back court and occasionally teamed with backup swingman Michael Jordan -- should Jordan, 39, play this season -- Washington now has the potential for an explosive offense

Washington has been maneuvering the past three seasons to clear cap space for next summer.


Hamiton gone. Hughes in ( Larry is a stud and one of our ALL Stars )

Hamilton, whom the Wizards drafted seventh overall in 1999, has emerged as a rising offensive star. He asked for a contract extension earlier this summer and was eager to get a commitment from Washington, especially after it acquired Hughes and Juan Dixon, players who could take his place at shooting guard in the future. ( Hughes ended up taking Hamiton place. Who would you rather have today ? Hamiton left for Stackhouse who left for Jamison)

( Jefferies, Dixon and Hughes )
Washington drafted three players (Jared Jeffries, Dixon, Rod Grizzard), signed free agents Hughes and Russell and made this trade, all with the intent of improving the team in the short and long terms. The Wizards might not be finished, either; they still have a glut of point guards and could be in the market to unload at least one by the midseason trade deadline

2002-2003 ( both of these seem to be working out )

Traded SG Courtney Alexander to New Orleans for 17th overall pick in 2002 Draft (used to select G Juan Dixon. Id do this again).

Drafted F Jared Jeffries with the 11th pick overall ( Jefferies is starting to show signs of why we drafted him. Who know he would blow out his knee the first year ? This slowed down the progress of this team.)

SO HERE IS OUR MJ ROSTER:

Hughes
Haywood
Dixon
Jefferies
Kwame
Etan Thomas


Gilert ?

He got here by flipping a coin. I dont think anyone gets total credit for that other then Luck, which we had none of before.

I would give MJ more credit if anyone. I don't think Gil would even have considered the Wiz 2-3 years before. Hughes was already here and Gil could see we had some young talent that needed more stars. Stars like him. We also had the cap room to sign him. Cap room that was created under MJ. So Gil being here had a lot to do what what MJ did here.

Ernie gets Stack out of here and gives us Jamison while doing a very smart thing, he keeps all the players Jordan helped bring here.

Our coach Jordan 2 wasnt an Ernie move but an Abe move.
I believe Ernie gave us.

Jamison
Hayes
Blake
Peeler
Walker
Ruffin
Ramos

Now how in Gods name can anyone say Jordan didnt have a major major impact on turning this teams around and that he was the one who started it, Not Ernie, Not Jordan 2. They took what Jordan started. It's like a 4x4 replay. It not uncommon to need a certain kind of person to turn things around and then need someone with a clean history to take it from there.

This team is made up of Jordan players. If you love the WIZ we have today, then you should give MJ his props.

[hands11]

Originally posted by ramseyskins


I think you're the one making up things. I love MJ, but the only thing he did for the Wizards was make money.

( I hope that reading my post helps to inform you otherwise and putting money in Abe pocket was very important )

You talk about how MJ had the team turn the corner. Really? How come we sucked even worse when he left - shouldn't the "foundation" he left have picked up the pace?

( Yeah, well, the pieces were in place. Its called most of our current roster. We didnt suck worse )

When Jordan left, the organization was in the worst shape EVER. We just fired the greatest player ever, the biggest worldwide icon in the NBA. Why would any GM's want to come work for Abe after he fired the god of basketball??

( With all do respect, at 22 you feel comfortable talking about the the teams total history and how we were in the worse shape. Ive been watching these guys play and a total fan for as long as you've been alive. )

Not to mention, all the players absolutely HATED MJ. They wouldn't even pitch in to pay for a goodbye gift for him! What coach or GM in their right mind would want to work with such players, who scorned MJ ?

( I never said bringing in Ernie wasnt the right move. And hate them they may, but ask any of them if they respect him, his game, how he approached the game, his talent. Respected, admired or liked. They are different things. No doubt some players got thier feathers ruffled. Jordan is a balls out player and very intense. This team had no heart. )

Not to mention the moves. Get rid of rising star Rip, get team cancer Craphouse. Get rid of inflated contract Juwan, but get team cancer II Laettner. ( Progress isnt a straight line up. )

If it weren't for Grunfield making awesome countermoves in duping Dallas, we would still SUCK. ( no doubt Ernie made a smart move there but if we were playing with Hughes, Gil and Stack, we would still be good this year. How good , who knows. Gil and Hughes are the All Stars. )

MJ did not bring this organization respect. Far from it. He brought us attention. Attention does not equal respect. We were the joke of the NBA, especially when he left. It was like a freak show - you want to see the freaks, but you don't necessarily "like" or "respect" them.

No, the freak show was everything I watched this organization do for 20 years before. The circus of Bol, and Boggs. Thats a freak show. I admit, I was very worried because Abe changed horses when he did and how he did. Seems he could have handled this better then he did. It was a balls move, but it was a good one.

As I said, Jordan started it, Ernie is taking it the next mile.

[Diablo23]

Jordan helped us

if you like it or not

We should be lucky he picked Washington of all teams to play 2 years with :notworthy

[hands11]

Originally posted by Diablo23
Jordan helped us

if you like it or not

We should be lucky he picked Washington of all teams to play 2 years with :notworthy

Thanks Diablo.

At least I know there is one person with sence on this board.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by ramseyskins


I think you're the one making up things. I love MJ, but the only thing he did for the Wizards was make money.

You talk about how MJ had the team turn the corner. Really? How come we sucked even worse when he left - shouldn't the "foundation" he left have picked up the pace?

When Jordan left, the organization was in the worst shape EVER. We just fired the greatest player ever, the biggest worldwide icon in the NBA. Why would any GM's want to come work for Abe after he fired the god of basketball??

Not to mention, all the players absolutely HATED MJ. They wouldn't even pitch in to pay for a goodbye gift for him! What coach or GM in their right mind would want to work with such players, who scorned MJ?

Not to mention the moves. Get rid of rising star Rip, get team cancer Craphouse. Get rid of inflated contract Juwan, but get team cancer II Laettner.

If it weren't for Grunfield making awesome countermoves in duping Dallas, we would still SUCK.

MJ did not bring this organization respect. Far from it. He brought us attention. Attention does not equal respect. We were the joke of the NBA, especially when he left. It was like a freak show - you want to see the freaks, but you don't necessarily "like" or "respect" them.

I absolutely agree. I would've been happy if he made the team better, not a spectacle. Yes, it was nice to be nationally televised for that season. But that didn't make us any better. Every game was a sellout because fans of basketball in general, not wizards fans, simply wanted to see MJ play live one last time. Free agents didn't want to come here anymore than they did before he came.

The old, washed-up veterans played and the young players who would eventually inherit the team sat on the bench and wasted precious time that could've been used in developing their games. As an executive, he was lazy and treated the job like a hobby. On the court, he was condescending to the players and undermined the coach's authority, the same coach he handpicked to lead the team.

I've read nothing in this thread that has shown why he was so good for the team, besides obviously increasing attendance to team record levels for two seasons. So what if he played for a cheap salary by NBA standards, he's worth much more than the league max contract anyway. He could've cared less either way, especially when he envisioned himself owning the team in 5 years or so.

Grunfield, Eddie Jordan, and even Pollin for having the balls to fire an icon, should be credited to how well this team has played this season. If anything, Michael has sabotaged that development through his unwarranted treatment of Kwame Brown, and lack of attention paid to the very same players who are contributing right now( Hughes, Dixon, Haywood, etc,.)

[Gamebreaker]

Hands11,

Believe it or not, alot of what you accredit Jordan to doing in changing the roster should actually be given to Wes Unseld, Rod Higgins, and Fred Whitfield. Michael's only REAL move was the trade for Stackhouse. For his whole time as an executive, he only spent an extended amount of time in D.C. during draft week, where he would review film of the draftees with the front office and scouting staff. Other than that, lord knows what he was doing, but it certainly wasn't running the team. Unseld was basically still running things, he just had to check-in and get approval with MJ on all the moves he made.

[aejm1400]

Abe's decision of getting someone here new was what starting things going. The fact that he choose MJ was just to get people to talk about the team(and eventually make them alot of money.)

MJ may have gotten those players here, but he didn't make the wizards the team they are today. When coach/player MJ(we know Doug wasn't the coach) was trying to run the team on the court, it was bout him and not the wizards. And that's why Abe got rid of him after he was done playing. All he did was put fans in the seats and make the Wizards money. He didn't help the guys he had come in to improve their game, he expect his old Bulls teammates despite the youth of the team.

His second year is a prime example. He started as a 6th man but couldn't keep coming off the bench so he put himself in the starting lineup. If his goal was team improvement, he would have stayed as the 6th man. If your a young guy playing on an MJ team, and he sits you so he can play, where would your confidence level be?

Reguardless of players he got here or not, he didn't make the team the winner it is today. That was the committment the team made to Eddie Jordon by not firing him after one year, and the move to get Jamison. Those moves built the team attitude that has been missing. That was the one thing the Wizards really needed from MJ, and he didn't supply it.

[Yusuf06]

MJ was only indirectly responsible for the improvements we're seeing in the team now. Pollin knew that after firing MJ he was going to have to finallyhire somebody competant to run the team or he was going to finally lose the fanbase he spent so many years building:rolleyes: Therefore, he was forced by circumstance to hire Grunfeld. A real GM plus E. Jordan and a few really good personell moves later *POOF* you have a competitive team (are you listening Danny??).

No MJ=no desperation move by Pollin. We'd still have LaSooz and Unseld running things on the cheap.

[hands11]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Hands11,

Believe it or not, alot of what you accredit Jordan to doing in changing the roster should actually be given to Wes Unseld, Rod Higgins, and Fred Whitfield. Michael's only REAL move was the trade for Stackhouse. For his whole time as an executive, he only spent an extended amount of time in D.C. during draft week, where he would review film of the draftees with the front office and scouting staff. Other than that, lord knows what he was doing, but it certainly wasn't running the team. Unseld was basically still running things, he just had to check-in and get approval with MJ on all the moves he made.

Jordan did more the Stackhouse. Do you own research. Pull the players names and read the articles. Im not doing that one again.

And where did all those people come from ?

People. Open your eyes. Im not writting most of this stuff. I just finding articles and filling in some on my own take here and there.
Im not saying Abe didnt play a role. I didnt say Jordan did it all himself or that he didnt make some mistakes. I think Im being ballance. Giving credit to more then one person and admitting it didnt go in a straight line.

Are youll actually reading everything Im posting. Cuz if you are arent, please do before you comment. If you are reading it, then, well, ahh, I guess that's why they hand out grades in school. Let me try again for some of the more hard headed ones here.

Under the dotted line is not written by meeee. OK. But, this is accurate to what I recall the situation when Jordan got here.

No draft picks.
No room under the cap. Long contracts.
Crappy players.
Luxury cap coming up.
Crappy front office.

Jordan brought Higgins here......
You said Wes Unseld had something to do with us being good. Hold on, let me get off the floor. That guy is why I have no hair. He was the BIGGEST problem we had. This is why Jordan got Higgins. So Unseld had a babby sitter. This was the first place Jordan had an effect. And a huge on at that. In all my years as a Bullets/Wiz fan, I can't ever remember being more happy then the day I heard Wez was leaving the front office. Well, that was second to Jordan coming here. 3rd was use getting Ernie.

I dont know if youll are just to young to remember this, but it was really really really bad for a long long long time. UP UNTIL JORDAN GOT HERE.
--------------------------

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/2000_draft/Picks/30_washington.htm

I. Draft History
Recent draft history is a slim one with respect to 1st round picks. Last year we took Richard Hamilton which turned out to be a reasonable pick. He was inconsistent for much of the year but ended up playing well as the season wound down. Surprisingly to me, he successfully played some PG. The team gave up 3 1sts for Webber and sacrificed another when Juwan Howard's deal with Miami was voided and another was sacrificed to obtain Mark Price. Fortunately, this will be the last year in which we will not have 1st as a result of the Webber deal.

II. Team needs
This team needs to rebuild but they will find it extremely difficult to do so. The biggest problem in this regard is the salary cap. The Wizards self inflicted cap problems are mostly due to Juwan Howard but also to Rod Strickland and Mitch Richmond who both make $10M/year. These 3 players will be very difficult to trade with the luxury tax taking effect soon. The teams biggest needs are for more size at Center and for an athletic all court Small Forward, that and for Howard, Richmond and Strickland to return to a level of play closer to their career averages.

Coaching and Managment
As most know, Michael Jordon became a minority owner in January raising fan interest and long term optimism. He quickly fired coach Gar Heard who had lost the support and respect of the players. Darrel Walker replaced him. It was widely reported that MJ wanted Rod Higgins but GS refused to release him. Walker did a decent job and was retained by the team in a front office position. Higgins also joined the front office after the season. Within days of this writing, the Wizards finally hired their new coach, Leonard Hamilton of Miami. He seems to be a reasonable choice but I thought the same thing about Gar Heard who clearly did not work out. This all after a widely reported negotiation with former GW and current St John's coach Mike Jarvis.

( Higgins is now the GM of Golden State )
http://www.nba.com/warriors/news/higgins_named_gm_052004.html

VII Other moves the team should make
If they could trade Juwan they should. As he makes too much money, that is not likely. A trade of Strickland or Mitch should also be attempted however these are still potentially good players who they should be able to get something for. There was once talk of working a deal out with Detroit to unload Austin for the retired Dele. Austin should be moved, again if we can get something for him. Murray would like to be traded and could be an asset on the right team and he does not make an unreasonable salary.

( We got ride of all these contract. I had forgot about Ike Austin. Dame, we were in a bind. Jordan brought Higgins here to get Wes out of the way. Wes was Abe's butt pale for like, the 19 years we sucked.)

--------------

Jordan brought Fred Whitfield

http://newsweaver.co.uk/kogod/e_article000330362.cfm?x=b11,0,w
He was his buddy from Nike.

Fred Whitfield, a longtime friend whom Jordan, in his former capacity as team president, hired in May 2000 as assistant legal counsel and salary-cap expert. He become:
Fred Whitfield Director of Player Personnel position

----------------------

http://www.nba.com/wizards/news/training_coaches-37726-56.html

Stricker was contacted by the Wizards front office at the end of the 2000-01 season about becoming the team's head trainer. After interviews with General Manager Wes Unseld, Assistant General Manager Rod Higgins, then President of Basketball Operations Michael Jordan and Head Coach Doug Collins, Stricker was hired as the Wizards new Head Trainer.


--------------------------

Look at all the deals it took to reshape this team.
http://www.wizards-tickets.com/

------------------------

Know you may not have liked the trade, and it ended up not working out but Stack was a 2 time All Star and average 28pts a couple of years before. Sounds like Jordan know what was going on from this article. Stake was only 27 at the time.

The 27-year-old shooting guard relishes the fresh start, especially with Jordan

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2002/09/12/stack_wizards_ap/

-------------------------


Now people. I know its hard to change your views but these are the facts. Im not posting just my own views, though I remember things exactly as Im readying them again.


This is what happen. Jordan was the architect. He changed the front office. He and his people changed this roster. Him playing for 1 mil a year was huge. It kept our cap clear so we could get players like Gil later. It put money in Abes pocket and he almost got us to the playoffs.

Was he buddy buddy with the players. No. He was MJ for Gods sake. He was tough. He had more money then God and couldnt leave his house without peopele sworming him. He barely could made it from the court to the locker room. I have no idea what effect that must have on someone. He doesnt live a normal life like us. He is as famous as Ali. Around the world. This isnt the same MJ who was drafted from NC to Chicago. He had already done it all. And he came here. Changed our front office, played some golf, and played on the court for us. Its all connected. The money in Abes pockets, Gil getting signed.

Then Ernie and Jordan took it from there. Why cant you people learn the true history of the Wiz ?

Maybe at the end of the day, it came down to what it always does. Power, money and Ego. Abe may have started to see that Jordan was pushing him out. The front office was Jordan people, we were turning the corner, Jordan had sold his shares, Abe bumps him aside, puts him guy in after he hires the coach. Abes gets all the credit, hes the hero, he still owns the team. The value is going way up, when he sells, he gets all the money and the glory. It's a dog eat dog world.

[hands11]

I know its a ton of information, but you have to actually click the links I post. Crap I didnt even read it all. But it all supports my view that Jordan was the first important thing that happened here. Everything else happened as a result of what he started.
He and the people he brought to the front office.


SEE THIS....

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/2001_draft/Picks/1_washington.shtml

Jordan made some great moves this year and has shed his roster of the under achievers and malcontents. Trading Howard and his contract to Dallas may end up being one of the greatest deals in NBA history simply for the fact that they got some serviceable players and a future star in return and Jordan freed up some cap room for the 2002 off-season. Buying out Strickland also freed up cap space and if Richmond is bought out this summer as most expect, well then, the Wiz will be the major player in the Vince Carter sweepstakes.

((((There was talk of Jordan being named the Executive of the Year, simply because he did what most figured could never be done. But that is Jordan's trademark isn't it.)))))

READ READ READ PEOPLE............

With Jordan bringing Collins on board, this team is headed in the right direction. Collins and Jordan respect each other and Jordan knows how Collins works and how hard he works. In his two years with the Wizards, Jordan has taken what could have been a bad team for a long time and made it into a team that has a bright future

[Gamebreaker]

Know what, Hands? You can believe whatever you want, no matter how far off base and inaccurate it may be. Higgins babysat Unseld? Higgins and Whitfield followed Unseld's orders and did whatever he told them to do. The both of them did a great job in their time here, but you are obviously making stuff to say Jordan planted Higgins there to just babysit Unseld.

Playing golf every day and all calling in to see how things are going is not cool. Do you believe other managers who run NBA teams do that every day?

Matter of fact, don't even bother answering. The two of us are never going to agree on this, so we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Bugs']

I agree with Gamebreaker that some people are going to attribute our recent success to MJ and others (like myself) are not. Let's leave it at that and move on to other things....like the present. :rolleyes:

[hands11]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Know what, Hands? You can believe whatever you want, no matter how far off base and inaccurate it may be. Higgins babysat Unseld? Higgins and Whitfield followed Unseld's orders and did whatever he told them to do. The both of them did a great job in their time here, but you are obviously making stuff to say Jordan planted Higgins there to just babysit Unseld.

Playing golf every day and all calling in to see how things are going is not cool. Do you believe other managers who run NBA teams do that every day?

Matter of fact, don't even bother answering. The two of us are never going to agree on this, so we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

It not a matter of me believing what I want. Im posting articles of fact so if Im inaccurate, then history is inaccurate.

It you and Buggs want to disagree with me, but have posted no facts to contridict what I posted. Actually, Im not sure how you could do that because Im posting actually articles of history: who we had, salaries, what draft picks we had, what moves we made , who was in control and our record.

Now maybe the bringing in Higgins to baby sit Unseld was a little to much flavor on mybehalf ( see unlike you guys, I am willing to admit were I may have over stated my possition. That comment really isnt that important to my agruement anyway. I probably shouldnt have even wrote that, though it was my view at the time he came here. )

Unseld was in his role for many many year and never produced a winner here. Was it all his fault. I dont know. Maybe he didnt have a good team in the front office with him. He is to blame for that, he was in charge. ( Jordan brought him some help )

He actually built a nice team and organization at one point when he had Nash as the GM and that little Irish dude Jim Lynam as the coach. But then he let is fall apart. He fired Nash over the Howard deal because Juan felt "dissed " over Nash not signing him to a big contract right out of college. Then he got ride a Jimmy L after that. Then we went down hill again.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/teams/history/WAS

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nba/washingtonmanagers.htm

With Unseld at the helm. Were where we going ? He was and effective GM. He was terrible.

1994-95 21 61 7th
1993-94 24 58 7th
1992-93 22 60 7th
1991-92 25 57 6th
1990-91 30 52 4th
1989-90 31 51 4th
1988-89 40 42 4th
1987-88 38 44 2nd

We were good for years. Then Unseld became coach and then GM and we have sucked ever since. If you didnt like what Jordan did, how can you like what Unseld did? How is this different. Both star players. Jordan was a bigger star. Both left of office possitions. Wes coached / GM. Jordan become President, then a player/President. Wow, Im just remember all this more clearly. This was the same crap, different day. Unseld was in this post for far longer then Jordan and I can at least connect the dots that show Jordan made far better moves. The move that lead to the team you now love.

Unseld was a terrible. Its well documented.
( READ THIS ARTICLE - PLEASE)
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_16_223/ai_54492471

[hands11]

Of my, just reading this stuff is bringing back the pain.

We were so bad in every way.

Remember, Wes got his control in 1987

This was the circus. MJ was nothing compared to this.

Bol and Mugsy
We missed out on Karl Malone for who ?
Hoops being ejected
Here they talk about the home crowd and the sea of green with the Celtics would come here.

He was GM during our name change.

You may say the Fans only showed up to see MJ, not the Wizards, but MJ was a Wizard. They were actually cheering for us, no the other team.

http://www.realgm.com/src_fan_articles.php?artid=wiz_miz

[hands11]

Oh, and Im way off base with my evaluation of Wes Unseld as a GM. Here is an intereting we page.

Hes only ranked, WORST GM IN THE NBA 2002

http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2002/0912/1430767.html

This is the guy you hanging your hat on ?
This is the fellow your giving credit to ?

History states other wise. He had his chance since 1987.
He sucked as a coach. He sucked as a GM.

My 2 happiest moment as a Bullets/Wiz fan were when he stopped coaching and when he left the front office.

Now, on the other hand. I have posted all the facts that show, once MJ came here. Things started to turn around. He didnt do it all by himself, but it was all after he got here.

The roster changed to a young talented roster.
This happened after we got ride of the over paid, under performing, big long contract players we had.

[hands11]

And for those of you that want to give Abe the credit. Yes, he deserves credit for bringing MJ here. He deserves credit for signing Gil and bringing in Ernie.

He is also the person that since 1987 keep Unseld in possitions of power that made this team suck for 16 years. Better late then never I alway say.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Ok, I don't agree with you. He turned us around? They still didn't make the playoffs when he played for us. Like I said before, all I think he did was inflate the value of the team for two years while he played and cost us decent draft picks. How did he add to our success? By trading Rip Hamilton for Jerry Wackhouse? I don't blame him for Kwame cause if you look at that draft there really isn't much else he could have done. It was a horrible draft, especially to have the 1st overall in. However, I honestly can't think of one thing Jordan did to help the franchise. Yeah they got attention but the attention wasn't for the Wizards it was for him. His first coach was a disaster(Leonard Hamilton), his second coach mind-raped Kwame (Doug Collins) and like I said, THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. I like Jarvis, Jared, and Juan (too many J's AHHH!) but those were some decent drafts and I wish the team had gotten the picks they should have, if not for MJ's SELFISH retirement tour. For the 2002 draft say he didn't play, say they got the 5th overall pick, which is being generous in my opinion, instead of the 11th. They could have gotten Amar Stoudamire(9th overall), Caron Butler(10th overall), or Nene Hillario(7th overall). Lets make the same arguement for the 2003 draft. Jordan doesn't play and instead of getting Jarvis Hayes, who I do like, with the 10th overall pick we are drafting 5th. We could have gotten Dwayne Wade(5th overall),Chris Kaman(6th overall), Kirk Hinrich(7th overall), or TJ Ford(8th overall).


Abe Pollin made the right move by getting rid of MJ. I think he saw that as long as MJ was here it would never be about the Wizards as a team but about MJ the part owner, MJ the General Manager, MJ the selfish prick, and MJ the whatever else.

The people you need to be thanking are Eddie Jordan and Ernie Grunfeld. They are the reason we are what we are now and they will be the reason we will continue to be successful. Don't forget to give Abe props for booting MJ's megalomaniac ass out of town and getting Jordan, of the Eddie variety, and Grunfeld instead. People can say what they want about Abe but I honestly think he really cares about the team and it's fans. That's more then you can say about a lot of owners.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Question.

What does the title of this thread mean? The REAL MJ deservs all our thanks and respect?

Who is the fake MJ?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Originally posted by hands11
Of my, just reading this stuff is bringing back the pain.

We were so bad in every way.

Remember, Wes got his control in 1987

This was the circus. MJ was nothing compared to this.

Mol and Muggy
We missed out on Carl Malone for who ?
Hoops being ejected
Here they talk about the home crowd and the sea of green with the Celtics would come here.

He was GM during our name change.

You may say the Fans only showed up to see MJ, not the Wizards, but MJ was a Wizard. They were actually cheering for us, no the other team.

http://www.realgm.com/src_fan_articles.php?artid=wiz_miz

I am now wondering why I am even arguing with you. Mol? Try Bol. Muggy? Try Mugsy. Carl Malone? Try Karl. I think I see what's going on here. Yes Jordan was a great player but that was last decade. Get off his nuts and look at things with an objective mind.

[Skins11]

Look. MJ did some good things, he did some bad things. But it has been two years since he had anything to do with the team.

Of course he made moves that let us construct our current team. . Obviously. You can argue this to death, saying "if MJ didn't trade for team cancer Stackhouse, we would never have Jamison". However, MJ is NOT the one who traded Craphouse away, so you can't give him credit for that.

He made some good moves by getting Etan and Hughes (who only turned out to be really good recently). He also made some killer ones like Stackhouse. So he deserves the credit and the blame.

Just giving him "thanks and respect" is like attributing the Skins' future success with Gibbs (when it comes :) ) to Spurrier, since Gibbs will have used some players that Spurrier got to build a successful team.

The point is, MJ did not construct this team. I thank him for coming to the team sometimes since I loved MJ the player. In his halfassed way, he made some good moves combined with killer moves. But he did not construct this team, hire the right coach, or hire the right GM to put the pieces together, which is quite important.

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83
Ok, I don't agree with you. He turned us around? They still didn't make the playoffs when he played for us. Like I said before, all I think he did was inflate the value of the team for two years while he played and cost us decent draft picks. How did he add to our success? By trading Rip Hamilton for Jerry Wackhouse? I don't blame him for Kwame cause if you look at that draft there really isn't much else he could have done. It was a horrible draft, especially to have the 1st overall in. However, I honestly can't think of one thing Jordan did to help the franchise. Yeah they got attention but the attention wasn't for the Wizards it was for him. His first coach was a disaster(Leonard Hamilton), his second coach mind-raped Kwame (Doug Collins) and like I said, THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. I like Jarvis, Jared, and Juan (too many J's AHHH!) but those were some decent drafts and I wish the team had gotten the picks they should have, if not for MJ's SELFISH retirement tour. For the 2002 draft say he didn't play, say they got the 5th overall pick, which is being generous in my opinion, instead of the 11th. They could have gotten Amar Stoudamire(9th overall), Caron Butler(10th overall), or Nene Hillario(7th overall). Lets make the same arguement for the 2003 draft. Jordan doesn't play and instead of getting Jarvis Hayes, who I do like, with the 10th overall pick we are drafting 5th. We could have gotten Dwayne Wade(5th overall),Chris Kaman(6th overall), Kirk Hinrich(7th overall), or TJ Ford(8th overall).


Abe Pollin made the right move by getting rid of MJ. I think he saw that as long as MJ was here it would never be about the Wizards as a team but about MJ the part owner, MJ the General Manager, MJ the selfish prick, and MJ the whatever else.

The people you need to be thanking are Eddie Jordan and Ernie Grunfeld. They are the reason we are what we are now and they will be the reason we will continue to be successful. Don't forget to give Abe props for booting MJ's megalomaniac ass out of town and getting Jordan, of the Eddie variety, and Grunfeld instead. People can say what they want about Abe but I honestly think he really cares about the team and it's fans. That's more then you can say about a lot of owners.

From reading your post, you obviosly havent read mine so why bother making it look like you are responding to somthing I wrote.

You make statement that have already been addressed and you are posting your view with no links to support your claims. You are over simplifing things. Im posting information for those that want to learn, not those who dont want to read.

Us not making the playoffs is not an accurate messure to what Im claiming happened. This teams was such a mess, it was going to take more then 1 year to turn it around. I have posted articles on this. It happen faster then most thought. I posted artlicles on that. Credit MJ directly or not, but he was in the seat as President when it happened. Thats a fact. We have do cut this team first. I have posted articles on that. For those who credit Abe. Well he is the one who had Wes in charge for 16 years. Thats a fact. For those who credit Wes, he had 16 year to change things and was rated the worst GM in the league. Thats a fact. For those who credit Ernie, he wasnt even here when these moves where make. Nor was Eddie Jordan. Thats a fact.

Beside, we almost made the playoffs twice. Closer then we had been except one year with Webber. Had Jordan not gotten hurt, we probably go that first year. The next year, the team took a dive and almost made it but they didnt wake up soon enough.
I have posted articles on this. These are facts.

Anyway. Here is your roster:

Players added since MJ was President:

Hughes ( Starter - all star in my view )
Haywood ( Starter - 8th in blocks - coming along )
Dixon ( 6th man, spark plug )
Jefferies (starter - coming along )
Kwame ( poor draft that year - still waiting on him )
Etan Thomas ( Valuable player off the bench )


Gilert ? ( starter - all star in my view )

Who got here by flipping a coin. I dont think anyone gets total credit for that other then Luck, which we had none of before.

I would give MJ more credit if anyone. I don't think Gil would even have considered the Wiz 2-3 years before. Hughes was already here and Gil could see we had some young talent that needed more stars. Stars like him. We also had the cap room to sign him. Cap room that was created under MJ. So Gil being here had a lot to do what what MJ did here.


So how do you credit Ernie and Edde Jordan? These player were already here. Ernie trades Jerry for Jamison, which was great, but we had Jerry because we traded Rip for Jerry becuase we had Hughes and we needed another F becuase we had enough guards.

So like I said. I like Ernie. He has done well keeping what was here and doing some good things since, but he didnt put this thing together. It was mostly already together. The cap was already cleared. He didnt do that work. It was done under the MJ resheme.

If your not going to read what I write and the article I post, please dont bother to try to refute what I post. It just make you look silly.

[hands11]

Originally posted by ramseyskins
Look. MJ did some good things, he did some bad things. But it has been two years since he had anything to do with the team.

Of course he made moves that let us construct our current team. . Obviously. You can argue this to death, saying "if MJ didn't trade for team cancer Stackhouse, we would never have Jamison". However, MJ is NOT the one who traded Craphouse away, so you can't give him credit for that.

He made some good moves by getting Etan and Hughes (who only turned out to be really good recently). He also made some killer ones like Stackhouse. So he deserves the credit and the blame.

Just giving him "thanks and respect" is like attributing the Skins' future success with Gibbs (when it comes :) ) to Spurrier, since Gibbs will have used some players that Spurrier got to build a successful team.

The point is, MJ did not construct this team. I thank him for coming to the team sometimes since I loved MJ the player. In his halfassed way, he made some good moves combined with killer moves. But he did not construct this team, hire the right coach, or hire the right GM to put the pieces together, which is quite important.

This is much more along the lines of what I have been posting the whole time. Good things, bad things and he didnt do it all himself, but he did some really good things that have a lot to do with why we are what we are.

I never said he had anything to do with us trading Stack for Jamison. Ernie did that. It was an awesome move. But a the time we got Stack, it didnt look so stupid. He was a 2 time all star, we needed a Forward and we had to many guards, and Rip was in a contract year.

Your Gibbs / Sperrier analogy would be a hard one to make. Yeah, he played Ramsey, which may end up being important, but he almost killed the kid with no protection in the process. Sperrier also was only a coach, not President or GM like Wes ( coach/GM ) or MJ President/player. These are different situations. Steve lost S Davis and we got nothing for him. These are very differernt things anyway. Plus a Football team has 52 players. Way more moving parts then a BB team. Lets keep the comparisons in at least the same sport.

Now if you want to look back 7 years from now after someone replaces Gibbs, Im sure we can connect the dots to the team turning the corner.

Interesting. You say he didnt construct this team, yet he was at the head post when much of this team was constructed and you admit we made some nice moves and some killer moves. Sounds like he was in charge when the team was contracted. He was the head post when it happened.

So answer me this.

Who was President of the Wiz when the following happen?

We got ride of 3 large contracts for Strickland, Howard and Mitch Richmond?

What move could we make without getting ride of those contracts and did we want those players ?

Who was president when the following players we added ?

Hughes ( Starter - all star in my view )
Haywood ( Starter - 8th in blocks - coming along )
Dixon ( 6th man, spark plug )
Jefferies (starter - coming along )
Kwame ( poor draft that year - still waiting on him )
Etan Thomas ( Valuable player off the bench )

Let me save you the effect. MJ was the President.
We did all these things. This is major. If these things didn’t happen, most likely there would be no Ernie here and Eddie wouldn’t be teaching them anything because they wont be here.

He was at the post when all this happened, and put money in Abs pocket, and fans in the seats. Money Abe used to sign Gil.

Ernie and Eddie came later. All deserve credit. All are important.
MJ was here first. He did the first moves. This is what many would call the TRANSITION. Now you are seeing the REWARDS.

You would have seen them last year but all 3 of our stars were hurt most the season. Who know what Stack would have done if he wasn’t hurt. He is still a good player, he lit us up the other night.

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83


I am now wondering why I am even arguing with you. Mol? Try Bol. Muggy? Try Mugsy. Carl Malone? Try Karl. I think I see what's going on here. Yes Jordan was a great player but that was last decade. Get off his nuts and look at things with an objective mind.

ahh, very mature. So when arguing a valid point isnt possible, you attack my spelling ? What does that have to do with anything? I didnt proof read those last posts. Give it a break.
For those like you, I will return to fix the spelling of those names as to not take away from the facts.

Not to pull the age thing on you. I think there are smart people of all ages. But, consider the fact that you weren't around for much of the teams history. I watched them win the world championship. I watched them before that and ever since. I've read the papers and follow this team make blunder after blunder then whole way. I also have a degree in business marketing and I am a success business owner so I have some insight into the business moves that have been made. Im not saying all these things in and of themselves make me correct, but you may consider the fact that I have this experience to go along with my views. Also, these arent just my views. I post the articles to support what Im saying.

I wouldnt begin to tell someone about what happen in Vietman who lived through it. I was to young. I can read, but thats not the same. I asked people questions who were around during the times of things Im interested in. You want to know about what it was like growing up in the 70's and 80's I can tell you. I would have to ask you what it was like during the 90's. All though I was around, I dont know what it was like for you growing up. You would have to teach me that one.

Actually the stuff Im talking about are current events. This has little to do with MJ as a player.

Actually, Im sure many readers see what Im posting as objective. Im posting facts and articles. How is that not objective? What your posting sounds like childish rantings, sour grapes because MJ was to selfish, he hurt Kwames feelings, and he got a lot of attention while the team still missed the playoffs.

All of those things may be true, but they have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83
Question.

What does the title of this thread mean? The REAL MJ deservs all our thanks and respect?

Who is the fake MJ?


That would be the one who didnt have anything to do with this teams turning the corner. Are you reading this thread ?

This is what we are talking about.

[hands11]

Originally posted by Yusuf06
MJ was only indirectly responsible for the improvements we're seeing in the team now. Pollin knew that after firing MJ he was going to have to finallyhire somebody competant to run the team or he was going to finally lose the fanbase he spent so many years building:rolleyes: Therefore, he was forced by circumstance to hire Grunfeld. A real GM plus E. Jordan and a few really good personell moves later *POOF* you have a competitive team (are you listening Danny??).

No MJ=no desperation move by Pollin. We'd still have LaSooz and Unseld running things on the cheap.

This is very close to what I’m saying. You saying indirectly responsible, I say he had a lot to do with it.

I’m not sure Abe knew that at the time of hiring MJ or not. We have no way of knowing that. I do think that it got to a boiling point with MJ making some miscalculation. I can find an article about this if needed. Basically, MJ stepped on the wrong toe. That toe belonged to La Sue's foot. Abe loves his people. His people were Wes and La Suz. MJ and La Sue didn’t get along at all. Some say, one had to go. MJ thought it would be La Suz, he was wrong.

That was one thing. The second was. MJ was controversial. He cracked some eggs. Eggs that needed crack as far as I see it. The Kwame thing was one thing.

MJ and Abe are 2 very different types of people. In the end, Abe wanted control and flexed his muscle. I think he was afraid MJ was going to dump players when he got to the front office again. MJ has said, now that I’ve played with them and players around the league, I know who can play and who can’t.

Abe chose La Suz, the players, power, money, success, over giving MJ a second shot.

He went for the sure thing. The organization, roster, cap space, all looked much better so he could attract a quality GM like Ernie, so he did. This was a scrod move and it worked.

[hands11]

opps

[hands11]

Originally posted by aejm1400
Abe's decision of getting someone here new was what starting things going. The fact that he choose MJ was just to get people to talk about the team(and eventually make them alot of money.)

MJ may have gotten those players here, but he didn't make the wizards the team they are today. When coach/player MJ(we know Doug wasn't the coach) was trying to run the team on the court, it was bout him and not the wizards. And that's why Abe got rid of him after he was done playing. All he did was put fans in the seats and make the Wizards money. He didn't help the guys he had come in to improve their game, he expect his old Bulls teammates despite the youth of the team.

His second year is a prime example. He started as a 6th man but couldn't keep coming off the bench so he put himself in the starting lineup. If his goal was team improvement, he would have stayed as the 6th man. If your a young guy playing on an MJ team, and he sits you so he can play, where would your confidence level be?

Reguardless of players he got here or not, he didn't make the team the winner it is today. That was the committment the team made to Eddie Jordon by not firing him after one year, and the move to get Jamison. Those moves built the team attitude that has been missing. That was the one thing the Wizards really needed from MJ, and he didn't supply it.

You think Abe chose MJ ? That's an interesting take. MJ was possible the best player ever and maybe the most famous person athlete in the world. Im sure MJ had other options. Abe made a deal with MJ. MJ wasnt just the President, he was a part owner. As in most business arrangement, you enter them because both people benefit. MJ needed a franshise and an opprotunity. He wanted back in the action. Life was getting boring. He needed a new challange. Abe needed someone with credibilty, exposure, and BB smarts to help turn around his dieing franchise.

Abe made a deal then he later broke it. He ended up having to pay MJ 10 MIL to settle. MJ got beat out in a business deal. They needed each other in the beginning. They made a business deal. MJ lost his leverage when he sold his shares so he could play. The agreement was he would return to the front office when done on the floor. MJ played for only 1 mil a year to help clear the cap and because why over pay yourself when you already rich and your actually investing in your own business. He was an owner. He would get it back later. Abe took advantage of this legal possition he had and fired MJ and paid him off. So MJ made 10 mil over 2 years when he was in a possition to do much better then this as the team value when up. MJ was also pressing to get ride of La Suz. Abe didnt want that.

Now Abe hold all the marbles. This was about business, power and money more then MJ being effective or not.

[Gamebreaker]

Hands,

So this had nothing to do with being effective or not? I guess the whole organization thinking he failed and not wanting him to return had nothing to do with it. Or maybe the fact that Ted Leonsis and MJ collaborated together before coming to Abe with the proposal might have something to do with it.

Seriously, you should learn the facts about the situation before you go making things up as you go along. Somehow, it always ends up being that nothing was ever MJ's fault. When a great deal of the problems during his tenure were. Abe Pollin, is all about respect and loyalty, he had every intention on bringing MJ back as executive after he played. But he also never intended on what happened while Jordan played to happen.

Abe had intended years ago for Leonsis to take over for him as Wizards owner HE felt it was time to step down. Leonsis came to him with the proposal to make MJ a part owner and run the team, but was assured that Jordan would have a minority percentage of the team when Leonsis took over. Yet he told MJ he would turn the team over to him once Pollin sold it to him.

That is why Jordan lashed out at Leonsis during the meeting when Pollin fired him. Jordan was mad because Leonsis told him he would be owning this team, and he knew that was never going to happen. To say Abe took advantage of MJ, when MJ was taking advantage of Abe from the very beginning is blind homerism. Why do you think the Bucks owner changed his mind at pretty much the last second, in selling his team to Jordan? People who walk in those circles know all about that situation, and that is why MJ has ruined his chances of ever owning a NBA team.

His best chance was to go into business with Bobcats owner Bob Johnson, but after leading Johnson on for months without making a real commitment Bob took the offer off the table. He's alienated alot of people in those circles, and unfortunately for him, they aren't enamored with his public persona to let him get away with whatever he wants.

As an African American, I think it would've been great to see two black men owning two different NBA franchises, or the both of them running one together. MJ just went about it the wrong way and it's a damn shame.

[Gamebreaker]

Furthermore, it was well known that MJ and Susan O' Malley didn't get along. Yet Pollin's decision came not from consulting O'Malley, but from bringing in the team and staff one at a time and asking their opinions on MJ the executive. None of them endorsed him, none of them felt he did anything that would not have been done without him (except for selling out arenas of course). This is what got MJ fired, his inability to work with others and lack of dedication to the job.

Also, giving credit to MJ for moves that Unseld, who was still acting as general manager, made is hilarious. Citing Unseld's shortcomings in the past doesn't change the fact that MJ was on a golf course relaxing while Unseld was working. It doesn't change the fact that MJ did little more than say yes or no to decisions brought forth by Unseld's negotiations. That is like Art Modell getting credit for bringing his franchise a superbowl, when Ozzie Newsome and Brian Billick did all the work. That is like a movie star taking credit for doing all of his own stunts when he really had a stuntman.

[Skins11]

Originally posted by hands11


You would have seen them last year but all 3 of our stars were hurt most the season. Who know what Stack would have done if he wasn’t hurt. He is still a good player, he lit us up the other night.

I have a problem this part. Craphouse forever is and was a black hole. My Detroit fan friends were jumping for joy when the deal went down. My Sixer fan friends told me I was getting a MUCH worse version of Iverson - and at least Iverson lays it out on the line every night.

The guy only puts forth effort when he wants to, doesn't pass the ball, and is a bad locker room presence. Actually, I think Jordan's second year would have been not as rocky if we kept Rip. The previous year, with Rip and MJ missing significant amounts of time, and Kwame averaging 4.7 points a game, we still almost made the playoffs. But, I digress.

I thought the team played better with Stackhouse out and Hayes starting in place of him.

He is a skilled player... perhaps.. although he is older. He is still pulling the same BS in Dallas I think - only trying hard when he feels like it. I was pretty down on the wizards before the season until the the guy was traded... and Laettner too to boot!

We wouldn't be successful if he was still here. I contend we would still be losing BADLY. Our "big 3" wouldn't exist... it would all revolve around one guy... and Arenas would end up jacking up more 3s and turning the ball over more.

Arenas and Stackhouse really never had it going with each other... just like MJ and Stackhouse didn't. MJ and Rip though - that was a good combo.

If Ernie didn't pull off this genius move, this team would still suck, and according to you, we would have MJ to thank for that since he is supposed to be directly responsible for the state of our team right now.

And dude... it's pretty lame that you keep up bringing up the age of everyone who is refuting your points. Just because you were around longer to see the team struggle doesn't mean you can make untruths about what Jordan did for the team just a few years ago.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by ramseyskins

And dude... it's pretty lame that you keep up bringing up the age of everyone who is refuting your points. Just because you were around longer to see the team struggle doesn't mean you can make untruths about what Jordan did for the team just a few years ago.

:applause: :applause: :doh:

[aejm1400]

I don't need to see years of Wizards games to know that there were alot of "Me" Wizards players. I think if Stack was still here Arenas would be headed down that path like he was some last year. I don't see that "me" player this year. Although I'm still unsure what Kwame is thinking because we haven't seen him play that much.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
What stuff are people making up? I haven't seen anything false yet.

I think he might be one of the people who believes
that Michael Jordan is the second coming and can do no
wrong. MJ did not turn this team around or instill a winning
attitude. To be truthful, most of the players hated his guts.
And with good reason.

[hands11]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Hands,

So this had nothing to do with being effective or not? I guess the whole organization thinking he failed and not wanting him to return had nothing to do with it. Or maybe the fact that Ted Leonsis and MJ collaborated together before coming to Abe with the proposal might have something to do with it.

Seriously, you should learn the facts about the situation before you go making things up as you go along. Somehow, it always ends up being that nothing was ever MJ's fault. When a great deal of the problems during his tenure were. Abe Pollin, is all about respect and loyalty, he had every intention on bringing MJ back as executive after he played. But he also never intended on what happened while Jordan played to happen.

Abe had intended years ago for Leonsis to take over for him as Wizards owner HE felt it was time to step down. Leonsis came to him with the proposal to make MJ a part owner and run the team, but was assured that Jordan would have a minority percentage of the team when Leonsis took over. Yet he told MJ he would turn the team over to him once Pollin sold it to him.

That is why Jordan lashed out at Leonsis during the meeting when Pollin fired him. Jordan was mad because Leonsis told him he would be owning this team, and he knew that was never going to happen. To say Abe took advantage of MJ, when MJ was taking advantage of Abe from the very beginning is blind homerism. Why do you think the Bucks owner changed his mind at pretty much the last second, in selling his team to Jordan? People who walk in those circles know all about that situation, and that is why MJ has ruined his chances of ever owning a NBA team.

His best chance was to go into business with Bobcats owner Bob Johnson, but after leading Johnson on for months without making a real commitment Bob took the offer off the table. He's alienated alot of people in those circles, and unfortunately for him, they aren't enamored with his public persona to let him get away with whatever he wants.

As an African American, I think it would've been great to see two black men owning two different NBA franchises, or the both of them running one together. MJ just went about it the wrong way and it's a damn shame.

Nice post.

[bulldog]

In retrospect, I think Jordan's greatest help to the Wizards was to re-energize Abe Pollin out of sheer frustration and anger to action to hire a real GM in Ernie Grunfeld and bring in a coach who knows how to relate to his players :)

Michael Jordan didn't come to Washington to create a winning team for the fans alone, he came to Washington to set the stage for his own return to the court and what he hoped would be his own personal return to glory.

If he had filled the role of a real GM he would have resided here rather than shuttle back and forth from Chicago. He also would have decided that rather than finishing with a .500 type record with #23 on the court the franchise would have been better to manage the high draft choices and acquire the mix of picks and free agents that Grunfeld has to put a winning team on the court down the road.

Don't get me wrong. I anticipated when Jordan came to DC that he was going to forgo stepping back onto the court and he was instead going to try and show he could indeed build an ORGANIZATION and win an NBA title from the executive office.

But as it turned out he didn't have that in mind.

That last year he was here the club limped along with a 40 year old Charles Oakley riding the bench as Jordan's buddy with Jerry Stackhouse riding shotgun as the #2 option.

Jordan brought the Wizards Hughes, Thomas and Haywood.

But he also brought Stackhouse, Oakley, Laettner, Bryon Russell, etc. and the curious draft pick of Kwame Brown.

Curious because he selected a 19 year old that would need some years of development and yet Michael's mantra was to make the playoffs right away with Brown supposedly on the court making a contribution (???).

When Jerry West made the trade to acquire Kobe Bryant after the draft he made the comment that he and Shaq would form the foundation for the Lakers' in the future.

There was no talk of immediate success or of short term solutions, just hard work and a determination to move forward.

That's what the Wizards have now and it is home grown :)

Grunfeld went out and acquired Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison and brought in a veteran like Anthony Peeler to provide veteran leadership, which he did tonight in putting up 16 points on the Pacers to help fill the void created by Larry Hughes' injury.

The Wizards will go a lot further with Grunfeld and the OTHER Jordan than they would have with MJ.

Neither MJ nor Doug Collins was getting the job done here with the younger players on the roster.

That's why MJ ended up trading Hamilton and Ben Wallace out of frustration and impatience to the Pistons for 30 year old Jerry Stackhouse.

As it turned out Stackhouse was no more amenable to giving up all his shots to Jordan than Rip Hamilton had been the year before :laugh:

Notice which player(s) recently helped their team to a title :D

[hands11]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Furthermore, it was well known that MJ and Susan O' Malley didn't get along. Yet Pollin's decision came not from consulting O'Malley, but from bringing in the team and staff one at a time and asking their opinions on MJ the executive. None of them endorsed him, none of them felt he did anything that would not have been done without him (except for selling out arenas of course). This is what got MJ fired, his inability to work with others and lack of dedication to the job.

Also, giving credit to MJ for moves that Unseld, who was still acting as general manager, made is hilarious. Citing Unseld's shortcomings in the past doesn't change the fact that MJ was on a golf course relaxing while Unseld was working. It doesn't change the fact that MJ did little more than say yes or no to decisions brought forth by Unseld's negotiations. That is like Art Modell getting credit for bringing his franchise a superbowl, when Ozzie Newsome and Brian Billick did all the work. That is like a movie star taking credit for doing all of his own stunts when he really had a stuntman.

We are getting close to agreeing here. I think were we differ is, you seem to think that just because people didnt want him back that this means he didnt do a good job or have a major impact. These things have no coorilation. There are always power plays in a capitalist system. I think I posted that Jordan played it wrong and lost. He cracked some eggs and politically, he played is poorly. Yeah, he is a ego maniac. I never said he wasnt and none of this part of your agruement disproves my original point.

I think the bigger difference we have is, you seem to give a lot less credit then I do to who has the final word. As President of a team, specially a team that is cap tied, you bring in a staff/team to work for you. They do the work. You listen and you make the final yes and no decissions. Thats your job. I think Unseld as top dog sucked. History and facts prove that. Unseld with someone else running the show seemed to do much better. This isnt unusual. Some people are role players, not leaders. They work better in a team setting, not as the leader. It like the 2nd string QB who looks great off the bench, but you put him in as a starter, and he sucks.

I go back the mile back view. Unseld was in charge for year. He made terrible decissions and we sucked. MJ showed up, we changed the whole roster short of J White in like one year. Unseld helped, the other staff helped. The cap expert helped.

None of this happened before MJ came here. It happened after. He was the top dog when it happened. These are the core players on the team now. Top dog get credit if the franchise clears the cap and adds the players who are winning for you now.
NOT ALL THE CREDIT. I wish youll would read that I keep saying this. I dont think MJ did all the work or that he did it by himself.

I was only saying. He did good thing. Good things happened under his administration. Good things that have a lot to do with why we are good now. I was only saying, he deserves some credit and thanks.

But there are a few of you that are so pissed at him, you dont want to admit this. You think EG did it. He wasnt here. You think EJ did it, he wasnt here.

[bulldog]

Jordan created as many problems as he solved.

He may have unloaded Juwan Howard but he also brought in malcontents Stackhouse and Laettner, who did little here and ate up valuable cap space.

Grunfeld has forgotten more about being a GM than MJ will ever know.

If you will notice Grunfeld in his first two big moves for the team brought in Arenas and Jamison, giving the team it's first true inside-outside combination in 20 years.

Where was the front court scorer on the Wizards when Jordan was here?

Where was the athleticism from the PG position?

Grunfeld would NEVER have traded Hamilton and Ben Wallace to the Pistons for Stackhouse.

Stackhouse at 29 was fading. Joe Dumars knew that and also knew that despite his good guy run his last year in Detroit that over his career he had been a thorn in the side of his coaches and teammates on more than the odd occasion.

Dumars is one of the best GMs in the business.

If Jordan wanted a role model for going from the court to the executive box, Dumars is a classic example.

But, again, Jordan showed by his actions that he wasn't thinking of the team first as the GM but of himself only, the team only secondarily.

Jordan didn't help any of the younger players develop and in fact traded two guys that could have been keys here in DC for years.

[hands11]

Originally posted by ramseyskins


I have a problem this part. Craphouse forever is and was a black hole. My Detroit fan friends were jumping for joy when the deal went down. My Sixer fan friends told me I was getting a MUCH worse version of Iverson - and at least Iverson lays it out on the line every night.

The guy only puts forth effort when he wants to, doesn't pass the ball, and is a bad locker room presence. Actually, I think Jordan's second year would have been not as rocky if we kept Rip. The previous year, with Rip and MJ missing significant amounts of time, and Kwame averaging 4.7 points a game, we still almost made the playoffs. But, I digress.

I thought the team played better with Stackhouse out and Hayes starting in place of him.

He is a skilled player... perhaps.. although he is older. He is still pulling the same BS in Dallas I think - only trying hard when he feels like it. I was pretty down on the wizards before the season until the the guy was traded... and Laettner too to boot!

We wouldn't be successful if he was still here. I contend we would still be losing BADLY. Our "big 3" wouldn't exist... it would all revolve around one guy... and Arenas would end up jacking up more 3s and turning the ball over more.

Arenas and Stackhouse really never had it going with each other... just like MJ and Stackhouse didn't. MJ and Rip though - that was a good combo.

If Ernie didn't pull off this genius move, this team would still suck, and according to you, we would have MJ to thank for that since he is supposed to be directly responsible for the state of our team right now.

And dude... it's pretty lame that you keep up bringing up the age of everyone who is refuting your points. Just because you were around longer to see the team struggle doesn't mean you can make untruths about what Jordan did for the team just a few years ago.


Amazing..

So because you didnt like the Stackhouse trade, my whole point is wrong. Hmmm. I dont think it works like that.

There is no way of knowing if we would have won with Stack here this year or not. It never happened and it never will. we can only speculate. Again, I liked the move EG did to get Jamison. He is a great GM.

I also liked Hamilton and agree he would have run well with Jordan. I was pissed when we made this trade. I believed Rip was out best player and he would be a star. That said, I can see why they did it. They needed a forward. We had guards and Rip was in a contract year. Some though he was to thin to last.

As for the age thing. I tried to be respectful about that. I dont think Im the only one who thinks that knowledge chances as you get older. I didnt know what I know now about business, life, etc , when I was 21 or 31 for that fact. I sure hope people get wiser. If not we are all in trouble. Im know there is a ton I can learn from younger people. I just hope thats a 2 way street.

[hands11]

bulldog

Wow, there was so many mistated facts in that last post. I can't believe you actually posted that to prove me wrong.

Ok, I read your posts. At least you can read mine.
I admit when youll post things that are facts, but you dont seem to want to do that in return. You keep changing the topic to more current events and want to just point out Jordan obvious short comings. Yes he made mistakes. I have stated that.

Under MJ as President, who was add is posted several times.
Actually there a link to the whole team history in this thread. You cant have read them and still posted what you just did.

Ernie could not have signed Gil if there was no cap room. Room created under MJ and Gil also flipped a coin. Abe brought EJ.
Then Abe brought Ernie. This is all after the time period I was addressing.

Ben Wallace left here under Unseld. He had nothing to do with the Stackhouse trade. Here is the Stackhouse trade.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5915-2002Sep11?language=printer

Jerry was in the last year of his contract. We gave up Rip and Simmons. I hated the trade. I like Rip and Simmons. We probably wont have needed to resign Jerry if the whole organization wasnt on a razors edge because MJ just got fired. I remember the radio people talking about what a joke we would be if we now also lost Jerry. Jerry had us by the short curlies.

Hughes, brought here under Jordan was your shooting guard.

Read the roster for yourself. Find the PGs. I think Knight was one. There are rosters here for several years.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersAPGQuery.html?topic=0&stat=15

Whitney. Lue after a great showing with LA in the championships. They were looking for a PG.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=was&seasonYear=2002&season=2

Here it is again. Im sure you wont bother to read before you post though.

Anyway. Here are the player on our roster that got here while MJ was President.

Players added since MJ was President:

Hughes ( Starter - all star in my view )
Haywood ( Starter - 8th in blocks - coming along )
Dixon ( 6th man, spark plug )
Jefferies (starter - coming along )
Kwame ( poor draft that year - still waiting on him )
Etan Thomas ( Valuable player off the bench )


Well fellows. It been fun. Im sure some people will gain some insight if they care to read these posts and read the links. In done. Youll win. I tried to educate, but if you dont want to read, that isnt going to happen. I was hoping I could help you to see what I was saying by posting actual articles, stats, etc but you dont want to pay any attention to facts and history, your more intersted in bashing, and options.

Your right. MJ traded Ben Wallace for Stackhouse.

Ernie brought Gil here.

We didnt almost make the playoffs.
http://www.nba.com/wizards/notes/Final_Stretch-39282-56.html

If you go back and read the first 2 posts, they werent over the top. I was just saying Jordan played an important role, and I wish he know there were some Wiz fans that apprehiated what he did.

Ghost then added an insightful nice second post.

Then Bugs and the haters chimed in and started all the arguing and Jordan hating.

Anyway, there are enough links and facts for those who want to learn. Those that don't, oh well, I tried. I'll leave it to the readers to decide who posted more facts and accurate views.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Originally posted by hands11





I also liked Hamilton and agree he would have run well with Jordan. I was pissed when we made this trade. I believed Rip was out best player and he would be a star. That said, I can see why they did it. They needed a forward. We had guards and Rip was in a contract year.

Actually, Stackhouse is a guard..not a forward.
He played out of position to accomodate Jordan.

[hands11]

Originally posted by BRAVEONAWARPATH


Actually, Stackhouse is a guard..not a forward.
He played out of position to accomodate Jordan.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerry_stackhouse/index.html?nav=page

They are both tweeners. Hamilton was still kind of a new guy on the block. Stack was a 2 time all start and bigger. Rip was in a contract year, so we were going to have to commit to him long term. Stack was in his last year, so it was kind of try before you buy. I guess we didnt have to buy but we did.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/richard_hamilton/index.html?nav=page

Position: G-F
Born: 02/14/78
Height: 6-7 / 2,01
Weight: 193 lbs. / 87,5 kg.
College: Connecticut '00

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerry_stackhouse/index.html?nav=page

Position: G-F
Born: 11/05/74
Height: 6-6 / 1,98
Weight: 218 lbs. / 98,9 kg.
College: North Carolina '97 [/B][/QUOTE]

[hands11]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hands11
[B]

opps

[bulldog]

the overarching point to be made is that MJ didn't solve the puzzle here. he put together pieces that in some cases didn't fit well together and generated buzz by getting the team close to .500, but propped up on the artificial, short-term basis of his own fading talent.

GM's interested in the long-term development and stewardship of their teams don't do the types of things Jordan did.

the Wizards had no coherent plan and were not developing younger leaders. Collins and MJ operated the Wizards as their own private preserve where the personal interests of MJ were paramount.

now, who is going to step up and congratulate them for that?

I am willling to step up to the plate and say I don't like carpet-baggers. I don't think teams in this city need guys coming in from other places and treated this as a stopping off point to use the city to exploit their own agendas.

The Caps made the same mistake with Jaromir Jagr.

Neither Jordan nor Jagr did a damn thing in Washington that will be remembered.

The Caps made the Stanley Cup Finals in 1998 before Jagr arrived and with him did little of note.

The Wizards, while a dormant team for some time, were one of the best teams in the NBA during the 1970-81 period, making the NBA Finals 4 times, including three times in 5 years from 1975-79.

Nobody needs to build a statue to Michael Jordan here in DC.

He is a Chicago Bull. Always will be.

This team always needed to develop its OWN stars. Players that made their mark HERE.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

How can you say that we traded Rip Hamilton for Wackhouse cause we already had Hughes and we didn't need anymore guards? Last time I checked Wackhouse was a shooting GUARD?!?! As far as you bashing Wes, who is defending him? Nobody is saying anything about Wes. This isn't about Wes this is about MJ. Your article on Wes proves NOTHING. It's an opinion that he was the worst GM in the NBA not a FACT. What do I need to post articles about? The drafts? Goto nbadraft.net and look at the draft history. See what we could have gotten if Jordan didn't play and inflate the value of the team. We obviously would have had better draft picks and we could have gotten better players then what we got. Jeffries is a fine role player but thats all he is a ROLE player. We could have had AMARE STOUDEMIRE, one of the best players in the entire league. Hell, as a person who just moved back to the DC area from Southern California let me tell you that we would have been better off with Chris Wilcox, who went 8th overall, then Jeffries. Here I'll make it easy for you.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2002.htm
That's the 2002 draft where we drafted Jared Jeffries with the 11th overall pick. Look at who we could have gotten instead if Jordan hadn't inflated the value of the team. Our other first round draft pick that year came from New Orleans so Jordan playing didn't effect it so the only thing I can really say about picking Dixon is that if we were so overloaded with guards why did we pick him rather then Tayshaun Prince, as SF?

http://www.nbadraft.net/2003.htm
Once again Jordan inflated the value of the team and had us pick lower then we should have been. Hayes is a nice ROLE player but imagine if our record truly matched the talent we had. We could have been picking in the top 5. We could have had Lebron, or Carmello, or Dwayne Wade but noooooooo. Jordan has to play INFLATING the value of our team and costing us a decent draft pick once again.

What other websites do you want me to post? Other peoples opinions? No thank you. I am sticking to facts. Your Wackhouse arguement is ridiculous. You have no other viable arguements. You just ramble on about how we were nothing until Jordan came. Guess what. We were still NOTHING when Jordan was here. All the attention wasn't about the team. It was about Jordan. Jordan, Jordan, Jordan. To top it all of...WE STILL DIDN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

I agree that Jordan made some good moves, namely getting rid of Juwan's ridiculous contract but in the end he left a limited mark that I honestly do not believe has much to do with our success now. That is why I praise Ernie Grunfeld and Eddie Jordan. They are the ones who are here now while we are winning. We didn't win with Jordan here and we are not winning now because of anything Jordan did then. We are winning now because of the people that are here NOW. Like I said before. Jordan is arguably the greatest player ever but get off his nuts. Stop crediting him with whats going on now.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Oh yeah and as far as the title of this thread goes. Who is the fake MJ? For there to be a real MJ there has to be a fake MJ. The only other MJ I can think of also goes by the first name of Michael but he has more to do with kids and booze then Larry Hughes. That's cute huh? I just made it up.

But anyway, yes I am reading your posts but you are so latched onto Jordan's ball sac that you aren't going to listen to any arguement or opinion that goes against him. Give credit where credit is do and give some props to Ernie and even more to Eddie Jordan. They are really why we are winning.

[Chachie]

What's with the MJ thread? He was eating us alive while he was here. He's gone. Abe stood up for himself and for this city when he dismissed Jordan.

Hail to the new Jordan. EDDIE Jordan. And big props to Abe (Montgomery Burns) Pollin for seeing where that whole mess was going and taking action.

Grunfeld is the man.

[Skins11]

Originally posted by bulldog
the overarching point to be made is that MJ didn't solve the puzzle here. he put together pieces that in some cases didn't fit well together and generated buzz by getting the team close to .500, but propped up on the artificial, short-term basis of his own fading talent.

GM's interested in the long-term development and stewardship of their teams don't do the types of things Jordan did.

the Wizards had no coherent plan and were not developing younger leaders. Collins and MJ operated the Wizards as their own private preserve where the personal interests of MJ were paramount.

now, who is going to step up and congratulate them for that?

I am willling to step up to the plate and say I don't like carpet-baggers. I don't think teams in this city need guys coming in from other places and treated this as a stopping off point to use the city to exploit their own agendas.

The Caps made the same mistake with Jaromir Jagr.

Neither Jordan nor Jagr did a damn thing in Washington that will be remembered.

The Caps made the Stanley Cup Finals in 1998 before Jagr arrived and with him did little of note.

The Wizards, while a dormant team for some time, were one of the best teams in the NBA during the 1970-81 period, making the NBA Finals 4 times, including three times in 5 years from 1975-79.

Nobody needs to build a statue to Michael Jordan here in DC.

He is a Chicago Bull. Always will be.

This team always needed to develop its OWN stars. Players that made their mark HERE.

Great post, and I kind of hinted at this in my post but didn't expound on it due to laziness.

Jordan got some pieces (he got Hughes, but he didn't get the next two BIGGEST pieces, namely Gil and Jamison), but he didn't do jack with them. And that is a world of difference.

Dave Campo had the Cowboys repeating 5-11 performance year after year. Parcells comes in, takes the exact same team, and goes 10-6. Who gets the credit?

MJ didn't put forth the proper effort, didn't do enough research in personnel matters. How could he when he was living in Chicago and essentially phoning in to work? He wasn't hanging out at playgrounds to try to find the next sleeper. Kwame is just the epitome of that.

[BayouBrave86]

Jagr did have that 11 point performance against Florida. :)

[hands11]

Originally posted by BRAVEONAWARPATH


I think he might be one of the people who believes
that Michael Jordan is the second coming and can do no
wrong. MJ did not turn this team around or instill a winning
attitude. To be truthful, most of the players hated his guts.
And with good reason.


"I think he might be one of the people who believes
that Michael Jordan is the second coming and can do no
wrong."

Well if that you think then you are wrong and it shows you havent bothered to actually read. That would be a strange conclusion for you to draw when I have written so much to contridic " what you think"

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83
Oh yeah and as far as the title of this thread goes. Who is the fake MJ? For there to be a real MJ there has to be a fake MJ. The only other MJ I can think of also goes by the first name of Michael but he has more to do with kids and booze then Larry Hughes. That's cute huh? I just made it up.

But anyway, yes I am reading your posts but you are so latched onto Jordan's ball sac that you aren't going to listen to any arguement or opinion that goes against him. Give credit where credit is do and give some props to Ernie and even more to Eddie Jordan. They are really why we are winning.

If you are reading what I actually wrote, how can you so miss represent what it says ?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Just give up guy. You and your arguement has been pummeled. Michael Jordan has very little if anything to do with the Wiz showing up and winning now.

On a related note. I am starting to believe that Gilbert Arenas is the best player I have ever seen playing for the Bullets/Wiz. I am only 21 so I missed Earl the Pearl, Wes, Elvin Hayes and Bernard King, among others, so I am not saying all time. But he is so good offensively and he is turning into such a clutch player. It really is so fun to watch them. I swear, in years past you didn't even have to watch the whole games. There would come a point in games where you just knew they would end up losing them. That doesn't seem to apply this year. The years of Clippers of the East seem to be over and there isn't anyone who deserves more then us true Bullets/Wiz fans.

[hands11]

http://www.nba.com/blazers/sights_sounds/John_Nash-80557-41.html

Here is the guy we sent packing. See, Ive seen us with a great GM before.

Prior to the Nets, Nash spent six seasons with the Washington Bullets/Wizards. Nash showed why he is well regarded as a talent evaluator in the league by plucking future NBA All-Stars Juwan Howard, Rasheed Wallace, and Tom Gugliotta from the NBA draft and trading for Chris Webber. Nash got his start as a GM during a nine-year stint with the Philadelphia 76ers highlighted by a World Championship in 1983.

From 1991
http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=WA1&lg=n&yr=1991


2003-04 25-57
2002-03 37-45
2001-02 37-45
2000-01 19-63
1999-00 29-53
1998-99 18-32 Wes
1997-98 42-40 Wes
1996-97 44-38 Wes

1995-96 39-43 NASH
1994-95 21-61 NASH
1993-94 24-58 NASH
1992-93 22-60 NASH
1991-92 25-57 NASH
1990-91 30-52 NASH

1988-89 40 42 Wes
1987-88 38 44 Wes
1986-87 42 40 Wes


to 1996
http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=WA1&lg=n&yr=1995

So they were only 9 game better in 6 year. I guess he sucked as a GM. And wow, we actually got worse before we got better. That really shows he sucks.

I wonder who was in charge before and after he was here.

2003-04 25-57
2002-03 37-45
2001-02 37-45
2000-01 19-63
1999-00 29-53
1998-99 18-32
1997-98 42-40
1996-97 44-38

Looks like whoever replace him was better. They won 5 more games.

1995-96 39-43 NASH
1996-97 44-38

Oh, That GM got ride of Wallace though. That wasnt a good move but we were winning, they have to be good.

1999-00 29-53
1998-99 18-32
1997-98 42-40

I think we got into a some bad stuff here, with big contracts and cappy players. That's ok, it looks like the whole team was rebuild between 2000-2003.

2002-03 37-45
2001-02 37-45
2000-01 19-63

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=was&seasonYear=2001&season=2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=was&seasonYear=2003&season=2

Whoever showed in 2004 gets all the credit in my book. Thats the guy that did everything. Thats when we started to win. Every important player on this team came from that guy.

Oh, crap, we didnt add a new GM in 2004. That the guy from the year before. Im confused now. That doesnt make sense. And it looks like ever time we add a new GM our winning total goes down the first year. All except Wes, it took 2 for him.

It would almost appear, that you can do some good things, but they dont pay off right away and it takes some time to rebuild. That's what it looked like happen under Nash at least.

Doesnt look like it took nearly as long to destroy what he built though. Just a couple year to tear down what took 6 years to build. Sounds like a proverb I heard somewhere once.

So who would do such a thing. Get ride of a proven GM...Nash got his start as a GM during a nine-year stint with the Philadelphia 76ers highlighted by a World Championship in 1983....

Then tear down the foundation that took so long to build and loose players like Wallace, Wallace and Webber ?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Nash is so well regarded. The Blazers are such a good team. The Bullets were also such a good team under his command. I mean hell, they made the playoffs, once.

You babble on incoherently. I don't understand your point. I'm not sure you even have a point. Somehow this went from you validating MJ being responsible for the Wizards winning now to bashing Wes and Abe.

Of course the Wizards didn't win last year, their first year under Grunfeld and EDDIE Jordan. They were trying to dig themselves out of the hole MJ created. They had to get rid of Jerry Wackhouse and try to make up for the high draft picks Jordan's selfish retirement tour cost the team.

Like someone said before. If the Redskins win next year, Spurrier will have had as much to do with it as Jordan has had to do with the Wizards success this year.

Open your mouth, spit out MJ's sac, take a breath, and get a clue.

[Bugs']

Who Cares! :peace1:

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Originally posted by Bugs'
Who Cares! :peace1:

I care. I've been a Wizard fan my whole life. I have suffered with the franchies through the years. I was just as excited as anyone when Jordan came to town. However, in retrospect I believe Jordan did more harm to the team then good. To give him credit for what Eddie Jordan and Ernie Grunfeld have accomplished and are accomplishing is maddening to me.

I'm also so tired of people being latched onto the sacs of great players and thinking they can do no wrong. Nowadays it's like it's too much for someone to apologize or for someone to admit that a person they are a fan of or believe in was at fault. The same thing is going on in politics.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83
Nash is so well regarded. The Blazers are such a good team. The Bullets were also such a good team under his command. I mean hell, they made the playoffs, once.

You babble on incoherently. I don't understand your point. I'm not sure you even have a point. Somehow this went from you validating MJ being responsible for the Wizards winning now to bashing Wes and Abe.

Of course the Wizards didn't win last year, their first year under Grunfeld and EDDIE Jordan. They were trying to dig themselves out of the hole MJ created. They had to get rid of Jerry Wackhouse and try to make up for the high draft picks Jordan's selfish retirement tour cost the team.

Like someone said before. If the Redskins win next year, Spurrier will have had as much to do with it as Jordan has had to do with the Wizards success this year.

Open your mouth, spit out MJ's sac, take a breath, and get a clue.

Bigman with all the insults on a bullen board.
Very mature. Very constructive. We are all learning so much from you insight.

I dont doubt you dont understand my point. You prove that with your replies. MJ, Wes, Nash, Abe. Its all connected but that to complicated a though for you. The fact the you dont think Nash is a good GM proves it. I just reread what I wrote. It's coherent. They fact that your mind can't digest speaks volumes.

I would have to look into the Portland thing. I havent followed what he has done there, but I know what he did here and what he did for the Sixers. If he is given time and the ownership is good, Im confident he will produce a winner there.

Im showing who didnt help and thier record so you can see who did. Process of elimination. Its really simple. Im not sure why you dont see it. Your logic with Ernie needing a year is sound, but you dont want to use the same logic for MJ, which shows you are just bitter.

Who was here? What did they do?
Wes did nothing but bad things when he was in charge coach/GM.

He lost the player Nash brought. B Wallace, R Wallace and Webber. He even let Ben Wallace go.

Then MJ shows up, we added.

Hughes ( Starter - all star in my view )
Haywood ( Starter - 8th in blocks - coming along )
Dixon ( 6th man, spark plug )
Jefferies (starter - coming along )
Kwame ( poor draft that year - still waiting on him )
Etan Thomas ( Valuable player off the bench )

And got ride of Howard, Strickland and Richmond.

The point was, there is a lag between building a team and wins showing up on the score board. Rebuilding a team is more complicated then how many wins show up the year a GM or President are put in charge. There are lots of moves that take place to rebuild a team. Its like rebuilding house. You have to tear it down sometimes. Its going to look worse before it looks better. But if you keep changing contractors in between, you arent going to get anywhere. Under MJ as President, they did the demo work and build the foundation. Ernie/Abe then came in and finished the job. They didnt tear down the foundation again. This is what we had done for 20 years. Ernie was smart enough to see he was dealt a decent hand. He took a few cards from the deck, tossed a 2 back and made the hand better, and these are your Wizards. Who knows what would have happened if MJ went back upstairs, that didnt happen and its doesnt matter.
The point was, read my original post, he played a major roll in us rebuilding.

I was just listening to a guy on the radio post game last night talking about this. He said, the Wiz arent cursed. Much of what was wrong with them was self inflicted. They keep changing leadership to often. They never stuck with anything, except Wes which never worked. The record belongs to Abe and Wes.

If they would have left Nash in place as GM, we would have been good 7-9 years ago. We had R Wallace and Webber. Howard would have been a nice role player or not on the team. You could build a whole team around these 2 guys.

But as usual, you probably didnt read. Nash changed our whole line up while he was here from bad to good. We were on the verge of being very good again. Wes came in and blow it up. Then we sucked. MJ came in and rebuilt it again, then Ernie DIDNT BLOW IT UP, he took what was there and made it better. This is why I have great hope for this team.

WES IS GONE. We will continue on this corse.

[hands11]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83


I care. I've been a Wizard fan my whole life. I have suffered with the franchies through the years. I was just as excited as anyone when Jordan came to town. However, in retrospect I believe Jordan did more harm to the team then good. To give him credit for what Eddie Jordan and Ernie Grunfeld have accomplished and are accomplishing is maddening to me.

I'm also so tired of people being latched onto the sacs of great players and thinking they can do no wrong. Nowadays it's like it's too much for someone to apologize or for someone to admit that a person they are a fan of or believe in was at fault. The same thing is going on in politics.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

And I have been a Bullets/Wiz fan since I was about 10, which would be 29 years. I watched this organization closely, move by move, GM after GM. I watched the players play, read the sports page ( there was no internet ) and saw the games, watched the bad management, bad trades and listen to the comentation on the radio.

I also give credit to Ernie and EJ. They have done a great job.

As for you being tired of people ( latched on the sacs of great players ), this is an arguement you are having with yourself.
That is not what Ive posted. Its all in black and white in this thread. All you have to do is read. I have pointed out what I believe MJ did wrong as well as what he did right.

What Im tired of are people who want to over simplify things and ignore the facts. And when they don't agree with you, they revert to name calling. I know simple is easier for most peoples minds and that makes them happy, but most things arent so simple. Some times both things can be true.

In my view both these things are true.

MJ played a major role in turning this organization/team around.
He also did some bad things.

Abe made a balls out move to go for the sure thing in EG.
He has a long history of doing bad things. Any move associated to Wes are connected to Abe since he put him in charge for so many years.

Ernie has been a great GM and continued what was started in his own style. Adding pieces and keep the core that was brought here under MJ. I dont think he has made any bad moves. I totally trust this guy in charge. As long as he is here, we should be very competitive.

EJ is becoming a very good head coach in only his 2nd season.
He has also made some mistakes but he is learning.

So any arguement you make about me being one sided is just something you make up in your mind. Its you who want to give all the credit to people ( latched on the sacs ) that weren't even here when the corner was being turned. Your Sperier agruement is bunk. I already responded to that, but of corse, you probably didnt read, so you act like I didnt.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Hands 11..I will give MJ credit for building the nucleus
of the team. But I honestly believe that if MJ had remained
as President...several players would no longer be here.
Kwame and Larry to name a few. I think MJ would have
been too impatient and made knee-jerk decisions.

So I'll agree with you that it was the right move to
hire MJ. But I also think it was the right move to fire
him as well. Agree or disagree?

[Bugs']

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83


I care. I've been a Wizard fan my whole life. I have suffered with the franchies through the years. I was just as excited as anyone when Jordan came to town. However, in retrospect I believe Jordan did more harm to the team then good. To give him credit for what Eddie Jordan and Ernie Grunfeld have accomplished and are accomplishing is maddening to me.

I'm also so tired of people being latched onto the sacs of great players and thinking they can do no wrong. Nowadays it's like it's too much for someone to apologize or for someone to admit that a person they are a fan of or believe in was at fault. The same thing is going on in politics.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

Hey man, listen, I have been a Wizard fan since before you were born and I can't imagine a bigger fan....what I don't care about is this constant back and forth regarding MJ....everyone is entitled to their opinion....so most of us don't agree with hands11, big deal, he loves the Wiz, he has proven that to me with his posts....let him have his opinion and move on....I tried changing his opinion, didn't work, I moved on....:)

[RedskinsNation]

I think MJ deserves some of the credit and I think Ernie Grunfeld deserves the other half of the credit.

The man who made us a laughing stock is now gone, thank god. (Unseld).

MJ has brought in some of the players (youth i guess) but Grunfeld has brought in the heavy hitters (Arenas & Jamison)...Hughes i guess was brought in by MJ.

[Chachie]

I'm not here to argue with anyone. After all, the Wizards are WINNING! :)
But I will say this- Michael Jordan came to this town and made it ALL about HIMSELF. This spoiled things for our players.
When he was GM, it was all about Mike. When he played, it was all about Mike. Then, when he stopped playing, he wanted to waltz right back into Abe's office and tie Abe's hands some more. Pollin realized that Jordan and Leonsis were trying to take over. He quickly squashed it by firing Jordan and putting Leonsis in his place. Until that day, I had lost all respect for Abe Pollin. But in one sweeping move he set this organization back on route to being an NBA squad instead of a bankroll/playground for Michael Jordan.
I don't care which players Jordan brought in or how good they are, the point is that NONE of them were happy to be here and NONE of them were taking us to the post-season as long as Mike was here.

Abe Pollin, Ernie Grunfeld, EDDIE JORDAN. Not much reason to even talk about Michael Jordan.

Delete this thread and let's all just GET ALONG! :)

[RedskinsNation]

Originally posted by Chachie
I'm not here to argue with anyone. After all, the Wizards are WINNING! :)
But I will say this- Michael Jordan came to this town and made it ALL about HIMSELF. This spoiled things for our players.
When he was GM, it was all about Mike. When he played, it was all about Mike. Then, when he stopped playing, he wanted to waltz right back into Abe's office and tie Abe's hands some more. Pollin realized that Jordan and Leonsis were trying to take over. He quickly squashed it by firing Jordan and putting Leonsis in his place. Until that day, I had lost all respect for Abe Pollin. But in one sweeping move he set this organization back on route to being an NBA squad instead of a bankroll/playground for Michael Jordan.
I don't care which players Jordan brought in or how good they are, the point is that NONE of them were happy to be here and NONE of them were taking us to the post-season as long as Mike was here.

Abe Pollin, Ernie Grunfeld, EDDIE JORDAN. Not much reason to even talk about Michael Jordan.

Delete this thread and let's all just GET ALONG! :)

I agree with absolutely everything you said....except the part about deleting the thread.:)

...now we need to figure out what the hell we can do w/Kwame Brown.:rolleyes:

[hands11]

Originally posted by BRAVEONAWARPATH
Hands 11..I will give MJ credit for building the nucleus
of the team. But I honestly believe that if MJ had remained
as President...several players would no longer be here.
Kwame and Larry to name a few. I think MJ would have
been too impatient and made knee-jerk decisions.

So I'll agree with you that it was the right move to
hire MJ. But I also think it was the right move to fire
him as well. Agree or disagree?

Im sure there is to much here for you to read but if you go back and read you will see that I think it was a more sure move to get Ernie then bring back MJ. MJ cracked some heads. Ernie was move proven and came in with a clean slate.

It not uncommon in business to have one type of GM, Pres, Leader come in for the reorg, then another kind lead from there.

Jordan may well have done what you projecting, well never know for sure but yeah, he may have ended up doing what your saying.

[hands11]

Originally posted by RedskinsNation
I think MJ deserves some of the credit and I think Ernie Grunfeld deserves the other half of the credit.

The man who made us a laughing stock is now gone, thank god. (Unseld).

MJ has brought in some of the players (youth i guess) but Grunfeld has brought in the heavy hitters (Arenas & Jamison)...Hughes i guess was brought in by MJ.

Thats all I was saying.

I do have a question though. I thought Gil flipped a coin.
That is what made him deciide to come here.

If that is true, Im dont think I give Ernie credit for that. I just thank God. :cheers:

[Diablo23]

He flipped a coin like 10 times I think and it kept landing on the side he said would be the Clippers yet he still came to Washington.

:notworthy

[bigricky3469]

Originally posted by Diablo23
He flipped a coin like 10 times I think and it kept landing on the side he said would be the Clippers yet he still came to Washington.


:laugh:

[Chachie]

Originally posted by RedskinsNation


I agree with absolutely everything you said....except the part about deleting the thread.:)

...now we need to figure out what the hell we can do w/Kwame Brown.:rolleyes:

I said this in another thread, but here goes:

Package Kwame with Samaki and ship them to the Clippers for Chris Wilcox. I'll take the Terrapin! :laugh:

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Originally posted by Chachie


I said this in another thread, but here goes:

Package Kwame with Samaki and ship them to the Clippers for Chris Wilcox. I'll take the Terrapin! :laugh:

I just moved back to this area from Southern California. I watched the Clippers many a times on tv and while Wilcox is not yet an impact player, I strongly believe he will be one day. I would do your proposed trade in a heartbeat. There hasn't been a stronger supporter of Kwame then me but I think Wilcox is more of sure thing then him.

[RedskinsNation]

Originally posted by hands11


Thats all I was saying.

I do have a question though. I thought Gil flipped a coin.
That is what made him deciide to come here.

If that is true, Im dont think I give Ernie credit for that. I just thank God. :cheers:

Well Ernie did pursuit Arenas and make him an offer.

I think the whole coin-flipping thing was a joke...i mean Arenas isnt exactly as serious as a lawyer by any means.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Originally posted by RedskinsNation


Well Ernie did pursuit Arenas and make him an offer.

I think the whole coin-flipping thing was a joke...i mean Arenas isnt exactly as serious as a lawyer by any means.

Exactly. If it wasn't for Grunfeld trying to get Arenas then there would be no coin flipping incident. Regardless of how Gil ultimately chose to come here, he did come here and Grunfeld is the one who offered him the contract.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Originally posted by Bugs'


Hey man, listen, I have been a Wizard fan since before you were born and I can't imagine a bigger fan....what I don't care about is this constant back and forth regarding MJ....everyone is entitled to their opinion....so most of us don't agree with hands11, big deal, he loves the Wiz, he has proven that to me with his posts....let him have his opinion and move on....I tried changing his opinion, didn't work, I moved on....:)

You have been a Wizard fan since before I was born, right? So you probably remember the Bullets/Wizards winning an NBA Championship, right? Even if it was a long time ago you still got to taste victory. I've never gotten to experience that. All I have gotten to taste is false hope and horrible endings. I don't know of too many people my age, who have been Wizards fans their whole life. After all, this is the age of the fairweather fan. I have stuck by my team none the less. I haven't lived here my whole life. I was stationed at Fort Hood(Texas), and I lived in Vegas and Southern Cali. Everywhere I have gone I have been ridiculed for my support of the Wiz. I didn't care. I defended them and took it for the team.

As far as people being entitled to their opinion, no crap. I know. I wasn't trying to sway anyones opinion. I was just voicing mine and letting people know where I was coming from. Hands11 has a different opinion then me, and most people on here, and that's good for him. Like you said, he loves the Wiz, so he is still a friendly in my mind. It's just an arguement about a GAME. Don't make it out to be more then that. Thanks.