ESPN: Fatso on Samuels Deal

[shippy1973]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2002867

[shippy1973]

A week of tough negotiations, including several tenuous moments Tuesday night when the deal nearly fell apart, has concluded in the Washington Redskins reaching a contract extension agreement with left offensive tackle Chris Samuels.

The five-year veteran, who has been a starter since his rookie season, agreed late Tuesday to a new seven-year contract worth $46.5 million. It includes a $15.75 million signing bonus, the largest in franchise history, and total guarantees of $19 million. Samuels will earn about $23 million in the first three years of the contract.

The deal, negotiated by agent Jimmy Sexton over the past week, continues the upward spiral of contracts for offensive tackles. The signing bonus is the third-largest ever paid an offensive linemen, trailing on the $18 million in upfront money received by Jonathan Ogden of the Baltimore Ravens two years ago and the $16 million signing bonus awarded Seattle's Walter Jones last week.

In terms of per-year average in the first three seasons of the contract, it is believed that Samuels is the second highest-paid lineman in league history.

Even though it seemed certain over the last few days that an agreement would be struck that would grant the Redskins salary cap relief before the beginning of free agency on Wednesday, there were some tense moments Tuesday evening as the two sides haggled over contract language and dollar distribution. By signing Samuels to the extension, the Redskins will recoup $3 million-$5 million in cap room.

Samuels, 27, was entering the final year of the contract he signed with Washington as one of the club's two first-round choices in the 2000 draft. He was due $6.5 million between base salary and bonuses in 2005 and carried a cap charge of $9.5 million. Team officials had been attempting to restructure Samuels' contract for more than a year.

Last week, it appeared that reaching a new deal with Samuels would be necessary, since the Redskins needed cap room in the event they traded wide receiver Laveranues Coles. Even though trade negotiations continued on Tuesday with the New York Jets, the talks did not result in a trade and likely won't now.

Roosevelt Barnes, the agent for Coles, told ESPN.com late Tuesday that it was "highly unlikely" that Washington will trade his client.

Still, by completing the Samuels contract, the Redskins will be well under the league ceiling of $85.5 million with which each NFL team must be in compliance Wednesday morning. And the cap savings will provide the Redskins with some wiggle room in the event they pursue some veteran free agents.

A former University of Alabama star, Samuels was the third prospect chosen overall in the 2000 draft. He has appeared in 76 games, all starts, in five seasons.


Len Pasquarelli is a senior NFL writer for ESPN.com. To check out Len's chat archive, click here

[Cope]

Sportcenter just reported 7 year 48.5 million with 15.75 as a bonus

[shippy1973]

Originally posted by Cope
Sportcenter just reported 7 year 48.5 million with 15.75 as a bonus

:yikes: That is alot of dough But why $2M more than the article?

[carter23]

yeah just saw it.... si he really the 2nd highest paid olinemen in history?? ridiculous

[The X-Factor]

Originally posted by shippy1973


:yikes: That is alot of dough

My thoughts exactly. $18 mil in total bonus, I wonder when the roster bonus is scheduled?

[JeffSchmeff]

Clayton just said on SC that Pierce is going to get monster money. He said that the Skins were trying desperately to sign him, but he should see big dollars either way.

[skinsaddict]

i wish i understood salary caps. :)

[TenaciousB15]

There only one thing I'm seriously confused about. Everyone here seemed to be pissed at Samuels all year long for his play. Specifically for false-starting. Maybe I really confused or something, but why does everyone want this guy back so bad now?

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by shippy1973
In terms of per-year average in the first three seasons of the contract, it is believed that Samuels is the second highest-paid lineman in league history.

I tell you....Samuels better start playing like a TOP 5 tackle next year. Otherwise, he is really going to hamper our team both on the field and with the salary cap.

On another note....I love the hatred for PasquFATelli. It cracks me up how much we hate him! :D

[Zen-like Todd]

Originally posted by carter23
yeah just saw it.... si he really the 2nd highest paid olinemen in history?? ridiculous

Depends how you look at it. Orlando Pace gets franchised every year and makes ridiculous amounts of money because of it, but its happening on a year by year basis.

[Cope]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if he is being paid 23 mil in the first 3 years, with about 16 being SB, that means his cap hit for the next 3 years goes to about at most 4.5 mil cap hit this year. 2.25 per year from the bonus and roughly the same for the salary. Obviously he could take a lower salary number and escalate it, he probably did. But Samuels by my calculations saved us minimum 5 mil and potentially 6 for this and next years cap.

[Zen-like Todd]

Originally posted by TenaciousB15
There only one thing I'm seriously confused about. Everyone here seemed to be pissed at Samuels all year long for his play. Specifically for false-starting. Maybe I really confused or something, but why does everyone want this guy back so bad now?

That was 2003 under Spurrier and Kim Helton (who totally screwed with Samuels' technique, which Buges seems to have fixed).

[BleedinBurgundyandGold]

show pierce the money! please!

[skinsaddict]

I think with Buges help, samuels will become a Ring of Fame member.

[The X-Factor]

Originally posted by TenaciousB15
There only one thing I'm seriously confused about. Everyone here seemed to be pissed at Samuels all year long for his play. Specifically for false-starting. Maybe I really confused or something, but why does everyone want this guy back so bad now?

There really is no other option available to replace him. LT is when of the hardest positions to fill. Our O-line was not that great last year, losing him would make it severly worse.

[Zen-like Todd]

Originally posted by JeffSchmeff
Clayton just said on SC that Pierce is going to get monster money. He said that the Skins were trying desperately to sign him, but he should see big dollars either way.

Ignore Clayton... he made some crack earlier today about Kendrell Bell getting a 13 million dollar SB from an NFC team, intimating it might be us (which is ridiculous).

[Cope]

And doing more thinking...
At the rate of inflation in the nfl, assuming that 25 million remains over the last 4 years of his contract, if the salary is looked at as block, his cap hit will be about 33 mil over 4 years, or roughly 8 mil. A lot for now...unless you begin to factor in the rate LT's salaries have gone up. I don't have the numbers but the Franchise Tag for LT right now is I believe greater then 8 mil. Assuming even a modest 5 percent inflation, 7 years from now we are talking about a relatively affordable top level (even if not elite) LT that will be 34 at the end of the contract. Considering he had us about 20 mil in the whole over the next 2 years, I feel like this was a good deal.

[FBChick]

Originally posted by TenaciousB15
There only one thing I'm seriously confused about. Everyone here seemed to be pissed at Samuels all year long for his play. Specifically for false-starting. Maybe I really confused or something, but why does everyone want this guy back so bad now?

If you asking that question of people here.. many would say they didn't want him back.

But if your asking why the team resigned him is most likely due to not having a lot of options

[bubba9497]

including several tenuous moments Tuesday night when the deal nearly fell apart


lenny lenny lenny.... always got to throw a negative spin, sentence don't you? :doh:

[rdavis2005]

It seems like a fair deal to me as long as he returns to pro bowl form under Bugel. It will average only about 4.5 million per year the first 3 yrs against the cap if fatso's numbers are correct. That's alot better than the 9.6 mil and 11.3 mil he would have counted w/o the new deal for the next two yrs. Should be AT LEAST a 5 mil. savings this yr and 7 mil next. These number may have to be adjusted like Jones' b/c of the collective bargaining agreement expiring which would not allow us to spread the signing bonus over the full seven yrs. which would suck. But I'm sure the FO has taken that into consideration.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by FBChick


If you asking that question of people here.. many would say they didn't want him back.

But if your asking why the team resigned him is most likely due to not having a lot of options


people here don't know squat about OL play then :laugh:


Buges is in Love with the guy. Even with a bd ankle---- 1 SACK......ONE the Skins wanted him long term.

[shippy1973]

How pissed do you think Orlando Pace is right now? I will wait to pass judgement until the full contract is laid out but I gotta believe he will never see about half that money.

[chet06]

I hope Pierce is the real deal and not a one year wonder. I am always leary of giving a guy a huge contract after 1 solid year. I dont know if he deserves a monster contract but he does deserve a substanial increase from his current number.

Smauels at that price is steep. That guy has made a ton of money. Didnt he get like a $10MM signing bonus on his rookie contract?

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by bubba9497
Buges is in Love with the guy. Even with a bd ankle---- 1 SACK......ONE the Skins wanted him long term.

So are you saying that his play was outstanding last year? Sacks given up is a useless stat. How many QB pressures did he have or missed assigments?

Plus, what about his run blocking? I didn't see him for the most part "punishing" people like a Pace or Ogden.

[Art]

Samuels had 3 false start penalties all year. He allowed one sack the team deemed to be on him and just 5.5 according to sites that track that stat. He was injured with an ankle injury that required surgery days after the season injured and really played very well for the team.

He's a young, multiple-time Pro Bowl player with no serious injury history. Why WOULDN'T we want him?

[Park City Skins]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


So are you saying that his play was outstanding last year? Sacks given up is a useless stat. How many QB pressures did he have or missed assigments?

Plus, what about his run blocking? I didn't see him for the most part "punishing" people like a Pace or Ogden.

It's a damn fine stat. Means most of the time the man, ( or men), who he was blocking weren't putting mark and Patrick on their asses. I tend to believe the stats from the team in this case simply because they know what he supposed to do and where to be on any given play. Which brings us to missed assignments. Aside from the above, I'm going to hazard a guess and say the team doesn't think he missed than many considering the contract agreement.

[herrmag]

Originally posted by BleedinBurgundyandGold
show pierce the money! please!

Haven't we learned about overspending on Middle Linebackers? I like Pierce and all, but one good season on a squad with one of the best D-coordinators does not warrant the kind of money I'm afraid he will be expecting. I doubt we'll see him back. Hopefully we will, but doubtful.

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by Art
Samuels had 3 false start penalties all year. He allowed one sack the team deemed to be on him and just 5.5 according to sites that track that stat. He was injured with an ankle injury that required surgery days after the season injured and really played very well for the team.

He's a young, multiple-time Pro Bowl player with no serious injury history. Why WOULDN'T we want him?

Well we can agree to disagree, but I don't think sacks given up is a great barometer on how well a LT plays.

The biggest measure is how a team relies on a LT when they need that extra yard for the first down....a guy who will open up holes for anyone to run through.

For the sake of continuity, I'm fine with signing Samuels. However, I think for the amount of money, he better well play like a top 5 tackle.

He may have made the probowl a couple of times, but I would never put him on the same level of a Pace, Ogden or Walter Jones.......but he sure is getting paid like them.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


So are you saying that his play was outstanding last year? Sacks given up is a useless stat. How many QB pressures did he have or missed assignments?

Plus, what about his run blocking? I didn't see him for the most part "punishing" people like a Pace or Ogden.


in a passing league number sacks giving up is useless :wtf:

The coaches know who messed up, and who didn't... they credit Samuels with giving up only 1 sack.


He had a better year Pace IMO, and a top 3-4 of any LT in the NFL. So he doesn't get many pancake blocks... so what? he gets the man off the ball, and can get down field to block in a hurry. Most of Portis's yards last season was running behind Samuels blocks.

Add in what Art posted... and another fact unlike Pace & Jones isn't a headache every year, comes to camp in shape and ready to play. He has helped the team 3 times with the Salary cap opposed to the multi franchised Jones & Pace.

The only knock on Samuels has been his Helton years. You take away those two years... and he is clearly one of the best 3 LT in the game at only 27.

[pr11fan]

Glad we got him locked up long term, I trust Joe when he says he only gave up one sack, the 5.5 number probably credits him with alot of sacks given up that should've gone to Dockery. If DD can pick his game up and we can get a mauler of a center we should be ready to dominate up front assuming Jansen comes back healthy.

[fdarugar]

What is our cap number now???

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Well we can agree to disagree, but I don't think sacks given up is a great barometer on how well a LT plays.

The biggest measure is how a team relies on a LT when they need that extra yard for the first down....a guy who will open up holes for anyone to run through.

For the sake of continuity, I'm fine with signing Samuels. However, I think for the amount of money, he better well play like a top 5 tackle.

He may have made the probowl a couple of times, but I would never put him on the same level of a Pace, Ogden or Walter Jones.......but he sure is getting paid like them.

Again where did Portis get most of his yards? to the left behind Samuels. The short yardage stops where from the Center allowing penetration most times.

I have to disagree with you Pace is overrated, and Samuels had a better season than him... and comparable to the other two. You can't blame the LT for lack of support at center and Jansen going down.

and Sacks and hurries from the LT is probably the most important stat to evaluate how well they played. LT's covers the QB blind side.. and usually without help from a TE or H-back. Samuel rarely had help this season per Buges.

[Aluadan]

Originally posted by TenaciousB15
There only one thing I'm seriously confused about. Everyone here seemed to be pissed at Samuels all year long for his play. Specifically for false-starting. Maybe I really confused or something, but why does everyone want this guy back so bad now?
Certainly not for that much money, he's far from worth it but it's a typical skins move, what can the fans really do? :(

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by bubba9497

The only knock on Samuels has been his Helton years. You take away those two years... and he is clearly one of the best 3 LT in the game at only 27.

So he's had 2 out of 5 years that he played poorly. That's 40% of his career. In my book, that's no so good. And why blame it strictly on Helton? What....does no other player get a bad coach? Shouldn't any of the blame go to Samuels?

Also as far as headaches, why are Jones and Pace considered ones? Because they want to get paid? Hasn't Samuels gotten paid and getting another fat check? On top of it, he had to drag us along all the way to the last minute.

You can like him, but in my book, I just don't feel he's worth the money. We shall see...

[Art]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Well we can agree to disagree, but I don't think sacks given up is a great barometer on how well a LT plays.

The biggest measure is how a team relies on a LT when they need that extra yard for the first down....a guy who will open up holes for anyone to run through.

For the sake of continuity, I'm fine with signing Samuels. However, I think for the amount of money, he better well play like a top 5 tackle.

He may have made the probowl a couple of times, but I would never put him on the same level of a Pace, Ogden or Walter Jones.......but he sure is getting paid like them.

SF,

One can not agree to disagree with a false position like yours. I can't agree with you that it's acceptable to discount positive stats because they don't happen to fit your belief as to how well Samuels actually played.

In fact, sacks surrendered matter.

But, let's, for a moment, ignore all that.

Let's say they are meaningless and things like hurries and missed assignments and run blocking -- things stats aren't kept on -- do. What we know is Samuels missed few assignments, surrendered few hurries and did fine as a run blocker. We know because the team wants him back and wants to build around his play.

I wouldn't put Samuels on the level of Ogden or Pace a couple of years ago either. But, he played as well as either did last year.

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by Art


SF,

One can not agree to disagree with a false position like yours. I can't agree with you that it's acceptable to discount positive stats because they don't happen to fit your belief as to how well Samuels actually played.

In fact, sacks surrendered matter.

But, let's, for a moment, ignore all that.

Let's say they are meaningless and things like hurries and missed assignments and run blocking -- things stats aren't kept on -- do. What we know is Samuels missed few assignments, surrendered few hurries and did fine as a run blocker. We know because the team wants him back and wants to build around his play.

I wouldn't put Samuels on the level of Ogden or Pace a couple of years ago either. But, he played as well as either did last year.

Yes, we can agree to disagree if we both have different opinions on whether surrendered sacks is very important when judging a LT. Regardless, my point was that it discounts mis-assignments and QB hurries.

In addition, I'm not saying that Samuels didn't play well, but DID NOT play like a top LT. Yes, the team signed him and paid him like one, but does the salary cap, having no reliable options, or keeping continuity have anything to do with it?

I think if he would have been released, I just don't think any team would have paid that much for him.

[Fifty Gut]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


So are you saying that his play was outstanding last year? Sacks given up is a useless stat. How many QB pressures did he have or missed assigments?

Plus, what about his run blocking? I didn't see him for the most part "punishing" people like a Pace or Ogden.

Actually, I remember a number of times Samuels left gaping holes to the left for Portis.

[Fifty Gut]

I'm just happy we have our tackles locked up for years to come. A lot of teams have problems with stability and talent at LT and RT, not us.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


So he's had 2 out of 5 years that he played poorly. That's 40% of his career. In my book, that's no so good. And why blame it strictly on Helton? What....does no other player get a bad coach? Shouldn't any of the blame go to Samuels?

Also as far as headaches, why are Jones and Pace considered ones? Because they want to get paid? Hasn't Samuels gotten paid and getting another fat check? On top of it, he had to drag us along all the way to the last minute.

You can like him, but in my book, I just don't feel he's worth the money. We shall see...

Poorly for him was still better than 3/4 of the league, the first year he was voted Pro Bowl alternate. :D

Believe what you want, but the coaching staff believes different, as do most NFL people.


I am not an expert, but I listen to someone who is.

Joe Bugel talks about Chris Samuels like a teenage boy getting a date with a Super Model. He raves about Samuels talents... He who is considered one of the best ever at coacvhing the OL, who mentored Joe Jacoby, and Jim Lachey at LT in DC, also Luis Sharpe in Arizonia.

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by bubba9497


Poorly for him was still better than 3/4 of the league, the first year he was voted Pro Bowl alternate. :D

Believe what you want, but the coaching staff believes different, as do most NFL people.

Bubba, question?

How many teams would pay him the contract he just got? Just wondering since it seems you have a "in" with most NFL people. :rolleyes:

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Bubba, question?

How many teams would pay him the contract he just got? Just wondering since it seems you have a "in" with most NFL people. :rolleyes:

I don't have an "in" but I have eyes and ears.. and access to scouting services.

if he hit the open market... he would be on of the most coveted FA available this season.

Scouts INC had him #6 after this season and I disagree with having Flozell Adams and Orlando Pace ahead of him... even with the bad ankle this season. Also I think Gross is rated a little high.


Ogden & Roaf are also several years older than him.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/bubba9497/2.jpg

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by bubba9497


Poorly for him was still better than 3/4 of the league, the first year he was voted Pro Bowl alternate. :D

Believe what you want, but the coaching staff believes different, as do most NFL people.


I am not an expert, but I listen to someone who is.

Joe Bugel talks about Chris Samuels like a teenage boy getting a date with a Super Model. He raves about Samuels talents... He who is considered one of the best ever at coacvhing the OL, who mentored Joe Jacoby, and Jim Lachey at LT in DC, also Luis Sharpe in Arizonia.

Oh...so, the probowl is a fair accurate way of judging whether a player is an elite one. Didn't many on this board completely disregard the probowl just a little while agao as a popularity contest?....ala Pierce, Smoot not making it.

So Bugel raves about Samuels. Great, he also raved about Dockery like he was a "god-send". Well, we know how that turned out last year.

[thinker]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Bubba, question?

How many teams would pay him the contract he just got? Just wondering since it seems you have a "in" with most NFL people. :rolleyes:

I think that you're really missing the point with Samuels. Clearly his contract situation with the Skins made it necessary to pay him a big bonus. BUT if he was a flat out ufa, I think there are a number of teams that would have given him almost as much. Whether we like it or not, the LT position is a real premium position. And there aren't too many real good LT's. And in any event, the Skins never accepted an offer that was on the table for over a month from Samuels that likely would have been for several million less. If it's the going rate - it's the going rate. And what would you have done if we cut him? Where were we going to get a bookend LT?

[shippy1973]

Ok that list just lost merit with me.... It has Boonell rated higher than Taylor, Washington and Pierce :doh:

[dfbovey]

The 2 bad seasons he had happened to be when Spurrier and Kim Helton were here. It's amazing to me that some people want to ignore that, especially given the fact that he bounced back the year after they were gone. It's obvious that he was put in a position to fail in that offensive scheme and blocking system.

[skinsfan93]

Bubba, c'mon....I don't know how much creditability I would give that scouting service. I would agree that Gross and Roaf may not be top 5, but where's Walter Jones on that list?

But if you are going to use this to back up your point, then we just paid Samuel's as if he is the 2nd best LT in the league. If Pace gets a deal than he would be top 3.

On your list, he's #6. :D

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Oh...so, the probowl is a fair accurate way of judging whether a player is an elite one. Didn't many on this board completely disregard the probowl just a little while agao as a popularity contest?....ala Pierce, Smoot not making it.

So Bugel raves about Samuels. Great, he also raved about Dockery like he was a "god-send". Well, we know how that turned out last year.

You know you keep shooting down info that I am providing... but you haven't providing anything to support YOUR claims that he isn't that good,

How about backing up your claims with some "facts" or at least some acurate info...something? other than "just your opinion"

:rolleyes:

by the way Buges raves about Dockery's "potential" not how great he is... big difference. And for the record Dockery is very good in run support, but is inconsistant in pass blocking, and gets pushed in short yardage situations... partly because he plays too high, and gets udercut by the DT, and partly because he had no help inside from the center.

[pr11fan]

So he's had 2 out of 5 years that he played poorly. That's 40% of his career. In my book, that's no so good. And why blame it strictly on Helton? What....does no other player get a bad coach? Shouldn't any of the blame go to Samuels?

That would be a valid point if the entire line didn't perform poorly under Helton and not just Samuels, Jansen didn't look as good either.


So Bugel raves about Samuels. Great, he also raved about Dockery like he was a "god-send". Well, we know how that turned out last year.

That's not the same and you know it, Buges raved about DD before he had played a down for him, he was basing that on potential, Buges still raves about Samuels based on "performance", can you not see the difference??

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by skinsfan93
Bubba, c'mon....I don't know how much creditability I would give that scouting service. I would agree that Gross and Roaf may not be top 5, but where's Walter Jones on that list?

But if you are going to use this to back up your point, then we just paid Samuel's as if he is the 2nd best LT in the league. If Pace gets a deal than he would be top 3.

On your list, he's #6. :D

You do realize that a big chunk of the contract was money owed from previous restructuring.


and he is currently #2 but that will change when contracts for some other LT come about.

again... all you are doing is spinning my facts... but you aren't proving anything, nor providing any info to back up your claims.

:jerk:

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by bubba9497


You know you keep shooting down info that I am providing... but you haven't providing anything to support YOUR claims that he isn't that good,

How about backing up your claims with some "facts" or at least some acurate info...something? other than "just your opinion"

:rolleyes:

Well, isn't 90% of this board about posting opinions?

Yes, it's my opinion and no, I don't have "facts" to back it up. I am not a pro scout or have NFL inside information. I'm basing it on what I have seen him do over the last 5 years (regardless of who is coaching him).

Keep in mind that I said, I'm glad we signed him for continuity sakes, but just don't know if he will eventually hurt us down the road.

I guess we will see.

P.S. Whether you may think so or not, I appreciate your feedback. You know your stuff (a little :D) and I would rather argue with someone who knows some things rather than some guy who just blurts out complete nonsense. Thanks.

[shippy1973]

Originally posted by skinsfan93
Oh...so, the probowl is a fair accurate way of judging whether a player is an elite one.

Well...according to the HOF voters, this is a reason that Art Monk is NOT in.... OT yea and NOT fair but this DOES create "elite" players. But this discussion is between you and Bubba... :paranoid: :D

[Mad Mike]

Samuels played very well this year. So did Dockery.

Some of our best runs and the least QB pressure came from the left side of the line. When the QB was hurried, or sacked and when runs got stuffed it was on the right side and middle right.

Let me throw a curve ball in here.

The guy wo concerns me is Randy Thomas. Go back and watch some games, whenever you see a play get blown up, replay it in slow mo and tell me who got pushed around. Hint; I just mentioned his name. he's got good feet, he just seemed a little undersized.

Now a couple of things should be said in his defense. He has played at a very high level in the past. With the Jets, who have a very good Center, he was great. He also didn't have Jansen to his right so he was under a lot of pressure from both sides and one cant expect him to hold up the right side of the line on his own.

Our O line should be MUCH better with Jansen back and an upgrade at Center. Still, I'll be keeping an eye on Thomas.

[Pocono]

From Big Boys numbers my guess is the cap hits will be something like.

05- 6.5M [2.9M old SB 3.15M new SB 500K salary]
06- 9M [2.9M old 3.15 new 500K sal 3M roster bonus]
07- 6.65M [3.15M SB 3.5M sal guaranteed]
08- 7.6M [3.15M SB 4.45M sal]
09- 8.6M [3.15M SB 5.45M sal]
10- 6.5M [6.5M salary]
11- 7.5M [7.5M salary]

[TheBig_E]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


So are you saying that his play was outstanding last year? Sacks given up is a useless stat. How many QB pressures did he have or missed assigments?

Plus, what about his run blocking? I didn't see him for the most part "punishing" people like a Pace or Ogden.

Sacks given up is a VIABLE stat!! Why do a lot of people around here and across the league recognize the efforts of the 1991 Redskins offensive line that gave up only NINE SACKS in 16 regular season games? They don't keep stats on what lineman gave up the most "hurries" or missed assignments. As far as run blocking is concerned, he doesn't have to pancake each and every d-lineman that is in front of him, all he has to do is not let him tackle the RB behind his own line of scrimmage....PERIOD.

[skinsfan93]

Originally posted by TheBig_E


Sacks given up is a VIABLE stat!! Why do a lot of people around here and across the league recognize the efforts of the 1991 Redskins offensive line that gave up only NINE SACKS in 16 regular season games? They don't keep stats on what lineman gave up the most "hurries" or missed assignments. As far as run blocking is concerned, he doesn't have to pancake each and every d-lineman that is in front of him, all he has to do is not let him tackle the RB behind his own line of scrimmage....PERIOD.

Yes, sacks given up by a TEAM are a viable stat. However, IMO sacks given up by individual olineman isn't a true barometer of their play. They are simply recording whether the defensive lineman they are lined up against got a sack. This doesn't take into account whether another guy stunted and Samuels had to pick him up. Also, this doesn't factor in whether a LB blitzed and it was Samuels' responsibility to pick him up, etc, etc.

I'll give you an example....remember the guy we drafted a while ago from Penn State. The left tackle, I think his last name was Johnson.

If I remember correctly, he had given up according to stats, one sack throughout his entire career at Penn State. Well, if I remember correctly, he sure didn't last long.

[China]

Originally posted by Pocono
From Big Boys numbers my guess is the cap hits will be something like.

05- 6.5M [2.9M old SB 3.15M new SB 500K salary]
06- 9M [2.9M old 3.15 new 500K sal 3M roster bonus]
07- 6.65M [3.15M SB 3.5M sal guaranteed]
08- 7.6M [3.15M SB 4.45M sal]
09- 8.6M [3.15M SB 5.45M sal]
10- 6.5M [6.5M salary]
11- 7.5M [7.5M salary]

So my question is this, if 2006 is the year in which we're supposed to be hurting salary cap-wise, why would the FO exacerbate the situation by having a $9M hit that year? Why not defer that roster bonus to 2007?

[Pocono]

Originally posted by China


So my question is this, if 2006 is the year in which we're supposed to be hurting salary cap-wise, why would the FO exacerbate the situation by having a $9M hit that year? Why not defer that roster bonus to 2007?

Because CBA rules say you can't have an increase in salary in any uncapped year that is larger than 30% of his salary[not including SB] in the final capped year which is presently 06. So to justify those increases of 1M in salary from year to year in the uncapped years you need 3.5M of salary in 06.

[Henry]

It looks fairly front-loaded compared to contracts we've offered in the past, and still saves us a little cap space over the next two years. I think he's a little over-paid, but overall that's not bad.

[China]

Originally posted by Pocono


Because CBA rules say you can't have an increase in salary in any uncapped year that is larger than 30% of his salary[not including SB] in the final capped year which is presently 06. So to justify those increases of 1M in salary from year to year in the uncapped years you need 3.5M of salary in 06.

So, is a roster bonus considered salary? Because it is that $3M that puts the cap number up so high.

[Bucaro]

Skinsfan, you are wrong about the fact that sacks against is just against the guy that lines up in front of him. They take into account D-line and LB stunts like twists and Omaha blitzes which swap L-men and backers. It is actually who comes through his gap after the line is penetrated. At least that's how football teams calculate it

[TheBig_E]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Yes, sacks given up by a TEAM are a viable stat. However, IMO sacks given up by individual olineman isn't a true barometer of their play. They are simply recording whether the defensive lineman they are lined up against got a sack. This doesn't take into account whether another guy stunted and Samuels had to pick him up. Also, this doesn't factor in whether a LB blitzed and it was Samuels' responsibility to pick him up, etc, etc.

I'll give you an example....remember the guy we drafted a while ago from Penn State. The left tackle, I think his last name was Johnson.

If I remember correctly, he had given up according to stats, one sack throughout his entire career at Penn State. Well, if I remember correctly, he sure didn't last long.



I'm sure you know that the college game and the pro game are almost as different as night and day. Evidently Andre Johnson didn't have what it takes to be a top flight LT in this league.

Generally, on stunts, the DE loops around the DT and charges up the gut. In cases like that, the OG is supposed to recognize a stunt, release the DT against the OT and pick up the stunting DE coming up the middle. Blitzing LBs are for the MOST PART the responsibility of a RB (if he stays in the backfield to block). Regardless, a sack is charged against a OL when he is beaten by the man whom he is engaged with in a block. Now, according to Joe Bugel, Samuels was beaten for a sack ONLY ONCE this past season (regardless of how many sacks us armchair QBs and GMs want to pin on him). And Bugel's assessment should be the one that we should hang our hats on. After all, he does have a couple of rings to show that he knows what he's talkin about.

[tr1]

If he is overpaid, it's because of Seattle's deal with Walter Jones...the Skins were sitting tight until that big number came up. Pasta belly should be complaining about Seattle...but that would require extra typing...and the only thing he likes to do extra of is eat.

[Pocono]

Originally posted by China


So, is a roster bonus considered salary? Because it is that $3M that puts the cap number up so high.

Because as it stands now it is due to count entirely in 06 it's considered salary. They have about 22M of other roster bonuses due next year for the same reason. They all have language in them that would allow the Skins to guarantee them and prorate them without asking the player should there be a CBA extension before 3/1/06.

[Sebowski]

Originally posted by Pocono


Because as it stands now it is due to count entirely in 06 it's considered salary. They have about 22M of other roster bonuses due next year for the same reason. They all have language in them that would allow the Skins to guarantee them and prorate them without asking the player should there be a CBA extension before 3/1/06.

So when the CBA gets extended, Samuels' hit in '06 will drop?

[Pocono]

Originally posted by Sebowski


So when the CBA gets extended, Samuels' hit in '06 will drop?

Yes....if there is a CBA extension in place by 3/1/06 the team can guarantee and prorate any/all of the roster bonuses in place for 06. I believe the proration can only be spread over the period already in place in the contract which would be 4 years left in 06 but I'm not completely sure on that point. So if Samuels does have a 3M roster bonus and the CBA is extended in time that 3M could be prorated and reduced to 750K against the cap in 06 and his cap hits in 07-08-09 would all increase 750K.

[illone]

Originally posted by bubba9497
by the way Buges raves about Dockery's "potential" not how great he is... big difference. And for the record Dockery is very good in run support, but is inconsistant in pass blocking, and gets pushed in short yardage situations... partly because he plays too high, and gets udercut by the DT, and partly because he had no help inside from the center.

This is a key point that I was about to make. Thanks Bubba:D

Also, don't you guys think EVREYONE will improve with an upgraded center and Jansen back?

I for one am very excited about our offensive line for next season.

With Rabach in the middle, Thomas and Dockery, Jansen and Samuels....

:cheers:

[Pocono]

Originally posted by Pocono
From Big Boys numbers my guess is the cap hits will be something like.

05- 6.5M [2.9M old SB 3.15M new SB 500K salary]
06- 9M [2.9M old 3.15 new 500K sal 3M roster bonus]
07- 6.65M [3.15M SB 3.5M sal guaranteed]
08- 7.6M [3.15M SB 4.45M sal]
09- 8.6M [3.15M SB 5.45M sal]
10- 6.5M [6.5M salary]
11- 7.5M [7.5M salary]

Here are Samuels' salaries from the NFLPA.

http://www.nflpa.org/Media/playerProfile.asp?ID=28754

Samuels, Chris
View Stats at Players Inc Site
Player Info
Draft Info

OL (#60)
Year: 2000

Washington Redskins
Round: 1

Ashburn, VA
Position: 3

Salary History

2000 193000.00
2001 375000.00
2002 375000.00
2003 625000.00
2004 5132000.00
2005 800000.00
2006 1000000.00
2007 2450000.00
2008 4500000.00
2009 5000000.00
2010 6500000.00
2011 7500000.00

I was dead on with my guess for 2010-11 and only 5K off in 08. It's hard to tell without the roster bonus info but I'm probably 1M low or so on my 06 cap hit. OK I'm finished blowing my own horn.

[ummagumma]

Originally posted by skinsfan93


Yes, we can agree to disagree if we both have different opinions on whether surrendered sacks is very important when judging a LT. Regardless, my point was that it discounts mis-assignments and QB hurries.

In addition, I'm not saying that Samuels didn't play well, but DID NOT play like a top LT. Yes, the team signed him and paid him like one, but does the salary cap, having no reliable options, or keeping continuity have anything to do with it?

I think if he would have been released, I just don't think any team would have paid that much for him.

Be careful...the gang is trying to push you into saying some more things they can tear apart. I mean, c'mon, of course surrendered sacks is an important stat. You hurt your cause by suggesting otherwise. You should phrase you point by saying that it's not the ONLY thing someone should look at. It's a hard stat. Certainly more effective arguement than the anecdotal "evidence" of "Portis got most of his yards running behind Samuels."

You're correct that he needs to play better to justify this contract. I mean, how many times do we hear this player or that player we just overpaid for is great and we're crazy not to "want" him. Funny how we have a roster full of those players and it goes 6-10. They're paying Samuels on speculation.

But as others said, they kind of had to. They don't have to resign Smoot or Pierce because they aren't cap killers to not resign/redo. Cap wise, with Samuels, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, so you might as well keep him.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by TenaciousB15
There only one thing I'm seriously confused about. Everyone here seemed to be pissed at Samuels all year long for his play. Specifically for false-starting. Maybe I really confused or something, but why does everyone want this guy back so bad now? No replacement available in the draft or free agency.