Eyeball to eyeball: Coles or Moss

[gridironmike]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/index This exact poll is on ESPN's NFL page. With 49,003 votes cast, Coles leads Moss 50.9% to 49%.

[gridironmike]

Sorry for the misspelled name Santana!

[spjunkies]

I'd take Moss since Coles toe is all ****ed up and he won't get it fixed.

[willy50]

Moss over bad toe and finger !!

[MeNoRevs]

Coles

I am comparing this from a talent on the field perspective.

[Blondie]

For me, it has NOTHING to do with the toe. It has to do with attitude and desire to stick with Gibbs and where he will lead this team.

Blondie

[Skins11]

It depends. If you are talking about who you would take if both were free agents, or if both were currently available in the draft at a certain spot, then you HAVE to take Coles. If you are talking about the current situation, with Coles being disgruntled + his willingness to sacrifice stats + his history + toe problems, I'm not sure.

[bubba9497]

Moss... he is now a Redskin :D

[jrfriedm]

I want the guy who wants to be here.


I just voted and the results are.

Total votes 53,125
Coles 50.9%
Moss 49%

Does this seem fishy to anybody else?

[panel]

Originally posted by jrfriedm
I want the guy who wants to be here.


I just voted and the results are.

Total votes 53,125
Coles 50.9%
Moss 49%

Does this seem fishy to anybody else?

No, coles is better.

The only reason wht Moss is winning here is because he is a redskin.

[Henry]

Coles. He's the better player.

If he doesn't want to be here, I can see letting him go.

But straight up I'd take Coles.

[jrfriedm]

Originally posted by panel


No, coles is better.

The only reason wht Moss is winning here is because he is a redskin.

The reason I said that was because the number of voters is changing but the percents of the players are the EXACT same. :confused:

[TXREDSKINS44]

I would take Moss over Coles, knowing that he has a toe issue and he does have a bad attitude!!

[DC-Fan]

Player for player, I would pick Coles. But, like some of you have said, if he doesnt want to be there, then Moss would have to be the choice.

[dfbovey]

Without the toe injury, Coles.

With the toe injury, it's a push.

[skinzfan4life]

When both are 100% healthy then coles, but in the current state...Moss....he would rather be here.

[Gamebreaker]

Is this poll suppose to be decided by both players abilities, or the homeristic view of a Skins fan?

[SkinsandCanes]

Lets see...In one less year Moss has one less TD. I'll take Moss. That doesn't even count his return TDs. Talk to me after the season. I'll be Santana has better numbers. It's not like Coles was a big receiver, and some here think he was so much better than Moss. We'll see...

[GangstaSkinz]

just voted.

Coles 51%
Moss 48.9%
Votes 59,752

Seems that a lot of people think they are pretty equal in all regards.

[pr11fan]

Moss, anybody who is willing to just up and quit after one year with a hof coach is an arse and doesn't deserve to play for Joe, I'll take a less talented player who wants to be here and won't be a locker room cancer.

[jrfriedm]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Is this poll suppose to be decided by both players abilities, or the homeristic view of a Skins fan?

I think it is to be decieded on praticality. One player doesn't want to be here. The other, while maybe not wanting defenitly doesn't mind. Which do you want.

Maybe if you weren't trying so hard to be an :moon: hole, then you could see things like this :doh:

[RedDawg36]

Moss. I'm a Redskin fan. Enough said.

[Califan007]

Wow...the fact that it's practically a tie after 60,000 votes says a sh*tload in my book...

[Charlie Murphaaay]

Moss has shown he can perform on a big stage...he almost singlehandedly won the playoff game v.s. San Diego with his PR TD and deep TD reception.

Even when Coles' toe was fine, hes field speed wasn't as great as advertised. He has an extremely short stride, and takes about a million of those choppy steps to get where he's going.

I like Moss better despite the toe.

[ross3909]

I took Moss because I am a Skins fan, but also because if you add up the positives and negatives...Moss has an edge over Coles. I do believe that when Coles is healthy he can be a bigger threat but will he ever be truely healthy? And it is hard to build a family atmosphere with players who don't want to be here. We will do better with more guys that have a chip on thier shoulders about not getting any respect and less guys who think they are already the best of the best.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by jrfriedm


I think it is to be decieded on praticality. One player doesn't want to be here. The other, while maybe not wanting defenitly doesn't mind. Which do you want.

Maybe if you weren't trying so hard to be an :moon: hole, then you could see things like this :doh:

Who the **** do you think you're talking to? The only ******* in this thread is the guy who can't seem to spell practicality.

:rolleyes:

To even base this discussion on who wants to be here is pretty pointless when it's possible both players don't want to be here. Furthermore, I was asking the creator of this poll on what criteria should this poll be taken. The fact that you felt you needed to personally attack me for asking a question only shows how sensitive you are. :laugh: Lighten up.

[Hooper]

Coles, bad toe and all. I hope Moss kicks butt for us but the guy is petrified to go over the middle and routinely runs out of bound to avoid contact. Say what you want about LC, but the guy plays with as much heart as any receiver in the league. Anyone remember the second Philly game when he got crushed by two Eagle defenders and still held on for a huge first down? You ain't gonna see Santana do that.

[gbear]

i'm shocked Moss is close on the ESPN poll. I guess others had a much higher view of him than I did. Coles is a beast, toe or no toe. That being siad, he didn't seem to get the separation last year that he did in the first part of his first year here. Maybe his toe will be career limiting. I say "limiting" because e is still a well above average NFL wr.

[red zone]

Coles was a stud. Once he let his true colors show though, there is no turning back. Got Moss?

[Walking Deadman]

Coles (if healthy),
has proven to be a better WR than Moss, but he didn't want to be here, so I'm glad Moss is here.

[grego]

still wondering why everyone is in love with coles......stop drinking the kool-aid. this guy is not that good. servicable- but no superstar by any definition.

[PapaDRoc]

Gotta go with Coles. Moss has been injured too much. About Coles' toe, it might mess him up, but he hasn't missed the majority of the season because of it.

[Thiebear]

One was going to be watching a flat screen while the other was going to run a flat screen.... thats all you need to know.

[fwo40]

Originally posted by PapaDRoc
Gotta go with Coles. Moss has been injured too much. About Coles' toe, it might mess him up, but he hasn't missed the majority of the season because of it.

That's the sad fact, with all we make of Coles' toe...fact is he got himself on the field....I'm not saying it didn't effect him, but he caught 90 passes on it.

Moss is a streaky guy with an injury history...so weighing that against Cole's toe....I'd still say Coles is the better player.

F*ck Coles for screwing our offseason...and happy to have at least something in return for him.....but realistically Coles is the better WR.

[PapaDRoc]

Originally posted by fwo40


That's the sad fact, with all we make of Coles' toe...fact is he got himself on the field....I'm not saying it didn't effect him, but he caught 90 passes on it.

Moss is a streaky guy with an injury history...so weighing that against Cole's toe....I'd still say Coles is the better player.

F*ck Coles for screwing our offseason...and happy to have at least something in return for him.....but realistically Coles is the better WR.

Yea honestly, it seems kinda biased when people are saying that Moss is better. I wanna say Moss is better too. But, the fact is Coles has had a better career than Moss so far. I believe Coles finished in the top 5 in the NFC in receptions last year. All while he was in a sh*tty passing game. Also, last time I checked, Coles was younger.

[bulldog]

eyeball to eyeball?

how about toe to toe? :laugh: :)

Moss is younger, healthier and has the speed and explosiveness that Coles USED to enjoy a couple of years ago.

some point to Moss being small at 5'10 and 185.

well, Coles is 5'11 and 192.

By age 25, Coles AND Moss each had had one big season in the NFL.

We will see in 2005 if Moss can follow up that breakout year in 2003 with another.

But he has done nothing less than what Coles had done at the time the Jets were trying to resign him for 2003 and the Redskins were willing to give up a #1 pick for him :)

Coles' 89 catches for 1,264 and 6 tds.

Moss' 74 catches for 1,105 and 10 tds.

Somebody tell me how people reached the conclusion based on a comparison of these numbers that Coles is a #1 receiver in the NFL and Moss is a bum :laugh: :laugh:

BTW, Moss is in fact TWO YEARS younger than Coles :D

[Hooper]

Moss just doesn't have the heart that LC has.

But hopefully his big-play ability will somewhat compensate for that.

[DUSTINMFOX]

Originally posted by Hooper
Moss just doesn't have the heart the LC has.

Do you have stats for that?

[Hooper]

Any objective fan who has seen them both play knows that. LC is a frickin warrior -- Santana wouldn't go over the middle with an armored suit on.

[DUSTINMFOX]

Originally posted by Hooper
Any objective fan who has seen them both play knows that. LC is a frickin warrior -- Santana wouldn't go over the middle with an armored suit on.

Do you watch a lot of Jets games? Or are you simply going by a bunch of Jet fan's opinions? A bunch of people with your attitude felt silly after seeing the way guys like Springs played last year.

I'm reserving judgement about his "heart" once I see him in B&G.

[Hooper]

I have the NFL Package and watched the Jets a lot this year -- a buddy of mine is a huge fan. I like Moss, but he ain't the player Coles is. He could be a good, if not great number two for us if he can stay healthy but he isn't big enough or tough enough to be a number one. Just my opinion. I would love it if the guy proved me wrong.

[DUSTINMFOX]

Originally posted by Hooper
I have the NFL Package and watched the Jets a lot this year -- a buddy of mine is a huge fan. I like Moss, but he ain't the player Coles is. He could be a good, if not great number two for us if he can stay healthy but he isn't big enough or tough enough to be a number one. Just my opinion. I would love it if the guy proved me wrong.

What exactly is a number one?

[bulldog]

I personally haven't seen enough Jets games from 2003 to see how Moss gained his 74 catches and 10 touchdowns.

Those are not the numbers of a soft player who is not willing to stretch out and nab some catches in traffic.

Unless somebody here is going to maintain that the Jets offense was so good that Moss was always five yards behind the nearest defender? :)

Coles has become tougher because he HAS to. He no longer gets by guys with his feet and cuts but rather has to earn his money by taking the punches on the short and intermediate routes.

Coles now is like a prizefighter that used to depend on his jab and quickness when younger but then begins to survive on his ability to take punches.

Ain't the same fighter.

[DUSTINMFOX]

Originally posted by bulldog
I personally haven't seen enough Jets games from 2003 to see how Moss gained his 74 catches and 10 touchdowns.

Those are not the numbers of a soft player who is not willing to stretch out and nab some catches in traffic.

Unless somebody here is going to maintain that the Jets offense was so good that Moss was always five yards behind the nearest defender? :)

Coles has become tougher because he HAS to. He no longer gets by guys with his feet and cuts but rather has to earn his money by taking the punches on the short and intermediate routes.

Coles now is like a prizefighter that used to depend on his jab and quickness when younger but then begins to survive on his ability to take punches.

Ain't the same fighter.

There have been a lot of good players in the league that have taken the safe, cowardly, or smart way out of bounds (depending on how you look at it).

All I care about is production. If he goes out of bounds on a third down with a yard to go.....I'll be upset.

Franco Harris is in the Hall Of Fame and he went of bounds a lot.

I'm not going to question Coles toughness. But, I think it was more show than anything. The whole jumping up and signaling first down against the Eagles is what most fans refer to. And that was needed why? Simply getting up and going back to the huddle would have done the same.

[DUSTINMFOX]

And just because I guy is always willing to go across the middle doesn't make him a #1.

You don't see Harrison getting rocked all day by safeties.

Moss will most likely not be our possesion wide receiver.

[bulldog]

my point in this thread is at age 25 BOTH players had in fact produced ONE big season.

in regards to the injuries, I would say that recovering from a hamstring problem to me is short-term while recovering from turf toe is a long-term problem.

the guys dogging Moss for being unreliable and a 'softie' ignore the fact that hamstring injuries tend to take the full year to heal and guys end up in and out of the lineup as a result.

but Moss is recovered from that injury. can we say the same about Coles?

the guy is so far in denial he said the toe is no longer a problem since he had his last cortisone shot.

that's a palliative. it's not a cure.

[grego]

Originally posted by bulldog
eyeball to eyeball?

how about toe to toe? :laugh: :)

Moss is younger, healthier and has the speed and explosiveness that Coles USED to enjoy a couple of years ago.

some point to Moss being small at 5'10 and 185.

well, Coles is 5'11 and 192.

By age 25, Coles AND Moss each had had one big season in the NFL.

We will see in 2005 if Moss can follow up that breakout year in 2003 with another.

But he has done nothing less than what Coles had done at the time the Jets were trying to resign him for 2003 and the Redskins were willing to give up a #1 pick for him :)

Coles' 89 catches for 1,264 and 6 tds.

Moss' 74 catches for 1,105 and 10 tds.

Somebody tell me how people reached the conclusion based on a comparison of these numbers that Coles is a #1 receiver in the NFL and Moss is a bum :laugh: :laugh:

BTW, Moss is in fact TWO YEARS younger than Coles :D

hey, man- don't confuse the posters here with the facts :doh:

its good to see at least a couple of people here arent looking at this with 2 year old glasses on. i mean, c'mon- you catch the ball 90 times and you have one TD to show for it? coles best season in the league , he scores all of 7 TD's? why do so many skins fans think we just got rid of randy moss? wake up, people. dude is not a great WR. moss could be what coles was supposed to be but never was.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Charlie Murphaaay
Moss has shown he can perform on a big stage...he almost singlehandedly won the playoff game v.s. San Diego with his PR TD and deep TD reception.

Even when Coles' toe was fine, hes field speed wasn't as great as advertised. He has an extremely short stride, and takes about a million of those choppy steps to get where he's going.

I like Moss better despite the toe.


I think the punt return TD was in the Pittsburgh game, not the SD game. Although he did have a huge game against the Bolts...

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by PapaDRoc
Gotta go with Coles. Moss has been injured too much. About Coles' toe, it might mess him up, but he hasn't missed the majority of the season because of it.



I know this will receive a chorus of boos from the posters here, but as a realistic fan, I've got to point this out. Coles took some BIG hits last year, a couple from Roy Williams. Moss is smaller, so may be able to avoid big hits (a la Warrick Dunn), but how long can he last if he takes a big hit across the middle? You know Williams (not to mention the rest of the NFC East) will be aiming to take his head off twice a year...

I just hope he's tough enough to take it...

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by grego

i mean, c'mon- you catch the ball 90 times and you have one TD to show for it?


Exactly...maybe with a healthy toe he breaks a couple for TD's, or has the speed to catch up to some of the long balls that he missed.

Moss for sure. He'll catch up to those balls, and will have the speed to break some of the screen passes that Coles was not able to break.

[project myu]

Originally posted by DUSTINMFOX

I'm not going to question Coles toughness. But, I think it was more show than anything. The whole jumping up and signaling first down against the Eagles is what most fans refer to. And that was needed why? Simply getting up and going back to the huddle would have done the same.

I'm not a Moss hater, and in fact am hopeful that he will provide the spark in the passing game that the Redskins need, but what's with all the Coles hating?

Sure he has a bum toe. Sure he's not as fast as he originally was. And sure he was a dick and screwed us over. But why all the disrespect for him as a player?

Him getting up and signaling first down was an outward expression of his desire to win and it sure as heck worked in getting the crowd back involved. I suppose no Redskin should ever do a celebration and the crowd should just sit on their hands.

I hope Sean Taylor quits talking trash and quits posing after making plays because after all, it's unnecessary. The linemen and linebackers better quit doing stupid dances after sacking the quarterback, too. And Santana Moss sure as crap better not bring those first down celebrations from New York with him, then. :rolleyes:

And to the guy who keeps trying to back up his notion that Coles and Moss are equals with stats.. Your stats are completely wrong!!!!

Coles and Moss both had one good year each?

Uhh, in both of their first four years, Moss has had one 1000 yard season while Coles had two. In all four season, Moss had 2416 yards while Coles had 3706.

Coles failed to hit 1000 last year by 50 yards, and maybe some of it is his fault for not churning out the extra yards after the catch, but how about the completely bad passes? Remember the Bears game? He got behind EVERY Bear defender by a huge margin and Brunell completely missed him and threw it out of bounds. Had it been almost any other quarterback, that would have been a 70-yard reception for a TD right there.

Moss has more touchdowns than Coles. Gardner also had 7 last year. I guess good old Rod is seven times better than Coles.



With that being said, I want to reiterate that I hope Santana Moss can step up next year and become better than Coles, but as of this past season, I believe Coles is the better receiver.

[grego]

Originally posted by project myu


I'm not a Moss hater, and in fact am hopeful that he will provide the spark in the passing game that the Redskins need, but what's with all the Coles hating?

Sure he has a bum toe. Sure he's not as fast as he originally was. And sure he was a dick and screwed us over. But why all the disrespect for him as a player?

Him getting up and signaling first down was an outward expression of his desire to win and it sure as heck worked in getting the crowd back involved. I suppose no Redskin should ever do a celebration and the crowd should just sit on their hands.

I hope Sean Taylor quits talking trash and quits posing after making plays because after all, it's unnecessary. The linemen and linebackers better quit doing stupid dances after sacking the quarterback, too. And Santana Moss sure as crap better not bring those first down celebrations from New York with him, then. :rolleyes:

And to the guy who keeps trying to back up his notion that Coles and Moss are equals with stats.. Your stats are completely wrong!!!!

Coles and Moss both had one good year each?

Uhh, in both of their first four years, Moss has had one 1000 yard season while Coles had two. In all four season, Moss had 2416 yards while Coles had 3706.

Coles failed to hit 1000 last year by 50 yards, and maybe some of it is his fault for not churning out the extra yards after the catch, but how about the completely bad passes? Remember the Bears game? He got behind EVERY Bear defender by a huge margin and Brunell completely missed him and threw it out of bounds. Had it been almost any other quarterback, that would have been a 70-yard reception for a TD right there.

Moss has more touchdowns than Coles. Gardner also had 7 last year. I guess good old Rod is seven times better than Coles.



With that being said, I want to reiterate that I hope Santana Moss can step up next year and become better than Coles, but as of this past season, I believe Coles is the better receiver.

i dont disagree with the use of stats- it should be noted that coles has started 4 seasons and moss has started only 2, so the yardage comparison over their first 4 years is bound to be in coles favor.

true, the whole O was bad, especially brunells play. that definitely contributed to a less than spectacular year for coles, and there were times he got behind the D and he was missed, but there were far more times when he didnt get separation- heck, he could barely get a step on a 37 year old Deion before the pass got picked off (it was underthrown, but coles showed a lack of speed). like i said, if this guys forte is speed and moves, and you catch a ball 90 times, you're going to get some yards and TD's. coles had neither.

there is no doubt in my mind that coles has not been the same player since game 3 of 2003 when he hurt his toe. look at that year-

--he averaged over 130 yards a game in his first 3 games, breaking 100 yards each game

--since then, he only broke 100 once while having 62 or less yards 8 times.

--he got over 100 yards once in 2004 with one TD while getting the ball in his hands 90 times.

bad offense and all, i think it's no coincidence that his decline in production coincides with his bad toe. my objection to coles is that he put it all on the O, when he was in decline under spurrier- for 13 whole games before Joe came to town.

the one thing coles does have is toughness. if that was the criteria, coles wins. but as far as production on the field, moss' stats (15 TD's over the last 2 years and a sick 18.6 yds a catch last year compared to coles 7 TD's over the last 2 years and 10.6 yds a catch) there is no doubt moss is the winner.

coles was brought here to be a big play guy, but with his toe, he's a very well paid possession receiver. we have possession guys. moss is still capable of making the big play.

[grego]

Originally posted by NavyDave
Moss

Coles production is overrated.

How many TDs has he scored?

He is ok for the yards between the 20's but there are plenty of WRs if used properly like Moss that can match that.

And I'm basing it on his condition now not what he looked like in the fun n gun

in case anybody is actually keeping track, since coles third game when he hurt his toe....

29 games, TWO 100 yard games, 6 TD's

in contrast, moss' last 29 games...SIX 100 yard games and 14 TD's (while catching 39 fewer balls)

i think i know who i would take.

[bulldog]

It will be interesting to see what happens in 2005.

of course the Redskins with a high pick can take a WR at #1 and that changes the talent equation, however, it's possible the Skins will start the season with Moss, Patten, Jacobs and McCants as the primary receivers.

Jacobs and McCants are unknowns. They could be productive players that the team's critics don't take note of and get burned by. That could be an ace up the sleeve of the staff - knowing that either or both players can be factors for us.

On the other hand either player could continue to hang around the periphery.

in that case there will be calls for the team to make a trade for another productive vet to be the slot receiver.

[spm]

Coles is the better all around receiver, but Moss is more of a game changer. Moss can break a team's back. It's great that Coles caught 90 passes for us, but he was basically a possession receiver last year. That's an important role but it is also pretty easy to replace. We can spread his receptions out among other receivers. Moss will make teams respect the deep game, which is a dimension we didn't have last year.

[Mister Happy]

Let's not forget that Coles had 168 passes thrown to him last season. His 90 catches don't look so great considering that.