Gardner/Coles vs. Patten/Moss(Upgrade or Downgrade?)

[Warhead36]

Assuming we trade Gardner and assuming our 2 starting WR's are Patten and Moss, here are the numbers put up by the two parties last year.

Gardner-51 catches, 650 yards, 5 TDs
Coles-90 catches, 950 yards, 1 TD
TOTAL-141 catches, 1600 yards, 6 TDs

Patten-44 catches, 800 yards, 7 TDs
Moss-45 catches, 838 yards, 5 TDs
TOTAL-89 catches, 1638 yards, 12 TDs

Hmm, so it looks like we're downgrading in catches, 52 to be exact, but in exchange we're going UP in yards by 38, and DOUBLING our TD total.

So how, exactly, are we downgrading our WR corps?

[Rikus]

Moss and Patten are both 5'10 field stretchers. I dont think either are suitable to go over the middle, or the best for curls and hitches. I think we have downgraded at both receiver spots. I am looking for the skins to get a possession type receiver for the shorter yardage routes and over the middle stuff. Mike Williams anyone?

[skinzfan4life]

I agree....id rather have two good "#2 WR's" then one good #1 and a mediocre #2....and as far as thier catches vs yards and td's


Quality over qty...ill take TD's over catches easily.

[CrazyZeb]

Upgrade in attitude/personality, I like it.

[Warhead36]

Originally posted by Rikus
Moss and Patten are both 5'10 field stretchers. I dont think either are suitable to go over the middle, or the best for curls and hitches. I think we have downgraded at both receiver spots. I am looking for the skins to get a possession type receiver for the shorter yardage routes and over the middle stuff. Mike Williams anyone?

You don't think Patten can go over the middle?

Plus we have a "possession" WR. His name is Chris Cooley.

If you look at the numbers, we only downgraded in catches. But I mean, any bum can catch 10 screen passes a game. It's YPC and TDs that matter.

[jimster]

We have upgraded with productivity and attitude, which will in turn upgrade our run game.

[scottlo34]

Originally posted by CrazyZeb
Upgrade in attitude/personality, I like it.

Beautiful.:laugh:

[scottlo34]

I would rather have a 3 time world champion over a crying, whining little punk like Coles anyday. I say upgrade.

[Califan007]

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94572

[Rikus]

If Moss and Patten were in our offense last season i dont think they would have those TD's or YPC and would not have performed as well as what we had here. The signings show how Gibbs wants to change the offense to add the vertical threat and chunk plays. Given Coles' toe and how our offense wants to go these 2 are better downfield threats true. However i think we are sacrificing our shorter yardage/middle routes from the receiver position, and are overall worse.

[fdarugar]

addition by subtraction + 2 new speedsters = synergy

[Califan007]

Originally posted by Rikus
If Moss and Patten were in our offense last season i dont think they would have those TD's or YPC and would not have performed as well as what we had here. The signings show how Gibbs wants to change the offense to add the vertical threat and chunk plays. Given Coles' toe and how our offense wants to go these 2 are better downfield threats true. However i think we are sacrificing our shorter yardage/middle routes from the receiver position, and are overall worse.
Moss was beating Coles in both yards per catch and TDs even if you discount Coles stats last season...

[SkinsRback04]

Without a shred of doubt...Patten/Moss is an upgrade.

The reasons are too numerous to list and will become patently obvious during the '05 season.

[Funkyalligator]

Don't forget we have three other receivers that will be in the mix...even if we don't draft Mike Williams I think we will be fine....

[Buford]

push

Patten is better than Rod

Moss is worse than even a pissy Coles

[GURU]

If Moss and Patten do their homework, and read the coverages--based on their homework--properly and run patterns accordingly, then the WR corps has been upgraded.

Also, one of Patten's strengths is finding the soft spots in zone coverages--which entails catching the ball over the middle. Last season, this team really struggled against zone coverages, and I think it had to do with receivers not doing their homework and working on their route-running -- much more than we ever realized.

[Aluadan]

Downgrade, next season is one that I'm not exactly looking forward to.

[Warhead36]

Originally posted by Aluadan
Downgrade, next season is one that I'm not exactly looking forward to.

Care to offer more insight Mr. Doom and Gloom?

[skinzfan4life]

Originally posted by Aluadan
Downgrade, next season is one that I'm not exactly looking forward to.

Like warhead said...id like to know why this is....

at the very least its what bufford said a push....if we arent better off this year we at least arent any worse then last year.

You have moss, patten, thrash, Jacobs...maybe McCants, Maybe M. WIlliams, and Cooley who is a year through the league. I think you are quite capable with that set. you might not have a "#1" but you have a bunch of 2's and that to me is better then have a #1 and then a drop in production.

[panel]

Originally posted by Rikus
If Moss and Patten were in our offense last season i dont think they would have those TD's or YPC and would not have performed as well as what we had here. The signings show how Gibbs wants to change the offense to add the vertical threat and chunk plays. Given Coles' toe and how our offense wants to go these 2 are better downfield threats true. However i think we are sacrificing our shorter yardage/middle routes from the receiver position, and are overall worse.

Exactly, TD #s don't carry over between systems or teams. It is more of a product of role, situation, and system.

Just because Patten and Moss were put in TD situations with other teams, doesn't mean they will get them hear. A better way to get to what I'm saying is that Gardner and Coles arn't at fault for their low TD numbers. Every one knows we didn't get that many tds last season, and when we did they were ussually runs or very short passes, that is what we do in the red zone.

[Mister Happy]

The biggest problem with the offense last year was the deep passing game, without a doubt. In that regard this is a major upgrade.

[GURU]

With some things slowly coming to light, my contention is that Coles and Gardner might be more to blame for the woes of the passing game than we originally thought.

If Patten and Moss do what they're supposed to, I think it's an upgrade.

[Bonef1de]

Originally posted by Mister Happy
The biggest problem with the offense last year was the deep passing game, without a doubt. In that regard this is a major upgrade.

Agreed. In the one game I attended last year (Wk 10 vs. CIN) it appeared that there was no seperation between any of our WR's and the pass coverage. While it also appeared that Cin DB's we're hardly moving from their pre snap positions.

But the bottom line is we have to stop being so freakin predictable in our play calling or you could have 2 HOF WR and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Maybe we should all chip in for a paperback Sun Tzu and Fed Ex it over to the stadium. Deception = 1st down

[Aluadan]

Well let's see, 141 catches vs. 89, simple enough, they do have more TD's but they sure won't in the redskins system. As for having no no.1, that just doesn't work, it could work with a star QB but we certainly don't have that atm.

We're probably going to lose our only big recieving target in Gardner, who's going to take his place, McCants? That isn't going to happen since for whatever reason Gibbs does not like him and doesn't want to play him even though all he does it make plays. You do need 1 big reciever who can be physical, can use his size to his advantage to make catches but considering both Moss and Patten are smaller than coles, we certainly won't have this anymore either.


Originally posted by Mister Happy
The biggest problem with the offense last year was the deep passing game, without a doubt. In that regard this is a major upgrade.
Problem is, you have to call passes downfield and actually take a chance and throw it to have a deep passing game.

[NYSkins1]

Only time will tell...

[Califan007]

Originally posted by Aluadan

Problem is, you have to call passes downfield and actually take a chance and throw it to have a deep passing game.
And the only problem with that, is that you need receivers who can constantly get open and achieve separation downfield...or else a smart QB will hit the hot read and pick up yards instead of throwing up an incompletion, or worse an interception...or just as bad, take the sack while waiting for one of his downfield threats to actually be a threat by becoming an open target.

[Darth Tater]

Going over the middle is not what should concern anyone if we stay small at WR. Being smaller, you could think that they might not be good blockers (they might not seal the edges as well). No proof of that and sometimes smaller guys are more effective blockers anyway.

[Aluadan]

Originally posted by Califan007

And the only problem with that, is that you need receivers who can constantly get open and achieve separation downfield...or else a smart QB will hit the hot read and pick up yards instead of throwing up an incompletion, or worse an interception...or just as bad, take the sack while waiting for one of his downfield threats to actually be a threat by becoming an open target.
There are too many times where a reciever running a deep route is covered pretty well yet you throw the ball up and he makes a play, this happens all the time in the NFL except for the skins since they NEVER take that chance.

Do you think Pinkston and Mitchell were better than Coles and Gardner? They had no problem getting wide open and catching deep balls even when Owens was out of the lineup.

[Califan007]

Originally posted by Aluadan

There are too many times where a reciever running a deep route is covered pretty well yet you throw the ball up and he makes a play, this happens all the time in the NFL except for the skins since they NEVER take that chance.

Do you think Pinkston and Mitchell were better than Coles and Gardner? They had no problem getting wide open and catching deep balls even when Owens was out of the lineup.
You said it yourself..."They had no problem getting wide open and catching deep balls". In other words, McNabb didn't have to "throw up the ball" and hope that either Pinkston or Mitchell could just make the play....

[Aluadan]

Originally posted by Califan007

You said it yourself..."They had no problem getting wide open and catching deep balls". In other words, McNabb didn't have to "throw up the ball" and hope that either Pinkston or Mitchell could just make the play....
So you're saying that Pinkston and Mitchell are better than Coles and Gardner? Don't think so but I do think it's more about the garbage system that Gibbs has come up with so far for a passing attack, if it can even be called that.

[skinzfan4life]

Why throw the deep ball when those same recievers are dropping 10 yard outs and hitchs that hit them in the chest. Its not hey go long and catch it...if you cant catch the 10 yarders how are you going to catch the 2-=30-40+ yarders?

[Aluadan]

Originally posted by skinzfan4life
Why throw the deep ball when those same recievers are dropping 10 yard outs and hitchs that hit them in the chest. Its not hey go long and catch it...if you cant catch the 10 yarders how are you going to catch the 2-=30-40+ yarders?
The same can be said about those 2 eagle recievers yet they still called deep plays and were able to make catches.

This is a system and coach issue more than a reciever problem.

[Califan007]

Originally posted by Aluadan

So you're saying that Pinkston and Mitchell are better than Coles and Gardner? Don't think so but I do think it's more about the garbage system that Gibbs has come up with so far for a passing attack, if it can even be called that.
Didn't say Pinkston and Mitchell were better...only said that YOU said they were constantly getting open...do you REALLY tell yourself that Coles and Gardner were constantly open downfield, but Gibbs instructed his QBs to NOT take advantage of it??...You really believe that?

As for the "garbage system", it apparently never crosses your minds that the players ability (or inability) to execute dictated FAR more of the playcalling than anything else...These guys spent two years of Spurrier indoctrination, Gibbs was trying to get them back to understanding and executing the basics, the things that actually lead to consistent offensive output and winning. When the players started doing the small things right, it showed towards the end of the season with wins and points. Gibbs is thinking farther down the line than just making some immature players happy right now...

[Darth Tater]

Originally posted by GURU
With some things slowly coming to light, my contention is that Coles and Gardner might be more to blame for the woes of the passing game than we originally thought.

If Patten and Moss do what they're supposed to, I think it's an upgrade.

On several occasions (going back to January), Buges said as much but was always berated by those of us here.

[Tom [Giants fan]]

I absolutely 100 percent know the answer to this thread. But I'm not telling for three years. :nana: :D

[hoops381]

Originally posted by Aluadan

The same can be said about those 2 eagle recievers yet they still called deep plays and were able to make catches.

This is a system and coach issue more than a reciever problem.

I agree. Said this all last season, but you know your skating on thin ice by questioning Coach Joe's strategy. lol.

Speed in the NFL is vastly overrated. The way people talk in the NFL and in football circles makes you wonder how speedburners like Art Monk, Steve Largent, Ed McCafferty, and Michael Irvin ever made it in this league.

I hear so many people rave about Taylor Jacobs speed and he ran like a 4.45-4.5 in his forty coming out of college. On the flip side, Dmac is referred to as slow, but he also ran in the 4.45-4.5 range. It looks like taller receivers are slow, because they are tall and lanky, but ask the Db's that cover them if they are slow and I'm sure they would tell you "no."

[LIL LAVAR]

up grade no matter how you put we could have use those tds last season bet we would not have went 6-10

[36SKINS56]

Your leavin out the fact that DMAC is gonna be used way more with these two guys starting. Since they are 5'10,..DMAC is gonna get alot more PT...I say we got better...Gibbs loves the speedy WR's

[Mister Happy]

Coles is not a burner anymore. Not until his toe heals.

If Gibbs sees the deep passing game as a problem now, he saw it during the season, too. If it was only a coaching issue, he would have fixed it.

Coles even said that Gibbs did not trust him. Trust him to do what? The man had 90 catches, and started every game. The answer is that Gibbs did not trust him to get open deep on a regular basis.

When Coles talked to Gibbs about the playcalling, that's what it was about - deep passes. Gibbs didn't not trust Coles and Gardner to get open deep.

That's why as soon as free agency started he went out and got 2 of the top 4 receivers in the NFL in yards per catch.