Negative Redskin Fans v.s. Positive Redskin Fans [Archive]

View Full Version : Negative Redskin Fans v.s. Positive Redskin Fans

footballhenry

March-10th-2005, 08:36 AM

This site has such a wide scope of opinions, outlooks, and views. I find many posts very very interesting, to say the least. It seems that the media is non-stop negative, with the rare positive article here and there. I just wonder what is the reason for negativity? I mean sure if the Skins were in rebuild mode (though to some it may feel like it) like the Dolphins or 49ers then of course negativity is expected. There are so many REDSKINS fans that sound like Cowboy fans to me. Seriously, theyre the ones that profess they love the Skins at the same time they are bashing them. It is very odd to me in some respects. I think of myself as a realist, so I am not going to say I dont criticize or get upset at the moves this org. makes BUT I will always love this team, ESPECIALLY when the man, Joe Gibbs himself is callin the shots. I think thats what irates me more than anything is that Gibbs really and truly has not gotten alot of respect by some reporters, journalists, and even fans. The only time that I have truly and utterly questioned Gibbs is the fiasco with Brunell (find me a skin fan who didnt). The man knows what he is doing, he is trying to build a foundation here in D.C. Something that hasn't happened for us in over a decade. Every season I hope for the best and become very positive as to what we can do. Again, this season I do think we can make the playoffs but I am more positive now than I have been in past seasons because I truly do not think Gibbs will let this team fail again. Negative fans always see the dark side of things (ie Gibbs has lost it, no QB, we suck,etc.). Positive fans look at the good side, and give credit where its due, while I have noticed many, even on here, do NOT give credit where its due. For instance, Patrick Ramsey is always a hot topic on this forum because I beleive most of us genuinely like the guy, but at the same time I have read so many negative posts by people on how he isn't our QB, sucks, dumb,etc. Sheesh, when we had Danny Wuerffel I thought we could win games (lol, okay that might be stretchin it). Anyways, heres to a positive off-season!! :cheers: :point2sky

Goaldeje

March-10th-2005, 08:38 AM

:cheers:

Well said

Thiebear

March-10th-2005, 08:46 AM

Tough Love baby, tough love...
I dont bash, but reserve the right to for any future decisions...
till then my rosie glasses are going back on for today.

Destino

March-10th-2005, 08:53 AM

To some people anything the team does is going to work and everything will be just fine. The team is credible as ever because they know more then we do. Every player that leaves was bad for the team anyway, any player that arrives will be a great player.

To others "everything is going to be fine" has become a sick joke. They wish it were true but they've been let down for 10 years or so and the team leadership is not credible. These people are tired of being positive just for the sake of being positive. They want results not empty promises and excuses.

red zone

March-10th-2005, 09:09 AM

I think the team tends to draw more than it's share of negative criticism because of Dan Snyder. People perceive him as a little, rich, kid with a Napoleon complex. For whatever reason he intimidates people and they get back at him by throwing rocks; a la Sally Jenkins.

As for myself, I am a 'Skins/Dan fan forever. D. Snyd is a Redskin fan first, and will not rest until he gets it done. :2cents:

SkinsNut73

March-10th-2005, 09:12 AM

Losing breeds negativity. We've had a dozen years of it with the Skins. We've done the starting off 7-0 only to crash and burn...we've signed every big name free agent only to watch them flop...so I understand why some choose to be negative.

That being said, we're in the midst of organizational changes which I believe will alter the course of this franchise and turn things around...for good. We have to give Gibbs the time to right the ship.

We were known for not being the most fiscally responsible team - yet we fans cheered each big name signing knowing that we might be squeezed up against the cap at some time. Well, it has cost us a couple of players...but I'm encouraged because we finally have a plan in place that looks further than one or two years down the road.

We had players who were unhappy with their coach (whoever it was at the time) and would run to the owner's office to voice their complaints. At least the media made it seem like they had Snyder's ear and were undermining the coach. Now...if a player isn't happy the coach looks to get rid of him and the owner tells the player he'll buy him a flat screen TV because he will be watching the games at home. There seems to be unity. That encourages me.

Back in Gibbs' first term there were people ready to run him out of town after his first season. Thank God they didn't. He turned the franchise around the next season - back in the day when teams didn't pull off major changes (the going from worst to first Rams, Ravens, Pats of recent history). I have every reason to believe he will do it again. And I'm willing to bet that Walt Harris, Lemar Marshall and Santana Moss will be wearing Super Bowl rings before their counterparts who left for "greener pa$ture$" will.

Craig

March-10th-2005, 09:13 AM

You can still be a fan and be negative. There has been little reason to be positive over the last 12 years or so. LEt's face it, we all love the Skins, but they have been a MESS.

PCRoughrider

March-10th-2005, 09:13 AM

SkinsHokieFan

March-10th-2005, 09:17 AM

The Redskins are one of the few things that has brought joy to my life, especially when I was younger.

I can't help but have positive feelings always about the team

Henry

March-10th-2005, 09:22 AM

I certainly don't think losing Pierce and Smoot is a stroke of brilliance.

However, it's March. There's a LOT of offseason to go before it's time to panic.

denverdan

March-10th-2005, 09:26 AM

its been bad for so long, that some of us forgot how to feel good about this team, every year it gets more difficult to put a spin on it, yet thats what I will do, I will take the positives like the "D" and I will fill the negatives and I will hope

Coach Williams

March-10th-2005, 09:28 AM

Take a poll on the ratio of negitve threads/ comments vs poitive threads/ comments between the nOObs and the people here with 1000+

You'll see a connection......

herrmag

March-10th-2005, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Henry
I certainly don't think losing Pierce and Smoot is a stroke of brilliance.

However, it's March. There's a LOT of offseason to go before it's time to panic.

I agree with you. Some ppl have already jumped ship, and FA just started! Why not have a quiet offseason for once, and be fiscally responsible? Unfortunately, the NFL isn't as lenient as our Federal gov't when it comes to overspending.

bubba9497

March-10th-2005, 09:32 AM

bitchin' & moanin' never solved one problem, ever ;)

trying to stay positive doesn't mean you don't question anything, but you understand that you don't know the entire situation, and know the people in charge has more knowledge and experience (than yourself) to make the correct decisions.

the easier thing is too sit back and criticize everything (especially things you don't understand). It's usually ego driven to make yourself feel important and act like you know more than you really do. So when something goes wrong(they usually do... success is built off failures) you can sit back, throw out your chest and crow, "see I told you so!"

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 09:32 AM

good post...

Just because we, he or I "bash" the Redskins doesnt mean we dont like the team or are fairweather...things arent peachy keen around here 24-7 -- 365... forever. The media's job is....well to bash/criticize/complain...you choose the word and thats what they are hired to do more or less - one must accept that and concede...these reporters/writers are essentially one of us with a VIP pass backstage...thats it.

As Henry says above (and I agree)...its not a stroke of brilliance but we havent had the draft nor a single mini-camp so lets relax for a moment and let the storm pass before we try and assess the overall damage/product that is the Redskins.

3 straight sub-500 teams just leaves us anxious to see improvement and hungry for a winning season...however this offseason leaves us wondering what the direction of the team is and what is the plan to "Improve" on last years 6-10 season.

I Love the Redskins as much as anything in the world...but that doesnt mean I wont get angry/frustrated and/or critical of the goings ons.

Dick Edds

March-10th-2005, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Destino
To some people anything the team does is going to work and everything will be just fine. The team is credible as ever because they know more then we do. Every player that leaves was bad for the team anyway, any player that arrives will be a great player.

To others "everything is going to be fine" has become a sick joke. They wish it were true but they've been let down for 10 years or so and the team leadership is not credible. These people are tired of being positive just for the sake of being positive. They want results not empty promises and excuses.

this is a well constructed post. I am more of a positivist, other than the occassional rant or veting, I find myself feeling alot better about the things that have happened over this FA period bc I know that Gibbs knows what he is doing. In my mind I have fath that everything will work out, maybe not as fast as we all would like, but it will . . . IMO

Until Gibbs proves that his credentails no longer have any merit I will continue to be a believer. As for all the Ramsey bashers . . . I am not on that boat. He has a lot to learn but has shown the character and leadership that is neccessary for any NFL QB to succeed. And he has exemplified nothing but class, except for the trade request last offseason - but that was more of his agent looking out for his own pockets. I have no doubt that our best chances to succeeding in the future are with Patrick Ramsey at the helm. He already has one year under Gibbs', he understands that he now does not have to win games with his arm and he has bought into the Gibbs philospohy.

Plain and simple, this man has won three SB's, gone to 4 SB's, has the highest playoff winning percentage behind the man Lombardi himself and and most recently Bellicheck. Not to mention he entered a new sport (Nascar) and was the first owner to have 2 championships in the shortest amount of time. Gibb's is a winner . . . bottom line.

It's good to see both sides of the story IMO to make as edeucated of an opinion as possible. We need to see all sides of the spectrum to get as close to the relative truth about the situation as possible. Hail to em'

budski

March-10th-2005, 09:33 AM

I really dont care much who goes and who they get. That has become evitable with FA. What matters the most who produces come game time. If they want to stay fine go fine. Alot of the players are looking for a winning team, and as of yet we aint it.
I do think this team will be better this year and may make the playoffs only because most of the people are returning and the coaching staff is good enough to make a bigger impact the second year around. Im not into the cap figures, or tracking players I just wins and lots of them. Skins have been bad for too long, Gibbs and Williams will turn this around, but they have to get their people and get people who will believe.

JRAB

March-10th-2005, 09:37 AM

I may be negative about certain situation... like how we've handled our cap, or the fact that it hurt our chances of keeping Smoot and Pierce. I may be negative about some of the dead money we have on our bench (Brunell).

However, I think we have the best coach in the world, one of the best D coordinators out there, and we do have some talent on the roster.

There's plenty to be happy about, but that doesn't mean I'm going to turn my head the other way when the organization completely botches things.

To me, blind homerism is just as unbecoming as ugly negativity. I think if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 09:38 AM

Destino says it right...

Basically there are the "Homers" and the "Realists"....that is what we are divided into.

Homers always think that the current state of the Redskins is "up and coming" or "we're improving" or "that guys sucks who cares - let him go anyway" or any # of Pro-Redskin statements...also known as...

Bugundy & Gold Glasses (What the Homer wears) = Folks who ALWAYS (year in - year out) predict a winning record.

Im a realist....and im gettin sick of these losing seasons and i think that we arent going to be much better than last year....7-9 Im thinking.

endzone_dave

March-10th-2005, 09:41 AM

When Marty was brought in, I thought "Great, we're bringing in a coach that is a consistent winner." Oops, 0-5 start, finished 8-8 though.

When Spurrier was brought in, I thought "Great, the team won 8 out of it's last 11 games and Spurrier is an offensive genius. We'll make the playoffs for sure." Oops, 7-9.

Spurrier then brought in the fast players he wanted, like Trung. I though "Great, Spurrier has a lot of his team in place now. Just a little improvement and we'll have a playoff team." Oops, 5-11.

Then Gibbs got here. I thought "Gibbs is the coaching god. He brought in the best coaches money can buy and now we have a real running back." Oops, Brunell sucks, 6-10.

It seems like every year I'm saying oops. Hopefully not this year.

bubba9497

March-10th-2005, 09:50 AM

Tae Bo

March-10th-2005, 09:59 AM

wow, talk about self-important. a thread about ourselves...fascinating

Jay Master Jay

March-10th-2005, 10:03 AM

Fans are entitled to their opinion. No matter negative or positive we all like the Redskins. We get mad when players leave but the simple fact we all have to realize is we haven't been good lately. We were 6-10 last year and were whining about losing players. Our president & coach has to jump start this organization with some tough decisions. We love the Redskins but were losers right now. We cant even discuss football with our arch enemy the Cowboys because they own us. We have sucked for the last 10 years. I still wear my colors & love the team but it's time to get the team headed in the right direction. Why cry over players that haven't made a difference? Whether it's Bailey, Smoot, Davis, Pierce, Westbrook, Howard, Shuler, Wilson they didn't get the job done. They came up short in taking us to the promise land we have been to the playoffs once in 10 years. We cant beat Dallas when all us know we were the better team that year. The players, coaches & owner have to be accountantable to us. We do deserve better dont we?? We arent the Bengals or Cardinals but the last 10 years I dont know.

Walking Deadman

March-10th-2005, 10:16 AM

Very Rarely do I get negative on my team (ie. my sig. quote- Bring on the 12th Man is my rally cry to my fellow Redskins brethern).
But I agree with the many fans and journalists (Wilbon and others) that the skins FO is in turmoil and we need a GM.
I think we are still going to suffer our past mistakes (Big contracts over long periods of time, super-big bonuses) for the years to come.

But I like what Wilbon said in the Post article today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21914-2005Mar9.html

Even if Cerrato got promoted and really called the shots (heck, Wilbon says that Vinny made the call to select Arrington over Cortney Brown) it might be an improvement over the "everybody's hand in the cookie jar" approach that we have now.

Let the GM handle the talent/contracts/deals, let Coach Gibbs do what he does best-- turn players into champions and bad offences into schemes before their time. Let Snyder do what he does best: cut checks, make the Redskins $$$$ and look cool in the press box.

As for Free Agency this year so far, my grade: C
--Raubach was a great pickup who will help stop the run blitzes (namely Trotter since that is really what he does best) up the middle and protect Ramsey better.

--Patten should help spread the field for the deep pass and to take Safteys out of the box to help CP.

--The restructuring of so many players shows me that many guys have bought into Gibbs and the chance that the Redskins can win again (this would not have happened in Marty and Spurrier years).

--We lost on the Coles-Moss trade period, but the good news is that Moss is more productive than LC in the Red Zone and Coles won't be a distraction.

--Smoot was the biggest loss and hopefully Harris and the other DB's will be able to replace him (though I doubt anyone can really replace a guy like Smoot).

--Pierce was less of a loss since he only became a starter for 1 year. He really mastered Williams system and his ability to adjust the players on the field based on the O-scheme present really showed what AP could do given the opportunity- The Giants need to know how to use this guy, he could be a very big player in the future (or a bust-- Is AP a "system" LB like Trotter as well?)

The grade may improve based on what we get for Gardner, who else we sign/resign and who we pick in the draft.

tr1

March-10th-2005, 10:19 AM

The Dan Snyder tenure took a big turn beginning last year. He hire a HOF coach. We're only beginning year two. You usually judge coaches after 3 years.

I'd rather see complaining about spending too much money....if we had an owner in Abe Pollin's mold, everyone would be say we're not spending to get good players.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only a few sips taken out of this glass so far.

GSF

March-10th-2005, 10:33 AM

ummagumma

March-10th-2005, 10:42 AM

Concerning what people post here, because I don't care what pundits think and rarely read them anymore...

I think what gets me is that you can't express a negative opinion without it being turned into some sort of anti-Gibbs or anti-Redskin opinion. Why is it so hard for certain people to admit that everyone makes mistakes (including Joe Gibbs and Dan Synder). Some of my criticism turns out to be wrong. Some of my "positive" points turn out to be worng. Yes, I make positive comments. But part of the free flow of ideas mistakes will be made and positive or negative thoughts will emerge. I'm ticked off at the Skins. But if I weren't a fan of the Redskins I wouldn't waste my time on a message board or talking about them at all to anyone. Personally, I don't think much of people who simply say to every criticism one of the following...

1) You're not a fan...go away.
2) In Gibbs I trust (in the context of GM)
3) You can't possibly know what's really going on so you shouldn't express your OPINION.
4) Everything is great because...it must be, the Redskins did it.

And too often it degenerates into that.

Now I'm sure the pollyanna's think similar things. And maybe they're right too. There are a lot of shades of gray.

At some point, with all the resources the Redskins have you have to accept that something is wrong internally becuase they aren't winning. That is a realistic, logical, & informed position. It happens to be negative. But 6-10 is 4 games BELOW .500 and therefore negative.

sashae

March-10th-2005, 10:44 AM

The team has had nothing going for it for THIRTEEN YEARS, other than a one-year blip culminating in a Shawn King fumble-for-a-1st.

We've had vague hopes after winning the offseason year after year after year. I bet good money last year that we were at a minimum going to make the playoffs.

Now we've LOST talent... home-grown talent, too.

Yeah, I'm a bit frustrated. Smoot leaving after he threw himself out there every week hurt or not. Pierce making it from a UDFA to a premier starter at MLB. Coles going from our great Pro Bowl hope at WR to a pariah.

Yeah, it's nice we have a good center in Rabach.

What else have you done for me lately?

The Redskins have earned a jaundiced eye at this point... nothing more. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised this year than bitterly disappointed as we again go 1-5, 0-6 in the East.

-s

Chris Worthy

March-10th-2005, 10:47 AM

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by GSF

Wrong. There are a lot of guys, me included, who were very down on the team in recent years, but are excited now b/c they understand Gibbs' capabilities.

There real shame here is how many fans have turned on Gibbs so quickly. Yes the team has been a mess for a long time, but Gibbs is cleaning up the mess! Give the man a chance. He's just getting started.

How is it wrong?

True Homers always make things out to be positive and will defend nearly every player, acquistion and/or coach or coaching move. Waiting to see how things play out is fine and dandy and being excited because of a player or coach is great but not realizing that things areent improving as a whole or neglecting to atleast acknowledge that the current "Redskin Way" is producing null results and a change in the blueprint is needed is a prime example.

Realists will acknowledge the bad with the good times...these days are filled w/times where we have bad players, make bad decisons on and/or off-field. Realists arent afraid to say a certain player is overrated even if he is a starter/superstar/big contract guy. (i.e. LaVar Arrington).

...Gibbs can be Gibbs all day and I would take him vs. almost anyone...but when you have someone who is above Gibbs that controls the "incredients" and the "budget" then you have to tell it like it is.

A Homer can be just as optimistic as a realist but a homer will say that we are gonna have a winning record based on a player, or a coaching acquistion moreso than a realist would.

Chachie

March-10th-2005, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Destino
To some people anything the team does is going to work and everything will be just fine. The team is credible as ever because they know more then we do. Every player that leaves was bad for the team anyway, any player that arrives will be a great player.

To others "everything is going to be fine" has become a sick joke. They wish it were true but they've been let down for 10 years or so and the team leadership is not credible. These people are tired of being positive just for the sake of being positive. They want results not empty promises and excuses.

I'm with Destino.

I've been a BIG TIME "negative" Redskin fan since the last loss to the Cowboys. I've simply set myself up to be gravely disappointed for too many years in a row. It's my own fault. I placed too much optimism and believed too much hype too many times in a row.

I scoffed every preseason at claims from fans of other teams that Dan Snyder doesn't know what he's doing. After this many miserable seasons, I'm starting to believe it.

This will be my first skeptical preseason as a Redskin fan. (35 years and still going..) I simply cannot apply any more blind faith to a man that refuses to hire a general manager after being so wrong so many times.

If Joe Gibbs wasn't here, I don't know I'd be posting in this forum anymore. He's the ONLY lynchpin of faith that is holding me back from taking a vacation from my dedication to the 'Skins. I owe him the support in this tough time, but if it were any other coach, I'd be a "silent supporter."

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Chachie

I'm with Destino.

I've been a BIG TIME "negative" Redskin fan since the last loss to the Cowboys. I've simply set myself up to be gravely disappointed for too many years in a row. It's my own fault. I placed too much optimism and believed too much hype too many times in a row.

I scoffed every preseason at claims from fans of other teams that Dan Snyder doesn't know what he's doing. After this many miserable seasons, I'm starting to believe it.

This will be my first skeptical preseason as a Redskin fan. (35 years and still going..) I simply cannot apply any more blind faith to a man that refuses to hire a general manager after being so wrong so many times.

If Joe Gibbs wasn't here, I don't know I'd be posting in this forum anymore. He's the ONLY lynchpin of faith that is holding me back from taking a vacation from my dedication to the 'Skins. I owe him the support in this tough time, but if it were any other coach, I'd be a "silent supporter."

I couldnt have said it better...although i would still vent .... I mean post here.:D

Fitz

March-10th-2005, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by bubba9497

wrong, "realist" see both good and bad.

the negatives only see fault, and ready to criticize, even though they have zero knowledge of the entire situation.

Spot on, bubba. There are homers and anti-homers, to coin a phrase, and they're basically opposite sides of the same coin. I tend to try and stay positive because if nothing else, at least I've got hope. That and of course because negative fans die younger :)

Art

March-10th-2005, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Craig
You can still be a fan and be negative. There has been little reason to be positive over the last 12 years or so. LEt's face it, we all love the Skins, but they have been a MESS.

You can be negative and still love the team. What you can't be is fictional and negative and still pretend you love the team. Not that you just were, but there's a distinct line drawn on the negative ledger that is disturbing.

An incredibly high percentage of negative posts contain outright false statements utilized to forumlate the underlying negativity. Thoughtful negative positions are rare here. For example, I'm very negative on the loss of Smoot. I hate that loss and it hurts me deeply we did lose him.

I don't buy the team's argument on him about cap similarity with Springs because Smoot has played under his initial contract and has been drastically underpaid. We owed him a little boost. Pierce is a different story. He owed us.

But, I'm able to express this negative view without creating irrational fiction to support myself. And for the negative side, this becomes a POSITIVE view because I haven't bothered to make something up along the way to be even more negative.

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by bubba9497

wrong, "realist" see both good and bad.

the negatives only see fault, and ready to criticize, even though they have zero knowledge of the entire situation.

the funny thing is 9 out of 10 times those objecting where privy to everything and knew all the teams thought, they would do the same thing or agree with what was done.... the 1 who didn't is just a difficult grouch. :laugh:

oops I meant see the wrong AND the right....just wanted to clarify.

Jay Master Jay

March-10th-2005, 10:58 AM

Have you guys & gals notice no matter who we draft we think that player will be great for us?? We need & should make the playoffs next year. I dont want to be on suicide watch.:laugh: I cant take this losing anymore:laugh: Just a trip to the NFC Championship please please Joe Gibbs that's all I want for X-mas but for the new year a SB win.:laugh:

wskin44

March-10th-2005, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by ummagumma
I don't think much of people who simply say to every criticism one of the following...

1) You're not a fan...go away.
2) In Gibbs I trust (in the context of GM)
3) You can't possibly know what's really going on so you shouldn't express your OPINION.
4) Everything is great because...it must be, the Redskins did it.

And too often it degenerates into that.

There is a lot of truth in that. No matter how much I think of Joe Gibbs it doesn't mean that I agree with him on everything. The Brunell fiasco is a disaster. I also believe the he made a major mistake in letting Pierce get away. Does that mean that I am (god forbid) anti Joe Gibbs? Absolutely not. I just don't agree with anyone 100% of the time. I even tell God himself he's wrong sometimes, so Joe is in good company.

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by wskin44

There is a lot of truth in that. No matter how much I think of Joe Gibbs it doesn't mean that I agree with him on everything. The Brunell fiasco is a disaster. I also believe the he made a major mistake in letting Pierce get away. Does that mean that I am (god forbid) anti Joe Gibbs? Absolutely not. I just don't agree with anyone 100% of the time. I even tell God himself he's wrong sometimes, so Joe is in good company.

Amen my brother.

Art

March-10th-2005, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by RedskinsNation
Destino says it right...

Basically there are the "Homers" and the "Realists"....that is what we are divided into.

Homers always think that the current state of the Redskins is "up and coming" or "we're improving" or "that guys sucks who cares - let him go anyway" or any # of Pro-Redskin statements...also known as...

Bugundy & Gold Glasses (What the Homer wears) = Folks who ALWAYS (year in - year out) predict a winning record.

Im a realist....and im gettin sick of these losing seasons and i think that we arent going to be much better than last year....7-9 Im thinking.

Except this is so wretchedly wrong, it should be retracted. The negative folks aren't realists at all. They are creative writers who can't comprehend how their point of view isn't universally embraced because they don't realize it's based on entirely false information (or at best, half truths).

Homers are a breed who will ignore any negative and never offer a thought that questions a move of the team. There are very few of these people in comparison to the fictional writers on the dark side. It is so clear the dark side can't deal with a thoughtful positive post that anyone daring to be positive on any topic is a "homer" which, for some odd reason, those on the negative side think is a bad word they are using.

I'm by no stretch a homer. I've openly worried about personnel moves, our potential at various spots, how things would work out. Yet, because I don't create greater negative views, I'm actually a homer to those living in Wonderland.

What those down the rabbit hole have long forgotten is it's a good thing to be a homer for one's favorite team. At least a little. And long ago, too many of you have forgotten this.

Henry

March-10th-2005, 11:04 AM

Instead of using labels such as 'homers' and 'realists,' perhaps 'optimists' and 'pessimists' would be more appropriate.

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by Art

Except this is so wretchedly wrong, it should be retracted. The negative folks aren't realists at all. They are creative writers who can't comprehend how their point of view isn't universally embraced because they don't realize it's based on entirely false information (or at best, half truths).

Homers are a breed who will ignore any negative and never offer a thought that questions a move of the team. There are very few of these people in comparison to the fictional writers on the dark side. It is so clear the dark side can't deal with a thoughtful positive post that anyone daring to be positive on any topic is a "homer" which, for some odd reason, those on the negative side think is a bad word they are using.

I'm by no stretch a homer. I've openly worried about personnel moves, our potential at various spots, how things would work out. Yet, because I don't create greater negative views, I'm actually a homer to those living in Wonderland.

What those down the rabbit hole have long forgotten is it's a good thing to be a homer for one's favorite team. At least a little. And long ago, too many of you have forgotten this.

Art, tried to clarify my first post by including AND....in meaning they see both sides of the story...but the first post portrayed it as only negative...my bad.

wskin44

March-10th-2005, 11:05 AM

Art;

Does the birthday cake mean that it is your birthday? If so, happy birthday man.

Art

March-10th-2005, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by RedskinsNation

Art, tried to clarify my first post by including AND....in meaning they see both sides of the story...but the first post portrayed it as only negative...my bad.

Understood. No worries.

Art

March-10th-2005, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by wskin44
Art;

Does the birthday cake mean that it is your birthday? If so, happy birthday man.

Birthday was Sunday. I get the cake for a week.

jimster

March-10th-2005, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by bubba9497
bitchin' & moanin' never solved one problem, ever ;)

trying to stay positive doesn't mean you don't question anything, but you understand that you don't know the entire situation, and know the people in charge has more knowledge and experience (than yourself) to make the correct decisions.

the easier thing is too sit back and criticize everything (especially things you don't understand). It's usually ego driven to make yourself feel important and act like you know more than you really do. So when something goes wrong(they usually do... success is built off failures) you can sit back, throw out your chest and crow, "see I told you so!"

This is the way I see it as well. - It is easier to be negative about things, anybody can do that, it doesn't take any rational thought. - You're not looking at both sides of the story, you're looking at whatever point that can be attacked, and run with it. This is what the majority of the media does these days.

Originally posted by JRAB
I may be negative about certain situation... like how we've handled our cap, or the fact that it hurt our chances of keeping Smoot and Pierce.

this is a perfect example of the negative fiction added to reality.(Not by you JRAB, but the media) - Coles DID NOT have anything to do with Pierce and Smoot. The organization came up with a figure that they were willing to spend on these players and could have and would have been able to do both contracts with or without the Coles situation. - Both players found more elsewhere. So we LET them leave.

If we set a limit then give in, what happens next year? we give more. What happens the year after that? we give even more.

We offered a more than fair contract to both players. Everyone has been so upset in the past when we overpay, now we're not overpaying. - It's most upsetting because we all liked these guys, but that's part of the business these days.

Jay Master Jay

March-10th-2005, 11:11 AM

Football is the one sport where 1 or 2 plays makes a difference in the game. Look at us last year we were not far from being 10-6 or 11-5. Look at these games we could have won Packers, both Cowboy games, Giants, Eagles, Browns, Steelers, Ravens we were very close to being a good team. Were not that far from turning this thing around. In the previous years we could tell in the 1st quarter if we were going to lose a game. Gibbs has made a hugh difference in the team on the field. They play hard every game. It's only going to get better. Our team is a family of players that want to be Redskins. Smoot & Pierce could have stayed they left because they wanted to. We offered fair contracts to them so the hell with them. They simply wanted the money & not the team were building.

Henry

March-10th-2005, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by ummagumma
[B]Concerning what people post here, because I don't care what pundits think and rarely read them anymore...

I think what gets me is that you can't express a negative opinion without it being turned into some sort of anti-Gibbs or anti-Redskin opinion.

Interesting. Yesterday in a thread I noted that while our FA losses hurt, our offense might improve based on better OL play and Ramsey starting from day one, and someone jumped all over that claiming we had no depth. Seems I can't express a positive opinion without it being called a pollyanna ... Go figure.

GSF

March-10th-2005, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by RedskinsNation

How is it wrong?

True Homers always make things out to be positive and will defend nearly every player, acquistion and/or coach or coaching move. Waiting to see how things play out is fine and dandy and being excited because of a player or coach is great but not realizing that things areent improving as a whole or neglecting to atleast acknowledge that the current "Redskin Way" is producing null results and a change in the blueprint is needed is a prime example.

No offense, but wrong again RN. I don't think you'll find a single poster on this board that fits your description of a homer. I can't think of 1 positive poster that thinks signing Brunell was a good idea. The difference is we say, ok Gibbs made a mistake, and move on. Secondly, the current Redskins way is different than it has been for years, and it is too early to say it hasn't netted results. The blueprint just got changed to a more frugal approach. Let's see how it works before we change it again.

Originally posted by RedskinsNation

...Gibbs can be Gibbs all day and I would take him vs. almost anyone...but when you have someone who is above Gibbs that controls the "incredients" and the "budget" then you have to tell it like it is.

Also false. Gibbs is in control of EVERYTHING football. He is making the decisions on who stays and who goes. Blaming Snyder is senseless.

Listen friend, I have no problem with being critical of the team or Gibbs. It's what we do, we're fans. My problem is with the constant moaning of many fans on here who don't take the time to try to understand the moves that get their drawers all bunched up.

Here's an example: We all loved Pierce last year. Noone wanted to see him go. When we didn't match the deal, a whole gang of chicken littles went nuts on here. If you think about the situation, we are already committed to 2 high dollar LBs in Lavar and Washington, who are both better players than Pierce. How could the team possibly afford 3 big contracts for LBs and stay balanced. The answer is simple, it can't, so Pierce was allowed to walk. Sure it's a big loss that stings, but it was the smart move.

wskin44

March-10th-2005, 11:16 AM

The last week has been some of the most difficult days in recent Redskin memory. The franchise has spent a lot of money since Dan Snyder came to town and the results have not been good. One of the criticisms has been that rather than groom our own talent we just go out and overpay on the free agent market. Without getting into that fruitless debate, it was refreshing to see Smoot and Pierce grow from within the organization into being team leaders. Now they are gone and I'm sure that has caused a rise in negativity. If building from the draft is the ticket then losing these guys is very frustrating in the short term no matter how much faith a fan has in Snyder and Gibbs to get this thing together over the long haul. I'm sure that by the time the season starts most fans will have the adreniline running.

Destino

March-10th-2005, 11:16 AM

ummagumma

March-10th-2005, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by RedskinsNation

As Henry says above (and I agree)...its not a stroke of brilliance but we havent had the draft nor a single mini-camp so lets relax for a moment and let the storm pass before we try and assess the overall damage/product that is the Redskins.

I guess I've never heard anyone say that a team had a BAD mini-camp except for injuries. But usually the claim from all teams and coaches is that it was great. How would any reports effect your opinions on the team? So and so ran good patterns? It's practice. The draft could have some effect for the good, no doubt, but I also think people sort of know what we'll get out of the draft in the short term. And since draft picks are complete unknowns by definition (no one actually knows how they'll play) you have to gauge by past drafts and having names next to the draft picks doesn't really change the talent level in my mind. I've already assigned a quanity of improvement or talent that can be realisitically gotten out of this draft. Of course, picks can be traded. Like trading away this years #2 to get a 3rd last season. That obviously helped last season and gives more certainty to this season. I concede that. But the big decisions appear to have been made.

I guess what bugs me about your point is that why not just shut the board down until the season starts? Afterall, we shouldn't make assessments according to you. So what is there to talk about? Oh yeah, our OPINIONS. Some happen to be negative or realistic or homerish or positive or even neutral. I thought that was the point.

Art

March-10th-2005, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by ummagumma
Concerning what people post here, because I don't care what pundits think and rarely read them anymore...

I think what gets me is that you can't express a negative opinion without it being turned into some sort of anti-Gibbs or anti-Redskin opinion. Why is it so hard for certain people to admit that everyone makes mistakes (including Joe Gibbs and Dan Synder). Some of my criticism turns out to be wrong. Some of my "positive" points turn out to be worng. Yes, I make positive comments. But part of the free flow of ideas mistakes will be made and positive or negative thoughts will emerge. I'm ticked off at the Skins. But if I weren't a fan of the Redskins I wouldn't waste my time on a message board or talking about them at all to anyone. Personally, I don't think much of people who simply say to every criticism one of the following...

1) You're not a fan...go away.
2) In Gibbs I trust (in the context of GM)
3) You can't possibly know what's really going on so you shouldn't express your OPINION.
4) Everything is great because...it must be, the Redskins did it.

And too often it degenerates into that.

Now I'm sure the pollyanna's think similar things. And maybe they're right too. There are a lot of shades of gray.

At some point, with all the resources the Redskins have you have to accept that something is wrong internally becuase they aren't winning. That is a realistic, logical, & informed position. It happens to be negative. But 6-10 is 4 games BELOW .500 and therefore negative.

The problem with this post is very simple.

Very often, the negative view contains outrageous comments. Stuff like hiring Bill Belichick for a draft pick in New England was a thoughtful, smart move when it was made, but, hiring Marty for a draft pick was Snyder not knowing what he was doing. Hiring a career winner is bad, when Snyder does it, but hiring a career loser is good when Snyder doesn't.

Snyder hires Joe Gibbs? No credit there. He had to do that.

Joe Gibbs wants Mark Brunell. Damn Snyderatto.

Joe Gibbs won't cut loose his offense. Snyderatto again.

Few DARE to blame GIBBS for his mistakes, preferring to blame them on people who have nothing to do with it. I am among the VERY few people on this board to say, OPENLY, that Joe Gibbs was our biggest failure and mistake last year. Bigger than Brunell.

This is highly negative, but, within that negative view, I have a positive feeling. He's Joe Gibbs. He's getting his coaching legs back. He apparently knew what was wrong -- or he felt was wrong -- and radically transformed that area. He's Joe Gibbs. Spurrier lost my confidence four weeks into his second year, despite my questions surrounding his failings.

Marty lost my confidence five weeks into his first year. Gibbs won't lose my confidence ever.

The point is, somewhere OVER 90 percent of negative comments on the team from people here place blame where it doesn't belong and use outright fiction to create the negative and if not outright false, either incomplete, or simply uninformed. Who can forget Al, for example, citing Snyder interferring with the coaches by allowing Bruce Smith to complain about playing time. Of course, Al didn't finish the story to say that Snyder listened to Smith and said to Smith, he had to work with the coaches for playing time and that wasn't his decision.

Who can forget the famous Yusuf comment that if Cerrato were so good, why did no one hire him in his 10 months out of football. Cerrato, fired in March when teams already were engaged in their offseason, and hired in January when teams were starting next year's planning, should have, apparently, taken over a team in March, on the fly. And, of course, very talented personnel people have held jobs at ESPN in between stints in the league. In fact, ONLY very talented personnel people held those jobs. Except the ONE guy named Vinny.

Stuff like this is what gets people in trouble. It's false, thoughtless and foolish and when a negative point of view requires these traits, you should be thankful people are here to correct them.

Art

March-10th-2005, 11:22 AM

RonJeremy

March-10th-2005, 11:23 AM

I have been a Skins fan who experienced pure joy the first 13 seasons I followed them (1979 - 1992) and I have been in pure hell the last 12 seasons (1993 - present). So, to expect me to always look at the glass half full all the time is...well...flawed IMO.

Because I occasionally disagree with what direction of the team, a player acquisition, or a player lost I am suddenly a "negative" fan? I believe that judgement to be a little harsh on some of us posters here. Being a fan IMO is being passionate about the team. If I didn't care I wouldn't criticize what "I think" is a bad move, etc. I would just march on with my mug of "burgundy and gold kool-aid" and say everything is fine and dandy in Redskins land!! Smiling and saying "Every player is great we signed, every free-agent we lose is a bum, and we are going to the Superbowl each year." How interesting would this site be if we all were like the "positive posters"?

I call it as I see it...and I would love to be wrong sometimes....but I am not changing my OPINION until proven by facts.

Art

March-10th-2005, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Destino

Our offense hasn't taken as big a hit as people think. And yes the accusations are a two way street.

We're of one mind here. The drastic improvement on the offensive line coupled with what is at least moderate and perhaps only slight decline at receiver actually creates an improved offense overall. Couple this with the fact that at this point the offense will have eight starters back who were in the system for a year, and the natural improvement you get from continuity and knowledge should help.

We land a productive rookie receiver, and our offense will be drastically superior from a talent standpoint as well. Of course, we won't know that until about November :).

Henry

March-10th-2005, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by ummagumma
I guess what bugs me about your point is that why not just shut the board down until the season starts? Afterall, we shouldn't make assessments according to you. So what is there to talk about? Oh yeah, our OPINIONS. Some happen to be negative or realistic or homerish or positive or even neutral. I thought that was the point.

That's kinda funny considering you JUST explained how the draft and subsequent offseason won't affect your opinion at all now that we've lost two players.

Maybe we should just proclaim the offseason a failure and shut the board down, eh? :)

ummagumma

March-10th-2005, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Henry

Interesting. Yesterday in a thread I noted that while our FA losses hurt, our offense might improve based on better OL play and Ramsey starting from day one, and someone jumped all over that claiming we had no depth. Seems I can't express a positive opinion without it being called a pollyanna ... Go figure.

And I CLEARLY stated above that "positive" people probably feel the same way and that they could be correct too. But you can't seem to have a discussion about it, you just have to attack.

And BTW, if Jansen goes down again, where is our depth? What has changed? It was a fair point. I also didn't call you a pollyanna for that specific reason. It was a general comment for those who think everything is great and ignore the general / obvious problems the front office is having. Sure, things aren't all bad. But we certainly aren't a more talented team then we were a week ago. Maybe that won't matter. That's why the play the games.

ummagumma

March-10th-2005, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Henry

That's kinda funny considering you JUST explained how the draft and subsequent offseason won't affect your opinion at all now that we've lost two players.

Maybe we should just proclaim the offseason a failure and shut the board down, eh? :)

And did I not say why I thought that? Losing Smoot and Pierce is clearly different then a mini-camp. You're just being contrary. I get it. Ha ha. Sorry for misjudging you. :)

RedskinsNation

March-10th-2005, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by GSF

No offense, but wrong again RN. I don't think you'll find a single poster on this board that fits your description of a homer. I can't think of 1 positive poster that thinks signing Brunell was a good idea. The difference is we say, ok Gibbs made a mistake, and move on. Secondly, the current Redskins way is different than it has been for years, and it is too early to say it hasn't netted results. The blueprint just got changed to a more frugal approach. Let's see how it works before we change it again.

Also false. Gibbs is in control of EVERYTHING football. He is making the decisions on who stays and who goes. Blaming Snyder is senseless.

Listen friend, I have no problem with being critical of the team or Gibbs. It's what we do, we're fans. My problem is with the constant moaning of many fans on here who don't take the time to try to understand the moves that get their drawers all bunched up.

Here's an example: We all loved Pierce last year. Noone wanted to see him go. When we didn't match the deal, a whole gang of chicken littles went nuts on here. If you think about the situation, we are already committed to 2 high dollar LBs in Lavar and Washington, who are both better players than Pierce. How could the team possibly afford 3 big contracts for LBs and stay balanced. The answer is simple, it can't, so Pierce was allowed to walk. Sure it's a big loss that stings, but it was the smart move.

Listen dont take things to the extreme...of course the majority dont like the Brunell move....NOW. But there are the fans that dont like to associate the word Gibbs and Mistake or even Redskins and Mistake in the same situation...those are the fans I am referencing more or less...thats all.

Henry

March-10th-2005, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by ummagumma
[B]

And I CLEARLY stated above that "positive" people probably feel the same way and that they could be correct too. But you can't seem to have a discussion about it, you just have to attack.

No, you didn't say 'positive people.' You said 'pollyannas.'

Sort of changes the tone of your post a bit. I suggest that if you REALLY want an attack-free discussion, keep the condescending labels to yourself.

And BTW, if Jansen goes down again, where is our depth? What has changed? It was a fair point.

Does Jansen coming back make the line better or not? THAT's a fair point. Not EXPECTING Jansen to miss the entire season again. That's fabricating a scenerio in order to complain about something. I mean, I can play that too: What if we re-signed Smoot and he missed the season with injury ... BOY would we feel stupid then. Thank God we got rid of him. Realistic, isn't it.:)

wskin44

March-10th-2005, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Art

The problem with this post is very simple.

Very often, the negative view contains outrageous comments. .

The point is, somewhere OVER 90 percent of negative comments on the team from people here place blame where it doesn't belong and use outright fiction to create the negative and if not outright false, either incomplete, or simply uninformed.
Stuff like this is what gets people in trouble. It's false, thoughtless and foolish and when a negative point of view requires these traits, you should be thankful people are here to correct them.

I understand better now where you are coming from Art. Sometimes folks write misinformed statements on purpose or just blatently refuse to accept facts. More often folks forget that they can't believe much of what is written in the press or just plain forget or didn't know some stray fact. I've often admired your ability to sort fact from fiction, particularly when fiction is leading to false negative conclusions. I don't think though that most fans are purposely misrepresenting facts just so that they can slam the team.

I follow the team as much as anyone here and I know that I have been wrong about facts, or missed a different perspective when drawing conclusions, but I absolutely do not do it because I have an negative agenda. I try to understand the cap because I know if affects most personnel decisions. This attempt at understanding is so that I WON'T fall into the trap of seeing things in a negative light. Not all fans who question things, or are who are wrong about facts are doing it on purpose.

The President

March-10th-2005, 11:53 AM

I hate negative Redskins fans, alomost has much as I hate other fans.

Darth Tater

March-10th-2005, 12:37 PM

The advantage to being a negitve fan is that almost everything surpasses your expections, you will rarely be disappointed. The Redskins have disapointed the positive fans at every turn since '93.

BTW, unless your open with the media and follow simple procedures they can understand, they will always lean to the negative.

Destino

March-10th-2005, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by gibby56
I hate negative Redskins fans, alomost has much as I hate other fans.
Way to be positive gibby. :)

GSF

March-10th-2005, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Art

For the record, a whole lot of us thought the Brunell signing was a good signing at the time it was made. It made a whole lot of sense to all of us. And, had Brunell actually looked ONE BIT like the player he'd long been, it would have been a great signing. What changed is how Brunell played and that caused all of us to recognize how bad a move it was because of the cost and the fact the guy seemed to have nothing left.

I'm with you everywhere else :).

Agreed. I also thought the Brunell signing was a good move at the time. I was trying to say that most of now readily admit that Brunell turned out to be a mistake. Maybe not a real good example.

jpark

March-10th-2005, 12:58 PM

For all those complainers out there just remember one thing-we all got what we wanted:

Joes Gibbs is our Head Coach and he figures to remain with us at least a few more years.

If that aint enough for you we have a tough defense that dominates opponents and this and last year's offseasons seem to prove that we have shed the "If he has a name, get Redskins One and the checkbook ready" approach to free agency.

Did I mention that Joe Gibbs is our coach?

footballhenry

March-10th-2005, 01:23 PM

Hmmm....man, every time a make a thread in the morning I come back in the afternoon and its taken a life of its own....takes a long time to read all this guys!!!! lol, I am definitely a realist, I did NOT think wed make the playoffs last yr and thought wed be around 7-9. This year I do think we should make the playoffs though. Less than a 10-6 record is not acceptable, imho. Alot of you guys are right in that we have lost for too long. I want to win again. Gibbs will bring this. If we can make the playoffs I will be happy, bottomline. If we dont then I wont and changes will need to be made to improve. I am also a homer in the aspect that I will always think positively, in fact this site has helped me to think alot more postively than I have in the past. So yes, you can be a realist homer. Not necessarily one or the other.

fansince62

March-10th-2005, 01:34 PM

right on DESTINO!

Art

March-10th-2005, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by fansince62
right on DESTINO!

With the implied, yet unstated following, "...never let facts interfere with an ignorant position." :)

footballhenry

March-10th-2005, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Art

"...never let facts interfere with an ignorant position." :)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Blondie

March-10th-2005, 02:45 PM

I believe in speaking without whining and bitching and moaning. I believe in stating a fact ONCE and not beating it to death.
I believe in looking at the forest and not each individual tree.

I believe.

Blondie

ntotoro

March-10th-2005, 02:48 PM

Blondie... :cheers: *

*although I admit I do those from time-to-time... :laugh:

fansince62

March-10th-2005, 03:24 PM

art....all rationalizing aside....the team has essentially been on the losing end of the stick for 13 years. that's a record that may satisify standards in your profession....not mine.

will you ever tire of the juevenile caterwauling? let's take the Brunell post - you argued to a pov supposedly based on facts - but you have no idea whatsoever what the other teams were thinking of offering Brunell (by defintion the move the Skins made was preemptive). So YOUR factual database as well as perhaps that of the Skins is entirely speculative. So much of what is being trotted out as fact is nothing like that. One sided argument that ignores what is obvious to most who adopt a common sense approach to these things - that good things and mistakes occurred - and endless character attacks. the latter is how you argue - it has its charm, but wears thin at times.

I will suffer in blissful ignorance, comfortable in the notion that fact wizards like yourself are the ultimate guardians of truth and the American way! and when reality conflicts with the ideal - why "we don't know what is really going on" is the all-purpose out on this board. how magnificnetly convenient. an exit strategy if ever there were one!

if we really wanted to have some fun...we would expand on bubba's somewhat amaturish armchair pyschology and examine the need for constant attention and positive reinforcement some appear dependent upon.

to provide you a target (knowing that is what you like most!): I only am interested in how the game is played and the result. the rest just isn't worth splitting an artery over (no pun intended) - it's peripheral to what happens on the field and the win/loss column.

HTTR!!!!!

Art

March-10th-2005, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by fansince62
art....all rationalizing aside....the team has essentially been on the losing end of the stick for 13 years. that's a record that may satisify standards in your profession....not mine.

will you ever tire of the juevenile caterwauling? let's take the Brunell post - you argued to a pov supposedly based on facts - but you have no idea whatsoever what the other teams were thinking of offering Brunell (by defintion the move the Skins made was preemptive). So YOUR factual database as well as perhaps that of the Skins is entirely speculative. So much of what is being trotted out as fact is nothing like that. One sided argument that ignores what is obvious to most who adopt a common sense approach to these things - that good things and mistakes occurred - and endless character attacks. the latter is how you argue - it has its charm, but wears thin at times.

Well, I would appreciate if you would debate the content of words spoken in threads within the threads they were spoken. Is that a difficult thing to ask? But, since we're here and you need to speak here, let me help you out.

I never stated I had any idea what other teams were thinking of offering Brunell. What I wrote, fairly specifically, was the following:

A high number of teams were interested in talking with Brunell had he become free. His contract would have been worked out based on a number of teams bidding for him and may have surpassed what he got with us. We have no idea since we prevented that from happening, which, at the time, seemed pretty smart.

See?

I didn't offer this as a fact. I speculated that given the high number of teams we knew were reported to be interested in Brunell, that had he been a free agent, his contract would have been worked out based on a number of teams bidding for him and that process may have surpassed what he got from us.

I wrote we have no idea how that would have worked out because WE prevented that from happening, which I defined earlier as by offering a pick to assure sole time to woo. The comment I was speaking in response to was a FACTUAL assessment that WE were the ONLY team interested in Brunell for a pick or for the price.

The ONLY person who presented a factual position was the person I responded to. I simply wrote that factual position had no basis in fact as the facts OF the situation clearly defined a different process. So, I will probably stop with the character attacks and caterwalling the moment you are able to read what I wrote and respond to the words, and not the words you imagined.

And, since you are obviously upset by point of view facts being offered, then, you should really slam DF, since my position included words like "had he become free", "may", "we have no idea". I find it disturbing you read MY statement and assigned IT as a fact, yet you ignored the factual assertion that led to my reply at all. I think better of you in such things, Al. Don't make me regret that after this thread, ok?

I will suffer in blissful ignorance, comfortable in the notion that fact wizards like yourself are the ultimate guardians of truth and the American way! and when reality conflicts with the ideal - why "we don't know what is really going on" is the all-purpose out on this board. how magnificnetly convenient. an exit strategy if ever there were one!

Somewhat ironic, don't you think, that the OUT to people like you who make false factual assertions is for people like me to suggest "we don't know what is really going on." And, yet, you blame people like me for suggesting we know factually something other, when, in fact, it's people like me attempting to guide you slowly back from positions you can't possible state in the manner you state them by letting you know that we don't know what's really going on.

We also have the situation where you have made statements that have been verifiably false and that has been pointed out. Your Bruce Smith comment, for example, is one I routinely use to show a half truth, false statement, given we KNOW the actual facts of that situation and people like you fail to actually speak to it, thereby allowing facts to minimize your position.

if we really wanted to have some fun...we would expand on bubba's somewhat amaturish armchair pyschology and examine the need for constant attention and positive reinforcement some appear dependent upon.

Again, somewhat ironic, don't you think that merely ONE POST after you wrote, "right on DESTINO!" you would comment with scorn OTHERS who would offer support for a position they agree with? That's just embarrassing for you guy. You want to examine the need for constant attention and positive reinforcement some appear to be dependent upon? Well, why are you dependent upon it by offering it up?

Conversations shouldn't be this one-sided Al. When they are, it usually means one side is offering up a position they can't actually defend, and they tend to charge the other side for exposing their failings. Don't be such a hypocritical baby. If you don't like people rooting on things Bubba says or I say, then don't set a bad example as you have in thread after thread on THIS topic, by propping up the ignorant wretches who believe the fairy tales you tell.

Goose and gander and all that come to mind.

to provide you a target (knowing that is what you like most!): I only am interested in how the game is played and the result. the rest just isn't worth splitting an artery over (no pun intended) - it's peripheral to what happens on the field and the win/loss column.

HTTR!!!!!

Wins and losses, absolutely do matter. And, here you get to look at the clear success of player acquisitions and two years of solid drafting (six of seven players on the roster) and realize where the failure is. You really do get to do that. At some point.

If we go 14-2 this year, it won't be because the people you blame for our failure got better overnight. It'll be because the people responsible for our failure got better. Thankfully Gibbs is the guy who failed who can get better. That is a promise we are all very happy about.

Here's the sad part, though Al.

In this very thread you see where I admitted to being in error. Where I thought adding Brunell was smart when we did it, and his play made it obvious it was a poor move to have made. Here, I had an opinion, recognized the realities of the play, and was able to alter the opinion to reflect those realities and admit it openly and without shame.

I STILL can't get YOU to admit ONE FACTUAL error. Not a single one. Why is that do you think?

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

March-10th-2005, 04:34 PM

My criticisms of the team are well-known around these parts, especially regarding our favorite QB.

That said, I consider myself a "positive" fan because I still look at facts, not mere perception.

I think you can't help but be positive when you have a thorough understanding of how the franchise got to where it is now and the direction in which it's moving and how it's being managed.

Does it mean I'm glad Smoot or Pierce are gone? Of course not. But teams can win without pieces it thought it needed. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Beyond that, you won't see me foaming at the mouth whining and bitching about Snyder or "obstructed view seats" or any of the other talking points that seem to be the replacement for rational conversation around here(at times.)

Frankly, I'm kind of sick of certain opinions which are based wholly on falsehoods and misperceptions.

And this comes from someone who said after the season that we will be 8-8 this year unless some real changes were coming. Well, guess what? I think I see some real changes being made on offense and I don't think we're finished yet. I'm not making any guarantees or predictions but the true sign of a logical and open mind is being able to accept and incorporate new evidence.

Not seeing a lot of that from certain quarters on this board.

Henry

March-10th-2005, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin
My criticisms of the team are well-known around these parts, especially regarding our favorite QB.

That said, I consider myself a "positive" fan because I still look at facts, not mere perception.

I think you can't help but be positive when you have a thorough understanding of how the franchise got to where it is now and the direction in which it's moving and how it's being managed.

Does it mean I'm glad Smoot or Pierce are gone? Of course not. But teams can win without pieces it thought it needed. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Beyond that, you won't see me foaming at the mouth whining and bitching about Snyder or "obstructed view seats" or any of the other talking points that seem to be the replacement for rational conversation around here(at times.)

Frankly, I'm kind of sick of certain opinions which are based wholly on falsehoods and misperceptions.

And this comes from someone who said after the season that we will be 8-8 this year unless some real changes were coming. Well, guess what? I think I see some real changes being made on offense and I don't think we're finished yet. I'm not making any guarantees or predictions but the true sign of a logical and open mind is being able to accept and incorporate new evidence.

Not seeing a lot of that from certain quarters on this board.

That's a great post Ghost, and I rarely agree with anything you write. :)

Art

March-10th-2005, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Henry

That's a great post Ghost, and I rarely agree with anything you write. :)

Henry,

Please don't reinforce the opinion of people you agree with. That would upset Al who has exclusive rights to such behavior. Thanks.

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

March-10th-2005, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Henry

That's a great post Ghost, and I rarely agree with anything you write. :)

Hmm. I'm gonna have to go to work on changing that then ;)

You disagreed initially on Brunell, right? :poke: :silly:

Henry

March-10th-2005, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin
You disagreed initially on Brunell, right? :poke: :silly:

We will not speak of that again. :)

fansince62

March-10th-2005, 07:09 PM

jpark....right on!

whoops....wouldn't want to "reinforce" anyone!!

fansince62

March-10th-2005, 07:42 PM

art...correct me if I'm wrong...but more than once over the years you have commented in The Tailgate about events in the Middle East - an area where you have no experience and certainly no immediate contacts and "insider" knowledge. Yet, you have availed yourself of the opportunity to render judgement based on what, I imagined, you gleaned from newspapers, TV and the Internet. kinda like a lot of other folks have done with the Skins.

bruce smith?!!! bahahahahaha. you refernce a point in time during the infamous "learning" curve. well...as noted above...all we have to go on are stories in the press - you know like threatening players. I can well imagine why Snyder would have done that...the whole l'affaire Coles has been pretty maddening....but adults don't do that sort of thing. they use power very subtly. do I know for a "fact" Snyder threatened Coles? No. I only have the word of one of the parties and no public denials by the other.

again...I could care less about Snyder: there's nothing, from what I have seen and read over the years, particularly redeeming about the man. For obvious reasons, I wish him success as an owner. but, ultimately, I only bother to think about the guy (over the last few years) when folks like you feel compelled to polish his apples. If you want to champion causes - like he is a "great owner" - which cannot be proven......that is one way to kill time I guess.

on to the Skins. here's what we know

- Gibbs is opening the offense; he obviously feels speed was lacking in the passing game. hopefully we will see many fewer of the 2 steps up and one back pass patterns that drove Coles to distraction

- Jansen is coming back; it's reasonsable to assume we will remain a running team first and foremost; CP should be healthy; Samuels will be helathy and happy; Dockery is do or die; thomas will be healthy......the O should improve.....how much we won't know until the changed gameplan meets a real defense

- we have a QB in place from day 1 who has a year under his belt and is presumably studiing hard during the off-season; this is do or die for him this season.......I hope he makes it...but then, I have always been prejudiced in favor of bright people

- we should be more "stout" up the middle with rabach ...particularly on passing downs....this should buy another second or two allowing the mid patterns certainly and the deep ones perhaps to open up. this was probably the best move of the entire offseason.

- lavar will be back and healthy...having your all-pro LB return can't hurt

- we have question marks at CB, MLB......no one knows whether players will rise to the challenge or not...again....have to wait for pre-season to see how these key postions play out

- we have more or less kept the d-line in tact but still need a pass rushing threat from the line to provide williams even more options

- we have greg williams coaching: he reminds me today of Gibb's teams back in the day - he always has something up his sleeve that wrings the best out of what he has

- the defense will be good again....but it's not evident whether it can remain a top 5 unit given the personnel changes; again, too early to forecast

everything said and done...with the exception of pierce/smoot....the stability has been a net plus. we add an impact first round selection and the team has to improve...the offense can't be as bad as it was last season. my own feeling is that we can more or less assume that we will see more production out of the offense. what might be at issue is whether the offensive delta will be great enough to balance out or overcome possible lapses in defense comeing from personnel turnover.

any facts in that story? no. but it's what one does on a message board like this.

httr!

Tarhog

March-10th-2005, 10:08 PM

Art

March-10th-2005, 10:59 PM

Al, you're wrong.

From the opening paragraph, to the next, when you suggest I ever mentioned Smith, when it was YOU who did that, and did so with false information, to suggesting it was bad for Snyder to throttle Coles when shortly after this possibility happened, Coles lowered his demands for a new contract -- which is what Snyder threatened him to cause -- helping his coach make the move he wanted, to, simply being a fringe nut on this topic.

Many of the assessments you make on the team this year have some thought behind them and therefore, right or wrong, have merit. When you ended this post, you wrote that there were no facts, yet, what you continue to miss is no one needs FACTS when offering a thoughtful, well presented point of view.

We DO require facts when a person uses a story that is fictional to suggest something bad was just done. You know the difference, and here, you seem to lose sight of it once again.

Thoughtful negative views as expressed by Henry and Gichin in another thread are rare, and, that's what we hope to see here. People who know the facts, and come to a conclusion based on the importance of some complete facts. You have, on this topic, come to a conclusion based on fiction, lies and half truths.

But, on this issue, that's the absolute norm for you people. When you can't present a point against Snyder with the thought, care, and merit you can present an assessment of this year's team, it probably means something. Don't you think?

Chachie

March-10th-2005, 11:14 PM

It's a coaches' "all-in!" :laugh:

fansince62

March-11th-2005, 06:35 AM

art...you don't get it....the balance of the discussion vis Snyder has been subjective from the very start. "Propositions" such as "he is a great owner" cannot be proven. There is no gold standard for what constitutes a great owner. That, true to the deliberative course you sometimes enjoy persuiing, admits of any series of "facts" strung together to prove any subjective notion: it can't be wrong and it can't be right.

What the standard is for "facts" is, of course, an interesting discussion in and of itself. But facts don't PROVE anything. And shouting at someone that my insider knowledge trumps your newspaper/television bound conjecture with the duty provocative "ignoranmous/liar" calls into question your credibility. you're a bright guy. you understand the relationship of hypothesis and fact. you can adduce credible argument. but that's not what you do a good deal of the time. you take isolated statements, confront them with other isolated statements, and then argue "see, idiot, your argument is false." it's fun to watch - but one has to see it for what it is.

as for Coles - I think you are walking down an awkward path here. He, and his agent, took the Skins to the cleaners. Unlike yourself, I have exercised some modicum of "power" or influence, if you will, over large groups of people. There are ways of getting what one wants - the best ways - all the while smiling in the face of the intended victim and not disrupting the present and future relationships with others. Threats are almost always the course of last resort. It indicates that emotions rather than cool and cunning are in control.

One last time: I don't really care about Snyder. From what I have seen and read there is nothing - as a person - that sets him above the fray; that dignifies him as someone endowed with special human qualities that warran the adulation some seem prepared to accord the man. As an owner, I'm frankly not sure what to think. You have already established that winning/losing cannot be chalked up on his persoanl owner balance sheet. Since that is all I really care about, Dan Snyder really doesn't matter much to me as an owner either. I hope he succeeds in whatever it is that an owner is supposed to do that assists others who do the real work that makes for winning football.........but he is a sideshow; a distraction. I ahve agreed all along that it is Joe, his coaching staff, and the players who count. Snyder is some guy with an expensive toy being taught by others how to play with the toy in a way that doesn't break it - terrific!

Art

March-11th-2005, 07:17 AM

Al,

I get it quite well. My view on Snyder is he's a great owner. I outline criteria by which I believe this to be the case. And, I OPENLY state, have stated, and will state, a reasonable, thoughtful rationale for NOT thinking this can be brought to the table.

You haven't done that. Not in a single post. You began with half truths, extended it to outright lies, added inconsequential thoughts, and got worse, worse, worse, then laughable. I maintained the discussion must be constrained to reality. You can't dislike Snyder because, AS YOU SAID, he took a meeting with Bruce Smith so Smith could ask for more playing time, saying that undermined his coaches without saying, in fact, he told Smith to go to the coaches because he wouldn't undermine them and playing time was their call.

I've never believed I've proved my position is factually correct. All I've done is prove YOURS and those like you are factually incorrect. Might you be able to put together a factual, fair, reasonable rationale for being against Snyder. Absolutely.

You just haven't bothered to do that.

One does have to, eventually, see this for what it is. And what this is, is a conversation between two people. One, on the pro Snyder side, who has CLEARLY outlined what an owner is, to him, why then, Snyder is a great owner, and detailed the examples that are encouraging to him, while consistently and constantly opening the door to thoughtful positions to the contrary, knowing they are there.

This person is speaking to a bulk of others who have made conclusions based on factually incorrect or incomplete foundations, unwilling to listen to anyone else who has a thoughtful rationale for thinking other than they do. This is YOU. Remember, Al. I have continually sought input from others as to why my thoughts are incorrect. You have continually sought SOLELY to suggest they are, without ever bothering to be compelling. On this topic, you've proven out of your league.

And, you need to get yourself back on track.

In closing, whether Coles took the Skins to the cleaners or not, is irrelevant. Gibbs wanted Coles gone in a trade. Gibbs thought Moss was a guy he wanted. Coles complicated things by believing the Skins didn't do what they said, and made such a deal difficult. Snyder, who could reasonably have been said to be somewhat discouraged by the idea of this trade, didn't sit in his office and hope it went away. He went to the player and said, "Boy, you don't have all the leverage here." If reports are to be believed, he told him, if you don't come down off your demands in this trade, I will make it my personal owner mission to destroy you. If the reports are to be believed. And, right after he did this, the player altered his position and allowed the trade to go through.

You don't have to like the deal. I don't. You don't have to believe it was smart. I don't, though I understand the rationale behind it. But, what you have to do is remind yourself, the owner did EVERYTHING HE COULD do as an owner, if reports are to be believed, to support his coach and help make happen what his coach wanted to make happen.

And, if reports are to be believed, what Snyder did had a direct, and positive impact in making happen what his coach wanted to make happen. Which, in the scheme of ownership supporting football people, is a classic case to the good. If reports are to be believed.

While you continue to say you don't care about Snyder in every thread that may have a positive view of Snyder, I say, you care deeply. You have a personal animus against him because of the personal ties you have to someone who was fired by Snyder. For YEARS you've never allowed yourself to demonstrate you don't care about Snyder. And with each convoluted position against, whenever anyone has the gumption to be for, you verify you care very deeply.

One way to show you don't care, in the future, would actually be to shut up on the topic once in a while. I do care. That's why I discuss it. You don't. So, well, hush. Right?

fansince62

March-11th-2005, 07:42 AM

art....I gave you your answer - and stop with the bruce smith tangent - there is no standard for a great owner. you can frame any set of facts you want to support ANY notion of what is inherently a subjective assertion. it's a stale venture from the very outset. I can easily state "I don't accept your notion that a geat owner is defined as someone who gives his coaches what they want - or whatever the thesis of the week happens to be." There is nothing encumbant upon me to argue your hypothesis - there is no right answer. It's a fools errand to argue thusly.

so keep harping on Snyder. I too am laughing: at the investment you are prepared to make in this. It's not on my plate of truly important issues Art.

Art

March-11th-2005, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by fansince62
art....I gave you your answer - and stop with the bruce smith tangent - there is no standard for a great owner. you can frame any set of facts you want to support ANY notion of what is inherently a subjective assertion. it's a stale venture from the very outset. I can easily state "I don't accept your notion that a geat owner is defined as someone who gives his coaches what they want - or whatever the thesis of the week happens to be." There is nothing encumbant upon me to argue your hypothesis - there is no right answer. It's a fools errand to argue thusly.

so keep harping on Snyder. I too am laughing: at the investment you are prepared to make in this. It's not on my plate of truly important issues Art.

There you go, Al. Some small sign you've actually read a post and processed something.

There is no standard for a great owner. There is belief as to what the standard is. You are also correct you can frame any set of facts you want to support ANY notion of what is inherently a subjective assertion. Right on. Which is why I continue to state there are thoughtful, reasonable, factual reasons NOT to like Snyder.

But, what you can't do, and what YOU have done, is utilize fiction to support your notion of what is an inherently subjective opinion and by utilizing fiction, you render your opinion false as well. It's the basis by which you come to a conclusion that offers the conclusion merit.

That you SEE what the conversation is, is great. That you don't see the particulars of why some of you are, in fact, fools on this topic, is troubling. You can, absolutely, suggest you don't accept my notion that a great owner is defined by someone who hires good people, gives his people what they want and provides the funding to do things other teams can not. What you can't do is suggest the thesis ever changed. This has been stated for a couple of years.

You, on the other hand, have continually adjusted what definition makes a good owner. Remember, YOU said a good owner has to hire people who are philosophically similar to the person no longer with the team -- meaning hire a similar coach after a failed coach leaves, itself a poor idea -- and failing to do so is an error. Then, confronted with the particulars of the error, would you have hired Joe Gibbs, you say, "The particulars don't matter."

You float like a butterfly but sting like a bed mite.

Yet, you realize, on the topic here, there is no correct answer. You just fail to acknowledge there ARE wrong answers. Answers, for example, that cite Snyder undermined his head coach by allowing Smith to come to him about playing time, without citing Snyder told Smith to go to his coaches, as he didn't control playing time, they did. That is fiction. Therefore, it is factually incorrect to say it's a negative on Snyder.

Now, had you bothered to tell the whole story, you could THEN have said, "Despite Snyder telling the player to go to his coaches for playing time, the fact that the player felt he MIGHT be able to end around his coach is an atmosphere that creates a lack of authority at Redskins Park."

This may not be something I'd agree with, but, it is something grounded in the facts, and can be concluded.

Again, you haven't bothered to do that a single time to this point in the entire conversation you care nothing about yet have posted dozens of times on. And, remember, I'm not making that substantial an investment here. The vast majority of Skins fans are on my side. A minority are against me and the vast majority of that minority utilize fiction to make conclusions.

I can always trump them by proving their facts are wrong and with incorrect facts, the conclusion is wrong, until the conclusion matches up with the facts. Take DF, who you earlier supported here and I totally invalidated. That wasn't an investment for me, but, you can be sure, I'm DONE giving idiots carte blanche to make up any lie they wish on this topic.

And I'm a lot better at this stuff than the morons on your side, and I have a lot more people ON my side than you do. My job is easy, remember. Facts speak for themselves. As long as your side doesn't bother with that, my job is easy.

fansince62

March-11th-2005, 08:23 AM

art...as df points out...you have a nasty habit of twisting the thoughts of others........it was a while ago....but the notion put into play was that there was no consistent football philosophy by the front office from coach to coach. your counter doesn't undercut that FACT one iota. You, instead, argued that that is not the role of an owner. his job is to support the coach, whomever that might be, and his football philosophy . ownerships job was to get the best guy available - you have used that argument many times to support the hires of such sa Spurrier - or, when it suits your purposes, the ever useful "it was the consensus among the cognicienti that this was a good hire." I haven't changed that opinion at all. again - a subjective pov. I am flattered that you either rember the thoughts from all the 1000s of "cyber conversations" you have held or have gone back to research the archives. for once, I am humbled!

do you get away with this style of argument in your real work life?

Art

March-11th-2005, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by fansince62
art...as df points out...you have a nasty habit of twisting the thoughts of others........it was a while ago....but the notion put into play was that there was no consistent football philosophy by the front office from coach to coach. your counter doesn't undercut that FACT one iota. You, instead, argued that that is not the role of an owner. his job is to support the coach, whomever that might be, and his football philosophy . ownerships job was to get the best guy available - you have used that argument many times to support the hires of such sa Spurrier - or, when it suits your purposes, the ever useful "it was the consensus among the cognicienti that this was a good hire." I haven't changed that opinion at all. again - a subjective pov. I am flattered that you either rember the thoughts from all the 1000s of "cyber conversations" you have held or have gone back to research the archives. for once, I am humbled!

do you get away with this style of argument in your real work life?

Surprisingly, Al, in real work, people don't openly lie and pretend they didn't say what they said. In the real world, people actually remember what they actually said and allow a conversation to take place that denies they ever said it at any point. Here, it's different and it's strange. In real life, I'm larger, stronger, and meaner than most people, so, perhaps they take the easy road and simply own up to what they say out of fear I'll harm them.

Here, absent that fear, people actually go so far as to deny they ever said what they said. Worse, they've got little cheerleaders like you on the sidelines -- guys who've been treated badly in a conversation and will not let me get away with it with others -- who come in and say, "Yeah, he said you twisted his words." You believed him when he said that, and didn't even bother to READ HIS WORDS.

The reason I am able to carry on conversations such as this, Al, is because I do remember what people say. I remember and force them to account for false statements, as I'm doing for DF. In your case, rest assured, I didn't go back to look anything up. So outrageous and goofy was your assessment, I immediately filed it away as ammunition to use against people like you. As a taunt.

The concept that it is NEGATIVE that Snyder hasn't made hires who are consistent in their football philosophy, yet, it is POSITIVE he made a hire (Gibbs) who wasn't consistent in his football philosophy from the last guy. It's stuff like this that provide nuggets of verbal gold for guys like me.

And, I thank you for this stuff each day.

Now, wave your pom-poms, say you're out of here, you don't care, and see you in five minutes.

jnova

March-11th-2005, 08:58 AM

I think im a positive one i dont know im really looking forward with the FA acts

MonkeySkin

March-11th-2005, 10:11 AM

I don't think it's positive vs negative...

I think it's this area and how people are. Every game I went to last season, I was disapointed in the fans considering Gibbs was back, and just looking at the time and score board and seeing people leave :doh: It was horrible... Yes, I'm a Gibbs believer, but how could I not be? If it wasn't for him, I probably wouldn't BE a Redskins fan... Who knows what made the 18yr olds around here fans, but Gibbs made me a fan.

I honestly got the opinon that Redskins fans these days are the worst fans in the NFL, and I felt we didn't deserve to win last season. By going to the games and reading some of the rediculous trash people were saying on this board... One minute this player is great, the next minute he's trash, one minute Gibbs is great, the next minute Gibbs is a old fart, etc... The crap said about Gibbs was AMAZING, and I'll never forget that. This forum is GREAT for news, but I hate you all.

Ask yourself this, if you saw a radom dude out in public with some Redskins gear on, do you think it would be worth it to talk to him? I think 90% of the time it wouldn't.

Chief skin

March-11th-2005, 11:13 AM

We all love the Redskin organization or we would not be on this site year round. Some of us feel displaying any negativity or voicing criticism is not being loyal or not being a fan. My opinino is that is a crock of crap, it is because we care so deeply that we b1tch and moan when we see stupid mistakes being made by management, I love the REDSKINS and hate Snyder and Cerato, for driving this once proud franchise into the toilet and refusing to admit they haven't got a clue about runnig a successful franchise

Jimmythehair

March-11th-2005, 11:48 AM

I have not posted in a very long time because I have been working overtime and spending most of my time with my son who is now seven months old. Due to that, a lot of you have no idea on my feeling about the Skins and Skin fans. I am 40 years old and have been a Skins fan from day one. I have seen many ups and downs with the Skins and seen how Skins fans deal with the team.

Before I talk and the fans I have to say I am appalled how many cowboy fan there are in the DC area especially since a lot of them were born in DC. :dallasuck
I just had to get that off my chest.

I hate the people who always see the glass half empty instead of half full. I prefer to be positive and stand behind my team. I have my opinions on different decisions made by the team but if I had all of the answers I would not be on this website, I would be making a lot of money coaching football.

As for Skins fan, one thing I hate to disagree with Coach Gibbs about is when he says Skins fans are the best in the world. Don’t miss understand me, there are many great die-hard fans and with stick with them through thick and thin. But I have seen may fans turn on the Skins even when they have been on top. I’m not talking about giving constructive criticism with a decision here and there, but hearing fans talk crap and disrespect them at the drop of a hat burns me up. I agree that everyone is human and can make bad decisions from time to time. I have no problem with people discussing and even being mad at those decisions but to jump ship or go off half cocked, every time they don’t like something is a different matter. There is a difference in giving constructive criticism and being negative.

I have also seen many fans I thought were die-hard fans change teams when things have gone bad. I know they were never true fans anyhow and they will never be loyal to any team.

Right now we have a great coaching staff on both sides of the ball and even thought our offense was ranked 30 last season doesn’t mean it will stay that way. I say forget the negativity and stay positive because the Skins will be on top again!!!
:cheers:

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

March-11th-2005, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Chief skin
We all love the Redskin organization or we would not be on this site year round. Some of us feel displaying any negativity or voicing criticism is not being loyal or not being a fan. My opinino is that is a crock of crap, it is because we care so deeply that we b1tch and moan when we see stupid mistakes being made by management, I love the REDSKINS and hate Snyder and Cerato, for driving this once proud franchise into the toilet and refusing to admit they haven't got a clue about runnig a successful franchise

Have you read the thread? Elucidate for us this position of how Snyder and Cerrato 'drove' the franchise into the ground, while someone John Cooke was blowin' up the spot with wins and successful hires and championships.

And as stated earlier, I've been far more critical than some of the outright homers on the board, but I also don't change my tune about guys like some do. One need only read a couple of Lavar or Ramsey threads from the past year or two to see what I'm talking about.

I think you've chimed in twice yet haven't actually supported your position and have just left it at the level of emotional appeal.

jimster

March-11th-2005, 12:03 PM

Good Post Jimmythehair, and congrats on your son.

I agree with everything you said.

The fans that jump ship when things are rough, miss out on the payoff when they get better again, or even just when you upset someone you're "not supposed" to beat. - I mean, When you get mad at someone in your family, do you go out and find a new family?:laugh:

Loyalty is a beautiful thing.:logo:

LightenupSandyBaby

March-11th-2005, 12:25 PM

The Greatest coachs in the NFL have failed simply because insufficient action was taken upon them. Coach Gibbs is the remedy of this situation!!! Never Mock the Legend! Sorry Joe I must admit I have done my share....Damn reporters influencing my opinions!!!

Chachie

March-11th-2005, 02:02 PM

I'd like to say something here. I certainly do not mean any ill-will toward anyone. It's just a thought....

First of all, huge props to Art for keeping his cool while CONSTANTLY under fire in this forum. I've had a couple of "discussions" with him in the past and, as I'm sure everyone knows, he's a TOUGH nut to crack. The man sticks to the facts and uses the numbers WELL to support his views.

Secondly, big ups to Bubba for being the next staunchest supporter of all things B&G, even though many here seem ti enjoy picking on him as well. His demeanor is alot funnier and friendlier than Art's, but he still takes on angry mobs every week, it seems, and never flinches.

I salute you both. HOWEVER....

Have you guys noticed that in spite of all your efforts and all your dedication to holding up the walls of FedEx Field, you guys have basically been DEAD WRONG for many years now.
Now wait JUST A SECOND before you foam at the mouth while hitting the "quote" icon to blast away and make me look stupid, which you both are quite capable of doing. :)

All I mean is that even though I end up siding with you guys 90% of the time (after all, common sense and logic ARE inescapable and these ARE your best tools for fending off the Negative Nancys) I must say that our beloved Washington Redskins have DEFIED that common sense, that logic, and that fierce defense of their organization pretty much EVERY year since you fellas started!

It's a tribute to you guys that you rise and rock everyday of your lives in the name of the 'Skins, but do you EVER get tired of being SO wrong about this team EVERY year?

I do. And I don't have to deal with anywhere CLOSE to the amount of "BS" you guys put up with.

Once again, not looking to spar. It's just that even though you are usually very "logical", it never seems to do you any good. :(

Art

March-11th-2005, 03:47 PM

Except Chachie, it's rare I'm ever wrong. Occassionally I'm wrong. When I stated we didn't give up a draft pick for Marty, and we did, I was wrong. When I stated a few days ago that Mayberry was the LT for the Eagles not the LG, I thought I said LT, but didn't, and was wrong.

Rarely do I have my facts incorrect.

Somewhat more frequently I am incorrect in how I view the possibilities of a situation. I thought, for very specific reasons, the Redskins MIGHT achieve a very good record last year. I turned out to have overestimated what I thought could wind up being the biggest key.

I was wrong when I felt our defense would not hold up as well as it did last year. But, when you allow yourself reasonable, thoughtful positions, based on fact, you are NEVER going to be embarrassed for offering up a position.

It is the embarrassment of the thoughtless positions of others, that allows a back and forth, but, in the balance, I'm not under fire at all, ever. I fire. And I hit what I shoot at. Always. Along the way, some bristle at having found themselves in the crosshairs. But, as one person I debated on this very board TODAY said to me in a private message, I am the heart and soul of this board.

Likely not precisely true, but, from a spirit point, I am likely the single most despised and yet cheered on poster here. Why? Because dumb people hate smarter people, and smarter people secretly love dumb people to be embarrassed. So my life never gets dull.

footballhenry

March-11th-2005, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Art
Except Chachie, it's rare I'm ever wrong. Occassionally I'm wrong. When I stated we didn't give up a draft pick for Marty, and we did, I was wrong. When I stated a few days ago that Mayberry was the LT for the Eagles not the LG, I thought I said LT, but didn't, and was wrong.

Rarely do I have my facts incorrect.

Somewhat more frequently I am incorrect in how I view the possibilities of a situation. I thought, for very specific reasons, the Redskins MIGHT achieve a very good record last year. I turned out to have overestimated what I thought could wind up being the biggest key.

I was wrong when I felt our defense would not hold up as well as it did last year. But, when you allow yourself reasonable, thoughtful positions, based on fact, you are NEVER going to be embarrassed for offering up a position.

It is the embarrassment of the thoughtless positions of others, that allows a back and forth, but, in the balance, I'm not under fire at all, ever. I fire. And I hit what I shoot at. Always. Along the way, some bristle at having found themselves in the crosshairs. But, as one person I debated on this very board TODAY said to me in a private message, I am the heart and soul of this board.

Likely not precisely true, but, from a spirit point, I am likely the single most despised and yet cheered on poster here. Why? Because dumb people hate smarter people, and smarter people secretly love dumb people to be embarrassed. So my life never gets dull.

Well, in just curious...what is your feeling for this season? personally i think skins BETTER make the playoffs....10-6 is my guess, really....whats yours?....just like to get some incite (i know that its hard to say when were in march but i just mean at this point, what potential do you see?)

wskin44

March-11th-2005, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Art

Likely not precisely true, but, from a spirit point, I am likely the single most despised and yet cheered on poster here. Why? Because dumb people hate smarter people, and smarter people secretly love dumb people to be embarrassed. So my life never gets dull.

Art, there are not just two types of folks. There are "dumb" people who actually appreciate that there are folks who know more or have a better perspective than they do. There are "smarter" people who actually enjoy sharing information and perspectives in a manner that doesn't crush the listener in the process. I find that learning can be a two way street regardless of where the participants stand on the "smart/dumb" ladder if both participants are open to it.

Your world may be shaped to be very competitive, thus disagreements become black and white battlegrounds. That is fine but I'm at an age that verbal battles to the death that end in feelings of wanting to despise or hate someone over anything, much less my favorite pastime, are long past. Too many of my best friends have already died, and I'm only 52, to waist time generating negative feelings. The thing is, not long ago when I was your age, I never let anything go by without calling someone on it. Now I realize that exactly ZERO of those arguments and issues meant anything. Only the relationships ever really mattered.

Although it isn't likely that many true friendships evolve on this board, there is a certain connection between many Redskin fans. While at the games there is a shared euphoria when things are going right and a shared grief when they are not. Most die hard Redskin fans have very personal reasons and memories which make us fans forever. I know that I have mine and I assume that most on this board have theirs, and it binds us like it or not. I've only been on this board for a year, but I truly try to respect that each person has his reasons for being a fan and that to each person their reasons may be as important to them as mine are to me.

Hail to the Redskins.

Chachie

March-11th-2005, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Art
Except Chachie, it's rare I'm ever wrong. Occassionally I'm wrong. When I stated we didn't give up a draft pick for Marty, and we did, I was wrong. When I stated a few days ago that Mayberry was the LT for the Eagles not the LG, I thought I said LT, but didn't, and was wrong.

Rarely do I have my facts incorrect.

Somewhat more frequently I am incorrect in how I view the possibilities of a situation. I thought, for very specific reasons, the Redskins MIGHT achieve a very good record last year. I turned out to have overestimated what I thought could wind up being the biggest key.

I was wrong when I felt our defense would not hold up as well as it did last year. But, when you allow yourself reasonable, thoughtful positions, based on fact, you are NEVER going to be embarrassed for offering up a position.

It is the embarrassment of the thoughtless positions of others, that allows a back and forth, but, in the balance, I'm not under fire at all, ever. I fire. And I hit what I shoot at. Always. Along the way, some bristle at having found themselves in the crosshairs. But, as one person I debated on this very board TODAY said to me in a private message, I am the heart and soul of this board.

Likely not precisely true, but, from a spirit point, I am likely the single most despised and yet cheered on poster here. Why? Because dumb people hate smarter people, and smarter people secretly love dumb people to be embarrassed. So my life never gets dull.

You are in fact the very heart and soul of this board. And a psycho.:)

Park City Skins

March-11th-2005, 08:58 PM

Fairly interesting thread. And informative. I believe I discoverd that I'm a homer. ;) Well, I guess that's the price one pays for having a different opinion and being a glass half full kind of a guy. ;)

Henry

March-11th-2005, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Chachie

You are in fact the very heart and soul of this board. And a psycho.:)

Art I do believe you've found your new sig line. :)

Park City Skins

March-11th-2005, 09:24 PM

He's going to be insufferable for a week after that one....oh wait.... ;)

Park City Skins

March-11th-2005, 11:34 PM

Hmmm perhaps "realists" vs " homers wearing B & G glasses". :rolleyes:

Okay. Food for thought in a thread already full of it, ( in more ways than one), and though I may be dead wrong, I'd rather be that way based on at least some type of informed opinion. Informed by articles and statements such as this.

How things were done a couple of years ago. Don't be afraid of it's length, unless you're afraid of possibly being wrong about certain things.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A62974-2003Mar8&notFound=true

Redskins Assertive on All Signs
Team Moved Fast, Far To Land Its Free Agents

By Mark Maske
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, March 9, 2003; Page D01

As Washington Redskins owner Daniel Snyder and his wife, Tanya, prepared to be photographed with President Bush and first lady Laura Bush during a late-afternoon cocktail party at the White House last Sunday, the president asked Snyder: "How are we looking next year?"

At that moment Snyder was awaiting word on the completion of the final two free agent acquisitions of one of the most dizzying weekends in team history. His cell phone had been put away and set on vibrate mode so the owner could get the news without disturbing the White House function.

"I'm working at it," Snyder told the president. "I'm working hard."

The Redskins had already added seven players in about 65 hours since the NFL player-acquisition market had opened at 12:01 a.m. on Feb. 28. As the Snyders drove from the White House to Ford's Theater later that evening for another engagement, the cell phone brought the news that place kicker John Hall had become the eighth acquisition. The thumbs-up on the signing of quarterback Rob Johnson came soon thereafter.

The Redskins won't know until the fall if their nine-player shopping spree last weekend will result in a dramatic improvement over last season's disappointing 7-9 record. Questions have been raised about whether the Redskins sacrificed a defense ranked fifth in the NFL in the their zeal to improve their offense. But agents, Redskins officials and the players involved in the transactions all agreed that the Redskins were successful in one aspect: They drew up a list of players they wanted, decided to try to get them quickly -- and got many of them.

It all started in the aftermath of Steve Spurrier's troubling first season as an NFL coach. The weaknesses exposed in those 16 games included two huge holes at guard, lack of speed at wide receiver, lack of depth at quarterback, poor safety play and an inconsistent kicking game. The Redskins first evaluated their own players, and drew up a list of every NFL player eligible for free agency. A young front-office member compiled a list of players who might be released in salary cap-related moves. The club's pro scouts evaluated every free agent and possible free agent. Those who didn't qualify as an upgrade were tossed out immediately, even before the team's coaches were brought into the process.

Each coach then was given 15 to 25 players from other clubs to evaluate. They began with defensive players, and worked from 7:30 a.m. until 11 p.m. for three days in mid-February. They watched each player in two to three games. Four days were devoted to offense and half a day to special teams, bringing the total workload to about 100 hours. Vinny Cerrato, the Redskins' director of player personnel, told the group to rate the players on ability and not worry about what they thought the players might cost. Snyder would worry about that. The work was completed about 21/2 weeks before free agency started, and the result was a binder containing about 2,000 pages that would guide everything the Redskins were about to do.

The Redskins had the New York Jets' Randy Thomas rated as their top available guard, with the Jacksonville Jaguars' Zach Wiegert, Dave Fiore of the San Francisco 49ers and the Tennessee Titans' Zach Piller also in the top four. The Philadelphia Eagles' Hugh Douglas, the Green Bay Packers' Vonnie Holliday and the Oakland Raiders' Regan Upshaw were the top three defensive ends. The Thomas section in the Redskins' book has four scouting reports, each with a letter grade, plus a biography page.

Snyder said entering the offseason that he would continue to share the Redskins' decision-making responsibilities with Cerrato and Joe Mendes, the negotiator and salary cap numbers cruncher who serves as the team's vice president of football operations. Spurrier immediately made good on his vow to be more involved in shaping the roster by participating in the wearying player-evaluation meetings. Cerrato pushed for the Redskins to move prudently but quickly. Those teams that worry about overspending early in free agency risk being shut out of the top talent, he argued. To do that, the club would need someone to close deals swiftly and decisively. That person, armed with the huge binder, would be Snyder.

When Redskins officials went to the league's scouting combine in Indianapolis the week before free agency opened, Snyder dined with some of the sport's most prominent agents. He knew all of them, but he wanted to make sure the lines of communication were wide open. It's common for NFL teams and agents to line up deals -- in violation of the league's tampering rules -- before the start of free agency. Jimmy Sexton, the Memphis-based agent who represents Thomas, said last week that he had dinner with Snyder in Indianapolis but no improper negotiations took place.

"I have key players on their [salary] cap," said Sexton, who also represents quarterback Patrick Ramsey, left tackle Chris Samuels and middle linebacker Jeremiah Trotter. "I'll probably be having dinner with Dan five or six times a year."

Off and Flying

On Feb. 27, as free agency approached, Snyder met with Cerrato, Redskins Vice President Pepper Rodgers and offensive coordinator Hue Jackson until 2 a.m. in the conference room that adjoins Snyder's corner office at Redskins Park. Mendes was working the phones in a nearby office. The salary cap cuts by other teams had begun to come in. Those in Snyder's office read on the 49ers' Web site that Fiore would be released.

That day, Snyder sent his private jet, nicknamed Redskins One, to Dallas to pick up Raghib Ismail. Cerrato and Jackson rode on the jet with the speedy wide receiver, who had been released by the Dallas Cowboys and wasn't subject to the Feb. 28 deadline. Snyder, Cerrato and Jackson took Ismail to a late-night dinner at a Reston steakhouse. Cerrato, who had once successfully recruited Ismail to Notre Dame, tried to sell him on coming to another NFC East team by telling him: "You get to face Dallas twice a year."

Cerrato told Ismail he wanted him to mentor the club's younger wide receivers the way that Irving Fryar had done for the Redskins a few years ago. Cerrato later had Fryar call Ismail on the Redskins' behalf. Ismail never mentioned during his visit that he was contemplating retirement. He even looked at houses with the wife of Redskins administrator Bubba Tyer, who works in real estate.

While Ismail was eating, Snyder's plane was bringing Fiore from San Jose to Dulles. He landed around 1 a.m., and was whisked to a Reston hotel by Jackson. The Redskins kept all their "recruits" in suites at the Hyatt. Cerrato arranged to have each player greeted in his room by a note from the team, a huge fruit basket and a Redskins jersey with his name and number stitched on the back.

That night, as the free agency period opened, Snyder stayed on the phone until 3 a.m. He called Sexton and arranged to have the plane pick up Thomas in Atlanta that morning at 7. Offensive line coach Kim Helton had stayed at the hotel that night. The snow was blocking the driveway at his house, and he was scheduled to be on the plane with Thomas. Wheels-up at Dulles was scheduled for 4:45 a.m.

Snyder also called Upshaw's agent, Drew Rosenhaus, in the hopes of getting Upshaw to Washington on Feb. 28 as well. But Upshaw was in Morocco, finishing a two-week vacation. Snyder arranged to have the jet pick up defensive tackle Brandon Noble in Dallas and make a stop in Chicago to bring along his agent, Rick Smith.

At 8 a.m., Snyder phoned St. Louis Rams President John Shaw. The Redskins had called the Rams just before the trading deadline last season to try to pry away Trung Canidate, a lightning-quick young running back whom Coach Mike Martz disliked. Martz had said he wouldn't part with Canidate because Pro Bowl tailback Marshall Faulk was hurt, but gave the Redskins every reason to believe that Canidate could be had in the offseason. Snyder and the Redskins quickly completed the deal by sending guard David Loverne and a fourth-round draft pick to St. Louis.

The Redskins got Thomas, Noble and Smith to town with no problem. Upshaw was another matter. The plane was dispatched to meet him at JFK when he got off his flight from Casablanca. But Rosenhaus would not let Upshaw get on the jet until Snyder agreed on the parameters of a contract. So with his jet on the ground in New York, Snyder hammered out the basics of a five-year, $7.5 million deal over the phone with Rosenhaus, and Upshaw soon was en route to Dulles to become the Redskins' new starting right defensive end. Only a bad visit could scuttle the deal.

A Numbers Game

Snyder usually has two crews for his Challenger plane, but added a third for the weekend. The jet was part of the Redskins' strategy. As Cerrato told reporters during one break in the action, "When you pick them up in a private plane, they feel special."

The Redskins believed they would have little problem signing Noble, who was eager to play close to his home town of Virginia Beach. Thomas was another matter. Sexton told Snyder he had six serious bidders. Thomas's old offensive line coach with the Jets, Bill Muir, wanted him in Tampa. His old Jets head coach, Bill Parcells, wanted him in Dallas. The Jets wanted to re-sign him and the Titans were in the chase. Snyder had to ante up if he wanted Thomas to sign before leaving town.

Snyder and Sexton began negotiations with a phone call around 10 a.m. What Snyder didn't know is that Thomas had called Sexton a little while earlier and said: "I really want to be here."

Sexton said to his client: "What about your other visits?"

Replied Thomas: "If they'll do the deal, I won't take them."

Even Sexton, a veteran agent, was surprised. "I thought he would definitely take more visits," he said late last week. "Dan was smart. He put enough of a bonus up front for the kid that he could say, 'You might be able to match this somewhere. But can you beat it?' By the time we started negotiating around 10, they'd already done a lot of recruiting. Kim Helton was on the plane with him and worked on him the whole way."

Snyder opened negotiations by asking Sexton what it would take to sign Thomas right away, and Sexton asked for a signing bonus of $6 million to $8 million and an average annual contract value of $4 million. Snyder quickly agreed, and the talks became more about the structure of the contract than the value.

Sexton had a difficult set of negotiations with the Redskins last summer when the club nearly traded Ramsey to the Chicago Bears before signing the first-round draft choice to end his holdout from training camp. The relationship between Sexton and Snyder emerged intact, however. "When you've got a good relationship with somebody, it doesn't take you too long to do a deal if you both want to do a deal," Sexton said.

Snyder called Sexton around 11:30 a.m. with a proposed contract structure, and Sexton called Snyder about an hour later with a few questions. In between negotiating Thomas's deal, the two reworked the contracts of Samuels and Trotter, clearing about $3.5 million in additional salary cap room for the Redskins while guaranteeing about $6 million in previously non-guaranteed income for Sexton's two clients. Snyder also was talking to Rosenhaus about Piller in case he lost Thomas. But Thomas was the prized catch, and he and Sexton kept getting closer.

Snyder wanted Thomas's salary next season to be the minimum of $530,000 to limit the impact on the salary cap. The two agreed that Thomas's salary would jump to $1 million in the second season. Sexton agreed to allow the signing bonus to be paid in three installments instead of one. Around 2 p.m., he called Snyder and agreed to slice a little bit off the average annual value of the contract in exchange for the signing bonus being increased a bit. Sexton told Snyder that if the Redskins would add $100,000 to the second season, $450,000 to the third and $250,000 to the fourth and make the final two years of the contract voidable, they would have a deal.

The agreement was in place around 3 p.m., and both sides got what they wanted. Sexton and Thomas got a $7 million signing bonus and a deal worth, on paper, $3.947 million per season, making it one of the two or three heftiest contracts ever for a guard. The Redskins got a deal that is worth about $3.7 million per season once the two voidable years at the end are lopped off. And they got the player they had coveted the most. Thomas came to Snyder's office and called some of his friends, yelling into the phone: "I'm a Redskin!"

He had Snyder come to the phone to talk to his mother, who told the owner: "God bless the Redskins!" Snyder handed out cigars to Thomas and Helton. Helton doesn't smoke, but puffed on his anyway. Thomas lit his but didn't smoke it. He headed off with Redskins scout Louis Riddick to buy a suit for the news conference the team planned for Saturday. He had money to spend.

Pen, Pad and Phone

The Redskins signed Fiore and announced that move, along with the Canidate trade, on Feb. 28. Nothing happened to mess up the Upshaw deal and Noble's contract fell into line. Smith, the agent, said later: "It made a difference dealing with Dan Snyder. He can make a decision quickly. He's made an effort to reach out and establish a relationship with some of us, and it's working."

A celebration was in order. A dinner party of 14 people headed to a Tysons Corner restaurant. Thomas, Noble and Upshaw were there. The restaurant was given a standing order to bring three trays of food every five minutes, and the group feasted on endless appetizers of oysters, clams and calamari before moving on to the main course of lobster. Thomas called his new partner on the right side of the Redskins' offensive line, tackle Jon Jansen, but had trouble talking as he stuffed lobster into his mouth.

As the night ended, the last three people left at the table were Snyder, Cerrato and Jackson. Snyder led a toast, saying: "To the start of a great offseason."

The plane was back in action March 1. First it went to Tampa and brought back Spurrier. He was on hand for the news conference that evening at which the Redskins announced the signings of Thomas, Upshaw and Noble. Spurrier stood near the team's three Super Bowl trophies and said: "Our personnel department has done a super job hustling these deals."

Afterward, Cerrato held court with reporters outside the auditorium at the team's training facility and praised Snyder, saying: "Mr. Snyder has been on the phone nonstop. I told his wife all he does is walk around with a pen, a pad of paper, a calculator and his cell phone. He was on his phone with an agent during the press conference."

Here's the Kicker

The plane also made a March 1 trip to Fort Myers, Fla., to pick up Hall. The Redskins didn't want to be undone by kicking calamities like they were in the 2000 season, the last time that Snyder, Cerrato and Mendes combined on a series of splashy offseason acquisitions.

When Snyder woke up last Sunday morning, his wife said to him: "Go to Redskins Park and don't come home until the kicker signs. I can't take any more without a kicker." Then Tanya Snyder called Rodgers and said: "Get to the office. I need a kicker."

Hall had been scheduled to leave town last Sunday, but the Redskins were determined not to let him go without a deal. They got him to skip his flight while Snyder negotiated by phone with agent Jim Steiner. While Snyder was at the White House, Spurrier and special teams coach Mike Stock took Hall to dinner. Hall didn't leave town until after the Monday news conference announcing his signing.

The Johnson deal was wrapped up later Sunday evening. Jackson had been doing the recruiting, since the two knew one another. The Cowboys and Buccaneers were in the race until the end. But when Snyder agreed to move his signing bonus up into the neighborhood of the other teams' offers -- to $250,000 -- he and agent David Dunn completed a deal. And Snyder could enjoy the rest of his night at Ford's Theater.

There was more to come. On Tuesday, Ismail informed the Redskins that he would retire. That day, the plane was dispatched, with Cerrato and Jackson, to Nashville to pick up wide receiver Kevin Dyson. The Redskins signed two restricted free agents, safety Matt Bowen and kickoff returner Chad Morton, to offer sheets. But the tone had been set with one wild weekend that was, as far as anyone in the league could remember, unprecedented in its intensity.

"You have to go play," Spurrier said when the initial flurry of moves was completed. "It's all potential right now. But all of these guys have done it in the NFL. Last year we brought in some guys that maybe didn't work out. These are guys who should really strengthen our team . . . . It gives us hope."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30671-2004Nov6.html
Snyder declined to comment through team spokesman Karl Swanson, citing his policy of not granting interviews during the regular season. But in an interview with HBO's "Inside the NFL" before the regular season, Snyder acknowledged he has changed. "Joe has final say on everything. Period," Snyder said. "I've taken my lumps. I've come a long way. I think I've got incredible patience and understand things now that I didn't have when I first came into the league. I've learned a whole bunch."

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74058&highlight=hbo

Costas: In 1983 you only had 18 turnovers the whole year. Last week you had 7. How does that sit with you?

Gibbs: I feel bad for the players. They played as hard so to not get the victory sucks. It shows that playing hard isn;t good enough, we also have to play smart

Costas (to Dan): 7 TO's. If its Spurrier coaching, whats your reaction
Dan: I don't know

Costas: At 63, after 10 years, does a loss feel any different?
Gibbs: No

Costas: How do you guys do things together:
Gibbs: We all do it together. We go through the available players and present who we want to Dan. Dan does everything he can. He does what ever we ask him to do. Its all on me now.

Costas: So, Gibbs doesn't have any player on the roster he doesn't want, he has the final say an even an attempt to sign someone......
Dan: Joe has the final say on everything Redskins
Gibbs: Hold on. Don't say that. Now everyone will blame me if things go wrong.
Costas: No, Dan will probably always get the blame
Gibbs: Dan has a great sense of humor. One time I was telling Dan our offense stunk, and he said "don't worry they'll blame it all on me"

Costas(to Dan): No one has doubter you're willingness to spend. What have you learned since youfirst came in?
Dan: Patience and a better understanding.

Costas: Did you think you knew too much about on-field issues?
Snyder: As an owner you want to stay out of that. I'm here to support and be aggresive, meet with agents, and do what I can to help.

Costas: People said you were nothing more than a rich fan who thought he knew too much
Dan: You brush that stuff off

Costas (to Gibbs): A lot has changed blahblahblah. Like Sports radio. That can be crazy. Do you ever listen?
Gibbs: Sometimes. Not after the Giants game. But I really don't have to listen. I could tell you exactly what they are saying. I could script it. "he's lost touch, out of reality, football has changed" It'll all be about me, and that motivates me because I don't want that to be the case. Bit it could be. Then everyone will yell at Dan for hiring someone who is over the hill.

Costas to Dan: Do you know what they are saying about you?
Dan: I don't listen to sports radio

Costas: Heard from Spurrier?
Dan: No
Gibbs: Yes. He called me. Left messages. He called to wish me success. We got along great. He is a great talent and I hope he is enjoying life. He will be back pretty quick.

Costas: Parcells on Monday. Does that add anything for you
Gibbs: Well. I don't like coaching against him. I know they will be extremly prepared. They did great in his first year last year. #1 D.
Costas: he has an 11-6 record on you. That was when you guys bioth had great teams.
Gibbs: He was the better coach when we went head-to-head. The 11-6 tells you that. We both had good players. He just did better.

Costas: If you suck do you think it will deminish your legacy?
Gibbs: Anyone ever tell you you are a dweeb, Bob? (alright., I threw that in there. He didn;t say that)
Gibbs: To me its where you are not what you're doing. You can play it safe, or take a chance. I am the kind of guy who takes chances instead of sitting around

wskin44

March-12th-2005, 09:12 AM

Costas IS a dweeb.

footballhenry

March-12th-2005, 03:07 PM

great article but why is it in this thread again??

HOGHEAVEN3

March-12th-2005, 03:09 PM

For 18 years I have been a skins fan and through the death of my father and grandfather....watchin the skins win or lose has been the highlights of my year.

dlyjoe5726

March-12th-2005, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by footballhenry
[B]This site has such a wide scope of opinions, outlooks, and views. I find many posts very very interesting, to say the least. It seems that the media is non-stop negative, with the rare positive article here and there. I just wonder what is the reason for negativity? I mean sure if the Skins were in rebuild mode (though to some it may feel like it) like the Dolphins or 49ers then of course negativity is expected. There are so many REDSKINS fans that sound like Cowboy fans to me. Seriously, theyre the ones that profess they love the Skins at the same time they are bashing them. It is very odd to me in some respects.

Sorry, but nothing disgusts me more than the bubble headed pie in the sky Redskins fans who effectively put their brain in a blind trust when it comes to the Redskins. There is nothing wrong with bashing the team and particularly someone like Danny Boy when they deserve it. Which in Danny Boy's case is almost always.

dlyjoe5726

March-12th-2005, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Art
Al,

I get it quite well. My view on Snyder is he's a great owner. I outline criteria by which I believe this to be the case. And, I OPENLY state, have stated, and will state, a reasonable, thoughtful rationale for NOT thinking this can be brought to the table.

Anyone who would use the word "great" and Dan Snyder in the same sentence ought to see a doctor immediately. Danny Boy is right there with Bidwell and Brown as the WORST owners in the NFL. He's a meddling egomaniacal twerp who has run the team into the ground over his ownership and disgraced the franchise through his personal conduct.

Chachie

March-12th-2005, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by dlyjoe5726

Anyone who would use the word "great" and Dan Snyder in the same sentence ought to see a doctor immediately. Danny Boy is right there with Bidwell and Brown as the WORST owners in the NFL. He's a meddling egomaniacal twerp who has run the team into the ground over his ownership and disgraced the franchise through his personal conduct.

I'll be the first to admit that basically, every big move Dan Snyder has made has blown up in his face (and sadly, the faces of the fans.) I can do no more than hope Gibbs can take the reins from here and guide this stagecoach to the playoffs. I don't think one season makes a failed attempt at coaching a decade(+) after one retires. I also think that if he can last through his contract, he'll have us in the post season the last 2-3 years of it. I'm not even thinking Super Bowl because there are plenty of fantastic coaches out there that NEVER win one, and I won't judge Joe on whether he wins a ring this time around with Washington.

(Back to Snyder..)
I don't think there is a team fanbase in the NFL that would have "poo-pooed" signing Deion Sanders at the time the Danny landed him. You NFC East-rival fans can say all you want in hindsight, but I'm not buying it now. However, it blew up in our faces. Snyder looked bad.

Bruce Smith wasn't the player he used to be and okay, probably everybody knew it. It wasn't long before Bruce was holding us hostage to his sack record and... well... it blew up in our faces. Snyder looked bad.

Jeff George. ('nuff said.) Snyder looked like a stooge. We 'Skinfans saw that one coming a mile away.

I could go on, but it's saturday night and I don't want to spend it crying.

My point is that I honestly can't see how any other fan would NOT want an owner who's willing to pay for what is perceived at the time to be the BEST available men for the job (other than Jeff George) and also make alot of money for his business, but I also can't see how any Redskin fan could argue that Dan Snyder is in ANY way a "successful" NFL strategist.

The guys seems to know how to make money. He does NOT, however, seem to know how to spend it.

Art

March-12th-2005, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by footballhenry

Well, in just curious...what is your feeling for this season? personally i think skins BETTER make the playoffs....10-6 is my guess, really....whats yours?....just like to get some incite (i know that its hard to say when were in march but i just mean at this point, what potential do you see?)

I don't know that I have any real thoughts yet on the upcoming season. I tend to wait until late in camp to consider what I think the team might be able to accomplish. I have said in another thread I think 8-8 is a reasonable record to hope for this year as it presumes neither complete failure in Ramsey or Ramsey being very good, just average, and so much of this year will ride on Ramsey's maturity.

In the end, if he's very good, we will not have any major weaknesses as a team. If he's not very good, we could have weakness at QB and receiver and struggle. At some point in August I will side with Ramsey not being good, or being very good, and predict a record according to that key factor.

As there will be little to suggest which way that may fall, I'll probably be hopeful and dream big :).

Art

March-12th-2005, 09:51 PM

TheSteve

March-12th-2005, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Blondie
I believe in speaking without whining and bitching and moaning. I believe in stating a fact ONCE and not beating it to death.
I believe in looking at the forest and not each individual tree.

I believe.

Blondie

Sometimes studying the tree can give you a better understanding of the forest. Each detail makes up the larger picture and examining that detail can help you appreciate the portrait so much more.

But anyway, to give those on board a view of what I'm like as a fan, I find myself agreeing with the Art's and Ghost's most of the time.