Sales Down?

[aejm1400]

By Ed Waldman
Sun Staff
Originally published March 24, 2005
Just think where the Orioles would be without Sammy Sosa.

In the first four months of direct competition with the Washington Nationals, the Orioles have sold about 1.5 million tickets, and they expect to sell about 100,000 more before Opening Day, according to Matt Dryer, the team's senior director of advertising and promotions.



Eleven days before Opening Day 2004, the Orioles had sold about 1.7 million tickets - nearly 12 percent more than this year.

The Orioles have done much to counter the competition from the Nationals, who in September were relocated to the nation's capital by Major League Baseball over the bitter objections of owner Peter Angelos.

The Orioles didn't raise ticket prices. They put single-game tickets on sale in early December, nearly two months earlier than the year before, to take advantage of the Christmas selling season. After striking out in free agency, they traded for the charismatic Sosa.

Negotiators for the Orioles and MLB met for a third straight day yesterday in New York in an attempt to wrap up a deal that would financially protect the team from that competition. The talks, which started in September, adjourned last night without an agreement, but the sides will meet again this morning.

"We continue to make progress," said Alan Rifkin, an attorney for the Orioles who is representing Angelos in New York.

The drop in Orioles ticket sales would seem to back up Angelos' claim that the presence of a team in Washington would hurt his franchise.

"This team is so improved, and with the addition of Sosa, the [ticket] deficiency is far greater," the owner said yesterday. "I would expect that right now we would have been 15 or 20 percent ahead of last year."

In 2004, the Orioles drew almost 2.75 million fans to Camden Yards, a nearly 12-percent jump over 2003. It was the first time they increased attendance in seven seasons.

A similar jump this year would put the Orioles' attendance at 3.05 million. A 12-percent decrease would put them slightly below their 2003 total of 2.45 million.

"We should be around 3 million," Angelos said. "That's where I think we were headed until they put that team there."

The Nationals have sold more than 1.85 million tickets, and they haven't even released a give-away or promotional schedule. Single-game seats for their games at RFK Stadium went on sale March 12, and the team sold 50,000 tickets the first day, according to a Nationals spokesman.

Dryer said he couldn't predict how many tickets the Orioles would have sold if they had signed Sosa but didn't face competition from the Nationals.

"Wow. That's a tough question," he said. "We'd definitely be ahead of last year. How much more it's tough to gauge. It's very hard to measure how much it has hurt us."

He also said he couldn't put a figure on how many tickets Sosa has been worth.

"I just know that since he got here, there's been a continuous buzz," Dryer said. "People are talking about it on the street."

Dryer said his goal is to at least match last year's attendance. The Orioles have three April home dates with both the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox - two teams that traditionally draw big crowds to Camden Yards. More than 40,000 tickets have been sold to all three of the Yankees games, he said.

If the team plays well at the beginning of the season, anything is possible, Dryer said.

"I think Opening Day, when Sammy Sosa sprints out to right field, and the fans get to see the new guys we have in the bullpen and the team that did very well last year in the second half, I think that will parlay into some very good ticket sales," he said.

[TheDoyler23]

The line "Think where they'd be withough Sosa" is pretty telling to the situation, but I don't think the Nats are the only reason. The looming steriod issue as well as the fact that the O's didn't have a good free agency period. Orioles fans aren't dumb and know a whitewash when they see one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Sosa is here. I'd take the rental of a HOFer over a guy who will never earn his 50 million contract in a second.

Although on paper attendence is gonna be REALLY good for the first month, it's becuase of all the games against the Yanks and Sox. Hopefully the O's can carve out a good record in the first month, which will certainly help at the gate.

[flyingtiger1013]

Field a winner and the people will buy tickets. I have no problem going to see the O's and have a wonderful picture of my 2 youngest at Ralph Cramden Yards from last year on my wall here at work. Will we go to see the Nats? Damn straight! But should we decide to go to Baltimore for the day, we'll see the O's too.

[TheDoyler23]

So it's the Orioles responsability to make up the difference when another team is taking money from their pocket? I gues MLB says so...

Then again, as unfair is is to put a team 37 miles away, it's also unfair for DC to NOT have a team.

[Mooney]

Originally posted by TheDoyler23
Orioles fans aren't dumb and know a whitewash when they see one.


Apparently Angelos doesn't agree. Expecting a 15-20 percent jump in ticket sales from last year? Based on the Sosa signing?

[aejm1400]

No, he said he was expecting to get to 3 million until the put a team in Washington. And based off last year I kinda have to agree with him. This team is only getting better despite the lack of moves. I hope both teams can do well though, as long as it doesn't hurt my O's too much.

[Mooney]

Originally posted by aejm1400
No, he said he was expecting to get to 3 million until the put a team in Washington. And based off last year I kinda have to agree with him. This team is only getting better despite the lack of moves. I hope both teams can do well though, as long as it doesn't hurt my O's too much.


Based off last year? What was done last year to inspire such blind faith?

Sox and Yankee fans overrunning OPACY? A $53M payroll? (with Tejada, Raffy and Lopez).

Where's the pitching? Oh yea, forgot....the Rat is back and suddenly Ponson is gonna be Palmer.

My point to Doyler is that Angelos see O's fans as suckers and fools. Blame Washington for all the O's troubles and pocket the cash.

And ya'll are biting......hook, line and sinker.

[TheDoyler23]

Originally posted by Mooney



Based off last year? What was done last year to inspire such blind faith?

Sox and Yankee fans overrunning OPACY? A $53M payroll? (with Tejada, Raffy and Lopez).

Where's the pitching? Oh yea, forgot....the Rat is back and suddenly Ponson is gonna be Palmer.

My point to Doyler is that Angelos see O's fans as suckers and fools. Blame Washington for all the O's troubles and pocket the cash.

And ya'll are biting......hook, line and sinker.

Based off the fact that the O's had a positive season and added a future HOFer.

There are lost of Sox and Yankee fans everywhere. Sox fans follow the team everywhere, especially since they sell out EVERY GAME, EVERY DAY. The Sox charge 44 bucks for a box seat in SPRING TRAINING for crying out loud. the 53 million payroll is a little misleading, becuase guys like Ponson, Tejada and Lopez made very little in terms to their deals, each making something like 3-5 mil, when Tejada's salary really figures to be around 12 a year. Plus you can factor in that several players like Roberts, Bigbie and Julio are still pre free agency. Those guys would easy make 3-5 mil a year easy on the open market. Their talent belies their price.

As for the rst of your post: :rolleyes:

[Bucaro]

Lots of major metropolis area's have two teams: New York, Chicago, LA (three if SD counts only and hour and a half away), and Oakland/SF. The maket is there but the difference b/w that and Balitmore/DC is that at least one of those teams is usually formidable. If you win, people will come. Simple as that

[Mooney]

Originally posted by TheDoyler23
As for the rst of your post: :rolleyes:


We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding Angelos.

Big brother Washington is no longer available to prop up the attendance figures and revenue streams. Baltimore, as a city and region, will have to step up and financially support the team, something that it has historically had trouble doing. You can thank EBW for saving the team by moving it closer to DC.

You might be old enough to remember Ken Rosenthals almost daily ranting about the "wine and cheese, cell phone" crowd that are Washingtonians. Well, have your seats back.

But quit whining that its not fair that my hometown, the 8th largest market in the country, has a team and its gonna keep the Orioles from competing. Your playing right into PGA's greedy, stubby little hands.

[TheDoyler23]

This season probably will be the first one ever where the Washington team outdraws the Orioles. We'll see in 2006 when the O's are a playoff contender and the novelty wears off down south.

[skinzfan4life]

Well first we will have to see if the O's are a playoff contender. And if the novelty wears off as soon as the new stadium is built it will rise again.

Angelos is jsut quick to use DC as a scapegoat.

[Mooney]

Originally posted by TheDoyler23
We'll see in 2006 when the O's are a playoff contender and the novelty wears off down south.


This is the problem with the typical "Baltimore sports fan". If their team is losing, they stay away in droves. And make excuses. Blame Washington is a popular excuse these days.

The Redskins haven't won in years, and their fans set NFL attendance records. When the Ravens have a few down years, like prior to the fluke SB run, M&T will be a ghost town. And they'll blame their drunken owner. Or Tagliabue. Or JKC.

I guess we'll see.

[TheDoyler23]

When the Orioles were losing, their fans "stayed away in droves" to the tune of: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th and 5th in the AL in Attendance. Of course the past 2 seasons were sans Ripken.

[Mooney]

Originally posted by TheDoyler23
When the Orioles were losing, their fans "stayed away in droves" to the tune of: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th and 5th in the AL in Attendance. Of course the past 2 seasons were sans Ripken.


Factor out the supposed 25% that were Washington area fans.

Then factor out the NYY and BoSox fans (although they are not going away anytime in the near future).

Now we are down to the hard core O's fans, who obviously follow the team win or lose. Unfortunately that number, whatever it is, is apparently not enough to support the team financially for the long term. Especially without the typical Baltimore front runner fans (notice I am not including the hard core fans that do exist) that only show up when they are winning.

Thats why Angelos is crying for welfare.

[TheDoyler23]

Originally posted by Mooney
Factor out the supposed 25% that were Washington area fans.

Then factor out the NYY and BoSox fans (although they are not going away anytime in the near future).

Now we are down to the hard core O's fans, who obviously follow the team win or lose. Unfortunately that number, whatever it is, is apparently not enough to support the team financially for the long term. Especially without the typical Baltimore front runner fans (notice I am not including the hard core fans that do exist) that only show up when they are winning.

Thats why Angelos is crying for welfare.

Of the supposed 25% that came from Washington, there is no guarentee that the Nats will claim all or even most of them. I'm from Washington and I'm sticking to the O's.

Again, the Sox and Yanks have HUGE fan bases. When the Nats have 10k Phillies and Braves fans there 10 times and year, you'll see it too.

All teams have frontrunner fans.

Angelos isn't gettinw welfare, he's getting a minimun franchise value and minimum revenue. That min revenue is pretty much a laughably low figure anyway.

[Mooney]

Originally posted by TheDoyler23
Of the supposed 25% that came from Washington, there is no guarentee that the Nats will claim all or even most of them. I'm from Washington and I'm sticking to the O's.

Again, the Sox and Yanks have HUGE fan bases. When the Nats have 10k Phillies and Braves fans there 10 times and year, you'll see it too.

All teams have frontrunner fans.

Angelos isn't gettinw welfare, he's getting a minimun franchise value and minimum revenue. That min revenue is pretty much a laughably low figure anyway.


I was an Orioles fan for 30+ years. Got Boog Powells autograph when I was 6 watching the O's scrimmage Navy. Bobby Grich was my favorite player growing up. Rhino and Brother Low were my favorites when I was in college. Always loved Brooks, but thought Belanger didn't get enough credit. Did you know that you could bring beer into Memorial Stadium, as long as it wasn't in bottles/cans? Good times.

Lived in Pasadena/Severna Park for 10 years and saw many games in Balt. All of my 5 sons first professional baseball games were at OPACY. My 5 year old still roots for the O's.

But in that time, I have been called a "wine and cheese, cell phone" fan by the Baltimore media. I have heard how the Redskins and their fans suck from the Baltimore fans. I would punch Nasty Nester in the face if he ever said his bullsh!t in person to me (I am admittedly thin skinned about the 'Skins). Now PGA wants to deprive me of seeing my hometown team on TV unless he gets paid.

I was going to try and root for both. But now I guarantee the Nats will claim me. And I am not alone.

Regarding the Yankees fan base. Wasn't it as recent as the early 90's that the Mets were outdrawing the Yanks? What changed? A winning product. Led by a homegrown Derek Jeter.

Of course all teams have frontrunner fans. My point is that there simply is not enough hard core O's fans to carry the load while they are losing, without DC area fans.

I am not going to argue with you regarding Angelos the ambulance chaser anymore. Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree. But the market determines value in our society.

Just wondering though....ever wear your Redskin hat/jersey/whatever to a Baltimore game? Baseball or football?

[TheDoyler23]

Originally posted by Mooney
Just wondering though....ever wear your Redskin hat/jersey/whatever to a Baltimore game? Baseball or football?

No, that would be odd. If I'm @ a Redskins game, I wear a Redskins hat. If I'm @ an O's game, I'll wear a O's hat and if I'm at a Maryland game, I'll wear a Terps hat.

The thing that is also weird is when a person wears gear of a 3rd team. I was at an O's - Yankees game and a guy next to me was wearing a A's hat. Who is dressing this guy?

[aejm1400]

Yeah, I'm usually wearing the team I'm going to see when I'm at a game too.

The deal Angelos will probably end up with will probably be one where he or the next owner never really sees any money.

As far as not rooting for the O's based off what a media person said, that is just nuts. Maybe it's just me, but i don't put alot of stock into what many writers say about fans. I would hate to read about what they think of a fan of the O's who lives in Nebraska. Hell, if I still lived in Maryland they probably would have teased me for being in Kent County for that matter.

I'm a O's fan reguardless of owner or players. If I lived in the area you bet your ass I would have season tickets. But I would probably catch a couple of games in DC too.

Either way, I want to see both tems do well. I know I would love to see a batlle of the beltway World Series someday.