The sporting news: If only football planets would align this way

[SkinsHokieFan]

This would be fun

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=96683

If only the football planets would align this way
May 31, 2006

So since my mailbox is clogged from angry -- take your pick -- Memphis, Southern Miss, Marshall, UAB, etc., etc., fans concerning my push for the Big East to add Central Florida, I may as well throw out the dream list. If you know what I mean. My dream BCS conferences (football only; don't give a flip about hoops. Sorry, Mike D.):

SEC

East

Florida
Florida State
Georgia
Georgia Tech
Tennessee
Kentucky

West

Alabama
Auburn
LSU
Mississippi
Mississippi State
Louisville

ACC

Atlantic

West Virginia
Maryland
Marshall
Clemson
South Carolina
Miami

Coastal

Virginia
Virginia Tech
Vanderbilt
Duke
North Carolina
NC State

Big East

Pitt
Penn State
Notre Dame
Syracuse
Rutgers
Boston College
UConn
South Florida
Central Florida

Big Ten

Michigan
Ohio State
Purdue
Minnesota
Michigan State
Indiana
Iowa
Missouri
Wisconsin
Illinois
Northwestern

Big 12

North

Nebraska
Colorado
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Baylor

South

Texas
Texas AM
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Arkansas

Pac-12

USC
UCLA
Washington
Washington State
Arizona
Arizona State
Oregon
Oregon State
Stanford
California
BYU
Utah

Some quick thoughts:

SEC East: How can Florida and Florida State be in separate conferences? And Georgia-Georgia Tech? The last game of the season with the SEC East on the line in two bitter rivalries. Oh, the humanity.

SEC West: Arkie should've been with the Big 12 all along; Louisville is a nice southern sub for the Hogs.

ACC Atlantic: a round-robin of three-team schools that really don't have much affection for the other (Maryland, Marshall and West Virginia) and a three-team parlay of power, money and facilities (Miami, South Carolina, Clemson).

ACC Coastal: I still don't understand why Duke, UNC and NC State are currently separated. Not in my world, pal.

Big East: Well, of course Pitt and Penn State are in the same conference. And Notre Dame would top it off perfectly. A beefy, bulky Big East. I love it.

Big Ten: Missouri is a Big Ten school if there ever was one -- both in sports and with overbearing, obnoxious academic types who think they're God's gift to the world. Other than that, I love Mizzou.

Big 12: The South Division. Need I say more?

Pac-10: The league adds a vibrant television market and the two best non-BCS teams in the biz (on-field and marketing).

[Diggs]

That would be in a perfect world no doubt. It'll be a cold day in hell before Notre Dame football joins a conference, especially now that they got their swagger back. They have their own network for Crissake's, and split their bowl money ONE way. The interesting ideas are for the BIG EAST to force them to "join 100% or take a hike"... the problem with that is ND has a lot of the bargaining... sorry.. but i digress..

[hokie4redskins]

WVU and Marshall in the ACC??

:laugh:

[Diggs]

WVU and Marshall in the ACC??

:laugh:

I guess his argument is it could become a "natural rivalry," now that is :laugh:. Just like Texas and Baylor are rivals. :rolleyes:

WVU's main rival is PITT. Always has been and always will be (a couple modern era rivals started up including va tech and md, maybe new one starting with Louisville).

[EersSkins05]

I guess it really is June...

I really hope you all realize what a space-filling, moronic column this is...

[Major Harris]

I guess it really is June...

I really hope you all realize what a space-filling, moronic column this is...

am i in the stadium?

[Inxsive]

I guess it really is June...

I really hope you all realize what a space-filling, moronic column this is...


and this post is?????????????

[mjah]

WVU and Marshall in the ACC??
I was wondering the same thing.

There were a couple of folks who were looking at WVU that way, but I think ultimately the academic reputation, market size and qualitative "fit" dictated that other schools get the nod.

[Major Harris]

I was wondering the same thing.

There were a couple of folks who were looking at WVU that way, but I think ultimately the academic reputation, market size and qualitative "fit" dictated that other schools get the nod.
i find it funny that academic reputation is pimped in the acc, as if people give a rats ass about academics when talking athletic departments and their finances.......
anyway, you say fit......i don't think bc is a good fit for the big east. georgraphically, and rivalry-wise, vtech and miami made sense, bc does not.

[SkinsHokieFan]

i find it funny that academic reputation is pimped in the acc, as if people give a rats ass about academics when talking athletic departments and their finances.......
anyway, you say fit......i don't think bc is a good fit for the big east. georgraphically, and rivalry-wise, vtech and miami made sense, bc does not.


The academic argument was used by the north carolina 4 in trying to keep VT out of the ACC initially

I am with you here MH, I think its silly, but you ask people from UVA,UNC, Wake Forest, Duke, its a big deal

Of course, they let FSU in over a decade ago, soooo....

[Diggs]

i find it funny that academic reputation is pimped in the acc, as if people give a rats ass about academics when talking athletic departments and their finances.......
anyway, you say fit......i don't think bc is a good fit for the big east. georgraphically, and rivalry-wise, vtech and miami made sense, bc does not.

Bingo!
However, you think BC geographically fits in the Atlantic Coast Conference?
Remember the old logo for the ACC...now they have all those states and then Boston, Ma way up top. :laugh:
To me, BC has always been one of those irrelevant football programs. Not bad, not great. You almost forget they are even there. People are now saying they will challenge for the ACC title? They said the same while they played in the Big East. Ho-hum.

[mjah]

i find it funny that academic reputation is pimped in the acc, as if people give a rats ass about academics when talking athletic departments and their finances.......
For the most part, you're correct. There is a basic standard, though.

I saw Florida State mentioned. They actually made the cut -- evidence that the bar is low, but it's there.

[hokie4redskins]

The academic argument was used by the north carolina 4 in trying to keep VT out of the ACC initially

I am with you here MH, I think its silly, but you ask people from UVA,UNC, Wake Forest, Duke, its a big deal

Of course, they let FSU in over a decade ago, soooo....

I disagree.

Those initial doubts on our academic credibility were based on faulty presumptions and were quickly dismissed after ACC officials actually began visiting Virginia Tech as expansion became more realistic.

My years at Tech were during the construction boom and I left the semester the final products were all unveiled. I'm not even certain of the names of the new buildings, etc., but I read that ACC officials were astounded at VT's technological capabilities, research grants flooding the university, and all-around academic atmosphere.

Indeed, it is VERY important. Besides the political pressure involved with UVA and Warner, resistance toward VT inclusion all but stopped after the visits by ACC officials.

Quite honestly, I'm stoked about the newfound and expanding academic credibility VT has had since our inclusion into the ACC. Yes, I love football, but I love my University first and foremost and the benefits we reap academically along with major funds flowing athletically, VT is just getting started. The ACC realized this once they admitted us.

[Major Harris]

I disagree.

Those initial doubts on our academic credibility were based on faulty presumptions and were quickly dismissed after ACC officials actually began visiting Virginia Tech as expansion became more realistic.

My years at Tech were during the construction boom and I left the semester the final products were all unveiled. I'm not even certain of the names of the new buildings, etc., but I read that ACC officials were astounded at VT's technological capabilities, research grants flooding the university, and all-around academic atmosphere.

Indeed, it is VERY important. Besides the political pressure involved with UVA and Warner, resistance toward VT inclusion all but stopped after the visits by ACC officials.

Quite honestly, I'm stoked about the newfound and expanding academic credibility VT has had since our inclusion into the ACC. Yes, I love football, but I love my University first and foremost and the benefits we reap academically along with major funds flowing athletically, VT is just getting started. The ACC realized this once they admitted us.



well, you can champion the academic successes of vtech. that's admirable. i still say academics had zero to do w/ expansion.

tell me, though.....how does one compare schools academically? and if you looked into it enough, i think you'd find that wvu is not as far down on the academic ladder as the stereotypes would have you believe.

[Major Harris]

Bingo!
However, you think BC geographically fits in the Atlantic Coast Conference?

re-read my post. i think they're an awful fit and further proof that money (the NE tv market) played an almost exclusive role in expansion.

[hokie4redskins]

well, you can champion the academic successes of vtech. that's admirable. i still say academics had zero to do w/ expansion.

tell me, though.....how does one compare schools academically? and if you looked into it enough, i think you'd find that wvu is not as far down on the academic ladder as the stereotypes would have you believe.

Academics obviously weren't the catalyst, but to say academics had "zero" to do with it is wrong. Did the ACC originally pursue BC and Cuse for their stellar football programs? Obviously not. But Cuse and BC opened valuable markets, or so the ACC thought initially, while meeting academic standards the ACC covets. It wasn't until VT proved its academic rep that the naysayers shut their yaps.

If it was strictly football dollars, VT would've been a no-brainer given our success and pull on ESPN the past 6 years. I mean, come on, Cuse and BC to boost football?? Please. But there were probably hundreds of factors that determined ACC expansion, and academics being a major one. Regardless of what ESPN may think, these are, after all, academic institutions we're talking about here.

To answer your other question: I don't know. Admission standards? State funding? Alumni funding? Grant funding? I wasn't implying WVU doesn't have good academic standards. You're probably right. Frankly, I don't know jack squat about WVU other than the fact their fans are a bunch of schmuck rednecks ;) and we've owned you in football the past decade. :D

I'd imagine the locale (though WVU would've been a better fit than B Friggin' C) and the nasty rep (don't shoot the messenger, WVU fans have a bad rep, this is fact) hurts WVU more than its academic rep. I'm speculating though so I don't know why WVU got left out. In the end, I think it worked out for the best for everyone involved........'cept 'Cuse, they got screwed.

:laugh:

[Major Harris]

Academics obviously weren't the catalyst, but to say academics had "zero" to do with it is wrong.

ok, on a scale of 1 to 100, i'll give you a .23.


Did the ACC originally pursue BC and Cuse for their stellar football programs? Obviously not.
no, money.
the NE tv market.

the fact that they have historically solid football programs and pretty damn good bball programs doesn't hurt either. ;)

[SkinsHokieFan]

I still hate the academic argument when discussing college football

A very Wahooish thing to do

[PleaseBlitz]

I thought it went down like this:

The ACC wanted to expand and needed the teams. Miami was the no-brainer, BC was added to expand the ACC's footprint (read: Get the ACC on TV in the northeast/new england) and VT was added because the powers that be wanted the UVA/VT rivalry in 1 conference, especially the Virginia State government, and the ACC had no problems adding a damn good football program. I dont think academics factored in anywhere. It was about $$$$$, just like everything else.

Overly simplistic, but accurate, no?

[Major Harris]

I still hate the academic argument when discussing college football

A very Wahooish thing to do
is hokie4 a closet wahoo? :whoknows:

[hokie4redskins]

A very Wahooish thing to do

Dude, whatever.

If you all want to think that academic considerations didn't come into play whatsoever, you're welcome to, even though you'd be wrong.

You said yourself the NC 4 didn't want VT for academic reasons until their reservations were quelled by official visits. But I guess academics didn't come into play, huh? And I suppose Governor Warner wasn't considering the best interests of an ACADEMIC institution within his Commonwealth?

:rolleyes:

And yes, I know the almighty dollar was the inspiration of the ACC expansion brain-child, but dismissing the academic factor altogether is asinine and you know it. But understanding the importance of the academic factors and other politics in play during this fiasco three years ago, I must be a closet UVA fan?

Again..........whatever.

[Major Harris]

Dude, whatever.


i've located the nerve. strike at will. :laugh:

[SkinsHokieFan]

I thought it went down like this:

The ACC wanted to expand and needed the teams. Miami was the no-brainer, BC was added to expand the ACC's footprint (read: Get the ACC on TV in the northeast/new england) and VT was added because the powers that be wanted the UVA/VT rivalry in 1 conference, especially the Virginia State government, and the ACC had no problems adding a damn good football program. I dont think academics factored in anywhere. It was about $$$$$, just like everything else.

Overly simplistic, but accurate, no?

It originally was going to be Cuse, BC and Miami

As you said Miami the no-brainer. Cuse was for the NYC market and BC was for the northeast market. 12 teams also meant an ACC Championship game which brings in TV and sponsorship dollars. Both Cuse and BC are strong academic AND basketball schools so besides the obvious geographic bizzaro world, it made sense

VT ended up getting in because of this. Duke and UNC were strongly OPPOSED to exapansion in any case, thus leaving the ACC short of the votes required to expand. With this, Governor Warner forced the hand of UVA president John Casteen, basically saying no expansion without VT

Thusly the first round of the expansion ended up being VT and Miami during the summer of 2003, with BC being voted in later that fall

Hokie4Skins is absolutley correct in stating that once the ACC officials visited VT a lot of concerns were aleviated, both in regards to academics as well as how well the athletics department is run, in regard to finances, compliance and Title IX.

So basically, had Duke or UNC voted FOR expansion in the first place, governor Warner would have had no way of forcing Casteen's hand, and VT would have been left out in the cold and out of a conference which makes perfect sense for VT in every way (geography, natural rivals, distance, etc)

Yes VT's standing has continued to grow in academic circles in regards to funding, grants, and the riddiculous amount of construction and academic buildings that were added in my 4 years to the campus, as well as a rise in the US News and World Report

However for the basis of a football discussion, I really could care less about academics when it comes to what happens between the white lines. Obviously it does have an impact with regard to players qualifying and staying eligible (i.e UVA has one hell of a time keeping players eligible) but it comes down to what Frank Beamer said in early 2002, after UVA signed one of the best classes in that nation and it looked like VT didn't.

"We'll take ours and play theirs and we'll see what happens"

[hokie4redskins]

i've located the nerve. strike at will. :laugh:

:laugh:

Yeah, don't call me a Hoo, please.

[mjah]

SkinsHokieFan got the story correct. It was Warner who forced the issue.

To be fair: While visits made the ACC folks realize that it would not be some Wagnerian nightmare to admit VT, the glowing reports were also driven by the fact that they basically had no other option at that point. If the ACC wanted Miami and BC, they would have to take VT as well, thanks to UNC's idiotic gambit to follow dook down the road to perdition and Warner's very shrewd effort to force everyone to show their cards.

So for a short time there, the ACC had this situation where the following schools did not particularly want VT in the conference...

Maryland
Georgia Tech
FSU
dook
UNC
Wake
NC State
Clemson

...The following eventual ACC schools did not particularly care whether VT was in the conference or not...

BC
Miami

...And the following ACC school did want VT in the conference:

Virginia (staring down the barrel of Daddy Warner's 12-gauge)


But VT was in regardless. So with no option but to make the situation look as good as possible, the ACC folks started talking up VT's very capable athletic department as if it walked on water. It was -- and is -- very good, but it had to look fan-damn-tastic for the spit-and-polish expansion image the ACC was desperately trying to salvage at the time.

Ironically, one of the "official" attempts to discount Warner's influence was to claim that the ACC was afraid Miami wouldn't be interested unless VT was offered too. This fell apart when it became obvious that Miami couldn't have cared less one way or another.

Now, with all that said, adding VT has turned out well for the conference. Their basketball team has stepped it up, football remains strong, they're aligned with a conference that shares their rising academic standards, and I have to imagine they're dragging in more money now than they were before, which has to make them happy. Obviously it will take years to see how everything shakes out fully, but so far it's working out better than I expected when I hopped online for some sports news and said, "Virginia WHAT? Governor WHO? WTF?!?"

So as it is, I really can't complain about having basically the Big East's two best football programs in the ACC. It makes things harder for my guys, but you have to face the best -- from your conference and from the other guy's -- to be the best.

With that said -- and I'll draw a bunch of fire from both sides for this one -- if WVU had better qualifying academics, a bigger market and had joined instead of VT, I think the ACC would be in basically the same enviable position.

But, time will tell.

[Major Harris]

With that said -- and I'll draw a bunch of fire from both sides for this one -- if WVU had better qualifying academics, a bigger market and had joined instead of VT, I think the ACC would be in basically the same enviable position.

But, time will tell.
you won't draw much fire from me. i'm just curious as to how you compare academics. they didn't teach us that at wvu. ;)

twice i've seen tech fans talk about the construction boom in blacksburg. i'm sure you haven't noticed, so i'll tell you, it has/ is happening in morgantown too. not sure about official "academic rankings", but i know just in the general public, wvu is vastly underrated academically.

and the bigger market thing.......not many teams fans travel better than wvu's. tv wise, i guess we're not a huge draw outside of the state, but then again, we're on tv a lot this upcoming year, and last year, so we're doing something right.

[EersSkins05]

you won't draw much fire from me. i'm just curious as to how you compare academics. they didn't teach us that at wvu. ;)

twice i've seen tech fans talk about the construction boom in blacksburg. i'm sure you haven't noticed, so i'll tell you, it has/ is happening in morgantown too. not sure about official "academic rankings", but i know just in the general public, wvu is vastly underrated academically.

and the bigger market thing.......not many teams fans travel better than wvu's. tv wise, i guess we're not a huge draw outside of the state, but then again, we're on tv a lot this upcoming year, and last year, so we're doing something right.

Similarly, I'm having a hard time understanding the supposed academic perils that WVU is facing. The two programs that create academic problems at any school are football and men's basketball. However, since the Rodriguez/Beilein hirings, academics have been a main point of emphasis in both programs at WVU. (For example, every single starter of last year's WVU bball team either has their degree now, or will with summer credits this summer, and both Chris Henry and Jason Gwaltney- the #1 running back prospect in the US- were booted from the football team for academic problems.)

But I'll completely agree that WVU's market would play a role in any expansion debate. It was noted several times during the Sugar Bowl that the entire STATE of WV had a 1.5 million population, while Atlanta itself had about 3 million. (We still managed to fill about a third of the stadium against Georgia in their own back yards, though.)

[EersSkins05]

and this post is?????????????

If you can't see what the writer was trying to accomplish with his column, I can't help you here.

It's a filler piece. That's about it.

[PleaseBlitz]

With that said -- and I'll draw a bunch of fire from both sides for this one -- if WVU had better qualifying academics, a bigger market and had joined instead of VT, I think the ACC would be in basically the same enviable position.



Again, i think people drastically overrate the role of academics in this equation. WVU's academics are pretty darn good, and being friends with as many VT alums as I am, I doubt that there is a substantive difference.

This expansion IS/WAS all about money. WVU has a smaller market than VT, BC, hell, probably every top 20 team in the nation last year. Thats and the power play by the state government of Virginia drove this. Thats it.

Just like everything else, its always about money.

[mjah]

When I refer to academics, I'm not talking about student-athlete academics but rather perceptions of the universities as a whole. Word of mouth and US News didn't do WVU any favors on that front.

Ultimately, it is all about money. That's the reality of it. The ACC expanded for two reasons: survival (#1) and money (#2). But there has to be some criteria for admission beyond money, or you'd see a different ACC. The dooks, UVAs and UNCs made it clear with their votes that there are at least some academic standards to be upheld in this conference. And given that there truly is a certain cache associated with the image of a conference full of good, well rounded schools, academics had to be a consideration. It was a real constraint for expansion.

I imagine that WVU probably is seeing a construction boom. But so are other schools. For example, I can tell you that Maryland has absolutely exploded over the past fifteen years, and if anything the development on its campus is speeding up for the next ten or fifteen. The master construction plan is stunning. Construction and improvement these days are as much about simply keeping up as they are about catching up. I don't know how far it can or will go, but if you aren't building you're falling behind. Building has become the new standing still.

Which, again, requires: more money.