Thanks Justin- I'll try & watch them on Saturdays....appreciate this thread as always!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukes and Skins
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Thanks Justin- I'll try & watch them on Saturdays....appreciate this thread as always!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukes and Skins
Our passing offense is high ranked due to:Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelgreenie
RGIII
Kyle's scheme and playcalling.
When RGIII starts slipping a bit, or Kyle calls a less than stellar game, then you see how (not) good our WRs are. They are not that talented. Sure the WR position tends to develop slow, and guys like Hank and Aldrick have their strengths. But our WRs have had chances to make big plays, and have not done it. A star-quality WR catches that deep ball from RGIII yesterday. A star-quality TE catches up to that ball RGIII slightly overthrew (Davis catches that for 50 yards imo). A star quality WR finds a way to haul that pass Robinson dropped, armbar and all. The ball hit him in his body.
Looking at their catch rate is misleading. What kind of catches are they being given the opportunity to make? Kyle has been running a quick strike, short-intermediate passing game, and has a very accurate short-intermediate thrower throwing to them. They're not being asked to make big plays down the field - why? RGIII is one of the best deep-ball prospects the game has ever seen. Could it be that our WRs outside Moss are that bad at converting big-play opportunities?
I think if I were an NFL GM, I'd be thinking about whether he's too young to be my head coach of the future.
Furthermore, investing in the secondary (unless secondary is BPA) has it's own problems - our defense is the way it is because it is coached horrendously. Yes, there are real talent issues, but the offense has real talent issues. It's a top 10 unit in the NFL still last I checked. A great defensive mind can overcome talent issues, or at least mitigate them. Imagine the Jets with someone other than Rex Ryan coaching them - it's not pretty. That unit is so depleted yet they're still middle of the pack. So adding secondary talent would seem to have diminishing returns (getting an awful unit to be an average unit) seeing you could do the same thing by just changing coordinators, while adding offensive talent would propel us to Saints/Patriots/Packers territory offensively.
Also it's so hard to find impact DBs at the moment; how many truly impact CBs are there right now? How many truly impact safeties? And can you project any of the talent available at our pick to be "impact"? I can fairly safely project Craig Ertz, Monte Ball, Oday Aboushi, Jake Matthews, Cordarelle Patterson, Tyler Eifert, among others, to be impact players, or at least more safely than I can project Carrington Byndom or Matt Elam.
You're argument amounts to begging or excusing away the passing games actual production. Sure Griffin and Kyle are responsible for the success of the passing game but so is every other QB and OC combination in the NFL.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Robert Griffin Experience
Saying our WRs are not talented is an empty statement when you don't support it in terms of the units production or lack there of. In what context are they not talented compared to what other unit are they not talented?
So sure you can point out one play where our 5th WR didn't make a play. But, I'm certain that Garcon, Moss and Morgan make that play and Hankerson probably makes that play so the question becomes why was Aldrick targeted on that pass attempt? Which goes back to my point: Our WRs haven't even settled in and the targets have been spread around to their detriment and the passing game is still very basic. (and compared to the mistakes the DBs have made a drop by our 5th WR is rather inconsequential)
We do not at this point know what our WRs will become but their current production supports that they're holding up their end despite all their obstacles and the unit will only get better as they gain experience and when their best player returns.(Garcon)
The question wasn't whether the receivers were stars. The discussion about the WRs is in the context of draft priority and specifically compared to the secondary/DBs.
---------- Post added November-5th-2012 at 04:29 PM ----------
This is a completely different discussion. But, if you're really asking my opinion why there aren't more downfield attempts is because the offense is probably more concerned with efficiency and ball control then big plays in the passing game and that approach is arguably justifiable based on the defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by TRGE
And without the stats how can we know/say anything definitive about the downfield passing game other then we don't throw downfield often? We could be very good in our limited attempts or not? Without the stats its all conjecture.
Not sure who/what you're talking about with your last sentence about the GM...
---------- Post added November-5th-2012 at 04:39 PM ----------
Investing in any position and finding impact players at any position is difficult the arguement applies to WRs just as it applies to DB. The notion that you or anyone can know which players will be 'impact' is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Robert Griffin Experience
All anyone can do is try our best to make an accurate assessment of any draftable prospect they're looking at.
Saying the defense has real talent issues then saying the offense has real talent issues when the units are at polar opposites of nearly every measurable metric is imo akin to putting your head in the sand. And getting an awful defense unit to be average is far more likely outcome then getting a good unit to be great. And if the S were merely league average to the point where they didn't blow simple every game assignments would have probably won at least a couple of games if not more (Giants, Bengals, Panthers 80 yard busted coverage).
So how again in light of the units production, injuries and youth is WR anywhere near in need of the same level of upgrade as DB in a self evaluation of this team?
They're not talented compared to the average WR corps in the NFL, let alone the top-tier WR corps. The stats are misleading, because Kyle's scheme gets WRs open at an alarming pace. But when we talk about the stuff that makes talented WRs - hands, body control, run after catch, ability to get open, our WRs sans Garcon and Davis are average at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelgreenie
Hankerson makes that play? When he's made that play maybe once this season?Quote:
So sure you can point out one play where our 5th WR didn't make a play. But, I'm certain that Garcon, Moss and Morgan make that play and Hankerson probably makes that play so the question becomes why was Aldrick targeted on that pass attempt? Which goes back to my point: Our WRs haven't even settled in and the targets have been spread around to their detriment and the passing game is still very basic. (and compared to the mistakes the DBs have made a drop by our 5th WR is rather inconsequential)
Maybe they're spreading around the targets because our WRs aren't good enough. How many times has Morgan made that play where he goes up and gets a ball in the air and pulls it in for the TD? He's fairly decent at getting open, but usually his targets aren't contested at all.
You're starting from the premise that our WRs are talented and it must be Kyle not feeding them and allowing them to settle in. Maybe it's that our WRs just can't be trusted to make difficult plays so Kyle's giving them easy plays and short-intermediate passes?
Morgan, Hankerson and Moss aren't really holding up their end. They're being schemed open, they're not getting open consistently on their own. But as the talent base erodes, it becomes harder and harder to do that.Quote:
We do not at this point know what our WRs will become but their current production supports that they're holding up their end despite all their obstacles and the unit will only get better as they gain experience and when their best player returns.(Garcon)
Which then becomes "We need DBs, so should we take nonimpact DBs over impact offensive players despite our needs on offense being fairly glaring on their own?"Quote:
The question wasn't whether the receivers were stars. The discussion about the WRs is in the context of draft priority and specifically compared to the secondary/DBs
Every point you make about the WRs applies even more the our DBs. Seriously. You wanna talk about comparing each unit WR vs DB to an average NFL unit? lol, our pass coverage is league worst. This is a fact.
Our WRs are not league worst. Also a fact.
Everything else is opinion and until you can support it with something factual there's really nothing to discuss.
I get it, you don't like our WRs. But that doesn't mean their worse then our DBs.
And this what is commonly refered to as a strawman. And it has nothing to do with any point I've made.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Robert Griffin Experience
I dont know whats wrong with him, but he looks absolutely terrible this year. He looks lost playing CB and he's not fast enough to run with the traditionally fast receiverQuote:
Originally Posted by HighSteppin'
i agree w/ bpa, but we absolutely have to address RT, S, or CB w/ our pick unless we address them all in FA some how. But I do love Tavon Austin, he would be awesome in our system and an ideal replacement for banks or moss. He could be a Desean Jackson or even Wes Welker clone.
He wasn't fast last year either. He belongs at safety, similar to what happened with Jairus Byrd when he came out of Oregon or perhaps Malcolm Jenkins, he wasn't fast enough to play corner in the league, but all he did was make plays in college. His interceptions made people jump all over him as a prospect, but he was never a burner. As such, he's a solid tackler, has great instincts and elite hands for the position. He could certainly play an ed reed-type centerfielder safety, which is what we need, as we have plenty of in the box types. I'm loving Phillip Thomas as a prospect as well, and would like to see him at ss and Amerson at fs. Get those two players in the 2nd and 3rd and pick up an FA corner and our secondary would then become a very solid unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukes and Skins
Then give me Kenjon Barner in the 4th and I think we've added quite a few playmakers to the roster.
I've been reading up on Amerson and watching him quite a bit. I think he's fast enough to play corner. He's got outstanding long speed and can easily run with receivers on the outside. His click and close ability is good enough and he can break on balls in a hurry.
He's got rare ball skills. He literally has a wide receivers skill set. He can high point passes and attacks the ball in the air. And then he can gear up very quickly after he's got the ball for nice return capability.
He's also a physical player that can tackle and reroute receivers at the line.
He has all the tools to be an elite outside starting CB in the NFL. He was valued so high after last season because he's got all of the elite tools plus his individual play was spectacular. I think he's easily got the best skillset of any DB in the class and has the highest upside by a solid margin. But I would take Milliner and Banks over him, they're considerably cleaner. Rhodes probably is too, and he's got high quality tools too.
Amerson's problems are clearly a result of bad technique and lapses in concentration. I think those things could be correctable. I like everything I've read about his intangibles: confident kid, super competitive, a leader, comes from a nice family.
I don't think there is any issue with his physical tools. I think he's probably our best chance at getting an elite talent at DB outside of the first round of the draft this offseason.
Marquess Wilson got kicked off his team. Not good, but Mike Leach is also a huge *******, so I doubt Wilson is entirely to blame.
The kid is pretty dang good. If he slipped into a mid-late round because of this, I would take a chance on him. Definite potential as an outside starting WR.
Marquess could be our missing piece in offense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ILOiSfpEHUg
Marquess Wilson suspended from Washington State, may have quit the team.
I'm wondering how much this will hurt his draft stock ?
Hey Guys - Happy Election Day... Get out there and vote. Oh yea, and here's my updated value board for DB's
CB
1st round
Jr Xavier Rhodes (Florida State)
Jr David Amerson (North Carolina State)
Jr Dee Milliner (Alabama)
Sr Johnthan Banks (Mississippi State)
RS So Bradley Roby (Ohio State)
2nd round
Jr Justin Gilbert (Oklahoma State)
Sr Jordan Poyer (Oregon State)
Sr Terry Hawthorne (Illinois)
Jr Carrington Byndom (Texas)
3rd round
Sr Desmond Trufant (Washington)
Sr Micah Hyde (Iowa)
Sr Leon McFadden (San Diego State)
S
1st round
Sr T.J. McDonald (USC)
2nd round
Jr Eric Reed (LSU)
Sr Robert Lester (Alabama)
Jr Matt Elam (Florida)
Sr Kenny Vaccaro (Texas)
3rd round
Sr Bacarri Rambo (Georgia)
Sr Shawn Williams (Georgia)
---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 12:56 PM ----------
My two underrated players i'd love to have on this team!
CB Leon McFadden (San Diego State)
S Phillip Thomas (Fresno State) Currently a 4th round selection if the draft were today
---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 01:21 PM ----------
Markus Wheaton, 6'1 182 (also a team captain ;))- could be a sleeper WR, young Santana Moss clone. Someone to look at as a possible #2 or slot guy. He's a speedster with sure hands and kick returner... especially if Aldrick doesn't work out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEfNoK4BsVs
---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 01:42 PM ----------
Dukes or whoever, how do you feel about Reid Fragel out of Ohio State? Kids got a lot of potential as a quick RT but needs to work on his power and put some weight on that 6'8 frame. He's a converted TE which woulds provide versatility in the run game. I don't hold him even close to Fluker, Lewan, Joekel, etc. but he could be a sleeper in the mid rounds and potential starter with the right OT coach. More coaches are loving that taller, Nate Solder type. How does he fit in the ZBS?
How about Ray Ray Armstrong, his draft stock is free falling, this guy was supposed to be a 1st round pick.
"Armstrong is fast, big and athletic. He has tons of physical talent, but he has not translated that into a dominant on-field performance yet. If Armstrong lands with the right coaching staff, he could be a steal due to having a high ceiling. It was imperative that Armstrong stay out of trouble and productive as a senior to avoid the third day - that was as a Hurricane though. Since he wasn't able to do that, it is difficult to project him going in the top 100." Link
He'd be a risk/reward player in the 7th or possibly undrafted but he's not even in the top 10 for me when it comes to SSQuote:
Originally Posted by FrFan
One of the few high risk/ high reward guys I can think of in this draft. If he works out then he's a starting SS, if not he can be very, very badQuote:
Originally Posted by SemperFi Skins